why so many bose bashers?

[JDiddy]

Alright people, I know Bose are way overrated and WAY overpriced but I think they sound pretty good. I used to own a pair of 301IV and I really liked them. I felt the price was to high at $328.00pr. but they had pretty good bass and decent highs. I once went to a college film class with my ex and they were showing the full monty wich was a dumb movie but they had a Bose accoustimass system, not sure wich one but it was in 1999 if that helps. Anyway I was amazed by how crystal clear the sound was. I don't remember how the bass was because theres not alot of bass in the movie but it was one of the best sound systems I have ever heard. I think if Bose could just come down in price by atleast half, more people would by them and not bash them so much. I am no newbe to home theater, I've been in it for about 7yrs now and I do know good sound. I know that alot of you guys have much better than what I have but I am very satisfied with my JBL's and yamahaRXV-1400. I can't justify spending hundreds, even thousands more for slightly better quality. I also have a seperate sound system for music, a 3000 watt crown/JBL DJ system that really rocks.

[Bryan]

1. AM specifications. There is pretting much nothing below 46Hz or over 13,300Hz and a frequency gap between 200Hz and 280Hz.

2. Lifestyle. No DTS, DD, DPL II. All in one system whose functionality is unrealized.

3. Price. Extremely overpriced. If they went for a third of the price as what they do then it would be worth considering.

4. VCS-10 center. One of the worst centers ever made.

5. Waveradio. A new generation of ripoff.

Their other models, such as the 301 or 701 are fairly decent but still overpriced. Why go with Bose when you could go with a much better system for either the same amount or less? For example, the HSU Ventriloquist/VTF-2 combo goes for $660 delivered, add on a Yamaha HTR-5760 for $475 delivered, and a Panasonic DVD-F87K for $130 delivered and you have a far better system than the Bose LS-18 system.

[JSE]

I think one of the reasons people are so opposed to bose is it's like an awakening for some. There are a lot of people who get into HT/Audio thinking Bose is the best there is. That's what all the adds tell them. Then, you have some of people who decide to listen to Bose and then do the unthinkable abd listen to other systems. They hear much better sound with more features, far better price, interchangable components and ability to upgrade to name a few. They then say, why in the world would anyone pay for Bose? It's an inferior product at a much higher price. I think some people then become a little pissed that Bose is able to get over on so many people and they feel it's their duty to warn and help as many potential Bose buyers as possible. That's why I do it. I mentioned my Wife's boss a while back. He was getting ready to get a HT for his new house and thought Bose was the way to go. I took him to an audio store and he ended up buying a full Martin Logan system. It's pretty impressive. Sure, he went to a bit of an extreme but the difference is night and day. You can spend much less than a typical Bose system and get a much better system in all aspects except maybe for size.

A quick funny story. My wife just hired a Decorator to decorate a few rooms in our house. The decorator went into our Living room where our HT is and said we had to get rid of the "BIG UGLY BLACK SPEAKERS" (Boston VR965 Towers). They just did not fit. She suggested some small speakers like Bose. MY wife had this look like maybe I would agree. My wife took one look at the disgusted angry look on my face and told the decorator they had to stay. I then told the decorator she would go before the speakers go. She looked at me with a weird look and realized I was dead serious and said "OK, the speaker stay, I can work around them." If it were me I would have fired her A$$ right there but the wife would not go for it. Needless to say, I'm watching that decorator closely.

JSE

[skeptic]

The reason people hate them is not that they are outrageously overpriced but that they are outrageously overpriced and not made in Europe.

[N. Abstentia]

Which raises the question..where are they made? Where can one buy a 2" full range thin cone paper surround half inch voice coil driver for $.69? The real shame is they slap it in a plastic Bose box and charge $1500 for it. Now that's research! Have to admire their marketing skills though.

[topspeed]

The reason people hate them is not that they are outrageously overpriced but that they are outrageously overpriced and not made in Europe.

That's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. My VR1's are made for an American company but manufactured in China so what does that mean? Are you saying audio enthusiasts are inherently Anti-American?

For the record, all of Von Schweikert's Custom line are manufactured in San Marcos, CA, Meadowlark's are made in Upstate New York, Wilson Audio in Utah, Alon in Colorado, Magnepan in Minnesota, Soundline in San Diego, Martin Logan in Kansas, Theil in Kentucky, the list goes on. If anything, good ol' Ahmericuhns DOMINATE the high end.

More to the point, I can't BELIEVE there's another f'in anti-Bose thread. Does anybody know how to pan down on their screen or do a search anymore??

[RGA]

Topspeed.

Actually it is a tribute to European Based companies who despite having to nearly DOUBLE their prices still manage to outrsell and more importantly out sound the home grown competition. B&W's 600 series is basically their low end line(along with the 300 series) and is often compared to say Paradigm Studio series. but in the UK the Studios would be priced up in the Nautilus line to make it worth while and they would be totally outclassed - so they don't go there.

Skeptic - well he seems to only like his own designs - i mean he remakes all the speakers he buys - obviously the people at AR and every other company know nothing about speaker design.

[skeptic]

"Are you saying audio enthusiasts are inherently Anti-American?"

No. I'm saying that Americans have always been suckers to buy European engineered and built equipment at price multiples of what comparable equipment engineered and built in the US or Japan cost. Look at some of the old crap from companies like Tandberg, Telefunken, Grundig, B & O, Quad (amps and preamps) and the list just goes on. There were some European companies willing to compete on the US market pricewise like Wharfedale and Tannoy but they were few and far between. I lived in Europe for two years and saw that their domestic market was equally ripped off an not just by electronics equpment makers. High VAT (value added taxes) and protective tariffs (at least when I lived there) and no real sales or discounts then. Is their equipment crap? Consider that a Thompson television set bought new from a department store blew up three times in my house fortunately under warranty. Without the kinds of liability laws we have here, its a wonder more people aren't killed by their junk. My friend almost was by a defective electric blanket. Do I consider European equipment in general inferior to American, Canadian, and Japanese built equipment? Not all of it but in general yes. Is their production costs outrageous? Yes. Strong Euro, high wages in many places, tremendous social benefits and taxes, and a protected internal market. Small inefficient domestic production techniques as well and a level of management skill notoriously inferior to their North American and Japanese counterparts. Generalizations are dangerous but to me, made in Europe is almost a code phrase for; stay away, high prices, poor quality, awful value.

[topspeed]

RGA,
The exchange rates are so incredibly screwed up right now, I'll bet American speakers that are expensive here are absolutely outrageous across the pond.

Really, what Euros sell in decent volume outside of B&W, Dynaudio, JM Lab and Sonus Faber? Sure you've got Mission (went a year w/o a US distributor, didn't seem to be missed), Harbeth, Castle, a recently resurrected Dali, and boutique manufacturers like AN, Avant Garde and MBL but I'd wager their sales units are about equal with American boutique outfits. As far as the Euros "out sounding" their American counterparts, that's personal opinion, nothing more. This is coming from a guy listening to an all Brit rig right now. Seriously, I could care less where anything is manufactured (OK, except France, but we won't go there) as long as it sounds the way I want it to, I'll buy it. The only bias I have is against crappy sound.

[RGA]

Topspeed is not big anywhere even in Europe - They have one dealer in London. They have the same display approach there as well which will limit their number - they are very widely distributed on a world wide level though - and kits help increase that.

Where Skeptic is right is on labour. At least from what I was told by my dealer Peter Qvortrup of AN is not happy with employees that don't show up for days don't barely do anything and then get paid high wages because of their SYSTEM in England - one of many reasons he's moving stuff to Canada - it's not cheap labour here either but you don't fall three months behind on catching up orders either. And the wages are still considerably less here than Europe. And in AN's case the speaker was largely designed in the US. Just made a lot better by a Dane. Skeptic is unfortunately living in a time warp of 1982 - B&W and other Brits are actually making good speakers - IMO better than most of the dreck sold here. Yes exceptions are abound but Ameria had their hayday - and got the snot beat out of them where the likes of JBL and Bose are the American Pride and Joy. Americans know how to sell it and package it - QC who cares - which is why the likes JBL and even Klipsch are a shadow of what they once were. Now they're relegated to Costco like bargain stores with a sound mostly to match.

[ibhim]

JSE wrote "You can spend much less than a typical Bose system and get a much better system in all aspects except maybe for size. " And I fully agree. Currently I am doing A-B inhome demo's to convince the wife of the first part of the sentence. (Thanks Sams Club for the Bose Accumass 10II with 1 yr return policy and 90 days interest free :D ) While I know towers are out of the question, trying to move to small bookshelfs (Paradigm Titan or Mini Monitors on stand) and dipole rears (she freaked when suggested cutting hole in wall for in-wall rears, but may still be an option).

Now to the last part of the sentence "except size". It seems that size doesn't matter...unless you are talking about speakers! ;) If size does matter, what alternatives to Bose are realistic. Klipsh seems too bright. How about NHT 5.1; Polk 6700; AR 6? Suggestions would be appreciated.

[JSE]

JSE wrote "You can spend much less than a typical Bose system and get a much better system in all aspects except maybe for size. " And I fully agree. Currently I am doing A-B inhome demo's to convince the wife of the first part of the sentence. (Thanks Sams Club for the Bose Accumass 10II with 1 yr return policy and 90 days interest free :D ) While I know towers are out of the question, trying to move to small bookshelfs (Paradigm Titan or Mini Monitors on stand) and dipole rears (she freaked when suggested cutting hole in wall for in-wall rears, but may still be an option).

