Does Bose know that they are hated?

[Widowmaker]

I've been to many HT boards and one thing that they all have in common is that everyone thinks Bose is crap. This got me wondering if Bose knows that they are not only disliked but vilified by audiophiles. Do they read the various HT forums and boards? If so, do they actually formulate marketing strategies to counter the audiophiles?

Also, how in the heck do they get away with what they get away with? Are Bose buyers really that ignorant to buy speakers from a company that does not fully disclose specifications for their products? Would they buy a car without knowing how much horsepower or torque it has or even its gas mileage?

[Resident Loser]

...I see quite a few high-end mfrs. who rely more on flowery prose and unsolicited "testimonials" than specs...and besides specs don't tell the whole story...at least that's what some of the more "golden-eared" among us constantly say...

jimHJJ(...BTW, what exactly is Bose "getting away" with?...)

[kelsci]

I've been to many HT boards and one thing that they all have in common is that everyone thinks Bose is crap. This got me wondering if Bose knows that they are not only disliked but vilified by audiophiles. Do they read the various HT forums and boards? If so, do they actually formulate marketing strategies to counter the audiophiles?

Also, how in the heck do they get away with what they get away with? Are Bose buyers really that ignorant to buy speakers from a company that does not fully disclose specifications for their products? Would they buy a car without knowing how much horsepower or torque it has or even its gas mileage?

Widowmaker; what you say above is all so true, but it may only matter to BOSE what their balance sheet states. I would think their assets must be in good order or they would have been out of business along time ago. This means that somebody must feel the urge to splurge on their products and that somebody could be many somebodies who do not know anybetter.

[samgupta]

I don''t think Bose really cares--their business model must be working or else they would have changed it by now.

One thing that keeps them around is that audiophiles make up a very small part of the population. They cater not to the audiophile but to the general masses. And for these people, they have done a very good job of creating the impression that they are worth the price.

My $.02...

-Sam

[IsmaVA]

Most people do not think BOSE sucks, so they don't worry about it . . . :-(

[Bryan]

Bose got their name and reputation years ago. Their advertising caters to the masses who wish for small speakers and all in one systems. Think back to when you didn't know better. You probably thought Bose was good. Of course, now their Lifestyle and AM systems are easily bested by factory direct gear and other gear locally available. This being said their marketing still caters to the decor department and not to those who know better. Bose knows they are disliked. They just are big enough not to care. If their bottom line becomes negative they will change.

[Widowmaker]

...I see quite a few high-end mfrs. who rely more on flowery prose and unsolicited "testimonials" than specs...and besides specs don't tell the whole story...at least that's what some of the more "golden-eared" among us constantly say...

jimHJJ(...BTW, what exactly is Bose "getting away" with?...)

Specs may not tell the whole story, Loser, but they are a good starting point. Other manufacturers may rely on "flowery prose" and all that but at least they stick to the common practice of releasing specs which makes me suspicious of any other manufacturer who does not follow suit.

Just what is Bose getting away with? How about all the "research" that they claim to do, how about not releasing aforementioned specs, how about their ridiculous price to manufacturing cost ratio, I could go on and on.

I guess the existence and proliferation of Bose (and Monster Cable to a lesser extent) just shows that if it's packaged and marketed right, if it has a high price tag, people will automatically think that it is good.

[IsmaVA]

One thing that most people don't know is that BOSE does a lot of research in areas other than audio, like vibration analisys, adaptative control systems to name just a few.

Maybe they are like pharmaceutical companies, overpricing the product to fiance other ventures . . .

[CWS]

IMO

I owned a Bose Acoustimass setup for several years. I was mostly happy with, it was easy to move (small size) while I was in college and sounded great for parties (Loud and Boomy). Now that I have been in a house for several years I now appreciate more natural and accurate speakers. They sell well because they are marketed VERY heavily. The pricing remains high because of their tight dealer pricing controls and high demand. I bought mine on the grey market and saved 50% I would not have bought them for full price. When customer's demand for Bose lower's so will the price or potentially they could mod the product to increase demand. Bottom line as others have said if they sell well then they will continue to do what they are doing it works.

