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nusiclover
05-01-2004, 09:25 PM
the answer is a positive YES

recently i posted how interconnects made a difference. Tara Labs 5500i sounded more mellow and more agreable than monster THX (with music).

But now ive compared tara labs speaker cables (14awg) with Carol Superflex 12awg bought at home depot. I swear by this, cables make 110% difference for sure. There is no question, i gave them a very fair trial (to the point that i wanted HD to be the same! talk about bias i wanted them so much to be so the same that i went out of my way to do the trade!!) and the are not. As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference. So, I will now look into higher quality (which of course comes with a bigger pirece tag) speaker cables. After all, i did spend a few grand on my system. Sorry to everyone that really thinks speaker cables make no audible difference - because they do! I swear by this too. So does my girlfriend to the point that not only did both of us say that Tara was better, but we both gave the same sound qualities that were different.

Again, sorry to all you non-believers because i really wanted to believe that there was no audible difference between speaker cables. Unfortunately (financially), there is.

Thomas_A
05-02-2004, 02:06 AM
You are 110% sure?!

Nobody has ever shown that loudspeakercables of reasonable construction is audbile different from 12 AWG cable. From your description there is nothing that support your "110%". To do confidence testing you need to make a blind test. With the help of some friends and random trial. If you can pick correct cable 20/20 then you are close to 100% confidence.

You have shown nothing of this, and thus you claim that there are audible differences, is just something many claim but nobody has ever been able to prove during ≈ 30 years of cable debate.

T

skeptic
05-02-2004, 03:20 AM
Another walking talking advertisement for the cottage audio cable industry. How do I know you are not a shill? OK, I'll play your game. Let's assume you're not.

"do speaker cables make a difference???
the answer is a positive YES"

"now ive compared tara labs speaker cables (14awg) with Carol Superflex 12awg bought at home depot. I swear by this, cables make 110% difference for sure. There is no question, i gave them a very fair trial"

You'd be the first one to ever do that. Did you give them an independently conducted DBT or did you just connect them and decided they sounded better than the other cables. What YOU call fair, people who really want to get at the truth would call a joke.

"So does my girlfriend to the point that not only did both of us say that Tara was better, but we both gave the same sound qualities that were different."

If you are telling us the truth about your girlfriend, it is probably what I have concluded all along and that is that women will say ANYTHING and have learned a long time ago to just AGREE with their audio geek boyfriends and husbands to just get them to shut up about this topic which is the ultimately boring subject for them.

"I will now look into higher quality (which of course comes with a bigger pirece tag) speaker cables. After all, i did spend a few grand on my system. "

Exactly what the cable industry is hoping for. Once you get caught up in this way of thinking, they've got you. Now there is no limit to what you will ultimately spend on cables because right, wrong, or otherwise, you took the bait and are firmly on their hook.

So the great cable farce goes on.

pctower
05-02-2004, 08:34 AM
God love people and the web! Two extremes, each shouting past the other, each carrying on a glorious tradition that now spans decades:

"As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference."
_____________________

"So the great cable farce goes on."
_____________________

Only now the whole world gets to "enjoy" this perpetual shouting match.

Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?

I guess we'd never run across such a person on the Internet. He'd be too busy listening to and enjoying his system to waste his and everyone else's time.

BTW, does all this "hot air" contribute to global warming?

skeptic
05-02-2004, 08:37 AM
I would think that sitting on a fence would get rather painful after awhile.

pctower
05-02-2004, 11:12 AM
I would think that sitting on a fence would get rather painful after awhile.

Not at all. What's painful is watching so many people make wild and foolish statements.

I dare say that my platform on the fence that divides the two opposing religious camps in the wire crusades is far cleaner and more solid than the slipery pig slop in which the dogmatists of both persuasions choose to wallow.

skeptic
05-02-2004, 11:36 AM
Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.

RGA
05-02-2004, 02:47 PM
Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.

If you're not on the fence you're wrong. Fact = no one has proven an audible difference with DBT's --- FACT = DBTs are not the answer in psychological testing. Therefore, both sides will never solve the issue because both sides do not understand psychological testing or validity. One side uses no science to back up their claim and the other side uses science ineptly to discredit the other. A DBT in its very definition cannot prove A=B no matter how they want to weasal around it that is a fact.

Thus you better be on the fence.

E-Stat
05-02-2004, 03:40 PM
You'd be the first one to ever do that. Did you give them an independently conducted DBT or did you just connect them and decided they sounded better than the other cables.
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.

rw

skeptic
05-02-2004, 06:54 PM
And you have the same tired old "I can hear it but I can't prove it" and "what do you expect from that mid fi junk you listen to?" Seems like you haven't give up either.

weez82
05-02-2004, 09:35 PM
I worked for an audio shop for a month and I can tell you that the differance between a $15 cable and a $80 is the $15 cable makes about $1 commission and the $80 cable makes $9. Cables are marked up about 50-60%. The cable industry just wants your money, I mean the $80 cable must sound better then the $15 cable, it cost more and looks better, right?

Thomas_A
05-02-2004, 10:03 PM
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.

rw

Pure speculation.

T

nusiclover
05-02-2004, 11:39 PM
first of all, my girlfriend is sitting right by my side. she actually likes stereo stuff almost as much as i do. in fact, she was the one that bought the more expensive cables, and i found a way to save her money by going with Home Depot 12awg. Without question, she was delighted at being able to save over $150 (after all, this means more shoes for her! {women have their weak points as well})
Anyway, i hoocked up the HD cables and i wanted them to work, i was very happy to have saved my girlfriend (which according to all of you should give a rats ass about stereo stuff to begin with) some money. She was very happy to do this. And then i said "honey come listen to the new speaker cable" and she flat out hated them. It made me qustion, bevcause for a moment i was psychologically overwhelnmed with wanting the HD to perform just as equal so that i could save her money which was my personal ultimate goal (wanna talk freudian here? ive read a book or two too). But she didnt like the system anymore. She said it was sounding like a car stereo(hopefully exagerrating) that it lacked soundstage and was very shrill sounding with no depth at all. Words from my girlfriend, words from the one true person that i even thought knew nothing about audiophile lifestyles! She said it, not me. And from under my dark corner i gasped, saying: sweetie, thats what i feel about these cables too! "Cables? cables?" she askied, "i thought you were playing best buy speakers just to trick me".
Guys, hear me now. there was no trick. all that was done is Home Depot cables were used in place of Tara Labs. Thats it. And she heard a difference so fast that she thought it was an entirely new system...really after this, how can you tell me there is no difference.

On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.

im not saying cables will make such an apparant difference in your system, what i am saying is that cables made all the difference in a hi-fi system. if you cannot hear this still, no worries, save yourself the extra bucks. be happy- thats what should be learned here. be happy and accept that sometimes, some people will hear a big audible difference between cable manufacturers, perhaps just not you. (dont forget for a moment that i was comparing 35c/foot cables with $10/foot cables.) you wouldnt want to drive a mercedes clk with honda civic tires would you? or do you not think there is a difference?

Thomas_A
05-02-2004, 11:54 PM
first of all, my girlfriend is sitting right by my side. she actually likes stereo stuff almost as much as i do. in fact, she was the one that bought the more expensive cables, and i found a way to save her money by going with Home Depot 12awg. Without question, she was delighted at being able to save over $150 (after all, this means more shoes for her! {women have their weak points as well})
Anyway, i hoocked up the HD cables and i wanted them to work, i was very happy to have saved my girlfriend (which according to all of you should give a rats ass about stereo stuff to begin with) some money. She was very happy to do this. And then i said "honey come listen to the new speaker cable" and she flat out hated them. It made me qustion, bevcause for a moment i was psychologically overwhelnmed with wanting the HD to perform just as equal so that i could save her money which was my personal ultimate goal (wanna talk freudian here? ive read a book or two too). But she didnt like the system anymore. She said it was sounding like a car stereo(hopefully exagerrating) that it lacked soundstage and was very shrill sounding with no depth at all. Words from my girlfriend, words from the one true person that i even thought knew nothing about audiophile lifestyles! She said it, not me. And from under my dark corner i gasped, saying: sweetie, thats what i feel about these cables too! "Cables? cables?" she askied, "i thought you were playing best buy speakers just to trick me".
Guys, hear me now. there was no trick. all that was done is Home Depot cables were used in place of Tara Labs. Thats it. And she heard a difference so fast that she thought it was an entirely new system...really after this, how can you tell me there is no difference.

On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.

im not saying cables will make such an apparant difference in your system, what i am saying is that cables made all the difference in a hi-fi system. if you cannot hear this still, no worries, save yourself the extra bucks. be happy- thats what should be learned here. be happy and accept that sometimes, some people will hear a big audible difference between cable manufacturers, perhaps just not you. (dont forget for a moment that i was comparing 35c/foot cables with $10/foot cables.) you wouldnt want to drive a mercedes clk with honda civic tires would you? or do you not think there is a difference?


And there has been tests using Transparents top-of-the line cable vs Supra Ply 12 AWG cable with people of the "cable believer" side. No difference.

There have been tests using a top-notch speaker system, able to reproduce a perfect square-wave, ±1 dB at listening position, and extremely low distortion. No audible differences between cables.

What I can suspect, is that poor HiFi systems might benefit with good cables since poor equipment might be sensitive to cable impedance.

T

T

E-Stat
05-03-2004, 03:53 AM
And you have the same tired old "I can hear it but I can't prove it" and "what do you expect from that mid fi junk you listen to?" Seems like you haven't give up either.
The difference is that I qualify my comments with respect to the system involved. You make unsupported blanket claims. Which is indeed valid for the majority of folks asking what cable they should use with their Onkyo receiver.

rw

E-Stat
05-03-2004, 03:57 AM
And there has been tests using Transparents top-of-the line cable vs Supra Ply 12 AWG cable with people of the "cable believer" side. No difference.

There have been tests using a top-notch speaker system, able to reproduce a perfect square-wave, ±1 dB at listening position, and extremely low distortion. No audible differences between cables.

Please provide details. What is a "top notch" speaker to you? Much less the rest of the reproduction chain.

rw

Thomas_A
05-03-2004, 04:25 AM
See

http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm

This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.

It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.

This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.

For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.

Thomas

E-Stat
05-03-2004, 04:52 AM
See

http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm

This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.

It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.

This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.

For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.

Thomas
Very interesting article and unlike most reports here, actually spoke of test procedure and most of the equipment used. I do have a couple of questions. Speaking of wire, what interconnects and speaker wire was used? I don't want to pick on listener 1, but was he familiar with the "drum recording" prior to the test? I have a very nice Sheffield direct to disk drum recording, but I confess my sensitivity to small differences is better revealed with more complex material having voice or symphonic instruments. Were any other recordings used? I guess since two folks were 100% accurate, there was no need to with this CDP audibility test.

rw

pctower
05-03-2004, 05:23 AM
Everytime you sit on your fence you get shot at from both sides. Each side figures you are really on the other side. You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out. Generally, in a war, neutrals have a tendency to duck a lot. It's their way of surviving.

"You make statements which you think will provoke discussion and it only gets people angry at you. I'd have thought that by now you would have figured that out."

Just like everyone else, I make statements that describe my position. If people get angry at me, that's their problem. Anger is not healthy.