Now to the last part of the sentence "except size". It seems that size doesn't matter...unless you are talking about speakers! ;) If size does matter, what alternatives to Bose are realistic. Klipsh seems too bright. How about NHT 5.1; Polk 6700; AR 6? Suggestions would be appreciated.


Although not quite as small as Bose, the HSU Ventriloquist (sp?) system seems to be pretty impressive for it's size and comes with a far better sub than the Bose Sub thingy. I have never listened to it but it appears to get really good reviews and HSU is a good company that puts out quality products. You might also look at Cambridge Sounds Works. They have some fairly small speakers as well. In general, most major speaker companies have small size surround sound packages, but not normally as small as Bose.

JSE

[topspeed]

Topspeed is not big anywhere even in Europe -Hey now, I'll have you know that I have a huge following in Germany...right there with David Hasselhoff!


Yes exceptions are abound but Ameria had their hayday - and got the snot beat out of them where the likes of JBL and Bose are the American Pride and Joy. Americans know how to sell it and package it - QC who cares - which is why the likes JBL and even Klipsch are a shadow of what they once were. Now they're relegated to Costco like bargain stores with a sound mostly to match.Again, this is personal opinion. JBL's K series is supposedly a very good speaker. Of course, they're Canadian anyway (Harmon Int'l) so maybe we'll just consider them NORTH American, eh?

Bose has to be respected for their business model, and if that isn't American, I don't know what is. While their speakers are questionable, his savvy isn't.

Saying American QC is gone is horsesh!t. VSA, Thiel, Meadowlark, and ML speakers are all beautifully crafted. Even the mass market Polks are well built. Hey, at least they aren't coming in vinyl wrapped boxes like Paradigm's Monitor and Studio's. And then theres...

Look, we're never going to agree on speakers, origin, or whatever and who cares anyway? The main point is this:

DO WE REALLY NEED ANOTHER BOSE THREAD!!! AAAUUUUUUUUGHHHH!!!!!

[RGA]

:D True but hey we have changed the subject away from Bose. The Paradigms use real wood don't they?

[ibhim]

Paradigm's Studio's are finished in a wood veneer, however the "rosewood" is actually walnut veneer stained to look like rosewood.

The Monitor and Performance lines have wooden boxes but are covered in laminate (immitation wood). Additionally, uncertain if the entire Performance line or the Titan and smaller has an injection molded (i.e. plastic) back rather than wood.

Then I look at Polk with their mass market RTi line having real wood veneer - if only their grill didn't have the distracting gray plastic trim. Plus, the nighmare surrounds with the clamshell design rather than the increasingly standard trapezoid design. Is it too much to ask that the speakers blend in rather than bring attention to themselves? That is where Bose excells and Polk went in the opposite direction.

[RGA]

Paradigm's Studio's are finished in a wood veneer, however the "rosewood" is actually walnut veneer stained to look like rosewood.

The Monitor and Performance lines have wooden boxes but are covered in laminate (immitation wood). Additionally, uncertain if the entire Performance line or the Titan and smaller has an injection molded (i.e. plastic) back rather than wood.

Then I look at Polk with their mass market RTi line having real wood veneer - if only their grill didn't have the distracting gray plastic trim. Plus, the nighmare surrounds with the clamshell design rather than the increasingly standard trapezoid design. Is it too much to ask that the speakers blend in rather than bring attention to themselves? That is where Bose excells and Polk went in the opposite direction.

You don't know what the actual wood is made from though do you. An engineer on another forum was saying you want the speakers to be made Good materials. In response to good Ply wood "No internal voids and far better overall material quality.
It really is the only thing, other than solid hardwoods or Corian type materials, that should be used for quality speaker cabinets."

And I can tell you first hand that the idfference between the same speaker made out of chipboard and Ply is startling. Though the former was still very good - i'm glad the maker decided to dump chipboard.

But my little B&W DM 302s were a molded plastic and sounded quite good for $225US. Obviously this quote was from a poster referring to more expensive speakers.

Arggh just listen and decide - it's easier.

[nusiclover]

A quick funny story. My wife just hired a Decorator to decorate a few rooms in our house. The decorator went into our Living room where our HT is and said we had to get rid of the "BIG UGLY BLACK SPEAKERS" (Boston VR965 Towers). They just did not fit. She suggested some small speakers like Bose. MY wife had this look like maybe I would agree. My wife took one look at the disgusted angry look on my face and told the decorator they had to stay. I then told the decorator she would go before the speakers go. She looked at me with a weird look and realized I was dead serious and said "OK, the speaker stay, I can work around them." If it were me I would have fired her A$$ right there but the wife would not go for it. Needless to say, I'm watching that decorator closely.

JSE

JSE- i must say that your story is pretty funny. i was looking at cartman and i was visually seeing Cartman yellin at the decorator "b*tch, you leave my speakers there...and get back to work!"
needless to say, your story made me laugh my ass off.
as with bose, i agree that you are doing the right thing. the other day a girlfriend of my gf was over and was saying that her roomate had a totally expensive stereo system. so naturally i asked what speakers he had. she proudly said bose. i kept my mouth shut becuase i already knew it was too late.

[nusiclover]

for all marketing and corpoate sales minded people. this is the number one reason BOSE is so darn popular (and like some noted, the reason that they are the first "hifi" speakers everyone comes across when they decide they like music reproduction).
BOSE is a smart company. Smart meaning they know how to make money. The KEY is to spend equal or more amounts on advertising and marketing as they do on production. This is simple marketing 101 people. BOSE is the master of marketing and have been for two decades. This is how they have so much money to play around with peoples heads. They were smart from the beginning and have built a very succesful company. I bet we'd all feel a bit different about BOSE had we bought stocks back in the 80's. Did you already know that most Hollywood Blockbusters that we all flock to actually spend more $$$$ on marketing their movie then they do on production? THis is the way to get millions to see what can be said are horribly aweful movies. And i guarantee every single one of us has walked out of a theater feeling we got ripped off because it was soo bad and NOTHING like all the previews and posters and billboards and reviews and interviews and MTV etc have made it out to be. BOSE is not dissimilar in this aspect.

[Woochifer]

A quick funny story. My wife just hired a Decorator to decorate a few rooms in our house. The decorator went into our Living room where our HT is and said we had to get rid of the "BIG UGLY BLACK SPEAKERS" (Boston VR965 Towers). They just did not fit. She suggested some small speakers like Bose. MY wife had this look like maybe I would agree. My wife took one look at the disgusted angry look on my face and told the decorator they had to stay. I then told the decorator she would go before the speakers go. She looked at me with a weird look and realized I was dead serious and said "OK, the speaker stay, I can work around them." If it were me I would have fired her A$$ right there but the wife would not go for it. Needless to say, I'm watching that decorator closely.

JSE

I feel your pain. You're not the first one who's told a tale like that on this board. Aside from bombarding us with infomercials, Bose must also have some deal going with all these interior decorators. Either that or they've never gone out and priced out alternatives. Either way, their priority is having some look in mind, regardless of how functional the room actually is when it's finished. Given where your functional priorities are, it's good that you put your foot down. Heaven forbid if this board is going to turn into a daily therapy session of woe about how you caved in and now have to live with a Lifestyle 50!

Sometimes I think that decorators must have something against music and movies! Ever notice that the pictures in those home decorating magazines typically show NO audio equipment whatsoever? MAYBE you'll see a plasma screen on the wall. They'll typically have coffee table books or magazines lying around, but you never see CDs or DVDs anywhere in those shots. And if they actually show a speaker, ever notice that those speakers HAVE NO CABLES attached? Even in audio magazine ads, this seems to be the case.

[Woochifer]

Paradigm's Studio's are finished in a wood veneer, however the "rosewood" is actually walnut veneer stained to look like rosewood.

The veneer option was available for the Studio v.2 series, but Paradigm eliminated the wood veneer option for the v.3 versions, which are all laminate. Supposedly, less than 10% of all the Studio v.2 speakers that Paradigm sold had the wood veneer, so the demand simply wasn't there to carry that option over to the v.3 series. Only the Signature series now has real wood veneer (Paradigm subcontracts with the same Italian cabinet maker that Sonus Faber uses to produce the cabinets for the Sigs). The Studio series cabinets are all made from MDF, while the Monitor and Performance series models are made out of less dense particleboards.

[Woochifer]

Skeptic is unfortunately living in a time warp of 1982 - B&W and other Brits are actually making good speakers - IMO better than most of the dreck sold here. Yes exceptions are abound but Ameria had their hayday - and got the snot beat out of them where the likes of JBL and Bose are the American Pride and Joy. Americans know how to sell it and package it - QC who cares - which is why the likes JBL and even Klipsch are a shadow of what they once were. Now they're relegated to Costco like bargain stores with a sound mostly to match.

Huh? What planet are YOU living on? "got the snot beat out of them where the likes of JBL and Bose are the American Pride and Joy"? "relegated to Costco like bargain stores with sound mostly to match"? Last time I was at Costco, I didn't see any Magnepan, Vandersteen, Thiel, Martin Logan, Wilson Audio, Von Schweikert, Innersound models being sold there, or even JBL or Klipsch speakers for that matter. If you're going to make an irresponsible generalization like that, at least get your facts straight. Who the hell considers JBL and Bose the "Pride and Joy" of America? I certainly don't, and I was born a few exits down the 101 from where the JBLs are made. You're not even from here, so who the hell are you to say what ANYBODY in the lower 48 takes pride in? Your propensity to reckless stereotyping seems to be expanding beyond the rhelm of reality and into pure fantasy.