[Woochifer]

Bose is an easy target because they are the biggest speaker manufacturer out there. Their basic products are not bad per se, but typically a poor value compared to the competition. A lot of the vilification of Bose is unjustified if we're just talking about their products because I've heard worse. But, when they are all over the airwaves with their incessant infomercials and pretty much anywhere in the audio arena we get bombarded with their marketing propaganda about how unique and great everything they make is, then it stirs things up quite a bit. A lot of people believe everything that Bose tells them about Bose, while others believe everything that the Bose haters tell them about Bose.

My view of Bose is pretty simple -- if their products weren't typically overpriced by a factor of three, then I don't think anybody would take issue with them. But, because they try and position themselves at a higher market plateau than they should, they get a lot of flack from people who know that Bose does not deserve to be mentioned along side comparably priced competition. And it gets to a fever pitch of resentment because a lot of buyers believe that Bose is the best at their price point no matter what their ears might be telling them. It's like a butcher trying to sell ground beef at filet mignon prices. It might be good ground beef, but no matter how it's priced or packaged, it will never be filet mignon. But, if that butcher incessantly markets his ground beef and convinces customers that it's every bit as good as filet mignon, then a lot of them very well might wind up taking that stuff home and indeed believe that it tastes as good.

[Weister42]

Bose's main goal is to make speakers that can "disappear" from view and still sounds good enough to make an average listener happy, not to mention your significant other will appreciate that her "space" are not occupied by giant boxes. IMO Bose does a good job at trying to make hi-power small speakers, but no one can defeat the law of physics; bigger speakers are almost always more efficient and can cover wider range, especially if your listening room is huge. I think you can buy comparable speaker systems that costs a lot less than Bose, but I bet those speakers are bigger and won't dissolve into your home decoration.

I've never listened to a Bose audio system and I'll probably never buy Bose speakers, mainly is because I'm more of a "my-speaker-is-bigger-and-louder-than-yours" type of guy :)

[ibhim]

Welcome to Marketing 101. The goal of marketing is to convince the target audience that this is the widget that will serve your every need and motivate you to action. The target audience is not the audiophile, but the masses. They are the ones to most likely to react to name recognition when the need speakers and the marketing department has done complex statistical research to identify and define the needs of the masses and saturated them with it through focused advertising. Buy that widget now bucause this is what you are looking for even if you don't realize it.

Name recognition is huge withing the masses. Dare I say it, but if there was a suggestion of B&W, the masses would think you were talking about a root beer. :D

Bose has been around for years to build the mystique. While their revenue may be reaching established growth goals, they have an advantage - they don't have to publish it as they are a private company. If they were a public company, they would have to report earnings, and any dip in earnings would have shareholders and analyst screaming for product improvement - forcing the issue that they are able to avoid.

When things settle down in August, I am about to become a proud owner :eek: of Bose as I search for that 'perfect' speaker. It will become the standard to educate the rest of the family as I compare it against other speakers. I figured out how I could do it for free. Sams Club has the Accumass 10II (previous generation - subwoofer passive/unpowered) with very liberal return policy, up to one year - but interest free for 90 days. Just keep the box, packing material, and receipt. That is 3 months to compare with others having 30 day trials, side by side in my own home. How sweet is that!

[Resident Loser]

...as it causes me to search for things I normally wouldn't care about...this is a case in point...

Specs, yes let's talk specs. I visited a few of the names I constantly see bandied about here and there and what I found isn't surprising to me...many speaker mfrs. don't quote freq resp numbers...Of those who do, some give the category as "bandwidth" which is meaningless unless a tolerance is stated. Some say 20Hz-20kHz, some say 20Hz-50kHz and others say 20Hz to beyond ultrasonic(?). So much for the validity of specsmanship! Others who give a +/- Xdb qualifier specify loading characteristics, with or without port plugs that sort of thing...and just how are these numbers reached? Are they composites?...Are they strictly quoted as paperwork estimates based on individual driver response specs with the crossovers factored in? Are they anechoic responses? Are the woofers close miked, measured and then spliced to the remaining limited bandwidth of the other drivers? Unless they reveal the measuring protocols, they don't mean zip!

Bose are Bose, everything else is something else...you can't compare apples and oranges...they are completely different in design and application, in fact you really can't listen to either type and base your opinion of one based on the paradigm of the other...it does not work...period. If you don't like Bose, don't buy them, don't listen to them but, let others make up their own minds...that's why there is vanilla and chocolate...

