Small Subwoofer?

[Redbeard]

I just put together an entry level audiophile H/T and music system comprising of an NAD T753 receiver and a full set of new Focal JM Labs Chorus S speakers. The system sounds incredible with amazing clarity and suprising bass down to 55hz from the 5" in the speakers. The problem is I would like to have more of a bass presence especially with the range down to around 25hz. The problem is that I live in a duplex and do not want to blow the neighbors sox off and get evicted. I am looking for a sub that will produce super tight, fast hitting bass to match the speakers. After listening to Tone Loc's Wild Thing I heard the speakers bottom out horribly on the bass notes and new I seriously lacked a subwoofer.

Don't get me wrong the speakers sound awesome with almost anything that is thrown at them and sometimes I dont even think they need a sub if you can believe that, to make a long story short I am looking for suggestions for a smaller sub that will provide tight, clean fast hitting bass without blowing the roof off. I looked into the matching focal sub but it only goes down to 40hz.

I have considered the Def Tech Pro sub 80, the Hsu Research STF 1, and several small M&K subs like the VX-7 series II. Someone also suggested the Canton AS22.

Anyhelp is greatly appreciated.

[skeptic]

"The problem is I would like to have more of a bass presence especially with the range down to around 25hz. The problem is that I live in a duplex and do not want to blow the neighbors sox off and get evicted. I am looking for a sub that will produce super tight, fast hitting bass to match the speakers."

That is a contradiction. The kind of bass you are looking for WILL blow the neighbor's socks off and you will sooner or later be looking for a new place to live unless you reach an accomodation with them such as what time they will not be around to get annoyed.

Try Parts Express. The Titanic III looks like a winner. If you can spend an hour building a very simple kit, you can save a couple of hundred bucks.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=242#kits

[Redbeard]

True, what I ment was a sub with a smaller amp like the ones I stated. To rephrase: What is the best small sub for music and H/T based on tightness and musicality? My objective is to play the system when he is not home and keep it lower as to not knock his roof off when he is home. I want something that will simply round out my system.

[Eric Z]

You might have considered this already, but just want to be sure. Try not on buy HT equipment on where you live now (especially if you are renting- not sure if you're renting or not). The reason I mention this is what if you buy a smaller sub just to please your neighbors. Then move to a bigger place in the near future. Just my $.02!

Regarding the smaller subs (around 8"). I checked out the Def Tech PS80 and the Canton AS22. I ended up going with the PS80. The Canton was nice, but inferior to the PS80 IMO. I don't know much about the Hsu, but from what I read, it seems pretty nice! Fyi, the PS80 retails for around $350. Please do not pay that price. I got mine for $275 from an authorized dealer. If you have any questions about bargaining, please let me know.

Good luck and enjoy!
Eric

[Redbeard]

Thanks for the info, I just signed a two year lease and landlord lives next door- I hope to be here for a while, I do not mind selling and upgrading my speakers I am a freqeunt ebayer. I am really interested in the PS80 is the base tight? Some have said it is boomy at higher volumes? I used to own a paradigm PDR10 so that is all I have to compare it to, though I have heard many others.

[Eric Z]

From what I've heard the PS80 is pretty sensitive to placement. I've been remodeling for a little while so my HT equipment has been all over. Mine only sounds a little boomy at very high volumes with songs or movies that have loser bass (i.e some R&B or rap).

Remember that this is an entry level sub, so sometimes it's difficult to compare it to others. Make sure you compare apples to apples. Some reviews are negative because it doesn't sound like this $500 or $600 sub. It shouldn't sound like a $500 or $600 because it's only a $300 sub!!

Are you able to demo one at home? If I were to do it again, I would demo a PS80 and some other subs at home before making a final decision. I don't say this because I think it's not performing well; I say this before I want to ensure I'm making the best decision possible. It's also difficult to listen in the retail "showroom" because the odds are the room size and set up isn't exactly as yours at home.

In addition, I didn't have anything to compare the PS80 to. I only had 2 channel before the sub.

Good luck.

[goatspeed]

Take a look at a SVS 25-31pci. It has the kind of bass you are looking for. You'll have to keep it low...but you'll have that with whatever sub you look at, unless it's not very good.

[Redbeard]

Take a look at a SVS 25-31pci. It has the kind of bass you are looking for. You'll have to keep it low...but you'll have that with whatever sub you look at, unless it's not very good.


Thanks all for the info on the subs, PS80 sounds good but like they say its a $300 sub, that is why I was somewhat drawn towards the small M&K's very tight and deep, however some say overpriced. Goat you are absolutely right I am going to keep the volume low around 8 o'clock or so- I just want to add a little low base presence without breaking the bank or blowing the walls out. I looked for the above sub but could not find it on the web site. Anyone want to suggest a good sub that hits fast and tight and can be had for under $500 or so??? My main concern is that they can match the incredible tightness of the Focals.

[goatspeed]

Here's a link: http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pci_25-31.htm

It's a little over your price range, but you can order it and try it knowing you can send it back within 45 days for a full refund. I have a house and a little larger room, I went with the 20-39pc+ and find it to be fast and accurate, sounding perfect with my new Monitor Audio setup.

[Redbeard]

Thanks again.... Hey I recently stumbled across the Athena P2 subwoofer which has gotten excellent reviews- does anyone have any feedback on this before I order it?

[Redbeard]

Goat I like the sounds of the SVS suggestion but I dont think I could get away with having a 30" tall 16" diameter black bass tube sticking up in my living room, though I appreciate the suggestion and mulled it over for quite sometime before reality hit me (wife factor)....

[mtrycraft]

Thanks for the info, I just signed a two year lease and landlord lives next door- I hope to be here for a while, I do not mind selling and upgrading my speakers I am a freqeunt ebayer. I am really interested in the PS80 is the base tight? Some have said it is boomy at higher volumes? I used to own a paradigm PDR10 so that is all I have to compare it to, though I have heard many others.