That's what I've figured out.

Thomas_A
05-03-2004, 05:31 AM
Since I was the person with two errors, I would say that I listened so much that I got tired of the sound. It is not easy to conduct an A-B test, I would have preferred an ABX test so that I could have compared the sound more easily. The faulty errors could have been due to mistakes.

I was neither familiar with the equipment, the drum recording or the sound of the CD player before the test. The other two persons work at this studio, and they have this CD player there as a transport for a DAC. So they have listened much more to this CD player than me.

The cables in the system is 4x.15 mm2 EKK solid core copper, I believe. The interconnects are RG62 or similar low-capacitance cable.

Speaking of difference, numerous tests have been made which showed that very sharp transients (like hitting on the "border" of the drum) is very revealing. Also electronic music with low bass content (≈10 Hz).

We tested several music CDs before we chose the specific drum section. The very big task before every test is to listen and find the part which is most revealing. Complex music should be "music difficult to reproduce by the equipment" which often turns out to be very dynamic, sharp transients and low bass content.

Thomas

E-Stat
05-03-2004, 05:55 AM
Since I was the person with two errors, I would say that I listened so much that I got tired of the sound.
:)


I was neither familiar with the equipment, the drum recording or the sound of the CD player before the test.
You might want to try some familiar material next time. Music that you know well enough to play back in your head.



Speaking of difference, numerous tests have been made which showed that very sharp transients (like hitting on the "border" of the drum) is very revealing.
I guess it depends upon what music you favor. I, too, would get bored if all I heard repetitively was someone whacking a rim shot. Now I understand your first answer! I would much rather hear the intonation of a female voice or the complex harmonic structure of stringed or woodwind instruments. To hear the instruments reproduced in their space. As for electronic music, there are a couple of pieces I use. The intro to "Dido's" Honestly Ok band on the No Angel album contains a tasty little synthesized water droplet sound starting at 34 seconds repeating about a dozen times every two or three seconds. Or on the Oxygene 8 cut of Jean-Michel Jarre's Oxygene 7-13 album, there is a percussive "clicking" conterpart to the main melody that contains a rather complex envelope.

rw

Thomas_A
05-03-2004, 06:39 AM
Comparing it to most other systems, the Ino Audio system is very revealing. Both recording engineers and those music artists that have been working in this teaching studio "Studio Blue" claim it is one of the better sounding studios in the world. So I would say it's a top-notch system. Still, no audible difference between cables have been reported. So, who would I trust? Blind tests made in top-notch systems with very experienced listeners? Or casual reports presented on internet forums made with no internal/external controls, not blinded, no statistics? For me the answer is very easy.

http://www.studioblue.se/

It's in Swedish, unfortunately.


T

E-Stat
05-03-2004, 06:48 AM
So, who would I trust? Blind tests made in top-notch systems with very experienced listeners? Or casual reports presented on internet forums made with no internal/external controls, not blinded, no statistics? For me the answer is very easy.
If the assertions were only made by individuals on internet forums, then I would agree with you. I do trust (and know some of) the audio press and the hearing of manufacturers of components who claim their product sounds more lifelike using other (completely unrelated) company's better cables. They have nothing to prove. Finally, I trust my own hearing in A/B testing. You might match the hearing acuity of your fellow listeners 2 & 3 if you were to use familiar systems and musical content.

I will agree, however, that I hear more differences among interconnects than speaker cables and the latter are likely far more system dependent. My vacuum tube power amp driving electrostatic speakers situaion is particularly challenging.

rw

Resident Loser
05-03-2004, 08:36 AM
...I've tried not using wires and the results were quite disappointing...

Question: Anybody know the difference between wire and cable?

Didn't think so...

A local stereo/HT retailer/system installer, with many locations and many years in business, no longer sells Tara et al...they sell and use Monster exclusively...they used to sell 'em...seems curious to me...

Contrary to the popular myth propagated by some re: the quality level of any given system required to realize any benefit from use of the more esoteric wiring, Monster(in it's literature) says "...smaller speakers and lower power amplifiers..." will see significant improvement...hmmm...curiouser and curiouser...

"...110%..."? Not much diff, statistically...and how did you arrive at this number? Slightly wider sound stage? Ten percent more "inner details"? Grand piano sound like it had 8.8 more keys? Could be mood, volume levels, that extra glass of wine...the girlfriend? Have you ever been told what the other person thought you wanted to hear?

jimHJJ(...more importantly, have you ever told yourself what you wanted to hear?...)

RGA
05-03-2004, 08:54 AM
See

http://www.jrsaudio.se/dbtoncdplayers.htm

This is a test which we made on request to show audible difference between CD players, discussion started at Audioreview a few years ago. One person from Audioreview was invited from the US and should have participated in the test, but he did not show up. John Stalberg is no longer working at the Studio.

It is not a perfect test, but with all blind numerous blind tests with positive outcome made I would say that the data is pretty solid.

This is for CD players and many other tests have been made with positive outcome. Many tests are made also for power amps. In a later test, the Halcro dm58 showed to be non-transparent using the ordinary inputs of the amp. The NAD208 is transparent up to 250W. The Rotel RB1080/1090 has also been shown to be transparent.

For cables, there have been no positive outcome (i.e. difference) as long as the cables are reasonably constructed. For poor cables with "built-in" filters, that might be another story, but such cables are not interesting for the Swedish Audio Technical Society.

Thomas

Hi Fi CHoice magazines reviews and has been reviewing for over a decade in a panel of listeners blind and levels matched. It is not a DBT because differences are assumed so the panelists simply sit and review what they like and or dislike about componant A, B, C, D E etc.

Interestingly Hi-Fi Choice has had owners from companies who were members of the panel and sometimes they didn't even choose their own product as best in the shootouts. Interestingly they manage to rate certain products(CD players cables etc) a 2 star versus others at 5 stars - and they measure the equipment as well. They even comment that some DACs because of their output give them a big advantage in a non level matched situation so be careful.

Fact = any manufacturer CAN deliberately alter the sound of a cable or cd player to sound different than the rest -- since that is so they can also make it sound more pleasing to the ear(or some people's ears). It is in their best interest to make it sound different so they can stand apart from the rest. Once this is established if a test cannot tell a difference you need another test.

Cable claims I'm wary of because the mark-up is totally ridiculous. A dealer here makes more profit on a $60.00 cable than a $600.00 Television - which would you rather sell. Cables take up less space in the store. And the difference at best is going to generally be subtle - if it is Night and Day then the cable has altered the frequency to such a degree it would probably be best avoided.

skeptic
05-04-2004, 03:36 AM
"Fact = any manufacturer CAN deliberately alter the sound of a cable or cd player to sound different than the rest -- since that is so they can also make it sound more pleasing to the ear(or some people's ears). It is in their best interest to make it sound different so they can stand apart from the rest. Once this is established if a test cannot tell a difference you need another test."

Manufacturers can change the resistance, capacitance, and inductance per unit length of a cable by changing its geometry and materials of construction. If this has any effect at all on the sound of the equipment it is connected to, that effect is unpredictable and uncontrollable. That is because it depends on the paramaters of the equipment so it is conceivable although not necessarily proven that a particular cable would affect the sound of one sound system one way and another differently or not at all. And it would obtain this effect by changing the overall frequency response. This method if it works at all is without doubt, the dumbest way to make such a change. It is ineffecient, unpredictable, uncontrollable, and very expensive IF it even works. Frequency response that deviates from "flat" is what is termed linear distortion and is correctable and controllable predictably and inexpensively by using equalization. Every professional sound engineer knows this, uses it as one of his primary tools in his bag of tricks, and you will therefore rarely if ever find a professionally installed sound system which does not incorporate at least one equalizer. You say you don't like equalization because it creates distortion? Argue with the guy who built the mixing board your precious vinyl recordings were made on, the guy who built the recording studio, and the guy who tweaked the knobs and dials on that console to get you the sound you like so much. You can also argue with the guy who invented the LP and found that if he didn't equalize the signal being fed to the cutting head, he could never get the signal on the record. Of course it had to be equalized on playback and that's in your preamplifier. Let's not forget about the guy who builds tape recorders including the ones the recording was made on and the one it was mixed down on. Both used massive equalization on both recording and playback to get the signal on the tape (except for those rare direct to disc recordings which could not be edited at all.) And then there's DOLBY. For those who cringe at the very thought of equalization, this is a nightmare. Professional Dolby "A" has four different bands of equalization and not only that, they are not static like the others, they are dynamic. The degree of equalization depends on the level of the signal going on to the tape and coming off off it changing from instant to instant. Heaven help you if it was not properly calibrated.

Can't use an equalizer because you can't adjust it? Too bad. I've found calibrated microphones and spectrum analyzers that are normally supplied for home systems useless for this purpose. It takes a musically trained and acute ear and a lot of patience to get it to sound close to flat. But that should be no problem for people who can hear the difference between one cable and another and take the time and trouble to listen to so many of them to pick out just the right one for their sound system. Of course if you can't successfully adjust an equalizer, maybe your hearing or your acoustic memory isn't quite as good as you think it is.

jackz4000
05-04-2004, 03:14 PM
A clear and lucid post. There is too much emphasis placed on cables in this "cable war". There are many other aspects in sound recreation far more important than mere cables. I would think one would want to recreate at home that which has been created in the studio and at the mastering console. Cables??? Just room acoustics alone will be more important to sound than....cables. Enuf.

Thomas_A
05-04-2004, 03:24 PM
If the assertions were only made by individuals on internet forums, then I would agree with you. I do trust (and know some of) the audio press and the hearing of manufacturers of components who claim their product sounds more lifelike using other (completely unrelated) company's better cables. They have nothing to prove. Finally, I trust my own hearing in A/B testing. You might match the hearing acuity of your fellow listeners 2 & 3 if you were to use familiar systems and musical content.

I will agree, however, that I hear more differences among interconnects than speaker cables and the latter are likely far more system dependent. My vacuum tube power amp driving electrostatic speakers situaion is particularly challenging.

rw

Still it remains to be proven. For years there have been attempts to get evidence of audible difference between cables of reasonable construction. There are claims and challenges. There is one standing challenge since >10 years from the Swedish Audio Technical Society to the Audio press. They may choose time, equpiment, place length, fast/slow switching, but tests need to be double blind. No one has accepted. There are challenges with price sums around. No one has tried, or at least none that I've heard about. Another blind test including people that "percieved" cable difference made a test a few years ago. They chose time, equipment and place for the test. A very expensive Transparent speaker cable against Supra Ply. The test result was exactly 50% correct guesses = random. Another report was published in the former Swedish "Electronics World". Four different systems and I believe six different cables. Result was the same as random choice. A third test was quite recently conducted here (in Swedish though):

http://www.fivechannels.com/artiklar/kabeltest.htm

Kimber vs Harmonic Tech: 2/7 and 3/7 correct.
Nordost vs Supra: 3/7
Kimber vs Nordost: 7/7
Noname vs Kimber 3/7 and 2/7
EKK vs Kimber: 5/7 and 3/7

(Total was 28/56=50%.) One 7/7 result was obtained, but this is rather easy to get in a series of attempts.

The Tag McLaren test showed no difference.