And if you're going to compare B&W and other Brits to the "dreck" sold here, also keep the cost in mind. The lowest level B&W model I've seen sold around here costs $300. Comparably priced models from Boston, Infinity, JBL, Klipsch, Polk, etc. might not sound as good to you, but that hardly makes them "dreck" or not worthy of consideration. In fact, quite a few people might prefer them to the B&Ws, and I doubt that it's all about the packaging and the salesmanship.

[topspeed]

Has anyone else notice our illustrious poster has yet to chime in? Hmmm, can anyone else say Troll. With that in mind, can we please let this and all anti-bose threads die the death they deserve? Seriously, isn't about time we started another ss vs. tubes war anyway?

[JSE]

I feel your pain. You're not the first one who's told a tale like that on this board. Aside from bombarding us with infomercials, Bose must also have some deal going with all these interior decorators. Either that or they've never gone out and priced out alternatives. Either way, their priority is having some look in mind, regardless of how functional the room actually is when it's finished. Given where your functional priorities are, it's good that you put your foot down. Heaven forbid if this board is going to turn into a daily therapy session of woe about how you caved in and now have to live with a Lifestyle 50!

Sometimes I think that decorators must have something against music and movies! Ever notice that the pictures in those home decorating magazines typically show NO audio equipment whatsoever? MAYBE you'll see a plasma screen on the wall. They'll typically have coffee table books or magazines lying around, but you never see CDs or DVDs anywhere in those shots. And if they actually show a speaker, ever notice that those speakers HAVE NO CABLES attached? Even in audio magazine ads, this seems to be the case.


Oh yea, It got better today. Her A$$ is fired if I have anything to do with it, but of course I don't. :rolleyes:

I was talking to my wife today and she said that the Decorator called her at work today and asked her about getting rid of the speakers or moving them to another room in favor of "something smaller". That Ho-Bag, Skanky, Back-Stabbing Biaaatch is going behind my back and trying to use my wife against me. My wife agrees with me but she won't let me can her either. She thinks it is kindof funny. Funny MY A$$! Also, get this. The "decorator" also asked my wife if we would be OK with putting the mains against the wall 90 degree to the right of the couch about 10 feet way? What the? I calmly said no and explained to my wife the whole surround thing, not the pound your right ear with sound thing. My wife told me she said no and actually explained to the Decorator the reasoning for having the speakers were they are for surround sound. My God, some of this stuff actually took with my wife. It almost brought a tear to my eye. Anyway, if you guys see a story on the nightly news about a man who offed a Interior Decorator, it was not me! OK?

JSE

[RGA]

Has anyone else notice our illustrious poster has yet to chime in? Hmmm, can anyone else say Troll. With that in mind, can we please let this and all anti-bose threads die the death they deserve? Seriously, isn't about time we started another ss vs. tubes war anyway?

There's a war - the good tube amps killed em already right? Oh I would rather just see Bose as a company die out.

Why don't people read what I actually say. Costco -LIKE bargain storers is not Costco now is it?

And I said exceptions are abound - umm most of which were mentioned - JBL is dreck - Bose is Dreck - The lower priced Infinities and Advents and Cerwin Vega's I heard several years ago ARE all dreck. It should be painfully obvious CV is about package and decibals as sales tools. Of course some will like a certain model of an entry level B&W or an expensive B&W. Some would take a Cerwin Vega D9(or new replacement) over the Paradigm Studio 100 too - and the point is what? Some people wouldn't know an oboe from a cello either.

[Woochifer]

Oh yea, It got better today. Her A$$ is fired if I have anything to do with it, but of course I don't. :rolleyes:

I was talking to my wife today and she said that the Decorator called her at work today and asked her about getting rid of the speakers or moving them to another room in favor of "something smaller". That Ho-Bag, Skanky, Back-Stabbing Biaaatch is going behind my back and trying to use my wife against me. My wife agrees with me but she won't let me can her either. She thinks it is kindof funny. Funny MY A$$! Also, get this. The "decorator" also asked my wife if we would be OK with putting the mains against the wall 90 degree to the right of the couch about 10 feet way? What the? I calmly said no and explained to my wife the whole surround thing, not the pound your right ear with sound thing. My wife told me she said no and actually explained to the Decorator the reasoning for having the speakers were they are for surround sound. My God, some of this stuff actually took with my wife. It almost brought a tear to my eye. Anyway, if you guys see a story on the nightly news about a man who offed a Interior Decorator, it was not me! OK?

JSE


Oh man! Divide and conquer conspiracies too? I thought that decorating entailed a little bit of painting, a couple of new end tables, and some miscellaneous grab bag stuff from Pier One Imports. All this cloak and dagger stuff is more like spy novel material than Discovery or HGTV channel stuff.

Unfortunately, wives are usually fine with sacrificing that last bit of surround placement accuracy for aesthetics. I got my speakers in the ITU reference 5.1 alignment, but my wife says that she wants something like a screen to block the surround speakers from view when entering the room. She wasn't too sympathetic to my protests about how they would amplify the port noise or distort the surround imaging. And she's also insisting that I put up some kind of enclosed storage in the corner for our CD and DVD collections. Apparently, the idea of installing bass traps in the corner instead isn't getting too much traction either. When the latest Magnolia Hi-Fi catalog arrived, it featured the wall-mounted Martin Logan Frescos on the cover. My wife asked why not switch out the surround speakers for those? My explanation about timbre-matching was not persuasive, but the $1,000 cost (each) and the fact that I'll need to buy a new amp to power those things was enough to defer the discussion this time.

http://www.martinlogan.com/images/fresco_zoom1.jpg

But, maybe you can turn this situation around to your benefit. I mean, if your decorator's pulling out all the stops to goad you into new speakers, why not get new speakers? Just agree that the new speakers will NOT come from Bose! View it as an opportunity to do an upgrade without catching the usual flak about why you would "need" new speakers? I mean, those new wall-mounted models like the Martin Logan Fresco or Vienna Acoustics Schonberg series or alternatives from Paradigm, B&W, and Def Tech could very well fit the bill nicely. Your wife and decorator will think that you actually saw the merits of their way, when in actuality you're just using it as an excuse to indulge in some upgradeitis. Perfect scenario and satisfies any kind Machiavellian revenge motif.

[Woochifer]

Why don't people read what I actually say. Costco -LIKE bargain storers is not Costco now is it?

We ARE reading what you actually say, that's why we can't believe some of the nonsensical statements that you're writing. If a Costco-LIKE bargain store is NOT Costco, why bring Costco into the discussion if that's not what you meant to say?


And I said exceptions are abound - umm most of which were mentioned - JBL is dreck - Bose is Dreck - The lower priced Infinities and Advents and Cerwin Vega's I heard several years ago ARE all dreck. It should be painfully obvious CV is about package and decibals as sales tools. Of course some will like a certain model of an entry level B&W or an expensive B&W. Some would take a Cerwin Vega D9(or new replacement) over the Paradigm Studio 100 too - and the point is what? Some people wouldn't know an oboe from a cello either.

The only thing painfully obvious is all these wild generalizations that you're pulling out of your backside to fit some preconceived stereotype that you have of Americans in general. A few examples that may or may not be correct won't make those kinds of generalities any less agregious or false. When are you going to accept the idea that consumers and audio companies here don't neatly fit these kinds of black and white typologies? The people and commerce represented are far more diverse that you seem ready to acknowledge.

[RGA]

We ARE reading what you actually say, that's why we can't believe some of the nonsensical statements that you're writing. If a Costco-LIKE bargain store is NOT Costco, why bring Costco into the discussion if that's not what you meant to say?



The only thing painfully obvious is all these wild generalizations that you're pulling out of your backside to fit some preconceived stereotype that you have of Americans in general. A few examples that may or may not be correct won't make those kinds of generalities any less agregious or false. When are you going to accept the idea that consumers and audio companies here don't neatly fit these kinds of black and white typologies? The people and commerce represented are far more diverse that you seem ready to acknowledge.

Firstly, I said Costco like stores because people are more aware of big box chains like a Costco or a Best Buy or Circuit City (the latter two to me are the same kind of stores but more audio focussed - but they also sell dishwashers so...

I could say A&B Sound or Fields but most Americans who post here would not understand what that is - and in fact Best Buy and Circuit City are not in Canada - so to the benefit of some who don't go to the US, I figured Costco who is on both sides of the border would be an easier term for people to get. I give credit to the intelligence of the reader to know what I mean by a Big Box Chain/Costco like outlet. The only person who does not have the ability to figure out a generality here seems to be you. Big Box chain = Future Shop, Best Buy, Circuit City and the stereo department of Costco(at least the Costco's in my area). It would also apply to London Drugs which I don't think is in the US., and I suppose your Tweeter oulets of which I have never been so I would not know.

Firstly, i find it interesting that your quick to attack RGA but not stupid statements like Skeptic made INITIALLY about British Gear. Your bias is obvious.

Mate I could care less if you think JBL and Bose are better than B&W - I don't care if the general public thinks that to be the case - the general public likes Jerry Springer and half of them vote for the solve the worlds problems with Jesus and guns Republican party. What is best is not based on some consensus theory in a stats class.

I state JBL is no longer inhigh end dealer ships and not likely to rebound - the Brits and Canadians have largely taken over the market. Yes there is Martin Logan but even they are slipping from sight in Canada very quickly and someone said they were in one of those afformentioned big box chains. Totem here has left the high end outlets for A&B Sound. This is a sign generally that they're in financial trouble because no one was buying it against other high end brands. The higher volume increases sales - but for how long. Cerwin Vega was the big brand at Future Shop here(Equivelant of Best Buy) in the late 1980's early 1990's. That is no longer the case and CV is all but dissapeared from our market.

