Does more power=Better Sound?

[sjtm]

I have managed to stop spending money on equipment (for the moment) and am enjoying my current setup quite a lot. However, I keep wondering whether the amount of power delivery of my amp is holding back the potential of my speakers. My amp is a Marantz pm8005 integrated delivering 70WPC @8ohm /100wpc@4ohms. The speakers are Focal 836V with an sensitivity of 92db @8ohm which drops down to 3ohm at 110hz ( and I believe stays below 4 ohm though around 500hz based on measurements of its sucessor, the Focal Aria 936).

My listening room is not very large ( but oddly shaped L configuration). Seating position is nearfield - about 8' from speakers. I am not trying to attain more volume - just wondering if I would obtain more resolution and detail at lower volume as these speakers seem to really open up at higher listening levels, but some resolution is lost with the volume low. Perhaps this is just the nature of any loudspeaker, but if an amp change is a way to improve this, I could use some guidance. Thanks

[blackraven]

More power sometimes helps with better sound. Higher power can help with dynamics at high and low volumes but it has to be clean high power. What you are experiencing at lower volumes is typical. There is typically a drop off in dynamics. The preamp also plays a role in this. I have a Pass amp that is 500wpc at 4 ohms. It sounded great at low volumes and was very dynamic when I used a Pass preamp. I sold the Pass preamp and bought BAT preamp that cost $3K more. The BAT sounds better in every way and it is much more dynamic at normal and loud volumes but at low volumes the Pass had it beat dynamically.

Amps also make a difference. The AVA HiFi R series amps sound great at low volumes.
Where high current and high watt amps come into play is in their ability to deliver the power cleanly and immediately when needed without any strain or distortion. They seem to hit harder.

Keep in mind that most speakers sound their best at medium to medium loud volumes.

[Mr Peabody]

More power with all things being equal will not provide more detail or resolution.

I think what is happening, as the volume gets raised it's easier for you to hear detail. Does the 8005 have a "loudness" control? This is sometimes added to gear to compensate for what you are experiencing. Some are even variable. If so, turn it on while listening at low levels.

Usually a high current amp will drive the speakers better at lower levels, you will know a high current amp as they typically will double their power into 4 ohms from the 8 ohm rating. For instance, your amp would do 140 into 4 ohms. The higher current allows the amp to control the drivers better. So generally these amps will sound more powerful and have better bass.

Higher power gives you more headroom, meaning it has reserve power when the music demands more power. This also requires a good power supply and can be achieved with a good bank of capacitance.

Overall resolution and detail usually comes from an amp having better parts or design.

With all that being said, there are certain brands/models of speakers that just sound better with a good shot of power. I would think at 92dB your speaker shouldn't be so bad at lower levels.

If it's just you listening a decent set of headphones could be the answer.

[Mr Peabody]

Looks like no loudness control on the PM8005. You do have a midrange control, you could play with that to see if it helps. On paper Marantz says the 8005 has a "robust" power supply. The problem is there though or you wouldn't have posted. If the Focal are biampable you do have preamp outputs to add a power amp. You also have two sets of speaker terminals, you could try bi-wiring to see if it helps at all.

I did see mention of a "direct" mode which I believe bypasses the tone controls etc. You may want to make sure this is off at low volume as the tone controls will add some richness at lower volume.

[sjtm]

This may be less of a problem than my writing makes it seem. I truly enjoy the overall sound from both analogue and digital sources at normal listeneing levels. At my advanced age, the limitation could be my hearing, not the speakers or amp. But we newbies never know whether throwing more money at the situation yields meaningful results.

I plan to sit tight for now, but have read up on integrated that might represent my "next step. My short list includes:

Pass Labs INT-150. I think this meets the definition of "high Current" amp.

Krell Vanguard

Marantz PM 11s3 - not quite the doubling of power but seems to be a good all in one solution with an integrated phono mm/mc stage

Simaudio Moon 5i - not sure about this or newer versions

Modwright KWI 200

Hegel H200 - local dealer that occasionally gets used and will let you demo at home for a week

Budget option - Marantz PM 15s2 or 14s1

Opinions on any of these options greatly appreciated. I will only be buying used at this point.

[Feanor]

This may be less of a problem than my writing makes it seem. I truly enjoy the overall sound from both analogue and digital sources at normal listeneing levels. At my advanced age, the limitation could be my hearing, not the speakers or amp. But we newbies never know whether throwing more money at the situation yields meaningful results.

I plan to sit tight for now, but have read up on integrated that might represent my "next step. My short list includes:

Pass Labs INT-150. I think this meets the definition of "high Current" amp.

Krell Vanguard

Marantz PM 11s3 - not quite the doubling of power but seems to be a good all in one solution with an integrated phono mm/mc stage

Simaudio Moon 5i - not sure about this or newer versions

Modwright KWI 200

Hegel H200 - local dealer that occasionally gets used and will let you demo at home for a week

Budget option - Marantz PM 15s2 or 14s1

Opinions on any of these options greatly appreciated. I will only be buying used at this point.

