Help...8-10K to spend on a HT system

[Escobar]

First off, thanks...I appreciate the help experts like you guys (especially woodman) can provide me motivated beginners like myself.

I am moving into a new loft within the next 6-8 months. I want a worthwhile HT system. I am willing to spend 8-10K.

--For TVs, it seems like the way to go is LCD if you have the cash? Should I shoot for the biggest LCD I can get? And whats the deal with LCD projection? And its difference (if any?) to DLP? Is it better to save the money on a LCD projection or DLP TV and be able to go bigger than I could with a sharper, but smaller and more expensive LCD?

Whats the advice here...which technology do I go with? And whats that settled, what specific models do I can look into?

--Now I jump into "everything else." I know this is where you laugh cause I get so broad...but what would YOU do? Keep in mind I want high end. What is involved here? What are the best brands to go with? I've heard from a friend good things about ROTEL? I got to worry about a receiver, speakers, amps? pre amps? processor? wiring? installation, subs, and what else? I also want to get some turntables and a great mixer later on (not included in budget) so I have to keep that in mind when I choose what speakers I'm getting?

So basically, yeah, I got 8-10K to spend on home entertainment to make my new place nice. HELP?

Again, greatly appreciated and hope to hear feedback

[AVMASTER]

answer this question first;
describe the room ( lots of details please) you plan to have your theater in

[Bryan]

Is that $8 - $10K including or excluding the tv? What size room will this system be going in? High end can be a wonderful thing but the gear has to be able to fit and sound good in the room. Perhaps you should re-allocate $500 - $1K of your budget to room treatments.

To me, the very definition of HT is implicit of the impact of bass. The stomp of the T-Rex, the opening 10 minutes of Toy Story 2, the cannon fire in Master and Commander, and the numerous battle scenes in Lord of the Rings. Depending upon your cubic footage in the room plus any openings into other rooms this will determine how much you will need to dedicate to the subwoofer(s). The price range could be anything from $450 - $1,500 or more.

For a receiver/amp/preamp, you desire something with a phono input or you will have to puchase a phono preamp. If you do not wish to buy that extra piece of gear, anything without a phono input you can rule out. Is THX or THX ULTRA2 important to you? If the whole system isn't THX certified you need not worry about it.

Speakers. Major expense here. Are you looking at 5.1? 6.1? 7.1? This can be dictated by your room size. For example, if you have a smaller room you may not have the space for two additional speakers. If you have a larger one bigger speakers may be needed. What size speakers do you want? Do you wish to purchase online or would you prefer a local dealer? Do you prefer tower speakers or bookshelf ones? Ribbons, electrostats, or regular speakers?

[woodman]

First off, thanks...I appreciate the help experts like you guys (especially woodman) can provide me motivated beginners like myself.

Thanks for the appreciation and "vote of confidence"



I am moving into a new loft within the next 6-8 months. I want a worthwhile HT system. I am willing to spend 8-10K.

--For TVs, it seems like the way to go is LCD if you have the cash? Should I shoot for the biggest LCD I can get? And whats the deal with LCD projection? And its difference (if any?) to DLP? Is it better to save the money on a LCD projection or DLP TV and be able to go bigger than I could with a sharper, but smaller and more expensive LCD?

Whats the advice here...which technology do I go with? And whats that settled, what specific models do I can look into?


An LCD front projector is what I recommend - not a direct-view LCD panel (they're far too expensive for what you get). I assume that your "loft" will have adequate control over ambient light will it not? A front projector will give you every bit as sharp a picture as a smaller direct-view LCD display. The projector will give you a MUCH larger image - as large as you (and the dimensions of your room and your viewing distance) will allow for. A DLP projector is another alternative, although some people are bothered by what is known as "rainbow" artifacts that are the result of the spinning color wheel that is used with DLP displays. LCD displays do not use such a thing, so unless you know for a fact that you're not bothered by the "rainbow" effect, an LCD projector is a safer bet. As for a particular model - the new Sanyo Z2 will give you the best value ... the best combination of performance vs. price. It can be had for less than $2K. A good screen can be had for a few hundred (or less). This will give you a major part of your home theater for little more than $2K - leaving you with a lot of breathing room for the audio portion of your theater.



--Now I jump into "everything else." I know this is where you laugh cause I get so broad...but what would YOU do? Keep in mind I want high end. What is involved here? What are the best brands to go with? I've heard from a friend good things about ROTEL? I got to worry about a receiver, speakers, amps? pre amps? processor? wiring? installation, subs, and what else? I also want to get some turntables and a great mixer later on (not included in budget) so I have to keep that in mind when I choose what speakers I'm getting?

