Impulse purchase - now I need guidance

[sjtm]

After spending the last few months putting together a modest but thoroughly enjoyable SACD based system, I gave into an impulse to see whether I would enjoy vinyl as much as these little silver discs. I came upon what I thought was a very good deal on a turntable - a nearly new, pristine Music Hall MMF 9.1. The owner had replaced the stock Goldring Eroica LX cartridge with a Grado Prestige Gold. $800 later and I am just now realizing how little I know. I neglected to ask the seller why he chose this cartridge ( I think you can buy this TT without a cart and then choose your own preference). So a few questions:


I plan to use this with my Marantz PM8005 integrated amp, which has a MM (moving magnet?) phono input. Does this mean I am limited to moving magnet cartridges?


I have read the Grado website, and I cannot tell whether the Prestige Gold is a MM or MC cartridge or if it is possibly some sort of hybrid. Can anyone clarify?

I also understand there are high output and low output cartridges but no idea what I have and how that impacts its use with my amp?

If the Grado was a poor choice, what would be abetter option within my modest budget?

I splurged on some cables for my system ( Acoustic Zen speaker / innerconects / power cords - all used ). However the included RCA connectors for this TT have an integrated ground wire. Are there aftermarket replacement options for these?

Is vinyl better than SACD's?

I do not own a single album. Any suggestions on which should be my first purchase that will convince me of what makes vinyl so great?

Open to any and all advice. I admit I have some reservations as CD's are a lot less work. If this proves to be less than I hoped, you will likely see this go up for sale. But I am a bit intrigued by the "ritual" of listening to records.

[Mr Peabody]

After spending the last few months putting together a modest but thoroughly enjoyable SACD based system, I gave into an impulse to see whether I would enjoy vinyl as much as these little silver discs. I came upon what I thought was a very good deal on a turntable - a nearly new, pristine Music Hall MMF 9.1. The owner had replaced the stock Goldring Eroica LX cartridge with a Grado Prestige Gold. $800 later and I am just now realizing how little I know. I neglected to ask the seller why he chose this cartridge ( I think you can buy this TT without a cart and then choose your own preference). So a few questions:


I plan to use this with my Marantz PM8005 integrated amp, which has a MM (moving magnet?) phono input. Does this mean I am limited to moving magnet cartridges?
* Not really, you can use Moving Magnet or what is called a high output Moving Coil. The High output moving coil has a high enough output signal to work with a moving magnet input.

I have read the Grado website, and I cannot tell whether the Prestige Gold is a MM or MC cartridge or if it is possibly some sort of hybrid. Can anyone clarify?
* I would need to look into this. Grado has it's fans and a good cart but more toward the warm lush side of the sound spectrum.
I also understand there are high output and low output cartridges but no idea what I have and how that impacts its use with my amp?
* see above 1st answer
If the Grado was a poor choice, what would be abetter option within my modest budget?
* cart is like any equipment, it's a matter of choice. So it depends on what type of sound you like. Ortofon has a wide variety of carts and generally a good value and more toward a neutral lively sound.
I splurged on some cables for my system ( Acoustic Zen speaker / innerconects / power cords - all used ). However the included RCA connectors for this TT have an integrated ground wire. Are there aftermarket replacement options for these?
* Ground wire won't make that much difference, don't worry about it.
Is vinyl better than SACD's?
* That's something only you can decide. I personally like both and each have a different presentation. More importantly there are really too many variables to ever answer that question.
I do not own a single album. Any suggestions on which should be my first purchase that will convince me of what makes vinyl so great?
* Buy a title you like and to impress get it on a 180 to 200 gram resent pressing. These aren't cheap, but you asked :)
Open to any and all advice. I admit I have some reservations as CD's are a lot less work. If this proves to be less than I hoped, you will likely see this go up for sale. But I am a bit intrigued by the "ritual" of listening to records.
* You bought a nice table, I think you should be impressed with the sound. I'd find some one with some set up experience to check the table or do some internet searches and reading on how a table is set up and adjusted. Michael Fremer of Stereophile has a DVD you can buy and many YouTube videos.

[Jack in Wilmington]

My Music Hall dealer sells the MMF 9.1 for $2195 with the Goldring Eroica LX installed or you can get it without a cartridge for $1995. Considering that on Needle Doctor that cartridge sells for $795, that sounds like a good deal. The guy you bought your TT from replaced the Goldring with a $260 Grado which on paper seems like a downgrade to me. That may be reflected in the $800 selling price. What are you musical tastes? This may help us in choosing some nice sounding vinyl for your new table.

