Power conditioning

[Mr Peabody]

I am considering some power conditioning. Give me any experience you may have with this. We have products that filter, actually create alternative sign waves. voltage stablization, and isolation. I mainly interested in filtering and isolation from what I know so far. Do these products make a difference? I have been looking at Changlight Speed, PS Audio, Richard Gray Power Co., Transparent and Monster. Monster seems to be the cheapest and claims to do the same thing as the big boys. Some of these companies claim Stablization in a consumer setting is impossible. I've heard some products limit your current flow. I saw a piece by Changlight Speed that claims to handle 3600 watts, that should handle a heavy current draw. What do I need if anything in these products?

Thanks. I'm still learning my way around these forums, please keep that in mind if I don't respond to something right away or do something stupid.

[mtrycraft]

Why are you looking at any of these in the first place? What problems have you measured in your home?

Many claims are made, very few are actually real or even needed. Your audio component is designed to filter and to work within a range of voltage. The only real need I see is where you may have frequent power surges.

[zapr]

I have talked about power conditioning in the speaker forum and described what I learn.I bought a power conditioner by monster and it's the only accessory that really worked.Some of the guys on this forum disagree.Your best to research for yourself.Go to reviews and click others under accessories.You will find power conditioners there and read what others have to say.Or go to monster cable.com and click monster power.All the information is there.

[mtrycraft]

I have talked about power conditioning in the speaker forum and described what I learn.I bought a power conditioner by monster and it's the only accessory that really worked.Some of the guys on this forum disagree.Your best to research for yourself.Go to reviews and click others under accessories.You will find power conditioners there and read what others have to say.Or go to monster cable.com and click monster power.All the information is there.

How has it worked for you? How did you test this?
Why do you think he will learn anything useful from reading the sources you suggested? Monster has a product to sell, hardly unbiased. You really think they would denigrade their own product? Or that their marketeers would be totally unbiased, scientific and factual?
Do you think others have really tested the product in an unbiased manner?

[Mash]

I have a cute DMM that measures frequency. I plug it into a wall socket and watch the line frequency float between 59.9 and 60.1 Hz.

I have experience with larger steam and gas driven AC generators and they produce a very clean output power. Spurious noise picked up in the line should be rare and anyway it should be filtered by the equipment. Perhaps you could connect an ocilliscope which would let you display the entire frequency sprectrum in your house plugs?

I do not think I have seen anything in a power conditioner that justifies $600 and up prices. But then I have never seen an interconnect that was worth $300 and up a pair, but people still buy them.

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

In my experience AC conditioning is very important, and more beneficial than cables in broader applications. I.E. clean A C is important for all systems and the effects more apparrent. I agree that it is preferred to begin with components that respect this fact. And to take those measures one step further by encorporating upgrades at home [when applicable]; dedicated lines.

For some this is not practical, and even if so you may benefit from AC devices like outboard power line conditioners. I've used them for the last 5 years and have realized good results. Though, just like other components they were limited to the devices themselves and as always dependant on many variables. YMMV. I've used 4 different PLCs in my system and all with differing results. The API Power Wedge really didn't improve my system sonically, instead provided surge protection. Each susequent PLC I tried directly benefited the system; PS Audio PowerPlant and Ultimate Outlet and the Shunyata Hydra. I can recommend all three for auditions in your system. I purchased the Hydra and later sampled the two PS Audio products.

As for the benefit. There was less electronic haze, which I found the greatest benefit to reduce the distance between listener and source. It made the artifical nature of playback less apparent. You weren't listening to the medium as much, instead the focus was on the performance, which is a substanial result. Additionally, everything sounded more relaxed [in a natural way] reminecent of analog with less of a digital edge. Soundstage depth was much improved as was the retrievial of information and subtlies of music itself.

