Mapleshade ?

[Beckman]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php

?

[mtrycraft]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php

?


Just more of the same audio has to offer: BS, voodoo, myths, unsuported claims, expensive price tags for what is offered, etc.
And, in this case, it is ugly.

[Beckman]

Just more of the same audio has to offer: BS, voodoo, myths, unsuported claims, expensive price tags for what is offered, etc.
And, in this case, it is ugly.

I can understand making an expensive power cord at least look like it is worth the mony, but these power cords look like something you would find in a McDonalds happ meal for audophiles.

[mtrycraft]

I can understand making an expensive power cord at least look like it is worth the mony, but these power cords look like something you would find in a McDonalds happ meal for audophiles.


I think that is exactely what I said :D, UGLY

[rb122]

I can understand making an expensive power cord at least look like it is worth the mony, but these power cords look like something you would find in a McDonalds happ meal for audophiles.

"...and would you like some hype with that, sir?"

LOL! Of all the marketing rap I've heard about anything associated with audio, Mapleshade takes the cake.

[FLZapped]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php

?

:confused:

Anyone ask them where their UL approval is?

-Bruce

(otherwise)

hahahahhahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahh ahahahha
You've got to be kidding me....
ahahahahahhahahhahahahhahhaahahhahahahhahahahhahah a

*whew* I needed a good laugh. :D

[mtrycraft]

"...and would you like some hype with that, sir?"

LOL! Of all the marketing rap I've heard about anything associated with audio, Mapleshade takes the cake.


I hear they make very good CD recordings. They should stick to what they know best, recording:)

[mtrycraft]

:confused:

Anyone ask them where their UL approval is?

-Bruce

(otherwise)

hahahahhahhahahahahahahahahhahahhahahahhahahhahahh ahahahha
You've got to be kidding me....
ahahahahahhahahhahahahhahhaahahhahahahhahahahhahah a

*whew* I needed a good laugh. :D


What is that clearly visible green straight thread/wire? The ground? Sooo thin.

[gonefishin]

I hear they make very good CD recordings. They should stick to what they know best, recording:)


Hi mtry :)

they actually do make some pretty good Cd's. I'm not sure what type of music you enjoy listening to (why is that?)...but their sampler (music festival) is worth looking into. Good music and good recordings. I enjoy them.




oh...yeah. The MapleShade tweaks? no thank you.



take care>>>>>>>>>>

[FLZapped]

What is that clearly visible green straight thread/wire? The ground? Sooo thin.

Probably. Hopefully it is of sufficient guage to trip a circuit breaker(or fuse) in the event of a short.

BTW - it gets even better, this was in the (online) Owners Manual:

"Never lay this (or any other wire in your system) on a carpeted or plastic tile floor—nor any plastic molding or plastic wall covering. The proximity of bad-sounding dielectric will seriously degrade the sound of even the best cables."

hahahaahhahahhahahhahahahhhahhahahhaa

Man.....these guys are really twisted.

-Bruce
:rolleyes:

[Beckman]

If it wasn't for damn subconscious I would go into the high end audio accessory business.

[mtrycraft]

I'm not sure what type of music you enjoy listening to (why is that
oh...yeah. The MapleShade tweaks? no thank you.
take care>>>>>>>>>>


Why? Because this is not the music forum :D But, just for you, I like a variety of music, classical, as a starter, Yanni, Dianna Krall, Kitaro, Enya, Lorenna McKinnitt and a few others. I pick up some local artist discs at thanksgiving festival shows and fairs that hits my fancy. Usually not jazz but I have picked up a couple on recommendation. No Maple Shade discs yet.

[kingdaddykeith]

Lorenna McKinnitt.

Yes, I've recently gotten into her music, I have good collection of Celtic music, Enyas sister Maire Brennan (Clannad) is another good artist in that genre.

[mtrycraft]

Lorenna McKinnitt.

Yes, I've recently gotten into her music, I have good collection of Celtic music, Enyas sister Maire Brennan (Clannad) is another good artist in that genre.


My collection is small but I have several of these artists. I enjoy some Celtic music. May have to try your suggestion. That is how I got unto them myself:)
What is the relationship of (Clannad)? Part of her name? Also known as?

[jneutron]

If equipment that is using this line cord develops a hard hot to ground short, most circuit breakers will not clear the line in time to prevent rupture of that ground conductor, leaving a hot chassis..

Also, a wire of that size is incapable of physical stress encountered in everyday use.

Should a child be electrocuted as a result of the use of a line cord of this design, who is responsible??

I do not believe a picture of this cord should even be allowed to exist, there will be those out there who will actually try to make something like that, and I fear the consequences.

If this picture is just a joke, it can be a very dangerous one. If it is real, it is not funny, but it is still dangerous. Thanks to all for pointing safety out..I just don't think you were all vocal enough in stressing that..


John

[kingdaddykeith]

What is the relationship of (Clannad)? Part of her name? Also known as?


I'm not sure, I first herd Clannad in some movie sound tracks, they do the theme for Patriot Games, and did a song on "Last of the Mohicans". Enya used to be with the band back in the 80's, then went out on her own. Marie Brennan has a solo album and a wonderful remake of Big Yellow Taxi that is (IMO) better then the original Carly Simon version.

Here is a site that explains all you need to know
http://www.p2pezine.com/maire-brennan.htm

[Beckman]

If this picture is just a joke, it can be a very dangerous one. If it is real, it is not funny, but it is still dangerous. Thanks to all for pointing safety out..I just don't think you were all vocal enough in stressing that..


John

This is no joke. Mapleshade has a hole slew of cables and interconnects like this. And they have been selling them for at least a year so I imagine there are quite a few out there. It is just hard to believe people buy them.

[N. Abstentia]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powerstrip.php

$270 (plus shipping) for a power strip. And it looks no different from the ones they sell for $6.95 at Home Depot.

[mtrycraft]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powerstrip.php

$270 (plus shipping) for a power strip. And it looks no different from the ones they sell for $6.95 at Home Depot.


Did you notice those piss ant wires on them? Certainly won't see it on the HD strip.

[mtrycraft]

What is the relationship of (Clannad)? Part of her name? Also known as?


I'm not sure, I first herd Clannad in some movie sound tracks, they do the theme for Patriot Games, and did a song on "Last of the Mohicans". Enya used to be with the band back in the 80's, then went out on her own. Marie Brennan has a solo album and a wonderful remake of Big Yellow Taxi that is (IMO) better then the original Carly Simon version.

Here is a site that explains all you need to know
http://www.p2pezine.com/maire-brennan.htm


Great, thanks. Went to Ireland last year. Besutiful place, was cold, windy, some rain, roads very narrow with stone walls too close and they don't know what iced tea is.
Of all things, had a waitress who worked in Bangkok know exactely what it was.

[wiseburro]

http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/powercord.php

?


Mapleshade makes some great sounding cables. With their return policy it's a no risk deal.

[gonefishin]

Why? Because this is not the music forum :D But, just for you, I like a variety of music, classical, as a starter, Yanni, Dianna Krall, Kitaro, Enya, Lorenna McKinnitt and a few others. I pick up some local artist discs at thanksgiving festival shows and fairs that hits my fancy. Usually not jazz but I have picked up a couple on recommendation. No Maple Shade discs yet.