You have a problem: you want good bass and you live in an apartment.

Buying a small sub with a small amp will not serve you much. It woun't go down to low frequencies that is audible and won't give you the punch you are looking for.

You could get a good sub and just throttle it back. When the complex is empty, you turn it up. You move and you already have a good sub:)

[chimera128]

That's why you use that sub for a bedroom system and upgrade when the time comes =). It's amazing how many times people recommend SVS subs when someone says they are looking for a small subwoofer. Not all of us want a refrigerator-sized (even a beer fridge sized ;)) subwoofer in our living rooms. Now I could understand it if the guy says he wants a good performing cheap subwoofer, but he clearly stated something small that goes to the 25hz range. In terms of blowing out the neighbors, that is when we ellicit the little knob commonly known as "volume". I have no experience with Athena subs, but I would definitely listen to it before you buy it if at all possible. Though reviews can be helpful at best and give you a direction in terms of which subs you might want to add to your list, remember that it is your list and your ears that will have to live with that sub. $300 is $300 and I don't know anyone that would want to have a $300 piece of crap in their living room. If you do decide to go with a Definitive Technology model I would at least get the ProSub 100TL. You should be able to get it for around $350 or so. M.S.R.P. is just a suggestion and I'm sure most of us have never bought our equipment at retail (at least I hope so or I owe the salesperson an apology () =)). Don't be afraid to ask for 20% off, although I would try to find an ad at a local store offering at least 10% or so before you do it. Ultimate Electronics usually runs an ad of at least 10% off Definitive Technology products, and I have been able to negotiate prices down on most other brands of speakers as well. I just haven't bought them. Whatever you end up getting I hope that it fits your needs and brings a smile to your face. Good luck!

[Redbeard]

Thanks for the help gentlemen, I do agree with the suggestions of turning the volume low and then cranking it up when they aren't around. I also like the one of using it in a bedroom system after becasue I am a music nut and love building and listening to systems. These are great suggestions thanks alot....Any subwoofer suggestions are greatly appreciated.

[RGA]

I gotta say I would seriously look at the Titanic Kit mentioned by Skeptic - for what it appears you're getting it is significant for the money - the thing looks like it would take less than an hour to put together - a couple of screws here and there. http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?DID=7&PartNumber=300-762

The woofer alone is $160.00.

If it wasn't for the fact that I would be nailed such high import duty and dollar conversion I would look at this for my eventual home theater system - It also comes with its own parametric EQ which you will need to properly set-up your sub.

[skeptic]

You're scaring me RGA.
You're agreeing with me.
You're taking the same view I am.
You're acting civil towards me.
You're being nice to me.
I don't like that.

(Where are those emoticons when you need them?--Remember Paul Linde's tv commercial for Chemical bank? Sorry, probably before your time.)

[RGA]

You're scaring me RGA.
You're agreeing with me.
You're taking the same view I am.
You're acting civil towards me.
You're being nice to me.
I don't like that.

(Where are those emoticons when you need them?--Remember Paul Linde's tv commercial for Chemical bank? Sorry, probably before your time.)

I agree with a lot of what you have to say as I do with Mrty and Woochifer among others. The sub looks like good value for the dollar - and you can return it within 45 days if you don't like it.

I will be trying kits down the road - because if some 12 year old girl in china can build it then damn it so should I be able to. It's ben 13 years since I've held a soldering iron however.

I have seen $1800.00 Subwoofers that look considerably worse than the Titanic's. Unfortunately it's tough to say how they'll sound - but for home theater all I really would want is bone crushing depth.

[mtrycraft]

I agree with a lot of what you have to say as I do with Mrty and Woochifer among others.

:D



I will be trying kits down the road - because if some 12 year old girl in china can build it then damn it so should I be able to. It's ben 13 years since I've held a soldering iron however.

She probably has more hands on experience though:) She might also have better tools to put it together :)


but for home theater all I really would want is bone crushing depth.

Then you want it large and powerful.
Tom Nousaine has 6 or 8 15" or 18" in the basement with a chimney up to the listeing room:) The chimney had to be highly reinforced as it was buckling:D
Written up in a mag a while back.

[Redbeard]

Does anyone on this post have any experience with the Dayton audio subs? Specifically the titanics? I am particularly interested in how the case looks, Hsu should get a clue and use some gloss for their products rather than that krinkle black crappy finish. Speakers should be like fine furniture....

RGA if i were in the UK I would definately look up MJ Acoustics subs, to bad they don't sell them in the us....

[Woochifer]

As others have pointed out, getting down to 25 Hz and keeping things quiet for next door neighbors is a contradiction in terms. The wavelengths for notes that low are such that they easily travel through walls and interact in unpredictable ways both within your room and as they pass through walls into adjoining areas. A bass note that sounds normal from your listening position could actually sound louder and unbearably boomy next door. That's just the way that room acoustics work. In my house, I use a parametric equalizer to eliminate the room induced peaks at my listening position, but that doesn't stop the bass from sounding much boomier in the kitchen.

As far as which model to go with, there are plenty of very small subwoofers (cubes less than 12") that can still belt out notes that go way deep. REL, Velodyne, and Sunfire among others make tiny subwoofers that can go past 25 Hz. But, these models are very expensive (the Velodynes and Sunfires I believe start around $1,500), and therein lies the rub. In order to get that kind of extension from a small cabinet size, they rely on drivers with very long throws and require very powerful amps to get that decent output. Components that meet those requirements aren't cheap. It's easier to go with a larger cabinet and driver. It will give you the same extension, not require as powerful an amp, and cost less, but you got that large cabinet to deal with.

