Matter of Perspective

[pctower]

I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems.

[WmAx]

I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.Why is the lack of discussion interesting? Or did I misinterprut your statement?


For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowdHow did you deduct this? What do you mean by 'BEst Buy' crowd? Do you mean some average? How did you arrive at this average? Secret e-mail or PM of the majority of audioreview users, polling one-by-one? Is it good or bad to be part of the Best Buy 'crowd'? If so, why?



- over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems
I would wager a few have 'listened' to 'one or more' hi-end ssystems, here, too.... by 'hi-end' I mean 'expensive'. By expensive, I mean $10,000 USD or greater cost. Just a number to throw out to be specific. I pick this number just because I don't know of how else to define hi-end. It can't be performance alone, can it? How do you define low cost systems that sound excellet, or expensive ones that sound lousy, if you define in a way other then an arbitrary number value. How do you decide what sounds good or lousy? Who decides? By status? Who decides the status? Is thier an entity that decides status? Do you have a different defition for 'hi-end'? If so, please elaborate.

-Chris

[thepogue]

i listen to high-end 20K +


i shop at best buy....


is that even legal?


Peace, Pogue

[Tony_Montana]

I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

Well, may be non of AR members live in NY :D

[pctower]

Well, may be non of AR members live in NY :D

Well, apparently they don't live anyplace else within the continental United States either. But for my brief comments, there was no discussion over here in January about CES - which was attended by audiophiles from all over the country.

Face it, without the Sunday inserts in their local paper, these guys would be lost. How else to keep up on the latest and the greatest from Radio Shack, Circuit City and Target. Everyone knows that everything sounds the same - at Walmart that is.

[mtrycraft]

Well, apparently they don't live anyplace else within the continental United States either. But for my brief comments, there was no discussion over here in January about CES - which was attended by audiophiles from all over the country.

Face it, without the Sunday inserts in their local paper, these guys would be lost. How else to keep up on the latest and the greatest from Radio Shack, Circuit City and Target. Everyone knows that everything sounds the same - at Walmart that is.


What is there to discuss about a CES show? How much marketing is used to sell that stuff? What is there to listen at those shows with those rooms? That crowd and noise? That expensive and crowded city? Looks good on TV though :)

[Resident Loser]

...I attended was an invitation-only thingie presented by a high-end speaker outfit(don't remember who)...it was boring, blaring and most of the attendees were obnoxious twits...just imagine an entire show of that sort of thing...

I get my quota of that here and I don't have to drive 40 fun-filled Saturday minutes in LI traffic to arrive...of course public transportation is an alternative, if the extravaganza is held in Manhattan, but since I do that to and from work(green SOB that I am), it ain't high on the "gotta' do" list...

At least here, I can easily come and go as I choose. Only words are exchanged with very little chance for assault charges being filed...besides, over time I seem to have developed an immunity from "upgrade-itis"; in fact quite the opposite is true, but that's another story. In addition, my smart-@$$ audiophile mentality seems to have gone into remission and it is only on rare occasions that the phrases "program material" and "soundstage" leave my lips...

I can listen to a fair amount of stuff at my leisure, if and as it suits me...quite a few high-end dealers within striking distance and in fact did so recently when shopping for a cassette deck...the place I finally made my purchase uses Monster exclusively and no longer sells the more esoteric of the breed...had an interesting conversation with the salesman re: that...

Back to the invite deal, they displayed six or seven models of their wares, all wired up to equipment in portable armored transport racks(over-sized ANVIL cases)...BTW, THEY were using zip cord...

jimHJJ(...and there's always thumbing through TAS @ Barnes and Noble...always good when I can use a laugh!...)

[E-Stat]

What is there to discuss about a CES show?
Exactly. Everything of value in audio has already been developed - and readily available at Best Buy. ;)

rw

[pctower]

What is there to discuss about a CES show? How much marketing is used to sell that stuff? What is there to listen at those shows with those rooms? That crowd and noise? That expensive and crowded city? Looks good on TV though :)

What is there to discuss about a CES show?

Nothing for the Julian Hirsch wannabees. That's exactly my point.

People here have nowhere to go but Best Buy. They look down their noses at AA, CES, Stereophile, etc. Yet (with few exceptions) they would be laughed out of any self-respecting university or lab for their love affair with amateur test protocols published in the largely now-defunct mainstrea/mass-market audio press.

[Resident Loser]

...let all of us mindless miscreants in on the deal...

What earthshaking technology came out at either...and I'm not referring to a 26lb. milled brass turntable platter that takes 20 min. to reach 33.333rpm...the flywheel effect has been well known for quite some time...