MikE

[zapr]

How has it worked for you? How did you test this?
Why do you think he will learn anything useful from reading the sources you suggested? Monster has a product to sell, hardly unbiased. You really think they would denigrade their own product? Or that their marketeers would be totally unbiased, scientific and factual?
Do you think others have really tested the product in an unbiased manner?
Mtrycraft..........The power bar worked very well.My system sounds smoother,tweeters are more liquid,no harshness,bass has tightened up.I can listen to cd,s that I couldn't before.As far as testing this,I took what I iearned on this site and what I read in magazines and took a chance and bought one.It did everything it claimed.As far as being biased,I can only tell what the monster product did for me.There are other brands that will do the same thing.I chose monster because of price.I posted my claims here to help anyone interested........Mtrycraft........You may remember me as zedder from a few years back.

[Harleyx]

I Myself bought 3 different power conditioners, and MUCH TO MY SUPRISE I DISCOVERED...That I helped make the companies rich.
They are CRAP! Plain and simple.
Move some wires, hook your gear up 'smartly'...and you will (as I have) discover you DO NOT need them.

[mtrycraft]

Mtrycraft..........The power bar worked very well.

Great :)

My system sounds smoother,tweeters are more liquid,no harshness,bass has tightened up.I can listen to cd,s that I couldn't before.As far as testing this,I took what I iearned on this site and what I read in magazines and took a chance and bought one.It did everything it claimed.

Seeing that you posted here before, a few years back which I am not remembering :( I am disappointed that you didn't try some bias controls in your testing. :rolleyes:


As far as being biased,I can only tell what the monster product did for me.There are other brands that will do the same thing.I chose monster because of price.I posted my claims here to help anyone interested

OK. And I am challenging those claims so others can see that bias must be controlled for to have some sort of reliability of ones listening for differences. :)

[Mwalsdor_cscc_edu]

Not to sound like a salesmen but unfortunately, my experience is that the cheaper PLCs or power bars did little and only untill I tried the more expensive, albeit later production, PLCs did I realize positive results. But I'm not recommending you buy one, instead I'm comfortable suggesting you upgrade your wall receptical. Typically those are old, with poor connection between the male/female ends. And they are cheap. You can go to most hardware stores and get one. The one I use is a silver-plated, cryo-treated model. I paid $20 for it in a auction and it retails for a few more bucks, I believe. While kind of a odd thing to A/B, I was "blown away" by this simple upgrade. Of course, YMMV but I've spoken with a number of other people that have tried the same outlet and our impressions are very similiar. Daisy-chaining the PS Audio Ultimate Outlet to my PLC [or one PLC to another] brought dramatic results. Though, I'm not convinced it [daisy-chaining] wasn't a artificial additive, which for my sensibilities is a no-no.

Start with quality components that use proper filtering and respect for isolating the analog/digital signal. Outboard power supplies are even better. Then, if applicable, get a dedicated line. Use a electrican that can properly ground the system. Replacing the in-wall wiring is a plus. If not, at least upgrade your outlet and then look into a decent PLC. Then and only then would I start sampling non-captive power cords [again, if applicable]. Proably more than you were bargaining for.

MikE

[Laps]

Recently replaced PS Audio conditioner with the Shunyata Hydra 6 and Shunyata Taipan Alpha power cord. Huge difference! Everything they claim rang true to my ears and my system. Definitely the most dramatic upgrade I've made since adding the Music Fidelity Tri-Vista 21 DAC.

[Mr Peabody]

I had forgotten about this post. I've since borrowed from a dealer some power conditioning to try. I brought home a 6 outlet isolator and cleaner. I thought this would do great things. I also brought home some power cords which I thought would do absolutely nothing. All of this was Transparent. Well to my surprise the isolator had an effect but I didn't like what it done. It seemed to have a negative effect on the sound. However, I was estatic with the results of the power cords. As Laps said, it was a welcomed dramatic upgrade, the background was quieter and everything sounded more natural. I put one on every piece of equipment that would allow the upgrade. The largest leap of improvement was noticed when I put one on my phono preamp, amazing. I can't explain why it works but it definitely did for me.

I am surprised you noticed a difference between PS Audio and Shunyata, I haven't used either but I think of PS Audio as the pioneers and fore runners of this technology. I have heard results may vary from brand to brand depending on your particular power company, how the house is wired, what interference is around etc. Some brands deal with certain problems better than others.

[skeptic]

Mr. Peabody, in your first post on this thread you wrote;

"We have products that filter, actually create alternative sign waves. voltage stablization, and isolation."