I suppose you have a point :rolleyes: hmmm...maybe the cable forum could be renamed the cable/music forum??? Naww

The MapleShade sampler( Music Festival) is pretty good...and it's not overly priced. If ya get an ankling you should get it :)


see ya>>>>

[wiseburro]

The MapleShade sampler( Music Festival) is pretty good...and it's not overly priced. If ya get an ankling you should get it :)


see ya>>>>

Pierre does know how to make some great recordings, no doubt about that. His tweaks are pretty amazing as well.

[Beckman]

Mapleshade makes some great sounding cables. With their return policy it's a no risk deal.

? What about the risk of starting a fire or the risk of the cat getting electricuted.

[Beckman]

I do not believe a picture of this cord should even be allowed to exist, there will be those out there who will actually try to make something like that, and I fear the consequences.
John

There are pictures of a lot worse things on the internet.

[wiseburro]

? What about the risk of starting a fire or the risk of the cat getting electricuted.


Is there really any great risk? lol


He has philosophy about cables, which is 'thin'. He helped develop the Omega Mikro cables which have been very well received. The guys is a world class engineer. You can't disqualify him on that basis. He was instrumental in the development of the F-16 from stem to stern. He knows his ****. I think his stuff has a very good sound and the science behind his ideas really can't be challenged. He does what he does for a reason. I'm not going to say I think his products sound the best that is out there, but they aren't that far behind.

The reason that powercord looks the way it does is because of his beliefs about the dialectric. He thinks 'air' is the best.

[mtrycraft]

Is there really any great risk? lol


He has philosophy about cables, which is 'thin'. He helped develop the Omega Mikro cables which have been very well received. The guys is a world class engineer. You can't disqualify him on that basis. He was instrumental in the development of the F-16 from stem to stern. He knows his ****. I think his stuff has a very good sound and the science behind his ideas really can't be challenged. He does what he does for a reason. I'm not going to say I think his products sound the best that is out there, but they aren't that far behind.

The reason that powercord looks the way it does is because of his beliefs about the dialectric. He thinks 'air' is the best.


He has what? Philosopy? What he needs is evidence for his philosophy. After all, it isn't a mystic.
And his idea certainly can be challenged. He has zero evidence for any of his cable ideas making audible differences, zero. Certainly not supported by DBt listening.Certainly he has not produced that evidence.

Just because he is a world class engineer doesn't mean he is on the same playing field in audio cables. Far from it.

He does what he does because there are gullible audiophiles, maybe himself included, that buy into that nonsense.

[woodman]

Mapleshade makes some great sounding cables. With their return policy it's a no risk deal.

Hold on there young'un ... your gullibility is belying the moniker you've chosen for yourself here. This entire Mapleshade "business" (the accessories biz - not the recording biz) is a sham - a hoax - a disgusting ploy to extract cash from the unwary, gullible audio CONEs on totally false pretenses. The leader of this band of thieves may be a talented recording engineer, but he should stick to that career. If that enterprise is not financially successful enough to suit him, he should just throw in the towel and go to work for someone else. This decision to expand his business into dubious cable designs and power cords, strips, etc. is a shameful way to conduct a business ... shame on him.

In order to make you a bit more of a "wiseburro" about audio than you presently are (since you're willing to believe all of the ridiculous claims made), I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

[skeptic]

I don't like the look of this thing. If it's what it appears to me to be, I'd be afraid to plug it into an outlet. Remember, the upstream circuit breaker will allow 15 amps (or 20 depending on the circuit) to pass before it trips. This power cord doesn't look like it could handle 5. I didn't see any claim for a UL listing or any description of it. It seems their web site is as poorly designed as their power cord. I see Chinese made extension cords at the local dollar store that aren't UL listed either. At least they are made from what appears to be 16 gage wire. As for its ability to improve audio equipment, like all other such claims by wire manufacturers and sellers, there is no indication that such improvement is even possible, let alone likely.

[jneutron]

I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

That is an incorrect one..

If all the equipment is designed to meet specifications by eliminating the equipment's dependence on an external reference ground, then your statement is correct.

Pro equip is well equipped to do so, with balanced inputs..Home audio is usually not..

How many people out there hear a thump in their powered subwoofer when something electrical turns on or off? It's not coming in via the power cord, but is coming in via the ground loop..

Most, if not all, of the powercords made do not worry about that...just current delivery to the equipment..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

He has what? Philosopy? What he needs is evidence for his philosophy. After all, it isn't a mystic.
And his idea certainly can be challenged. He has zero evidence for any of his cable ideas making audible differences, zero. Certainly not supported by DBt listening.Certainly he has not produced that evidence.

Just because he is a world class engineer doesn't mean he is on the same playing field in audio cables. Far from it.

He does what he does because there are gullible audiophiles, maybe himself included, that buy into that nonsense.


His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.

As for the dbt nonsense. That is your standard, which you have every right to have, but it by no means invalidates his products. Listen to any of their recordings and they are leading edge as far as sonic reproduction. He employs his 'nonsense' as you put it it into every recordeing and they sound magnificant.

[wiseburro]

Hold on there young'un ... your gullibility is belying the moniker you've chosen for yourself here. This entire Mapleshade "business" (the accessories biz - not the recording biz) is a sham - a hoax - a disgusting ploy to extract cash from the unwary, gullible audio CONEs on totally false pretenses. The leader of this band of thieves may be a talented recording engineer, but he should stick to that career. If that enterprise is not financially successful enough to suit him, he should just throw in the towel and go to work for someone else. This decision to expand his business into dubious cable designs and power cords, strips, etc. is a shameful way to conduct a business ... shame on him.

In order to make you a bit more of a "wiseburro" about audio than you presently are (since you're willing to believe all of the ridiculous claims made), I must tell you that a power cord - no matter how it's designed cannot have any meaningful effect whatsoever on the performance of an electronic product to which it's attached ... period! And dat's da troot.

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

[skeptic]

Welcome back. Haven't seen your postings in a long time.

While you are technically correct about grounding, the implication of manufacturers of power cords is that somehow, the ability of the power cord to deliver current from a wall outlet to the power transformer of electronic equipment in some way alters the performance of that equipment. This on the face of it seems ludicrous. As you know, the power cord is the least significant element in the circuit which comprises the utility transformer secondary, feeder cables to the service entrance, the branch circuit conductors, and the transformer primary of the electronic appliance. Grounding MUST conform to NEC article 250 and to the conditions under which UL approved the appliance for its seal. The inability of electronic equipment to meet its performance specifications for noise and distortion due to ground loops is usually due to limitations inherent in the design of the equipment itself which includes its manufacturer supplied power cord and local conditions of the power distribution network. It is true that multiple service entrances and complex cable, and telephone interconnections can create additional ground loop problems which usually have to be dealt with by installing a single signal reference ground. This is typical for office buildings but can happen even in homes and I've had the experience of it in my own house connecting TVs and VCRs to different cable outlets and then to each other forming a loop. Manufacturers of these cables further try to alarm consumers into buying their products by implying that rf noise somehow parasitic to power distribution will compromise performance of their equipment. It is clear from the Mapleshade power cord pictured on the referenced web site that this was not a concern here as there is not even the slightest attempt at shielding. However, parasitic capacitance suggested by the twisting of the conductors and inductance suggested by their spacing could act as an rf filter but it is hardly worth $150 but more like $1.50.