[JohnMichael]

Congrats on the table and cartridge at a great price. The Grado, a MM derivative, will work very well with the MM input on your integrated amp. A low output moving coil would not so enjoy the Grado. Being new to vinyl is when accidents happen to stylus and cantilever and the Grado has an easily replaceable stylus assembly. The Grado is reported to track well in the arm on your table and when a Grado is performing well the Grado magic with female voices is incredible.

Enjoy the combination and spend your time selecting and listening to vinyl. I think right now you have a very respectable turntable/cartridge so just enjoy.

[sjtm]

My Music Hall dealer sells the MMF 9.1 for $2195 with the Goldring Eroica LX installed or you can get it without a cartridge for $1995. Considering that on Needle Doctor that cartridge sells for $795, that sounds like a good deal. The guy you bought your TT from replaced the Goldring with a $260 Grado which on paper seems like a downgrade to me. That may be reflected in the $800 selling price. What are you musical tastes? This may help us in choosing some nice sounding vinyl for your new table.

I purchased a set of speakers from the same person in the past and knew he was a serious audiophile. He had decided to go "all digital" and said he was "too lazy" to fuss with vinyl . He bought the TT in June and keeps all his gear in pristine condition. His current setup is quite impressive and I am sure costs more than many new cars. Based on this I assumed he thought the Grado was a good complement to the TT and was not bought based on cost alone. but his other equipment is totally different than my little amp. In my enthusiasm, I simply neglected to ask him his thought process.

[sjtm]

Congrats on the table and cartridge at a great price. The Grado, a MM derivative, will work very well with the MM input on your integrated amp. A low output moving coil would not so enjoy the Grado. Being new to vinyl is when accidents happen to stylus and cantilever and the Grado has an easily replaceable stylus assembly. The Grado is reported to track well in the arm on your table and when a Grado is performing well the Grado magic with female voices is incredible.

Enjoy the combination and spend your time selecting and listening to vinyl. I think right now you have a very respectable turntable/cartridge so just enjoy.

Thanks for the encouragement. At the price I paid, I have no buyer's remorse as I am sure I can recover my costs if this becomes a failed experiment.

I am guessing from your description that the cartridge is compatible with the phono stage on my Marantz amp. I probably will not get to set this up until at least the weekend, so no telling until then what the result will be.

[sjtm]

My music tastes are somewhat varied, but most of my recent purchases are of artists I was not familiar with until I began reading about audiophile equipment last summer. I tried many of the albums that reviewers used as demo discs, such as Ernie Watts, Diana Krall, Gwinneth Herbert, Sara K, Mighty Sam McClain, Kelly Joe Phelps, Michael Hedges as well as better recordings of past favs such as Dylan, Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Randy Newman, Norah Jones, Imogen Heap, Junior Wells, Charlie Musselwhite, Mark Knopfler, Elvis Costello, James Brown, Little Feat, Lucinda Williams. I also purchased several well regarded classical recordings on various labels including Vaughn Williams, Copland, Beethoven, Berwald, Strauss, Messiaen ( the best of these was the Jung Trio performing Dvorak).

I would like my first LP to be one that most regard as having unquestionably the best fidelity, so that I can establish something of a benchmark in the sonic quality potential of my system. I do not mind duplicating something I own in CD. Fitting into one of the above genres would be preferred - I certainly enjoy female vocals, acoustic jazz, 70's rock etc. Any suggestions?

[Jack in Wilmington]

My music tastes are somewhat varied, but most of my recent purchases are of artists I was not familiar with until I began reading about audiophile equipment last summer. I tried many of the albums that reviewers used as demo discs, such as Ernie Watts, Diana Krall, Gwinneth Herbert, Sara K, Mighty Sam McClain, Kelly Joe Phelps, Michael Hedges as well as better recordings of past favs such as Dylan, Dire Straits, Steely Dan, Randy Newman, Norah Jones, Imogen Heap, Junior Wells, Charlie Musselwhite, Mark Knopfler, Elvis Costello, James Brown, Little Feat, Lucinda Williams. I also purchased several well regarded classical recordings on various labels including Vaughn Williams, Copland, Beethoven, Berwald, Strauss, Messiaen ( the best of these was the Jung Trio performing Dvorak).

I would like my first LP to be one that most regard as having unquestionably the best fidelity, so that I can establish something of a benchmark in the sonic quality potential of my system. I do not mind duplicating something I own in CD. Fitting into one of the above genres would be preferred - I certainly enjoy female vocals, acoustic jazz, 70's rock etc. Any suggestions?