If you want a "tighter" sounding sub, then you'll probably want to go with a sealed sub because of their generally quicker transient response. Their advantages are that tighter sound, and more extended lows. Their disadvantages are that they are less efficient, the bass begins to drop off sooner than with a ported sub (but declines slower), and they can have higher distortion as the driver excursion increases in the lower frequencies. Those smaller high output subs that I mentioned are all sealed designs. If you're looking for something less expensive, then your range of options is very limited since your price point appears to be around $500. I have one of Adire's $400 Rava subs, which is a 12" sealed sub that has serviceable output well below 25 Hz. However, it is 18" on the outside, which might be too big for what you're looking for.

One option that seems to fit all of your requirements is the $600 Rocket UFW-10. It is a sealed 10" sub with an exterior dimension of 13" and available in a gloss rosewood or maple finish. From what I've read, it has decent extension (not quite as deep as the SVS, Hsu, or Adire options, but still very good) and it looks good.

http://www.av123.com/products_product.php?section=subwoofers&product=1.1

If you're looking at DIY options and looks are a priority, then I suggest that you contact some other sources as well. Acoustic Visions is one of Adire's major resellers and they offer a wide variety of finishes with their cabinets. Of course, the cost escalates once you opt for fancy veneers and better looking finishes.

http://www.acoustic-visions.com/~acoustic/products/subwoofers/enclosures/painting.shtml

And as for why Hsu subs have ugly finishes. The answer is simple -- the majority of people who opt for one of their lower level subs would rather save a few extra bucks than pay more for a fancier finish. The Hsus have a great reputation for how they sound, and for around $350, their performance is what people are looking for. If you want the option for a better looking cabinet, then their $800 VTF-3 model is available in a piano black finish or rosewood veneer. Of course, that will cost you extra.

[mtrycraft]

I am particularly interested in how the case looks, Hsu should get a clue and use some gloss for their products rather than that krinkle black crappy finish. Speakers should be like fine furniture....

....


Well, a speakers finis is indeed an artistic touch to it. Maybe they should offer that option? Would that add to the cost?

[Redbeard]

When looking at the Titanic subwoofers from Parts Express I am confused, what is a parametric equalizer? I notice the 12" which is a bit big for my room but the 10" which is more in my price range and room size does not seem to include this equalizer. Is there any alternative to getting a parametric equalizer and is it absolutely neccessary????

Still Confused as to which sub to by, I would like no more than $500 less is better and smaller cabinet is better 12" square. I have a smaller room 10x12 with hardwood floors and a large brick walled fire place. Sounds travel easy so very high output is not necessary. Sub would be 60/40 for music/movie. Might not even use it on movies if it is to loud.

[RGA]

It helps you position your sub - you can do it by ear but it tales longer - a true parametric EQ would allow you to basically hack off certain frequencies or raise them just like a graphic equalizer. Sort of an EQ for bass frequencies.

It is not truly necessary for home theater - but it would be very handy for music - especially if you're limited to where you can place the sub. I am personally not a fan of matching subs for 2 channel music listening.

[drseid]

>>One option that seems to fit all of your requirements is the $600 Rocket UFW-10. It is a sealed 10" sub with an exterior dimension of 13" and available in a gloss rosewood or maple finish. From what I've read, it has decent extension (not quite as deep as the SVS, Hsu, or Adire options, but still very good) and it looks good.

http://www.av123.com/products_produ...ers&product=1.1>>

I second the Rocket UFW-10 suggestion...

This sub is not going to be the be all, end all for HT super low bass... but it is very musical, and goes down to 25-28 hz nicely.

I will say that the fit and finish is superb, and it looks much better in person than on the av123 website. My mom liked the looks of the sub quite a bit (and she absolutely hates the look of most hi-fi gear).

My dad is using one I bought him with some very large standmount speakers he and I built out of Focal drivers, and the combination for music is quite impressive. Definitely worth consideration for your purposes, IMO.

Another possible option is the ACI Force sub. It is a bit pricey, but ACI makes some great products, and they also look quite nice.

---Dave

[bobhaze]

Check out the Cambridge SoundWorks P500.
http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=spk_subwoofer&item=c1p500zzz&type=store
It's a sealed box with dual 8" woofers on opposing sides. As a result, it doesn't transmit mechanical vibrations into the floor, which can be a great help in an apartment. I don't have this model, but my brother-in law does so I've had lots of opportunities to listen. It's one of the cleanest sounding woofers I've heard and IMHO is more than competitive with a lot of the well known and highly reviewed woofers in just about every area except maximum SPL capability. CSW has an in-home trial period so you can audition it at home where it counts instead of in a store with unknown acoustics and the wrong electronics.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3275&item=5708784627&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

[F1]

Does anyone on this post have any experience with the Dayton audio subs? Specifically the titanics? I am particularly interested in how the case looks, Hsu should get a clue and use some gloss for their products rather than that krinkle black crappy finish. Speakers should be like fine furniture....
....

I actually appreciate that black scratch resistant crinkle finish especially with my active 4yr old. Btw, STF-2 comes in black matte finish and VTF-2 MK2 comes in matte black as well as high gloss, as you wish.

[Redbeard]

It is very hard to make a decision with all these great subs coming through- I like the rocket and Hsu but it is hard to purchase without hearing them. I know they get great reviews and am very tempted on the hype to buy a Hsu???? By far the most hype on any subs is with the Hsu and SVS and that is true in this thread as well.

[Bryan]

To rephrase: What is the best small sub for music and H/T based on tightness and musicality?