So basically, yeah, I got 8-10K to spend on home entertainment to make my new place nice. HELP?

I'm not laughing ... at least not until I read some inane comments, suggestions, etc. from some of my erstwhile colleagues here.

My recommend: budget around $1K for a good receiver, such as the Yamaha RX-V2400, or if you want to go even higher-end, the RX-Z1 for around $2K. That is all you'll need in the way of electronics to produce the sound for your theater. No other amplifiers, processors, etc. I recommend Yamaha over Rotel for reliability and "support" - without giving up anything in sound quality - no matter what some others say on the matter. You'll no doubt get "advice" from others saying that Brand X or Brand Z "sounds" waaaaay better than Yamaha ... these people simply don't know anything about audio. They're merely repeating misdirected opinions that they've "heard" somewhere and that have no basis in fact. I'm a musician as well as an electronic engineer/tech, so if Yamaha was actually lacking in "musicality", I would sure as hell be one to notice it. They don't lack a thing! So far, you've now spent only $3K to perhaps $4K with only the speakers and a DVD player yet to go. Good DVD players are now available for "peanuts" - even with SACD and DVD-Audio capabilities, so this is not a significant budgetary consideration. As to the speakers, that is a very subjective matter indeed. You'll just have to go and listen (to a lot of them) and make your own choice, bearing in mind that your ATTITUDE (how much stock you place in what others have to say about speakers) plays a huge part in the decision process! Just be aware that the "point of diminishing returns" takes place in loudspeakers just the same as it does in all other electronic products, and you don't have to spend thousands of dollars on them in order to have "good sound" as some people will try to get you to believe!

Hope this is the help that you were looking for

[Escobar]

Thanks for the help thus far...you don't know how much I appreciate it.
Here's some additional info on my place...

I am actually developing these loft units myself...The total square footage of the bottom floor is 40' by 20' ...coming out to about 800sq ft. Subtract kitchen and misc space...and I'm looking at about 500 sq ft of space and 16' high ceilings. The second floor is an actual "half" floor that opens up to the first floor area where the HT system will be. Lighting will not be a problem at all.

Now, a few other questions and replies...

1) woodman you're amazing...i hope you continue to help. (along w/ every1 else)
2) let me clarify a few things...i'm looking right now at 60" rear projection lcd or dlp tvs. Other than saving space and bigger screen size on the front projection lcd or dlp...what are the advantages? What mechanism would I use to setup the projector and for how much? and finally, how does the new LCOS technology that I hear is coming out come into play? In other words, what would you get...A) LCD rear, B) DLP rear, C)LCD front, D) DLP front, or E) LCOS??
3) So it looks like I'm gonna have around 5-6K for speakers...what would YOU DO if you were me and had to choose?

can't wait to gain more wisdom...if you need to know anything else to help me out better please ask it

[stevos2005]

Good luck with your system. I'm actually in a somewhat similar boat to you with the TV issue. Regarding sound quality, if you want hi-fi, I'm guessing new music formats, such as SACD and DVD-Audio might be important to you. In any case, I'd look for a well-built DVD-player with high quality (Burr-Brown, etc.) 24-bit DAC's such as the Denon's DVD-2200, 2900, or 5900.

I agree that Yamaha's are excellent, and I'm also an engineer and amateur musician. For receivers in the $1000 price range, I personally feel that Yamaha's are the best, with Denon's coming in right behind. I'll second the RX-V2400.

With speakers, you'll just have to go out and listen yourself. If you're into music, then IMHO, I'd say go with B&W (www.bwspeakers.com) all the way! I just got my B&Ws the other day, and I've never heard anything remotely that good....ever! And yes, that is with a Yamaha receiver. With $5-6k, I'd recommend the 700 series. You can easily get an excellent hi-fi speaker system for that price. Since your room is on the larger side, I'd go with one of the larger subs in the series.

Hope that helps. Good luck!

[Escobar]

Tell me what you think of this breakdown guys (espcially woodman)

-Front Speakers: Paradigm Reference series studio 60s
-Rear Speakers: Paradigm Reference series studio 20s
+maybe 2 more rear paradigm 20s for surround speakers
-Center Speaker: Paradigm Reference Studio CC470 or CC570

-Sub: Either a Velodyn Digital drive series (biggest budget allows) or a Paradigm servo 15

Either:
a Receiver: Yamaha rxv2400 for 1k or the higher end one for 2k woodman recommended
or
Processor: Rotel RSP 1068 (7.1)
AMP: Rotel R+B1075 (processor + amp option would cost same 2k as high end yamaha - woodman help?)

