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Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 08:59 AM
I followed the instructions from the user manual from my Ascend Acoustics speakers.

It said to measure from the center between the two mains, out to the center of your listening position. Take that number which is 12.4" for me, and multiply it by 0.73 to find the optimum distance between the two mains. Well, currently my mains are 4 feet apart (I will have to rearrange the entire room if this is insane). The math says they need to be 9 feet apart. So I am guessing my HT system sounds like crap probably due to this? Opinions please!

topspeed
05-04-2004, 09:13 AM
I followed the instructions from the user manual from my Ascend Acoustics speakers.

It said to measure from the center between the two mains, out to the center of your listening position. Take that number which is 12.4" for me, and multiply it by 0.73 to find the optimum distance between the two mains. Well, currently my mains are 4 feet apart (I will have to rearrange the entire room if this is insane). The math says they need to be 9 feet apart. So I am guessing my HT system sounds like crap probably due to this? Opinions please!

...and start moving furniture. 4 feet?? You might as well play back in mono. I can't imagine there is any sort of width to your soundstage with your speaks so close together. Personally, I've always started with an equilateral triangle and then tweaked from there. Your room's acoustics will have a huge affect on how your system sounds so pay attention to reflections, furniture placement, bookcases, curtains, rugs, etc. I'd also play with the toe-in until it sounds best to you.

Audio is like real estate; location, location, location.

Good luck

Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 10:16 AM
I made a drawing of the room, you can see it by accessing this link:

http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/livingroom.JPG

Behind the couch, is the path to walk in to the kitchen. The rectangle accross from the coffee table is the fireplace. The opening near the chair is the dinning room. Where the TV is marked is the TV stand catty-cornered. The speakres sit on each said 4' apart from inside side of one speaker to the next. To gain the 9' feet of distance, I would have to move the TV/stand into the bay window (where nothing is, it's just open). and put the speakers against the wall where the bay window ends. So the speakers will not be backed against the glass, but against the walls.

The couch+end table will not fit in the opening to the dinning room where the chair is. Although I could angle the couch more towards the bay window then it's current position. I would also be moving the lounge chair more to the middle of the opening to get it centered with the listening position.

That is the only thing I can think of to resolve this problem. I will take some real pictures, so you can better see the room. Standby for those...

Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 10:23 AM
Alrighty, I have pictures from the actual room now. Some may make comments about watching tv with a window behind it but I do have sun blocking shades. :)

http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00010.JPG
http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00012.JPG
http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00013.JPG
http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00014.JPG

topspeed
05-04-2004, 11:53 AM
Nikon,

That's a tough room, brother. In an ideal world (w/ limitless funds no less), I'd get a LCD or plasma and mount it above your fireplace. That thing is zero clearance anyway so it shouldn't be throwing out too much heat. No? Can you move the tv next to the fp? I'd put the speaks on either side w/ an equipment rack on the wall leading to the dr if necessary. Your surrounds can go on the walls beside the couch. The chair I'd move near the window. You've got horrible feng shui right now with it blocking the entrance to the dr anyway.

Other than that, I'm out of ideas. Yes, you could move the tv to the widow but that seems like a last resort as you'll have to have your blinds closed anytime you want to watch and everyone on your street will get a nice view of the back of your set. Not good.



Sorry, that's just a tough layout.

Good luck

Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 12:20 PM
Yeah, in an ideal world with limited funds a LCD Plasma over the fireplace would be a time saver. I have the parts to install a mantel which is my spring project. Sitting a center channel on the mantel would be a kicker. :) How about that for a mantel piece! If I moved the tv close to the fireplace, the center channel wouldn't be in the center of the two mains. :\ So other than buying a plasma screen for over the fireplace my last resort would be infront of the bay window I guess.

If you could explain further on moving the tv/stand closer to the fireplace and how to get the mains to be equal distance from the center channel I am all ears. :)

Prefuse
05-04-2004, 01:25 PM
If music is your primary concern I would go with the previous suggestion of moving the speakers so they are on each side of the fireplace. Your couch is already in a position to support this. How often do you use your fireplace?

Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 01:45 PM
Music listening is about 20% of my usage. Home Theatre is the other 80%.

topspeed
05-04-2004, 02:39 PM
Don't worry about the center not being exactly between the mains. The key is to have the dialogue appear to be coming from the screen so keep the center above or below your screen. In HT, most of the information is coming from the center and not equally spread across the three speaker up front so this shouldn't create a huge problem for you. In fact, I doubt you'll even notice. However, the gains in your effects from spreading out your mains will be substantial.

Hope this helps.

Hey Prefuse,
You're in SD? Just caught a game at Petco. That a NICE ballpark bro! Good to see Hoff back in action (he pitched a 1-2-3 9th).

Lord Nikon
05-04-2004, 04:11 PM
I took some of topspeeds advice... is this what you were referring to? This from center of the couch. Not sure if it is my wiring, or not... or my ear but the right sounds louder than the left.

http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00015.JPG
http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00016.JPG

Prefuse
05-04-2004, 04:55 PM
Don't worry about the center not being exactly between the mains. The key is to have the dialogue appear to be coming from the screen so keep the center above or below your screen. In HT, most of the information is coming from the center and not equally spread across the three speaker up front so this shouldn't create a huge problem for you. In fact, I doubt you'll even notice. However, the gains in your effects from spreading out your mains will be substantial.

Hope this helps.

Hey Prefuse,
You're in SD? Just caught a game at Petco. That a NICE ballpark bro! Good to see Hoff back in action (he pitched a 1-2-3 9th).


Hey Topspeed,

I live and work in Berkeley now but I am originally from SD. Haven't seen the new park yet, but watch the games on TV. The Pads finally have some offense!

topspeed
05-05-2004, 10:42 AM
I took some of topspeeds advice... is this what you were referring to? This from center of the couch. Not sure if it is my wiring, or not... or my ear but the right sounds louder than the left.

http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00015.JPG
http://members.cox.net/dbrimberg/PIC00016.JPG

Not exactly...

Obviously, you could leave it like this but with the sound coming at you from different distances as well as different angles, you're going to have to take some time with a test disc and calibrate that sucker (and that still might not help). From your pic it looks like the right speaker is closer to your listening position which could account for the increase in volume over the left channel. It could also be the way the speaker is interacting with your room from the location.

One challenge I see from this positioning is that you're likely to get some weird acoustics because the sound isn't coming at you from the same horizontal plane. Is it possible to put the TV beside the fp with the speakers on either side? It looks like there is enough room.

Good luck

Lord Nikon
05-05-2004, 11:00 AM
Thanks for the opionions and help. I've moved the TV/Stand+Speakers to the last resort; inside the bay window. Ironically, it isn't that bad. The sound is much MUCH better, and the sound is easily heard in all setting positions. Until I am able to go the expensive route (plasma/projection tv) over the fireplace this will have to do. :) If you want pictures, just let me know.

topspeed
05-05-2004, 12:48 PM
Thanks for the opionions and help. I've moved the TV/Stand+Speakers to the last resort; inside the bay window. Ironically, it isn't that bad. The sound is much MUCH better, and the sound is easily heard in all setting positions. Until I am able to go the expensive route (plasma/projection tv) over the fireplace this will have to do. :) If you want pictures, just let me know.
.....

robin_v
05-06-2004, 10:36 AM
I followed the instructions from the user manual from my Ascend Acoustics speakers.

It said to measure from the center between the two mains, out to the center of your listening position. Take that number which is 12.4" for me, and multiply it by 0.73 to find the optimum distance between the two mains. Well, currently my mains are 4 feet apart (I will have to rearrange the entire room if this is insane). The math says they need to be 9 feet apart. So I am guessing my HT system sounds like crap probably due to this? Opinions please!
Once I recovered from the shock of getting divorced, I realised that I was in the enviable position of being able to position my hifi equipment as I pleased (without anyone saying that it doesn't look very nice, in that place.)