"...Nothing for the Julian Hirsch wannabees. That's exactly my point..."

Like laser-etched stainless steel faceplates?, speakers that resemble conch shells?, wires the diameter of the average garden hose?

Only stuff for delusional dreamers...

"...People here have nowhere to go but Best Buy..."

There's always Circuit City...

"...They look down their noses at AA,..."

Well come on, that's a given...

"...CES,..."

Lessee that's the Consumer Electronics Show, right? New covers for your cell-phone, 500 channels of digital satellite TeeVee cr@p, more useless stuff you didn't know you needed until someone told you ya' did...that sorta' thing? Marketing plays no part, eh?

"...Stereophile, etc..."

They and their ilk do seem to perpetuate much mythology as fact...or am I mistaken in that ?

'...Yet (with few exceptions) they would be laughed out of any self-respecting university or lab for their love affair with amateur test protocols published in the largely now-defunct mainstrea/mass-market audio press..."

And you know this to be fact?

And why is there a "...largely now-defunct mainstream/mass-market audio press..."?

Could the answer be that shows you've mentioned promulgated digital sound and HT, subsequently allowing media manufacturers, in part, to sell old wine in new bottles and rendering existing gear obsolete in the guise of "progress"? Generally speaking, HT(cheap) and HE(expensive)...two ends, not much middle ground...the "press" you speak of, seems to have morphed into HT rags because folks were told they could have it all in one neat package...follow the money...

jimHJJ(...or so it seems...)

[JSE]

[b].People here have nowhere to go but Best Buy. They look down their noses at AA, CES, Stereophile, etc.


Ah yes, "we" are obviously the ones looking down our noses. LOL! RMAO! :D

Anyway, off to the country club to meat Biff and Buffy! Chow!

JSE

[pctower]

...let all of us mindless miscreants in on the deal...

What earthshaking technology came out at either...and I'm not referring to a 26lb. milled brass turntable platter that takes 20 min. to reach 33.333rpm...the flywheel effect has been well known for quite some time...

"...Nothing for the Julian Hirsch wannabees. That's exactly my point..."

Like laser-etched stainless steel faceplates?, speakers that resemble conch shells?, wires the diameter of the average garden hose?

Only stuff for delusional dreamers...

"...People here have nowhere to go but Best Buy..."

There's always Circuit City...

"...They look down their noses at AA,..."

Well come on, that's a given...

"...CES,..."

Lessee that's the Consumer Electronics Show, right? New covers for your cell-phone, 500 channels of digital satellite TeeVee cr@p, more useless stuff you didn't know you needed until someone told you ya' did...that sorta' thing? Marketing plays no part, eh?

"...Stereophile, etc..."

They and their ilk do seem to perpetuate much mythology as fact...or am I mistaken in that ?

'...Yet (with few exceptions) they would be laughed out of any self-respecting university or lab for their love affair with amateur test protocols published in the largely now-defunct mainstrea/mass-market audio press..."

And you know this to be fact?

And why is there a "...largely now-defunct mainstream/mass-market audio press..."?

Could the answer be that shows you've mentioned promulgated digital sound and HT, subsequently allowing media manufacturers, in part, to sell old wine in new bottles and rendering existing gear obsolete in the guise of "progress"? Generally speaking, HT(cheap) and HE(expensive)...two ends, not much middle ground...the "press" you speak of, seems to have morphed into HT rags because folks were told they could have it all in one neat package...follow the money...

jimHJJ(...or so it seems...)

As a social critic you have no equal.
Yet the foibles you unveil permeate all human endeavors.

The foolish that you see has unending sequels.
The great dreams and whims of the past are now but distant cadavers.

I did not invent human beings, nor would I even choose to if I were God's equal.
So don't blame me for all of man's silliness and pompadours.

[mtrycraft]

What is there to discuss about a CES show?

Nothing for the Julian Hirsch wannabees. That's exactly my point.

People here have nowhere to go but Best Buy. They look down their noses at AA, CES, Stereophile, etc. Yet (with few exceptions) they would be laughed out of any self-respecting university or lab for their love affair with amateur test protocols published in the largely now-defunct mainstrea/mass-market audio press.


Ah, yes, those tests are defunct along witht he mags, LOL.
Stereopile is king. King of hyperbole.
AA has its place as does John Edwards, Sylvia Brown, etc, entertaining.

Oh, yes, the Miami U paper is just sooo wonderful and scientific, isn't it, using 70% confidence level. You think that is not a joke?

[skeptic]

There you go putting down the AR community again but you keep coming back here again and again while over there, they periodically slap you down and you go off in a snit. What gives with you PC? Why do you do the same thing over and over again? Don't you ever learn to stop insulting people? If you want to start a thread about the New York high end audio show, why don't you just say so?

