Shopping for speakers...need advice

[Babear]

Shopping for speakers...considering Axiom...I am wanting to spend 500-800.00 for a pair any sugestions? I have an old Kenwood 9600 receiver.

[RGA]

What kind of music do you like? Will you eventually upgrade the receiver? Are you buying this for music or do you want home theater - there can be trade-offs as to your choices is H/T is a big priority for example.

Axiom has support. I like to be able to listen to speakers before I buy and I'm not a big fan of what Axiom gets compared to of what I have heard. But it does not matter what other people think it only matters what you like. And the best way to REALLY know what you like is to listen to a ton of stuff. SPeakers can last 20-30 years or more - so the more you listen to the more you will know it over that 20+ years the speaker will be ON in your home a lot or OFF. Choose wisely.

[psonic]

"Shopping for speakers...considering Axiom...I am wanting to spend 500-800.00"

My freind your off to a good start in audiophile land if you have such a budget. I strongly caution you against internet speakers and all the rave reviews you see for them. See they have to have these reviews so to survive as a company so for all we know many of them could be produced by the company itself. Many Axiom owners compare them to speakers like the Paradigm Titan and Monitor series...these are at best mediocre; you can do much better for $500-800. See, ALL speakers have good reviews, so reviews are somewhat meaningless. Look for reviews on $50 speakers you'll see good ones, etc. You should shop your local hifi shopes and listen to what is in your price range, and as many as possible. From my auditioning in that range recently, I would highly recommend a listen to Energy C-3 and C-5, Kef Q3 & Q5, Paradigm Studio 20 and at the top of your range the excellent Dynaudio Audience 42 & 52. You may also try Vienna acoustics and Totem. These the best speakers under $1000 that I was able to find locally in my recent, extensive auditioning. I did not get a chance to listen to Von Schweikert, though they are highly spoken of around here and compared with Dynaudio and the like. I actually ended up with Dynaudio but they are a 4ohm design and some receivers will not cope with that load, others will, you have to check with your receiver specs and see if it is 4ohm rated so you'll know what speakers you can consider. I had a NAD integrated at the time, so it was a non issue for me. The other models I mentioned are 8ohm and fairly easy to drive, even for a receiver. Also if you like a particular speaker after auditioning you can buy used on Audiogon.com and save 30-50%, I have found that audiophiles keep very good care of their gear.

Go out and listen to as much as you can (not best buy, only hifi shops) and have set them up on a receiver similar to yours.

[topspeed]

This was posted at another site and I found it very interesting. Before you go forward on those Axioms, you might want to check their measurements. Is this a freq. response curve or a map of the Grand Canyon? You decide.
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/
(for those of you that care, check out the De Capo!)
As others have mentioned, there are a lot of good choices so get out there and listen, listen, listen. It's your money.

Good luck and buy what moves you.

[markw]

If that's the case we all would have Imodium AD. :)

Seriously, go out and listen to any and all speakers you can. If you just surf the net, compare specs and go by other people's opinions, you may be sorely disappointed. Only you can prevent forest...oops, sorry, wrong post. Only you can know what you like to listen to. One man's detailed is another's bright. Likewise, exaggerated bass might be seen as pleasantly full or robust by another.

If you are choosing women and ice cream flavors by that method, put me down for a Brasilian and Chocolate Mint Chip.

[Pat D]

This was posted at another site and I found it very interesting. Before you go forward on those Axioms, you might want to check their measurements. Is this a freq. response curve or a map of the Grand Canyon? You decide.
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/
(for those of you that care, check out the De Capo!)
As others have mentioned, there are a lot of good choices so get out there and listen, listen, listen. It's your money.

Good luck and buy what moves you.
Don't knock the Axioms FR curves: some of them are pretty good. The Axiom M22Ti SE measures quite well, especially at the price.

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m22ti_se/

And the Millenia 2i measures even better:

http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/measurements/axiom_m2i/

The M40Ti's curve may not look too pretty, but really the dip in the midrange is quite narrow and should not be very noticeable.

The M80Ti is a multi-driver system and it is not easy to measure them--but the response above 700 Hz is really very good, also the dispersion, as is usual with Axiom speakers. I don't know how they will sound in a real room, never having heard them. It depends on one's priorities and the measurements aren't bad.

Now the Reference 3A De Capo---well, at that price, I think it ought to measure a lot better, but it shouldn't be unpleasant to listen to.

[topspeed]

If you are choosing women and ice cream flavors by that method, put me down for a Brasilian and Chocolate Mint Chip.

Brasilian ice cream...isn't that the really smooth flavor that's been waxed ;)?

