Need advice for a warmer amp

[Demetrio]

Rotel, Adcom, Nad, ATI, Bryston, Proceed...

What is a good WARMER amp?

Demetrio.

[Mash]

If you want a warmer amp, simply restrict or prevent cooling air from reaching your amp while it is "on". If you are willing to expend a little more effort, you could place your amp on your stove cooktop while it is "on" and set the cooktop to "simmer". These solutions will all provide a warmer amp.

Now, if you want a more neutral and possibly more accurate amp.........

[Demetrio]

Warmer sounding, I meant (in opposition to bright). But you know what I meant.

Thanks anyway for taking your time to reply something, even for a joke.

Demetrio.

[NickWH]

How about none of the above?

Take a look at Audio Refinement Complete, YBA, Plinius, SimAudio...

Or take a look at tubes...Antique Sound Labs, Jolida, etc.

[WmAx]

Rotel, Adcom, Nad, ATI, Bryston, Proceed...

What is a good WARMER amp?

Demetrio.
Sounds like you are attemptig to E.Q. your setup with an amplifier. This is a poor way to E.Q., as the cost for this change, if any, is uncontrollable/unpredictable and very expensive cnosidering the tiny adjustment you MAY achieve.

Consider a verastile, low-noise E.Q. such as the Behringer DEQ2496 DSP equalizer. With some effort, you can tailor an adjustment curve that is nearly infinite in variability. IF you desire, you can use this device from the digital output of your cd player, feed to DEQ2496, and use an external DAC connected to the DEQ2496. The unit also as built in ADA, AD and DA conversion possibilities.

http://www.zzounds.com/item--BEHDEQ2496

-Chris

[Mash]

Demetrio
Yes, I was joshing you.

Most speakers will not sound warmer or cooler simply because you have changed amplifiers. Most speakers will continue sounding the way they sound irrespective of the amp you are using. If you have a hard-sounding speaker, you would usually do best by replacing it.

The one set of exceptions to the above rule that I know about are Magnepan speakers.

Magnepan speakers will indeed sound quite different with different amplifiers. Magnepans sound best with good (do not read 'expensive') tube amps, while a good Class A solid state amp (MF A2 or A220) can also be very satisfying when used with a Magnepan.

[mtrycraft]

Rotel, Adcom, Nad, ATI, Bryston, Proceed...

What is a good WARMER amp?

Demetrio.


Why are you asking this question? What are you trying to accomplish or is the problem?
Have you thought of using the tone controls on the amp/pre you already have? It is free, after all, if they have one. If they don't, that is unfortunate.

[psonic]

"Rotel, Adcom, Nad, ATI, Bryston, Proceed...

What is a good WARMER amp?

Demetrio."

Demetrio, warm greetings to you my friend. It seems you are shopping for an amp and prefer something warm sounding as opposed to bright. In that price range, I would say go listen to B&K, NAD and Rotel. The first 2 are warm and full bodied amps, though some will argue about NAD, I owned several and would describe it as full bodied, deep sounding, not overly detailed or etchy so seeming a bit warm. B&K is a very nice sound also, very enjoyable and always described as a "warm tube-like solid state amp". I have listened to them extensively on Vienna's & Sonus Faber at Tweeter. The rotel rb981 (basically the newer rb1070) I also own, it is a fantastic amp with that is basically extremely neutral and revealing with strong tight bass, not mellow or warm by any stretch but maybe the best, most transparent SS amp I've heard under $1k new. I agree that tubes may be a good choice as well, Jolida & Antique are lower priced. See below and try to find a local dealer to listen and keep us posted....

http://www.bkcomponents.com/st125.asp

http://www.nadelectronics.com/hifi_amplifiers/C272_framset.htm

http://www.rotel.com/products/specs/rb1070.htm

[hifitommy]

Why are you asking this question? What are you trying to accomplish or is the problem?
Have you thought of using the tone controls on the amp/pre you already have? It is free, after all, if they have one. If they don't, that is unfortunate.

tone controls/eq will not produce the same results as changing amps or preamps. dilfferent size and quality power suppplies and parts quality is a mitigating factor in electronic sound not to mention better design characteristics of some products.

tubed electronics can be used for a more fluid sound as electrons tavel 100 times faster in air than in a solid state device (i can hardly wait for the barrage on that one).

tone cotrols have different curve characteristis that arent always compatible with the needed change in eq assuming that eq might be adequate. a high quality parametric eq would probably be the best and they are as rare as hens teeth.