Are you in this business?

I can see where light dimmers are a horrible nuissance in a home sound system. And I can see the need for filtering out the noise they induce in a home's power distribution system. However, before I bought a power conditioner, I'd like to know what's in it and what it will do. Too much of this audiophile hardware is all advertising and no technology. I have never heard one technically savy person who did not sell audiophile equipment give a credible explanation of how a line cord could improve the performance of a sound system. I have seen line cords which were dangerous and others which were clearly NEC code violations. If I thought I needed a power conditioner, I'd look to Sola for one designed around a voltage stabalizer transformer. I'd also consider a full blown UPS from companies such as Exide Powerware, Liebert, MGE, and Sola. I'd shop at an electrical equipment supply house, not an audio equipment store. I would not waste my time or money on audiophile grade products. If they offer any benefit at all, they cost far more than comparable products from manufacturers I respect.

[Mr Peabody]

I read the spill on Transparent, about the antenna effect on different lengths of wire and the need for networks, about the different interferences on "dirty" AC. I was very skeptical and it took me a long time to even be interested. I eventually tried it and after hearing the effect the power cords had on each piece of equipment, it was some of the best money I invested, if you can call it an investment. What do you call it when you blow money on pure pleasure?

[skeptic]

I just read it too. It sounds like pure bull to me. I did not see even one specification related to noise surpression on their web site. BTW, the small capacitor across the line most audio equipment uses to surpress turn-on thumps should also surpress rf noise. Considering that it is difficult enough to get an rf signal into an antenna in the microvolt range, how could this amount of noise affect a 120 volt power waveform over one million times stronger? How does it do attenuating noise from incandescent light dimmers? Now there's a test for a real problem you can objectively measure by checking the noise with no audio signal input. How many db of surpression at the audio output and what frequencies does it surpress over the line cord supplied by the manufacturer?

[mtrycraft]

I just read it too. It sounds like pure bull to me. I did not see even one specification related to noise surpression on their web site. BTW, the small capacitor across the line most audio equipment uses to surpress turn-on thumps should also surpress rf noise. Considering that it is difficult enough to get an rf signal into an antenna in the microvolt range, how could this amount of noise affect a 120 volt power waveform over one million times stronger? How does it do attenuating noise from incandescent light dimmers? Now there's a test for a real problem you can objectively measure by checking the noise with no audio signal input. How many db of surpression at the audio output and what frequencies does it surpress over the line cord supplied by the manufacturer?


They live here :)

http://chixlinx.homestead.com/files/sounds/Themes/theme_twilightzone02.wav

[E-Stat]

I was very skeptical and it took me a long time to even be interested. I eventually tried it and after hearing the effect the power cords had on each piece of equipment, it was some of the best money I invested, if you can call it an investment. What do you call it when you blow money on pure pleasure?
As was I when I first experimented with aftermarket power cords. There is a definite improvement in my system (if not with Mtry's boombox) especially with sources. I do, however, use a Monster conditioner with my turntable. It drops the audible noise in my MC based phono system.

rw

[Thomas_A]

As I've posted before,

some measurements of a power surge protector/AC noise filter:

http://hem.bredband.net/b113928/Surgefilter.htm

It reduces AC transients, but introduce noise. The noise CREATED by the AC filter was also confirmed in a completely different setup. Computer was not connected to the AC mains during measurements (battery). One user reported that the specific AC filter also caused his amplifier to go frequently in protection mode, and occassionaly break. This phenomenon was also noted by me with one power amp. By removing the filter, the amps worked normally again. The manufacturer did not find anything wrong with the filter. Some users have their amps (and speaker) gone up in smoke, but it could not be verified whether it was the filter that caused it.

Conclusion: AC noise filters may not do what they suppose to do, despite the claims.

[Mr Peabody]

Let's keep in mind that there are many types of "power conditioning". You have aftermarket power cords, which the concensus seems to be that they do improve sound, you have outlet type devices that either filter, isolate or both and then you have power regulation. Power regulation is where the most problems occur, the type that allows frequency adjusting can do damage to your turntable. Also if you have a powerful amp some of the devices can limit the current which would cause poor performance at a minimum. I can't remember where I read it but those power stablizers are just another type of power amp and I have been told in order for one to work properly or as stated it would be too massive to have in one's house. You have to do your research and be sure you are matching your equipment, just like any other component. I have benefited from upgrading my power cords and I certainly wouldn't condemn the whole class of products.

