Sub help; anyone familiar with these?

[jasmit]

In my quest to put together a modest audio system/home theater, I've either purchased or decided on the following:

Receiver - Denon AVR-2803
Mains - Paradigm Studio 20 v.3
Center - Paradigm CC-470
Surrounds - Paradigm SA-10R

Now, I'm looking for a subwoofer. I'm not particularly enamoured with bass, but due to the size of my room (18' x 18' x 12') and the small size of my mains, I know I'll need one. My primary interest in a sub is one that is "musical" and accurate with minimal distortion. It doesn't have to go real low or real loud. My understanding is that a sealed sub is best for this. Agreed? Also, because of my three grandchildren, I want a downfiring sub. And finally, I would like a sub that is small to medium in size. Price limit - $750.

I recently entered into Google the words, "sealed downfiring" and pretty much all I came up with (aside from car subs) were the following speaker manufacturers:

1) ALAS12 and ALAS15 by Acoustech Labs
2) CLARUSX10200 and CLARUSX10150 by Creative Sound Solutions

So, has anyone ever heard of these companies and/or their subs? Any opinions?

Based on my needs/wants (small to mediumin size, accurate, dowfiring and <$750) can anyone suggest a sub for me?

Thanks for your help.

[Bryan]

I'd recommend either the HSU VTF-3 MKII (http://www.hsustore.com/vtf3.html), SVS PB1-ISD (http://www.svsubwoofers.com/subs_pb1_isd.htm), Rocket UFW-10 (http://www.av123.com/products_category_brand.php?section=subwoofers&brand=10) (though it is front firing), Adire Audio Dharman (http://www.adireaudio.com/StockProducts/finished_speakers.htm#SUBWOOFERS), or ACI Force (http://www.audioc.com/speakers/Force/intro.htm).

[jasmit]

Bryan - thanks for your suggestions. The Rocket and the Adire are both front firing and the SVS is a little too big. However, the Hsu and the ACI are both possibilities. The Hsu appears to be a more popular sub, perhaps because of its "bang for the buck." The ACI seems to have a smaller following, but has garnered some excellent reviews.

I would really like to hear any comments from folks who have or have extensively heard the ACI Force.

[Soundbro]

I recently got a Paradigm Reference Seismic 10 for the same reasons you described with a very similar setup and found it to be a great pick. It's about $250 more than your quoted price, but is also one of the more indestructible subs I've seen, not to mention great at providing breath-taking bass. If you find you can't budge on your price, the VTF series subs from HSU Research are also good subs beyond their cost/benefit. I got the Paradigm because it was just a whole other class of sound and admittedly liked the pretty blue glowing "P" on the front, as will your grandchildren. Those are the only subs as you described I am familiar with. Usually a 10" design is much better suited for music except for a few servo driven subs out there. 10" subs also usually have reasonably sized cabinets, something that was also important to me in finding a sub. Sealed as opposed to ported subs have their pros and cons. The only major downfall I could see of a ported sub is that small objects and children's hands fit in many ports. Many have covers, however. Hope this is useful to you.

[Mikey]

Usually a 10" design is much better suited for music except for a few servo driven subs out there.

This is completely false and a commin newbie misconception.

[jasmit]

To those who have taken the time to reply, thanks and sorry I haven't checked in on this thread in a while. Since my last post, I've been doing research and listening to a few subs.

Soundbro, I did audition the Paradigm Seismic 10 and was impressed. However, it is a little too far over my budget.

As is stands, I narrowed the field to the following:

1) ACI Force
2) Hsu VTF-2 Mk2
3) Paradigm PS-1000

The ACI Force has gotten a couple of very good professional reviews. Good size, decent specs, alot of WAF. Haven't heard one.

The VTF-2 has garnered so many good reviews and so much praise from owners that it has to occupy an inside track. It's a little on the big side, not as pretty as the Force, but it probably gives the most bang for the buck. I was able to hear one at CompUSA -- not the greatest place to audition anything. It sounded pretty good, even under the circumstances.

The PS-1000 is another that I auditioned, but it was quite a while ago. I'll be hearing it again in a week or so. Haven't seen any reviews on version 3; saw only one on version 2. It is highly recommended by my Paradigm salesman (naturally).

I'd really appreciate any additional comments anyone would like to make regarding these three subs.

[poneal]

You will get more bang for your buck and it only takes about 30 min. to put together. Here are a couple of links:

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-762
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=300-764

It will just as good or better than the subs your looking at.