[gonefishin]

Need advice for a warmer amp


warmer than what?





Could you describe your system and room?

[mtrycraft]

tone controls/eq will not produce the same results as changing amps or preamps.

Only an opinion on your part.


dilfferent size and quality power suppplies and parts quality is a mitigating factor in electronic sound not to mention better design characteristics of some products.

Interesting assumption, excluding the power supply which would affect the power. I am sure you have evidence for any of these suppositions?

tubed electronics can be used for a more fluid sound


What is a fluid sound? Any industry deffinision of this?


as electrons tavel 100 times faster in air than in a solid state device

100 times? I am sure you have the data for this too, right?

(i can hardly wait for the barrage on that one).

Your wish come true.

tone cotrols have different curve characteristis that arent always compatible with the needed change in eq assuming that eq might be adequate.

Certainly more change that from a different amp. But then, that would burst a few bubbles.

[RGA]

Now here is a warm amp and I have proof - http://img.audioasylum.com/cgi/view.pl?u=users/64&f=passeggs.jpg&v=f&UserImages=64&session=&l=32&moniker=AbeCollins&invite=&w=800&h=609

[noddin0ff]

:eek:
tubed electronics can be used for a more fluid sound as electrons tavel 100 times faster in air than in a solid state device (i can hardly wait for the barrage on that one).

Whooooah!...and there's how much 'air' in a vacuum tube? hifitommy, I was learnt that air was a pretty good barrier to electron flow (as in a good insulator). Hence the need for a vacuum. Maybe you had a different science class?
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_1/2.html

Demitro, it could also be your room that is 'bright' you could add some less reflective room treatment, move your speakers around, or your furniture. Could be an even cheaper mod.

noddin0ff

[hifitommy]

in a vacuum. sorry. vacuum tubes. doh!

[noddin0ff]

Apologies, to hifitommy for the sarcasm!

noddin0ff

[Beckman]

Someone mentioned speaker placement. Try this method:
http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

Someone also mentioned new speakers, one thing you coud try is putting an appropriate size capacitor across the tweeter. Probably something around 50 microfarrad. Don't try this unless you know what you are doing though.

[Demetrio]

Thank you guys for all the inputs.

I should have mentioned before that my speakers are Paradigm (Monitor 7 fronts, Titan in the surrounds), and I find them just a bit little bright sometimes. Nothing to worry that much, in fact I really appreciate the way they sound, I just want to avoid getting a bright sounding amp if I decide, one day, to make an upgrade of my current front amp (Rotel RB-980BX).

My listening room is properly treated already, so I don't think there's anything wrong with acoustic regards.

Since I am also planning doing some upgrade of speakers in the near future, let me get the chance for just another question: are the Paradigm Studio series just a bit little warmer sounding (or neutral, if you prefer) than the Monitor series? If so, I think they would fit perfectly on my tastes...

Again, thanks all.

Demetrio.

[RGA]

Well what do you think? You're surely not buying these based off of the reviews are you?

If you don't like the Monitor series very much - then do yourself a favour and start looking at other brands you may find you like somethig a lot better from someone else. Might even be from a brand you've never heard of. Listening though is a requirement - browsing from magazines and what people tell you to buy or reviews isn't going to cut it.

[okiemax]

Rotel, Adcom, Nad, ATI, Bryston, Proceed...

What is a good WARMER amp?

Demetrio.

My first experience with a "warm sounding" solid state amp was a NAD 3020 integrated about 30 years ago. I would call it warm sounding compared to the Pioneer receiver it replaced. I don't know that all NAD amps sound warm, but you might check the reviews here on this web site. NADs are relatively inexpensive.

[noddin0ff]

Since I am also planning doing some upgrade of speakers in the near future, let me get the chance for just another question: are the Paradigm Studio series just a bit little warmer sounding (or neutral, if you prefer) than the Monitor series? If so, I think they would fit perfectly on my tastes...


Hi Demetrio. I own Studio 20's v2, Studio CC-470 V3, MiniMons V3, and Titans v2. My impression is that the V3's seem only slightly brighter than the V2. But across the line (studio,monitor,titan) the tonal quality is very well matched. You just get much more detail and better range as you go up the product line. The Studio V3s have a newer tweeter, excuse me, 'high-frequency driver' than my 20's. They introduce the new parts at the high end and the old bump down the line.