Several previous tests have been made: I've tested Supra Ply against Linn K20 (two completely different geometries). Very very slight roll of at 20 kHz of K20. No audible difference.

I've conducted blind tests between CD players at home: Two listernes, me included, could hear a slight difference blindly. This was caused most probably by the 0.4 dB difference in absolute level so it is not valid. I made similar tests with DACs at another location, level matched, 2 listeners. We gave up after a couple of hours. No difference. Although differences CAN be heard between some CD players, it is not easy, and many are so similar that it would require special test signal to hear a difference.

In addition, many more blind tests have been done during the 25 years of cable debate.

These are a few of the reasons to why I and many others are very sceptical to any claims, including yours, of audible difference. First, I have seen no data, and if there is data, was there anyone on the "objective side" that can confirm your test results? When we conducted the CD player test at the Studio, there was one sceptical person from Audioreview invited (although he did not show up for some reason). If you really want to claim an audible difference, why not conduct a proper test and include controls, if it is easy to show it?

T

DMK
05-04-2004, 06:18 PM
I've conducted blind tests between CD players at home: Two listernes, me included, could hear a slight difference blindly. This was caused most probably by the 0.4 dB difference in absolute level so it is not valid. I made similar tests with DACs at another location, level matched, 2 listeners. We gave up after a couple of hours. No difference. Although differences CAN be heard between some CD players, it is not easy, and many are so similar that it would require special test signal to hear a difference.T

Thomas,

I've done exhaustive (enough for me!) testing on CD players, single blind as DBT is too difficult to do and SBT is very simple. There was one instance where there were discernible differences in CDP's. Using my reference Sony XA20-ES player and my old CD recorder, the Pioneer PDR-509, myself and a cohort noticed repeatable sonic differences but only when listening through Sennheiser HD600 headphones through the units respective headphone jacks. Are there qualitative differences among these jacks or do you think the players actually sound different?

On the flip side, I also tested some cheap CD players and some expensive ones against my at-the-time reference Theta transport/Dac combo. Nobody heard any difference. I have retained my Sony which at the time was being used in a second system because it has the finest transport I've ever used. It can navigate CD's that cause other players fits. The ability to actually play a CD without skipping or getting stuck is the best sonic difference I've experienced! My cable tests revealed no differences except for the poor Straight Wire Virtuoso which was tested as defective by the manufacturer after the test.

Alas, all is not well in Objective Town. Amplification plays a significant part in the sound of my system. Preamps in particular can have identical specs and sound quite different. Ditto phono stages and all parts of the LP chain as well as speakers. However, my significant and that of others may differ. I'd say all but about 10% (arbitrary number, of course) of the final sound comes from speakers, source software and room acoustics and not necessarily in that order. But that 10% is the difference between great sound and stunning, occasionally live, sound.

mtrycraft
05-04-2004, 09:48 PM
Same tired old "we can't tell the difference with the POS equipment we're using" argument. None of you guys has EVER provided test results using anything better than mid-fi gear.

rw


Ah, but you have the burden to demonstrate that your system makes a difference in detectng ability. Your evidence can be found under which rock? It isn't anywhere, and you are just daydreaming as much as the next golden ear, regardless of your estats or 30 years of experience that is unreliable at best. So, in essence, you are the stuck needle in the groove with no evidence to support your wild claims.
When?

mtrycraft
05-04-2004, 09:50 PM
[QUOTE=nusiclover] On another side,
If speaker cables Made No difference, then there would cease to be sooo many succesful speaker cable companys out there. You can use the "marketing" card for so long, but then it becomes mute, because neither I (captain frugal himself) nor a thousand other paying customers would simply succumb to expert marketeering unless they put "magic potion" in our cables so that when i touched them we would feel euphorically happy :).
Come on, give it a rest, no cable companys are drugging us to HAVE to like their cables better. The simple truth is that, well, there are audible differences. So sorry if your ears can not dissiminate between the two. But, my ears work damn fine.
QUOTE]


Wrong, wrong, wrong. I suppose the psychics can really tell your future, talk to the dead. Holistic healing does heal people. John Edwards does talk to the dead, right.
After all, if they are not for real, why do so many people continue to run after these sharlatans.

No, marketing is everything but human nature being gullible is a tremendous asset of marketeers.

You have a lot to learn about human nature, perception, snake oil salesmen.

mtrycraft
05-04-2004, 09:50 PM
The difference is that I qualify my comments with respect to the system involved. You make unsupported blanket claims. Which is indeed valid for the majority of folks asking what cable they should use with their Onkyo receiver.

rw


You can qualify you statement with anything you like. You still don't have supporting evidence, just speculations, guesses, daydreams. But, some are very happy with dreams. Enjoy.

mtrycraft
05-04-2004, 09:52 PM
Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?




Oh, there are. Few post here though :) Most have to make some sort of testable claims though.
Now only if they followed your suggestion, this place would be dead, nothing to comment on :D

mtrycraft
05-04-2004, 09:54 PM
FACT = DBTs are not the answer in psychological testing.
Thus you better be on the fence.


You are reading the wrong books. Get better instructors.

Thomas_A
05-04-2004, 10:17 PM
Thomas,

I've done exhaustive (enough for me!) testing on CD players, single blind as DBT is too difficult to do and SBT is very simple. There was one instance where there were discernible differences in CDP's. Using my reference Sony XA20-ES player and my old CD recorder, the Pioneer PDR-509, myself and a cohort noticed repeatable sonic differences but only when listening through Sennheiser HD600 headphones through the units respective headphone jacks. Are there qualitative differences among these jacks or do you think the players actually sound different?

On the flip side, I also tested some cheap CD players and some expensive ones against my at-the-time reference Theta transport/Dac combo. Nobody heard any difference. I have retained my Sony which at the time was being used in a second system because it has the finest transport I've ever used. It can navigate CD's that cause other players fits. The ability to actually play a CD without skipping or getting stuck is the best sonic difference I've experienced! My cable tests revealed no differences except for the poor Straight Wire Virtuoso which was tested as defective by the manufacturer after the test.

Alas, all is not well in Objective Town. Amplification plays a significant part in the sound of my system. Preamps in particular can have identical specs and sound quite different. Ditto phono stages and all parts of the LP chain as well as speakers. However, my significant and that of others may differ. I'd say all but about 10% (arbitrary number, of course) of the final sound comes from speakers, source software and room acoustics and not necessarily in that order. But that 10% is the difference between great sound and stunning, occasionally live, sound.


There are some differences between some CD players. Headphone use takes away some of the confusion caused by room reflections and are phase correct, in contrast to a majority of the speakers on the market. There could also be some difference in the headphone output. There is one report also of a Teac player which can be heard different with and without the display on/off, but so far only using pink noise. Music was not possible.

Now in a highend system like the Studio, signals down to 10 Hz or lower are easily percieved at high SPL as vibrations in the body. Some persons are very sensitive to changes in the vibration in the body, so an amp with a -3 dB point at 6-8 Hz may be percived as different. This is quite extreme and would not be percieved in most systems used at home.

RIAA amps may be quite different and also provide different loads for the cartridge and sound different. For pre-amps, I guess there could be channel imbalance differences due to pot quality. Otherwise, transparent pre-amps are quite easy to construct.

T

E-Stat
05-05-2004, 04:49 AM
For pre-amps, I guess there could be channel imbalance differences due to pot quality. Otherwise, transparent pre-amps are quite easy to construct.
Please define "transparent" as you use the term. In a previous post, you indicated that a particular Rotel amp was likewise transparent.

rw

Thomas_A
05-05-2004, 06:55 AM
Per definition, there is no way to be 100% sure of transparency due to the rules of Science. It's an approximation which covers all listening tests made with a certain amount of people at a specific time-point with the corresponding accesory equipment. If one chooses the best conditions possible and the most critical listeners and make several tests with very demanind music and signals, it is still valid for these situations only. It is up to other listeners or by repeating the tests using other equipment or music samples to either confirm or disprove the hypothesis that the component is "audibly transparent", of course using scientific methods.

Now to the word "transparent".

Definition of transparent is when the signal pass through a component without any audible distortion, i.e. there is no audible difference of the signal before and after it has passed a component. The test method used by Swedish Audio Technical Socieity is called F/E test or "before/after" test , which are more sensitive than standard DBT of A-B listening tests.

One of the articles at the Sonic Design home page describes this method for power amps, but it can be applied for pre-amps too.

http://www.sonicdesign.se/amptest.htm

http://www.sonicdesign.se/articles.htm

CD players are more tricky, but there are methods around that. For example the analogue signal can be converted to digital first by an A/D converter and then back to analogue with and D/A converter. By making a test with the original signal, and that passing the conversion, one can try to determine whether the signal is audible different. Since errors in conversion are in a majority of cases additive, one could then say, if there are no audible differences of the before/after signal, that the D/A converter is transparent. If there is a specific error in the A/D conversion that is exactly inverted in the D/A converter then one could say that the this specific test will fail. But a perfect inversion of an error is not very probable, and to avoid any doubts different combinations of A/Ds and D/As need to be tested. When there is a transparent D/A (it can take a year or so to do all the tests), there is a possibility to use that a reference for further testing of other CD players.



T

skeptic
05-05-2004, 07:30 AM
"Anger is not healthy."

That's true but if it leads to brick throwing, it is usually not as unhealthy for the throwER as for the throwEE (depending on aim---and allowing for windage.)

skeptic
05-05-2004, 07:32 AM
When I want to buy something pleasant to look at, I go to an art Gallery.

When I want to buy something to wire up my speakers with, I go to Home Depot.

I've never thought of wire as art. But then that's just me.

E-Stat
05-05-2004, 09:40 AM
Per definition, there is no way to be 100% sure of transparency due to the rules of Science.
Agreed. That is why I use high quality passive attenuators between my CDP and power amps. Although my Audio Research preamp is a good unit, I can hear the difference when I remove it from the signal path altogether. Fortunately, I do not need the added 12 of gain it provides. I use the preamp solely for vinyl playback.



Definition of transparent is when the signal pass through a component without any audible distortion, i.e. there is no audible difference of the signal before and after it has passed a component. The test method used by Swedish Audio Technical Socieity is called F/E test or "before/after" test , which are more sensitive than standard DBT of A-B listening tests.
I read your linked amp test procedure. You piggy-back one amp into another via some compensation circuitry with a bypass switch and make the determination from that. How do you determine the transparency of the "regular" amp first? Did the author of the test consider the fact that the "regular" amp along with the associated compensation circuitry and extra wiring itself is masking differences that may be evident only if one were to compare only the DUT?

rw

Thomas_A
05-05-2004, 10:21 AM
Agreed. That is why I use high quality passive attenuators between my CDP and power amps. Although my Audio Research preamp is a good unit, I can hear the difference when I remove it from the signal path altogether. Fortunately, I do not need the added 12 of gain it provides. I use the preamp solely for vinyl playback.



I read your linked amp test procedure. You piggy-back one amp into another via some compensation circuitry with a bypass switch and make the determination from that. How do you determine the transparency of the "regular" amp first? Did the author of the test consider the fact that the "regular" amp along with the associated compensation circuitry and extra wiring itself is masking differences that may be evident only if one were to compare only the DUT?

rw

Even if the regular amp should not be completely transparent, there is no way to hear this as something arising from the test object during the switching procedure. Assuming that the test object is transparent there will be no difference during switching even if the regular amp adds distortion. If the test object is not transparent, it is most likely be heard since distortion is additive.