What geenralizations - the biggest two american speaker makers are Bose and JBL. The ML's/Meadowlarks of the world are certainly the exceptions and not the majority of American speakers. B&W is the number one Brand in Europe the biggest selling Brand in GB. This does not mean that every British Speaker is better than every American speaker - but then I never said that.

But if we look at the biggest sellers B&W is generally vastly superior to JBL and Bose. Of course the Marketing engines at Harman are turning the tides of perception if not at actually making a better speaker - Harman has learnt from Bose very well but seducing a slightly more educated group with techy lingo. And since most will spend more time reading literature about products than actually listening to the stuff it is quite shrewd indeed.

[skeptic]

"What geenralizations - the biggest two american speaker makers are Bose and JBL"

I figured you were more savvy that that RGA. You know very well that Ford Motor Company makes the Probe, and the Lincoln Towne Car....and Jaguar...and Volvo. And it has a hand in Mazda. Different brand names and products for different segments of a market all under one vast automotive manufacturer. JBL is owned by Harman Intermational. Among the brands they sell, you can include Tannoy. You can also include Revel and Infinity. Under the JBL brand they make a wide range of products for the Northridge series to the Studio Series (recently discontinued) to thei TiK series which has some resemblance to Revel. They also make a wide assortment of professional products for installation in sound reinforcement and other systems and some exotics you've probably never heard of. With 2 billion dollars a year in sales, Harman ranks among the largest "speaker manufacturers" with products for many different markets all over the world. They could buy Peter Q@#$%$ for lunch and sell him at tea time and he'd never know what hit him. Anything he's thought of, you can bet they looked into a long time ago and probably rejected.

[RGA]

Skeptic I thought you were smarter than that.

Harman is so big and could give a rats ass if what they build is any good or not. What they care about is maximizing profits at ANY cost - which is usually shows up in the products - it's MUCH cheaper to have some technobabble to sell rather thatn use quality drivers and parts and cabinets.

The last thing Ford wants to build is a good reliable vehicle - that would mean you would not have to continually get it serviced(Fix Or Repair Daily - Found On Road Dead). Pay careful to those funny little sayings because in fact they came about for very damn good reason. And Jaguar has always sucked donkey balls no matter who owned them. And Ford certainly cares nothing if you survive or the police survive - whichever model doesn't blow up on a rear ender is the model for me but it seems like they're still currently plagued with the same issue they had in the 1970's - slow learners but hey profits are maximized.

Luckily there is a Linux maker who is pea sized(But refused to be bought out) but makes an OS that works better than the mega trillionkabillionaires at MS who build the worst possible crap so you will have to buy the new and improved piece of junk OS every 2 years which is a re-worked version of the first piece of crap they put out.

Harman didn't throw out the design - after all they're too buisy sacrificing sound to build neat LOOKING gear - and to use real wood and a driver that costs more than 35 cents oh come on that means that while customers would get the world's best boxed speakers Harman would have to cut their profits drastically.

The fact that that Q is building a seemingly simple two way speaker system that with one single 8 inch woofer can do what most designers can't do with several 12 inch woofers in box sizes 5 times bigger - well Harman would not be able to sell you a dedicated subwoofer now would they? And then another one later when you realize that 40hz isn't really Sub anything.

But enjoy attacking Audio Note - for those of us that have heard it we're happily waiting for Hamran anything to build anything that can touch an Audio Note anything at any price. That day is not now so please do find a Harman speaker that can beat the AN E. Peter will gladly have you and the speaker over to shoot out anything you would care to choose. B&W designers already took him up on this - so Peter I'm sure wouldn't be too afraid of the folks at Harman.

[JSE]

Skeptic I thought you were smarter than that.

Harman is so big and could give a rats ass if what they build is any good or not. What they care about is maximizing profits at ANY cost - which is usually shows up in the products - it's MUCH cheaper to have some technobabble to sell rather thatn use quality drivers and parts and cabinets.

The last thing Ford wants to build is a good reliable vehicle - that would mean you would not have to continually get it serviced(Fix Or Repair Daily - Found On Road Dead). Pay careful to those funny little sayings because in fact they came about for very damn good reason. And Jaguar has always sucked donkey balls no matter who owned them. And Ford certainly cares nothing if you survive or the police survive - whichever model doesn't blow up on a rear ender is the model for me but it seems like they're still currently plagued with the same issue they had in the 1970's - slow learners but hey profits are maximized.

Luckily there is a Linux maker who is pea sized(But refused to be bought out) but makes an OS that works better than the mega trillionkabillionaires at MS who build the worst possible crap so you will have to buy the new and improved piece of junk OS every 2 years which is a re-worked version of the first piece of crap they put out.

Harman didn't throw out the design - after all they're too buisy sacrificing sound to build neat LOOKING gear - and to use real wood and a driver that costs more than 35 cents oh come on that means that while customers would get the world's best boxed speakers Harman would have to cut their profits drastically.

The fact that that Q is building a seemingly simple two way speaker system that with one single 8 inch woofer can do what most designers can't do with several 12 inch woofers in box sizes 5 times bigger - well Harman would not be able to sell you a dedicated subwoofer now would they? And then another one later when you realize that 40hz isn't really Sub anything.

But enjoy attacking Audio Note - for those of us that have heard it we're happily waiting for Hamran anything to build anything that can touch an Audio Note anything at any price. That day is not now so please do find a Harman speaker that can beat the AN E. Peter will gladly have you and the speaker over to shoot out anything you would care to choose. B&W designers already took him up on this - so Peter I'm sure wouldn't be too afraid of the folks at Harman.


RGA, why are you harshly attacking Harman? It seems like you are basing your wild generalizations on their lower end products. Their K2 series are said to be some of the best HT theater speakers you can buy and have received very good reviews. I doubt anyone, except maybe you, would say the K2 series is crap with no quality control. When did you last listen to the K2 series?

Also, have you listened to Revel speakers? I have listened to the F30 on several occasions and I must say that I was thouroughly impressed. These are some of the best speakers I have heard to date within reasonable prices (less than $5k let's say). I have never listened to Audio Notes so maybe they are "better" speakers but when it comes down to it, there is no best speaker. I know we all get tired of saying this but, the best speaker is the one you like. Period.

You've got the lay off the wild generalizations before you become the old eccentric weird guy that nobody listens to or become known as the Audio Note Shill (sp?) The more and more I read your posts the less weight I give your opinions. I know you could care less that I feel this way, but maybe I am not the only one and maybe I have a point?

JSE

[Woochifer]

Firstly, I said Costco like stores because people are more aware of big box chains like a Costco or a Best Buy or Circuit City (the latter two to me are the same kind of stores but more audio focussed - but they also sell dishwashers so...

Which only goes to show how ignorant your original comment is if you think that Costco should get lumped together with Best Buy or Circuit City. The brands that these chains stock, their product mix, their average store size, their per-store sales volumes, their price points, the business-to-business transactions, market coverage, etc. are very different. Try shopping at a Costco or read their financial statements sometime if you don't believe me.


The only person who does not have the ability to figure out a generality here seems to be you. Big Box chain = Future Shop, Best Buy, Circuit City and the stereo department of Costco(at least the Costco's in my area). It would also apply to London Drugs which I don't think is in the US., and I suppose your Tweeter oulets of which I have never been so I would not know.

No, the only person who can't make a generality that makes any sense or bears any resemblance to reality seems to be you. If big box chains are on your attack list, why not include supermarkets that sell boomboxes in that definition as well?

In reality, Costcos and similar warehouse clubs have more in common with supermarkets than a Best Buy or Circuit City. Warehouse clubs generate about 45% of their revenue from groceries, while supermarkets generate 75% from groceries. Both types of stores generate LESS THAN 0.1% of their revenue from audio equipment sales.


Firstly, i find it interesting that your quick to attack RGA but not stupid statements like Skeptic made INITIALLY about British Gear. Your bias is obvious.

Okay, you exposed me for what I am! Yes, I admit it! I AM AN AMERICAN! Gosh, such an evil thing to be biased towards my country, especially when some foreigner decides that he knows more about the country that I call home than I do.


Mate I could care less if you think JBL and Bose are better than B&W - I don't care if the general public thinks that to be the case - the general public likes Jerry Springer and half of them vote for the solve the worlds problems with Jesus and guns Republican party. What is best is not based on some consensus theory in a stats class.

And mangling yet another hackneyed set of tired stereotypes about the American public does not forward your argument any further either. Don't need a stats class to see stereotyping for what it is.


I state JBL is no longer inhigh end dealer ships and not likely to rebound - the Brits and Canadians have largely taken over the market. Yes there is Martin Logan but even they are slipping from sight in Canada very quickly and someone said they were in one of those afformentioned big box chains. Totem here has left the high end outlets for A&B Sound. This is a sign generally that they're in financial trouble because no one was buying it against other high end brands. The higher volume increases sales - but for how long. Cerwin Vega was the big brand at Future Shop here(Equivelant of Best Buy) in the late 1980's early 1990's. That is no longer the case and CV is all but dissapeared from our market.