I personally equate 'brightness' with 'accuracy' to some extent. I think you hear a little more edge to some music (brass, metal strings for example) with the V3's because you are reproducing the sound better. The CC seems more crisp than the Studio 20's but the overal tonal balance is essentially the same. They blend well. I'm still a little conflicted as to which sound I prefer. I lean toward the V2 20's over the V3 CC. I think really I'm just used to them. Maybe the extra 3 years break in (vs 6 months) is the reason.

The Studios versus the Monitors...its like the Studios are the same speaker just better! You wont go back.

Hope this helps,

Noddin0ff

[aurobot]

paradigms are efficient enough for a good vintage integrated. There are a great number of very fine amps on the used market. Get a williamson circuit design like the Eico HF-81, have it recapped if necessary and cleaned throughout, have the tubes checked. If the chassis, switches and transformers are in good shape, mostly rust-free with no serious dents or other signs of abuse, chances are you've found an amp that will serve you well for many years. I can personally vouch for the HF-81/Titan combination, it's fantastic. As for the other set you mention, make sure the speaker is decently efficient, and if so, they should be ok with a tube amp as well. Although with many tube amps, including the HF-81, you can set the balance ("focus" on the HF-81) to left or right, and you will be running the combined power of the two channels through the one channel, basically using the amp to power one speaker. (you'd need two amps for this!) You would be sacrificing a normal phono stage with the HF-81 and it can only handle two speakers at a time. But you'll have more warmth, literally and figuratively, than you'll know what to do with.

[newbsterv2]

....and they definetely have a little bit of brightness. Of all the speakers I've owned however they are probably the most neutral and avoid those nasty midrange colorations many speakers in all price ranges have. My advice is this. For the best sound quality try to sit at least 10 feet away from the speakers and try to have your ears level with the space between the tweeter and the first woofer below the tweeter. Also toe the speakers in so that the tweeters "cross" each other a couple feet behing your listening position. I've found that these speakers can sound amazing if set up properly. Sitting too close will definetely drive you crazy. That and having a poor quality amplifier/source.



Thank you guys for all the inputs.

I should have mentioned before that my speakers are Paradigm (Monitor 7 fronts, Titan in the surrounds), and I find them just a bit little bright sometimes. Nothing to worry that much, in fact I really appreciate the way they sound, I just want to avoid getting a bright sounding amp if I decide, one day, to make an upgrade of my current front amp (Rotel RB-980BX).

My listening room is properly treated already, so I don't think there's anything wrong with acoustic regards.

Since I am also planning doing some upgrade of speakers in the near future, let me get the chance for just another question: are the Paradigm Studio series just a bit little warmer sounding (or neutral, if you prefer) than the Monitor series? If so, I think they would fit perfectly on my tastes...

Again, thanks all.

Demetrio.

[WmAx]

[QUOTE=hifitommy]tone controls/eq will not produce the same results as changing amps or preamps.
This is entirely correct. Obviously, adding an equalizer in-line will not add the additinoal switching/etc. features of a new preamp or change the power output, etc. of a power amplifier. However, assuming the difference desired is tonal, then an EQ is the only logical one if you are not intended to change speakers. Some amplifiers will add audible levels of even order harmonic distortion. This can not be emulated with an equalizer. However, it is possible to emulate this effect with DSP, but I don't know of a device meant to do so for music reproduction systems.


dilfferent size and quality power suppplies and parts quality is a mitigating factor in electronic sound not to mention better design characteristics of some products. Indeed, differenst size power supply does matter, as well as quality. If the power supply is too small, the amplifier simply will have lower maximum power output. If the power supply is poorly designed, then line noise may not be adequately filtered, thus resulting in an artifically high noise floor.



. a high quality parametric eq would probably be the best and they are as rare as hens teeth.[
I can not read your mind, so I don't know what you mean by 'high quality'. However, assuming you mean low noise, low distortion and powerful tone shaping abilities, the Behringer DEQ2496 is an excellent 'high quality' device. At it's price, and with it's incredible performance, I recommend this device as often as possible.

-Chris

[skeptic]

"tubed electronics can be used for a more fluid sound as electrons tavel 100 times faster in air than in a solid state device (i can hardly wait for the barrage on that one)."

