Belt Drive vs. Direct Drive

[N. Abstentia]

Okay, what's the difference (other than the obvious)?

I've found a nice looking Denon direct drive table that I can get for a good price (probably less than $50!), but it seems that belt drive is the preferred type. What's wrong with direct drive?

[FLZapped]

Okay, what's the difference (other than the obvious)?

I've found a nice looking Denon direct drive table that I can get for a good price (probably less than $50!), but it seems that belt drive is the preferred type. What's wrong with direct drive?

Nothing. I had a Dual 721 and loved it. No belt maintenance.

-Bruce

[skeptic]

Excellent results can be gotten with both designs. What audiophiles don't know or seem to understand but that engineers do is that there is often more than one route to to equivalent results. The job of a turntable is to support the phonograph record and turn it at exactly 33 1/2 RPM without speed variation or vibrations and to shield electrical and magnetic fields produced by the motor from causing hum and noise in the cartridge. That's all. If you can do that reliably, it doesn't matter whether the motor is coupled with a belt, geared to the platter, coupled by an idler wheel, driving the platter directly, or the platter is driven by a water wheel or a windmill.

The criteria for most good designs are a powerful motor which has a constant speed. It could be of several types including a dc servo motor, an ac hysteresis synchronis motor or even an induction motor. Usually the platter is heavy to create a good flywheel (the rotational mass (inertia) doesn't easily change speeds even if there is slight slippage by a belt because the mass is so great), all moving parts are precision made of stable materials, carefully machined to very close tolerances, precisely balanced, mounted on a heavy stable platform and often suspended in a way that isolates it from external vibrations and shocks. Proponents of some types, notably belt drives, claim that direct drive turntables have some sort of cogwheel effect. This makes no sense at all and there is no objective evidence for it. What type do I have? I have several turntables which include both types.

[Woochifer]

Back in the day, a lot of direct drive turntables did a poor job at isolating the motor noise from the platter and tonearm. Because they are directly connected to the platter, the torque for direct drive motors is higher than with a belt drive (which is why direct drive is the design of choice for DJ rigs). This makes the design a bit trickier. Belt drives are much simpler, and with a low torque motor, there's less inherent potential for noise and interference.

That said, Denon was one of the turntable manufacturers that did a good job at designing their direct drive to avoid these shortcomings. For $50, it's definitely worth a shot.

[N. Abstentia]

Well you're all going to get sick of me with these turntables, this is about the 32nd message where I've asked for advice. But here's what happened in a nutshell..I bid on a Rotel turntable and got outbid, but the seller offered it to me for my bid price because the winner backed out. So I went ahead and bought the Rotel, it's what I wanted first. The only thing I don't like is the wood colored base, but I might be able to use my cabninetry skills and strip that crap off and make it a nice black. Depends how hard it is to disassemble and re-assemble.

So again, I need advice. Here's the table:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=3094380140&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

For $50 I don't see how I could go wrong. Now does that Audio Technica seem like a good cartridge? Honestly I wouldn't mind replacing it if I can get a better sound, but wouldn't want to go over $60 for a new cartridge. Worth it? Or is that a good quality cartridge?

[92135011]

I got myself a DD...
but it sucks. Speed never stays constant
cant even do its main purpose correctly
gotta get a new one later

[Woochifer]

For $50 I don't see how I could go wrong. Now does that Audio Technica seem like a good cartridge? Honestly I wouldn't mind replacing it if I can get a better sound, but wouldn't want to go over $60 for a new cartridge. Worth it? Or is that a good quality cartridge?

Audio Technica has made some excellent cartridges in the past, but they can also make some pretty mediocre ones as well. IMO, the cartridge itself makes more of an impact on the sound quality than the turntable itself, and is typically overlooked. $60 for a cartridge is not a lot. I spent about $75 on a Sumiko Black Pearl that replaced the Ortofon OM20 that I had been using for over 10 years (just swapped out the stylus every two years or so), and I can't wait to replace that cartridge. I basically swapped out the Ortofon because the replacement needle for the OM20 more than doubled in price, but now I really miss the sound from that cartridge and want it back, even if it now costs $195!.

[hifitommy]

Well you're all going to get sick of me with these turntables, this is about the 32nd message where I've asked for advice. But here's what happened in a nutshell..I bid on a Rotel turntable and got outbid, but the seller offered it to me for my bid price because the winner backed out. So I went ahead and bought the Rotel, it's what I wanted first. The only thing I don't like is the wood colored base, but I might be able to use my cabninetry skills and strip that crap off and make it a nice black. Depends how hard it is to disassemble and re-assemble.

