Am I fooling myself? [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

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RobertKruz
06-10-2004, 06:12 AM
Reading a couple of posts here I have noticed a lot of mention of bias so I thought this would be a great place to ask this question. I recently picked up a monster cable hts 1000 power center with filter. Now I don't know if it just my imagination but it sounds as if the sound is more muffled now. Can a power bar actually do this? Or are the couple of review I read tricking me into believing this is happening?

It sounds like, and this is the only way I know how to explain this, the music isn't as enveloping as it used to be. I tried going back and forth between just the outlet and the power strip but that's not really a good test. Any suggestions? And scientifically is it possible for a power bar to have this kind of effect? Do you think I should just go out and purchase a plain high quality surge protector, and if so any suggestions on brands I can look up on ebay?

Monstrous Mike
06-10-2004, 06:37 AM
And scientifically is it possible for a power bar to have this kind of effect?
There is no adequate scientific explanation as to how a power cord or power bar or line conditioner can affect the sound of an audio system. There are only reports from happy and unhappy customers based on their own experiences.

Some have tried to explain why and how a power cord/power bar/power strip, etc. can affect the sound but none of these explanations are valid or supported by anything factual. Like most audio "tweaks" or upgrades which have no basis in science, the personal pleasure of the "improvement" is solely at the discretion of the buyer.

Protecting your audio equipment from surges is a worthwhile endeavor but using power cords to change the sound coming from your speakers is mostly an Internet driven phenomenon with the goal of separating you from your money, IMHO.

I have worked on the design of some very sensitive electronic equipment for the military and in no case has the power cord been a factor in the design. Either audio designers are on the cutting edge of technology and are poised to sweep the entire world of electronic engineering with innovative concepts or they simply throwing out ideas with the purpose of making their business more profitable.

You will get all kinds of repsonses from people who say their power cord brought their system to life from out of the doldrums. In the end, you decide where your money goes. I say spend it on room acoustics, good speakers and lots of decent source material but that's just me.

okiemax
06-10-2004, 07:51 AM
Reading a couple of posts here I have noticed a lot of mention of bias so I thought this would be a great place to ask this question. I recently picked up a monster cable hts 1000 power center with filter. Now I don't know if it just my imagination but it sounds as if the sound is more muffled now. Can a power bar actually do this? Or are the couple of review I read tricking me into believing this is happening?

It sounds like, and this is the only way I know how to explain this, the music isn't as enveloping as it used to be. I tried going back and forth between just the outlet and the power strip but that's not really a good test. Any suggestions? And scientifically is it possible for a power bar to have this kind of effect? Do you think I should just go out and purchase a plain high quality surge protector, and if so any suggestions on brands I can look up on ebay?

You may not find the scientific explanation you are seeking, but that doesn't mean you didn't hear a difference. You didn't say whether you noticed the difference with each component or just the amp. You might compare the !000 power center with a surge protector from Radio Shack.

RobertKruz
06-10-2004, 07:57 AM
I think you're right. The amount I paid is just too much either way. I'd rather just buy more CDs :) I'm going to go pick up a decent surge protecter and give it a try

skeptic
06-10-2004, 08:39 AM
I suppose people will try just about anything. Is it possible to build something that would interfere with the operation of audio gear that was intended as a "power conditioner"????? I'd bet the answer is yes. How about a series inductor meant as a "noise filter." Could this cause a voltage drop that would compromise the performance of audio equipment? It might especially if the current draw compared to the size of the inductor is great enough. This goes to the heart of the unfortunate reality that you practically have to be an engineer to know whether the advertising for the products you buy are legitimate claims or just hype. In fact, sometimes you have to be an engineer just to figure out if you actually have a problem at all that needs fixing or, if they have invented a problem that doesn't actually exist. Sorry to have to be the one to tell you this but I'm sure that the manufacturer will cite testimonials in his ads by people who were thrilled with the vast improvement it made in the sound of their equipment. I know he's thrilled with the improvement the sale made in the performance of his bank account. Kaching, kaching, kaching.

RobertKruz
06-10-2004, 09:26 AM
LOL I'm starting to feel silly for paying so much for a surge protector. But on a more practical side how should I hook up my system to get the most out of it? Are there things I shouldn't plug into the same plug in my surge protecter will be in? How about cable bunches? Is it ok to tie them togther to make them look neat? Before the surge protector I had a 6 way splitter plugged into my two plug jack (Lots to power, my amp, cd player, tv, ps2). I was thinking of maybe just running an extension cord from farther away just for my cd player and amp. Any thoughts?

skeptic
06-10-2004, 12:46 PM
There is a real risk of damage to all appliances in both your home and where you work from various electrical disturbances of all kinds including surges, spikes, voltage that is simply too high and believe it or not, voltage that is too low, sags, dips or even drops out altogether. These are not just theories. I've seen the aftermath of all kinds of trouble including the MIS managers wringing their hands after their data has been corrupted on a pc after an electrical storm or even worse, the pc is damaged and they don't even know it until a week or two after the event. Most motors have all kinds of protection but if they don't and they stall out from voltage dips, they can be damaged too. Expensive and frustrating.