I've heard Acoustimass stuff and they seem OK, particularly for most HT(which is a hideous abberation anyway IMHO), the Waveradio is overpriced, but sounds remarkable if set up properly: I actually have one...won it in a contest, probably would never buy it. Nice clock-radio...Then of course there's the WAF...you really can't beat them on the decorating front and most of us must make some compromises in life.

The older 901s are pretty damn good IMO, but again if you're looking for the simple boom and tizz of direct radiators, it ain't gonna' happen...the bottom can be quite good outright, but they do require a different mind-set to fully appreciate them.

Are they overpriced...well advertising costs $$$, everything you buy has those costs factored in and guess who pays?

"Research"? Bose doesn't have a monopoly on that word...others have used it to the same end...and there certainly is R&D...even if it's finding new ways to make things cheaper or develop marketing strategies...

As I recall Polk and Infinity used to be some of the cognescenti faves, but have fallen off their respective pedestals because they "sold out"...fickle lot dem audiopiles!

As long as the market is there, they will carry on...and be "hated" all the way to the bank! Sob...

FWIW, I don't think Ma and Pa Kettle really care about horsepower...they want a nice looking, safe and comfy vehicle...mileage is another story. Unfortunately, those EPA numbers don't really mean squat...

jimHJJ(...and BTW, one of those mfrs. sites I visited, badmouths one of their own, who produces "little plastic boxes" while extolling the virtues of their own single enclosure which can psychoacoustically fool you into beliving it's producing five channels of surround sound!...I wonder what that specs out like?...)

[skeptic]

They are laughing all the way to the bank. A privately owned company which has nine hundred million in sales isn't bad for an MIT professor who started out less than 40 years ago. While the performance of their equipment may not please most audiophiles, I can say that at least some of their products are manufactured to very high production standards. And they will be around to service what they make and sell. And you can see and hear the products in convenient places.

Audio Note's specifications are not only scant, they are misleading. While most manufacturers give you minus 3db points for their loudspeakers, they give minus 6 db making their apparant range especially on the low end look more impressive. Can you name any cable manufacturers which give complete specificatons for their products.

Guess whenever things slow up and it gets boring, you can always get things going by starting a Bose bashing thread. It always seems to work. But it gets tiresome after the first few thousand times.

[E-Stat]

They are laughing all the way to the bank.
Indeed. The objective for most businesses is making money, not satisfying critics. I would venture to say that most Bose customers are quite pleased with their products. Bill Gates is a zillionaire because he markets the most popular OS, not the best or highest performing one.



Can you name any cable manufacturers which give complete specificatons for their products.
Interesting question. Here are specifications from two manufacturers with which I have experience. Is anything missing?

Nordost Valhalla speaker wire:

Insulation: High purity class 1 extruded FEP
Conductors: x 40 optimized diameter in Micro Mono-Filament construction
Material: 78 microns of extruded silver over 99.999999% OFC
Capacitance: 11.8pF/ft
Inductance: 9.6uH/ft
DC Resistance:
2.6ohms/1000ft (304M)
Speed: 96% speed of light
Dimensions: 2 1/8 inches or 5.5cm wide and 0.039 inches or 0.1mm thick

JPS Labs Superconductor Interconnect:

Capacitance per 0.5 meter - .00000000004 Farad
Inductance per 0.5 meter - .0000001 Henry
Resistance per 0.5 meter - .005 Ohms
(total of both conductors)
Cable diameter - .45/11 in/mm
Maximum usable frequency - 1.0 Gigahertz

rw

[topspeed]

Amar Bose may be an MIT professor but he thinks like a Harvard MBA. His company's touts regarding research can be readily verified simply by looking at the proliferation of Bose products. He was the first and certainly most successful audio manufacturer to recognize the importance, and moreso profitability, of brand diversification. He also understands the value and nuturing of brand management. Look around you, you'll find Bose in your home (home speakers), car (ugrade audio option), airports (PA systems as well as noise cancellation headphones), mall retailer (commercial ceiling mounts), etc.. Ask Joe Schmo on the street and they'll tell you Bose is great. That my friends, is effective marketing. I would venture to say that Bose's marketing dept. absorbs as much as, if not more, capital that their acoustic research dept. and I'm completely fine with that. E-stats comparison to Microsoft is spot-on. This is business, pure and simple.
I doubt Dr. Bose cares if audiophiles hate his products as he could buy and dismantle every "hi-end" boutique audio company so revered by audiophiles with his pocket change. In fact, don't give him any ideas or he could end up being a lot more like Bill Gates than any of us care to imagine. Yeek.