Here you are probably looking at either the Rocket UFW-10, ACI's The Force, or the Adire Audio Rava. The companies stand behind the products. Of course, you can also get the owner's opinion and they will try and find a viable solution for you, even it means it isn't a product they sell. (SVS can be the same way.) Used smaller subs from Velodyne, B&W, or Sunfire are worthy of consideration. For new ones, the afformentioned UFW-10, Force, or Rava would be the way to go, IMO. If you were looking towards more of a 50/50 or HT application, the HSU VTF-2 or SVS PB1-ISD would get my vote.

[Redbeard]

One thing I find interesting here is that no one has metioned one of the small M&K subs (VX-7, VX100. K-9, k-10 etc ) which is quite a surprise to me...

Also I love the rocket sub but the price is a bit high at $600- I am leaning toward the Parts Express kit as it seems very good and is cheaper.

[goatspeed]

t's amazing how many times people recommend SVS subs when someone says they are looking for a small subwoofer.

Hehe, well I thought 16" wide and 30" tall was small. Mine is 16" wide and 39" tall and hides behind a chair nicely. 30 inches tall is just a baby SVS.

[Woochifer]

When looking at the Titanic subwoofers from Parts Express I am confused, what is a parametric equalizer? I notice the 12" which is a bit big for my room but the 10" which is more in my price range and room size does not seem to include this equalizer. Is there any alternative to getting a parametric equalizer and is it absolutely neccessary????

Still Confused as to which sub to by, I would like no more than $500 less is better and smaller cabinet is better 12" square. I have a smaller room 10x12 with hardwood floors and a large brick walled fire place. Sounds travel easy so very high output is not necessary. Sub would be 60/40 for music/movie. Might not even use it on movies if it is to loud.

The point that you're missing is the importance of the placement and the room acoustics when it comes to the bass. Compared to the midrange and the highs, the room acoustics dictate what you hear with the bass at least as much as the subwoofer itself. It's THAT important an issue.

The parametric equalizer is one method of correcting for room induced effects. If you listen to a subwoofer in a store and hear that one-note boominess, guess what, most of that is more likely due to the room acoustics and the placement than the subwoofer itself. In a small to medium sized room, the bass wavelengths are long enough so that their reflections can interact with one another and either amplify each other or cancel each other out. If you're getting a peak, then the resulting bass will sound boomy because what gets emphasized is the bass note that hits those specific frequencies where the peaks occur. Keep in mind that room induced problems will affect ALL subwoofers the same way, and if you note that one subwoofer that you bring home sounds boomy, then all subs that you put into that same position will likely also sound boomy.

The role of a parametric EQ is to dial down those large peaks so that what you hear is not totally dominated by those peaks. You want the in-room bass response as even and as full as possible. Having large room-induced peaks ensures that the bass will be uneven, and sound alternately boomy with certain notes and way too low throughout the rest of the bass spectrum. Using a parametric EQ to boost a frequency whose level is too low is typically ineffective since that was likely created by a wave cancellation at the listening position.

It doesn't matter if you get a sub with a parametric EQ built in. You can add an external unit (provided that you're using the subwoofer output from the receiver, and not the speaker outputs), and that will actually give you more flexibility because most parametric EQs that come with subs give you only one filter to work with. In my room, I needed to dial down three very large peaks, and I set up additional EQ filters just to fine tune the bass.

This is confusing indeed, but I think that obsessing about which subwoofer to get without devoting as much brainpower to learning about room acoustics and how to properly place your subwoofer would be a wasted effort.

[This Guy]

If you go with the Partsexpress kit, only get the 12" or higher. The 10" isn't a very good value when you compare it to the Rava at similar prices. The 12" will go about as loud as the Rava, if not a little louder. But the Partsexpress kit does have the Parametric equalizer in it, which I hear is pretty much a necessity in most rooms. With the kits you do obivously get more for your money, because if Velodyne or someone made the sub it would retail for close to a grand. PE also has a discussion board ("ask the pros") and many of them built subs that use that driver that's in the kit.

-Joey

[Woochifer]

If you go with the Partsexpress kit, only get the 12" or higher. The 10" isn't a very good value when you compare it to the Rava at similar prices. The 12" will go about as loud as the Rava, if not a little louder. But the Partsexpress kit does have the Parametric equalizer in it, which I hear is pretty much a necessity in most rooms. With the kits you do obivously get more for your money, because if Velodyne or someone made the sub it would retail for close to a grand. PE also has a discussion board ("ask the pros") and many of them built subs that use that driver that's in the kit.

-Joey

I noticed that the Parts Express 12" Titanic kit sells for $580, while the Rava sells for $400. A Rava plus an outboard parametric EQ would actually cost less than the Titanic kit, and the Rava doesn't need assembly. Unfortunately, both options and other decent ones in the same price range have exterior dimensions larger than 12". That Rocket sub seems to be one of the only options that meets all of the original poster's needs (tight sound, small exterior dimensions, attractive finish).

[Redbeard]

My sentiments exactly woochifer.... Most of the Hsu subs have no condiseration to size even the smallest is quite large. I am really turned on by the Velodyn DD12 but then again I don't have $2500 either. Hsu and SVS are both larger than life, you know this when Hsu sugests using it (VF2) as a coffee table or end table. The Rockit is as close to good as I can come up with but the $600 is almost the same price as the $700 JM Labs Chorus S that I am trying to avoid spending.

My point of haveing a smaller sub was that I have a small 12x15 room with hardwood floors and a close neighbor. I just want the sub to fill in low notes on music. My ceiling for a sub would probably be $400 and size wise would be 13x13x13. I had a PDR 10 which I thought was a bit large.