If one assumes, highly unlikely, that the distortion of the regular amp some way "masks" any distortion of the test object (i.e. there is no audible difference during switching), then one can use another amp identical to the test object as regular amp. And continue to switch the regular amp to other amps. As the number of experiments increase, there is increasing power in the statistics.

In addition, the author claims that 9/10 amps are audibly different using this method and the test critera included. Thus, there is no need to worry about any "masking distortion", is there? ;)

T

Rikki
05-05-2004, 02:42 PM
Cables??? Just room acoustics alone will be more important to sound than....cables. Enuf.

I agree room acoustics are very underrated. People spend many $$ on equipment and where you place speakers and it what room you place them in can make a HUGE difference.

E-Stat
05-05-2004, 03:06 PM
In addition, the author claims that 9/10 amps are audibly different using this method and the test critera included. Thus, there is no need to worry about any "masking distortion", is there?
I must have missed that point and it is well taken. I suspect there are many on this board who think that most all good amps sound alike. It has been my experience that virtually all amps have a characteristic sound, regardless of otherwise similar specifications. This test bears out my assertion.

rw

DMK
05-05-2004, 05:29 PM
transparent pre-amps are quite easy to construct

Terrific! Has anyone constructed one yet? When will it be on the market? Are you talking active preamps or passive as E-Stat mentioned. I have yet to hear a perfectly transparent active preamp so I'm on the edge of my seat! The closest I've heard to transparent cost $8K. Hopefully, they can figure out a way to make them transparent AND reduce the cost dramatically. I certainly can't afford $8K!

DMK
05-05-2004, 05:32 PM
I agree room acoustics are very underrated. People spend many $$ on equipment and where you place speakers and it what room you place them in can make a HUGE difference.

Agreed! With my first good system, I concentrated on room acoustics until I had it right. But with many of the upgrades, room acoustics and speaker placement had to be changed. But generally people deal with room acoustics before they delve into esoteric stuff like cables but some indeed overlook that important aspect.

DMK
05-05-2004, 05:36 PM
I must have missed that point and it is well taken. I suspect there are many on this board who think that most all good amps sound alike. It has been my experience that virtually all amps have a characteristic sound, regardless of otherwise similar specifications. This test bears out my assertion.

rw

Preamps as well! I'm amazed at the ones that measure virtually identically and sound so different. I remember years ago the NAD/Rotel/Acurus test I went through. They all cost about the same, measured the same and couldn't have been mistaken for one another by someone with one ear! This was done blind and, miracle of miracles, the sound was EXACTLY as the so-called golden eared media called it. The NAD was soft, the Rotel clear but a bit on the bright side and the Acurus made the neighbors dog howl! :)

Would you mind sharing what power amp(s) you use? If you've posted this before, I missed it.

E-Stat
05-05-2004, 06:13 PM
Would you mind sharing what power amp(s) you use? If you've posted this before, I missed it.
Unlike dialtones like mtry and zapped, I have no problem discussing my systems. I use a pair of VTL MB-450s with JPS Labs Power AC+ cords in the primary system and a Threshold Stasis 3 in the garage system. I share your feelings concerning preamps as well. Although I do not consider it to be a "transparent" preamp, I use an Audio Research SP-9 MkIII for phono playback. Of all the preamps I've heard, I greatly prefer the Conrad Johnson ART II to the Burmester 808, the Aesthetix, and the Hovland. (I have not had the pleasure of hearing the ARC Ref II). It is supremely musical and lends a very large soundstage.

<a href="http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html">System details</a href>

rw

DMK
05-05-2004, 06:54 PM
Unlike dialtones like mtry and zapped, I have no problem discussing my systems. I use a pair of VTL MB-450s with JPS Labs Power AC+ cords in the primary system and a Threshold Stasis 3 in the garage system. I share your feelings concerning preamps as well. Although I do not consider it to be a "transparent" preamp, I use an Audio Research SP-9 MkIII for phono playback. Of all the preamps I've heard, I greatly prefer the Conrad Johnson ART II to the Burmester 808, the Aesthetix, and the Hovland. (I have not had the pleasure of hearing the ARC Ref II). It is supremely musical and lends a very large soundstage.

<a href="http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html">System details</a href>

rw

I don't need as much power. The 25 watts from my tubed MaxLine Trimax monoblocs are more than sufficient to drive my 103 db/w Brentworth Sound Labs single point source speakers. My preamp is the Wyetech Labs Jade since I can't afford the Opal which is about as close to transparent as I've heard in a preamp, more so to my ears than the CJ ART (although I hasten to add that I haven't heard its latest iteration). I recently downgraded my turntable rig to a VPI HW-19 jr with upgraded platter and clamp/Rega RB300 and Ortofon Kontrapunkt B. My former rig was a Basis 2500/Graham 2.2/Benz Reference. To be honest, I miss my old Sota Cosmos and am thinking about getting another. No tweaks aside from room acoustics stuff and cables are other peoples throwaways - Monster, low rent Tara and Kimber 4PR. I've never heard a difference in cables.

This system brings me frighteningly close to live music on occasion. I never understood the word "soundstage" until I heard the BSL speakers. I also liked the one pair of 'stats I heard - the upper echelon Maggies. All speakers have compromises and I preferrred those of the BSL's. Different strokes. Nice system! It's a good thing it all sounds the same or I'd be jealous! :D I must say I do enjoy you your VTL's but as I said, I don't need that much power. The Wyetech Topaz I'm in love with only has 18 watts. That said, very low powered SET's never did much for me.

Thomas_A
05-05-2004, 09:48 PM
Preamps as well! I'm amazed at the ones that measure virtually identically and sound so different. I remember years ago the NAD/Rotel/Acurus test I went through. They all cost about the same, measured the same and couldn't have been mistaken for one another by someone with one ear! This was done blind and, miracle of miracles, the sound was EXACTLY as the so-called golden eared media called it. The NAD was soft, the Rotel clear but a bit on the bright side and the Acurus made the neighbors dog howl! :)

Is there any data for this test? How many trials and correct guesses? What was the calibrations of levels?

T

Thomas_A
05-05-2004, 09:52 PM
I must have missed that point and it is well taken. I suspect there are many on this board who think that most all good amps sound alike. It has been my experience that virtually all amps have a characteristic sound, regardless of otherwise similar specifications. This test bears out my assertion.

rw

All other DBT of power amps have been negative when doing A-B testing and it has been thousands of them published. Since the test methods and critera differ from the before/after test, they are not directly comparable. By testing an amp with a bypass wire, there is a possibility to compare to the reference signal which has not passed any electronic curcuitry. Also there is a possibility to both very low power and close to maximum power of the test object (without clipping) and still listen to enjoyable volume. For what it's worth, tests I've read tend to fail amps e.g. in the low end where vibrations in the body can be felt (7-15 Hz). Also at higher power levels there have been some loss in dynamics. All taken together, it is possible that such flaws are never heard at realistics levels played at home with ordinary equipment. For example, how many have systems able to reproduce signals down to 10 Hz at high SPL with low distortion? How many have a system where the entire room is built around the specific systems with correct room dimension and lots of damping/diffusors? How many systems reproduce a perfect square wave with a frequency response of ±1 dB at listening position?

So under more realistic conditions I would kindly disagree with you and say that many amps sound similar.



T

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:43 PM
Hi Fi CHoice magazines reviews and has been reviewing for over a decade in a panel of listeners blind and levels matched. It is not a DBT because differences are assumed so the panelists simply sit and review what they like and or dislike about componant A, B, C, D E etc.

.

So, in reality they are making a selection of preferences, not audible differences as this protocol is not designed for that. In the end, it says nothing about audible differences really.

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:56 PM
I must have missed that point and it is well taken. I suspect there are many on this board who think that most all good amps sound alike. It has been my experience that virtually all amps have a characteristic sound, regardless of otherwise similar specifications. This test bears out my assertion.

rw


Well, an old $300 Yam integrated sourely was not different from a Pass Alphen to 3 audiophiles. So, yes, you are correct, well designed amps are just that.
I guess you have no idea about such sounds though without DBT protocol.

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:57 PM
Terrific! Has anyone constructed one yet? When will it be on the market? Are you talking active preamps or passive as E-Stat mentioned. I have yet to hear a perfectly transparent active preamp so I'm on the edge of my seat! The closest I've heard to transparent cost $8K. Hopefully, they can figure out a way to make them transparent AND reduce the cost dramatically. I certainly can't afford $8K!


I wouldn't trust e-stat for the time of day, let alone pre amp transparency.
Passive preamps are just an audio abortion. Best to deep six them yesterday.

I guess you need to start DBT on preamps, or read TAC on them, especially one of the recent issues.

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 11:00 PM
Unlike dialtones like mtry and zapped, I have no problem discussing my systems. I use a pair of VTL MB-450s with JPS Labs Power AC+ cords in the primary system and a Threshold Stasis 3 in the garage system. I share your feelings concerning preamps as well. Although I do not consider it to be a "transparent" preamp, I use an Audio Research SP-9 MkIII for phono playback. Of all the preamps I've heard, I greatly prefer the Conrad Johnson ART II to the Burmester 808, the Aesthetix, and the Hovland. (I have not had the pleasure of hearing the ARC Ref II). It is supremely musical and lends a very large soundstage.

<a href="http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/966.html">System details</a href>

rw

You have no idea if it is audibly different from any other, do you? You are just speculating of course. You are hoping after spending all that $$$$.

skeptic
05-06-2004, 02:51 AM
How telling it is then that the manufacturers of audio equipment are utterly incompetent in their jobs by omitting ANY and all means for adjusting their equipment to compensate for variations in the parameters most affecting their performance in actual use. Even the most modest means such as tweeter and midrange level controls and tone controls have been almost universally deleted from middle and high priced equipment.

Why have they omitted them? Because they don't understand them and their customers haven't taken them to task for it. And what is their customers' solution to the problem? Shop for and experiment endlessly with unproven expensive unpredictable fixes like speaker cables.

Is it acceptable for no consideraton to be given to the conditions of actual use but for designers to build their equipment for measurement in a laboratory and then tell the customer any problems due to acoustics are his problem alone? What if your car wasn't designed with the different kinds of roads it was likely to be driven on in mind? What if your television set wasn't designed for the different kinds of signals it was likely to be fed? What if your home wasn't designed for the different kinds of weather it would be exposed to? You wouldn't consider any of them but when it comes to audio equipment designed for performance in a lab or anechoic chamber alone and not in YOUR home with YOUR acoustic and YOUR other equipment, you not only embrace it, you can't wait to pay out ever more money than you already have for equipment which objectively is no better than what you already own. So is it any wonder why some people like me think most audiophiles are *%^$)??? Your loss. I'm just too happy to buy second hand excellent equipment you no longer want at bargain basement prices. It is also interesting that at least some audiophiles grow up to the point where they have seller's remorse thinking fondly of some old equipment they wish they still had.