[RGA]

This was posted at another site and I found it very interesting. Before you go forward on those Axioms, you might want to check their measurements. Is this a freq. response curve or a map of the Grand Canyon? You decide.
http://www.soundstagemagazine.com/speakermeasurements/
(for those of you that care, check out the De Capo!)
As others have mentioned, there are a lot of good choices so get out there and listen, listen, listen. It's your money.

Good luck and buy what moves you.

Go and listen to the Paradigm Monitor 5 and the Reference 3a MM De Capo - After you do this you will know what little help Soundstage measurements provide you in actually determining which speaker is better able to communicate music.

[N. Abstentia]

Paradigm Referece Studio 20's fit in that price range, definitely put them on your audtion list.

[topspeed]

Go and listen to the Paradigm Monitor 5 and the Reference 3a MM De Capo - After you do this you will know what little help Soundstage measurements provide you in actually determining which speaker is better able to communicate music.

Define "communicate music". Is accuracy a part of this equation?

Personally, I could care less about measurments as long as the speaker sounds like I want it to. After all, it is my money. However, I do think the ragged response curve to the De Capo is surprising. That said, a lot of people think that speakers that exhibit perfectly flat FR curves can sound lifeless. Many times the "it" speaker of the moment will have a spike/dip or two that represents the current "flavor of the month" in hi-fi.

[RGA]

The Reference 3a De Capo is an offshoot of a previous speaker the 3a MM from around 1989. Things you won't find in measurements but you will when listening - dynamics, openess, timbral accuracy - the sense of not being a photo copy but a real experience - you cannot measure some of these aspects. Don't think what Dehay has done is not intentional either.

Here is a review of the De Capo WITH the measurement but with informed commentary on why these are hardly a bad thing. UHF measure in a normal listening room (not in a chamber) at the loud levels the speaker is capable of. Now ask them which speaker they would buy - the Reference 3a MM De Capo or a Paradigm Studio 100. http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue60/MM.html

I am lucky because I got to hear them against each other - in a normal non anechoic room the Studio 40 etc are thin - lack bass, dynamics, vocal clarity, realism, and generally sound dull nasal - and laid back but at the same time a bright top end. They sound compressed when pushed but they image very well seem to be able to handle rock and do a good job with movies where a sub is required.
Note that this is in comparison to more expensive and better speakers - as the 40V2 I would rate and did rate a good 7 or 8 out of 10 against speakers in its price range. The speakers are well liked by reviewers but more importantly by consumers - why? not looks or recognition - they're a no name or were not long ago - sound.

[topspeed]

The speakers are well liked by reviewers but more importantly by consumers - why? not looks or recognition - they're a no name or were not long ago - sound.
Are you talking about Paradigm or Ref 3a? If you're talking about R3a, the only problem with this analogy is that I'd bet money Paradigm sells a LOT more Studio 40's than R3a moves De Capo's.

[RGA]

Ahh But Paradigm is a marketing machine - why would any dealer carry Reference 3a if it costs more has no name and sounds worse? The answer to that is that it it has no name it does cost more and it sounds a helluva lot better.

Most people buying the advertising machines don't actually listen to smaller brands - when they do - that is when Reference 3a and the Audio Note's of the world make sales. Not an attack on those brands - been there more than once - Hell I was the worst example buying an Arcam Delta 290 amp over a Sugden A21a because even though I thought the Sugden was a lot better I assumed I was mistaken since the Arcam was plastered as everyone's best buy 5 star award winner and had adverts in every Stereophile - still do.

Bose sells more than Paradigm, PSB and Energy combined - does that make them better speakers?

"there is no single way to evaluate frequency response so that it is meaningful" http://www.uhfmag.com/Issue60/Lows.html

[matt39]

In your price range the Axiom floorstanders are probably good choices. You get a 30 day home trial to listen to them but you have to cover shipping if you return them. A lot of people like them though. Floorstanders I've heard in that price range that I like are Kef Q3,
AthenaTechnology AS-F2, PSB Image 4T and 5T, and Acoustic Energy Evo 3. The Evo 3's are not that easy to find, but if you have the chance, give them a listen. I thought they sounded pretty good and they look nice too. The PSB's are hard to beat too. In bookshelfs I liked the Paradigm Studio 20. I liked the Polk Lsi 7's but they (like the Dynaudio 42's) are a 4 ohm load so you need to check your receiver to make sure it can handle that. The B&W DM602S3's are very good and they're affordable and easy to find. Quad 11L are good too but can be hard to find. Anyway, there are a lot of good options in your price range so take your time and good luck.

[TinHere]

"Shopping for speakers...considering Axiom...I am wanting to spend 500-800.00"

My freind your off to a good start in audiophile land if you have such a budget. I strongly caution you against internet speakers and all the rave reviews you see for them. See they have to have these reviews so to survive as a company so for all we know many of them could be produced by the company itself.