[jasmit]

Thanks, poneal, for your reply, but as stated in the beginning, I really would like something that doesn't have exposed drivers -- either downfiring or bandpass. I've got three grandkids, two of whom are toddlers, one of which is quite rambunctious. I think that, if it wasn't for the kids, I would seriously consider a DIY.

That reminds me -- when I was a young feller, back in the mid to late 60's, I built my first real stereo from a kit. I don't know if you're old enough to remember these -- a Dynaco Stereo 120 amp, a Dynaco PAT-4 pre-amp and a Dynaco FM-5 tuner. I listened to these through AR-2ax speakers which sat on wooden boards on brackets on a wall. What a great little system that was.

But, I digress. Please keep the comments coming. I'd still like to hear anything else you all would like to say about: ACI Force, Hsu VTF-2 and Paradigm PS-1000. Thanks.

[cam]

To those who have taken the time to reply, thanks and sorry I haven't checked in on this thread in a while. Since my last post, I've been doing research and listening to a few subs.

Soundbro, I did audition the Paradigm Seismic 10 and was impressed. However, it is a little too far over my budget.

As is stands, I narrowed the field to the following:

1) ACI Force
2) Hsu VTF-2 Mk2
3) Paradigm PS-1000

The ACI Force has gotten a couple of very good professional reviews. Good size, decent specs, alot of WAF. Haven't heard one.

The VTF-2 has garnered so many good reviews and so much praise from owners that it has to occupy an inside track. It's a little on the big side, not as pretty as the Force, but it probably gives the most bang for the buck. I was able to hear one at CompUSA -- not the greatest place to audition anything. It sounded pretty good, even under the circumstances.

The PS-1000 is another that I auditioned, but it was quite a while ago. I'll be hearing it again in a week or so. Haven't seen any reviews on version 3; saw only one on version 2. It is highly recommended by my Paradigm salesman (naturally).

I'd really appreciate any additional comments anyone would like to make regarding these three subs.
The ps-1000 is now on v4 with a 200 watt rms amp. I use to have a ps-1000 v3 with a 175 watt rms amp. It is actually funny that your sales guy was pushing this sub because when I originally was buying mine my sales guy was recommending me not to buy it. I have not heard the v4 but some people who have heard the v2, v3 and ps-1000 v4 have stated it was a killer sub. The thing is when I bought my v3 almost 2 years ago I thought is was a killer sub also. Output is huge, I mean big but that's it. It puts out one big bloated note, it is hard to find a good location, and it is hard to blend with your other speakers. But some reviewers have stated that the v4 has fixed all the v2 and v3 problems.I doubt it. At that time I should have bought the pdr-12 and saved a couple of bucks or stepped up to the pw-2200 v1. Now there is another level, the pw-2100 which is in your price range. I now have seen the light and I traded my ps-1000 towards the new pw-2200 v2 and I now will not be upgrading ever again unless a big chunk of money comes my way and I just have to spend it. If you are looking at all models in the paradigm line up I would start with the pdr-12 then the pw-2100 and then the pw-2200. By pass the ps series all together. I do have a review on the pw-2200 where I make comparisons with my old ps-1000. Remember this is just my opinion and there are many other companys with some good subs in your price range.

[cam]

I over looked that you stated you need a band-pass or a downfiring sub so forget everything I said. If you are stuck on that then also give the ps-1200 a listen so you have a comparison to the ps-1000.

[Lafferman]

IMO the ps-1000 is a great sub but more so for home theater. don't get me wrong it will do music fine but home theater is where it shines. i've played lots of techno and stuff and my ps-1000 does get different notes mine isn't a one note sub(maybe mine is broken). i would not trade a ps-1000 for a pdr in my home theater but i don't listen to music with it. the pw series is definatly better but your also jumping up a lot in price. overall i'm extremely happy with the ps-1000 but i guess that just shows that different things work with different people. you should be able to get a v3 on a discount because of the v4's being out i got mine 250 US dollars off with a free sub cable added in.

[jasmit]

Cam and Lafferman -- Thanks for your replies. It is interesting that two different people can hear a speaker and come away with opinions that are almost 180 degrees apart. I guess that's why most folks find more value in a consensus of opinions rather than just one or two.