You gotta admire the guy, whether you like his products is irrelevant.

[skeptic]

Got any specs for 16 gage zip cord?

OK now that we've got 'em, anybody know how to use 'em.

Mr. Neutron, where are you? Turned into a neutrino or sumpin'?

[Mash]

I wonder: Is estat impressed with this nonsense??

Nordost Valhalla speaker wire:

Insulation: High purity class 1 extruded FEP
Conductors: x 40 optimized diameter in Micro Mono-Filament construction
Material: 78 microns of extruded silver over 99.999999% OFC
Capacitance: 11.8pF/ft
Inductance: 9.6uH/ft
DC Resistance:
2.6ohms/1000ft (304M)
Speed: 96% speed of light
Dimensions: 2 1/8 inches or 5.5cm wide and 0.039 inches or 0.1mm thick

OFC = Oxygen Free Copper, and the reason for the very existance of OFC, and the ONLY reason for the existance of OFC, is to be able to form generator bars that do not crack during the forming prrocess. OFC is electrically identical to regular copper. Any other reason to utilize OFC is pure BS for the unerinformed who are impressed with meaningless nonsense. When I see one attribute that is meaningless or misapplied in a specification, I have found it safe to conclude the entire specification "package" is useless marketing hype for the underinformed.

[skeptic]

Are the wire specifications useful? If you know how to solve simple network equations and have the specifications for the output impedence of your amplifier and the impedence of your loudspeaker in resistance, capacitance, and inductance, the answer is yes, they can be. What do they show? When solved they will give you the losses as a function of frequency, in other words the frequency response for a given length of wire in a particular circuit. They will also show that in most cases the effect is negligable at audio frequencies. How negligable? They are deliberately designed to be virtually non existant unless someone goes out of their way to make them otherwise. Nobody has shown that there is any other type of effect such as a non linear distortion effect caused by wire at the levels and frequencies of audio systems. When John Curl posted a thread about Fermi velocity of electrons on CA some months back which I read during one of my rare visits, I nearly fell out of my chair laughing. Not only didn't he understand it or know what it meant, he might as well have been seeing a fortuneteller or a soothsayer looking for any knowledge. And when he started referring to Resnick and Halliday, a 40 year old physics text used by engineering freshmen and sophomores, it made me wonder if this guy didn't have a screw loose in his head. Neutron, aren't you embarrassed to admit that you even engage him in discussion in public over the internet?????

BTW, if you do take out a book on network analysis to solve these equations for yourself, you will need a background of 2 years of calculus and a six month course of ordinary differential equations. If you've mastered those subjects, you will have all of the necessary intellectual tools to get the answers and understand them. Any third or fourth year electrical engineering students out there? What no takers? Anybody got a web site with a handy dandy canned software package to get the answers without doing the work?

[C Bennett]

As long as you have some(actually a whole bunch) uninformed people that believe everything they read such as all the BOSE testimonials you see in Mags,TV,infomercials,etc and don't actually listen so several other brands and make decisions BOSE will still sell a bunch of product. I had a guy going on about how his "wave radio" probably sounded better than most peoples stereos. Then when I questioned him about it he sounded just like a BOSE comercial on why it was better(soundd like he was reading his response off a pamphlet in the wave radio box) When I asked what he had listened to for campariosn he said nothing he bought it off reputation and recomendation of "friends". As long as there are people like this they don't have to do much to "pull one over" on anyone the masses are doing it themselves with little to no push.