Lot's of things "could be." Many people have had very positve experiences with a number of direct online companies and have had their expectations exceeded. THERE IS NO INTERNET DIRECT SPEAKER CONSPRACY at least with a number of companies that have earned their good reputations.To suggest that all the positive reviews on many audio sites are contrived by the companies is a statement lacking a factual foundation and contains wrongful inuendo. Where is any proof of these charges? The major internet players aren't scamming anyone, and to suggest that they are is ludicrous at best.

Babear,

Axiom is fine company that has earned a very good reputation based on customer satisfaction. Although some still wish to perpetuate the myths and conspiracy theories about direct online companies they continue to grow and gain market share as people learn what eliminating middleman profit can mean to them in terms of price/performance. Listening to some speakers in stores will give you an idea of the kind of sound you like or don't like. Listening to speakers in your home with your gear will tell the tale. These direct internet companies have earned their fine reputations among knowledgable people who did lots of comparisons and opted to for them based on their personal experiences. As much as it's your ears, it's also your money, so why not get the best you can for it? What was a leap of faith years ago is now just good value.

btw I purchased my Rockets direct from AV123.com and couldn't be happier with the value and customer service I continue to receive. The Rocket's offer a less "foward" presentation than the Axioms and real wood veneers.

[Lord_Magnepan]

Try a Magnepan MMG.

[N. Abstentia]

Hmmmm.....I wonder if Lord Magnepan would be biased towards Magnepan?

[skeptic]

If your purpose is to reproduce music as accurately as possible within your budget, the best advice is to attend lots of live concerts to familiarize yourself with what real music sounds like and then obtain a fair number of the best recordings you can. Take them with you and listen carefully before you decide. Once you have narrowed your choices, shop for price. Be sure that if you buy on the internet (or in a store), you will get the manufacturer's full warranty and that you will get immediate and unquestioned satisfaction if they arrive damaged. Even if you buy them from a retailer, try to get the option of a refund or at least a credit for an exchange if you get them home and don't like them.

If you are looking for speakers for other purposes such as the playback of "manufactured music", you are kind of on your own. Only you can decide what you are actually looking for. For all I know, your best choice for some kinds of music might be Cerwin Vega. If you are looking for a Home Theater system, you face the same problem. Choose the models you would accept first and then shop for price. Buying speakers is a little like buying shoes. You don't really know if you will like them until you try them yourself, nobody can decide for you. Take your time. Mistakes, meaning you have to sell them because you can't stand them usually entails a considerable loss of money. Beware people telling you they have to get broken in. Usually what gets broken in is your hearing as you become accostomed to something new. Good Luck.

[Bryan]

It depends upon what you are interested in. Are you looking for more two channel listening or something for a future HT? What types of music do you enjoy listening to?

There are many fine speakers available to you locally, among those PSB, Dynaudio, B&W, Paradigm, Klipsch, etc. There are many others only available factory direct, such as nOrh, ACI, Ascend Acoustics, Axiom, Onix (aforementioned Rocket), etc. This doesn't begin to enter in the DIY or used market.

I've listened to speakers from JBL, B&W, Klipsch, Monitor Audio, Martin Logan, etc. Those were excellent. I also read what owners thought of speakers from nOrh and, ultimately went with them. That being said, over the years my taste and finances have changed and I upgraded to Rockets. (Of course, a pair of Rocket Classic RS550s is close to 80% of the cost of a set of five ceramic nOrh 4.0s.) Many former nOrh owners have upgraded to VMPS.

Ultimately the decision is yours but do your homework. Research the speakers and what people think about them. You want something that will last you for years to come.

[psonic]

"Lot's of things "could be." Many people have had very positve experiences with a number of direct online companies and have had their expectations exceeded. THERE IS NO INTERNET DIRECT SPEAKER CONSPRACY at least with a number of companies that have earned their good reputations.To suggest that all the positive reviews on many audio sites are contrived by the companies is a statement lacking a factual foundation and contains wrongful inuendo. Where is any proof of these charges? The major internet players aren't scamming anyone, and to suggest that they are is ludicrous at best."

But the problem is almost all speakers get good reviews somewhere so they are somewhat useless...and I was just trying to iterate my view that most comparisons I've seen of Axiom speakers are to lower end Paradigm models like Titan and Monitor series. Some of the reviewers preferred their Titans to the M3ti. Do you think the Titan is a good sounding speaker in the $500-800 range? I do not, and I feel the speakers I referred him to represent best of that class. When you auditioned the Rockets, what did you compare them to or what was your measuring stick of reference? Energy, B&W, Dynaudio, Kef, Martin Logan, Sonus Faber? If you did not have you compared them since?