I decided to apply some of the theories and discussions from back in the 70's and 80's. I have a rectangular living room and the general concensus of the 70's was that speakers should be positioned against the longest wall. The reason for this, I recall, was because standing waves tend to occur along the longest axis in the room. There is also the added advantage that the farthest you can get from your soundstage is shorter than the other alternative. The closer you can get to your sound stage, the more detail you will hear.

I decided that my listening axis should be along the Golden Mean (Phi). Maybe this decision effected to final outcome of my calculations? Without getting into differential equations, I worked out that the optimal distance between the vertical axiis of my satelites should be approx. 0.92 times the distance from the listener to the wall opposite.

Secondly, the concept of axis is important. This is assuming that the cone-axiis of my dynamic speakers is correct. Using this assumption, the problem becomes two rather than three dimensional. I have afforded myself the luxury of aligning my satelites with the listening position (aimed at my head, if you like.)

The final thing to do is to make sure that the satelites axiis are about 50cm (about 1.64 feet) perpendicular from the wall behind.

Once this is all done, one simply needs to adjust the height of the speaker stands so's the axis of both speakers is aimed at your ears and you have it!

P.S. Phi is the ratio of (SQRT(5.0)-1.0)/2.0 : 1

3db
05-07-2004, 04:19 AM
Ideallt Top Speed had the best solution with the Plasma over the fire place but like you I don't have funds for a plasma right now. My 2nd solution is to do what you have done and placed the TV in the bay window. At least this way, you get better speaker seperation, have room to
put in a center channel, place a sub behind the TV. Glad it worked out for you

skeptic
05-07-2004, 08:51 AM
Your best bet from an audio point of view in this tough room is to place the TV set in the middle of the bay window and the speakers in front and to the sides of the same wall. The best listening will be on a chair in the middle of the room, not the sofa. The diagonal position in the corner for the TV set is extremely difficult for HT audio in this room. Lighting control is also a problem for you. You would do well to consider better window treatments that will allow you flexibility in the control of the amount of outside light entering during the day without blacking out the room. Venetian blinds might be a good start.

By your moniker you seem to have some interest in photography. You can improve both your TV viewing and the results of your photographs which in this posting were awful by understanding the phenomenon of backlighting. Bright light coming through the window is causing the automatic exposure control in the camera to close down making the rest of the photo so underexposed that it is nearly black. Next time, close the shades completely or wait for dark and use artificial lighting or a flash and you will get a much better exposure. You eyes are doing the same thing in the daytime when you watch TV. The light from the window is overwhelming the TV image. In bright sunlight, it can be from 10,000 to 1 million times brighter.

Lord Nikon
05-07-2004, 09:37 AM
I did what skeptic did. I am not a photography buff, nor did I try to take 'amazing pictures'. It was a quick and easy in and out to get some pictures online. I need to move the chair in to the middle of the room, for best positioning but man do things sound sooo much better. :)
I heard someone mention putting the subwoofer behind the tv/stand. Currently it is located in the corner which has the left speaker, if you are facing the tv. Ths is a sub i had from an old system that sucks pretty much. I plan to get a 10" HSU sub in the near future and to upgrade my receiver. Not quite sure how to position a subwoofer either! :) I ordered new, longer wiring so I can run it through the stands and under the carpet. Currently, if my dog wants to look out the bay window, one false move and she would bring those speakers to the ground. :)

skeptic
05-07-2004, 12:53 PM
I have never set up a satellite sub system myself and you will find that when you do, you will have all kinds of new problems. But if I HAD TO, here is what I would do. I would buy two of them. And, I'd put one in each location where your speakers are now. This will give you the best bass and will also reduce or eliminate major interfernece patterns and frequency response swings where the subs cross over to the main speakers. You may want to use the subs instead of stands for supporting your main speakers, put the stands on top of the subs, or get shorter stands or supports and place them with the main speakers on top of the subs.

Good Luck.