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okiemax
06-02-2004, 10:36 PM
I was looking at the Naim Audio web site today, and noticed they recommend you have a dedicated circuit for your audio system. Also, Naim recommends you use a power strip that doesn't have a circuit breaker, noise filter, light switch, or fuse. They don't like power conditioners and surge suppressors. The link provided below has more information (go to Questions & Answers.) Do Forum members have comments on these recommendations?

http://www.naimusa.com/main.html

F1
06-03-2004, 07:13 AM
Haven't read the article.
Imo one can do anything to improve the sound, but please don't jeopardise safety by removing those safety devices like fuse or circuit breaker. If anything happen, who's responsible, can you claim Naim?

Beckman
06-03-2004, 02:42 PM
If Naid makes such high quality components, their power supplies should be able to handle a voltage swing of a couple volts. After all, that is what transistors, zener diodes, and voltage regulators are for.

One thing that I do agree with is using a dedicated power strip would help eleiminate ground loops. But a dedicated circuit breaker, overkill.

E-Stat
06-03-2004, 03:05 PM
But a dedicated circuit breaker, overkill.
Overkill for what? My amps pull 20 amps by themselves at maximum power.

rw

E-Stat
06-03-2004, 03:19 PM
Haven't read the article.
Your response would likely have been different if you had.



...but please don't jeopardise safety by removing those safety devices like fuse or circuit breaker. If anything happen, who's responsible, can you claim Naim?
A dedicated circuit is simply a dedicated line from your circuit breaker box with that is not shared by other home appliances. There are a number of devices such as computers that spew some nasty stuff into the AC. In my case, I also have a current issue with amps that pull 20 amps at maximum output. So I have two dedicated circuits (with breakers, naturallly) wired by the electrician who wired the entire house during construction. Had you read the article, you would have found that Naim's recommendation was to have an electrician wire the dedicated circuit.

rw

skeptic
06-03-2004, 03:48 PM
Naim should stick to audio equipment and leave power distribution to the National Electrical Code committees who know far more about it than they do. An MOV safety device is a prudent idea which should not cost very much and provide some protection against elevated voltages associated with lightning strikes on power lines. A plug in MOV protector from RS costs abotu $9. It probably will not protect your equipment against a direct hit. A UPS is the ultimate protection agianst power system disturbances. Good ones unfortunately are very expensive. Whether a UPS makes your equipment sound better or worse is not the point, it will protect it from damage. ALL MIS managers want and usually use UPSs to protect critical data hardware equipment. So should you if you can afford it. For home use good ones run about several hundred dollars.

MOVs designed to be installed in your circuit breaker panel supplied by such companies as Square D and other manufacturers of electrical power distribution equipment can protect every electrical device in your home from elevated voltages caused by most lightning induced electrical disturbances. Talk to your electician about cost and efficacy if you are in doubt.

Wiremold is a manufacturer of metal and non metal surface mounted electrical raceways often used in industrial laboratories and others including power poles for open landscape offices. There is nothing special about hospital grade receptacles except that their design causes the ground pin to be the first conductor to make contact and the last to break contact reducing the likelihood that an electrical spark will cause flamable material to ignite if there is an oxygen leak, a real hazard in a hospital room. There are many other fine power strips. This whole business of power strips, receptacles, and power cords is very overrated. I don't spend any money on it and I don't recommend that anyone else does either.

If you have a very high powered amplifier that requires in excess of about 10 amps, a dedicated circuit might be of some benefit some of the time. And then again it might not.

E-Stat
06-03-2004, 04:00 PM
...leave power distribution to the National Electrical Code committees who know far more about it than they do.
Ah yes, I'm sure they know far more than do many audio companies as to what causes audible differences in music systems. :D

rw

mtrycraft
06-03-2004, 04:04 PM
Ah yes, I'm sure they know far more than do many audio companies as to what causes audible differences in music systems. :D

rw


Well, if the audio companies really knew that, then you could be right. As it is, many are just speculating about it, no real evidence. You know what that is?

E-Stat
06-03-2004, 06:55 PM
Well, if the audio companies really knew that, then you could be right. As it is, many are just speculating about it, no real evidence. You know what that is?
Collective hysteria from a wide range of manufacturers with no possible motive.

rw

Beckman
06-03-2004, 07:46 PM
Overkill for what? My amps pull 20 amps by themselves at maximum power.

rw

Quote from Naim website:
"NOTE: Unlike many systems that use vacuum tubes or class-A circuit topologies, your Naim system needs very little power. The constant power demand of a Naim system is very small when played at normal levels, this advantage reflected in the extended longevity of Naim Audio equipment."

Most people don't have 4000 watt amps.

E-Stat
06-04-2004, 03:59 AM
Most people don't have 4000 watt amps.
Quote from Naim website:

The advantage of a dedicated circuit is that your system will not be sharing power directly with other appliances in your house on the same circuit. Tremendous distortion of the power wave may occur if the circuit shares power with a refrigerator or personal computer (or worse, a humidifier or heater). This can reduce the system's performance considerably.