I have considered the sub below based on reading the many positive reviews here and from stereophile, AV guide and others, so anyone with any experience with this sub please let me know as I will have to buy it without hearing it. Also thanks for all the great suggestions

http://www.store.yahoo.com/rav/atp2such.html

[Woochifer]

My sentiments exactly woochifer.... Most of the Hsu subs have no condiseration to size even the smallest is quite large. I am really turned on by the Velodyn DD12 but then again I don't have $2500 either. Hsu and SVS are both larger than life, you know this when Hsu sugests using it (VF2) as a coffee table or end table. The Rockit is as close to good as I can come up with but the $600 is almost the same price as the $700 JM Labs Chorus S that I am trying to avoid spending.

My point of haveing a smaller sub was that I have a small 12x15 room with hardwood floors and a close neighbor. I just want the sub to fill in low notes on music. My ceiling for a sub would probably be $400 and size wise would be 13x13x13. I had a PDR 10 which I thought was a bit large.

I have considered the sub below based on reading the many positive reviews here and from stereophile, AV guide and others, so anyone with any experience with this sub please let me know as I will have to buy it without hearing it. Also thanks for all the great suggestions

http://www.store.yahoo.com/rav/atp2such.html

That Athena is basically an 8" ported sub that's taller than you want. Since musical tightness is what you specified, that's why I suggested the sealed subs because their quicker transients lend themselves well to that kind of tight sound. Ported subs are more variable in sound quality because it's more difficult to design them properly. If done right, they have their advantages, but if not done right, they can sound downright awful.

At your price range, your options are very limited since you're fixated on the size and design aspects. Either you go with something larger than you want, or uglier than you want, or you pay more. That's really what you're choosing.

[F1]

.... My ceiling for a sub would probably be $400 and size wise would be 13x13x13. I had a PDR 10 which I thought was a bit large...

How'bout $300 Hsu STF-1. It's taller but slimmer. It measures 10x16x19. Going down flat to 32hz. Sorry if I sound like pushing their product, I'm just happy with mine.. Cheers. ;)

[Redbeard]

Your right the Hsu is probably the best value and would be a welcomed addition especially for the price. What you guys are telling me is exactly what my salesman at the local Hi Fi store told me, that I need to spend the money to get what I want.....

[Bryan]

You'll either have to spend more than you want for a new sub or wait for what you want and get a used one. If you want one that is 13" x 13" x 13", is musical, is sealed, powered, and looks good you will pay for what you want. Or you could try building one. However, if you don't want to pay as much you will have to compromise on some of your wants. You'll either compromise dimensions, getting a powered sub, looks, or having a port. Overall, the best compromise is the Rava with a parametric EQ but the one that meets your needs, wants, and desires is the UFW-10. With something like this you can't have your cake and eat it too.

[bobhaze]

[QUOTE=Redbeard]My sentiments exactly woochifer.... Most of the Hsu subs have no condiseration to size even the smallest is quite large. I am really turned on by the Velodyn DD12 but then again I don't have $2500 either. Hsu and SVS are both larger than life, you know this when Hsu sugests using it (VF2) as a coffee table or end table. The Rockit is as close to good as I can come up with but the $600 is almost the same price as the $700 JM Labs Chorus S that I am trying to avoid spending.

My point of haveing a smaller sub was that I have a small 12x15 room with hardwood floors and a close neighbor. I just want the sub to fill in low notes on music. My ceiling for a sub would probably be $400 and size wise would be 13x13x13. I had a PDR 10 which I thought was a bit large.


Redbeard,

Maybe you missed my post since it was at the end of the last page 1, but since you haven't commented either you missed it or don't want to consider it. OK if its the latter, but I wanted to make sure you didn't just miss it. Particularly since it appears from some of your comments that the CSW P500 that I recommended is a lot closer to what you say you're looking for than some of the subwoofers you are actively discussing. I say this because:
1. It's a small sealed box that's about 13" x 13" x 13", and as I mentioned in the previous post is unusual in that it does not mechanically vibrate the floor and building structure.
2. It has good extension (24Hz), and excellent detail according to the reviews on this site.
3. There is more control flexibility than most subs give you, which is valuable in all rooms but particularly so in smaller ones.
4. IMHO it's unusually good looking in the Mahogany or Maple finishes compared to the black boxes that you expressed some concern about.
5. Although a little more than $400, the ebay pricing is pretty good for factory B-stock, and you get 45 days to try it at home. I've gotten B-stock from CSW before and they looked perfect.
No, I'm not a salesman, just seems like this is a good match.

[Redbeard]

No I did see your post but I kind of have issues with cambridge soundworks. I was very hot on this sub a year or so ago, but one cambridge rep who owned it said it was under powered a bit. I am sure it is a viable option as some say it is very musical. I am skeptical on Cambridge though and think that their are better out there. I think like Bose and Boston Acoustics Cambridge has seen its golden age come and go.

I really want the Rocket UFW10 I will have to find a way to get the cash? The cambridge is an excellent suggestions though and does fit all my needs exceptionally well, maybe it is worth a closer look. One must remeber though I want this mostly for music.

[bobhaze]

"...one cambridge rep who owned it said it was under powered a bit. "

This was my reaction when I tried my brother-in law's P500 in my 2-channel setup which is in a very large open floorplan. However, in his room, which is about 15% larger than what you describe, it is more than adequate. The thing that impressed me most was how well it integrated with my Apogee Calipers, which is not an easy task for any sub.

"... I am skeptical on Cambridge though and think that their are better out there. I think like Bose and Boston Acoustics Cambridge has seen its golden age come and go."
I've had others say this to me too. Maybe this is based on products like the Basscubes, which seem to be just average, if that. My personal experience is just the opposite. In the past, I had Ensembles and the old Ambiance speakers in secondary systems, but would never have considered them as a primary system. I returned the Towers by Henry Kloss after the trial period, too boomy and seriously lacking detail. Not Kloss' best work IMO. However, the "Newton Series" products have impressed me enough to try them myself. I did an in home HT system shootout between CSW, Definitive, Paradigm, Infinity and B&W two years ago and to my surprise I ended up keeping the CSW. I still use my old Apogee ribbons and Ed Meitner amps in the 2 ch system, but my CSW T500 based HT system impresses me more and more everytime I use it.