The Simaudio model that's more comparable with, say, the Pass INT-150 would be the 700i ... High-end Integrated Amplifier - Integrated Amplifier| Simaudio (http://www.simaudio.com/en/product/16-integrated-amplifier.html)

[blackraven]

If your Marantz has a preamp out, you should consider a used power amp like the Pass X150, X250 or a McCormack DNA. Plinius makes some nice sounding amps and there is one for sale on the Audio Circles forum

FS: Plinius SA-100 MKIII - $1,850 - Execellent Condition DC/MD/VA (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141181.0)


Here is a Pass X150.5 amp-

Pass Labs X150.5 for sale, excellent condition (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136272.0)

And here is a great deal on a used Parasound Halo A21. I own one of these-

Parasound Halo A21 Black (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141141.0)

[Feanor]

If your Marantz has a preamp out, you should consider a used power amp like the Pass X150, X250 or a McCormack DNA. Plinius makes some nice sounding amps and there is one for sale on the Audio Circles forum

FS: Plinius SA-100 MKIII - $1,850 - Execellent Condition DC/MD/VA (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141181.0)


Here is a Pass X150.5 amp-

Pass Labs X150.5 for sale, excellent condition (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=136272.0)

And here is a great deal on a used Parasound Halo A21. I own one of these-

Parasound Halo A21 Black (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=141141.0)

Our OP's Marantz pm8005 has pre-outs but I seriously question whether, with the Focals at 92db sensitivity that he would be well advised to upgrade just for the sake of more power.

Speaker sensitivity and room size are important factors but even more important is how loud a person listens. If your typical listening level is 72 dB that is a very different think than if your usual level is 82 dB -- the latter requires literally 10x the power of the former.

If our OP has a problem with his Marantz pm8005, (a nice modern, mid-range amp), he ought to ask himself exactly what it is. Power might the least of the problem. So, for example, the bigger problem might be that the Marantz doesn't quite have the dynamic contrast (PRaT) that he wants; not all preamp/amp combinations, are necessarily going to deliver this regardless of the power of the amp. (At the time I went from passive to active preamp, my ARC LS9, I was trying out a Forte Mode 5 amp. The Forte sounded utter dull with the passive but improvement with the LS6 was utterly amazing, night to day.)

[Mr Peabody]

It depends on the type of sound you like. I am personally a big Pass fan, it typically has power and control of a Krell but warmer and rich closer to Marantz but better.

I have not heard recent Krell, they used to be iron grip control and hit like a sledge hammer with a neutral sound. I've heard the newer Krell is less cool or analytical sounding.

I am personally not a Sim Audio fan, they are very well built and popular, it's just my taste, I find them to sound "dry". They definitely have a "house" sound, but many brands do. So you have to hear it to decide if it's to your liking.

If you really like your current Marantz, like it's the one, obviously a higher end Marantz would give you more of what you like at a higher quality.

I have no experience with the Hagel or Modwright. The Pass or Krell would give your speakers the current they need to sound decent at lower listening, the Sim would as well.

It may not be on par as the higher end models you are looking at but you may want to consider the Parasound integrated. Don't lt the modest price fool you, it's an excellent value and from what I hear selling like crazy. There are places online that would sell you one with return option if not happy. Just an option, I still think the Pass & Krell would sound better but would he difference warrant the price. If you are looking at used you may want to also look at the Mark Levinson 383.

[blackraven]

I didn't recommend those amps just because of their high power. They all are rated highly and sound good. In addition, they run in Class A for the first 10-20 wpc and they would provide power should the OP decide to get less efficient speakers in the future. They may also help with dynamics at lower volumes. With those Focal's, those amps will be running in Class A the majority of the time.

I agree with Mr. P about the Parasound Intergrated. I own the Parasound Halo A21 along with my Pass. The A21 sounds excellent but it is not on the same playing field at the Pass, although the A21 does have better attack and a crisper sound than the Pass.

[Feanor]

Based on personal experience I'm inclined to agree with Mr Peabody and blackraven that the Pass Labs will be the best sound for most people.

I have a Pass X150.5 and it is a remarkable all-round amp. It has transparency and dynamic contrast; it is the best amp I've owned -- though some were more powerful -- in terms of conveying realistic orchestral weight and bass instrument gravity. If you can find a used Pass X150.5 for US$2500, buy it and be done.

As for the Pass INT-150, its power section is the X150.5, however it has a passive preamp section and some critics have said the it lacks dynamic contract. I haven't heard it but my own experience with passive preamps predisposes me to accept that comment.

I wouldn't discount Class D amps entirely, especially if weight and heat are of any importance. The most popular Class D's these days are based on the Hypex nCore models. Currently receiving some attention is the Merrill Taranis, (see HERE (http://www.merrillaudio.net/taranis.html)), whose MSRP is $2500.

[sjtm]

Managed a lot of listening time this weekend with the house to myself. I really have no complaints regarding sound quality at my preferred listening levels. I am content, but appreciate the guidance on future options. I did miss a good deal on a used Pass Labs INT-150 at $2,600 ( went in an hour of posting). But I plan to take this groups suggestion to look at amp options to pair with my current integrated.

I am intrigued by the Pass Labs products but their website makes it difficult to figure out where one can hear their products. Hopefully I will come across some used equipment in my area.

One other option presented to me was a hybrid tube integrated amp - The Rogue Audio Sphinx and Cronus. Sphinx is a tube preamp with SS amp. The manufacturer does not post rating into 4ohms, but local retailer ( Goodwin High End) was steering me towards this.

[harley .guy07]

I am also the owner of a Pass x150.5 and love it. In fact right now it outpaces the rest of my system hands down as I have not upgraded the rest of the system to let it fully show its potential but I will say that I have never heard a set of Dynaudio Audience speakers sound as good as my setup with the Pass amp. Pass Labs gear for one is designed by arguably the best solid state amplifier designer in history and the sound quality and longevity of these products prove that. I have never heard an amp that personally sounds better than my X150.5 other than upper level Pass amps. Another thing to consider is many people with be on a upgrade cycle until they discover Pass Labs and they incorporate one into their system only to find out that they have found their "ultimate sound" amplifier and they are done, they can concentrate on the other aspects of their system because they have all the amplifier they will ever need. That is basically where I am at now.

[blackraven]

Many of us here on AR bought Pass amps based on 1 or 2 peoples experience with them. We bought them without hearing them. The thing with a used Pass amp is that you can usually turn around and sell it for what you paid for it.