Most people have refrigerators, heaters, or personal computers.

BTW, 20 amps = 2400 watts / 120 volts

rw

Resident Loser
06-04-2004, 05:06 AM
...how exactly does a dedicated circuit distance itself from fans, compressors and other noise-makers?...considering the fact that they ultimately, and quite "directly", share the same service...surely that extra 20amp circuit breaker and a few feet of Greenfield or Romex doesn't cut it...

jimHJJ(...or is it the cryo-treated Seymour and Pass hardware?...)

Beckman
06-04-2004, 08:41 AM
Quote from Naim website:

The advantage of a dedicated circuit is that your system will not be sharing power directly with other appliances in your house on the same circuit. Tremendous distortion of the power wave may occur if the circuit shares power with a refrigerator or personal computer (or worse, a humidifier or heater). This can reduce the system's performance considerably.

Most people have refrigerators, heaters, or personal computers.

BTW, 20 amps = 2400 watts / 120 volts

rw

20 amps * 120 Volts = 4000 Amps ?, excuse my math:(

But the question is what is tremendous distortion of the power. Even if the power is distorted (has harmonics) why can't the amplifiers power supply take care of it? Naim claims that this can reduce the systems performance considerably. They must have poorly designed power supplies in them.

Resident Loser
06-04-2004, 09:04 AM
...that surrounds some facets of the hobby...

A well regulated power supply should take up the slack...the AC is rectified into pusating DC which is then filtered, etc., etc. etc. and it comes out here! It's been argued about for years @ this site...along with aftermarket power cords, which wouldn't even exist save for the manufacturing economies gained in using the IEC connectors...or eutectic solder formulations, which were intended for assembly-line PCB solder baths...or use of Teflon in cables, which was intended to be fire retardant in specific situations...

It's a combination of a certain "mystique" based on a kernel of fact, bragging rights and blatant flim-flammery that drives many of these precepts of the "golden-eared" ones...and some manufacturers are more than willing participants.

jimHJJ(...caveat emptor...big time!!!...)

okiemax
06-04-2004, 09:31 AM
Naim should stick to audio equipment and leave power distribution to the National Electrical Code committees who know far more about it than they do. An MOV safety device is a prudent idea which should not cost very much and provide some protection against elevated voltages associated with lightning strikes on power lines. A plug in MOV protector from RS costs abotu $9. It probably will not protect your equipment against a direct hit. A UPS is the ultimate protection agianst power system disturbances. Good ones unfortunately are very expensive. Whether a UPS makes your equipment sound better or worse is not the point, it will protect it from damage. ALL MIS managers want and usually use UPSs to protect critical data hardware equipment. So should you if you can afford it. For home use good ones run about several hundred dollars.

MOVs designed to be installed in your circuit breaker panel supplied by such companies as Square D and other manufacturers of electrical power distribution equipment can protect every electrical device in your home from elevated voltages caused by most lightning induced electrical disturbances. Talk to your electician about cost and efficacy if you are in doubt.

Wiremold is a manufacturer of metal and non metal surface mounted electrical raceways often used in industrial laboratories and others including power poles for open landscape offices. There is nothing special about hospital grade receptacles except that their design causes the ground pin to be the first conductor to make contact and the last to break contact reducing the likelihood that an electrical spark will cause flamable material to ignite if there is an oxygen leak, a real hazard in a hospital room. There are many other fine power strips. This whole business of power strips, receptacles, and power cords is very overrated. I don't spend any money on it and I don't recommend that anyone else does either.

If you have a very high powered amplifier that requires in excess of about 10 amps, a dedicated circuit might be of some benefit some of the time. And then again it might not.

I agree that a UPS is the best protection against lightning strikes, particularily those that accomodate a TV cable. However, I am not so sure about surge protectors. Despite what many people believe, surge protectors may not protect audio/video systems and computers against lightning, and the false sense of security may result in the equipment remaining connected during an electrical storm when it should be disconnected at the wall. I also wonder whether many users know that surge protectors wear out, and check occasionally to make sure they are still operating. Moreover, some of the older models do not have thermal fuse protection and can catch fire.

I would be interested in opinions on safety issues with the Wiremold L10320 power strip which Naim recommends. Since this nine-socket power strip does not have a circuit breaker or fuse, the user must rely on the one in the wall box. With so many sockets available on this model, users who didn't know better might overload the circuit. I don't see audiophiles connecting irons, room heaters, and vacuum cleaners to one of these power strips, but you never know. Of course you can overload a circuit just using the wall outlets too, but the nine sockets offer additional opportunities. Are other problems possible? Do codes address the use of power strips not having circuit breakers?

Resident Loser
06-04-2004, 09:51 AM
...If it is(and I have no reason to think Wiremold products aren't) case closed!