Most advertisers of audiophile power cords have some gimmick to lure customers. One says his cords are made from a single crystal of copper with no grain boundaries. Some have odd geometries. One even has a dangerously removable ground pin on the plug. Once ungrounded, the appliance no longer conforms to UL if the original equipment was supplied with one and a short to the metal case could cause exposed live parts creating a hazard of electrocution.

In an 11 year stretch of building laboratories for the research arm of the Regional Bell Operating Companies (RBOCs) including installation of some of the most sensitive measuring equipment available, I encountered may grounding schemes including some crazy ones that were requested. But in all that time, I never saw a piece of bench equipment that was supplied with anything more than a standard power cord and although there were occaional requests for UPSs to protect experiments against power failures, no special precautions to get the most performance from equipment of that type was ever requested prior to or subsequent to installation. That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

[jneutron]

Welcome back. Haven't seen your postings in a long time. .

Been busy tipping at windmills...:-)


While you are technically correct about grounding, the implication of manufacturers of power cords is that somehow, the ability of the power cord to deliver current from a wall outlet to the power transformer of electronic equipment in some way alters the performance of that equipment..

You are incorrect...the manu's don't imply that...they flat out make those ridiculous claims..such garbage..


This on the face of it seems ludicrous. As you know, the power cord is the least significant element in the circuit which comprises the utility transformer secondary, feeder cables to the service entrance, the branch circuit conductors, and the transformer primary of the electronic appliance. Grounding MUST conform to NEC article 250 and to the conditions under which UL approved the appliance for its seal. The inability of electronic equipment to meet its performance specifications for noise and distortion due to ground loops is usually due to limitations inherent in the design of the equipment itself which includes its manufacturer supplied power cord and local conditions of the power distribution network. It is true that multiple service entrances and complex cable, and telephone interconnections can create additional ground loop problems which usually have to be dealt with by installing a single signal reference ground. This is typical for office buildings but can happen even in homes and I've had the experience of it in my own house connecting TVs and VCRs to different cable outlets and then to each other forming a loop. Manufacturers of these cables further try to alarm consumers into buying their products by implying that rf noise somehow parasitic to power distribution will compromise performance of their equipment. It is clear from the Mapleshade power cord pictured on the referenced web site that this was not a concern here as there is not even the slightest attempt at shielding. However, parasitic capacitance suggested by the twisting of the conductors and inductance suggested by their spacing could act as an rf filter but it is hardly worth $150 but more like $1.50.

Most advertisers of audiophile power cords have some gimmick to lure customers. One says his cords are made from a single crystal of copper with no grain boundaries. Some have odd geometries. One even has a dangerously removable ground pin on the plug. Once ungrounded, the appliance no longer conforms to UL if the original equipment was supplied with one and a short to the metal case could cause exposed live parts creating a hazard of electrocution...

I find I am "required" to copy and post a lot of your talk about this...although I agree with all you said, I prefer it remain intact, a constant reminder to all that the issue is that important..thanks..


But in all that time, I never saw a piece of bench equipment that was supplied with anything more than a standard power cord and although there were occaional requests for UPSs to protect experiments against power failures, no special precautions to get the most performance from equipment of that type was ever requested prior to or subsequent to installation. That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

At work here, I find a lot of exception to that..a lot of the 12 phase supplies, especially the ones over a quarter megawatt, create all kinds of ground bounce issues. The 5 megawatt one a quarter mile away also raises hell..And, all in an environment where we're trying to measure tenth microvolt signals riding 30 Kiloamp super loads..

So much of the audio stuff we use has no regard for grounding issues...leaving the consumers to figure out hum and noise issues. It's no wonder the snake oil flourishes..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus.

I think this is the key statement. You are relying on your experience in another area to make an assumption on consumer audio. Have you ever tried switching out a powercord?

[skeptic]

I design and build power distribution networks for a living. What do you think?

[skeptic]

Here are some numbers. These are typical worst case real world numbers.

Say an audio amplifier which is 40% efficient is putting out 200 watts per channel and all of the current is coming from the power transformer. It draws 1000 watts which is 8 amps at 120 volts. At that point, it has an effective input impedence of 15 ohms.

16 gage AWG has an impedence of 4 ohms for 1000 feet. A 5 foot power cord of 16 gage wire will have an impedence of .04 ohms. The voltage drop due to the power cord is one third of a volt. If an audio amplifier can't handle a one third of a volt drop, it isn't much of an amplifier to begin with.

Here's a web site for wire impedence by gage if you want to try the calculations yourself.

http://dl.jctc.kctcs.net/ET110/42c256/lecturepage3.htm

[skeptic]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm confronted with a 12 phase power supply or a 5 megawatt audio amplifier.

You would not believe what they want you to do to ground a telephone switch. And if it's hit by lightning, it can make all the difference in the world.

[jneutron]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind the next time I'm confronted with a 12 phase power supply or a 5 megawatt audio amplifier.

Hey, you never know when you'll need one..especially if your speakers aren't very efficient..

But in that enviro, I still run my 100 foot snake, which is a 14/2 extension cord, a mike run, and an unbalanced line feed to the power amp on stage, and have absolutely no issues with noise or hum, period..

But the guy who does PA for the lab has to use all those hum bucker thingy's, and still has huge noise problems anyway because of building HVAC and superconducting collider ring power supplies.. but my dinky 300wpc system with this ridiculous snake cord totally outperforms everything he does, simply because I've addressed the ground bounce..

Cheers, John

[wiseburro]

I design and build power distribution networks for a living. What do you think?

From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords.

[wiseburro]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?



I just wanted to add that whenever you make claims about his motives or character without any evidence you become exactly what you accuse him of being, if not moreso.

[skeptic]

I expect that like MOST people in business, his motive is to make money. Mabye Peter Qtwerp is in business part for fun and part for money but he's the exception. The question is does his product have any real value beyond what you get from the manufacturer. In most of his competitors cases you look at it, shrug your shoulders, and say what the hell, if people want to buy this stuff at 100 times what its worth, well it's their money. But in this case, this wire looks frighteningly thin. While it is apparantly intended for a low current draw applaince like a cd player, with its standard connector, it could be hooked up to a high powered high current draw amplifier. It just doesn't look like it could handle it and seems to me that it might just melt or catch fire long before the circuit breaker trips. Are there any specs for this thing? I couldn't find any on his web site. Give me the specific page link please. Sometimes I wonder if these guys actually believe what they put in their ads or are just playing games. In this case, I couldn't find anything on his site. Just a picture and prices.

[skeptic]

"From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords."

What is the audal effect? I never heard of it.

[wiseburro]

Sorry for the typo. Audial.