TV: I guess the best and biggest rear projection DLP or LCD? It would be difficult to watch a front projection during the day I've been told? And I would need a long component cable possibly later to hook up the projector to the equip unless the equip was installed where the projector was? or again, should I wait for that new technology (LCOS?)

So I'm progressing along here and learning more. Lemme know what needs improvement.

[Escobar]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS

[woodman]

Escobar:
You need more help, and I'll be glad to give you some - but it's late - I'm tired - I'll get back with you tomorrow.

[Escobar]

thanks, can't wait...i've offically found a new addictive hobby here

[magictooth]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS
Try to keep an open mind and go and listen to more than those two brands of speakers before you buy. They'll probably be the biggest influence on the type and quality of your system - audio wise at least. There are lots of people on this board who like Dynaudio, Von Schweikert, and Boston Acoustics. You can try some other Brit designs such as Audio Note or Tannoy as well.

If you get separate preamp/amp then you won't need the Yamaha receiver and vice versa. Which is better is a matter of personal preference. My original receiver was a fairly decent one, but I upgraded to a separate amp while keeping the preamp stage of my receiver. As long as your new receiver has pre outs you'll be able to do this as well in the future. The advantage of this is that you'll be able to have more power in the future if you want it. I didn't think that I'd need it, but it's nice to be able to play that intro THX segment at a high level and not have your receiver auto shutdown because too much power is required.

Don't forget to budget for a subwoofer. This'll be one of the more important parts of your HT system especially in an open room.

Regarding your TV, I've seen LCOS and it is quite good. The only advantage it has over DLP these days is that there are guaranteed no rainbows and that it is generally brighter. You'd have to go and see some different projectors to be able to determine if you can see problems such as rainbows or in the case of LCD if you can see screendoor effect. As an example, I don't have a problem with rainbows, but for many entry level LCD projectors, I see screendoor much more easily than most people.

You would be well advised to get a front projector over an LCD panel or RPTV if your room will allow it. This means ambient light control, but also consider that if you're going with a smaller screen size such as 60-80", you may still be able to watch the projector because the screen is 2-3 times smaller than the 100" standard. What this means is that you'll be getting 2-3 times more light onto the screen if you go with the smaller screen size.

One last tip. If you're not averse to a bit of risk, you should try and see if you can some or all of your audio equipment used. If I could start all over again, I'd buy used.

[Bryan]

I am actually developing these loft units myself...The total square footage of the bottom floor is 40' by 20' ...coming out to about 800sq ft. Subtract kitchen and misc space...and I'm looking at about 500 sq ft of space and 16' high ceilings. The second floor is an actual "half" floor that opens up to the first floor area where the HT system will be. Lighting will not be a problem at all.

How much actual open area will be connected to the HT? Square footage isn't the problem. For subs, you go by cubic footage. That 40' x 20' x 16' total comes out to 12,800 cubic feet. Even if you go with 20' x 20' x 16' you are still at 6,400 cubic feet. To put this in perspective, you could spend $3K on subs and not have enough for the cubic footage. The problem is the ceiling height. If you can get that down or move this system into a smaller room your costs will go down significantly. Put another way, my HT room is 11' x 16' x 8' or 1,408. It is relatively small room. However, the room opens up into the dining room, kitchen, and a long hallway consequently adding 1,600+ more cubic feet for a total of over 3,000 cubic feet. I need much more sub for the room. You could have two or more SVS B4-Plus subwoofers in your room and they may not be able to handle it. If you love the impact of bass the cubic footage will be a problem. If you do not care nearly as much, look into a couple SVS PB2-Plus subs and some bass shakers. Either way, most subs will bottom out if you push them in a room the size of yours.

[woodman]

I'm also hearing really good things about B&W so I may consider them.
From what you guys are saying, sounds like I have to go listen to the Paradigms vs. the B &Ws.

Also, I"m hearing I'm fine with a 1-2k RECEIVER
I'm also hearing I'm better off with "specializing" and getting separate processor and amp (and losing out on the precious fm/am!) which is "better" for watching movies and/or listening to music? true?

How accurate is the "separation for specialization" theory?

Also, I have closer to 400 sq ft, not 500 (maybe even slightly less)

Is LCOS something to look into for the tv? as of now, I'm hearing different things on front projection vs rear projection vs LCOS


Let's go around again, Escobar ... I'm doing my best to help you avoid spending dollars needlessly, and maximizing your enjoyment of what "Home Theater" has to offer.

First off, your video display. You said in an earlier post that ambient room light will not be a problem ... then, in a later post you said that watching a front projector in the daytime might be difficult. Let's get this matter cleared up first. Watching any TV set - no matter of what type in a fairly bright environment (whether from sunlight or artificial light) will be difficult at best. This is why people visiting retail stores come away with the opinion that ALL of the sets looked crappy!