Skeptic, Transparent's explanation of antenna effect is for speaker and interconnects where the signal is not so powerful. They don't use any networks, that I'm aware of, in the power cords. I notice that most high end phono stages are battery driven to prevent AC interference. I'm sure some specs and regulation wouldn't hurt on these products as any other product.

[skeptic]

"You have aftermarket power cords, which the concensus seems to be that they do improve sound, you have outlet type devices that either filter, isolate or both "

The consensus at least among electrical engineers is that insofar as these expensive power cords and receptacles are concerned they do absolutely nothing of any value their 89 cent counterparts don't do just as well. The consensus is that the whole thing is a ripoff and anyone who says they hear an improvement is either being duped or is lying. That's what the consensus says.

"Power regulation is where the most problems occur"

You got it backwards Mr. Peabody. Power regulation is where the problem is solved. And while it isn't cheap or simple, it's effective. It consists of transformers, capacitors, rectifiers, zener diodes, transistors, and in the case of UPSs batteries and inverters. When properly designed and assembled, that solves virtually all power problems. Power cords and receptacles solve NONE!

"I can't remember where I read it but those power stablizers are just another type of power amp and I have been told in order for one to work properly or as stated it would be too massive to have in one's house."

Wherever you read it, you read it wrong.

"Skeptic, Transparent's explanation of antenna effect is for speaker and interconnects where the signal is not so powerful."

You want to know how much rf is getting into your speaker cable and the extent of the problem it's causing, turn off your amplifier and put your ear up to the speaker. That's the extent of it.

I can shield ANY interconnect cable from rf noise with fifteen cents worth of aluminum foil and five cents worth of bare wire. I don't need $350 interconnect cables. And that's exactly what I do with my phono cables and that's exactly what I did when I lived on the infield of WTFM 6 blocks away from the transmitter. If there is rf noise getting into a sound system, the most likely cause is through direct radiation into the high gain phono preamp stage and requires the preamp to be better shielded. I had that problem too and solved it long before anybody ever dreamt someone would actually pay big money for worthless power, speaker, and interconnect cables.

Mr. Peabody, you're out of your depth.

[Mr Peabody]

I thought it was electrical engineers that designed these products. My bad. Nonetheless, my ears tell me the replacement of my stock power cords was well worth the money.

I'm just sharing what I've heard and read, I never claimed to be an expert on the stuff. However, what you say is the opposite of EVERYTHING I've ever read about power conditioning. You should go back and read my post more carefully. When I mentioned regulation it was in reference to changing frequency of the AC and the impossibility of actually regulating your AC out of the outlet to a constant voltage. Yes, there are many who say they can do it and maybe so for small receivers or computers but to my understanding to regulate a constant voltage for a large amp like Krell or Levinson, and provide the current required the regulating unit would be extremely huge. If this is wrong, show me, I'm not saying this is in stone somewhere.

[mtrycraft]

You have aftermarket power cords, which the concensus seems to be that they do improve sound,

Yep, there is consensus about psychics when you sample the right group of people.


Power regulation is where the most problems occur, the type that allows frequency adjusting can do damage to your turntable.

How much frequency variation? All it will do is not have it track at the exact speed. Buy CD, no such problems.

Also if you have a powerful amp some of the devices can limit the current which would cause poor performance at a minimum.

But I thought that is why you have those huge caps in the amp to take up the slack at those times of need?

I have benefited from upgrading my power cords and I certainly wouldn't condemn the whole class of products.

I am glad you benefited by them. Enjoy.
I certainly can condemn the whole class of products, not to worry.

Skeptic, Transparent's explanation of antenna effect is for speaker and interconnects where the signal is not so powerful.

Of course it is their explanation. How else would they convince the gullible customer, real facts?

[mtrycraft]

I thought it was electrical engineers that designed these products. My bad. Nonetheless, my ears tell me the replacement of my stock power cords was well worth the money.