[jneutron]

Sorry for the typo. Audial.

It's either auto-dial, or audible..(please select the second choice.).

As for the person being discussed....

Both of you are correct in part..the guy may be smart, he definitely is in it for the money...

But making a power cord that is so ineptly dangerous that it should be banned from the market is not right. One funeral because of that unsafe design is one too many.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

It is easy to make the mistake of assuming that because a guy is technically savvy about one thing, maybe even a genius, he is automatically savvy about everything else technical. Whether its John Curl, an acknowledged fine designer of audio amplifiers embarrassing himself about the quantum physics of electrical conductivity in wires or a guy named Lawrence N. who was an expert at using an Eximer Laser but didn't know beans about chemistry and insisted on installing normal carbon steel tubing and ductwork for the fluorine supply and discharge because his department didn't have a sufficient budget for stainless steel, many people blindly believe in them. The safety guy who sat mute at the meeting because he had a personal war with my division manager later admitted that in a similar installation, a small leak had done a quarter of a million dollars in damage over a weekend in another lab that another scientist had built the same way.

I don't know what role this guy played in the design of electrical control systems in high performance aircraft and these may have been low voltage power limited systems anyway, but extrapolating to the design he is marketing for a 120 volt 15 amp power cord makes me feel he has gone way out beyond his depth. It makes me suspect he was a technician who became an audio tinkerer, not an engineer. I don't think that even Jon Risch would ever propose anything like this.

BTW, to RGA who wants to know why I won't post at AA anymore, the last time I saw something this dangerous was a DIY posting at cable asylum for a power cord made out of coax and another using ferrite beads creating high impedence grounds. The guy who built monster speaker cables weaving 10,000 pairs of cat 5 telephone wire together and blew up his amplifier (I say he built a giant capacitor which sent it into spontaneous ultrasonic oscillation) didn't inspire any confidence either. Some of their proposed home brew electrical wiring projects for their houses were nightmares too. Scary.

[Monstrous Mike]

His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.
Your type of wording and approach to consumerism can be applied to all the get well, weight loss, talking to the dead, penis enlargement, pyramid power, voodoo medicine, hair growth, Nigerian email, lottery, pyramid schemes and weasel and snake oil products on the face of the earth.

Here is a list of issues to beware of when you might be in the midst of parting with your hard-earned money. There are techniques used by the scammers:

1. Money back guarantee. This is a method of gaining trust. How can you lose? If you don't like it, return it for a full refund. That's because scammers know that most people will not go through the hassle of returning a product. It's human nature. And besides, a lot of the time you cannot return the product if it is working correctly. Go ahead and try to prove that your new power cord is not up to snuff or is defective.

2. Act like the little guy. This concept involves convincing people that the scammers are the David as opposed to the Goliath of the established scientific community. They show how scientists and skeptics are on their backs never giving them a chance. Everybody likes to root for the underdog, right?

3. Confidence or confiding. Again this is human nature at work. You are led to believe that you are exposed to something that most people are not or would not understand. This gives you a feeling of superiority. You are told you have special hearing and this is why other skeptics cannot hear the improvements.

4. Claims of recommendations. This is one is easy to see. Let's go read the reviews of all the people who love the product. The more reviews, the more legitimate the product appears.

5. The cost of the product is excessive. Again it is human nature to assume more expensive means better not to mention the prestige.

6. Avoid blind comparisons. Why would a product not want to be compared to another product or a gold standard?

7. Associate the product with reputable ideas. The goal here to try to form a connection between the product and a known scientific property or law. This link is easy to discredit by scientific types unless it is worded vaguely.

8. Don't make a direct claim. Scammers will rarely make a direct statement of product superiority. Instead, there will be inferences planted which would lead the consumer to make an inaccurate conclusion.

9. Play on people's desires. This is one of the most powerful weapons of a scammers. Usually the consumer already has the will to believe something to be true and thus it is not a long trip to convince him. The emotions get eleveated when in the process of believing and this will cause the consumer to miss the normal warning signs.

The next time you want to buy and new and improved audio product, apply the previous list and see how much of it applies.

[skeptic]

The FTC doesn't see it your way. If he makes a claim that his product performs better than his competitors, he has to have scientific proof to back it up or it is fraudulent advertising. He has to offer this proof BEFORE he makes these claims, not after he is challenged in court or by the FTC. Testimonial endorsements and money back if not satisfied guarantees are not considered an acceptable substitute. I cited the FTC rules on fair advertising in a long thread about a year or so ago. It's still there but you can visit the FTC website for yourself and get it. It's in plain english for anyone to read and understand. BTW, most of his competitors get around it by not actually making any claims for performance at all. They infer, suggest, lead the prospective buyer on but they never come outright and say it. That may be left for a verbal statement at the point of sale which the manufacturer can easily disavow. I think most of them have lawyers who tell them just how far they can go.

[Beckman]

Remember, the upstream circuit breaker will allow 15 amps (or 20 depending on the circuit) to pass before it trips.

If a dead short were to occur 10,000 amps are passed through for a split second before the circuit trips.

[wiseburro]

It's either auto-dial, or audible..(please select the second choice.).

As for the person being discussed....

Both of you are correct in part..the guy may be smart, he definitely is in it for the money...

But making a power cord that is so ineptly dangerous that it should be banned from the market is not right. One funeral because of that unsafe design is one too many.

Cheers, John


lol Actually it is audial, or aural. Generally, people who are in business are in it for the money. I have no problem with that.

I don't know it if has been accurately demonstrated that his powercord is inherently dangerous. I'm certainly no engineer, but I don't think as a businessman that he would open himself up to that sort of liability. I have talked to him several times on the phone about a couple of products. I'm sure he would be more than willing to discuss the finer points of his powercord safety.

[wiseburro]

I will have to get back to you later on that one, Mike. Dinner is calling.

[skeptic]

Not true. All circuit protective devices have a time current trip curve. The 10,000 amp rating printed on the circuit breaker in your house is the MINIMUM which the manufacturer guarantees that circuit breaker can withstand before it explodes or in some other way fails to perform its function on a dead short on its load side. That does not mean that you will draw 10,000 amps in a dead short. The actual amount will depend on a complex analysis of the voltages of the transformer, its KVA rating, it's impedence, and the impedence of the feeders and branch circuit conductors involved in the short. It can even include upstream segments of the circuit from the substation to the transformer if that is the limiting factor. This is called a short circuit analysis. When a transformer makes even greater current available, circuit breakers having the same long term current rating such as 20 amps, 30 amps, 100 amps etc. can be supplied to withstand 25,000 amps, 50,000 amps, 100,000 amps, and even 200,000 amps. These are invariably reserved for industrial applications as they are considerably more expensive. In your house, the engineers who designed your power distribution system have selected equipment which deliberately cannot supply as much as 10,000 amps on a dead short. If he didn't you'd be at risk.

