An example of wishful thinking?

[Resident Loser]

...Ah! Audiophiles, or at least a sub-species of them...always hearing dramatic differences and the like. Insulation, power cords, ICs, sand bags...you know the drill.

Well anywho, I was doin' some surfin' to see if I could get some info on a CD reissue of a specific record and in the process discovered the following quote in a review of a $2k loudspeaker in an online site that touts themselves as "The Complete Audiophile Magazine"...

"...As we listened to John Coltrane's "Soultrane"(Prestige7142), we were able to pinpoint the location of each musician and hear Coletrane"s breathe(sic) as he exhaled while playing the saxophone..."

Well firstly, I surely hope you can hear him exhale...I mean that's where the music is, that's how one plays the sax, no? Probably meant "inhale"...nit-picky SOB that I am...Onward and upward, and here is where the imagination bit comes into play, try as I might, I could find no mention whatsoever of there ever having been anything but a MONO release of the disk or disc...according to an addendum to the original liner notes, the disc was re-mastered using JVCs 20-Bit K2 Super Coding System from "...the original analog 1950s(Feb. 7, 1958 to be precise) material and therefore contains inherent tape flaws...etc.) ...now either these reviewers were full of it and wouldn't know mono from a hole in the "stage", were just tossing around the titles of some seminal jazz albums(also mentioning Davis' "Kind Of Blue") to convince their easily-led readers that they are cool and thus fonts of "deep" knowledge or listened to absolutely nothing at all and did a New York Times-style bit of reporting...Imaging in mono?

jimHJJ(...curious, eh?...)

[markw]

I'll leave open the possibility (notr... not a guaranteed fact) that perhaps, just perhaps, they recorded each insturment on separate tracks. If this is the case, then it's possible that when remixing this they could pan each insturment to where ever inthe sound stage they choose.

Now, whether or not this will result in exactly the same physical placement that the tracks were set down or is he wishful remix engineer's input is another matter entirely.

Markw (did I cover my fuzzy buns sufficiently, Jim?)

[Resident Loser]

...thought about that...many reissues are re-processed into stereo...couldn't find one in my brief surfin' safari...so I took along some water and supplies and a change of skivvies and set off for the big trek...

Found an interview with Rudy Van Gelder, the engineer who did the session in his studio in(and you'll love this) Hackensack-ack-ack-ack-ack...answering a question re: the advent of stereo and the LP:

"...who wants to buy two albums of the same music? You had to make both of them available and that became very difficult so what happened was everything that was made in Hackensack was mono. Even towards the end when we were recording in two-track we weren't listening in stereo..." "...because there was only one speaker in the Hackensack control room and only one speaker in the studio. So how could you listen in stereo when you only have one speaker? And all the judgements, Alfred's(Alfred Lion of Blue Note) judgements, as to mix and balance, and mine too and the musicians too and how they sounded in relationship to each other, and all during the entire creative part of those recordings was done in mono. It couldn't be any other way..." "...Towards the end we were running two-track sessions but no one had ever listened to them. So there was no particular attention or attempt at creating a stereo field at that time..."

While anything is possible, the CD was released in '91, the souped-up JVC version later on...both mono...a DCC Jazz (re-done by Steve Hoffman) release came along and while I can't verify 100% it's monophonic status, Coltrane's "Lush Life" another RVG recording in '58 (also by Hoffman) was licensed to DCC only as a mono release...so one takes a flying leap of conjecture, it may have been a "package" deal...hybrid SACD re-issues by JVC and MFSL releases post-date the speaker review and the MFSL is definitely mono according to my sources...it's impossible to get any sort of answer from JVC...I kept gettin' phone numbers for "service" and "customer relations"!!!

Maybe we should get the opinion of PCT re: all this circumstantial evidence?

jimHJJ(...or maybe not...)

[woodman]

I'll leave open the possibility (notr... not a guaranteed fact) that perhaps, just perhaps, they recorded each insturment on separate tracks. If this is the case, then it's possible that when remixing this they could pan each insturment to where ever inthe sound stage they choose.

Then again ... NOT! You came up with a somewhat plausible, possible"explanation" for the phenomenon of "soundstage" and "imaging" from a mono recording, only it cannot and will not fly. Simply because the advent of multi-track recorders (to allow the recording of each instrument on a separate tape track) didn't arrive until the late 1960s or early 1970s. Prior to that time, all instruments were recorded on just the one mono track, so no "panning" was possible to place different instruments in unique positions across a "soundstage". There were numerous attempts to accomplish this seemingly impossible task using special filters - none of them very convincing in the least.

[Monstrous Mike]

......now either these reviewers were full of it and wouldn't know mono from a hole in the "stage", were just tossing around the titles of some seminal jazz albums(also mentioning Davis' "Kind Of Blue") to convince their easily-led readers that they are cool and thus fonts of "deep" knowledge or listened to absolutely nothing at all and did a New York Times-style bit of reporting...

