Definitive Tech vs. B&W (need advice)

[stevos2005]

I've done some research and need to buy bookshelf speakers that will be used as mains in a home theater system. Eventually, in a year or two, they'll be moved to a music only system in a home office. I have nearly perfect pitch, so music is very important to me, but I do watch a lot of movies. I already have a Polk RTi 500 f/x bipole speakers (that were meant for surrounds) as main speakers and no center, and the old Polk LS f/x as rears. Matching the polks doesn't matter, as they will eventually be replaced/sold. I do have a polk PSW650 subwoofer right now.

I really want something that'll sound distincly better than the polks. I listen to basically all kinds of music. I'm driving them with a Yamaha RX-V2095 with 100wpc, but that'll be upgraded eventually to something like NAD, B&K, Bryston, ATI, Rotel, etc. separates with 120-150wpc.

Right now I'm considering either Definitive Technology Power Monitor 500's or the B&W DM602 S3. The Def Tech's retail at $850/pair, and the B&W's are much cheaper at $600/pair.

I haven't heard either of the speakers, so I'm not sure what to think. From appearances alone, the B&W's look extremely high quality for their price, but appearances can be deceiving. The Def Tech's feature powered subs, linkwitz-riley crossovers, and higher power handling (that won't really matter with 100wpc), but it basically comes down to what sounds better. Has anyone heard either, or preferably both of these brands (Def Tech Power Monitor series or B&W 600 S3 series) or is familiar with then, I'd appreciate any advice.

Thanks!

[N. Abstentia]

These are just MY opinions. Keep that in mind. However I'm very strict with my speakers, and I like them to sound a certain way. I like very accurate speakers that are somewhat forward sounding and have a little more in the high end.

I didn't like the Def Tech's because they sounded to tinny. Very poor for music and I don't like plastic enclosures.

The B&W 600 series were better, but still flat for my tastes. The B&W CDM series was more my speed, but I ended up going with Paradigm Reference Active 40's because they were the most dynamic and spacious sounding of the lot, and they imaged every bit as good as the B&W CDM's. If you like it a little more laid back, look into the B&W CDM's.

[RGA]

I have not heard the Def Techs - they don't sell here.

B&W's 600 series is perhaps the best line I have heard for the money. The 602S3 offers bags fo sonics for the money. A little less refined compared to the CDM line but the CDM line is no longer made. If you can find a deal on the CDM 1NT it might be a good deal. B&W is typically well matched with Rotel gear if you're considering a sane budget.
B&W is the largest high end speaker maker in the world and the 600 series is their bread and butter line.

Whether it's the best to your ear only you can decide. What is good about the 602S3. Bass and dynamic realism. When not properly amplified some may find them lacking a bit in the lower registers. More than enough impact for most listeners in a small to medium sized room. The Paradigm Studio 40 for more money is comparable - has a leaner less full sounding sound - depends on what you like I guess. I would like a smoother top end for the money but both are comparable - the new V3 series from Paradigm is supposedly improved. But will take you out of this budget. The CDM 1NT IMO is better than both. You may want to consider a speaker from Dynaudio - they are much tougher to drive.

It requires listening - speaker buying is totally subjective - what one person likes in the treble another will find harsh fatiguing and unlivable. People also seem to rave about the Von Sweikert's. Also check out Linn, Totem, and possibly PMC.

[topspeed]

I haven't heard either of the speakers, so I'm not sure what to think. Thanks!

And therein lies the problem.

No one here can tell you which one is better, only our preferences, which of course mean nothing. It's the same as one preferring redheads while another prefers blonds. You need to grab some of your favorite tunes that you're familiar with, go listen, and determine for yourself which sound you prefer. Once you do, you'll find that DefTech and B&W don't sound anything alike so differentiating between the two will be easy.

The quality you perceive in B&W is not some cheap veneer. B&W's are reknown for their meticulous build quality and their high resale prices reflect that. I agree with N. that the CDM's sound better than the 602s3's, by a good margin. However, the CDMNT line is out of production and was replaced by the 700's, which have been very well received by both Stereophile and TAS, if that means anything to you. Unfortunately, the smallest is the 705 and it starts at $1,500/pair. You can try audiogon.com and see if you can find a nice used pair of CDM 1NT's (the 705's predecessor) for around $600-700. The 1NT's use a real wood veneer (cherry, birch, or ash), are gorgeous, and voiced much closer to the Nautilus line than the 700's. Yes, I have a pair, in case you haven't guessed. These are pending, but will give you an idea.
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1089561970

When purchasing a set of standmounts for my br system, I preferred the Von Schweikert VR1's to anything comparable from Paradigm, DefTech, Monitor Audio, JM Lab, Energy Veritas, and a host of others. These are much smaller than the 1NT's yet have mind blowing dynamics. The VR's also use real wood which is a rarity in this price class. Sound is paramount but let's be honest, you still have to look at them. They have a warm, musical sound and aren't quite as analytical as the CDM's, yet give up nothing in detail retrieval. The best characterization is the VR1's are a cabernet whereas the CDM's are a pinot. The VSA house sound is as different from the B&W as they are from DefTech so again, you'll have to listen to see which one you prefer. VR'1 list is $990 but can be had for dramatically less, trust me.
http://vonschweikert.com/vr1.html

Hope this helps

[stevos2005]

Thanks for the help guys.. I guess I'll just have to go and listen to them all. Although the CDM series is out of production, there's the CM series. The 700 series is a little out of my price range, while the 600 series is well within it, and the CM is also right within it. How does the CM series compare with the 600's? In any case, I'm guessing most people would think B&W 602's are better than Polk RT series speakers. I'll let you know when I hear them.