If you can darken the room to where it's not bright, then you can get very enjoyable images from a front projector - period. There are many advantages to a front projector besides a larger image ... trust me. RPTVs with as large a picture as you might want are very, very, very heavy - ballbusters for even two men to deal with. Most problems that might arise with an HDTV set of any sort today, will probably require a trip to a service facility to be dealt with. This means two men to come to your home to pick it up, and two men to deliver it back to you after it's serviced. With a front projector, if and when a problem should come up, you merely disconnect it - tuck it under your arm (they only weigh about 7-8 lbs.) and carry it into the service shop yourself - saving not only considerable expense, but also down-time for YOU to be without the set. In addition, a front projector eliminates much of the manufacturing expense of an RPTV, so the initial cost is FAR less. An LCD or DLP projector can be had for less than $2K, while an equivalent RPTV (using those same technologies) will run you at least double that amount! 'Nuff said? Also, regarding LCoS ... I'm very suspicious of the viability of same. Toshiba introduced two models (RPTVs) using that chip - they performed brilliantly, but were quietly discontinued for some reason! I've not been able to find out why. Also, JVC showed an RPTV using that technology at the 2000 CES show - promising delivery in a few months, but it NEVER did make it into the marketplace! This makes me wonder why, also.

Now to audio: goddammit, I cannot fathom all of the (well-intentioned, I'm sure) individuals that keep on insisting that separates perform waaaaaaay better than any receiver. They quite simply don't know whatinthehell they're talking about. If we compare some good "separates" with an entry-level receiver, then they might have a point. But, I don't recommend such receivers to anybody. I think that the receiver is FAR too important in the overall scheme of things to scrimp on it in order to have more to spend on other things (like speakers). Also, people that claim that one brand is vastly better sonically than another are also misguided and flat-out wrong. One other thing ... scratch the Yamaha RX-Z1 off of your list, along with the $2K that it would cost you, since it doesn't have the YPAO feature that is THE most important feature to be introduced in receivers in the last 40 years! Get the RX-V2400 for less than $1K and you'll have everything you need in audio electronics to drive whatever speakers you end up choosing.

As for the speakers, refer to what I said in my post yesterday (June 2nd at 2:20pm). I like Paradigm a lot, but like I said in the earlier post, try to eliminate from your mind what others have to say about them (speakers). Remember the point about dimishing returns. It surfaces with speakers at a much lower price point than most people believe. You'll get all sorts of "advice" stating that model XXX simply "blows away" the competition (at a hefty price, I might add). Throw this sort of nonsense directly into the trash can where it belongs. If I've learned anything at all in my 65 years of experience with audio, it's that there's simply no such thing as "blows away", "night and day differences", "HUGE differences", etc. They simply don't exist!

In closing, don't let anyone talk you into spending vast quantities of cash on WIRE. They're also dealing in snake-oil, whether they know it or not.

[topspeed]

For the life of me, I can't figure out why SirTT hasn't chimed in as this is pretty much what he does for a living...

For video, I'd do pretty much whatever Woodman says.

For audio, here's my 2 cents:
Choose your speakers first. I'd go with a 5.1 set of whatever speakers sound best to you. There is a difference in speakers, make no bones about it. While "night and day" differences are understandably debateable, especially when comparing Paradigm Studio's vs. B&W 700's, one could make a fairly convincing argument that Klipsch vs. Magnepan's are indeed "night and day". No one can tell you what's best because we don't have your ears. Therefore, you need to go out and listen to a LOT of different speakers as well as different types of speakers. Expose yourself to planers and 'stats, hybrids, dynamics that are ported and sealed, etc. Decide for yourself what type of sound you like best and make the educated decision. You have a veritable cornucopia of choices.

Your speaker choice will determine whether or not you can get away with a receiver or need to go separates. For example, say the speakers you end up preferring are dynamic's with 8 ohm nominal loads (and don't drop below 5 ohms) with a 90db sensitivity. Well, you very well might get away with a receiver, depending on how seriously you take this. Now then, say you prefer planers such as the Maggies. These honey's present a 4 ohm nominal load with reputation for dropping into the 1's or 2's. Could the Yammie handle two of them at moderate levels? Probably. Now let's add 3 more to complete your 5.1, all at 4 ohms nominal, and throw on a demanding action flick begging to be played LOUD with huge transient swings. That receiver's protection circuitry will be popping faster than you can say "overload". It just doesn't have the power supply to keep up with challenging speakers like these. Whether or not separates sound better than receivers isn't nearly as important as to which one will drive your chosen speakers. This is why you should pick your speakers first.