The trouble with high end audio today as I see it is that this is an industry exploiting a stagnant technology that isn't going anywhere and hasn't really done much new for decades. You can tweak the same tired old products ad nauseum but the essence of them isn't going to change much. If automobile tires didn't wear out, how would you get someone to trade up to a new set that gave three percent better handling when the natural reaction is "ho hum, who cares." The answer is hype, endless mindblowing hype and lots and lots of hard sell and soft sell advertising. Invent problems that don't exist or amount to a hill of beans if you can and then shout from the rooftops that you're the first and only one who fixed it. If you can't do that, then imbue your products with some special attributes which are beyond measurements and get people to give testimonials. It's best if you can start a cult following. The more expensive it is, the better. Offer cheaper versions to give people the opportunity to buy into the cache at a low entry price with the hope of trading up later. How many years can you keep doing this? How many times can John Curl reinvent amplifiers? How many times can you proclaim your new world beating tweeter or time correcting croossover network? How many years can you repackage the same salami and call it steak? The answer seems to be endlessly. While real breakthroughs usually require basic research, tweaking, repackaging, and hype are cheap. In fact, of the three, hype is the most expensive but even the price of that has come down because of the internet. The real cost is paying off the guys who actually push the products through the door. When you take them apart and see what you are getting for your money, and then you compare it with what was the high end ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, not a whole lot has changed. Maybe that's why not too many people around here are excited enough to talk about it. So who are the real dullards? Anybody care to spend an afternoon in the company of Jon Risch?

[Resident Loser]

...I don't hold you personally responsible for anything but your own behavior, I think you know that...

You asked, however, a question re: lack of enthusiastic banter concerning the audio shows mentioned...given that such extravaganzas are pretty much as I described here and elsewhere, and further given the predominant mindset 'round here, why would you expect any different...

It pretty much was a loaded question on your part IMHO, replete with an inferrence that seems quite calculated...shame on you ...bad PC...

Bailiff, whack him on the pee-pee!

jimHJJ(...there, now that that's settled...how's things otherwise...)

[skeptic]

Considering that there are people ready willing and able to discuss the NYC high end audio show over at AA, why isn't that good enough. I wasn't even aware that there was a show in NYC. Had I known, I might even have gone. Maybe I would even have heard Audio Note speakers so I could find out why RGA is so excited about them. Or aren't they high end enough.

Speaking about high end, what ever became of that auricle of the audio temple, His HighnA$$ James Davenport Junior III, America's number one audiophile and consulting audiophile in residence at the Caribou Compound in Maine. We haven't heard anything from him since Woodman called him a Nazi. And with considerable justification it seemed. From what he said, they use Rolland amplifiers and Vandersteen speakers there for table radios....in the shower.

[Resident Loser]

...didja hafta' mention that (and I'm being nice here) lunatic?

As I recall, he originally hailed from parts unknown in northern Maine...given the fact he only started using the Caribou address after I made mention of the place, one might assume he was, in addition to being a complete troll/sham, geographically challenged...perhaps he was lost in a snowstorm...

jimHJJ(...we can only hope...)

[pctower]

There you go putting down the AR community again but you keep coming back here again and again while over there, they periodically slap you down and you go off in a snit. What gives with you PC? Why do you do the same thing over and over again? Don't you ever learn to stop insulting people? If you want to start a thread about the New York high end audio show, why don't you just say so?

The trouble with high end audio today as I see it is that this is an industry exploiting a stagnant technology that isn't going anywhere and hasn't really done much new for decades. You can tweak the same tired old products ad nauseum but the essence of them isn't going to change much. If automobile tires didn't wear out, how would you get someone to trade up to a new set that gave three percent better handling when the natural reaction is "ho hum, who cares." The answer is hype, endless mindblowing hype and lots and lots of hard sell and soft sell advertising. Invent problems that don't exist or amount to a hill of beans if you can and then shout from the rooftops that you're the first and only one who fixed it. If you can't do that, then imbue your products with some special attributes which are beyond measurements and get people to give testimonials. It's best if you can start a cult following. The more expensive it is, the better. Offer cheaper versions to give people the opportunity to buy into the cache at a low entry price with the hope of trading up later. How many years can you keep doing this? How many times can John Curl reinvent amplifiers? How many times can you proclaim your new world beating tweeter or time correcting croossover network? How many years can you repackage the same salami and call it steak? The answer seems to be endlessly. While real breakthroughs usually require basic research, tweaking, repackaging, and hype are cheap. In fact, of the three, hype is the most expensive but even the price of that has come down because of the internet. The real cost is paying off the guys who actually push the products through the door. When you take them apart and see what you are getting for your money, and then you compare it with what was the high end ten, fifteen, twenty years ago, not a whole lot has changed. Maybe that's why not too many people around here are excited enough to talk about it. So who are the real dullards? Anybody care to spend an afternoon in the company of Jon Risch?