Much more than just a theory, how well an engineer applies these principles to the selection of a design can be a matter of life and death. Some years back, I was responsible for accepting a consultant's electrical design for a project to install an outdoor chiller plant. The circuit breakers for the chillers were specified at 50,000 AIC (short circuit rating.) This outdoor plant was only a few feet from the utility transformer of 2000KVA with about a 5.75% impedence (that's how industrial transformer impedences are rated.) After consulting with one of my collegues, I decided to change the order to 100,000 AIC breakers. I was reminded that in all moving magnetic machinery, that the chiller motors could act as generators in a short circuit and actually increase the current available on some phases beyond the transformer's short circuit capability and clearly beyond the circuit breaker's rating. About two years later, apparantly operating at full capacity for an extended period, an internal failure in the main incoming (factory installed) cable raceway in one of the chillers caused all of the cable insulation to melt resulting in a dead short right on the load side of the circuit breaker. The circuit breaker tripped, a small fire broke out which was extinguished by a plant shift supervisor, and the manufacturer rebuilt the chiller at no cost. Had the breaker exploded, it might have taken out half the town for a day or two. It might have injured or killed someone in its vacinity as well.

[skeptic]

I don't know about you John, but I'm in no mood to train him.

[wiseburro]

Your type of wording and approach to consumerism can be applied to all the get well, weight loss, talking to the dead, penis enlargement, pyramid power, voodoo medicine, hair growth, Nigerian email, lottery, pyramid schemes and weasel and snake oil products on the face of the earth.

Here is a list of issues to beware of when you might be in the midst of parting with your hard-earned money. There are techniques used by the scammers:

1. Money back guarantee. This is a method of gaining trust. How can you lose? If you don't like it, return it for a full refund. That's because scammers know that most people will not go through the hassle of returning a product. It's human nature. And besides, a lot of the time you cannot return the product if it is working correctly. Go ahead and try to prove that your new power cord is not up to snuff or is defective.

2. Act like the little guy. This concept involves convincing people that the scammers are the David as opposed to the Goliath of the established scientific community. They show how scientists and skeptics are on their backs never giving them a chance. Everybody likes to root for the underdog, right?

3. Confidence or confiding. Again this is human nature at work. You are led to believe that you are exposed to something that most people are not or would not understand. This gives you a feeling of superiority. You are told you have special hearing and this is why other skeptics cannot hear the improvements.

4. Claims of recommendations. This is one is easy to see. Let's go read the reviews of all the people who love the product. The more reviews, the more legitimate the product appears.

5. The cost of the product is excessive. Again it is human nature to assume more expensive means better not to mention the prestige.

6. Avoid blind comparisons. Why would a product not want to be compared to another product or a gold standard?

7. Associate the product with reputable ideas. The goal here to try to form a connection between the product and a known scientific property or law. This link is easy to discredit by scientific types unless it is worded vaguely.

8. Don't make a direct claim. Scammers will rarely make a direct statement of product superiority. Instead, there will be inferences planted which would lead the consumer to make an inaccurate conclusion.

9. Play on people's desires. This is one of the most powerful weapons of a scammers. Usually the consumer already has the will to believe something to be true and thus it is not a long trip to convince him. The emotions get eleveated when in the process of believing and this will cause the consumer to miss the normal warning signs.

The next time you want to buy and new and improved audio product, apply the previous list and see how much of it applies.


That surely is a great list for the consumer to watch out for potential scams.

While I certainly respect what Mapleshade does, and Pierre Sprey's dedication to enhacing musical enjoyment, I have to state that I currently only have 5 recordings, and a set of HEAVYHAT VIBE KILLERS in my system at this time. I have tried a couple of his cables, and I have found others that work better for my system. Although I do have a friend or two that do employ his cables with great success. System synergy and delicacy of his product, being so thin and fragile, have been the biggest reasons that I am not using his cables. His return policy is first rate. Never had an issue with returning product for a full refund.

As you pointed out so well in your opening paragraph, there are a lot of people making claims from across the spectrum. My statement wasn't so much geared towards Mapleshade's claims but the fact that many people do realize a benefit from after market powercords; across the globe, spanning various different interests. To assume that each and everyone of these people is being duped is intellectually dubious. You can't ignore that. The swath is too large statisically speaking.

The market ulimately decides. You can make a bogus claim for only so long until the buying public rejects the product. Even in the most egregious examples of the placebo effect it is around 50% in medical tetsing, which DBT was truly designed for..

Back to Mapleshade. It follows a few of the rules that you might be suspect of, but it also counters a few of those. I have never seen Mapleshade advertise,...anywhere. If a person finds out about Mapleshade they find out about through word of mouth. In that instance I guess you could really argue that he isn't in it for the money because rule No.2 of business is advertise, advertise, advertise. Thse cost certainly isn't excessive comparitively.

His marketing skills are definitely not the greatest. He pretty much says it like he has experienced it, and I'm not gonna disagree, but I don't think he offers the end all.


While you certainly have the right to be skeptical, I don't think anything stated or proved in this thread is worthy of the libelous attacks that have gone on have any merit in fact, at least up to this point.

[wiseburro]

I don't know about you John, but I'm in no mood to train him.

So, was I correct in thinking that you have no experience in the audible differences amongst different powercords?

[skeptic]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

[wiseburro]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.


That's cool. At least you have tried a few for yourself.

[wiseburro]

You're right, they all sound the same to me.

That is a very interesting comment for someone that claims, "That strongly suggests to me that the need for it in a consumer audio amplifier is completely bogus."

They ALL sound the same to you? Are you telling us that you have tried a few aftermarket powercords? You wouldn't be making an unsubstantiated claim now, would you?


First, you say I'm right that you have no experience, then you claim that they all sound the same. lol

I would hate to suggest that you are lying, but your statements don't add up.


Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?

[mtrycraft]

His evidence is the the people that buy his products and enjoy them. That is all the evidence he needs.

Great. Just confirms that I am psychic. I knew exactely what you will reply. That is all the evidence I need. Thanks. Now I am a certified psychic.

Gullible audiophiles? Far too many folks have enjoyed his products for it to be considered nonsense.

I see. So, audio is exempt from bs, hyped voodoo products being enjoyed by many audiophiles? But that is exactely the only way he can sell them, based on testimonials, not science. How is that any different from anything else bogus in consumer marketplace? It isn't. He is making snake oil claims for his productes unsupporetd by data.

As for the dbt nonsense.

Nonsense? You think your highly praised engineer would call DBT listeing nonsese? If that is the case, he has certainly graduated as to his qualifications in the field of audio science.

That is your standard,[b]

No, that is the real audio industry standard, and then some.

[b] which you have every right to have, but it by no means invalidates his products.

It only invalidates the claims he makes for audibility of wires. After that, he can claim anything he likes that is not testable but an issue of preferences.


Listen to any of their recordings and they are leading edge as far as sonic reproduction. [b]

Certainly not because he uses those voodoo products.

[b] He employs his 'nonsense' as you put it it into every recordeing and they sound magnificant.

Well, whether his recording sounds as they do because of his snake oil products is yet to be demonstrated. I made no claims to his recording talents other than being great but that has no bearing on his other voodoo products he is selling.