You're also going to need a source and I'd definitely go the universal player route. It saves space and allows you the most options. The Yammie and Denon units offer tremendous bang for the buck although there are certainly other options including everyone from Toshiba to Linn or Krell.

I wholeheartedly agree with Woodman that instead trying to use up all $10k, you should try to see how little you can spend and still be happy. Mario Andretti once noted the key to winning a race was "to go as slow as possible and still win the race." Think about that...

Good luck.

[Bryan]

Both woodman and topspeed make excellent points and I am in agreement with them for the most part. Audition speakers to find out what sound you enjoy, be it planer, electrostats, horn, etc. If you like Dynaudio speakers odds are you will like either nOrh or Rocket. Keep the factory direct options available though see if someone who lives locally will let you audition them.

IMO, the price breakdown will likely be as follows:

1. Subwoofer(s). This will eat up your budget. Granted, it is one piece though an important one. Your needs here are dictated by total cubic footage of your HT room plus cubic footage into all other openings from the HT room. Once this part is settled move onto:

2. Video. Could be a projector or tv. Go with what the others have recommended. This will be your second major expense.

3. Speakers. Go with what you like that fits within your budget. Online ones can save you money but try and audition them if you can.

4. Receiver. You do not need the top of the line. Make sure to get one with preouts. If the speakers do not have enough power you can always add amps.

5. DVD player. Buy quality. Here you will also want to buy better cables to connect the dvd player to the tv/projector and for the digital connection between the receiver and dvd player.

[Beckman]

Plasma screen TV's are suppose to drop in price to 1/3 there current cost becauses of advances in the semiconductors used (see rumors forum). I would look at spending a lot on the audio side of things, then going cheap on the TV side. With more and more people switching from regular to high def, the prices on all high def equipment are going to drop drasticly in the next 3 years(I think). Then again, you only live.

[Escobar]

so i've spent as much free time as i could the last couple days (including this fri night) researching everything everyone has said, listening to speakers, and talking to salespeople.

wanted to drop a few ideas and pose some questions...

1) TV: Sounds like front projection is the way to go if i am smart about the lighting...

woodman had originally posted going with a Sanyo 72 for less than 2k.

I checked out one place today that had:
the sony cineza vpl-hs20 for $3500,
the sharp xv-z10000 for 9k,
and higher model of that sharp for around 12k!

Magnolia Hi Fi offered me
the infous screenplay 4800 for $1500
the infocus screenplay 7200 for 4k (no 720p or 1080p capability)
and a 3rd infocus for 7k

woodman: what do you think of the others I came up with? is the sanyo still your #1? or do you have any others i might also wanna check out? and finally on the tvs, will CLOS be on available on FRONT projections? By the way, didn't see any rainbow effect on on dlp or screendoor on LCD projection.

2) Speakers: I listened to the Paradigm Studio 60s & 100s and came away NOT impressed considering their price tag. Keep in mid I will be listening to a lot of bass heavy tracks. I then went over to Magnolia HIFI and listened to the same cds on the Definitive Technology 7002, 7004s, and 7006s. The lower 2 models sounded MUCH better than the Paradigms and went for 1700 and 2300 a pair respectively. Anyone have anything to say about these? I am curious as to what I will think of the B&Ws when I hear them. Anyone recommed good fronts for bass heavy tracks?

3) Sub: I'm hearing everywhere to go mailorder from SVS. I got saw subs at paradigm and magnolia for well over 3k. the svs pb2-isds everyone is recommending is significantly cheaper. you guys think this will work given my 400 sq area and 16 ft high ceilings? or should i consider the higher svs models like the pb2 ultra and b4 plus for much more? the guy at magnolia recommended the def tech supercube reference that he sounded nice while i was listening to some cds.

4) Receiver: Still undecided on the Yamaha rxv2400 for 1k or going separates with Rotel RSP 1068 processor and Rotel R+B1075 amp for a 2k total. Will the Yamaha have enough of a power supply to power the Def Tech speakers or the B&W 700s I might go with as of now? Its a 1k difference and I'm getting mixed responses. And the Rotels LOOK so damn nice!

So that's where I stand now. Little more knowledge and familiarity...still a lot of work to go. need to research good center and rear speakers. I've heard pairing the rotel separates with B&W speakrs works really well so if the fronts sound good I may go B&W all the way around with like a 92 inch front projection and the rotel separates. Those def techs did sound pretty good at Magnolia though. again, I love feedback so keep helping please!