I have three Steely Dan albums, "Can't Buy A Thrill", "Aja", and "Gaucho" all are new purchases on 180 gram vinyl and sound great. I have Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony on vinyl but I do enjoy the DVD with Michael Tilson Thomas leading the San Francisco Symphony's rendition better. Recently I've been spinning Jethro Tull's "Thick As A Brick" as I have the 40th Anniversary vinyl box set which includes TAAB 2. If you're a Tull fan, this will make the hair on the back of your neck stand up. Hope when you dip your toe in the vinyl pool, you like it.

[Mr Peabody]

take a listen to Lyn Stanley | International Recording Artist (http://www.lynstanley.com) her recordings are audiophile recordings for audiophiles.

Patricia Barber albums are all stunning. My favorite as a whole is Modern Cool.

The Clearaudio LP of Ozone Percussion Group is outstanding.

Japanese recordings generally are very high quality, they seem to keep recording an art opposed to in the U.S. most is mass market show me the money accept for specialty for audiophile type labels.

[sjtm]

take a listen to Lyn Stanley | International Recording Artist (http://www.lynstanley.com) her recordings are audiophile recordings for audiophiles.

Patricia Barber albums are all stunning. My favorite as a whole is Modern Cool.

The Clearaudio LP of Ozone Percussion Group is outstanding.

Japanese recordings generally are very high quality, they seem to keep recording an art opposed to in the U.S. most is mass market show me the money accept for specialty for audiophile type labels.

Thanks - I went all in on Patricia Barber - Modern Cool, Companion, Distortion of Love - all great. Perhaps Verse, Smash or Nightclub on vinyl. I will hunt down Ozone Percussion Group.

[blackraven]

Congrats on a very good TT. You will eventually want to upgrade the cartridge and phono preamp to get the best sound.

Vinyl just sounds different compared to digital. It is smoother and generally much more satisfying. But bad vinyl just like bad digital recordings sound bad.

I have an audiophile friend who is in his early 30's and he is heavily into computer digital music. He had never heard vinyl until he came over to my house and he fell in love with vinyl and how it sounds. He is now wanting a TT.

I have to say that good digital is very satisfying especially since I discovered that computer based music with an excellent player like "Bug Head" (which makes JRiver sound low fi and HQ Player sound mid fi in comparison) and a great DAC blows SACD out of the water and it can give Vinyl a run for the money.

[sjtm]

Congrats on a very good TT. You will eventually want to upgrade the cartridge and phono preamp to get the best sound.

Vinyl just sounds different compared to digital. It is smoother and generally much more satisfying. But bad vinyl just like bad digital recordings sound bad.

I have an audiophile friend who is in his early 30's and he is heavily into computer digital music. He had never heard vinyl until he came over to my house and he fell in love with vinyl and how it sounds. He is now wanting a TT.

I have to say that good digital is very satisfying especially since I discovered that computer based music with an excellent player like "Bug Head" (which makes JRiver sound low fi and HQ Player sound mid fi in comparison) and a great DAC blows SACD out of the water and it can give Vinyl a run for the money.


Damn - now I have to learn about DAC's and Bug Heads. This can get costly.

[blackraven]

Bug Head is a free program that processes music and brings out the best in it. It was developed by a Japanese genius. There are other programs such as JRiver, HQ Player and several others. Most you have to pay for. JR has the best music library for cataloging your music. It does other things like burning and ripping your music. These programs allow you to up convert your music to hi rez. I have not used all of the programs but from my experience and to the experience of others, Bug Head is way above the rest.

Bug Head requires a computer with a little horse power. You can run it with a good I-3 processor and 4 gigs of ram. It is a ram intensive program and it sounds its best with 8 gigs or higher (note it still sounds great with 4gigs, I just upgraded to 16 from 8 and it does improve the sound). BH also recommends a quad core I-7. I was using a computer with an I-3 that runs at 2.5gHz and 4 gb ram and it ran well. I now have a computer with a 5th gen mobile I-7 which is only a dual core and I have not noticed any difference in sound. You probably can run it with an older high end dual or quad core cpu.

Bug head (http://oryaaaaa.world.coocan.jp/bughead/)


Infinity Blade HQ (Bug Head Emperor) worth trying - Computer Audio - JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows (http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1553-infinity-blade-hq-bug-head-emperor-worth-trying/)

[sjtm]

Bug Head is a free program that processes music and brings out the best in it. It was developed by a Japanese genius. There are other programs such as JRiver, HQ Player and several others. Most you have to pay for. JR has the best music library for cataloging your music. It does other things like burning and ripping your music. These programs allow you to up convert your music to hi rez. I have not used all of the programs but from my experience and to the experience of others, Bug Head is way above the rest.