Of course from what I hear, the Rockets are pretty darn good too!

[Roger]

However, the "Newton Series" products have impressed me enough to try them myself. I did an in home HT system shootout between CSW, Definitive, Paradigm, Infinity and B&W two years ago and to my surprise I ended up keeping the CSW. I still use my old Apogee ribbons and Ed Meitner amps in the 2 ch system, but my CSW T500 based HT system impresses me more and more everytime I use it.

Even though I'm a very satisfied Hsu STF-2 owner, I'll pile on with the Cambridge SW Newton love (The rest of my HT is CSW Newtons.) And if I had to live in a condo/apt., and downstairs neighbors obviated a downward-firing sub, I might consider a forward- or side-firing design like the CSW Newton P-series subs. (http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com/store/category.cgi?category=spk_subwoofer) The P500 has an outboard controller that, IIRC, includes a parametric eq. Downside: at $799, it's well above your stated price range. The P200, however, is 10", 200watts and more within reach. I've never heard their subs, but between my experience w/ other CSW gear and the raves of other CSW sub owners, I'd consider them worthy of a look/audition.

FWIW, there are always lots of online coupons out there for CSW. Might be worth a google search. There's also an outlet site and they frequently sell b-stocks and returns on eBay.

[Redbeard]

Well, though I kinda researched the P500 a year or two ago and was really hot for it that is when I was not really into audiophile grade equipment, I feel kind of like I am stepping backward by buying comercial grade stuff. I heard the sub in the store which did not impress me but I never got to take it home and audition it. My friend at the tiem had the P1000 and it sounded damn good for bass but the rest of his system kinda blew, bose speakers etc...

My main focus as of recent times is to get into the more bang for your buck equipment like Dynaudio, JM Labs, Quad, Harbeth, Totem etc... I am trying to get away from the mid fi level such as Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony etc... I firmly beleive those companies put to much into advertising and less into the actual product you get. My $750 Focal JM Labs 714 Chorus S sound better than $3k Boston Acoustics. That is what I am looking for Maximum bang for the buck. I will audition the P500 along with the P200 again to see what is up. I am just shying away from mass marketed type equipment that is sold at Best Buy and Circuit City at this time.,

[Roger]

Well, though I kinda researched the P500 a year or two ago and was really hot for it that is when I was not really into audiophile grade equipment, I feel kind of like I am stepping backward by buying comercial grade stuff. I heard the sub in the store which did not impress me but I never got to take it home and audition it. My friend at the tiem had the P1000 and it sounded damn good for bass but the rest of his system kinda blew, bose speakers etc...

My main focus as of recent times is to get into the more bang for your buck equipment like Dynaudio, JM Labs, Quad, Harbeth, Totem etc... I am trying to get away from the mid fi level such as Denon, Pioneer, Yamaha, Sony etc... I firmly beleive those companies put to much into advertising and less into the actual product you get. My $750 Focal JM Labs 714 Chorus S sound better than $3k Boston Acoustics. That is what I am looking for Maximum bang for the buck. I will audition the P500 along with the P200 again to see what is up. I am just shying away from mass marketed type equipment that is sold at Best Buy and Circuit City at this time.,


Seems to me that you're a little too eager to dismiss some brands or products based on irrational logic. You (or anyone) should shop and buy based on personal, empirical impressions, instead of, or at least in addition to, perceptions based on prejudicial labels like "Bose" or "commercial" or "mid-fi" or "audiophile-grade."

Anything less and is simply selling your ultimate satisfaction short. (How's that for alliteration? ;) )

In my experience, CSW and Hsu are two of the best bang/buck deals out there. Certainly, from a value standpoint, they belong in that first list (JM Labs, Totem, etc.), not the second. True, CSW is a mainstream brand with an enourmous breadth of products (which they sell only online and in their own retail stores, though, not at BB or CC, BTW) but that shouldn't eliminate them from consideration just because you perceive them to be a brand who's "seen its golden age come and go." All they really have in common with Bose and BA, at least for purposes of this discussion, is being from Massachusettes.

Just for the record, part of why CSW can offer such great value (maybe less on their subs than their other speakers) is precisely because they don't spend a lot -- hardly anything, compared to the other so-called mid-fi brands you lump them in with -- on advertising.

Also, on what planet is a 500-watt sub "underpowered" for a room the size of yours?

Bottom line: Listen to everything you can, buy what you like, and forget about the labels and the hype.

[Redbeard]

First off sub woofer wattage means didley I listened to a 2200 watt Velodyne at a high end audio store and it had no umph for my tastes. Then I auditioned some of M&K's smaller subs MX- 76, VX-100 etc and they flat out pounded base. I listened to the CC sub in the showroom and it did not seem to have that much going for it IMHO.

Secondly I do not think Cambridge makes speakers that could compare with any JM Labs, Totem, B&W or Dynaudio compartively speaking and that is a fact. I don't even think they can compare with Boston Acoustics higher end lines. I don't know much about the subs, but my friend did have the P1000 and it sounded tight and dynamic but no where near 1000 watts and it has two 10" drivers please.... a Hsu VF3 or SVS will blow that sub into the weeds and I wont even mention what a comparably priced M&K will do to it. Understand your advice though I just don't feel the same way and have never heard people on av forums praising CC, that is because they simply cant compare to the big boys.

[Woochifer]

First off sub woofer wattage means didley I listened to a 2200 watt Velodyne at a high end audio store and it had no umph for my tastes. Then I auditioned some of M&K's smaller subs MX- 76, VX-100 etc and they flat out pounded base. I listened to the CC sub in the showroom and it did not seem to have that much going for it IMHO.