Just about everything in audio land maxes out little or none of the time, current-wise...anywho, that's why the ckt breaker is there...now, if you plug in a toaster, hairdryer and space heater...well, you do the math...

We used to use twelve outlet powerstrips manufactured for WE to UL specs for power supplies connected to older analog telecom systems with a certain level of constant draw...certainly more that the newer systems...even in the worst case heavy-traffic scenario, never once did a breaker go south...

Anyone who claims to pull 20 on a 20amp ckt on a regular basis must spend an awful lot of time in the basement re-setting breakers...

jimHJJ(...or is close to deafness...)

Beckman
06-04-2004, 10:42 AM
Anyone who claims to pull 20 on a 20amp ckt on a regular basis must spend an awful lot of time in the basement re-setting breakers...

jimHJJ(...or is close to deafness...)

What kind of amps draw that much current on a regular bases? What kind of human being could stand listening to an amp turned up that loud?

E-Stat
06-04-2004, 07:49 PM
Even if the power is distorted (has harmonics) why can't the amplifiers power supply take care of it? Naim claims that this can reduce the systems performance considerably. They must have poorly designed power supplies in them.
Beats me. I'm sure you have designed, built, and sold far better.

rw

E-Stat
06-04-2004, 08:03 PM
What kind of amps draw that much current on a regular bases?
If you're referring to my post, here is the answer:

<a href="http://vtl.com/pages/mb450specifications.html">VTL MB-450</a href>

If you read my post again, you will find that is the maximum current draw running tetrode. Most of the time I listen to comparatively wide dynamic range music so the average power level is far less. Unless, of course, I choose to crank some uncompressed 45 RPM 12" Madonna singles. I just don't want to starve the power supplies or trip breakers.


What kind of human being could stand listening to an amp turned up that loud?
Well if I used PA horns, you would be correct. I don't. Guys like Mr. Stravinsky, Mr. Borodin, and Mr. Orff do have some tunes that require a whole bunch of peak power to drive my electrostats though. I just got back from a wonderful concert at the ASO with Howard Shore conducting his epic soundtrack from "Lord of the Rings" with the full symphony and chorus. I would need multiple kilowatts of power to approach the dynamics I heard from Row B. Simply staggering.

rw

Beckman
06-04-2004, 08:32 PM
Beats me. I'm sure you have designed, built, and sold far better.

rw

Please read the part on linear regulated power supplies:
http://www.educatorscorner.com/media/Exp93c.pdf

Every power supply I have designed has smelled like melting plastic when plugged in. Don't think I could sell any of those, not to mention UL wouldn't certify them(I hope) :)

Beckman
06-04-2004, 08:40 PM
Guys like Mr. Stravinsky, Mr. Borodin, and Mr. Orff do have some tunes that require a whole bunch of peak power to drive my electrostats though.

Good taste in music. Nice speakers. Nice amps. I appologize for questioning the validity of your previous statements.:)

E-Stat
06-05-2004, 06:18 AM
I appologize for questioning the validity of your previous statements.:)
Apology unnecessary. According to my RS meter, peak output at my listening chair during power listening is in the mid 90s. I do not like ear bleeding levels as I treasure my hearing. You will find me wearing earplugs whenever I use power tools, mowers, etc. For target shooting, I wear earplugs and headphone style protection.

Arguably, I may only need the full output of my amps for merely seconds out of an hour, but the sense of authority or effortless power is one of the cues that conveys the full sense of emotion from the music.

rw

okiemax
06-05-2004, 11:27 AM
20 amps * 120 Volts = 4000 Amps ?, excuse my math:(

But the question is what is tremendous distortion of the power. Even if the power is distorted (has harmonics) why can't the amplifiers power supply take care of it? Naim claims that this can reduce the systems performance considerably. They must have poorly designed power supplies in them.

I wouldn't describe Naim amps as poorly designed. According to one source, the 15 watt Naim Nait could supply up to 10 amperes into awkward loads, and worked well with the difficult to drive Quad ESL-57 speakers.

http://audio-nirvana.fortunecity.net/pag_eng/amp4quad.htm

But Naim designs are quirky. The amp output stages operate in Class-B rather than Class-A/B, have no Zobel network, and accept only bananna terminated speaker cables and DIN interconnects. Naim cautions against using any speaker cables other than their own, which are relatively inexpensive, and I suppose are designed to compensate for the lack of the Zobel network(provides inductive damping?). I don't recall specifically, but I believe a minimum length of speaker cable also is recommended.

The founder of Naim died a couple of years ago. It will be interesting to see if new management changes the approach to designing equipment. The compatibility with other makes is limited, and could handicap attempts to grow the business. There could be a conflict between remaining unique and growing(or surviving).

I have never owned Naim equipment, but have heard some in showrooms and wasn't enthusiastic about what might be called its lean and hard sound. However, some listeners do like it very much, enough so in fact that Naim has an almost cult following, and many discontinued models are considered classics. There is a good demand for used Naim products and resale value is relatively high.