Bug Head requires a computer with a little horse power. You can run it with a good I-3 processor and 4 gigs of ram. It is a ram intensive program and it sounds its best with 8 gigs or higher (note it still sounds great with 4gigs, I just upgraded to 16 from 8 and it does improve the sound). BH also recommends a quad core I-7. I was using a computer with an I-3 that runs at 2.5gHz and 4 gb ram and it ran well. I now have a computer with a 5th gen mobile I-7 which is only a dual core and I have not noticed any difference in sound. You probably can run it with an older high end dual or quad core cpu.

Bug head (http://oryaaaaa.world.coocan.jp/bughead/)


Infinity Blade HQ (Bug Head Emperor) worth trying - Computer Audio - JPLAY - hi-end audio player for Windows (http://jplay.eu/forum/index.php?/topic/1553-infinity-blade-hq-bug-head-emperor-worth-trying/)

I am now bleeding from my ears. Luddites are more technically sophisticated than I am. I do have a four year old nephew that might be able to help me navigate this. Gaming for me generally involved quarters, flippers and not going tilt. But I will start reading up on this.

[blackraven]

If you need help with computer programs, let me know. Also, if you are interested in a DAC (which you will need if you want to get into computer music) or if you want to rip your non SACD Cd's to your computer and run them through a program like Bug Head which will markedly improve the sound I would be glad to help.

[sjtm]

If you need help with computer programs, let me know. Also, if you are interested in a DAC (which you will need if you want to get into computer music) or if you want to rip your non SACD Cd's to your computer and run them through a program like Bug Head which will markedly improve the sound I would be glad to help.

Thanks for the offer. This whole audio journey started with the purchase of a FIIO X3 and a pair of Sennheiser 598's last spring. Shortly thereafter I learned about lossless files and transferred about 200 CD's to my computer in this format, as well as to the FIIO. I then found a great deal on a pair of Sennheiser HD700's and also purchased a JDS Labs O2+ODAC that I used between my laptop and HP's. Sound was fantastic, but I felt constrained by the setup, so began my search to put together a modest loudspeaker based system. I currently use the HD700's through my IA when the family says I am too loud.

I believe my Marantz SA8004 SACD player also has a built in DAC. It has a USB port on the front. I also purchased a Marantz PM7005 which definitely has a built in DAC, but I have lent it to a friend who has decided he wants a system too. I replaced it with a PM8005.

Perhaps I have an ability to listen to lossless files through the equipment I have. Not sure how head Bug integrates into all this though. My laptop is I3 based with , I believe, 4G of RAM. I just am not sure what the difference is between "Hi Rez" and Lossless file - I know the lossless take up a bunch of space, as I could only get about half as much capacity on the 64gb card in my FIIO.

[JoeE SP9]

All CD and SACD players have a built in DAC or DAC's. All music files can be compressed. There are lossy and lossless compression schemes. MP3 is a lossy scheme. FLAC is a lossless scheme. Lossless files take up more space because non of the music is discarded. Lossy compression discards some of the music. That allows the files to be smaller.

Hi Rez files are higher resolution (24/96 for example) than standard Redbook CD files (16/44). Either type of file can be compressed with either a lossy or lossless scheme. However, IMO it makes little sense to use lossy compression at home with storage space so inexpensive. OTOH lossy compression for portable listening makes sense to me. I use FLAC for all the music on my music server at home. For portable listening I use MP3. IMO the higher quality of FLAC is pretty much wasted on portable listening. Bear in mind this is from someone who only uses headphones for on the go listening.

[blackraven]

Your computer should be able to run Bug Head. What is the speed of your processor or what model number is your computer. Upgrading ram is cheap but 4gb will work.

Your 8004 has 2 usb inputs and you should be able to run your computer music through it. You may need to download and install ASIO4ALL which is a driver if you are going to use Bug Head unless your 8004 has an ASIO driver. The only way to know is to hook it up.

ASIO4ALL - Universal ASIO Driver (http://www.asio4all.com/)


You will need a decent usb cable. Good budget cables are the Audio Quest Forrest or Cinnamon. Higher end cables are the Wire Word Starlight Red, Shunyata Venum, AQ Carbon to name a few. The WW Starlight 7 Red has a warmer sound and is good for a bright system.

USB Audio, Extension & Power Cable Types available from The Cable Company (http://www.thecableco.com/Catalog/USB-Cable)

[blackraven]

By the way, sorry to turn this into a digital thread. Enjoy your TT as vinyl has a unique and more pleasing sound.