Secondly I do not think Cambridge makes speakers that could compare with any JM Labs, Totem, B&W or Dynaudio compartively speaking and that is a fact. I don't even think they can compare with Boston Acoustics higher end lines. I don't know much about the subs, but my friend did have the P1000 and it sounded tight and dynamic but no where near 1000 watts and it has two 10" drivers please.... a Hsu VF3 or SVS will blow that sub into the weeds and I wont even mention what a comparably priced M&K will do to it. Understand your advice though I just don't feel the same way and have never heard people on av forums praising CC, that is because they simply cant compare to the big boys.

Those comparisons that you're citing are irrelevant unless they were all done in the same room using the same level settings and setup in the same position. Reason? The room acoustics will differ, and something as simple as moving a subwoofer by a couple of feet in any direction can dramatically affect what you hear. The big issue with subwoofers is that they are much more room dependent than the other speakers, which makes them very difficult to evaluate by just dropping in on a local dealer (plus unless you bring a SPL meter with you, you don't know whether the levels set at the store are correct).

[Redbeard]

I agree that placement has something to do with it but it is not the end all of subwoofers. If you took a KLH crapola sub and postion it perfectly and then took a REL, Hsu or SVS and place it in any spot your telling me that the KLH would sound better. I dont agree, usually in my experience if it sounds good in the store to me it sounds awesome when I get it home. I just spent 6mo auditioning speakers and this was definately the case.

[This Guy]

Well yeah the KLH probably would sound better. Say you set up the KLH so that it's pretty much flat down to 35 hz. Than you take a REL and put it somewhere else. WIth the REL, you could have a peak of 15 dB at one frequncy and a null of 15 dB. Yeah this example is a little extreme, but not impossible. The KLH will sound WAY better. I'd pick the properly set up KLH that is + or - 2 dB down to 35 hz than a REL that is + or - 15 dB down to 18 hz.

[Redbeard]

As I said before set up in important but not as important as how it sounds. A bad piece of equipment will sound bad wherever you put it with slight improvement. On the other hand a good piece of equipment will sound good wherever it is but live up to its true potential as you place it better. I know alot of audiophile who don't really much on placement of speakers.

I have heard so many people talk badly about poor speakers, Radio Shack, sharp, panasonic, bose etc placement has little bearing on this. In the same regard people who purchase high end stuff like Sonus, Totem, B&W, Snell, Energy, etc... Consistently rave about performance and these people are average type consumers who dont ever spend the extra money on high end cables. It is simply out of the box and into position whereever they fit in the room.

My Focal JM Labs are positioned horribly in my room Kityy cornered because I have no other option and they sound exceptional.

I disagree that placement is the last word in speaker development, by the way you can have the KLH and ill keep the REL, ha ha ha..... :D

[bobhaze]

First off sub woofer wattage means didley I listened to a 2200 watt Velodyne at a high end audio store and it had no umph for my tastes. Then I auditioned some of M&K's smaller subs MX- 76, VX-100 etc and they flat out pounded base. I listened to the CC sub in the showroom and it did not seem to have that much going for it IMHO.

Secondly I do not think Cambridge makes speakers that could compare with any JM Labs, Totem, B&W or Dynaudio compartively speaking and that is a fact. I don't even think they can compare with Boston Acoustics higher end lines. I don't know much about the subs, but my friend did have the P1000 and it sounded tight and dynamic but no where near 1000 watts and it has two 10" drivers please.... a Hsu VF3 or SVS will blow that sub into the weeds and I wont even mention what a comparably priced M&K will do to it. Understand your advice though I just don't feel the same way and have never heard people on av forums praising CC, that is because they simply cant compare to the big boys.

As Woochifer stated, you it is nearly impossible to compare woofers when auditioned in different rooms, with different electronics, and different settings. Not only does placement matter, but there is a lot of variability due to the taste or abilities of the person who set up the system. Level, crossover choices, phase or polarity relative to the satellites can all make tremendous differences in perception and they are not constant from place to place. More often than not, store soundrooms are set up the way they are because the equipment fits or looks good in that position, not because it is optimum. The CSW stores I've seen are particularly poorly set up with overcrowded soundrooms and very poor speaker placement. That is why I am a firm believer in making the most of in-home trial programs and making the decision where it counts. When I got my HT speakers, from in store listening I thought that I was going to like the Paradigm towers, or B&W's, the best. The CSW's were only about #4 or 5 from the in-store experience, however my wife liked the way they looked the best so I reluctantly gave them a shot. A few weeks later to my surprise the CSW's stayed and the others went back. It took the better part of three weeks to make that decision based on many hours of both music and movies to realize that the thing that made me think I liked the Paradigms upon initial listening made me want to turn them off about 2/3 of the way through most movies. They became fatiquing and metalic sounding in my room, with my electronics. I'm not saying the speaker is bad, just that there was no synergy with my room and the assocated equipment.
As far as power is concerned, don't assume that just because something has a lot of power that it implies it should play louder. There are a lot of variables that mean just as much as raw power. Just like 100 Horsepower will do a lot more in a motorcycle than it will in an SUV the sensitivity of the speakers plays a major role. This is directly related to driver characteristics and enclosure design. Many of the Velodynes, as well as the CSW P500/P1000 are sealed enclosures that are very small relative to their respective cone areas. This results in a system that is either inefficient, or will have a high bass cutoff as "Hoffman's Iron Law" states. (In general terms, Small? Efficient/sensitive? Goes low? - Pick two.) The respective manufacturers claim to have made the trade-off of extending the range at the expense of sensitivity. In CSW's case this makes sense in that they already have woofers that take the opposite direction, like the basscube 15 that will play far louder than a P500 on less power. The benefit of this is that it results in a very linear design with excellent transient response in a very small box compared to a vented woofer, but both sensitivity and maximum SPL are compromised. That's why, as I previously stated, the P500 was not adequate in my larger room, but in my brother-in law's house the full output will blow you away. It's relative to the environment. Now, according to your originally stated goals, this seems to be exactly what you are looking for, yet in later posts you seem to be more impressed with woofers that "flat out pounded base"(sic) instead of those with extended low range and good bass detail that probably still have adequate output to fill a moderate room. Don't forget, when a subwoofer is set up correctly you shouldn't hear it. It should sound like the main speakers just go lower, not like there is some separate box somewhere.
Now I'm not trying to talk you into a P500. Frankly I don't care., I'm just trying to help out. It's your choice and you're the one that needs to be happy with it. It just seems to fit your stated goals. However, I do agree with Roger that you may be unnecessarily limiting your choices based on preconceptions and overall generalizations that are not altogether based in reality. When doing my HT shootout, I even went so far as taking the speakers apart to see how they were made, and I can hoestly say that the CSW Newton towers were the equal of any of the other brands in componentry, and in enclosure workmanship were arguably the best (mine are blonde maple). You can't always go on quality assumptions based on the past or due to the market-image degradation that results when the same brand happens to make mass market PC speakers.