How many times do we have to go over this JBL topic? JBL makes plenty of higher end models that are sold overseas but not marketed in North America. JBL once had a high end dealer network, but their own marketing decisions to go into the mass merchandise channels alienated independent retail store owners to the point that they dropped the brand in droves. The Canadian brands entered the market just as JBL was losing their dealer network, and carved out exclusive territories for their dealers, which keeps the dealers loyal. One of my local dealers that formerly carried JBL still likes their product (he's heard the models that are sold overseas), but absolutely will not deal with them because of the preferential deals they cut with larger competitors.

Trying to concoct some generality about American speakers based on a few examples (and what's your source of information abot ML and Totem?) is pretty nonsensical. You seem to have forgotten about Polk, Klipsch, Infinity, Boston, Def Tech, Vandersteen, Magnepan, and a slew of other brands that remain very well established in specialty audio stores, especially at the entry level. Magnepan is the most frequently owned speaker among Stereophile subscribers, and Klipsch claims to be the top selling specialty speaker brand.


What geenralizations - the biggest two american speaker makers are Bose and JBL. The ML's/Meadowlarks of the world are certainly the exceptions and not the majority of American speakers. B&W is the number one Brand in Europe the biggest selling Brand in GB. This does not mean that every British Speaker is better than every American speaker - but then I never said that.

Are you sure that B&W is the #1 selling brand in Europe? Bose and JBL are the top sellers in the world, so it's not just Americans that buy them. But, even then I doubt that those brands alone make up even a majority of American speakers. Klipsch also claims to be #1 in the specialty market, which excludes the mass merchandise chains like BB and CC.


But if we look at the biggest sellers B&W is generally vastly superior to JBL and Bose. Of course the Marketing engines at Harman are turning the tides of perception if not at actually making a better speaker - Harman has learnt from Bose very well but seducing a slightly more educated group with techy lingo. And since most will spend more time reading literature about products than actually listening to the stuff it is quite shrewd indeed.

Techy lingo? Oh, I guess that the white papers on Harman's website about room acoustics and subwoofer calibration are nothing more than marketing nonsense, and people who read them spend all their time reading and not listening. Since I've read those papers and actually used a lot of the information in my own setup, I guess it must be true that I am one of those people who "spend more time reading literature about products than actually listening to the stuff." Stick to what you do know rather than trying to impose your negativity on how you think others spend their time. How people spend their time might actually surprise you if you're not making presumptions about them first.

[RGA]

RGA, why are you harshly attacking Harman? It seems like you are basing your wild generalizations on their lower end products. Their K2 series are said to be some of the best HT theater speakers you can buy and have received very good reviews. I doubt anyone, except maybe you, would say the K2 series is crap with no quality control. When did you last listen to the K2 series?

Also, have you listened to Revel speakers? I have listened to the F30 on several occasions and I must say that I was thouroughly impressed. These are some of the best speakers I have heard to date within reasonable prices (less than $5k let's say). I have never listened to Audio Notes so maybe they are "better" speakers but when it comes down to it, there is no best speaker. I know we all get tired of saying this but, the best speaker is the one you like. Period.

You've got the lay off the wild generalizations before you become the old eccentric weird guy that nobody listens to or become known as the Audio Note Shill (sp?) The more and more I read your posts the less weight I give your opinions. I know you could care less that I feel this way, but maybe I am not the only one and maybe I have a point?

JSE

Back it up - There is JBL and then there is JBL and then there is JBL Britain and JBL Pro. With B&W they also make a $40k statement speaker - and no one is going to mistake it's excellence for the DM 303. But the 303 is a very nice entry level speaker. JBL has made expensivve statement products but for the average Joe they turn out crap. Of course this is just my opinion and you have every right to have a different one from mine but please - I'm allowed to have one.Wht bothered me was when i was in England and saw some of the stuff being sold there it was an eye opener. GOOD separates from Marantz Pionner and even JVC. The latter shocked me because here the stuff from JVC is utter dung filled crap pellets. And the prices for the unit there was not out of whack. Why were they selling such good products from the same brands in Europe and such utter disposable trash here? Is it that they can't as easliy sell garbage there? I don't know - they still had some rubbish but it didn't seem as bad as what Futureshop carries here for what to me is a huge price tag.

Revel I give you(largely because I know of no dealers in Britsh Columbia selling them - then again I have not really looked either) and I didn't intentionally lump Revel into the mix. There are exceptions.

But you have to consider the intentional LINKING of name recognition of many manufacturers. Wharfedale was a big name all the way through the 1980s making some very good respectable speakers - Wharfedale since ~1992 has been bought and sold at least twice - it has nothing to do with what it once was. The interim company practically ruined them putting out absolute trash - now they are owned buy the same group who owns Quad and Mission.

JVC fell apart and the name was bought by Matsu****a who also owns Panasonic and I believe Toshiba. Some get better some don't.

The issue isn't that a given American speaker is bad or not you will find examples good and bad from most any company and even WITHIN a given product line. The B&W 602.5 is just stupid IMO - it's not really bad but it's not great and no better than a cheaper model within the 600 line. In fact some would argue that the OLD B&W Matrix series of loudspeakers IS better than their new line of Nautilus loudspeakers.

The reason I get on Bose or JBL is because they CAN build great loudspeakers for the consumer but they don't. JBL sells the good stuff overseas and we get the rubbish. I don't like companies who do that - it's just me maybe - I mean if you're a small company like Reference 3a it's tough for them to build cheap good speakers - JBL SHOULD be building far and away the best cheap loudspeakers in the world - but profits are profits and to me the sell at best mediocrity. They have a few statement speakers for latrge dollars to show people how great they are - but it's not trickled down - the K is a horn for heaven sake which is weird since Tannoy is a sub company with their horn Winchester flagship.

As for Audio Note I would dearly love them to get popular because that will FORCE the competition who have way bigger and deeper pockets who SHOULD be building as good or better for less to actually do it. This would benefit you and me because then I could get another set for a lot less money if a B&W with their resources were to build them we could probably get them for half the price. But have you seen the way they look? Do you think the average consumer is going to buy a speaker with only 2 drivers in a square plain box? B&W is not stupid - it's a business - And they make good speakers compared to most of the competition - so it's not like they're Bose who sell sewer sound for a lot of money.

I'm usually being attacked on Audio Note by people who have not heard the gear - people ask me a question about them I answer. The idea of a forum is to get people to try smaller things. Chances are they are not sold in your town so the point is moot - I am a believer that you have to listen before you buy. But if someone on here who was a big B&W fan and so was/am I and I knew they liked kinda what I liked went into a store and was amazed by some no name brand i would want that person to say guess what listened to X brand today and you should - check it out. On another forum people are raving about a company called Green Mountain Audio. I mean if it wasn't for them I would have never heard of them. If I was out shopping for speakers and saw that brand I'd say gee let me hear these they're getting some buzz. Otherwise it would be an ugly box in a sea of other boxes that people might pass by.

There is no gaurantee that people would like either GMA or AN or nOhr or even Reference 3a's MM De Capo which I was telling people to listen to well before ANY of the reviews came out. And while they were not perfect - nothing is - a lot more people are at least giving them a try. Audio Note doesn't need me to advertise - they've been around 20 years selling super high end gear. So they're not really as small as I have made them look.

[RGA]

Which only goes to show how ignorant your original comment is if you think that Costco should get lumped together with Best Buy or Circuit City. The brands that these chains stock, their product mix, their average store size, their per-store sales volumes, their price points, the business-to-business transactions, market coverage, etc. are very different. Try shopping at a Costco or read their financial statements sometime if you don't believe me..

You again miss the point. Costco sells garbage stereo equipment to low cost first shoppers. It's not an insult to the buyer - people buy stereos like they buy toasters. The big box audio Chains are exactly the same - sell a box any box. It has nothing to do with whether it is the EXACT same kind of store. both are BIG BOX chains. Costco is a big box version of the local town market selling premium vegetablee etc stuff. Costco is more of a warehouse actually selling large bulk versions like a tub of 5000 pickles. Costco is a big box chains with a wider net than a Future shop which is focussed on a more specific item. Costco is more like a large supermarket with specialty departments. A big Box version of a grocery store or the Real Canadian Superstore.




No, the only person who can't make a generality that makes any sense or bears any resemblance to reality seems to be you. If big box chains are on your attack list, why not include supermarkets that sell boomboxes in that definition as well?

Well we should include those as well and wal-mart for that matter. But not for selling boom boxes. Those have an independant use and are not being convinced that their JVC read and blue flashing gizmo is actually producing high end sound. That doesn't mean it's not any good or not fun. Big box chains have cheaper cds and dvd's - WalMart has cheap clothes...nothing inherently wrong with this - what it does to society in a bigger picture is something esle however.



In reality, Costcos and similar warehouse clubs have more in common with supermarkets than a Best Buy or Circuit City. Warehouse clubs generate about 45% of their revenue from groceries, while supermarkets generate 75% from groceries. Both types of stores generate LESS THAN 0.1% of their revenue from audio equipment sales.

Agreed.



Okay, you exposed me for what I am! Yes, I admit it! I AM AN AMERICAN! Gosh, such an evil thing to be biased towards my country, especially when some foreigner decides that he knows more about the country that I call home than I do.

It never hurts to have an outsiders view of a country. I don't have a negative view of the States and I have plenty to dislike about my own country.




And mangling yet another hackneyed set of tired stereotypes about the American public does not forward your argument any further either. Don't need a stats class to see stereotyping for what it is.

Okay I was saying what Bill Maher said the other day on a Canadian News show. I found him quite amusing and re-iterated it. Sorry if that offended.