It is just my opinion that the best approach is to go out and audition and compare available models. I also feel that listening to expsensive speakers as a reference or measuring stick is useful in finding good and bad traits in less expensive ones.

[Bryan]

Reviews can be slanted. For example, the Sony SA-WM40 was an excellent sub-$200 subwoofer. However, it can not hold a candle to one from Adire Audio, SVS, or HSU. Another example are the KLH 9912s. They are an excellent speaker for $100 a pair. Yet do not make the mistake of thinking they will compete with B&W or Def Tech. A speaker should be judged on it own merit and agianst similarly priced speakers. Though my 4.0s were excellent my RS550s are much better. A reviewer shouldn't write a review within week of owning a product. You do not want the sheer joy and excitement of having something new to influence your review. You want to get to know the product, what its like, how it sounds, etc. I normally wait until around the three months or so time frame prior to writing a product review and will then include my thoughts.

Prior to getting the Rockets I did a bunch of research. I read what the owners were saying about them and what they had judged them against. What the owners tastes were. What they liked and didn't like. For those who owned nOrh, like myself, and went to Rocket I paid special attention to their comments.

I didn't really audition other speakers that heavily. Truthfully, it would've never bothered me if the nOrhs remained in my system for years to come. I was happy with them and there performance yet started to be itching for a change. That itch lead to the question of, "Is this change going to be worth it?" Am I changing just to change (sideways move) or changing and it being an upgrade? In my case, it was and is the later. In either event I wanted to make an informed decision.

I occassionally do stop by and listen to other speakers. It is to stay current rather than to change what I own. Remaining happy with the gear I own has save me a lot of money. Doing all that research, getting to know the people and their tastes, what the company and president is like, etc., has allowed me to purchase equipment I know I will be satisfied with. Much like I added the risers and spikes to my 550s to improve the sound the same will be done when the MKII crossover kit comes out. It is what others before me have done and said and I have found their findings to be true.

[TinHere]

"Lot's of things "could be." Many people have had very positve experiences with a number of direct online companies and have had their expectations exceeded. THERE IS NO INTERNET DIRECT SPEAKER CONSPRACY at least with a number of companies that have earned their good reputations.To suggest that all the positive reviews on many audio sites are contrived by the companies is a statement lacking a factual foundation and contains wrongful inuendo. Where is any proof of these charges? The major internet players aren't scamming anyone, and to suggest that they are is ludicrous at best."

But the problem is almost all speakers get good reviews somewhere so they are somewhat useless...and I was just trying to iterate my view that most comparisons I've seen of Axiom speakers are to lower end Paradigm models like Titan and Monitor series. Some of the reviewers preferred their Titans to the M3ti. Do you think the Titan is a good sounding speaker in the $500-800 range? I do not, and I feel the speakers I referred him to represent best of that class. When you auditioned the Rockets, what did you compare them to or what was your measuring stick of reference? Energy, B&W, Dynaudio, Kef, Martin Logan, Sonus Faber? If you did not have you compared them since?

It is just my opinion that the best approach is to go out and audition and compare available models. I also feel that listening to expsensive speakers as a reference or measuring stick is useful in finding good and bad traits in less expensive ones.

The reviews are as useless or useful as the person making the review and how you relate to it. I'm a bad example of how to buy in that I was one of the first to do so and there was no info. A case of being lucky rather than smart. I liked what I heard and as time passed other people who's opinions I had come to respect were extolling the virtues of the speakers I lucked into. I've invested little time in doing speaker comparisons, or even listening to a lot of different speakers but I do trust many of the people who reported their comparisons. It's a lot more about who I know and not what I know. People I know to be knowledgeable post their findings and I believe them.

I'm not knocking your speaker recommendations or advise to go and listen. I was addressing the the negative comments you made about the internet business model, and the quick dismissal of reports from end users as merely marketing tools. There are lots of good options and some on-line research can help narrow the field. I recommend what I do because I have seen the number of satisfied customer grow. They are looking for "bang for the buck" and/or they have discriminating tastes. The percentage of returns is very small. If these companies didn't deliver the word of mouth from actual owners would still be heard, only instead of lauding them, they would be warning people to stay away. Many did their due diligence before they purchased and return to purchase upgrades. This internet direct thing is working out very well for many people.

[lattybuck]

I have seen many good buys on good used equipment sold in newspapers. I purchased a 10k pair of pans a few years back for 1k. Used em for almost 20 years now.
Amazing buys can be had if you take the time and be carefull when you buy used stuff. *00 dollars can get you a lot of very very nice speakers that way. It can also get you a trash can. Just be carefull, take your time and always review/lsiten to em before buy. Some speakers age/travel better than others. Find the sound you like in the audio shops, horns, electrostatic, conventional, etc., and start from there.