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 03:49 AM
For example, how many have systems able to reproduce signals down to 10 Hz at high SPL with low distortion?
Given the paucity of recordings that have any musical content in the sub octave range, that is not terribly important to me in the big picture. I have heard, however, a very nicely driven pair of Alon Grand Exoticas that is flat to 16 hz. I find accuracy in the midrange to be far more valuable.

rw

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 03:53 AM
I don't need as much power. The 25 watts from my tubed MaxLine Trimax monoblocs are more than sufficient to drive my 103 db/w Brentworth Sound Labs single point source speakers. My preamp is the Wyetech Labs Jade since I can't afford the Opal which is about as close to transparent as I've heard in a preamp, more so to my ears than the CJ ART (although I hasten to add that I haven't heard its latest iteration). I recently downgraded my turntable rig to a VPI HW-19 jr with upgraded platter and clamp/Rega RB300 and Ortofon Kontrapunkt B. My former rig was a Basis 2500/Graham 2.2/Benz Reference.
Intriguing sysem. I've never heard of the BSL speakers. The Wyetechs are gorgeous - HP had an Opal on one of my visits.



This system brings me frighteningly close to live music on occasion. I never understood the word "soundstage" until I heard the BSL speakers. I also liked the one pair of 'stats I heard - the upper echelon Maggies. All speakers have compromises and I preferrred those of the BSL's. Different strokes.
Indeed. One minor correction is that Magneplanars use planar magnetic drivers and ribbons. Strictly speaking they are not electrostats. The 20.1s do sound nice though. One thing in common with your speakers and mine is that they are both full range. They just go about it very differently.

Enjoy!

rw

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 03:58 AM
Well, an old $300 Yam integrated sourely was not different from a Pass Alphen to 3 audiophiles. So, yes, you are correct, well designed amps are just that.
I guess you have no idea about such sounds though without DBT protocol.
Ah yes, our language impaired ditch digger arises to join the party.

I "sourely" doubt that you have any details of this test using the Pass Labs Aleph.

rw

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 04:18 AM
You are just speculating of course. You are hoping after spending all that $$$$.
No, speculation comes from lack of direct experience. Actually, I just enjoy hearing all that expensive gear available to my reviewer friends. I bought my preamp used for a third of it's retail value.

rw

996turbo
05-06-2004, 04:56 AM
http://www.transparentcable.com/products/reviews/thepros.html

Check out the link here.

rb122
05-06-2004, 05:16 AM
So under more realistic conditions I would kindly disagree with you and say that many amps sound similar.T

I agree. But I would emphasize the word "similar" and not "the same". All amps have a sound that resembles the sound of another amp. The differences are somewhat subtle to most ears. But they may be crucially different to some people.

Thomas_A
05-06-2004, 07:37 AM
I agree. But I would emphasize the word "similar" and not "the same". All amps have a sound that resembles the sound of another amp. The differences are somewhat subtle to most ears. But they may be crucially different to some people.

Perhaps, but difference between amp to amp in an A-B test remains to be proven. Thousands of trials have been made during many years, all with nulls. You are perhaps aware of the 10,000 dollar price sum challenge where the tester took his Yamaha amp to Pass Labs (if I remember correctly), and returned with his money? No difference.

T

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 07:49 AM
Perhaps, but difference between amp to amp in an A-B test remains to be proven.
To what do you attribute the glaring contradiction of results between the "9 out of 10 amps sound different" using the bypass switch and the alleged lack of any diffferences using A-B testing?

rw

Resident Loser
05-06-2004, 07:49 AM
...and Ford Explorers are the biggest selling SUVs on the market...'cept the don't tell you a big chunk are fleet sales of the 2WD versions...

...and 9 out of 10 doctors recommend this or that drug du jour...'cept they don't tell you what goodies the salesmen give the drs. for writing prescriptions for said drugs...and how that practice and all the adverts impacts the drugs' price...in fact some provide pre-printed 'scrips for the drug in question...all the busy doc hasta' do is sign it...

...and this(insert item of your choice here) is the official whatzis for the Olympics, or the NFL, or whoever wants some freebies...

...no diff for wire or other gear...if I recall, some east coast ball player was shill, a...er, spokesperson for the high end gear named after the extinct species on the "Forbidden Planet"...

jimHJJ(...lotsa' people will say lotsa' things...)

Thomas_A
05-06-2004, 07:55 AM
Given the paucity of recordings that have any musical content in the sub octave range, that is not terribly important to me in the big picture. I have heard, however, a very nicely driven pair of Alon Grand Exoticas that is flat to 16 hz. I find accuracy in the midrange to be far more valuable.

rw

Agreed that accuracy in the midrange is more important than around 10 Hz for most people. I just say that the word transparency and the test method/criteria used will affect the outcome of the test results from ta DBT. Testing against a bypass cable with the combination of using very low and very high output power from the test object while at the same time listening to the same comfortable level could in principle reveal more than just A-B comparisons between amps at same output levels.

There is still no evidence of differences during A-B comparisons of amps, except tube amps or e.g. amps with deliberately built-in high distortion. Some amps, like the new MkII versions of the Audio Analogue power amps have however -1 dB at 20 kHz, 0.3 dB at 10 kHz and 0.1 dB at 5 kHz. This could be audible.

Correction was that audible difference do exist between amps. It is just amps like a Rotel and Halcro and similar that I refer to. That is, amps made with the purpose to be amps but where huge price differences exist.

T

Thomas_A
05-06-2004, 08:07 AM
To what do you attribute the glaring contradiction of results between the "9 out of 10 amps sound different" using the bypass switch and the alleged lack of any diffferences using A-B testing?

rw

Lack of possibility to reproduce down to 10 Hz signals at high SPL and lack of using both very low and very high power levels of the test object while still listening to the same comfortable level. Lack of controls using a "reference", i.e. the bypass cable. The best equipment/setup/room must be used (like the Ino Audio system) critical listeners may be important. Also source music and test signals are important.

T

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 08:26 AM
Lack of possibility to reproduce down to 10 Hz signals at high SPL and lack of using both very low and very high power levels of the test object while still listening to the same comfortable level. Lack of controls using a "reference", i.e. the bypass cable. The best equipment/setup/room must be used (like the Ino Audio system) critical listeners may be important. Also source music and test signals are important.
I'd say you summarized pretty well why most tests results are useless.

rw

Thomas_A
05-06-2004, 08:54 AM
I'd say you summarized pretty well why most tests results are useless.

rw

Well, I don't agree the tests are useless. I think useless tests are those which don't follow any scientific procedures. Results need to put into perspective for what is needed for the specific situation, and whether it is critical or not.

The fact remains that there is no positive results published of DBTs using A-B methods (or ABX) with reasonable amps (i.e. those that are made to be just amps). Fact is also that transparent amps and CD players can be found rather cheap and there is no need for "high-end" equipment IF transparency is the goal of the system.

If we should move further into the discussion, there need to be some data that shows that amp to amp differences are audible for normal use, i.e. at home during normal music listening.

The thread started with cables though...

T

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 09:16 AM
The thread started with cables though...
supported by a litany of tests subject to the same foibles you identified.

rw

Thomas_A
05-06-2004, 01:45 PM
Going back to cables.

Many claims of audbility are made with no proper tests and no controls and there is no measurable evidence of any audible phenomenon in cables. If such a claim is made, then it should be backed up with a proper test with controls.

Nobody has ever done that and those who have performed such a test, have failed. Even if they were able to choose the equipment they wanted and claiming to hear big differences before the test was made.

So E-stat, I have provided some tests of amps that may be questioned in light of the other many tests that have been made. As I mentioned, the different results can perhaps be explained by the different test methods and the definitions of "transparency".

So we are still waiting for anybody to confirm similar tests with cables or e.g. pre-amps, using proper controls. In my mind, the search for the truth should be constructive. Since you apparently claim hear such differences, why do you not conduct such tests? In light of the many null results, you have an opportunity to prove your claims.

T

DMK
05-06-2004, 04:59 PM
So we are still waiting for anybody to confirm similar tests with cables or e.g. pre-amps, using proper controls. In my mind, the search for the truth should be constructive. Since you apparently claim hear such differences, why do you not conduct such tests? In light of the many null results, you have an opportunity to prove your claims. T

I'm not E-Stat and I don't even play him on the internet. But I'd like to answer this question and the other one you posed to me waaaaaay back when on this thread. I don't get to post during the day so I'm often behind! :)

You asked about the data of the blind testing I and three cohorts did back in 1998 or so on preamps (we also did integrateds and power amps). On preamps and integrateds, we did very well in single blind tests and on power amps we did poorly. The data that I had was lost in the Great Computer Crash of 2002, along with the data for our cable tests. I think one of the participants has it in hard copy and I tried reaching him today without success. The calibration was done by the tester and I don't recall how it was done. I do recall that we did a total of 16 trials each and 16 between 6 different preamps. Each preamps and integrated had basically the same specs but slightly different sounds.

I performed my FINAL series of blind tests a few years ago and I have zero intention of repeating them. Life is too short, they were a pain in the a** and, quite frankly, I don't care if they prove or don't prove anything to naysayers. It proves something to me and, as selfish as that sounds, that's the extent of my concern. And I won't mind a bit if people question the validity of my tests or if I even took them at all. The reason E-Stat doesn't perform DBT (if I may be so bold as to answer for him!) is for the same reason - he's comfortable with the protocol he's used in the past and doesn't feel the need to prove anything to anybody.

I differ a bit. I was NOT comfortable with simple listening in light of the scientific evidence against sonic differences in components so I performed tests on amplification, cables (no differences), CD players (very slight diffs but only through headphones) and a few turntables (diffs mostly came from better isolation). These tests, while not scientific because they were single blind as opposed to double blind, have allowed me to see through the bs on BOTH sides of the argument. Blindly following either camp, yea or naysayer, has not worked for me. I will say that, based on my experiences, I feel the naysayer POV is by far the more accurate, but it isn't completely so. Once you have your speakers and their positioning, your music software and your room acoustics in line, you're 90% of the way to getting the best sound you can get. Where I agree with E-Stat to the letter is that I believe in my experiences rather than a party line. As he said, you can speculate (with or without evidence) or you can experience for yourself - those two states are mutually exclusive. With the bias controls in place, I proved to myself what does and doesn't sound different - no speculation necessary. I don't expect everyone to agree with me but to those who ask me to perform DBT to prove sonic differences, I would respectfully ask them to do it for themselves if they feel they have something they need proven.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 09:54 PM
Perhaps, but difference between amp to amp in an A-B test remains to be proven. Thousands of trials have been made during many years, all with nulls. You are perhaps aware of the 10,000 dollar price sum challenge where the tester took his Yamaha amp to Pass Labs (if I remember correctly), and returned with his money? No difference.

T


Tom Nousaine did such a test in Florida about 1998. A golden ear, his golden ear wife and friend could not differentiate the two amps. I am not aware of the 10g offer, unless there was another such test someplace else :) But, now that I remember the other amp was a Pass Alphen.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 09:55 PM
No, speculation comes from lack of direct experience. Actually, I just enjoy hearing all that expensive gear available to my reviewer friends. I bought my preamp used for a third of it's retail value.

rw


Flawed and unreliable experience is worthless. Yes, speculation is very much a part of that experience.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 10:03 PM
The reason E-Stat doesn't perform DBT (if I may be so bold as to answer for him!) is for the same reason - he's comfortable with the protocol he's used in the past and doesn't feel the need to prove anything to anybody.