[hifitommy]

mr peabody.....whereas lyn stanley DOES, most assuredly have audiophile QUALITY recordings, her singing is NOT jazz, but more like cabaret. the jazz musicians she has hired are top notch as is Al Schmidt the best available engineer, that doesn't bring her into the realm of jazz. listening to the back up musicians is a treat on otherwise pedestrian singing in lyn's part.

it's too bad, it would be THE all around best package were it not for the singing style. as good as amanda mc broom DTDs are, i don't want any of those either.

[sjtm]

Well the vinyl collection is slowly amassing - about 40 albums and counting. Another dozen on the way. While my goal is to limit my purchases to those albums which will exhibit the best that vinyl has to offer, it is clear I am on the way to replicating thecollection I had as a teenager - with a few exceptions. One that passed me by back then was Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries. Just listended to the new MF lp version. Highly recommended.

[Mr Peabody]

don't be a hater, LOL


mr peabody.....whereas lyn stanley DOES, most assuredly have audiophile QUALITY recordings, her singing is NOT jazz, but more like cabaret. the jazz musicians she has hired are top notch as is Al Schmidt the best available engineer, that doesn't bring her into the realm of jazz. listening to the back up musicians is a treat on otherwise pedestrian singing in lyn's part.

it's too bad, it would be THE all around best package were it not for the singing style. as good as amanda mc broom DTDs are, i don't want any of those either.

[hifitommy]

it's not that i hate her, she is employing excellent musicians (AND Al Schmidt!) and is paying for all the expenses herself including having premium 45rpm vinyl and SACDs made in addition to hi-rez downloads and regular CDs.

is her success based on superior jazz singing? i don't think so. she does a lot of her own PR if not all. so far, i have not purchased any of her discs, i won two of them at the LA/OC Audio Society meeting raffles. the last one, Potions is where she actually propels the material a little and i will probably not buy it because it still falls in the cabaret singer slot.

if you want to really hear some good jazz singing, try Nheena Freelon on for size. in 2013, she performed at THE Show and she was fanTASTIC.

[frenchmon]

Well the vinyl collection is slowly amassing - about 40 albums and counting. Another dozen on the way. While my goal is to limit my purchases to those albums which will exhibit the best that vinyl has to offer, it is clear I am on the way to replicating thecollection I had as a teenager - with a few exceptions. One that passed me by back then was Michael Hedges - Aerial Boundaries. Just listended to the new MF lp version. Highly recommended.


I think I use to have that album back in the day before I sold all my records. I think it was on the Windham Hill label. And if yours is on that label, I can see why its highly recommended by you.....That was an excellent label. Michael Hedges....great musician, died way to young!

[hifitommy]

the standard aerial boundaries LP is just fine without having to goto the added wxpense of the mofi. there are lots of them in the used bins.

[Feanor]

Congrats on a very good TT. You will eventually want to upgrade the cartridge and phono preamp to get the best sound.

Vinyl just sounds different compared to digital. It is smoother and generally much more satisfying. But bad vinyl just like bad digital recordings sound bad.

I have an audiophile friend who is in his early 30's and he is heavily into computer digital music. He had never heard vinyl until he came over to my house and he fell in love with vinyl and how it sounds. He is now wanting a TT.

I have to say that good digital is very satisfying especially since I discovered that computer based music with an excellent player like "Bug Head" (which makes JRiver sound low fi and HQ Player sound mid fi in comparison) and a great DAC blows SACD out of the water and it can give Vinyl a run for the money.

I haven't listened to vinyl for 3-4 years even though my hi-fi experience dates back to the time vinyl and tape were the only options. The TT is somewhere in the basement gathering dust.

Yes, vinyl may sound different from the same recording in digital form. One reason is that the vinyl version is likely mastered differently than the digital. Notoriously, the digital versions are often more compress so that they are more playable on, e.g., portable players.

Personally I listen almost entirely classical music. New classical recordings on vinyl are very rare, i.e. your selection will be very limited if you want to have only vinyl. Anyway, compression is less often used for classical music or used to a lessor extent. High-resolution media make compression technically obsolete.

[blackraven]

Feanor, when I play good vinyl and compare it to the same digital recording of good quality, vinyl wins out even with my humble analog system. Using a 1970's Thorens TD-145, Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge and a Bellari VP-129 phono preamp with a fairly rare Vintage Raytheon 1950's black plate tube.

Vinyl sound more real and it is detailed and smooth at the same time. My analog system has no edge to the music. Even my friends that do not have vinyl are very impressed.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Feanor, when I play good vinyl and compare it to the same digital recording of good quality, vinyl wins out even with my humble analog system. Using a 1970's Thorens TD-145, Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge and a Bellari VP-129 phono preamp with a fairly rare Vintage Raytheon 1950's black plate tube.