Trying to concoct some generality about American speakers based on a few examples (and what's your source of information abot ML and Totem?) is pretty nonsensical. You seem to have forgotten about Polk, Klipsch, Infinity, Boston, Def Tech, Vandersteen, Magnepan, and a slew of other brands that remain very well established in specialty audio stores, especially at the entry level. Magnepan is the most frequently owned speaker among Stereophile subscribers, and Klipsch claims to be the top selling specialty speaker brand.

Totem is in our big box chain - ML was said on this or the AA forum to be sold at a tweeter or some such store with receivers connected up. My dealer dropped them which leaves only one from 3 within a year.

As for those other brands - look I'm using my own market - I don't know how well they do in the U.S. Polk is only sold at FutureShop, Klipsch is only sold at a drug store, Infinity isn't sold, Boston is doing well, Vandersteen and Magnepan - the latter is at one location, you provided me the dealer that has Def Tech. None are exactly gangbusters here - and of those which ones have wide presence in Europe? Polk, Klipsch?
Of course there are exceptions. Just as there is stuff I don't like from Britain - like what I heard from Castle most Tannoys etc.




Are you sure that B&W is the #1 selling brand in Europe? Bose and JBL are the top sellers in the world, so it's not just Americans that buy them. But, even then I doubt that those brands alone make up even a majority of American speakers. Klipsch also claims to be #1 in the specialty market, which excludes the mass merchandise chains like BB and CC.

B&W is number three in the world - considering they don't make car speakers like Bose and JBL - B&W is king in Britain. In fact if we take out the car speakers - Bose is now in Nissan vehicles according to an ad on tv - shudder a reason not to by Nissan now LOL - then B&W may be very close to top spot - certainly they're considered the biggest high end speaker maker - that doesn't mean best of course - just big.




Techy lingo? Oh, I guess that the white papers on Harman's website about room acoustics and subwoofer calibration are nothing more than marketing nonsense, and people who read them spend all their time reading and not listening. Since I've read those papers and actually used a lot of the information in my own setup, I guess it must be true that I am one of those people who "spend more time reading literature about products than actually listening to the stuff." Stick to what you do know rather than trying to impose your negativity on how you think others spend their time. How people spend their time might actually surprise you if you're not making presumptions about them first.

Firstly - do you honestly believe most people do what you do when shopping for equipment or even understand the techy lingo - or question it. Though you're right that I should not assume how people spend their time. But spend a few weekends and be writer like going in and listening to Future shop - like stores - oh no I hope this doesn't get confusing - and listen to the sales/buy process. Since these stores move WAY more boxes than a high end store please don't attack my generalization just yet. I mean have you ever seen the process.

Guy goes in looks at three brands - salesman says that X brand is realy quite a step up over Y brand and hey it's on sale for $399.00 down from $599.00 and hey we also have a boxed set of nice speakers for $299 and a DVD playr for another $129.00 - if you buy all three I can give you a 10% discount off of that - better hurrry the sale ends tonight and it comes under you $1100.00 budget. Wow that is quite a good deal but.... "wait check out the bass on this thing - these cubes can be hidden and your wife won't complain" - wow it does have excelltent bass doesn't it check out the thundering dinosaur" Okay it sounds good - I went to the Sony sotre but it was way more money so this thing is pretyt good" "Yeah OSny is just overpriced - see we Sony for even less money than the Sony store does and are warranty is good even in Brazil - if you buy the extended three year service plan for $299.00. Okay wrap it up. "By the way you need some speaker wires and intercnnect cables. The kind they give uyou is horrible. Monster cable was invented by a Nuclear physicist and he has time aligned the bcables so that the bass and treble come out at the same speed and it sounds much bettrer" Really? Yes! Frankly they make more of a difference than buying that expensive set of speakers over there. You want to get the best ttreble response you can and the bass is deeper by up to 30% with Monster speaker cable. Also you really should protect your incvestment with this power conditioner - if your equipment is damaged by lightning Monster will cover all of your gear. These things if you think about it pay for themselves - because the basic warranty doesn't cover this. Really? Yes. But the power cord has a lifetime warranty - for $189.00 +the $69.00 interconnect and the $129.00 speaker cables you really can't go wrong and it will bring far superior results. Thanks but that's over my budget..."Don't worry you can sign up for a Futureshop credit card and is interest FREE for a year." You can't beat that.

This crap WORKS Woochifer and it works often - Monster is selling this stuff and they're selling it because of dealers like this.

And i know because when I was 18 it worked on me - not the cables but I overpaid for stuff that offerred little. - Not because I didn't do research because I did - but because I looked at magazines and never actually listened to stuff. Since then I have read lots and the arguments and then I listened to the stuff - and the technical arguements don't always correlate to what I found. The above is approach is selling to MOST people because those stores sell the most gear. Soundhounds is not going to compete with Future Shop. Certainly reading up to set your system up properly is important -

But listening to speakers is the most important thing when buying a speaker or anything else - and know enough to not be tricked by a dealer - such as volume level poor placement of one speaker to make the other sound better underpowering etc.

The entire approach at Future shop is to sell to the unsuspecting - which doesn't mean there are people who do know but simply can't afford better or know that some brands like Polk are merely handicapped by a bad environment and will sound better. Bu i'm willing to bet these are in the minority - after all Bose is biggest - precisely because MOST people don't know better.

[Woochifer]

You again miss the point. Costco sells garbage stereo equipment to low cost first shoppers. It's not an insult to the buyer - people buy stereos like they buy toasters. The big box audio Chains are exactly the same - sell a box any box. It has nothing to do with whether it is the EXACT same kind of store. both are BIG BOX chains. Costco is a big box version of the local town market selling premium vegetablee etc stuff. Costco is more of a warehouse actually selling large bulk versions like a tub of 5000 pickles. Costco is a big box chains with a wider net than a Future shop which is focussed on a more specific item. Costco is more like a large supermarket with specialty departments. A big Box version of a grocery store or the Real Canadian Superstore.

Yes, but just because a store has a large footprint does not mean that it's the same thing as another store of equal size. All of them are out to push product (any retail store has that as its primary mission). Technically, Costco is a wholesale warehouse that just happens to sell to end consumers (last time I checked, about half of what they carry goes for resale). That's why they sell everything in quantity and caselots.

Costco basically buys huge quantities of products that are available to them. They don't have an authorized dealer relationship with audio companies the way that Best Buy and Circuit City do, and as such something that you see during one shopping trip might not be there the next time you go there, and you may never see it again at Costco. Audio products are not a mainstay of Costco's product offerings, but it is important to BB and CC. BB and CC maintain a regular inventory of models that they keep in inventory until it's discontinued. BB may occasionally sell out of the Yamaha HTR-5760 receivers, but they have a dealer relationship with Yamaha and will continually restock that model until it's discontinued. Costco sells whatever is available to them in quantity, and if they ever sell that same receiver model, it will be a one-shot deal rather than an ongoing part of their inventory. That's why even though they have sold Bose products in the past, you do not see Bose at Costco all the time (in fact, I've only seen them there once).

[
Well we should include those as well and wal-mart for that matter. But not for selling boom boxes. Those have an independant use and are not being convinced that their JVC read and blue flashing gizmo is actually producing high end sound. That doesn't mean it's not any good or not fun. Big box chains have cheaper cds and dvd's - WalMart has cheap clothes...nothing inherently wrong with this - what it does to society in a bigger picture is something esle however.

You want flashing lights and buttons galore, try looking at professional studio equipment sometime.


Okay I was saying what Bill Maher said the other day on a Canadian News show. I found him quite amusing and re-iterated it. Sorry if that offended.

You mean he says something different north of the border?! I thought he was a fellow SUV driving, meat eating, gun toting, red-blooded Amurikan! What a two-faced (expletive deleted)! Next thing you know, he'll be on Quebec TV talking secession!


Totem is in our big box chain - ML was said on this or the AA forum to be sold at a tweeter or some such store with receivers connected up. My dealer dropped them which leaves only one from 3 within a year.

What does where a product gets sold have to do with product quality or how a company is doing overall? Again, not all big box chains are the same. Magnolia Hi-Fi, Good Guys, Tweeter, and Ken Crane's (L.A. area) are not the same as Best Buy and Circuit City. Their stores are a bit smaller, and the product lines stocked are a clear step higher. Good Guys carries Monitor Audio, Gallo Acoustics, Velodyne, Klipsch, Polk, and Energy. Magnolia Hi-Fi carries Vienna Acoustics, Sonus Faber, Def Tech, Krell, Boston, M&K, McIntosh, and Martin Logan. Ken Crane's stocks B&W, Velodyne, and Sunfire.


Firstly - do you honestly believe most people do what you do when shopping for equipment or even understand the techy lingo - or question it. Though you're right that I should not assume how people spend their time. But spend a few weekends and be writer like going in and listening to Future shop - like stores - oh no I hope this doesn't get confusing - and listen to the sales/buy process. Since these stores move WAY more boxes than a high end store please don't attack my generalization just yet. I mean have you ever seen the process.

If you look at a brochure from ANY speaker company, you'll see tons of techspeak about their research and specs (Bose excepted). I don't think that B&W's marketing has any less technical jargon than what Harman brings to the table. Same thing goes for smaller speaker companies, which will always find a technical explanation about why their design approach is the best. The reason why those big box chain stores move more product is simple -- they carry more low priced products, and as such, those are more affordable to a much broader cross-section of buyers. B&W speakers start at $300 in the U.S., which is well into the middle price range for what Best Buy stocks. If you ever go into a Best Buy, I think there's far LESS techspeak there than you find in just about any high end store. And now that Circuit City has canned their entire salaried sales staff, good luck finding a sales rep that can speak in complete sentences, no less technical terminology.