[Redbeard]

I must agree with you and upon futher consideration the Cambridge seems to fit the bill nicely which no other sub can do. Excellent musical reviews, small box, very attractive, deep bass down to 24Hz, full control with remote.

How should I set this up any thougths, problem is I have my tv kiddie cornerd in the living room and the couch against the far wall at a 90 degree angle. Main Speakers are right next to the TV and anlged at 45 anlge toward the main listening area. Room has hardwood floors and a full brickwall fireplace. I don't even know where to begin to set this up? In the past I could not get my old Paradigm PDR-10 to blend well with my Boston VR-M60's, you could always tell where the bass was coming from. Maybe that is because it did not have a phase control?

[Woochifer]

I must agree with you and upon futher consideration the Cambridge seems to fit the bill nicely which no other sub can do. Excellent musical reviews, small box, very attractive, deep bass down to 24Hz, full control with remote.

How should I set this up any thougths, problem is I have my tv kiddie cornerd in the living room and the couch against the far wall at a 90 degree angle. Main Speakers are right next to the TV and anlged at 45 anlge toward the main listening area. Room has hardwood floors and a full brickwall fireplace. I don't even know where to begin to set this up? In the past I could not get my old Paradigm PDR-10 to blend well with my Boston VR-M60's, you could always tell where the bass was coming from. Maybe that is because it did not have a phase control?

Well, that could include any number of potential causes. The crossover point, the phase, and room-induced effects. With my sub, it gave away its location very readily (registered a +14 db peak at 88 Hz) before I corrected some of the room induced peaks with a parametric EQ. Once that was corrected, the sub blended in with the rest of the speakers very well.

[Redbeard]

That sounds so damn complicated... Is there a subwoofer set up for dummys????

[Roger]

I must agree with you and upon futher consideration the Cambridge seems to fit the bill nicely which no other sub can do. Excellent musical reviews, small box, very attractive, deep bass down to 24Hz, full control with remote.

How should I set this up any thougths, problem is I have my tv kiddie cornerd in the living room and the couch against the far wall at a 90 degree angle. Main Speakers are right next to the TV and anlged at 45 anlge toward the main listening area. Room has hardwood floors and a full brickwall fireplace. I don't even know where to begin to set this up? In the past I could not get my old Paradigm PDR-10 to blend well with my Boston VR-M60's, you could always tell where the bass was coming from. Maybe that is because it did not have a phase control?

Glad to see you're coming around, Red. A/V forums are helpful when taken with the proper skepticism and reading between the lines. IOW, sometimes, 50,000 Elvis fans can be wrong. bobhaze said it all pretty well; no need for me to labor the point.

My first thought about localization of bass would be crossover freq. After that, I'm not nearly experienced enough to offer any valuable advice on dealing with room effects or peaks and valleys. (I'm much better at telling you how to spend your money ;) )

As for placement, you could put it in the corner behind the TV, maybe? No, that'd be a tragedy because you couldn't see that beautiful CSW cabinet. BTW, my Newt'n bookshelves are also in the blonde maple and they are GO-geous. But I digress...

IIRC, the P500 comes with a "semi-parametric EQ" (per the CSW web site (http://www.cambridgesoundworks.com)). That might help some. You might try e-mailing your scenario to someone at CSW, via the link on their site. You could also visit HERE (http://www.hometheaterspot.com/htsthreads/postlist.php?Cat=&Board=cambridge) It's a little hive of guys who've drunk the CSW Kool-Aid. There's actually been a pretty active conversation lately about the pros and cons of the P500 vs. the P1000, etc. bobhaze, you might check it out, too, if you're so inclined.

[Redbeard]

Sold on the P500

[F1]

Sold on the P500

With $800 price tag? ;)

[skeptic]

"what is a parametric equalizer?"

An equalizer is a circuit whose frequency response is deliberately altered. Gain of the circuit becomes a function of frequency deliberately tailored to meet a specific need.
A graphic equalizer is circuit which has a series of controls, each affecting a specific predetermined frequency band and the bandwidth or Q of the effect is also predetermined.
A parmetric equalizer is more flexible in that it allows you to adjust the center frequency of the adjustment, the bandwidth or Q of the frequencies it will affect, as well as the degree of the change (boost or cut) it will make. When properly used, it has certain advantages over graphic equalizers in that its response can often be better tailored to the problem it is intended to solve. But only in some circumstances and only if properly used.

[Redbeard]

No not $800, $480 refurbished at cambridge soundworks.com