Rather than a barrage, a question or two. What do you mean by more fluid sound? How does the speed of electrons in a vacuum create more fluid sound? How about the speed of electrons in wire? Does that make the sound more or less fluid? Wire is not a vacuum either.

[skeptic]

"However, assuming the difference desired is tonal, then an EQ is the only logical one if you are not intended to change speakers."

There are at least two major differences between most vacuum tube and most solid state amplifiers. Most Vacuum tube amplifiers whether class A or class AB use a common cathode circuit with a plate output. The plate output is a high impedence circuit not suitable for coupling to a loudspeaker without an impedence matching transformer. On the other hand, most solid state amplifiers are common emitter circuts with a collector output. This is an inherently low impedence circuit. This can be capacitively coupled, DC coupled, or coupled with an autotransformer or other transformer as McIntosh did with some of its ss amplifiers. The characteristic curves of tubes and transistors and their differences are IMO bogus arguements favoring tubes. While it it true that FET transistors have comparable curves to vacuum tubes, even bipolar transistors have adequate linear regions and learing how to use them to avoid crossover notch distortion in class AB amplifiers took solid state amplifier designers several years to learn but once they figured it out, they were way ahead. SS amps generaly have orders of magnitude less harmonic and intermodulation distortion than even the best tube designs.

It is the high impedence nature of the plate circuit and the limitations of the output transformer which IMO give vacuum tube amplfiers their characteristic sound. Hysterisis and eddy current losses are something you rarely hear about in vacuum tube amplifier performance. This can compromise the high end. Not only is the frequency response much less linear for tube amplifiers, much more dependent on the load, and the distortion levels much higher, but the effective damping factor, the ability of the amplifier to cope with back emf and control the motion of the speaker cones especially from large poor or marginally damped woofers is much worse. The tonal result is often an indistinct treble and a boomy bass. If this is what is meant by warmer, I prefer cooler.

A parametric equalizer is a superb tool for solving many problems if you have the suitable test equipment and the knowledge to use it. You can adjust the center frequency, the Q or width of the filtering action, and the amplitude. You can tailor the equalizer very nicely to your particular need. Unfortunately this is usually beyond the ability of most audiophiles to make good use of. Therefore the popularity of the fixed Q 10 and 12 band graphic equalizer. Even a 1/3 octave equalizer is far more complicated than most audiophiles can make good use of. As for ten band equalizers, most audiophiles don't like them because even there they are often unsuccessful adjusting them and regard them as useless distortion causing toys. BTW, I have an equalizer in every sound system I listen to music through at home.

[WmAx]

It is the high impedence nature of the plate circuit and the limitations of the output transformer which IMO give vacuum tube amplfiers their characteristic sound. Hysterisis and eddy current losses are something you rarely hear about in vacuum tube amplifier performance. This can compromise the high end. Not only is the frequency response much less linear for tube amplifiers, much more dependent on the load, and the distortion levels much higher, but the effective damping factor, the ability of the amplifier to cope with back emf and control the motion of the speaker cones especially from large poor or marginally damped woofers is much worse. The tonal result is often an indistinct treble and a boomy bass. If this is what is meant by warmer, I prefer cooler. The net result is frequency response differential and distortion differences. In an ideal tube design, an adquate transformer should be used to retain a linear frequency response(low output imedance). The tube gain stages should not be designed to operate into audible thresholds of distortion. Of course, both of these problems seem common. The frequency response difference of a poorly damped output stage is directly addressable with E.Q., the distortion(if present) is not easily addressed.

-Chris

[Sounds88]

Demetrio,
just bought an older hybrid tube amp, it's a luxman Lv-103 , hard to believe it's 20 years old and it sounds so much better than an old Dynaco st-70 or scott 222 that I was using. The Lv-103 sound is warm , full and lush. I have had yamaha receivers and denon recievers. Btw , I have some inexpensive B&W 603's. My 2 cents.

[hifitommy]

WmAx: "I can not read your mind, so I don't know what you mean by 'high quality'. However, assuming you mean low noise, low distortion and powerful tone shaping abilities, the Behringer DEQ2496 is an excellent 'high quality' device. At it's price, and with it's incredible performance, I recommend this device as often as possible."

you hit the nail on the head as to what i mean by high quality. and BTW, how much is the behringer? if theres an affordable parametric out there, lets find it.

power supplies can be beefy without putting out great amounts of power. if i am not mistaken, john atkinson used a 50wpc krell for a few years as a reference in his personal system. krells have massive power supplies. BAT is another company that utilizes brute force power supplies, even in their preamps. products like that have VERY solid sound.