[mtrycraft]

My statement wasn't so much geared towards Mapleshade's claims but the fact that many people do realize a benefit from after market powercords; across the globe, spanning various different interests. To assume that each and everyone of these people is being duped is intellectually dubious. You can't ignore that. The swath is too large statisically speaking.

Then, God must also exist as the number of believers is up around 90%? That does it for me, it must be factual.
I wonder how many around the world believe in psycics? I bet much more than believe in those mystic power cords, right?


The market ulimately decides. You can make a bogus claim for only so long until the buying public rejects the product.

Oh, really? How long has homiopathic medicines been around? Over 100 years and going stronger every year. What a statement on human nature, believe in mysticism more than in science.

Actually, that is what they are counting on as then they have a winner. Human gullibility will guarantee that.

Even in the most egregious examples of the placebo effect it is around 50% in medical tetsing, which DBT was truly designed for..

What is this?

[mtrycraft]

From the sound of it I think you have no experience with the audal effects of different powercords.


It is obvious you don't either, nor does the beloved designer at Mapleshade. Specualtions a plenty though. Neither of you have offered any evidence outside of tall tales by audiophiles. Far from evidence.

[mtrycraft]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

Excuse me? Sprey's evidence can be found where exactely? Don't offer testimonials that is worthless garbage.

[mtrycraft]

F-16 origins

http://www.airtoaircombat.com/background.asp?id=8&bg=27

Claims without evidence
http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/cables/messages/93478.html

Is this the same person?
http://www.namebase.org/main3/Pierre-M-Sprey.html

How about him?
http://www.oberlin.edu/newserv/stories/sprey_release.html

[Beckman]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in.

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.


(I don't expect anyone to ever reply;))

[jneutron]

? Are there any high end audio power cord design engineers out there that can explain how a three foot cord affects a 60 Hz 120 VAC signal in a way such that it improves the sound quality of anything.

(I don't expect anyone to ever reply;))

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

[woodman]

Weeeelll then...you were incorrect..

(you did say anyone..) you lose...:-)

I can tell you how to make it worse..

Take a 3 foot cord.

Strip the outer insulating jacket

untwist it

take the hot conductor, form a tight coil with it.

take the neutral, form another coil.

put one over the other so that the wires are counter to each other...IOW, so that when current is drawn, the solenoidal field is enhanced, not cancelled.

Position that coil so that it produces the most loop current within the amp/source/ic loop.

Now, watch the loop current as the amp draws haversines.

Now imagine that it couples proportional to frequency. Then introduce a coupla hundred milliamps of 5Khz sine into the power cord.

Cheers, John

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to.

If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot! You probably have a more curious, investigative scientific mind than mine and therefore are willing to consider most any proposal - no matter how unlikely - as still being within the realms of possibility and worthy of investigation. But I for one, am fed up to the very gills with people touting power cords and "hospital-grade" receptacles and power "conditioners" as providing HUGE improvements to their audio (and video) systems. In my experience (of nearly 60 years of working with consumer electronics), such claims simply have no basis in fact. Such things as "ground-loop" problems could be improved upon if not completely eliminated by properly designed power line "accessories", but that would not provide the sorts of audible improvements to the sonic quality that the audio CONEs claim.

[mtrycraft]

It is easy to make the mistake of assuming that because a guy is technically savvy about one thing, maybe even a genius, he is automatically savvy about everything else technical. Whether its John Curl, an acknowledged fine designer of audio amplifiers embarrassing himself about the quantum physics of electrical conductivity in wires or a guy named Lawrence N. who was an expert at using an Eximer Laser but didn't know beans about chemistry and insisted on installing normal carbon steel tubing and ductwork for the fluorine supply and discharge because his department didn't have a sufficient budget for stainless steel, many people blindly believe in them. The safety guy who sat mute at the meeting because he had a personal war with my division manager later admitted that in a similar installation, a small leak had done a quarter of a million dollars in damage over a weekend in another lab that another scientist had built the same way.

I don't know what role this guy played in the design of electrical control systems in high performance aircraft and these may have been low voltage power limited systems anyway, but extrapolating to the design he is marketing for a 120 volt 15 amp power cord makes me feel he has gone way out beyond his depth. It makes me suspect he was a technician who became an audio tinkerer, not an engineer. I don't think that even Jon Risch would ever propose anything like this.

BTW, to RGA who wants to know why I won't post at AA anymore, the last time I saw something this dangerous was a DIY posting at cable asylum for a power cord made out of coax and another using ferrite beads creating high impedence grounds. The guy who built monster speaker cables weaving 10,000 pairs of cat 5 telephone wire together and blew up his amplifier (I say he built a giant capacitor which sent it into spontaneous ultrasonic oscillation) didn't inspire any confidence either. Some of their proposed home brew electrical wiring projects for their houses were nightmares too. Scary.


Read my input on this- Pierre Sprey- WHO IS HE.
I have some links from a google search, including the F16 story.
Not to worry. It doesn't look like he designed an inch of that aircraft from reading the history where he is mentioned only once as to his position. He was in the Pentagon assistant somebody to sec def. He may have been instrumental in policy and defense needs of the F16 but actual design of the aircraft, I seriously doubt that, not from any of the links found.

[mtrycraft]

So, was I correct in thinking that you have no experience in the audible differences amongst different powercords?


You have any evidence that any of them have an audible sound to it? Don't try too hard looking. There is no evidence, zero. Neither does Pierre has it.
So, what is there to listen to?

[mtrycraft]

try this

http://forums.audioreview.com/showthread.php?postid=38601#poststop

and the F16 link. He is mentioned but once there. A policy wonk?

[skeptic]

Once again it is impossible to find anyone who has performed a fair test of any power cords or even has a suitable setup to conduct such a test. As I said in another posting, the only listening test I would now consider fair to even show evidence of a role any cables would play is not wire A against wire B but wire A against a shunt. DBT of course. If I were to set one up, I'd use make before break relays just the way I would with speaker cables. But then what do I know. PC Tower says engineers are too stupid to set up and conduct DBTs. So who is smart enough, clever enough, truthful enough, fair, trustworthy, decent, loves god and country enough to do the job? Lawyers.

[pctower]

You have not one shred of 'evidence' to back up that ludicrous assault on Sprey's character or his products. Shame on you.

You are touting your opinions about powercords, and nothing more.

Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?
Why do skeptics always have to rely in the histrionics of insult?

The extremists on both sides revel in insult. They have nothing better to do than hang out on audio boards and berate those with whom they disagree in a vain effort to convince themselves they are better than other people.

They have no friends (who would possibly want to spend more than 30 seconds around one of these people) and no life. The only purpose they serve is to provide entertainment for the rest of us.<!-- / message -->

[skeptic]

Does that include you Phil? Here's some of what you said on the subject in your post "Matter of perspective" barely a month ago. Stenographer, could you read back the relavent portions of Mr. Tower's testimony?;

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

"If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more is a real yawner"

"I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems."

I think you have described youself to a tee in your current post about histrionics and insults.

Your witness.

(I may have been watching a little to much Law and Order on TNT.)