[Escobar]

also read 3 good reviews on the Sanyo PLV-Z1 front projector
price looks good too

anyone know best bang for its buck front projector to go with a 10k budget?
ideally would like to keep total cost in this area of the HT system under 3k
keep in mind im looking at the def techs, b&w, and AV123 Rockets for speakers
add 1-2k for receiver or rotel processor/amp
and 1-2k best svs sub budget allows
dvd player, wiring, misc

[topspeed]

2) Speakers: I listened to the Paradigm Studio 60s & 100s and came away NOT impressed considering their price tag. Keep in mid I will be listening to a lot of bass heavy tracks. I then went over to Magnolia HIFI and listened to the same cds on the Definitive Technology 7002, 7004s, and 7006s. The lower 2 models sounded MUCH better than the Paradigms and went for 1700 and 2300 a pair respectively. Anyone have anything to say about these? I am curious as to what I will think of the B&Ws when I hear them. Anyone recommed good fronts for bass heavy tracks?If you like a lot of bass, turn your sub up. B&W's are not known for catering to bassaholics and if that's your preference, you'd be better served by the DefTech's. If this system is to be used primarily for HT purposes, not critical listening, I'd probably lean toward the DefTechs as their built-in powered subs will help energize your 16' ceiling room. If you're more into music, I'd go with the B&W's (although they are very good for HT as well) as they exhibit far more control, accuracy, and tonal balance. Of course, this is just my opinion and you know what they say about that. Keep in mind the DefTech's are bi-polar and will need to be well out from the back wall. If you room isn't conducive to this layout, go elsewhere.


3) Sub: I'm hearing everywhere to go mailorder from SVS. I got saw subs at paradigm and magnolia for well over 3k. the svs pb2-isds everyone is recommending is significantly cheaper. you guys think this will work given my 400 sq area and 16 ft high ceilings? or should i consider the higher svs models like the pb2 ultra and b4 plus for much more? the guy at magnolia recommended the def tech supercube reference that he sounded nice while i was listening to some cds. DT is well known for its subs and for good reason. The SuperCubes are one of the best subs you can buy imo. Definitely worth considering, even if you go with different speakers for the rest of the rig.

4) Receiver: Still undecided on the Yamaha rxv2400 for 1k or going separates with Rotel RSP 1068 processor and Rotel R+B1075 amp for a 2k total. Will the Yamaha have enough of a power supply to power the Def Tech speakers or the B&W 700s I might go with as of now? Its a 1k difference and I'm getting mixed responses. And the Rotels LOOK so damn nice! Again, it will depend on what speaker you buy. While the Yammie will drive a full 700 system, the Rotel will do it better because of the impedence curve the B&W's present. What does "better" mean? More bass, more headroom, and far less strain at high levels. If you go DT's, the Yammie will be fine as they aren't nearly as tricky.


I've heard pairing the rotel separates with B&W speakrs works really well so if the fronts sound good I may go B&W all the way around with like a 92 inch front projection and the rotel separates. Those def techs did sound pretty good at Magnolia though. again, I love feedback so keep helping please! Rotel and B&W share the same distributor, that's why you always see them paired in the same stores. B&W's do pair nicely with a lot of other amps however, so keep your options open. Rotel is very good tho.

Finally, just make sure you buy whatever sounds best to you. It's you're money and your ears.

Good luck and buy what moves you.

[Escobar]

speakers: topspeed: yeah, I am definitely curious as to what I will think of the B&Ws compared to the Def Techs. The DefTechs did sound nice and seemed to cater to what I want to do with drum & bass tracks as well as movies

Sounds like you have good things to say about the def tech sub as well. I really am curious though how the SVS subs are. Everyone says they are good. They're mail order only. And they are set at a great price. Any input on the SVS subs specifically. People are telling me they "blow away" the servo 15 and velodyne digital drive series.

Also, I guess woodman was again right on going with the Yamaha...especially if I go with the Def Tech speakers. Some were saying I may have power supply issues there but I guess not? Also, I gotta start thinking about center and rear speakers too.

I'll look for responses. thanks.

[nick4433]