Guy goes in looks at three brands - salesman says that X brand is realy quite a step up over Y brand and hey it's on sale for $399.00 down from $599.00 and hey we also have a boxed set of nice speakers for $299 and a DVD playr for another $129.00 - if you buy all three I can give you a 10% discount off of that - better hurrry the sale ends tonight and it comes under you $1100.00 budget. Wow that is quite a good deal but.... "wait check out the bass on this thing - these cubes can be hidden and your wife won't complain" - wow it does have excelltent bass doesn't it check out the thundering dinosaur" Okay it sounds good - I went to the Sony sotre but it was way more money so this thing is pretyt good" "Yeah OSny is just overpriced - see we Sony for even less money than the Sony store does and are warranty is good even in Brazil - if you buy the extended three year service plan for $299.00. Okay wrap it up. "By the way you need some speaker wires and intercnnect cables. The kind they give uyou is horrible. Monster cable was invented by a Nuclear physicist and he has time aligned the bcables so that the bass and treble come out at the same speed and it sounds much bettrer" Really? Yes! Frankly they make more of a difference than buying that expensive set of speakers over there. You want to get the best ttreble response you can and the bass is deeper by up to 30% with Monster speaker cable. Also you really should protect your incvestment with this power conditioner - if your equipment is damaged by lightning Monster will cover all of your gear. These things if you think about it pay for themselves - because the basic warranty doesn't cover this. Really? Yes. But the power cord has a lifetime warranty - for $189.00 +the $69.00 interconnect and the $129.00 speaker cables you really can't go wrong and it will bring far superior results. Thanks but that's over my budget..."Don't worry you can sign up for a Futureshop credit card and is interest FREE for a year." You can't beat that.

Aside from the extended warranty and financing part, I think your example goes pretty far overboard. First off, good luck trying to find a sales rep at BB or CC that takes the time to make that kind of sales pitch in the first place. They're not on commission, so they pretty much just answer questions and aren't especially pushy. And those stores are so busy and understaffed, I doubt the sales reps will go through the trouble of trying to piece together some package deal. BB is practically a self-serve operation, with almost all of their audio equipment out on the floor ready to load into a shopping cart and carry home. And most of the sales reps I've dealt with at Magnolia and Good Guys are pretty knowledgeable and don't get into a lot of minutae with customers. If anything, it's the high end stores that get really into pushing the expensive cables and overpriced accessories. They're the ones that will talk about time alignment, jitter control, and tonal characteristics of cables. Monsters at those stores are considered entry level crap.


And i know because when I was 18 it worked on me - not the cables but I overpaid for stuff that offerred little. - Not because I didn't do research because I did - but because I looked at magazines and never actually listened to stuff. Since then I have read lots and the arguments and then I listened to the stuff - and the technical arguements don't always correlate to what I found. The above is approach is selling to MOST people because those stores sell the most gear. Soundhounds is not going to compete with Future Shop. Certainly reading up to set your system up properly is important -

But listening to speakers is the most important thing when buying a speaker or anything else - and know enough to not be tricked by a dealer - such as volume level poor placement of one speaker to make the other sound better underpowering etc.

The entire approach at Future shop is to sell to the unsuspecting - which doesn't mean there are people who do know but simply can't afford better or know that some brands like Polk are merely handicapped by a bad environment and will sound better. Bu i'm willing to bet these are in the minority - after all Bose is biggest - precisely because MOST people don't know better.

Getting you to buy more than you originally wanted to is part of the whole game of retailing. In fact, continual growth in consumption spending is an integral part of capitalism in general. There are plenty of consumers out there that just buy stuff without doing research of any kind, let alone read a spec sheet or technical jargon. Bose is what they look for because that's what they know. They'll listen and if they do no comparisons to other products at the same price point, it certainly won't sound bad if the consumer is looking to upgrade from a mini system or relying on TV speakers. It would be like Toyota being the only car company that does TV and radio advertising. People would look specifically at Toyota because that's what they know about, and if it meets their needs, then they might not even bother to look at other vehicles.

People who actually read up on the audio subject will know to look out for the exact issues that you bring up. Robert Harley's books on home theater and high end audio are a great intro to the world of audio, and the buying guides that Stereophile or The Perfect Vision periodically put out also have great pointers on how to shop for audio equipment. Those sources are long on explaining the various concepts, and short on marketing BS. Piling up brochures and magazine ads is not reading up on the subject.

[RGA]

Just a note - Future Shop in Canada is owned by Best Buy - they are all on commission. We do not have any of the sotores you mention - Best Buy, Circuit City, Tweeter etc. And my understanding is that there is no longer Future Shop in the United States and neither is A&B sound. That is why I used Costco as an example. The one thing they share is that both have no knowledge of what they're actually selling buyers go in to buy a box.

The sales pitch is not extreme I have heard it a lot. -- especially the cables and I amost want to but in and say something.

Maher - drives a hybrid, votes for Nadar, parties with Hef. He's a Libertarian of sorts I suspect.

Yes everyone uses tech speak - but 99.99% of people probably have no idea what it really means - and even if they do - it doesn't really mean much when you go in and listen and realize wow all three of those use the same technology and sound nothing alike. I don't balme them for using tech speak - oince one starts doing it the rest have to match them -- and go a step further.

[Jimmy C]

...you are forgetting when speaking of JBL is the fact that they are CHEAP. They serve their purpose... BIG sound for a few hundred bucks, and honestly not a terrible "rocker" if the budget is limited and mom let's her kid "crank it up". Are they "audiophile" speakers or speakers I would buy? No, but they DO serve a purpose and fill a nitch. Now, if your A.N.s or the 3A de Capo was selling for $400 (whatever), you would have a point.

If one wants a BETTER speaker from Harman, you would look into Revel (I have the M20s). They do their own research and driver building (mostly) which is very costly, as well as running a X0,000 sq. ft. plant. Now, one could make an argument Peter is the one making the most profits, using minimally-braced boxes and off-the-shelf components (albeit slightly tweaked). But hey, who knows - maybe I'll think they are the best thing since sliced bread also.

I'll definitely get a listen within a month or two...

[RGA]

JimmyC

You raise a valid point about JBL in that they are not pretending, like Bose, to be more than they are - and they are a good rocker. I think it has something more to do with the fact of where it is being sold - for instance in Canada a JBL costs the same as a counterpart of the Energy C series. In other words would I buy a Northridge or a C7 for the same money. In the U.S. a lot of our Canadian brands are at or close to par - so the Energy is way more money than the JBL. I don't know for sure - but the C7 will rock as well as any Northridge. But I get the point you're making.

Peter also uses high quality Birch Plys and many will argue if you're not using Ply or a hardwood or stone your cabinet is lousy. Plastic molds and veneering some cheap (we won't tell you) woods is far cheaper to build with. Peter also uses silver wiring which while not obscenely expensive is far more expensive than copper. From a parts quality perspective with most of his upper end stuff - it's all top flight.

Yes they're off the shelf drivers which you can track the price of down - taking the ferr-fluid out - refitting them with different magnets and totally different wiring is not just a small tweak.

Companies who make their own drivers? Why? Surly not because SEAS, VIFA, Foster, Scanspeak don't already have something excellent --- no it's to cheap out by building your own speaker which may or may not be worth $1.00. But the customer will NEVER know and must go back to the dealer for the driver. Which in 7 years they may not make anymore because they have completely new speakers now that use some other totally different tweeter. Ask some B&W owners from the mid 80s about some in the DM series. And if B&W has this practice? Worse the guy on here about his PSBs no more cabinets tough luck and what 4 years old. Changed their cabinet design?

There is zero negative impact on buying drivers - yes you have to pay more to buy drivers - but you don't need overhead and staff wasting time building drrivers. This building your own is generally done by companies who feel the need to build entirely new stuff every four years to market something new(and then have the audacity to use R&D as some excuse to raise prices). You get the right tweeter and the right woofer - it never ever needs to be changed. Small improvements to crossovers wood construction wiring...but basically AN are the same speakers they've been making for 15 years - and still being sold, and more importantly still being liked and still winning silly blind panel auditions(Then and now) at hi-fi choice. This to me is an indication nothing much in the way of R&D has been done over that time from the competition that has actually improved things.

And with regards to profit well the guy who can build a superior sounding speaker and make more profit is a testament to both his design and his business sense. I hope Peter makes a huge profit on every item - He deserves to make it for being one of the only makers who makes music sound like music rather than an etchy carbon copy. His stuff isn't good looking enough to sell well - and he won't shmooze for reviews.

He sells to people who will go in and listen to his stuff - that's what he wants.

Get ready to trade in your Revels when you audition :D Just kidding.

[Jimmy C]

...impact at all buying of-the shelf drivers (Revel also does it for certain models) it's just that it is more costly tooling up your own. Sure, if the speaker sounded like crap, it wouldn't matter, but R&D and building a high-end product (like them or not) can be quite an undertaking.

The reason we are going to make a trip to hear the ANs is my friend is going to upgrade his speakers (Monitor 11s). I know you're not the biggest fan, but he has these sounding pretty good driven by old tube monoblocks. He has recently settled into his new house and has a few bucks left over - I recommended upgrading speakers next (V.P.I. Scout, cheap Sony CDP, Rotel's new pre, and Dynaco monoblocks). This is actually a "nice" sounding rig for a total of about $2800. But. like me, audio is one way we like to use disposable (not really, but...) income.