.

That is fine. But then he needs to stop claiming what he cannot support when taken to task for testable claims. If he enjoys his singular reality, that is his business. He cannot expect it to have meaning for anyone else. It doesn't and cannot.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 10:08 PM
Ah yes, our language impaired ditch digger arises to join the party.

I "sourely" doubt that you have any details of this test using the Pass Labs Aleph.

rw

It was published in TAC a number of years ago. But it has no meaning for you. Why would it? It doesn't support any of your claims. Oh, th espeakers were the top Dunlavy but I guess they are junk too, as far as you are concerned. Everything was the self proclaimed golden ears components except the yam.
But then you will never know if there are differences untill you sit down for a DBT, level matched listeing which will never happen, right. So, everything is moot.

pctower
05-07-2004, 05:39 AM
That is fine. But then he needs to stop claiming what he cannot support when taken to task for testable claims. If he enjoys his singular reality, that is his business. He cannot expect it to have meaning for anyone else. It doesn't and cannot.

"If he enjoys his singular reality, that is his business."

Singular reality? He sure must be rich and spending a ton of money to keep all those cable companies in business all by himself.

Resident Loser
05-07-2004, 06:29 AM
...surely you've been around long enough to understand what is meant by "singular reality"...

jimHJJ(...at least in this context...)

E-Stat
05-07-2004, 10:42 AM
Tom Nousaine did such a test in Florida about 1998. A golden ear, his golden ear wife and friend could not differentiate the two amps
You prove me right every time, buddy. I'll ask again. Do you have any details of the test? Other gear, double runs of what cable attached to switch box, program material, etc.?


But, now that I remember the other amp was a Pass Alphen.
There is no such thing as a Pass Alphen.

rw

Resident Loser
05-07-2004, 11:46 AM
...well, given mtrys unique style of spelling and grammar one could say YOU are wrong...try "Pass Aleph" discontinued in January of 2000...

jimHJJ(...trick or trout...)

E-Stat
05-07-2004, 12:39 PM
...well, given mtrys unique style of spelling and grammar one could say YOU are wrong...try "Pass Aleph" discontinued in January of 2000...

jimHJJ(...trick or trout...)
Already have. Look at my original correction in post 58 and his having quoted the content in 75. Given his profoundly poor short term memory and lack of attention to detail, I have no doubt whatsoever that he is utterly incapable of discerning fine differences among components.

rw

WmAx
05-07-2004, 12:59 PM
I believe this is the infamous ABX test too which mtrycrafts is referring:

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&threadm=501fl6%24ac3%40oxy.rust.net&rnum=1&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dsunshine%2Bstereo%2Byamaha%2Babx%2Bno usaine%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3D501fl6%2524ac3%2540oxy.rust.net%26rnum% 3D1

-Chris



You prove me right every time, buddy. I'll ask again. Do you have any details of the test? Other gear, double runs of what cable attached to switch box, program material, etc.?


There is no such thing as a Pass Alphen.

rw

E-Stat
05-07-2004, 01:22 PM
I believe this is the infamous ABX test too which mtrycrafts is referring:
Thanks, Chris! Your link (and a killer one at that when you do a reply) provided exactly the kind of documentation lacking in most reports.

Unfortunately, I am completely unfamiliar with all of those components, so I cannot comment on them. I do have a much earlier Nelson Pass design, the Threshold Stasis 3. Chauk one up for the "most amps sound alike" crowd.

rw

pctower
05-08-2004, 07:03 AM
...surely you've been around long enough to understand what is meant by "singular reality"...

jimHJJ(...at least in this context...)

I've been around to know that cheap shots are the order of the day on this board. I'm just gettin' with the program here.

Resident Loser
05-10-2004, 05:44 AM
...Einstein was dyslexic...so your point is? Ones' penchant or proclivity for typos, etc. somehow invalidates the message?

I am one of the first to point out the "consider the source" scenario. To me, spelling and grammar are quite important in how one presents themselves in this anonymous bit of fol-de-rol...but that's just me. I see politicians, newscasters, "celebrities" and the like, run rampant over proper usage...and no, that doesn't make it right, it is unfortunately becoming the norm. So again, what is your point?

That fact notwithstanding, the content is what really matters...having been witness to the goings-on here for years, all I've ever seen mtry do, is attempt to get folks to realize how fallible they are. To support his premise, and unlike some, he doesn't need to pull out a laundry list of gear and post it as though it were some sort of gold star or a measure of his understanding of the issue. Few actually understand what the issue actually is.

With regard to your "corrections/addendums" re: the Pass amp...mea culpa! My cursory interest in the shennanigans here and about, limits the "depth" of my investigations into this shallow pool.

jimHJJ(...I never expect anyone to think as I do...simply to think...)

996turbo
05-10-2004, 05:50 AM
...Einstein was dyslexic...so your point is?

I am one of the first to point out the "consider the source" scenario. To me, spelling and grammar are quite important in how one presents themselves in this anonymous bit of fol-de-rol...but that's just me. I see politicians, newscasters, "celebrities" and the like, run rampant over proper usage...again, what is your point?

That fact notwithstanding, the content is what really matters...having been witness to the goings-on here for years, all I've ever seen mtry do, is attempt to get folks to realize how fallible they are. To suppoor his premise, and unlike some, he doesn't need to pull out a laundry list of gear and post it as though it were some sort of gold star or a measure of his understanding of the issue. Few actually understand what the issue actually is.

With regard to your "corrections/addendums" re: the Pass amp...mea culpa! My cursory interest in the shennanigans here and about, limits the "depth" of my investigations into this shallow pool.

jimHJJ(...I never expect anyone to think as I do...simply to think...)

I understand that he feels that the differences we hear are from psycholgical desires. He also believes that if a component is properly designed it will sound like another. I and many others just feel he is wrong. I have not spent half my life researching it or gathering scientific data. I do not have a plethora of data to prove my point. I only have the experiences have in my life to go on. I do not think we have reached perfection in engineering in any aspect of our lived including audio. This is where his argument falls apart. I guess that if we reached perfection in electrical design all perfect gear would sound the same. I do not believe this has been obtained and that is why the differences occur. I believe that science has yet to progress to the level that we have achieved perfection. The guys on the fringe of engineering making the hot rods in audio ,cars computers or whatever are the pioneers. Their productsare different from the mass market stuff. They charge alot more for the improvements they achieved. But next year their achievements will me common place and they will push the boundries further.

To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous.

Resident Loser
05-10-2004, 07:00 AM
I've been around to know that cheap shots are the order of the day on this board. I'm just gettin' with the program here.

"cheap shots"...musta missed it...certainly not the use of the phrase "singular reality"...

BTW, there's a "moron" who at last count, awaits a reply...

jimHJJ(...hhmmmm...)

Resident Loser
05-10-2004, 07:53 AM
"...I understand that he feels that the differences we hear are from psycholgical desires..."

That's a part of it, as I see it...

"...He also believes that if a component is properly designed it will sound like another..."

Which begs the question: Why shouldn't they? Where does hi-fi end and sounding different, just to be different, begin?

"...I and many others just feel he is wrong. I have not spent half my life researching it or gathering scientific data. I do not have a plethora of data to prove my point..."

Therefore, as it is really speculation based on anecdotal info, it would seem to be subject to the very things mtry points out...

"...I only have the experiences have in my life to go on..."

I prefer salami when it's thinly sliced on a bias, as opposed to perpendicular to it's axis...same sausage, different presentation...it's my bias which flies in the face of all logic...

"...I do not think we have reached perfection in engineering in any aspect of our lived including audio. This is where his argument falls apart..."

Never seen THAT argument made...

"...I guess that if we reached perfection in electrical design all perfect gear would sound the same. I do not believe this has been obtained and that is why the differences occur..."

Where is there perfection? Certainly not in the recording stage. With varying trechniques and styles, who can actually say this or that is perfect. There's "live" with one of the plethora of miking techniques, multi-tracking where the "air", "width" and "depth" are artificially produced or any combination thereof. What good is tweaking the gear to reproduce something that itself may or may not be real?

"...I believe that science has yet to progress to the level that we have achieved perfection. The guys on the fringe of engineering making the hot rods in audio ,cars computers or whatever are the pioneers..."

Insofar as installing a hotter cam, or increasing displacement or adding a little NO2, these are all MEASURABLE... as is the speed, resolution or whatever in PCland...Audio? show me the numbers...very bad analogy if you think about it...

"...Their products are different from the mass market stuff..."

"Different" OK, maybe...improvement? Both debateable...especially w/o and hard data to back it up...

"...They charge alot more for the improvements they achieved..."

Yep, there's super OFC, single-crystal wire and Wonder-caps and cryogenically treated gilhoolies...all the hot-button bells and whistles...Howzabout the laser-etched faceplates and torx-head fasteners and the...this is the stuff dreams are made of...

"...But next year their achievements will me common place and they will push the boundries further...

Like raising the peak powerband to 6000rpm and grenading the engine that much sooner...that kind of thing? In audio, the limiting factor is the source...if it ain't there, it ain't nowhere...that's the boundary...

"...To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous..."

Given the true state of the art, its all grasping at straws in the search for the Grail...

jimHJJ(...as most eventually see...)

pctower
05-10-2004, 09:57 AM
"cheap shots"...musta missed it...certainly not the use of the phrase "singular reality"...

BTW, there's a "moron" who at last count, awaits a reply...

jimHJJ(...hhmmmm...)

I suspect that I must have used the term "moron" in some post to which you responded and to which I owe a reply, but my memory with respect to posts is no better than my sound comparison memory so I'm in the dark.

Monstrous Mike
05-10-2004, 10:37 AM
To assume that we are at the pinnacle is just plain rediculous.
Why would you say this? I assume it is in relation to cable pioneering acheivements since that is what we are talking about.

Is it really ridiculous that there is nothing more to be gained sonically from cables? Do you have any examples where you feel progress limits have been reached or do you believe we can improve upon every single thing?

Personally, I can think of several examples where we have tried to push "boundaries" of design or whatnot and have produced something less than before. Could you see that happening to cables?

And finally, let's look at where real scientific pioneering takes place. One great source is the educational system. The professors and researchers who are either working on doctorates in engineering or have them already produce the most cutting edge research that I know of. In some circumstances, large corporations do this as well. Having been exposed to this environment, and working in it, I find it strange that cable research is completely absent. There are thousands upon thousands of engineering journals filled with all imaginable topics, yet not a single cable thesis that I could find.

It seems that the only pioneering done for cabling is done by cable retailers and they don't publish any findings or test results and usually don't even manufacture their cables themselves. So either this cable industry is truly unique and secretive, or it all a bunch of fluff.

Bjorn
06-26-2004, 02:09 PM
God love people and the web! Two extremes, each shouting past the other, each carrying on a glorious tradition that now spans decades:

"As far as i am concerned, i am 110% sure that speaker cables DO make a difference."
_____________________

"So the great cable farce goes on."
_____________________

Only now the whole world gets to "enjoy" this perpetual shouting match.