Escobar, sorry to chime in so late but I think I'll go ahead and add my 2 cents anyway. Woody will give you excellent recommendations on Video but I think Woody is somehow convinced that Yamahas are the best receivers out there and that's it. I have tremendous respect for Woodman's opinions and his knowledge in this field but I think you should not be one dimensional in your approach to Audio either.
In putting a good audio system together you have to determine if it's going to be for music or HT. Now don't get me wrong but seperates do sound better than receivers and I am not talking about the flagship receivers here. In my various experiences in testing different audio equipment, I found on many movies for both DD and DTS that most receivers give up on power on some very demanding scenes.
My advise to you would be to listen to as many brands as possible and make a decision based upon your liking of a particular brand. Woody is right when he says that sonically receivers are not that different but sound is very subjective and you should feel that yourself. There are many audio fans out there who will swear that Denons are warm and Marantz are warmer, etc. and there might be some truth to that as it is all subjective.
Also my advise to you would be not to jump into seperates right away. Buy a good receiver like the Yammy 2400, Denon 3805 or one of the Pioneer Elites based upon your listening. If you feel the need for more power, add an external amp. In a couple of years if your taste outgrows the receivers then go for a prepro.
The 2400 and the 3805 will both make excellent prepros no doubt. If I had enough room for 6.1 then either of those two would be in my setup in a heartbeat. As far as speakers go, if your main purpose is HT then go and try the Klipsch's out. They offer a trmendous bang for the buck for HT and will make any receiver feel powerful as they are extremely efficient.
I have found PSBs to be very musical and good for HT too at the same time.
I personally have the Wharfedale Emerald 97s and am extremely happy with them for both music and HT.
Hope that helped.

[Escobar]

The Rocket 550 Ultra HTs you listed are on the site for 1800 EACH...and the Def Techs I listened to at Magnolia were 1700 and 2300 for a PAIR...are the av123 550 ultra hts really WORTH twice as much even if i do end up liking the sound?

I ask this b/c my next question is regarding the LCOS front projection. Im hoping if I save the money by going with the Def Techs for 1700 I can then shoot for a LCOS front projection...? How much will LCOS front projection cost me and is it worth it? And how much more is it if I don't go with a "fixed screen" and get something nifty that electronically rolls out and in?

As far as the sub, I'm pretty much set on getting the PB2-ISD for a little less than 1K. Unless something significantly changes in the next 6 months it sounds like thats the best bang for its buck.

My HT system will be 50% movies and 50% music (mostly thru djing with turntables)...any advice on best bang for its buck quality center channel and rear speakers? And finally, just so I'm sure, we're all agreeing that the Yamaha wont have enough power to REALLY handle some nice Def Techs? People are saying I can't go wrong with the Rotels I listed before...but...?

Also, as much knowledge as I can get from you experts on front projection models I should look into would be APPRECIATED. Thanks for everything so far!

[agtpunx40]

get three identical speakers up front, putting one behind a decent acoustically transparent screen. This gives you a big advantage of having identical, not just voice matched, speakers across the front, although I do know that room acoustics will have a significant affect this is a closer to ideal situation, and you'll have everything at the same hight across the front, which will make for more seamless moves from one side of the screen to the other. I would also save some money for some diy room treatments which can be VERY helpful and pretty cheap.

[magictooth]

also read 3 good reviews on the Sanyo PLV-Z1 front projector
price looks good too

anyone know best bang for its buck front projector to go with a 10k budget?
ideally would like to keep total cost in this area of the HT system under 3k
keep in mind im looking at the def techs, b&w, and AV123 Rockets for speakers
add 1-2k for receiver or rotel processor/amp
and 1-2k best svs sub budget allows
dvd player, wiring, misc
Saw one of your above posts and it says that the Infocus 7200 isn't 720p or 1080i compatible, but the projector is indeed capable of playing these formats. For $4K, the 7200 would be a very good deal on last year's model. I've seen it in action, and it is very good. I think the new model 7205 is the one going for $7K.

LCOS projectors like the JVC DLA-SX21U start I think in the $8k+ range. It is still a new technology and hence it is much more expensive than DLP or LCD.

I said it before, and I'll say it again that you shouldn't be in such a huge hurry to purchase your audio equipment. Spend some time and go and listen to a bunch of different speakers. These will make the biggest difference in your system.

I disagree to a certain extent with Woodman's suggestion that there's no reason to go with separates over the RX-2400. If you want to listen to some movies or music at high volumes, then a separate amp is going to be of great benefit. My receiver is rated nominally at 100x6, but there's no way that it can put out 600W of power at once. With a separate amp, you will get 100 or 200 watts of power to each channel. In addition to that the capacitors of many well made amps are significantly better than those in your typical receiver. Where this helps is in the large dynamic swings that you can get in many movies these days. Without sufficient power and reserves, you'll either reset or blow out your receiver or you won't get the full effect that the movie was intending to present.

[topspeed]

speakers: topspeed: yeah, I am definitely curious as to what I will think of the B&Ws compared to the Def Techs. The DefTechs did sound nice and seemed to cater to what I want to do with drum & bass tracks as well as movies The B&W's and DT's don't sound anything alike so if you like one, chances are you won't like the other. I've been a drummer for over 30 years and thought the B&W's did the best job of reproducing drums, cymbals, and percussion. Of course, I'm talking about "real" drums which are a lot different sonically from the electronic/processed drums used in trance/rave/hip-hop. Buy whichever you prefer.