What can you do as a homeowner without a kings ransom to spend? Unfortunately the level of protection you get often depends on how much you spend. But in the consumer audio and electronics game, what you spend can be a lot more than what you get. I've seen some pretty expensive scams targeted at industry as well and believe it or not, people fell for them spending big bucks on things that didn't have a prayer of working. So what can YOU do for reasonable cost. One thing is to invest in inexpensive MOV surge protectors. RS used to sell them for about $9 each. You plug them into the wall and you plug your outlet strip, extension cord or whatever into them. Under normal conditions, they do nothing. But if the voltage rises above 176 volts, the peak of a 120 volt sine wave, they go into a conduction mode and shunt your appliances momentarily and thereby prevent them from seeing very much higher voltages that could damage them. These devices do get damaged themselves and if the neon light inside goes out, it may mean that they need to be replaced. More robust versions can protect your whole house and are meant to be installed in your circuit breaker panel. Hubbell and others sell receptacles which have them built in so you can replace your receptacle if you know how to do this safely. Otherwise get the help of an electrician or someone else who does. They are also available built into power strips. In their raw form, they are as cheap as $2 each. The real protection which industry pays megabucks for is a UPS. Not only does it protect from complete power failure until its internal batteries run down, it usually affords total isolation between input and output. Good ones even for PCs often cost quite a bit. I'd personally avoid the consumer types marketed to audiophiles and go for the industrial manufacturer's types sold by electrical supply houses. Try Powerware (Exide), Liebert, MGE (Square "D") or Sola. If it has a built in computer grade isolation transformer, so much the better.

As for cable management, there are lots of products available. Try Home Depot. Tie wraps from companies like Thomas and Betts are inexpensive and easy to use. Home Depot markets them in a large clear cylinder in the electrical department. There are spiral plastic wire managers, decorative surface raceways you can apply with double sided tape to your walls or molding and paint whatever color you like made by companies like Wiremold and Hubbell and a host of other products. One rule of thumb is to avoid running power cords along side of signal cables, especially phono cables since there is the risk of inducing hum into your system.

RobertKruz
06-11-2004, 08:35 AM
The UPS protection you mentioned would I be able to purchase them at Home Depot and such? And when you say pricey what are we talking?

Robert

skeptic
06-11-2004, 10:14 AM
I don't think you will find them at Home Depot. Certainly not a selection of them. You need to go to a large electrical supply house where electrical contractors buy equipment for the jobs they do. You can probably look up the different manufacturers on their web sites to find local distributors. These products should be nationally available. You're looking probably at at least $200 to $300, maybe more. I haven't priced them in a while. Look for units with very low harmonic distortion. I think any of the brands I've mentioned would do just fine.

Beckman
06-11-2004, 11:12 AM
LOL I'm starting to feel silly for paying so much for a surge protector. But on a more practical side how should I hook up my system to get the most out of it? Are there things I shouldn't plug into the same plug in my surge protecter will be in? How about cable bunches? Is it ok to tie them togther to make them look neat? Before the surge protector I had a 6 way splitter plugged into my two plug jack (Lots to power, my amp, cd player, tv, ps2). I was thinking of maybe just running an extension cord from farther away just for my cd player and amp. Any thoughts?

About the only problem you can run into when using different outlets for audio/video equipment that is connected to together is with ground loops. These cause a humming sound that most of us have experianced at one point or another. Ground loops are caused when a component has two paths to ground. A path to ground can include cable TV, antennas, power outlets, etc. Here is some info regarding ground loops and how to correct them:
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/groundloop/index.html

studranger
06-11-2004, 05:46 PM
bob-i have the hts 2000 and its on a sony wega 42 in tv lcd-and the pic quality on std stns is amazing!! cleaned up the snow and grain-using video in and out -and its NOT my imagination-i for one hear NO diff in audio system-onkyo-infinity-monster cables-adcom

Beckman
06-12-2004, 04:10 PM
Here is a link to some easy to understand info on surge protectors:

http://computer.howstuffworks.com/surge-protector.htm,