There you go putting down the AR community again but you keep coming back here again and again while over there, they periodically slap you down and you go off in a snit. What gives with you PC? Why do you do the same thing over and over again? Don't you ever learn to stop insulting people? If you want to start a thread about the New York high end audio show, why don't you just say so?

I'm an equal puter-downer. And what fun is there in just simply starting a thread?

Interesting how people like you complain about provocations from people like me yet give a pass to those (including yourself) who take the bait and run with it.

If my posts provide no value just ignore them. If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more time).

Candidly, except when I stir up trouble with the natives, this place is a real yawner.

[skeptic]

Then why do you keep coming back? What are you doing here?

The last time you posted a message saying that AA had more intelligent discussions in a week than we have here in a year, I reminded you about that, quoted it several times after you kept denying you said it. I figured you had decided to stop insulting everybody here with your blanket statements and I dropped it but you are right back at it like a schtzo with a split personality. Frankly I prefer your Dr. Jeckyl to your Mr. Hyde even though it reminds me more of Heckel and Jeckyl. So now what? Do you go sulking away again like you've done so many times in the past? Do you quit now or after a few weeks, tell us you're busy or tired and not coming back ever and then within three to six weeks come back all contrite. That would be true to form. How childish.

Why don' t you just appologize like a man, grow up, and stick to the things which actually interest you like audio equipment? Or why don't you just go where the smart stimulating intelligent people in the know hang out and forget about this place? I really don't understand you.

[Bobby Blacklight]

Hey Phil I was there. And you know something I got to listen to the Halcro Room and Vanderstiens and they sounded like crap. If you are serious about sound that is the absolute worst place to go for a listen as the set-ups are severly compromissed. I have actually heard better sound in the soundrooms at Circuit City and Best Buy for this reason.

[Resident Loser]

...with the natives, this place is a real yawner..."

Yup! None of the excitement re: the pros and cons of adding sand to your DIY CAT5 wires or the perils of not using the "correct" Home Depot power cords...avoid the fuschia and the others with the "light meters"...and then of course there's the poor schlub who has clocked over 500 hours waiting for his cables to break-in and expects more than "agreeable" sound for his 800 clams...

jimHJJ(...kept me on the edge of my chair...and the humor is second to none...)

[E-Stat]

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems.
And there's nothing wrong with that. Indeed it seems that the pressing issues seem to be which receiver to buy or how to hook up an external amp. Like Consumer's Reports, this site caters to a broader audience. Why do I post here then? Just as there are some who want to "protect" some from dubious cable claims (and they do abound), I wish I had more exposure to the high end world when I got started. I would have spent less money over time in my evolutionary path. There is a level of performance most folks have not had the good fortune to experience. As an audio hobbyist, I enjoy hearing systems far beyond my financial grasp. Just as I would like to view the 200" Hales telescope at Palomar some day. Because it is there. Slowly, mainstream components are getting better and all benefit. On the other hand, I would not bother with CR when I replace my Honda S2000. Their expertise in such matters is quite limited.

rw

[WmAx]

If my posts provide no value just ignore them. If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop. Of course that would be the final nail in the coffin for this cadaver of an audio board (I learned how to spell "cadaver" in responding to RL so I just had to use it one more is a real yawner

Phil. Why do you ignore my questions? Perhaps I am not deserving of your 'bait'?

-Chris

[Monstrous Mike]

I find it interesting that there is extensive discussion of the New York High End show over at AA, but not a single mention of it that I have found here at AR.

For better or worse, over here it's the Best Buy crowd - over there they have actually listened to one or more high end systems.
It's really quite interesting what you find interesting.

People who are on a true path of musical discovery learn to play an instrument with the hope of developing some talent and playing with other people. That's musical enjoyment. It's not about the sound. It's about the feeling, the words, the communication, the connection, the relaxation; I could go on and on and on.

My personal reason for not caring about shows like this is that I just can't seem to enjoy musical reproduction equipment as much as some people although the toy factor of electronics in general does have some appeal for me.

But like I said, I am getting much more self-satisfaction (musically, and in general) at becoming a better drummer than I ever have playing around with amps and wires and speakers. But hey, that's just me.

[markw]

If people stop taking the bait I'll probably get bored and stop.