I am sure it was your brain that gave you the information, not your ears sending the necessary signals to it.

[E-Stat]

The consensus at least among electrical engineers is that insofar as these expensive power cords and receptacles are concerned they do absolutely nothing of any value their 89 cent counterparts don't do just as well. The consensus is that the whole thing is a ripoff and anyone who says they hear an improvement is either being duped or is lying. That's what the consensus says.

Or at least the consensus of those who rely upon theory alone vs. experience with audio gear. Telephone and computer systems are not necessarily the same. Admittedly, the audio engineers I've met who acknowledge the benefit were all quite surprised themselves upon first listening. They shouldn't have an audible effect. And they were the engineers who design the source components or the amplifiers whose sound is improved by certain of them. These are not poorly designed components at all.

JWC brought a new Soaring Audio digital amp over to the house a couple of weeks back along with a Kimber Palladian power cord. We listened to the amp for some time using a range of material then switched cords to a JPS Labs AC+. The difference in clarity was immediately recognizable. We switched back a couple of times and got the same improvement. FWIW, the Palladians are 9 gauge and the JPS Labs, 8. Unfortunately, cords are highly system and component sensitive. What cord works best with one component doesn't necessarily work best with another. Digital amps may be more sensitive than others. I've asked him to bring over a pair of Palladians to audition in my system at a future date. As they are kinda pricey, I'm hoping I cannot hear the same improvement with my tube amps. :)

rw

[skeptic]

Has it ever occurred to you that it wasn't that the JPS AC+ was so good but that the Kimber Palladian was so bad? How about trying 12 gage lamp cord and see if that changes anything?

To anyone who actually believes this dribble I offer the following advice; get some of the same wire you home is wired with, Romex or BX and make a cord out of that. Then hard wire it through a disconnect switch. There, for a few dollars worth of electrical hardware, you have beaten ANYTHING the marketing guys can come up with in the way of power cords, receptacles, and IEC connectors. And if you can find a tie in point a few feet close than the outlet you would have used, you have effectively eliminated the role any power cord would play even theoretically. But don't be surprised if it doesn't help one damned bit. It just won't. BTW, if the Soaring Audio amp works so much better with the JPS cord, why didin't they include it as part of the amp? Wouldn't the manufacurer of the amplifier know best which cord to use especially if "digital amplifiers" are so sensitive?

[mtrycraft]

BTW, if the Soaring Audio amp works so much better with the JPS cord, why didin't they include it as part of the amp?

It only works better in that home with that set up with those brains interpreting the perceived sound :) Will be different every time. Maybe even on a different day. Or, under DBT protocol?

Wouldn't the manufacurer of the amplifier know best which cord to use especially if "digital amplifiers" are so sensitive?

You expect a designer to be that smart and know about power cables too? That can onlyt be done by the end user, a golden ear. What's the matter with you :D

[Mr Peabody]

I respect your opinion, however, I would respect it even more if you had actually tried some of these products and would be speaking from experience rather than speculation. Your reservations should be weighed by others as well as our testimony of merit. Like most things in audio, one has to make up their own mind by hopefully doing hands, or ears, on evaluation as to the benefit to them.

When I switched my power cords the sound improvement was so obvious that my daughter noticed it and she had no idea what I had even done. She was bugging me about something while I was listening and left to later return after I switched the cords. She asked me why the disc sounded better to her now than it had earlier. I was already happy with what I heard after the switch but it was very reassuring to have a comment from someone who was totally unaware of what was going on. That's even better than a DBT.

[E-Stat]

Has it ever occurred to you that it wasn't that the JPS AC+ was so good but that the Kimber Palladian was so bad? How about trying 12 gage lamp cord and see if that changes anything?
Upon reflection, I seem to have misled everyone. It was the Palladian that was markedly better than the JPS Labs with this amplifier. Is the JPS Labs cord bad? That is a relative statement. It is better than the generic 16 gauge cord that was originally supplied.


To anyone who actually believes this dribble I offer the following advice...
Maybe one of these days you might actually test your theories with actual experience with these products. You may be surprised once you get beyond your preconceptions. If, after direct experience, you truly cannot hear the difference, then so be it.