[jneutron]

John, your post while it was both entertaining and enlightening (I suppose) failed completely to address Beckman"s request for someone - anyone - to explain just how a power cord can affect the incoming A-C power in such a way that it will improve the sound quality of the device it is connected to..

If you think that my post was entertaining, then we have to talk....:-)

You are correct, I did not answer the question directly.

However, to consider whether a power cord can improve sound also requires considering the opposite side of the coin...that it can make the sound worse..

My extreme example, that of re-forming the power cord into a multiple turn transformer that is coupled to the grounding loop, is just a rather visible statement that I can figure out how to make it worse..

Once that fact has been established, the mechanism is a reality..and, knowing that reality, real power cords can be tested for the same effect.

The only significant difference between a real power cord and my contrived example, is the turns ratio..I have specified perhaps 10 to 15 turns, whereas a real cord will have in effect, approximately 1/2 turn for a twisted run, or 1 turn for a parallel conductor cord.

Since the transfer function of this configuration,when current fed, is proportional to the frequency, this provides a real strong coupling coefficient for frequencies that are in the kilohertz range...

So, if you put together a system and get some hum, either 60, 180, or 300 hz, what do you think will happen to the sound when your amp draws power?

If the cordage configuration is good enough that hum is just inaudible for zero draw, and then you draw a kilowatt from the amp cord, what happens to the sound??


If you will address THAT question, I'm quite sure that your answer will reinforce mine ... that it simply cannot!..

I did, but from the other direction..

I concur with you that a lot of the snake oil needs to be given a dirt nap. That is why I'm applying engineering to the problem..a small contribution, of course, but in the right direction, IMHO.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. Of course there are some people who would argue that even noise and hum from power cords below the threshold of human hearing will affect what we can hear by introducing some sort of audible distortion which cannot be measured. That is their perpetual arguement. They know what they hear and there is nothing anyone can say to prove otherwise. Of course they will not submit to a DBT or cite one to prove their assertion. In fact, at Cable Asylum where some of the money which funds that site is supplied by people who make and sell cables, the topic is not open for discussion and if you persist in trying, you will be thrown out. Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

[jneutron]

So then if I understand you correctly the only improvement we can expect from changing power cords is a decrease in hum and noise assuming that at least some hum and noise was the result of the power cord in the first place and not all due to other causes. ?

No, you do not understand me correctly...I apologize for my inadequate explanation..

I am saying that should hum be generated in the input loop by the current draw of the amplifier, then when the amplifier is drawing much more power in response to a music signal, that will cause the hum at the input to increase.. Very large hum component will result in a modulated sound (we've all had that experience)..

If the hum is below hearing, as most of our systems are (if it isn't, we tend to fix it somehow or run the sytem over with the car), then consider:

1kW watt total amp...10 ampere sine draw at full power.., actual of say, 8 amps 60 hz, 1 amp 180hz, .5 at 300, .1 at 420 hz. (totally fictional numbers...run with me here)..Don't forget, coupling scales with frequency.

No input, the amp is drawing little power, say, 100 mA from the line (10 watts)..power cord spectra scaled down accordingly, 1/100 th of full out values..

While quiescent, no hum...it's juuuust below threshold..

Now, music...amp draws full, hum is now 100 times larger..no longer below threshold, but, most likely masked by the sound emanating from the speaker...Or, is it masked?

That's the big question..

And, if the pc loop is providing a conduit for it's draw to affect the input, which amps do not couple it's output signal to the line cord..Mil spec testing procedures are designed to look for that, as are lots of pro style equip designers, but how many amp manu's do? Electrolytic caps have half their value at 20Khz, due to reactive de-coupling of the dielectric..and nobody concerns themselves with supply geometric coupling..why, it's not been considered..


Their owner Rod proposed a mission statement which said "only positive experiences" with cables would be open for discussion. Now why would anyone want to go to a place like that? For Jon Risch, it's paradise. This self appointed tin pot god is mad with power. Mad I tell you, MAD, MAD, MAD!!!!!! Hey Phil, do you still go there? Do they still ignore you?

I have no facts with which I can counter your argument..I've looked, but to no avail...without any alternative information, I am forced to agree with you..or, at the least, not disagree with you there.

As for Phil posting there: yes, he on occasion does..but, as he provides over there the exact same message you are giving here, what do you think they do?

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

"As for Phil posting there: yes, he on occasion does..but, as he provides over there the exact same message you are giving here, what do you think they do?"

If Phil Tower is plagiarizing my mesages, I will demand royalties. BTW, I don't think Phil Tower and I have ever agreed on anything related to audio. If that day ever comes, I will have to take a long hard look at where I went wrong.

[Beckman]

Why arn't "high end" power cords used in industry at all? There is a lot of equpiment out there (function genertors, spectrum analyzers, oscilliscopes, network analyzers, etc.) that have to have much more accuarcay in the signals they produce or detect (in case of network analyzer produce and detect). Audio deals with 20 Hz - 20 kHz. I have seen network analyzers that go up to 100 MHz, and they don't incorporate any speacial power cords.

I guess I am just looking for an explanation as to why "high end" power cords are limited to "high end" audio.

[jneutron]

Why arn't "high end" power cords used in industry at all? There is a lot of equpiment out there (function genertors, spectrum analyzers, oscilliscopes, network analyzers, etc.) that have to have much more accuarcay in the signals they produce or detect (in case of network analyzer produce and detect). Audio deals with 20 Hz - 20 kHz. I have seen network analyzers that go up to 100 MHz, and they don't incorporate any speacial power cords.

I guess I am just looking for an explanation as to why "high end" power cords are limited to "high end" audio.

Lotta hype..little understanding..lotta money..and the most important thing....

How many high priced pieces of industry equipment, as part of their design, rely on the input reference ground being hard wired directly to the ground plug of a wall outlet????

How many of them pull a kilowatt while assuming the ground is stable??

How many people have had to use an isolator on a scope plug, so that it floated off ground, because ground was messing up the input....would anyone publish a scope photo in a paper, if the waveform obviously had hum riding on it??? Or a spectra with an obvious 60 hz modulation, where none is supposed to be? How many would use a power supply that increases it's 60, 180, 300, 420, 540 hz ripple as the supply draws more from the line??

The answer is none..industry takes great pains to make sure the line cord has absolutely nothing to do with the functionality of the unit....Even pro app amps use a balanced input, and make sure it's decoupled from line issues..while high end audio typically doesn't look at it all..

Look at the responses to my pics and details concerning loop issues...Chief engineers at a coupla large companies have had difficulty understanding the concepts I'm presenting..it takes a while to detail the geometries and functions to them... the stuff is mainly E/M theory, and most of the engineers I knew in undergrad and grad school faded when it came to that..I screwed the curve up on them big time..course, they toasted me in other subjects..

{Of course, now..here I am, preposterously low on the e/m food chain at work..you would not believe some of the meetings here...I certainly don't. I'm so low here that I am considered foodstock..}

That is why I had posted the concerns we deal with at work..quarter and half megawatt supplies, while (usually) not something you use at home, bring these ground reference issues right in your face.. it takes great pains to eliminate the line concerns at the input reference...especially when you're looking for sub microvolt signals..

