Bi-amping with Paradigms?

[Harryt]

Hi there. I'm just about brand new to the world of stereo systems (having owned a only a boom box until a few months ago) and need some help. I recently got Paradigm Studio Reference 60 v3 speakers for a music-only stereo system. They sound pretty terrific to me, hooked up to a Jolida tube hybrid amp/preamp. At higher volume, the sound is really nice and clean. And lower volumes, the bass sounds a bit soft and muddy to me. Based on my online research, it seems that some people would say this is just the way that systems operate and it's hard to find really clean bass at low volumes. Others seem to say this might be more function of using a tube amp over an ss amp. So, I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to buy a second amp (either ss or a tube/ss hybrid) and just plug it in to the lower speaker ins. Or whether it's a more complicated process. Or whether you pros out there think that this is a waste and won't really achieve what I'm after anyway. Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated....

Thanks.

[Wireworm5]

I can't say your tube amp isn't doing the job. But my experience with Paradigm was that two receivers I have rated at 100 watts couldn't drive them adaquately. I even tried bi-amping which didn't work. My Yammie RX-V2200 however powers them without bi-amping. I'm thinking of getting a another amp just to power my Studio 100's.
Before using the Yammie I would say my monitor 7's didn't sound any better than my Cerwin Vegas. Certainly not worth the price difference. But with the change they just opened up. Sure the Vegas sounded better too, but now I can hear what better speakers can do powered adaquately.
My .02 cents.

[Jimmy C]

...in my humble opinion (boy... they should make an abbreviation for that - something like "IMHO", or whatever :*) it's probably the tubes softening things up. I have a pair of Studio 60s (v2) that I ran with a Denon receiver, then a Rotel 200 watt per side. The last term I would use to describe the bass would have been "muddy". If anything, it was too lean and shelved-back.

Bi-amping can be costly, not to mention a pain in the neck. If, however, you can borrow an SS amp from a dealer... go for it. If you are satisfied with the results (and the additional cost) you may have your answer.

Personally, I would save for a big leap in sound quality if the cost exceeded a few hundred bux. Maybe a used Adcom, Rotel, etc. would do the trick...

[Harryt]

Or might it make sense to get a separate subwoofer (and maybe even a ss amp for that) to clean up the bass?

[Jimmy C]

...a sub won't necessarily fix up what is coming from the speakers... it will certainly add a foundation you didn't have, but I don't think that's the panacea. Yes, many subs have an adjustable cut-off, and that would alleviate the mains of deep bass, but I would prefer having the Paradigms run full-range and having the sub come from underneath and up to them. From my listening experiences both ways (running full or being cut-off at point X), this is an easier way to integrate the two. I'm not, however, saying the other way can't be done...

Most subs have a built-in amp, you probably won't need to buy one.

Again, demo if possible, and good luck...

[thepogue]

one is bi-amping......one is the tube vs. SS

first let me say i run Paradigm 100 v2 with two Adcom triple nickles (bi-amped) and to be honest i didn't hear a bloody difference when I was running one or two amps....I'm not at all sorry I went w/two Adcoms because it allowed me to use a set of "home-grown" speaker wires that cost well over 400 bucks (not that I paid 400 clams!) but I could only use them bi-amping (because of the length). and even at that I'm not sure the mega wire did anything save make my system look more high-end....which is really neat for the "geee-wiz" factor but did do much for the sound...but I buy used stuff so even when i don't get amazing results I never out more than a few hundred bucks and it teaches me along the way....but thats just my take on it...


now for the second issue...tubes vs SS. I have a smallish tube set up in a bedroom...and i love the warmth...but i don"t hear the "slam" of my SS system...i think for the most part they just sound different...to me anyway...(and as you can see from the above, i dont mind at all saying when i do or dont hear a difference and in this case...i DO hear a difference in tubes) so as stated by someone above I'd try to get a cheapie SS and give her a whirl...just for a test so to speak.

one other point/option.....i did buy a sub to run w/my 100's for one simple fact...bass management...I love the 100's "slam" factor...but i needed to crank my system up to get me innards moving...and heck I'd really like to keep my ears for another 40 years or so....so i decided to pick up a sub (Monitor Audio 210) and it did all I needed and more...but the main advantage was it allowed me to have that killer slam at lower volumes.......and thats just an awesome tool for me! one last warning...it seems that because of the different recording levels (mainly in the lower octave ranges) it may take a bit of tweeking for different CD's/LP's....,..this is most obvious when playing something recorded in the 70's then switching to something recorded after...1990 or so...but tweeking is the name of the game...isn't it?....

I'm attaching a pic so everyone can see just how much "fire-junk" you can stuff into one room....but soon my kids will be moved away and I'll be knocking down walls and hopfully I'll have a dedicated fire-room and a listening room...not two in the same ;) you can see the big fat cables that look great but sound like home depot hiding behind the 100's...i dont think i could move the amp more than another inch or so and run outta wire....

Good Luck!! Peace, Pogue

[RGA]

If your Jolida has a 4 ohm tap you may want to run it that way even though your speakers are rated at 8 ohms. Some tube amps have much improved bass response run at 4 ohms as it effectively doubles the power into an 8 ohm speaker.

I read a review of a tube amp in this issue of HI Fi + magazine of an ampliphion 25 or something tube amp from Poland - and it uses the same tubes the Jolida 302B uses. So it's worth a try. GO a little easy on the volume to be safe and you may want to pose your question on the tube forum at audioasylum.com.

You may also want to simply try a different tube in the preamp stage which may improve things as well.

[mtrycraft]

Hi there. I'm just about brand new to the world of stereo systems (having owned a only a boom box until a few months ago) and need some help. I recently got Paradigm Studio Reference 60 v3 speakers for a music-only stereo system. They sound pretty terrific to me, hooked up to a Jolida tube hybrid amp/preamp. At higher volume, the sound is really nice and clean. And lower volumes, the bass sounds a bit soft and muddy to me. Based on my online research, it seems that some people would say this is just the way that systems operate and it's hard to find really clean bass at low volumes. Others seem to say this might be more function of using a tube amp over an ss amp. So, I'm trying to figure out if it makes sense to buy a second amp (either ss or a tube/ss hybrid) and just plug it in to the lower speaker ins. Or whether it's a more complicated process. Or whether you pros out there think that this is a waste and won't really achieve what I'm after anyway. Any thoughts/suggestions would be appreciated....

Thanks.

The tube amp certainly can have problems with its low to very low dampening factor that applies to the low driver. The ear is also less sensitive at lower volumes in bass so that will add to your issues.

You may want to try a dedicated sub?