Vinyl sound more real and it is detailed and smooth at the same time. My analog system has no edge to the music. Even my friends that do not have vinyl are very impressed.

Some of that I'd attribute to the other first rate equipment that you have. That maybe makes the vinyl sound better than the guy with a VPI Classic TT hooked to a Pioneer receiver running Polk speakers just as an example.

[blackraven]

Some of that I'd attribute to the other first rate equipment that you have. That maybe makes the vinyl sound better than the guy with a VPI Classic TT hooked to a Pioneer receiver running Polk speakers just as an example.


Agreed. I am currently listening to Dire Straits Brothers in Arms on vinyl and the is much punchier and the drums sound more real. Bass seems more dynamic and hits harder than any DAC that I have had in my system and I have had several that cost $3K to $6K in my system.

I would love to have a $2K TT and a $1K phono pre along with a Nagaoka MP-500, Ortofon Black, or Clear Audio Maestro to hear how much better it could be.

[hifitommy]

i have to agree 100% on the dire straits. BIA was my first cd played on the very good magnavox player i got at target for $140! i was in heaven, the BIA cd was WONDERFUL and then one day, in the used pile was the BIA LP. i figured that for a BUCK, it can't be a bad purchase.

i had no expectations but i didn't expect the vinyl to be SO much better than the cd, which STILL was damn good. but there it was. so much more THERE there and yes, more impact.

i did NOT dump my LPs for vinyl, i just figured that like cassette and open reel tape, it was another medium to add to the hifi. many that did dump there LPs made it possible for me to have so many great recordings for cheap.

[JoeE SP9]

i did NOT dump my LPs for vinyl, i just figured that like cassette and open reel tape, it was another medium to add to the hifi. many that did dump there LPs made it possible for me to have so many great recordings for cheap.

You and I! I acquired a lot of LP's from people dumping them for "perfect sound forever".

[frenchmon]

Yeah...and I was the idiot that sold my records and TT back in the day for the evil silver disc. What a shame.

[Feanor]

Perhaps you vinylheads ought to try ripping you LPs to hi-rez digital. I've heard many people report over the years that the rips sound capture the essential quality of vinyl virtually perfectly ... Which tends to demonstrate that the digital / CD difference is largely in the mastering.

And I've always maintained that the sound of individual recordings, as a result of their recording & mastering, make far more difference than the distribution medium. (You are aware that many late LPs were recorded digitally, no?)

Some people feel completely differently than me: they actually enjoy the rituals of handling LPs, viz. pulling the large album sleeves and removing the disc being ever so careful to keep one's fingers of the playing surface, meticulously cleaning the disc before use, destaticing, placing on the TT, perhaps placing the disc weight and/or the dust catching device, lowering ever so carefully the tonearm & cartridge, listening to clicks & pops, ever so carefully raising the tonearm after 20 minutes of listening, destaticing again and/or blowing playtime dust from the disc, replacing the disc in the sleeve being ever so careful to keep fingers off. AND of course the problems of setting up the TT, attaching & adjusting the cartridge and setting tracking force, choosing the right impedance for the phono preamp, and blah yada.

All these things are of ill memory for me, albeit they were and are a joy for others.

I have about 100 LPs lying around still. I've offered to sell them for a buck a piece plus shipping; nobody has taken up the offer.

[sjtm]

Perhaps you vinylheads ought to try ripping you LPs to hi-rez digital. I've heard many people report over the years that the rips sound capture the essential quality of vinyl virtually perfectly ... Which tends to demonstrate that the digital / CD difference is largely in the mastering.

And I've always maintained that the sound of individual recordings, as a result of their recording & mastering, make far more difference than the distribution medium. (You are aware that many late LPs were recorded digitally, no?)

Some people feel completely differently than me: they actually enjoy the rituals of handling LPs, viz. pulling the large album sleeves and removing the disc being ever so careful to keep one's fingers of the playing surface, meticulously cleaning the disc before use, destaticing, placing on the TT, perhaps placing the disc weight and/or the dust catching device, lowering ever so carefully the tonearm & cartridge, listening to clicks & pops, ever so carefully raising the tonearm after 20 minutes of listening, destaticing again and/or blowing playtime dust from the disc, replacing the disc in the sleeve being ever so careful to keep fingers off. AND of course the problems of setting up the TT, attaching & adjusting the cartridge and setting tracking force, choosing the right impedance for the phono preamp, and blah yada.

All these things are of ill memory for me, albeit they were and are a joy for others.

I have about 100 LPs lying around still. I've offered to sell them for a buck a piece plus shipping; nobody has taken up the offer.