Now...take a good look at the RCA input of your "high end amp", and measure it's resistance to the line cord ground...and explain to me why the current path you are measuring does not affect the ground reference for the amp...from 20hz to 20Khz..

BTW...even though the PC that started this discussion is, to my belief, a dangerous entity as a result of inadequate guage and insulation....it, by design, certainly does reduce coupling of it's currents to the input loop...and it ain't magic..and they certainly don't have a clue as to what it is they did to reduce it..

Random.....guesswork..nothing but trial and error...

Dammit....That's gonna change.

Cheers, John

[skeptic]

Industrial users only put their money into things that actually work. NOBODY in industry is stupid enough to fall for this gimmick. Any company that came out with such a product for industry or supplied one with their equipment would be a laughing stock to be ridiculed by its competitors. I've probably seen at 50,000 to 100,000 or more pieces of lab equipment in the countless labs I've built and visited over more than 30 years and nobody ever had such a thing as an expensive power cord with an 5-15P or 5-20P plug.

BTW, isolated ground systems which have no ground loops are the industrial equivalent of consumer audio power cords, the expensive magic bullet which will solve all problems (according to those who demand them.) Many of them are installed wrong. Furthermore, nobody I ever met either installed an isolated ground system or knows of anyone who installed one which actually solved an existing problem. This includes countless electricians and electrical engineers I've worked with. This is not to say that some special equipment didn't require special grounding but these were unusual items and their special requirements were known up front. If anyone needs a procedure to test that an isolated ground system is correctly installed, contact me via a private message. I've designed them and built them but in my experience, the added cost has been a total waste of money.

[jneutron]

Industrial users only put their money into things that actually work. NOBODY in industry is stupid enough to fall for this gimmick. Any company that came out with such a product for industry or supplied one with their equipment would be a laughing stock to be ridiculed by its competitors. I've probably seen at 50,000 to 100,000 or more pieces of lab equipment in the countless labs I've built and visited over more than 30 years and nobody ever had such a thing as an expensive power cord with an 5-15P or 5-20P plug.

BTW, isolated ground systems which have no ground loops are the industrial equivalent of consumer audio power cords, the expensive magic bullet which will solve all problems (according to those who demand them.) Many of them are installed wrong. Furthermore, nobody I ever met either installed an isolated ground system or knows of anyone who installed one which actually solved an existing problem. This includes countless electricians and electrical engineers I've worked with. This is not to say that some special equipment didn't require special grounding but these were unusual items and their special requirements were known up front. If anyone needs a procedure to test that an isolated ground system is correctly installed, contact me via a private message. I've designed them and built them but in my experience, the added cost has been a total waste of money.

Laughed at???they'd be flogged, and rightly so..

Here we have to build isolation amp systems to get around ground issues..the 440V/500 mcm 3 phase runs are so intimidating, nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground..

Yah, we have some unusual systems here..

Cheers, skep: keep up the good work...


John

[skeptic]

"nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground.."

Oh really! Then you haven't seen some of the things I've seen. The compromises ranged from the trivial to the blatently ludicrous. Here's a crazy one I remember a good fight over. Of course I won.

A large international manufacturer of electrical equipment supplied a telephone switch as part of an experimental telephone network for testing network equipment, debugging software, and training BOC personnel on using that software. (It was one of three large switches and about half a dozen to a dozen more labs connected to this "in house" experimental network.) The installers INSISTED, that I install a plastic bushing in line with the conduit run to the rectifiers "to prevent ground loops." I told them that while telephone company Central Offices (COs) may be exempt from the National Electric Code, this laboratory building wasn't and I flatly refused to comply. They were of course quite angry and upset. They told me that every switch they had installed in the network in the real world was installed this way. As it happened, one of the departments in my company wrote the specifications and set the standards for installation of equipment for Central Offices for the RBOCS. So I asked a contact who worked for them whether or not they take exception to NEC on grounding. He said absolutely not, the internal requrement for telephone company central offices is to comply with NEC in its entirety. So I told him they'd better revisit this manufacturer's switches all over the US because if these people were telling me the truth, every one of them is installed wrong.

[jneutron]

"nobody in their right mind would think of compromising ground.."

Oh really! Then you haven't seen some of the things I've seen. The compromises ranged from the trivial to the blatently ludicrous. Here's a crazy one I remember a good fight over. Of course I won. (Example)

Ummm, skep? I said nobody in their right mind.....and, I point out you called it a "crazy one"

I stand by my initial assertion...

Till we meet again...perhaps tomorrow...it's always fun

Cheers, John

[pctower]

Does that include you Phil? Here's some of what you said on the subject in your post "Matter of perspective" barely a month ago. Stenographer, could you read back the relavent portions of Mr. Tower's testimony?;

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

"If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more is a real yawner"

"I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems."

I think you have described youself to a tee in your current post about histrionics and insults.

Your witness.

(I may have been watching a little to much Law and Order on TNT.)
Of course it includes me. Do you think that if I actually had a life I would be found within less the a light year of any forum on which you spew you daily wad of vile?

[skeptic]

I once shared an office with a guy who was a pretty sharp engineer. I told him once that the only difference between us and this other guy who was a furniture coordinator is that WE know we were Al Bundy, the other guy didn't. Glad to see you have a realistic view of youself.

I'm a paraplegic shut in, what's your excuse.

Just kidding.

[mtrycraft]

Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?


Why don't you ask this question of your beloved Pierre Sprey? Obvious to anyone he doesn't know. While you are asking this question, ask for evidence for his claims, not testimonials.

[skeptic]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.

[Beckman]

[b]They have no friends (who would possibly want to spend more than 30 seconds around one of these people) and no life. The only purpose they serve is to provide entertainment for the rest of us.<!-- / message -->

:(

...

[pctower]

I once shared an office with a guy who was a pretty sharp engineer. I told him once that the only difference between us and this other guy who was a furniture coordinator is that WE know we were Al Bundy, the other guy didn't. Glad to see you have a realistic view of youself.

I'm a paraplegic shut in, what's your excuse.

Just kidding.

what's your excuse

Now there's a question I don't have a clue as to how to answer. My sanity may depend on unearthing the answer.

[Monstrous Mike]

"Maybe we should address the phenomena of engineers needing to pontificate about subjects that they have absolutely no experience in. Why do you think that exists?"

Electrical engineers don't learn about electrical conductivity in wire by taking home the latest product Joe Schmo's Hi Fi Haven is offering this week. They start in a classroom by studying mathematical models of wire, the circuits they are connected to, taking data in laboratories, analyzing it, and drawing scientific conclusions. If they are still interested, they contact people who actually make and test wire like Belden. They don't gain anything from printed advertising literature or hype on the internet. That way they wind up putting their money in their education, not wire for their stereo systems. Now how do YOU learn about it.
It pisses me off to no end when my Masters of Electrical Engineering is dismissed by phrases like "But you have no experience in audio design".

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

[mtrycraft]

Of course, that phrase might be true if audio engineering didn't follow the generally accepted laws of physics and electricity.

Does it in high end audio:) ? One only needs to read the ads :D New laws and physics :)