Imaging in mono?

jimHJJ(...curious, eh?...)
Nice try jimHJJ.

Anybody whose thoughts, ideas and beliefs do not match your seemingly sensible diatribe will just throw it in the dust bin. Contradictions must be dismissed to keep life stable.

It's like convincing a Jehovah's Witness that they are in a semi-cult. Have you ever heard of Peter Popoff?

I have a theory called "The Mother of the Murderer". The theory goes that even given a mountain of evidence the mother will never believe her son is a murderer. Case closed.

[aurobot]

Simply because the advent of multi-track recorders (to allow the recording of each instrument on a separate tape track) didn't arrive until the late 1960s or early 1970s. Prior to that time, all instruments were recorded on just the one mono track..

Wrong. True stereo recordings have been available since the mid fifties (though not widely until the late fifties). These albums consisted of live performances, or in the case of studio recordings, the best take for each track, in essence a live recording, with some instruments mixed to one channel and some instuments mixed to the another. It was accomplished with both synchronized mono recorders (in the film industry mainly) and, most commonly, two-track tape machines, which is what RCA used for its first stereo recording, a classical album recorded in 1954 with two Neumann mics. It's true that these early stereo recordings were mixed to mono for release. Stereo was not generally available until 1957, when the first true stereo phono pickups hit the shelves. Even then interest and program material was limited to Classical devotees. Popular music was almost always mixed to mono for general release until the mid sixties. However, recent (and in the bootleg realm, not so recent) releases of the Beatles demonstrate there are true-stereo recordings of the Beatles dating all the way back to their first album, released 1963, since from the very beginning the Beatles were recorded to two-track masters. I have no idea about the jazz recordings discussed here, but stereo was definitely in existence in the late fifties.

[woodman]

Wrong. True stereo recordings have been available since the mid fifties (though not widely until the late fifties). These albums consisted of live performances, or in the case of studio recordings, the best take for each track, in essence a live recording, with some instruments mixed to one channel and some instuments mixed to the another. It was accomplished with both synchronized mono recorders (in the film industry mainly) and, most commonly, two-track tape machines, which is what RCA used for its first stereo recording, a classical album recorded in 1954 with two Neumann mics. It's true that these early stereo recordings were mixed to mono for release. Stereo was not generally available until 1957, when the first true stereo phono pickups hit the shelves. Even then interest and program material was limited to Classical devotees. Popular music was almost always mixed to mono for general release until the mid sixties. However, recent (and in the bootleg realm, not so recent) releases of the Beatles demonstrate there are true-stereo recordings of the Beatles dating all the way back to their first album, released 1963, since from the very beginning the Beatles were recorded to two-track masters. I have no idea about the jazz recordings discussed here, but stereo was definitely in existence in the late fifties.

No, not "wrong" ... just a bit incomplete from your point of view. We were not discussing when stereo recording came into being - I was responding to MarkW's post in which he brought up the possibility of recording each musician on a separate track ,,, a feat which was not accomplished until the late '60s as I stated, when true multitrack tape recorders started to come into use in recording studios.

I'm fully aware of when stereo recording became available - I purchased my first stereo tape machine in 1958.

[IsmaVA]

is the "mrkw-scenario" possible?

[woodman]

is the "mrkw-scenario" possible?

Yes, it would be possible IF each musician could be recorded on a separate track. Then, each one could be "placed" aurally anywhere across the "soundstage" that the recording engineer wanted.

In the case at hand, it was NOT possible because the true multitrack tape recorder that would enable such a scenario to take place, hadn't showed up on the scene yet (when the subject recordings were being made).

[IsmaVA]

so, it is not possible . . .:-)

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yes, it would be possible IF each musician could be recorded on a separate track. Then, each one could be "placed" aurally anywhere across the "soundstage" that the recording engineer wanted.

In the case at hand, it was NOT possible because the true multitrack tape recorder that would enable such a scenario to take place, hadn't showed up on the scene yet (when the subject recordings were being made).

Imaging is not always a function of pan pot positioning. Microphone placements also can emphasize imaging. A-B stereo position uses the timing of the instruments sound arriving at the microphone to establish a "stereo" position. The Blumlein setup also emphasizes left to right imaging, as well as very good front to back. All it takes is two microphones, and a two track tape machine, or hard disk storage(depending on whether you record digitally or analog)

[markw]

... and finding that there was no multi-tracking available, then I'd have to agree with Jim that yes, it is simply wishful thinking on some poor, gullible aw-dee-oh-fyle's part.

Yep., sometimes you do what you want to hear. Now, if I could just "wish" that my little Minimus 7]s sounded like Maggies, maybe, just maybe...