And, hey... if they (the ANs) bowl me over, I'll take a pair home too! ;*)

[RGA]

Are the 11's active? I have never hear the Monitor 11 but was not that supposed to be an exception in the monitor line?

Why is he getting rid of them? Not enough juice from the tubes.

What else does the store you're going to carry? It is important to compare against another speaker(s) becuase you will not only be evaluating the speaker buiut the room and equipment it's in. For instance spekaers have always sounded better in my untreated less than spectacular apartments than in dealerships. I still say evaluating in a dealership is fine - so long as you are evaluating your other contenders there.

[Tarheel_]

I have an old pair ('94) of 301 IV. Yeah, they sounded o.k. when new, but since i have purchased many speakers and had no use for them...so, I decided to mount them on my deck. THe result is a fantastic speaker. Plenty of bass and they are durable. Several years of outdoor weather hasn't affected the paper cones....they really sound great outdoors...can't tell you why, but they do!

[Jimmy C]

...no, not active, but sound a lot tighter than the 9s. Instantly comparing, the difference (throught the mids as well) is pretty big. Why is he getting rid of them? I dunno, he wants to take the next step up - besides, he has other rooms to build a second (and third!) rig. He also has two, original pairs of 901 from his father, which I will be borrowing... I'll see for myself - I can give them plenty of power, so the Bose proponents can't say anything about that :*)

I agree - stores usually sound like crap, even the ones with acoustic treatment. Ironically, the store with the LEAST treatment was the one that sold me on the Studio 60s... it was the 5th and final store in my immediate area that had speakers in my price range at the time. I also suggest taking the speakers home for a demo (if possible) for that very reason... I can't explain it, but it does seem to be the treand - gear usually sounds better at home than in a store.

The place we are going to (sattothestars.com) also has Von Schweikert, Spendor, Lumenwhite, and JM Reynaud... (whatever, I can't spell it right now) as well as a few others. I really want to hear these. Me? I'm going to start hunting for (possibly) a tubed integrated. I want to hear the CJ CAV-50, and I just found a place here on Long Island that carries them, not too far away.

All in all, it should be a fun trip!

[RGA]

On the amp - if you do listen to the AN J or E try and listen to the AN amps as well. That is their stock and trade after all.

[Jimmy C]

...their amps are high-priced - I would rather listen to a pair of speakers with a more "real-world" price range amp. I mean, if the ANs (or any other) needed THEIR expensive amplification (I'm not saying they do), what good would it be? I think you mean listen for fun and enjoyment, see what it's all about, etc.

Sure... we'll see what he has...

[Tarheel_]

...their amps are high-priced - I would rather listen to a pair of speakers with a more "real-world" price range amp. I mean, if the ANs (or any other) needed THEIR expensive amplification (I'm not saying they do), what good would it be? I think you mean listen for fun and enjoyment, see what it's all about, etc.

Sure... we'll see what he has...

I hear you Jimmy, when i auditioned my Revel's the dealer was pushing them through ML gear...i mean talk about slick moves...hell, during the demo i turned the lights out and my eyes were fixed on the gear like a 18 year old in a bikini...i just couldn't get the imagine out of my thick head. So I ended up with them in my house with a mid-level Denon and such. Sold me though...they shined in-house and I ordered them the next day.

bty Jimmy, i'm sure you've tried this, but my Rotel amp (120x2) just creates the best synergy with the F30s...can't explain the results...its just there!

[Jimmy C]

...I hope you mean "an 18 year old" GIRL in a bikini...lol... And hey, even if you didn't, there's nothing WRONG with that (Seinfeld...)

Boy, I'm funny... (it's my birthday - leave me alone.. hehe)

Actually, I feel the Revels do a LOT of things right, BUT I want a bit less SS "glare"... after all, I'm using CDs as my primary listening (due to laziness). I feel the M20s are VERY neutral, I'll get my sugar-coating by way of a tubed amp - from what I have read, a bit of tube magic is what I'm looking for.

I would certainly recommend the Rotel gear... as a matter of fact, I have compared my amp to others costing 4x (within a few minutes, not instantly) with VERY good results. This is one reason why I have not changed my amp or pre... not enough of a diff. I have even substituted a different pre (in MY system)... nowhere NEAR enough differences to warrant the 3 or 4x price difference. Rotel makes stout, generic-looking, good-sounding stuff.

I have not heard any of the Levinson stuff... enjoy!

[pkauffman]

Well, I was looking at my Bose and realized that I have owned it for almost ten years. I have loved it! But, it is aging and I am trying to decide what to do from here. How can I incorporate my lifestyle into a more modern system with more controls. Do I have to trash it? I have a DVD system and I found that people have hacked into them and added components and enhnaced it.

So, Bose has been out there for ten years. Is there no way to add to the system, to add componenets, to incorporate the speakers into other systems or otherwise use it?

[Woochifer]

Well, I was looking at my Bose and realized that I have owned it for almost ten years. I have loved it! But, it is aging and I am trying to decide what to do from here. How can I incorporate my lifestyle into a more modern system with more controls. Do I have to trash it? I have a DVD system and I found that people have hacked into them and added components and enhnaced it.

So, Bose has been out there for ten years. Is there no way to add to the system, to add componenets, to incorporate the speakers into other systems or otherwise use it?

That's precisely why hate Bose's Lifestyle approach. You have limited expandability and a proprietary closed-loop system. If you ever want to upgrade to anything beyond what Bose provides, then you need to basically trash the thing and start over. You can't just swap speakers because the amplifier is actually inside the bass module. You can't buy a different receiver and transport your Bose cubes to the new system unless you get a $100 wire harness from Bose.

If you want to upgrade, you start over and IMO that's not a bad thing because you're free to explore a world of new components that follow industry line level and connection standards. This means that anything you buy now can be easily swapped out and upgraded incrementally. You're no longer limited to Bose's concessions to convenience.

[Bohner]

[Bose has been marketed wel for better than 25 years. The old audio press, motivated by greed as best as I could tell, would fawn over these lightweights. Then you would see quotes in the ads implying the supereiority of this crap.
Remember direct//reflecting (extra slash to avoid copyright infringement), the cure in search of a disease? The whole produsct line demanded space which normally makes any reproducer sound better. Bose was pretty insistent on slick displays which granted this level of gravity to their undeserving line. They would underwrite exclusive sound rooms to achieve thi goals.
The author of "they are marketers", got most of it right. These gents found a formula and kept with it.
When the 901s were introduced I was taken by the size of the product and the soundstage. The fact that a 35Hz note would be put into a carton, shaken thoroughly and tossed against the rear walls wasn't an issue to me at first. The longer I listened the more I hated them. The smearing of everything was too much. The swwedish inspired design of the stands was the best thing about them.
Transfigured I wasn't.
When I bought my Martin Logan Aerius, I trotted out with the wife. I had a number of fine speakers to opt from. My wife chose them over the contenders. (They have lasted longer than the marriage since.) They demand space but give me imaging. People singing are life size. Instruments are displayed in a single spot. Recording quality is important.
The last is the biggest rub.
Bose with it's awful qualities, makes everything sound OK. You can't distinguish crap from shinola but it doesn't matter. Omar said that distortion out of the mid range is unimportant! He actually built electronics to unknown specs! (If I am not incorrect, I think he was the first guy to produce a consumer amp of 350 watts per channel with this philosopy. Probably the only one.)
I do not know of any greater infringer of what high fidelity should be.
May they all rot in hell.
As an incidental-When paired with a Velodyne 15 THX-II, the Aerius do sing a lot better.
Bottom line about all of this don't ever think that fancy style, or no style, technical jargon citing uniqueness in ads, and every other ploy is worth more than having listened and compared. Reviewers are biased, the companys are biased, and the merchandisers are biased.
So you should be too. To your finances and your ears.
As to euro trash, I've heard great stuff. I like Kef, B+W and others for characteristics that are difficult to find.
I also think that you only need to stop at the point that you have acquired a really good system. Pretty much every form of speaker has been tried. From active plasma, planars, push-pull dipoles, self-powered, odd speaker cabinetry, wall loading, side woofers, speaker orientation, 57th order Butterworth X-overs, yadda yadda. All of the changes to our reception of sound, that will be dramatic, will originate in the electronics from henceforth. Fully encoded digitalized sound streams will still need to be translated to physical form by the same types of transducers we are witness to now. It's the input that matters.
A good speaker is a joy forever. It may no longer fit into your self-image, upward mobility, or current situation but until the capacitors leak and the foam surrounds fail, they will stand up well. Choose carefully. The electronics on the other hand-24/192 unencoded will be a minimum standard someday and all of the analog stuff you collected has the shelf life of bread in the rain forest.
My Yamaha RX-Z1 replaced all of my seperates. Shoot! I had a Sherwood Micro CPU FM Only Tuner that cost $1500 in the late 70's. Playing with all that esoteric stuff came to a halt when that sucker broke and NO ONE could fix it.
Avoid this plight. Get really great speakers and pretty good feeder elements.
Obvioulsy I am speaking to the non-golden ears and those that have more money than needed sense about these matters. This could be the wrong crowd.
I have about five years total sales and 40 years gneral interest experience and I a doing what I am advising.
I haunt eBay for speakers. Jamo, Kef and lesser known brands that I know will sound good if they are working. Nothing that would denote styles. Kef Codas are going for less than a C-note. A pitch even I can hear. Matter of fact I'm going there right now to see what's cooking.