Sounds like you have good things to say about the def tech sub as well. I really am curious though how the SVS subs are. Everyone says they are good. They're mail order only. And they are set at a great price. Any input on the SVS subs specifically. People are telling me they "blow away" the servo 15 and velodyne digital drive series. Never heard SVS but I've read the same things you have, although that's not much help is it?


Also, I guess woodman was again right on going with the Yamaha...especially if I go with the Def Tech speakers. Some were saying I may have power supply issues there but I guess not? Also, I gotta start thinking about center and rear speakers too. I didn't say go w/ Yammie. The DefTech's are a much easier speaker to drive than the B&W's so they are better suited to use with a receiver...any receiver. Like others have said, look at all of them and pick whichever has the features, reliability, and sound that you like. YPAO is very cool, but Pioneer and Denon also have a self calibration/equalization feature.

I'll cut to the chase: I like separates. In my opinion they don't suffer the compromises inherent in every receiver. Think about it, a receiver has to pack a tuner, preamp, amp, DAC's, and 100's of utterly useless DSP modes into one relatively marketable chassis at a relatively marketable price point. They are going to cut corners somewhere and it's usually in the amp section. Now of course, this flies in the face of all reason because what is the most important part of music reproduction? Is it the DSP mode that transmogrifies music into some unintelligible gooblygook that resembles fish farting at the bottom of the Marianas Trench? Or, could it be POWER? Pop the hood on most any receiver, what kind of caps will you see? Blackgates? Hovland? How 'bout the power supply? Is it discrete for each and every channel? In your dreams. Take a look at the transformer. See what I mean? Separates simply offer you the ability to custom tailor your system to your needs without compromise.

HOWEVER, it all comes back to how seriously you take this hobby. If during your own auditions you can't hear a difference, then by all mean buy whatever is cheaper.

As mentioned LCOS is new and therefore expensive. Toshiba halted production of their LCOS units due to supplier problems (QC was less than desireable) and from what I understand, there are currently only a handful of these suppliers. They are hailed as the next "big thing" but personally, I'd wait until the bugs get worked out.

Hope this helps

[Bryan]

400 square feet (assuming a room that is 20' x 20') multiplied by a 16' ceiling gives you 6,400 cubic feet. The SVS PB2-ISD will not handle that room size. I own a 20-39CSi that uses the same driver as the PB2-ISD. While excellent it will bottom out in your room. At a minimum you need dual PB2-Plus subs for $2,600 delivered. Even that may not be enough. I would ask either Tom or Ron at SVS and see what they recommend. Another thing you may wish to consider would be four Rocket UFW-10s for around $2,200 delivered. I am still doubtful those would be enough but it may save you some money. The PB2-ISD may be the best bang for the buck but what good will it do you if it can't fill the room with bass without bottoming out?

As a point of clarification, the Rocket 550 Ultra HT includes two pairs of 550s and a RSC200 center. You can add on a pair of RSS300s for $599. It still comes at a lesser cost than the Def Techs. I would add the risers for the 550s though they go for $99 a pair plus shipping. For comparison, the Rocket Signature RS750s go for $1,499 a pair and would be much more comparible to the Def Techs.

[Escobar]

yeah, that definitely helps (to both above posts)

i'll take it all into consideration

for the records, the def techs did sound a hell of a lot better to me than the paradigm studio 60s and 100s

[Fallen Kell]

Also, if you are looking at Rockets, there is a new speaker comming out (from sounds of things, it should be shipping by the end of the month to pre-orders). The new speaker is the RS1000 which has an 8 inch side fireing powered woofer (300 watts I believe) built into the speakers. This will really help out in the bass department in the room you have. Its a little pricy compaired to what you have been looking at so far, at $2600 for a pair. But again, it will also cut out some of the bass problems you are going to have especially since you appear to like bass heavy speakers to begin with.

I personally just bought a pair of RS750's and so far, I am loving them (got them on a deal for $999 because they were review samples sent out for review/photos for magazines, but mine appear to have been used for photos only since they are not broken in yet at all). I too would recommend the risers. I bought them without them and then compaired what they would sound like if they were 6-8 inches higher and to me it made a difference (I'm a tall guy, so it brought the tweeter in better alignment with my ears when I am sitting).

Oh and the RSC200 center is HUGE! This isn't some tiny center that you see at different audio stores. But it translates into lots of room for it to make a really decent sound. Try and find someone in your area who wouldn't mind doing a demo for you. I forget the website, but there is a place setup specifically for contacting people who are willing to give demos with people looking to hear the speakers...

After listening to the ROcket RS750's I have decided to go with them in my 7.1 setup (1 pair RS1000's, 2 pair RS750's, RSC200 center)