Is there anyone out there who just buys things because of the enjoyment he derives from his purchases (or lack thereof) and doesn't need every other human being to act and believe exactly as he does?

I guess we'd never run across such a person on the Internet. He'd be too busy listening to and enjoying his system to waste his and everyone else's time.

BTW, does all this "hot air" contribute to global warming?


:) Here's one guy that has heard some differences between cables, likes trying them out while enjoying music. Just bought a new set of cables to try and just going to spend some hours listening now, instead of posting really long posts :D But I know there's difference between cables.. Used to be cynic bout cables, but not anymore...

I

Norm Strong
06-26-2004, 08:04 PM
One of the articles was a translation of the original Swedish. One of the sentences used the expression "in plain English". My question is: Do the Swedes emphasize things by saying "in plain English", or do they say "in plain Swedish?"

Norm Strong
06-26-2004, 08:19 PM
No, speculation comes from lack of direct experience. Actually, I just enjoy hearing all that expensive gear available to my reviewer friends. I bought my preamp used for a third of it's retail value.

rw
I think you mean, "a third of its retail PRICE"

Beckman
06-26-2004, 10:45 PM
:) But I know there's difference between cables..
I

Anything other than 12 AWG zip cord can only degrade the signal to make it sound different. In addition, any cable that does sound different can be duplicated with 12 AWG zip cord and inductors/capacitors so why spend the money?

Thomas_A
06-27-2004, 03:13 AM
Norm Strong,

we say "på ren Svenska" in Swedish, i.e. "in plain Swedish". :)

T

E-Stat
06-27-2004, 12:43 PM
Anything other than 12 AWG zip cord can only degrade the signal to make it sound different. In addition, any cable that does sound different can be duplicated with 12 AWG zip cord and inductors/capacitors so why spend the money?

May you enjoy your zip.
:)

rw

f155mph
07-01-2004, 11:20 AM
I was just reading the post and I can't help myself to make a post here. This topic is a total waste of time and everyone here is acting silly. There will be no end to this argument. Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing. Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person. So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them. Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family. This is a free country, if company like Halliburton can waste millions of tax payer money, then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify. I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences. But did the differences justify the cost, NO. So I returned it and kept the Canare. If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice. Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment. This is the same reason why people are willing to spend $150 for a pair of Nike when they can get a normal pair of tennis shoe for half the price. It is also why women like to have LV and Hermes purses when a cheap purse from Wal-mart does the same thing. The same reason why people who have money drives BMW, Lexus, Bentley, Rolls Royce, and other expensive automobiles. My point is that it doesn't matter what the other guys thinks as long as you are satisfy and happy with what you got. Everyone value things a little differently. For example the wife or girlfriend might think that spending $1000 on a receiver is a waste of money, but at the same time she thinks it is ok to spend $1500 on a pair of diamond ear rings. The benefit gained from buying the receiver for you have a higher benefit to cost ratio then compare to the wife or girlfriend. The same is true the other way around. Simply put there is no scientific way to measure happiness and everyone utilty level is not the same even when comparing the same goods. So folks, stop getting upset at each other and just enjoy the music. :cool:

996turbo
07-01-2004, 11:25 AM
I could not agree with what you said more.

mtrycraft
07-01-2004, 11:59 AM
There will be no end to this argument.


That we can agree about. Neither will there be an end to the discussion of creation or intelligent design, right?

Think about it, it doesn't matter what that other person prefer because you'll never hear what that person is hearing.

Ah, now you are confusing a preference to what one hears? I doubt it is the same, right?
Hearing can be tested. Preferences most likely not as many aspects makes up a preference and in hearing, only the sound is involved, right?

Everyone hears and perceive things in a different way

Everyone perceives differently. Hopefully we all hear the same way though. There is a difference between hearing and perceiving.


so if someone thinks that the cable made a difference then it did for that person.

A sibgular reality?


So if someone want to spend $2000 on a pair of cable then let them.

Who is stopping him?

Heck I say more power to them since they are helping to feed someone's family.

Yes, one way to look at it. But, perhaps it is a family that doesn't need more feeding, the owner of the company?

This is a free country,

So far it is, to a limit.

then why can't we waste our own money without getting crucify.

No one is crucified. Many are questiond though when certain claims are made. As was Halliburton is questioned and will be required to repay.


I admit I had a pair of $1600 speaker cables before and I did a comparison between my $.68/ft Canare 4S11 and you know what I did hear some differences.

I think you perceived something. What, is the real question that can be tested.

If I had the extra money would I have kept the expensive cable, probably yes. Why? Because they are well made and look damn nice.

That is a valid issue of a preferred cable, yes by all means.

Seriously folks if you are really into hi-end audio, you are not only buying the stuff for the sound, but also for the look and pride of owning that piece of equipment.

Ah, you raise two issues here: sound quality and the rest. Sound quality can be tested. The rest, cannot.

Peter_Klim
07-03-2004, 12:27 PM
I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

Peter_Klim
07-03-2004, 12:34 PM
I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

WHO CARES!!!

If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

WOW!! I stopped reading this thread after the 1st page and not until after posting my last post did I read the one before mine. I totally agree with you!

Thomas_A
07-03-2004, 06:01 PM
1. I'm going to end this argument once and for all:

2. WHO CARES!!!

3. If you hear a difference or not, why try to convince someone otherwise?

4. Let's talk about something else: I believe in Jesus...

1. At last! 25 years of debate is over.
2. Who cares? Who do you think cares? Isn't it obvious?
3. Why not?
4. Who?

Peter_Klim
07-03-2004, 06:56 PM
1. At last! 25 years of debate is over.
2. Who cares? Who do you think cares? Isn't it obvious?
3. Why not?
4. Who?

1 - I wish it were.
2 - People who like to debate.
3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.
4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

mtrycraft
07-03-2004, 09:06 PM
3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.

I guess then you haven't read DMK's message where his mind was changed?
And the countless private mails and ones who never post?
You just cannot claim what you are claiming.

4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16


OK, that is what that passage has to say. And? It must be so? Based on one book? That book prooves itself?
Or, there is external evidence? Good luck, enjoy your faith.

markw
07-03-2004, 09:41 PM
"God so loved the world That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16

Good thought, Peter. Hang in there. You're not alone.

Feanor
07-04-2004, 05:29 AM
the answer is a positive YES....
I think there are differences between cables too. I've heard them though I can't prove that to anyone, not even myself. Nevertheless I'm reasonably convinced.

There are measurable differences between cables so why should there not be be audible differences as well? Some cable makers, (too few), publish electrical parameters for their speakers, (resistance, inductance, capacitance). You might expect that a cable with high inductance / low capacitance would emphasize bass. Maybe you could use zip cord + an inductor to achieve the same effect or maybe not: it would depend on the overall result. In any case, lots of people claim they can hear difference between similarly spec'e capacitors and inductors.

Proof is a difficult think. As RGA points out, DBT (double blind testing) cannot prove the negative proposition that there is no difference between A and B. Tobacco companies long claimed that there was no proof that tabacco caused disease: stricly speaking they were right. But we -- and they -- really knew better.

skeptic
07-04-2004, 06:06 AM
"There are measurable differences between cables so why should there not be be audible differences as well?"

Sometimes measureable differences are so slight as to be below the threshold of hearing of most people. Furthermore, whether these differences show up audibly and exactly how these differences manifest themselves subjectively depends on what equipment they are connected to. They become part of a network, they don't exist in a vacuum.

"As RGA points out, DBT (double blind testing) cannot prove the negative proposition that there is no difference between A and B."

I am sorry to say as is often the case, I have to disagree with RGA's statement. Even in Cable Asylum's discussion of its anti DBT rule, they acknowledge that DBTs are the ONLY way to determine if small audible differences between components exist. To be perfectly honest, most DBTs of audio equipment are probably not run fairly. The first thing anyone running such a test should do is screen the participants to determine their hearing accuity. No point in buying expensive cables (or anything else expensive in audio equipment) if you are hearing impaired. If the slight differences do exist, the first step would be to find out if the people with the sharpest ears can hear them. Then they can test and discuss the implications for the rest of us.

I am always astonished that so many people who advocate the purchase and use of expensive audio cables because of differences in linear electrical properties such as capacitance and inductance don't understand that all they are doing is changing the frequency response of their sound systems, yet would reject the use of tone controls or equalizers which perform exactly the same function in almost exactly the same way except that they do it cheaply, reliably, predictably, and controllably.

E-Stat
07-04-2004, 06:32 AM
I am always astonished that so many people who advocate the purchase and use of expensive audio cables because of differences in linear electrical properties such as capacitance and inductance don't understand that all they are doing is changing the frequency response of their sound systems, yet would reject the use of tone controls or equalizers which perform exactly the same function in almost exactly the same way except that they do it cheaply, reliably, predictably, and controllably.
The difference lies entirely with "almost exactly" I find prevention of an audio anomaly far superior to correction after the fact, especially when the "cure" involves the introduction of an otherwise superfluous complex circuit. Remember Occam's Razor? Adding an active tone control stage to "reboost" the upper frequency rolloff experienced when using high capacitance cables between my attenuators and power amp is not an elegant solution. BTW, using cables of known capacitance is also reliable, predictable, and controllable. I'll concede only the "cheaply". It all depends upon how many IC chips you want in your signal path and how much resolution you wish to sacrifice.

rw

skeptic
07-04-2004, 06:57 AM
How about using a bass boost and a treble cut for your phonograph cartridge to compensate for the treble boost and bass cut in the recording? That's what the RIAA curve and microgroove recording is all about. How many gain stages did you say there were in that monster 48 channel recording console, the master tape deck, the remastering deck, and in the cutter console? 30? 50?

E-Stat
07-04-2004, 07:10 AM
How about using a bass boost and a treble cut for your phonograph cartridge to compensate for the treble boost and bass cut in the recording?
Perhaps you need brushing up on the definition of "superfluous".

BTW, the RIAA example is the exact opposite of the scenario I described. Do you think the sonics of LPs would be as good if it were the highs that were initially cut and later boosted? You will get nothing but agreement from me concerning the cumulative sins of gaggles of ICs and gain stages used in most studio recordings. I greatly prefer the sonics of minimally miked and signal-simple recordings. That philosophy most certainly carries over downstream to my music system as well. I have yet to meet a perfect gain stage.

rw

skeptic
07-04-2004, 07:20 AM
"I have yet to meet a perfect gain stage."

Perhaps you should go back to an Edison wax cylinder phonograph. They had NO gain stages. Ony one microphone. And they used horns. RGA and Benil's favorite.

E-Stat
07-04-2004, 07:25 AM
"Perhaps you should go back to an Edison wax cylinder phonograph. They had NO gain stages.
Or, choice "B", eliminate UNNECESSARY circuitry designed to fix preventable problems.

rw

skeptic
07-04-2004, 07:44 AM
Or C, rely on 75 years of advances in electronic and electrical engineering that has helped transforme the world of outdoor plumbing, horse drawn carriages, telegraphs, crackly old telephones, wooden bi-planes, and medicine show remedies into the space age, the computer age, genetic cloning, the internet age. Why not try the best technology has to offer instead of rejecting all of it the way some people do. You can't power an electrostatic speaker system with an SET and gas and oil heat beat woodburing stoves and fireplaces for comfort every time. It's also nice not to have to go out to the well for water every day. If your electrostatic speaker has a high end that rolls off, why not try a professional equalizer to boost it back up. It's the same kind the recording engineers who made 98 percent of the recordings you listen to used when they made them and you will get exactly what you need, not a drop more or a drop less.