[WmAx]

you hit the nail on the head as to what i mean by high quality. and BTW, how much is the behringer? if theres an affordable parametric out there, lets find it. The Behringer DEQ2496 is approx. $400 USD. Here is one for $340:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHDEQ2496

I don't specifically recommend the retailer. This is just the first link google gave me.

It also is extremely flexible for end-use. You can use the unit in digital domain purely, inputing your digital stream, having all modifications done digitally and then outputting the digital stream to your favorite D/A convertor. Alternatively, it can operate as a D/A, A/D/A or an A/D convertor. Your choices are many.

As skeptic warns, it is difficult/time consuming to set up an E.Q. to enhance sound quality. The Behringer features a 31 band/channel graphic eq, 10 band/channel parametric eq and 3 band dynamic eq per/channel.




power supplies can be beefy without putting out great amounts of power .

That is true. I was referring to the limiting of an amplifier stage by insufficient power supply. With the inverse, the output power is limited by the amplifier stage, as you note.

-Chris

[hifitommy]

[QUOTE=WmAx]The Behringer DEQ2496 is approx. $400 USD. Here is one for $340:

http://www.samedaymusic.com/product--BEHDEQ2496


it sounds MORE than flexible.

one further note, premium components on the boards will also improve and have a distinct effect on the overall sound, bringing one closer to the original sound. this is an area where the liquidity of the sound occurs, hence a perhaps warmer sound, that is, closer to the truth.

[skeptic]

Having given some time to think about what you said, I have to agree. The poor damping by some tube amplifiers can be overcome through equalization and when properly used, a parametric equalizer is the ideal tool for the job. Similarly, any rolloff at the high end and other frequency response irregularities should also be possible to be overcome using an equalizer. Of course this is all within the power bandwidth limitations of any particular amplifier and it cannot overcome non linear distortion. With effort, a fine vacuum tube amplifier should sound about as good as a fine solid state amplifier with no significant audible difference.

[hifitommy]

Having given some time to think about what you said, I have to agree. The poor damping by some tube amplifiers can be overcome through equalization and when properly used, a parametric equalizer is the ideal tool for the job. Similarly, any rolloff at the high end and other frequency response irregularities should also be possible to be overcome using an equalizer. Of course this is all within the power bandwidth limitations of any particular amplifier and it cannot overcome non linear distortion. With effort, a fine vacuum tube amplifier should sound about as good as a fine solid state amplifier with no significant audible difference.
tubes and ss sound more alike than different. so, yes, with effort, a fine ss amp should sound about as good as a fine tubed amp, with no significant difference.

[Sounds88]

Hi,
I"m not a stereo snob, but like good sounds , I cannot afford Rotel, Bryston, Musical Fidelity or McIntosh. I"d say to listen to a tube amp or hybrid tube amp. Last week, I swapped out my denon av1400 for a 20 year old Luxman Lv-103 hybrid tube amp and I just love the sound. The Bass is deep and the highs are clear and smooth, not harsh, and the soundstage sounds more lush, more liquid. Definitely more "presence" in the music. Some say it's due to more IM distortion as solid state parts filter out the distortion, strangely, some distortion appears to be good. Not sure, about the distortion stuff, except the tubes seem to sound warmer and I paid under 200 USD on Ebay. I use B&W 602, two way speakers that are Bi-wired with heavy monster cable, with a denon 5 cd changer. I listen to Jazz and soft rock. I have had dynaco st-70 tube amp and a yamaha Rx-7 receiver, neither has the warm, lush sound of my Luxman Lv-103 integrated amp.

[hifitommy]

"Some say it's due to more IM distortion as solid state parts filter out the distortion"

some will say ANYTHING to bolster their beliefs and position. i tried an arc sp3a1 that opened my ears to the fact that tubes do NOT warm everything up and make them fatter. instead, i found that tubes opened up the frequency extremes, dynamics, and firmed up the tonal colors of music.

yes, there are designs that do the very things that i mentioned first but not all tubed designs are the same or have the same effects. much of the best of tubes comes through with most tubed designs which makes their shortcomings much easier to take than those of ss designs with other flaws.