I tend to agree that the mastering is a distinguishing factor in SQ vs media. To that end, as a newbie vinyl guy, I have limited my purchases of vinyl to pressings where I can read up on the mastering process befre I buy. I limit myself to new (ie unopened) albums and I doubt my collection will be much more than 100 albums due to this constraint. Essentially if it is digitally mastered, I will seek out the best digital version. I know a couple of digital / analogue albums are in my collection - most of these were gifts and I still enjoy listening to them.

As for the ritual of listening, my wife says it has improved my patience and all the tender care has made me a better lover...

[James Frace]

To the OP, The Grado cartridge is what they call a moving iron cartridge,it's still in the MM designation, but will have a different sound to it. Some say more 3D and tube like. It definitely will give a better sound stage in my opinion. I own 2 Dual turntables that I restored fully. A 1229Q and a 701. I use several different cartridges on them. I have a Stanton 881S MKII, Stanton 881S, Stanton 681EEE with a Jico D6800EEE Shibata, Shure V-15 III with Jico SAS VN35E stylus as well as the original VN35E stylus, Shure 1000E, Shure M91ED, Pickering XV-15 with D4500 Jico shibata stylus, and Ortofon VMS 30E MKII with Jico stylus,Ortofon OM40 and OM30. The Ortofon VMS 30E MKII and Stanton 681EEE are both moving iron cartridges and the rest are moving magnet. In my opinion the MM are slightly laid back a little in the bass department. I find myself coming back to the Ortofon and 681 more than the others as I get a better sound stage and imaging with them. I also use a tube amp.

I would look at half speed issues with records as well as looking at Mobil Fidelity and Music Magic for the type of records you are looking to buy. Also look at discogs and don't limit yourself to only unopened music as you will lose the real quality on vinyl from re-issues that have been tinkered with. Any record that has been "cleaned up" digitally, is now a digital remix and loses that sound quality. Again just my opinion. I just recently got back into vinyl over the last 15 months and after ruining my old collection of over 1200 records,had to start over with only 50 that were salvageable. I now have about 800 and do the same as you, I purchase things that remind me of times gone by. I have 1400+ cds that I uploaded onto my computer and did them in FLAC and put them on an external HD and use the hard drive through JRIVER. But my vinyl is what I find myself playing with more. You'll be surprised by what you can find when going to a Goodwill store or something similar in quality and shape. Invest in a record cleaner as well and make sure to keep your stylus clean and as long as you keep up with things should have a lifetime of listening pleasure.

When and if you get into MC you'll have the choice of low output and high output. You'll need a step up transformer or an external phono pre amp that does both MM/MC or just MC. The only MC I have tried so far is a high output Denon DL-110 and I didn't like it at all. I am however looking into getting a nice low output MC cartridge to try out.

[Mr Peabody]

I know what you mean on remasters. At first listen I really liked the Led Zeppilin remasters Jimmy Page did in 2014, I still do prefer them, but when going back to the old original recording there are some textures missing, I really notice when paying close attention to the acoustic guitar work.

Buyine used LP's is always a gamble, whether they will be noisy. They used to be cheap enough the gamble didn't matter but now that vinyl is coming back, the prices are going up :)

Also, Jim you may want to experiment with better DAC's for your computer playback. Schitt is getting a good rep for making incredible sound on the cheap. A U.S. company.

[hifitommy]

i personally prefer low output MCs and the /schiit phono preamp will do the job VERY nicely at a real bargain price of about $120!

[sjtm]

To the OP, The Grado cartridge is what they call a moving iron cartridge,it's still in the MM designation, but will have a different sound to it. Some say more 3D and tube like. It definitely will give a better sound stage in my opinion. I own 2 Dual turntables that I restored fully. A 1229Q and a 701. I use several different cartridges on them. I have a Stanton 881S MKII, Stanton 881S, Stanton 681EEE with a Jico D6800EEE Shibata, Shure V-15 III with Jico SAS VN35E stylus as well as the original VN35E stylus, Shure 1000E, Shure M91ED, Pickering XV-15 with D4500 Jico shibata stylus, and Ortofon VMS 30E MKII with Jico stylus,Ortofon OM40 and OM30. The Ortofon VMS 30E MKII and Stanton 681EEE are both moving iron cartridges and the rest are moving magnet. In my opinion the MM are slightly laid back a little in the bass department. I find myself coming back to the Ortofon and 681 more than the others as I get a better sound stage and imaging with them. I also use a tube amp.