E-Stat
07-04-2004, 08:06 AM
If your electrostatic speaker has a high end that rolls off, why not try a professional equalizer to boost it back up. It's the same kind the recording engineers who made 98 percent of the recordings you listen to used when they made them and you will get exactly what you need, not a drop more or a drop less.
In your sweeping historical saga, you completely missed the point. I guess it is my fault that I thought you understood what I meant when I talked of an HF rolloff when using attenuators directly to amplifiers in lieu of a preamp. Lemme help you out here.

When you have a source like a CDP driving a power amp directly through a relatively high impedance attenuator (eliminating the superfluous line stage, i.e. unnecessary, not needed, redundant, not required, non-essential), then capacitance comes into play as a possible source of high frequency rolloff. The way to PREVENT any roll off is to minimize the capacitance through the use of short and unfortunately, more expensive cables. As opposed to introducing an otherwise unnecessary tone control stage to counter the effect after the fact. My speakers have nothing to do with this phenomena. They measure +/- 2 db from 28-20khz. The result is greater resolution and improved soundstaging.

rw

skeptic
07-04-2004, 08:43 AM
If you put your CDP half the distance to the power amp, you can have twice the capacitance per foot and still come out with the same overall capacitance. Of course that capacitance won't equal a hill of beans difference if the CDP output is an emmitter follower or dare I say it, a cathode follower if it is a tube CDP. Of course, the higher the input impedence of the amp, the less difference the capacitance makes anyway. Why not get a power amp or a CDP with a volume control of its own and then you can eliminate that expensive "passive preamp" altogether. Hey, how about a power amp with a CDP built in two inches away.

E-Stat
07-04-2004, 09:41 AM
If you put your CDP half the distance to the power amp, you can have twice the capacitance per foot and still come out with the same overall capacitance.
Because it is impractical. The IC run from CDP to attenuator is 0.5 meter and from attenuator to amps is one meter as is. Since the one meter run doesn't reach the preamp, I have separate 2 meter ICs going from pre to power for when I use vinyl. Audio Research preamp on top, DIY attenuators in middle and GamuT CDP on bottom. Boy it sure is dusty back there!
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/front_rack.jpg">
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/side_rack.jpg">
<img src="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/images/audio/behind_rack.jpg">


Why not get a power amp or a CDP with a volume control of its own and then you can eliminate that expensive "passive preamp" altogether.
Great suggestion. Do tell me of an amp that is as good as my VTLs with some. I know of better CDPs with gain controls, but the least expensive runs about $5k more.



Hey, how about a power amp with a CDP built in two inches away.
Physical impossibility using tube monoblocks.

rw

DMK
07-06-2004, 11:52 AM
3 - Because no one is going to change the other persons mind.

I guess then you haven't read DMK's message where his mind was changed?
And the countless private mails and ones who never post?
You just cannot claim what you are claiming.

4- "God so loved the world
That He gave His one and only Son (Jesus),
That whosoever believes in Him
Will not perish but have everlasting life." - John 3:16


OK, that is what that passage has to say. And? It must be so? Based on one book? That book prooves itself?
Or, there is external evidence? Good luck, enjoy your faith.

Mtry, in fairness, the posts by yourself and like-minded others really didn't change my mind. They did, however, give me the impetus to test cables myself. As you know, I heard no differences but I'm still not prepared to state unequivocally that the cables that come with Pioneer receivers are completely transparent. That doesn't stop me from poking a little harmless fun at cable believers, though. :)

As for the biblical passage, I'll always remember one thing my father said. He was a minister before he retired. He said "there are precious few atheists in a foxhole and even fewer in an intensive care ward." That proves nothing, of course but in his experience, even the disbelievers in those wards pray like crazy...just in case! :D

Monstrous Mike
07-06-2004, 12:11 PM
He said "there are precious few atheists in a foxhole and even fewer in an intensive care ward." :D
My father always said: "Never share a foxhole with a guy who is braver than you are".

DMK
07-06-2004, 03:05 PM
My father always said: "Never share a foxhole with a guy who is braver than you are".

Nor crazier!

On the topic of cables and, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the poster who is also the guitarist who said if cables sounded different, you'd have noticed it with guitar cables? If you are (and this may sound stupid in light of the above) what's a good guitar cable that reduces hum? I just bought my son a guitar and amp at his request and we get horrible hum! Is there a cable you've used that reduces or eliminates this? Thanks.

ToddB
07-09-2004, 10:46 PM
The difference is that I qualify my comments with respect to the system involved. You make unsupported blanket claims. Which is indeed valid for the majority of folks asking what cable they should use with their Onkyo receiver.

rw
Not necessarily, since I've had these speaker cables:

14 AWG zip cord
XLO ER-14
Kimber Kable KWIK-16
Kimber Kable 4PR

and these interconnects:

Radio Shack Gold
XLO Twinax Plus
Kimber Kable Tonik

in this system:

Onkyo TX-8211 receiver
Sony CDP-XE500 CD player
Paradigm Titan or Mini Monitor speakers
Paradigm PDR-8 or PDR-12 subwoofer

and it was easy enough to hear differences between the cables, even at this low level of resolution.

ToddB
07-09-2004, 11:03 PM
Nor crazier!

On the topic of cables and, correct me if I'm wrong, but aren't you the poster who is also the guitarist who said if cables sounded different, you'd have noticed it with guitar cables? If you are (and this may sound stupid in light of the above) what's a good guitar cable that reduces hum? I just bought my son a guitar and amp at his request and we get horrible hum! Is there a cable you've used that reduces or eliminates this? Thanks.
You might check out Evidence Audio's guitar cables and see if they help with your problem. Their website is here: http://www.evidenceaudio.com/

E-Stat
07-10-2004, 04:40 AM
... and it was easy enough to hear differences between the cables, even at this low level of resolution.
Didn't mean to slight your system, but I was taking a conservative approach for the theorists and parrots here who don't get it.

rw

Norm Strong
07-10-2004, 12:41 PM
An impressive looking setup E-Stat. What is that little box with two knobs just below the preamp?

E-Stat
07-10-2004, 02:22 PM
An impressive looking setup E-Stat. What is that little box with two knobs just below the preamp?
Thanks, Norm.

It is a Para-Metal enclosure with a pair of DACT CT-2 stepped attenuators for use with the CDP. I rather like its passing resemblance to the Levinson JC-2. While my Audio Research SP-9MKIII is a nice preamp, it's line stage shrinks the soundstage and reduces resolution as compared with not using it at all. I use the preamp for my vinyl source only for where its high gain is useful with a MC cartridge.

Similarly, I use a $15 DIY Radio Shack parts-sourced attenuator box in my garage system between a Pioneer PD-54 and a Threshold Stasis 3 amp driving a pair of second gen Advents. It uses another pair of spare ARC knobs that ironically cost more than the attenuator itself!

rw

RobotCzar
07-12-2004, 02:55 PM
If you're not on the fence you're wrong. Fact = no one has proven an audible difference with DBT's --- FACT = DBTs are not the answer in psychological testing. Therefore, both sides will never solve the issue because both sides do not understand psychological testing or validity. One side uses no science to back up their claim and the other side uses science ineptly to discredit the other. A DBT in its very definition cannot prove A=B no matter how they want to weasal around it that is a fact.

Thus you better be on the fence.

What is the source of your misinformation? DBT is the ONLY scientifically acceptable way to test perception. No scientific test can "proove" anything, but it certainly is useful in determining that people can't generally distinguish cables (IC or speaker). They, like the base note writer, SAY they can, but they simply can't when levels are matched and they don't know which is which by looking.

ToddB
07-12-2004, 04:49 PM
Didn't mean to slight your system, but I was taking a conservative approach for the theorists and parrots here who don't get it.

rw
I know, I just didn't want anyone thinking that they had to resign themselves to using crappy cables because their gear isn't good enough. I've replaced cables in a system that consisted of a mass market and low cost receiver and CD player, and 15-20 year old Pioneer full-range speakers, and the improvements over the old cables were still audible and worthwhile. What's great is that non-audiophiles who've heard these systems before and after the cable changes have also been able to hear the improvements with the new cables. I guess nobody had ever told them that they weren't allowed to hear any audible improvements from just a cable change.

mtrycraft
07-12-2004, 09:12 PM
What's great is that non-audiophiles who've heard these systems before and after the cable changes have also been able to hear the improvements with the new cables. I guess nobody had ever told them that they weren't allowed to hear any audible improvements from just a cable change.

I suppose this is somehow better than a testimonial on TV? Why would they be exepmt from human gullibility? Or the basic humand need for changes whether one took place or not?
I don't suppose you confirmed this observation with bias controlled listening, right?

ToddB
07-13-2004, 12:29 AM
I suppose this is somehow better than a testimonial on TV? You are free to give my comments as much or as little credence as you like.


Why would they be exepmt from human gullibility? Or the basic humand need for changes whether one took place or not? Why would they be exempt from acknowledging reality is the more relevant question. As to how any "basic humand need" factored into what they heard, I'm not as comfortable playing freelance psychologist as you apparently are, so I won't venture a guess. I suppose you'll have to ask them if you really want to know.


I don't suppose you confirmed this observation with bias controlled listening, right? No, my bias prevents me from being that anal about evaluating the sound of audio components.

mtrycraft
07-13-2004, 08:47 PM
Why would they be exempt from acknowledging reality is the more relevant question.

That is the question. Acknowlidging reality is not easy at times. Some just cannot accept this and believe that every experience is reality. Wrong.


As to how any "basic humand need" factored into what they heard, I'm not as comfortable playing freelance psychologist as you apparently are, so I won't venture a guess.

No need to guess. Just a bit of knowledge on human perceptions, human belief system, bias, gullibility, etc.

henry lee
11-09-2010, 02:27 PM
I to have heard noticeable difference's when changinging from a heavy gauge monster cable to a higher end cable. When swapping out the monster with kimberkable the differece's were immediate(dependant on cable line). The soundstage opened up and the bass cleaned up,with pitch instead of the boom that the monster offered.However, the cable cannot produce miracle's. The rest of your component's should be up for the task at hand aswell.Remember ,your system is only as good as your weakest link.:9:

JohnMichael
11-09-2010, 03:40 PM
I to have heard noticeable difference's when changinging from a heavy gauge monster cable to a higher end cable. When swapping out the monster with kimberkable the differece's were immediate(dependant on cable line). The soundstage opened up and the bass cleaned up,with pitch instead of the boom that the monster offered.However, the cable cannot produce miracle's. The rest of your component's should be up for the task at hand aswell.Remember ,your system is only as good as your weakest link.:9:


Welcome and I agree cables can make a difference. Of course this thread is very old. You might want to start a new thread.
c

atomicAdam
11-10-2010, 07:39 PM
yes, this is an old thresd... but

the best cables should get out of the way of the sound.