BTW, if the Soaring Audio amp works so much better with the JPS cord, why didin't they include it as part of the amp? Wouldn't the manufacurer of the amplifier know best which cord to use especially if "digital amplifiers" are so sensitive?
As I mentioned, the comments regarding digital amplifiers was speculation on my part. I have heard that tube amps are less sensitive to cords aside from current requirements. As for the first question, I addressed that very question during conversations to Luke Manley of VTL, Jud Barber of Joule Electra and via email with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT Audio. Their answers were essentially the same. My GamuT CD-1 was shipped without a cord altogether although a generic one is provided upon request. Jud told me over dinner that while his amps don't "require" an aftermarket cord, he has found benefit with using some (he prefers the Elrods). Luke said he supplies a generic 16 gauge cord but has likewise found improvements with different power cords but leaves that choice to the client. I don't see that as any different a question as "why don't amplifier manufacturers provide an interconnect?"

rw

[mtrycraft]

Upon reflection, I seem to have misled everyone. It was the Palladian that was markedly better than the JPS Labs with this amplifier. Is the JPS Labs cord bad? That is a relative statement. It is better than the generic 16 gauge cord that was originally supplied.

Maybe one of these days you might actually test your theories with actual experience with these products. You may be surprised once you get beyond your preconceptions. If, after direct experience, you truly cannot hear the difference, then so be it.


As I mentioned, the comments regarding digital amplifiers was speculation on my part. I have heard that tube amps are less sensitive to cords aside from current requirements. As for the first question, I addressed that very question during conversations to Luke Manley of VTL, Jud Barber of Joule Electra and via email with Ole Lund Christensen (formerly) of GamuT Audio. Their answers were essentially the same. My GamuT CD-1 was shipped without a cord altogether although a generic one is provided upon request. Jud told me over dinner that while his amps don't "require" an aftermarket cord, he has found benefit with using some (he prefers the Elrods). Luke said he supplies a generic 16 gauge cord but has likewise found improvements with different power cords but leaves that choice to the client. I don't see that as any different a question as "why don't amplifier manufacturers provide an interconnect?"

rw

Maybe one day you will sit down to a DBT and see how golden your ears really are. But the outcome is most predictable by now.

[The Grudge]

skeptic, your points seem well based and sound, but you could be a little less rude when referring to others thoughts and perceptions. Regardless if you agree with them or not, you shouldn't chide people like school children, make your points and don't attack people on a personal level, it takes away from your excellent points.

:)

[shokhead]

Its hard on him when his head is ready to blow up with information.

[BRANDONH]

In my experience AC conditioning is very important, and more beneficial than cables in broader applications. I.E. clean A C is important for all systems and the effects more apparrent. I agree that it is preferred to begin with components that respect this fact. And to take those measures one step further by encorporating upgrades at home [when applicable]; dedicated lines.

For some this is not practical, and even if so you may benefit from AC devices like outboard power line conditioners. I've used them for the last 5 years and have realized good results. Though, just like other components they were limited to the devices themselves and as always dependant on many variables. YMMV. I've used 4 different PLCs in my system and all with differing results. The API Power Wedge really didn't improve my system sonically, instead provided surge protection. Each susequent PLC I tried directly benefited the system; PS Audio PowerPlant and Ultimate Outlet and the Shunyata Hydra. I can recommend all three for auditions in your system. I purchased the Hydra and later sampled the two PS Audio products.

As for the benefit. There was less electronic haze, which I found the greatest benefit to reduce the distance between listener and source. It made the artifical nature of playback less apparent. You weren't listening to the medium as much, instead the focus was on the performance, which is a substanial result. Additionally, everything sounded more relaxed [in a natural way] reminecent of analog with less of a digital edge. Soundstage depth was much improved as was the retrievial of information and subtlies of music itself.

MikE

I see you mention PS Audio
I am really thinking on getting this one
PS AUDIO - P1000 (http://www.amusicdirect.com/products/detail.asp?sku=APSP1000)
http://www.amusicdirect.com/images/APS/APSP1000.jpg

Any thoughts on this unit?