Also, is it true that Definitive Technology uses plastic enclosures? That's truly a shame. I'll still audition those, but the general trend I'm seeing is that Def Tech's are great for HT but average for music. With their excellent bass response, I see how they're good for HT.

I looked into the Rotel Amps. They seem to be the right price and the right options/configurations. How do they sound? Are they more edgy, hopefully not tinny, or more warm. I like a very natural accurate sound, with tight yet decent bass, a little on the warm side if not natural, but definitely not rolled off with crisp highs.

Also, does anyone know if it is possible to haggle/deal on B&W's or Paradigms? I'm also considering the Studio 40. They also appear to be of very decent construction.

Thanks.

[RGA]

The CM series is more looks than substance. They still sound good mind you but you're paying for looks. The Studio 40 V2 is a good speaker and may also have some close-out prices because the V3 series has come out.

But you need to really listen to this stuff because there are many I like but would not myself really want to own. The Studio 40 I respect more than like. I respect the sound it offers up but I would not personally want it. Others think it's the bee's knees.

My aversion is based on the treble mostly and the overal interation and timbral accuracy. I have problems similar to those with the 602S3 but it's cheaper and a bit more forgivable because it offers up a more rotund sound that covers a bit of the weaknesses.

Rotel is good value for money always has been - built well and consistant.

When you go out auditioning gear I would keep the following article in your head because I think it will help you. It was written by Audio Note's head honcho but it has nothing really to do with them but will help you be a better shopper. The problem is when we start out in this hobby we get bogged down by glitzy looking products, big marketing campaigns, and reviews by people here or in magazines. I was there did that and it's a disaster. It almost seems like the no name, no advertisers, little reviewed and butt ugly stuff is far and away better. Gross generalization there are exceptions but let the music seduce you not the blathering.

Most stuff today is technically sound - the trick is to sound not technical.

http://www.audionote.co.uk/anp1.htm

[Woochifer]

Thanks for the help guys.. I guess I'll just have to go and listen to them all. Although the CDM series is out of production, there's the CM series. The 700 series is a little out of my price range, while the 600 series is well within it, and the CM is also right within it. How does the CM series compare with the 600's? In any case, I'm guessing most people would think B&W 602's are better than Polk RT series speakers. I'll let you know when I hear them.

Also, is it true that Definitive Technology uses plastic enclosures? That's truly a shame. I'll still audition those, but the general trend I'm seeing is that Def Tech's are great for HT but average for music. With their excellent bass response, I see how they're good for HT.

I looked into the Rotel Amps. They seem to be the right price and the right options/configurations. How do they sound? Are they more edgy, hopefully not tinny, or more warm. I like a very natural accurate sound, with tight yet decent bass, a little on the warm side if not natural, but definitely not rolled off with crisp highs.

Also, does anyone know if it is possible to haggle/deal on B&W's or Paradigms? I'm also considering the Studio 40. They also appear to be of very decent construction.

Thanks.


It really doesn't matter what we think, since we're not the ones you're buying speakers for. Between B&W and Def Tech, IMO I would take the B&Ws in an instant. On the other hand, I know people who swear by their Def Techs. In general, the Def Tech devotees tend to skew more towards home theater in their listening, but people on this board have also indicated that Def Techs are also great speakers for rock and hip hop. You'll also need to assess whether you like their bipolar designs. Again, some people like and swear by that effect, others (like me) don't.

I don't think their Def Tech's cabinets are made out of plastic (although I think some of their gloss black finishes are plastic laminates), but even if they are, that shouldn't matter so long as the sound quality is there. The Bose Acoustimass cubes and most cheap mini-system speakers are made out of plastic, but so are Wilson Audio's high end WATT/Puppy models. So, you can't really make much of anything just based on the material used in the cabinet.

Pricewise, your odds of getting a good deal increase if you're buying a multichannel setup. You can haggle, but your leverage is limited given that both Paradigm and B&W allocate exclusive territories for their U.S. dealers -- you won't ever see two B&W dealers in the same neighborhood. If you want a good deal, try and look for the discontinued Studio v.2 or CDM series.

If you don't mind mismatched colors/finishes or going with a demo or second hand unit, you might be able to piece together a multichannel setup if you call up several dealers in your area and see what they got left in their stockrooms. This is especially true if the dealers in your area offer 100% upgrade credit within the first one or two years. With the Paradigm Signature and Studio v.3, and B&W 700 series coming out within the past year, those dealers might have several trade-in 600 series and Studio v.2 models in their inventory.