Thanks for the perfect straight line.

[Beckman]

What is wrong with best buy? I buy CD's there all the time. The reality is that "other" audio forums are full of yuppies. People that judge the quality of their gear by the cost and not the sound it produces. Then when someone with an electrical engineering degree tries to explain to them that $2000 speaker cables don't improve the sound quality a noticable amount it is an immediate attack on their judgement and they start to feel like they were taken advantage of.

If I were to say my $20 dollar clock radio sounds just as good as any $1000 stereo, people would think I am nuts and wouldn't bother responding. So why is it when I say my $20 worth of speaker cables sound as good as others $2000 worth of speaker cables people get all defensive (which has happened several hundred times on this forum). Could it be because they know I am right and don't want to admit it?

[pctower]

Phil. Why do you ignore my questions? Perhaps I am not deserving of your 'bait'?

-Chris

Chris:

I'm sorry - I didn't mean anything personal.

I've been hanging around here and over at AA for over two years. I rarely take anything that goes on at either place too seriously. There are certain people who so mangle truth and reason that I can't keep quite and I get pretty serious, but those people are mainly over at AA.

My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass.

I just didn't have the energy to respond specifically to the points you raised, because if I were to get serious I would probably agree with much of what you said.

I already "fought all the good fights" both here and over at AA, and don't have a lot of fight left in me. Most of the fighting was done while I was on an extended, unplanned professional hyatis. I'm back in the thick of thing professionally again, so I just don't have the time or energy left over to get really involved as I used to.

Nonetheless, I find this place fun for some sick reason so I still try to drop by as much as I can.

[pctower]

Hey Phil I was there. And you know something I got to listen to the Halcro Room and Vanderstiens and they sounded like crap. If you are serious about sound that is the absolute worst place to go for a listen as the set-ups are severly compromissed. I have actually heard better sound in the soundrooms at Circuit City and Best Buy for this reason.

Yea, from what I read over at AA, the Vandersteen room with Rogue electronics was pretty limp.

I heard the 5-As at the Audio Research room at CES and they sounded really good, but they had a huge room that worked ok acoustically. Also, I own a pair of the 5s and have been a Vandy owner for over 15 years, so I'm biased.

In the standard hotel rooms at CES nothing sounded good.

The thing I remember most from CES was the time I spent listening to a restored Ampex reel-to-reel playing old commercial tapes. That was a blast.

[woodman]

Well Phil, it comes as a great relief to me to find out that you only started this silly thread to "yank some chains" ... when I first read it, I thought that you just might be serious.

I think that "high-end audio" serves no useful purpose, and should die a slow, ignominous death - and preferably as soon as possible. It only exists to give those sick humans that have the deeply ingrained psychological need, a way for them to feel superior to other human beans. There's simply no other explanation for why anyone would spend $20,000 for an amplifier fer crissakes. Or $5,000 for a CD player. Or $100,000 for a pair of speakers ... all of which adds up to sheer idiocy!

Some of the manufacturers of this crap (and I use the word in the most loving way) add a lot to the "problem" by their snobbish, elitist attitudes. This also spills over to the retailers who try their best to sell this stuff to the painfully gullible by making them feel that they wouldn't be able to enjoy music at all without these $2,000 wires! Sheeeeeeesh!

[skeptic]

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

Mark me down for category two.

[thepogue]

"My post that started this thread was not intended to be taken seriously. I was just trying to jerk some chains for the fun of it. I consider it good natured humor. Others think I'm just being a total ass."

Mark me down for category two.

Peace and Paradigms.....Pogue

[gonefishin]

Pogue...I gotta know. Were you really James Davenport Briggs Huett the third? (or whatever his name was)




Hi PC :)

Even tho you were just yankin' chains...I'll still answer why I have know interest in going to the New York show (or shows like it)

It just doesn't interest me. Too much hype for too much money.

I suppose it's along the same reasoning why I don't care to read StereoPhile anymore...just no interest.

But please, don't think that the above two reasons, for not wanting to go to the show, would suggest that I'm no longer interested in two channel reproduction systems. My interest (and pleasure) has never been greater in audio.

(hmmm...also...please don't read the above statement and think that two channel reproduction takes the front seat to music. My love for music grows each day...not for the sound...but for the emotion!)


maybe I'm writing too much into the statement ;)



Bobby Blacklight...I didn't know you were you! Hi :)


hehe...ok...I'm done...


take care all>>>>>>>

[thepogue]

na...that wasn't me..no way...too much work pertendin' ta be someone else!!! I have a hard time keepin' up wiff meself! ;)


Nice ta see ya! Peace, Pogue