I would look at half speed issues with records as well as looking at Mobil Fidelity and Music Magic for the type of records you are looking to buy. Also look at discogs and don't limit yourself to only unopened music as you will lose the real quality on vinyl from re-issues that have been tinkered with. Any record that has been "cleaned up" digitally, is now a digital remix and loses that sound quality. Again just my opinion. I just recently got back into vinyl over the last 15 months and after ruining my old collection of over 1200 records,had to start over with only 50 that were salvageable. I now have about 800 and do the same as you, I purchase things that remind me of times gone by. I have 1400+ cds that I uploaded onto my computer and did them in FLAC and put them on an external HD and use the hard drive through JRIVER. But my vinyl is what I find myself playing with more. You'll be surprised by what you can find when going to a Goodwill store or something similar in quality and shape. Invest in a record cleaner as well and make sure to keep your stylus clean and as long as you keep up with things should have a lifetime of listening pleasure.

When and if you get into MC you'll have the choice of low output and high output. You'll need a step up transformer or an external phono pre amp that does both MM/MC or just MC. The only MC I have tried so far is a high output Denon DL-110 and I didn't like it at all. I am however looking into getting a nice low output MC cartridge to try out.

I am enjoying the Grado Gold for now. I did pick up a Dynavector 10x5 cart but still a little intimidated about doing an install on my own.

I have been on a bit of a buying spree in the last two months ( assuming 95 albums count as a spree). In almost all cases, these are both albums I listened to in my youth and that have some or a lot of information about the mastering / pressing quality. Overall they tend to be as gooid as or better representations of the original music than the CD equivalent ( at least in the minds of others). I am close to slowing down at this point , as I have months of listening ahead of me with these new acquisitions.

We do have a pretty decent record venue in our area (Newbury Comics) that buys extensive record collections. That notwithstanding, the better used record are still $9 - $10 dollars (They have $.99 bins but no guarantee of condition). By careful shopping, I am averaging about $18 per album for new records, and, given my investment in source equipment, prefer to have the quietest vinyl I can find. I have hundreds of CD's and quite a few SACd's and XRCD's, most of which have cost between $3 and $10 each, so unless the vinyl sounds "better", I buy the CD.

A few remasters with digital in the chain are included in my recent purchases, but these albums still satisfy my need to " return to my youth". As I recently told my 16 year old daughter ( I was a late bloomer), try to imagine your life without a computer - my generation felt the same about record players. So go spin LZ I and remember the day you brought it home for the first time back in '69.

[James Frace]

If you pick up yourself a digital gram scale as well as a protractor and follow directions on them, you'll do just fine. Watch a few videos on youtube, vinylengine also has good stuff as well as lpgear. I learned how to do a really good install in about 3-4 days of watching and doing. Get a good pair of tweezers,and a good small screwdriver (glasses repair kit is a good starter) and you'll be most of the way there for making tweeks with set ups. Use the tweezers to pull off the contacts and put them on.

[hifitommy]

" I have hundreds of CD's and quite a few SACd's and XRCD's, most of which have cost between $3 and $10 each, so unless the vinyl sounds "better", I buy the CD."

i find that most SACDs sound very close to the standard of LP, and in some cases a safe way of getting the old recordings that, on the available used vinyl, are in rough shape or exorbitantly priced.

XRCD is just carefully remastered CDs (whether sourced from analog tape or digital original) and are not worth the $30 price to me. they should have given that kind of quality in the first place as they didn't have to make the original recording and pay all the musicians and for the venue and equipment.

given a decent vinyl playback system ($500-1000), and i don't mean very high priced ($5-10k) , the vinyl will nearly ALWAYS be the superior sound, more like the real thing, than RBCD. vinyl or sacd will have more of a relaxed, satisfying presentation that one gets from the live performance.

equivalently priced rbcd playback just cannot compete. and don't get me wrong, it's the music first and many recordings just aren't available on vinyl (and vice versa) so cd it will be. just try and find a vinyl copy of Giacomo Gates recording.

[JohnMichael]

i personally prefer low output MCs and the /schiit phono preamp will do the job VERY nicely at a real bargain price of about $120!


My AT F7 is playing "Famous Blue Raincoat" through my Moon 110LP/PSU beautifully. I have the Grado Statement Sonata but I think the less expensive AT F7 bests it.

[02audionoob]

My AT F7 is playing "Famous Blue Raincoat" through my Moon 110LP/PSU beautifully. I have the Grado Statement Sonata but I think the less expensive AT F7 bests it.

Ever since you got that AT F7, I have occasionally hovered over one online...tempted to buy. I'm contemplating it for a Concept I bought used, recently.

[frenchmon]

My AT F7 is playing "Famous Blue Raincoat" through my Moon 110LP/PSU beautifully. I have the Grado Statement Sonata but I think the less expensive AT F7 bests it.

JM.....you do know there is an upgraded Statement Sonata, don't you?