So again, I need advice. Here's the table:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=3283&item=3094380140&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

For $50 I don't see how I could go wrong. Now does that Audio Technica seem like a good cartridge? Honestly I wouldn't mind replacing it if I can get a better sound, but wouldn't want to go over $60 for a new cartridge. Worth it? Or is that a good quality cartridge?
i guess you must have the black and you would have to completely disassemble the table to get at the base correctly to remove the veneer and maybe apply black shiny formica. done well, this could make you very proud. you have to realize that it could go either way.

it looks like an ADC sourced arm on the table and thats not a bad thing. those were some NICE photos in that ad. it looks like it would be good. change out the cartridge though to an at440ML or shure m97xe, both about $90, it will be worth every penny.

the denon would probably be ok, its not gonna be horrible by any stretch. its just when you start getting into the higher end, good DDs are not easy to find. and yes, the cogging exists. perhaps it can be cured but its quite disconcerting to watch the speed vary on the strobe. and i dont know of such a cure. i think the cogging has been mostly found on technics and kenwood tables.

[skeptic]

"The only thing I don't like is the wood colored base, but I might be able to use my cabninetry skills and strip that crap off and make it a nice black. Depends how hard it is to disassemble and re-assemble."

"For $50 I don't see how I could go wrong."

For $50 you're lucky you got anything.

I wouldn't take it apart if I were you. You might wind up with a nice black base to support a turntable that no longer works.

I'd go for the Shure cartridge.

[hifitommy]

those are ALL good answers. i like your short answer format. ;^)

[N. Abstentia]

"The only thing I don't like is the wood colored base, but I might be able to use my cabninetry skills and strip that crap off and make it a nice black. Depends how hard it is to disassemble and re-assemble."

"For $50 I don't see how I could go wrong."

For $50 you're lucky you got anything.

I wouldn't take it apart if I were you. You might wind up with a nice black base to support a turntable that no longer works.

I'd go for the Shure cartridge.

Well I had quite a few tables to choose from for around $50-$100. I thought the Rotel was the best of several Denon, NAD (not the Rega one), and others I had to choose from.

The Shure M97xe was the exact cartridge I was looking at, along with the Ortofon OM20 for $20 more.

I'll wait and see the turntable before tearing it apart. I've been an Electronic Engineer for over 10 years and I've built many a speaker system and repaired many an amp/cassette deck/cd player but I've never worked on a turntable!

[hifitommy]

it sounds like a good adventure to try this tt. welcome to good sound and reeeeely affordable software.

[N. Abstentia]

Affordable software is the key. I've always been a 'lurker' Genesis fan (Pre-Invisible Touch) but never bought any of their CD's. Now with the miracle of Ebay I've got all but 3 of thieir albums and have less than $20 invested! There's some great music to discover there, but nothing I care to listen to in the car so I'm loving these Genesis records. I'm just looking forward to replacing my old crappy Pioneer turntable with something much better!

[hifitommy]

N.,

you dont say where you live, and that could save you money:

http://www.recordcollectorsguild.org/record_stores/record_stores.html

ebay prices may be good to you but there are better and bigger choices. also, by now you have seen my posts re TTs.

[skeptic]

"I'll wait and see the turntable before tearing it apart. I've been an Electronic Engineer for over 10 years and I've built many a speaker system and repaired many an amp/cassette deck/cd player but I've never worked on a turntable!"

If you had said you were an electronics technician, I might have said; go at it. However, many engineers do their work with pencil and paper or on a computer and leave the hands on work to the technicians. However, if you feel competent to tackle it then by all means. Be careful, parts of the equipment can be extremely fragile and alignment is critical. It is most protected when it is assembled on its base.

[N. Abstentia]

Nah, I'm a hands-on guy. I didn't learn jack squat in school, but it all came clear once I was able to tear down things and analyze them.

I do also build and repair computers on the side, but as far as doing work on them...not for me. I guess I am actually a technician, my degree is just in electronics engineering which is a general degree which gives a good foundation to build on.

Yeah, the alignment issue is a major concern. I'm not even sure if I want to upgrade the cartridge because of alignment, balances, VTA, skating, and all that good stuff!

[skeptic]

Installing a cartrigde properly is not that hard if you aren't all thumbs especially with all the aids. The V15 comes with a special tool that practically forces you to get it right. Maybe the M97 does too.
Even an electronics technician can do it.