Like I said, I will be auditioning a PS-1000 at a Paradigm dealer in about a week. I'm guessing it'll be the latest version 'cause it's being shipped in to a new Paradigm dealer in town (Baton Rouge). While there, if they have one, I'll try to listen to a PS-1200. Last time there, I heard a Seismic 10. Very impressive, but over my budget.

I'd still like to hear from those who own or have heard ACI's Force. It was one that AR member Bryan recommended on June 15, but he didn't give any specifics.

Again, thanks to all who have taken the time to reply.

[N. Abstentia]

I would definitely go with the Seismic over the PS-1000. For music, bandpass is not the best design. It's designed to boost the lower frequencies, bandpass kind of 'cheats' by the way the driver is loaded and ported. This creates a nice loud boomy sound which is great for movies, not the best for music. Trust me, I had a PS-1000 for over a year. Great sub for what it's designed for, but I stepped up from there to the PW1200 (not the PS1200!) and eventually to the Servo 15 which I still have.

Spend a little extra now and get what you want. Otherwise you'll never be satisfied and you'll just end up spending more later just to get where you could be now.

[This Guy]

Yeah, but the Seismic has a pair of passive radiators sticking on the sides that his grandchildren can poke at. My vote goes to the HSU.

[jasmit]

Thanks, N.Absentia, for the advice. While I appreciate the idea of spending as much as one can afford to get the best possible sound, the Seismic is simply too expensive for me. There's only so much money in the till and one can only go into debt so much.

This Guy -- As stated, the Seismic is too expensive anyway. But, when I looked at it closely, I was surprised at how resilient the passive radiators are. They feel almost like tire rubber. My grandkids probably couldn't damage the radiators by kicking them -- they'd have to cut them somehow to damage them. But, it's a moot point anyway.

Keep the comments and suggestions coming folks -- I still have a few weeks before my house is completed to make a decision.

[cam]

I have a suggestion that may or may not work. I see that you have a denon 2803 which has crossover points lower then your typical 80 to 100hz settings. If you get the ps-1000 or ps-1200 try setting all speakers to small with a crossover setting at 60. I know that when I was trying to fine tune my old ps-1000 I thought that if I could just get my crossover setting a little lower then 80hz, which is my lowest setting, that just maybe everything would blend and sound better. I will never know now, but anyways just make sure you turn the crossover dial on your sub all the way upto 150hz so that way the subs crossover is not interfering with the bass managment from your 2803. You just might get a good result with a 60hz setting. Your mains and center are awesome but those surrounds may be suspect though. If that's the case you may want to set at 80 but then the ps-1000 may start to bloat a little. Or just go out and get a pair of 20's for the rear to.

[jasmit]

Thanks cam. That's just the kind of helpful advice that a newbie like me needs. BTW, I haven't actually purchased my receiver yet; I will be getting the Denon AVR-2805 -- not the 2803 (that was an error when I typed in my first post). But, the 2805 has the same lower crossover points, so the advice is still applicable. I've printed out your post and will keep it handy when setting up my system. Gotta wait 'til the house is completed first.

Yeah, I realize that surrounds in the ceiling are not the ideal, but I don't have side walls on which to place surrounds and I'm afraid that my grandkids will knock over surrounds on stands. I've spoken with someone who has a similar setup as mine and he assures me that his Paradigm ceiling speakers sound great. I look at it this way: I've never had an HT system. For several years now, I've been listening to two little BIC Venturi speakers powered by an old Sony receiver. Whatever my new system sounds like, I'm pretty confident it will sound worlds better than what I have now.

[poneal]

If your worried about prying fingers you might give something like this a try:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-430
That'll keep them little fingies out!

[jasmit]

If your worried about prying fingers you might give something like this a try:
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&DID=7&Partnumber=260-430
That'll keep them little fingies out!

Now, that's a thought! I didn't know such things existed. Can you put one of these metal grills over the front-firing driver of a subwoofer with no degradation of the desired sound and no vibration? I'd really like to hear from folks who have any experience with these.

[jasmit]

And how, if at all, would it affect the manufacturer's warranty? It's enough of an alteration that it might void it, huh?

[jasmit]

Disregard my last two questions; they were questions of curiosity more than anything. I don't see myself buying a subwoofer and adding metal screens.

So, with no other suggestions, I'll be choosing between: ACI Force, Hsu VTF-2 Mk2 and the Paradigm PS-1000. Whichever I choose, I'll get back to the forum with my thoughts. Thanks again to all who took the time and energy to provide input.