[E-Stat]

I wonder: Is estat impressed with this nonsense
I'm not impressed with any static measurements. I was responding to skeptic's question.

rw

[E-Stat]

Got any specs for 16 gage zip cord?
The inductance for 12 gauge zip is about triple that of the JPS Labs Superconductor +

<a href="http://audioholics.com/techtips/audioprinciples/interconnects/CrossCoax_vs_ZipCord-p1.htm">Alcoholics zip cord measurements</a href>

<a href="http://www.jpslabs.com/PDF/instsuperspkr.pdf">JPS Labs spec sheet</a href>

Does that make any difference? Try comparing by tripling your existing wire length and see. With my electrostats and tube amps, there is a difference.

rw

[NewAudioBuff]

Well, I have searched for some speakers that could take upto 200 watts of power with such small dimensions. I couldn't find any except bose. Or atleast not at that price size and sturdyness.
As long as you live in an apartment or a smaller space I think bose is a good solution if you like small size and scalable power (but I agree that its over priced a bit based on the quality of sound. But real quality of sound?? hmmm..I'm not sure how feasible that would be in a normal home/apt environment. I'll discuss that later. ). Their speakers are Easy to move around and carry around. Each speaker can deliver upto 200 watts which is not very common given the size of the speakers. Most Receivers you see will only deliver upto 130 watts (normal is around 110 watts). Only the very high end receivers deliver above 150 watts /channel. ONly with good amps you can get upto 200 watts and hey, you can still keep the bose speakers to handle them. But any other satellite speakers in the price range (lets say price of accoustimass 10) and size cannot handle that power.
Now if you want refined audio experience, we all agree we need to go for bookshelf/tower type speakers from other audio manfucturers. But even if you get all these refined equipment, a normal apt. or home walls are really not constructed to enjoy the perfect audio experience. To enjoy the real experience it needs more refinement with wall materials which reduce reverberation, echo and other problems.

In summary I would say, they have speakers which can handle a large amount of load and sturdy too. I haven't heard any of my friends complain that their bose speakers are dead. But about the price, well , you pay for the power /size ratio and longevity but necessarily not for the sharpness and refinement in sound quality.

[N. Abstentia]

Well, I have searched for some speakers that could take upto 200 watts of power with such small dimensions. I couldn't find any except bose.

WHOA! I almost spit Mountain Dew Code Red all over my screen when I read that!!

Bose speakers will NEVER handle anything CLOSE to 200 watts. You've been fooled by the Bose marketing. Have you ever seen a 2" full range driver with a half-inch voice coil handle 200 watts of continuous power??? Answer = no.

[This Guy]

Yeah it's absolutely impossible for them to handle 200 watts. Maybe, just maybe it could handle a 200 watt peak signal for a milisecond. PLus I don't know anyone that would buy a nice amp that puts out 200 watts a channel and give it to a Bose speaker, it would be an absolute waste of money. And you can connect a speaker to an amp that can put out more power than the speaker, it doesn't mean you have to get rid of the speaker or it will get ruined. Hell for 2 years, I've had my 400 watt rms amp connected to my horn sub that only handles 60 watts and it's running as good as it ever has. You just have to know when to turn it down.

-Joey

[NewAudioBuff]

WHOA! I almost spit Mountain Dew Code Red all over my screen when I read that!!

Bose speakers will NEVER handle anything CLOSE to 200 watts. You've been fooled by the Bose marketing. Have you ever seen a 2" full range driver with a half-inch voice coil handle 200 watts of continuous power??? Answer = no.


......FROM WHAT BOSE'S SPECIFICATION SAYS IN THEIR MANUALS:

"Compatible with A/V Receivers and Amplifiers rated from 10 to 200 watts [not peak watts] per channel rated from 4 to 8 ohms"

Here is the link to the PDF file from bose site. You can find it in the "TEchnical Information" Section:
http://www.bose.com/controller;jsessionid=ATdkIZ5lUEcOdHHnDtklzUFRhnq2 26kuoUzBcxrD2yOZtGJsQj2N!1943904572?event=VIEW_PRO DUCT_PAGE_EVENT&product=am16_surround_index&pageName=/home_entertainment/theater/systems/surround/index.jsp

The PDF is on the r.h.s of the page " Owners Guide".

[Kursun]

WHOA! I almost spit Mountain Dew Code Red all over my screen when I read that!!

Bose speakers will NEVER handle anything CLOSE to 200 watts. You've been fooled by the Bose marketing. Have you ever seen a 2" full range driver with a half-inch voice coil handle 200 watts of continuous power??? Answer = no.
Simple Math:
Bose 901 has nine such drivers, so each handles 200/9= 22 Watts.

[This Guy]

I belive he was talking about the jewel cubes, cuz they have 2.5" drivers, the 901 has 4.5" drivers and therefore would be able to handle much more power.

-Joey