If you're interested in the Studio 40 v.3, you should also look into the Studio 20 v.3, especially if you plan to add a subwoofer to your system. Both are excellent options with great all-around versatility for both music and home theater use. The Studio 40 has a weightier sound and probably slightly better coherency in the midrange, but the Studio 20 has better imaging ability.

As far as amps go, the differences will be a lot more subtle than the differences between speakers. For either the B&W 600 series, Paradigm Studio series, or the Def Techs, they won't put such a strain on an amp such that you'll absolutely need to go with separates. Before you go obsessing about the amp, I would suggest that you first do some checking on your room's acoustics. IMO, room acoustics are second to or tied with speakers in importance for audio performance. Amps and digital sources have far less variability by comparison.

If your room's got some slap echo or inconsistent characteristics from one part of the room to another, you might need to invest in room treatments and some testing equipment (SPL meter and test disc at a minimum). If the room acoustics aren't taken care of, it won't matter how good the amp is, it will all sound bad.

[Woochifer]

I have not heard the Def Techs - they don't sell here.

There is a Def Tech dealer in Vancouver, so now you have your opportunity.

http://www.soundroom.ca

[chimera128]

It really doesn't matter what we think, since we're not the ones you're buying speakers for. Between B&W and Def Tech, IMO I would take the B&Ws in an instant. On the other hand, I know people who swear by their Def Techs. In general, the Def Tech devotees tend to skew more towards home theater in their listening, but people on this board have also indicated that Def Techs are also great speakers for rock and hip hop. You'll also need to assess whether you like their bipolar designs. Again, some people like and swear by that effect, others (like me) don't.

I don't think their Def Tech's cabinets are made out of plastic (although I think some of their gloss black finishes are plastic laminates), but even if they are, that shouldn't matter so long as the sound quality is there. The Bose Acoustimass cubes and most cheap mini-system speakers are made out of plastic, but so are Wilson Audio's high end WATT/Puppy models. So, you can't really make much of anything just based on the material used in the cabinet.

Pricewise, your odds of getting a good deal increase if you're buying a multichannel setup. You can haggle, but your leverage is limited given that both Paradigm and B&W allocate exclusive territories for their U.S. dealers -- you won't ever see two B&W dealers in the same neighborhood. If you want a good deal, try and look for the discontinued Studio v.2 or CDM series.

If you don't mind mismatched colors/finishes or going with a demo or second hand unit, you might be able to piece together a multichannel setup if you call up several dealers in your area and see what they got left in their stockrooms. This is especially true if the dealers in your area offer 100% upgrade credit within the first one or two years. With the Paradigm Signature and Studio v.3, and B&W 700 series coming out within the past year, those dealers might have several trade-in 600 series and Studio v.2 models in their inventory.

If you're interested in the Studio 40 v.3, you should also look into the Studio 20 v.3, especially if you plan to add a subwoofer to your system. Both are excellent options with great all-around versatility for both music and home theater use. The Studio 40 has a weightier sound and probably slightly better coherency in the midrange, but the Studio 20 has better imaging ability.

As far as amps go, the differences will be a lot more subtle than the differences between speakers. For either the B&W 600 series, Paradigm Studio series, or the Def Techs, they won't put such a strain on an amp such that you'll absolutely need to go with separates. Before you go obsessing about the amp, I would suggest that you first do some checking on your room's acoustics. IMO, room acoustics are second to or tied with speakers in importance for audio performance. Amps and digital sources have far less variability by comparison.

If your room's got some slap echo or inconsistent characteristics from one part of the room to another, you might need to invest in room treatments and some testing equipment (SPL meter and test disc at a minimum). If the room acoustics aren't taken care of, it won't matter how good the amp is, it will all sound bad.

The cabinets of the DefTechs are made out of Medite, which is a plastic. It is very ridgid though. I have a Procinema 100.6 package and have dropped the speakers, and even kicked them (it landed on my foot ^^), and they are still as rigid as when I got them. You should know that Definitive Technology speakers are best when used as home theatre speakers. However their high-end BP7000SCs sound great if setup properly. I own a pair and people who come over and take a listen always leave amazed by the sound.
In terms of your speakers selection I would suggest looking at some of the Definitive Technology towers instead of the Powered Bookshelfs. The BP6B and BP8B still have close to subwoofer frequency response (though they will definitely not play as loud or with as much impact as a real sub, but neither will the B&W or the PowerMonitors). This will eliminate your need for speakers stands and will give you a much more spacious sound. Of course as many people have noted here bipolar sound, or the sound of any speaker for that matter, is a matter of personal preference. The only suggestion I can make is that when you listen to the DefTech speakers make sure that they are set to "LARGE". When I bought my BP10Bs for use as surrounds they were set as small in the listening room. When I got them home there was a huge difference in the sound quality they produced. Also, don't listen to too many speakers in one day. If you can listen to the B&W's then go and listen to the DefTechs. Also keep in mind that the electronics used will affect the sound of the speakers. Hope this helps if you haven't already bought your speakers.