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996turbo
04-28-2004, 07:12 AM
I wanted a title that would get attention and I thought this would be it.

I have not been to this forum in a while but I thought I would see what was going on here over the last year or so.

I started to read the post about what the difference in cd players was. I thought it sounded trollish at first so I started to read. I then came across some postings from Mytrcraft. You guys can go back and read them.

I then started to read some of his other post and came across what he thought about cables.

I will not even argue against those post as there is no reason to argue with some one who either has no experience in listening to different price points in gear, who is deaf, or who is too jealous because he can not afford it. I just refer him to Stereophile where there are always reviews and measurements discussing the difference in sound and measurements of one player to the next

I would really love to see what gear you have. I fully expect to see only stuff that could come from Walmart or sears in your system. If the quality of the sound has nothing to do whatsoever with cost. You should have the cheapest gear possible.

I also expect you to have done no tweaks whatsoever. This would include vibration control, power conditioning or room acoustics.

Mytrcraft you are nothing more than a troll.Tell us exactly what you have. Give us a picture. If you have already done this give me a link. Are you a member of an Audiophile club in your area? if not join up and go and listen.. Better yet come to my house and Listen.

To all those out there looking for advice this is not the type of person you want to listen to. Let your ears be the judge. Go out and listen to all the gear you can. Listen to every price point that is available and you will see. There is more to this hobby than Japanese mass market crap. Do not let people like this ruin the hobby

Pat D
04-28-2004, 07:47 AM
I wanted a title that would get attention and I thought this would be it.

I have not been to this forum in a while but I thought I would see what was going on here over the last year or so.

I started to read the post about what the difference in cd players was. I thought it sounded trollish at first so I started to read. I then came across some postings from Mytrcraft. You guys can go back and read them.

I then started to read some of his other post and came across what he thought about cables.

I will not even argue against those post as there is no reason to argue with some one who either has no experience in listening to different price points in gear, who is deaf, or who is too jealous because he can not afford it. I just refer him to Stereophile where there are always reviews and measurements discussing the difference in sound and measurements of one player to the next

I would really love to see what gear you have. I fully expect to see only stuff that could come from Walmart or sears in your system. If the quality of the sound has nothing to do whatsoever with cost. You should have the cheapest gear possible.

I also expect you to have done no tweaks whatsoever. This would include vibration control, power conditioning or room acoustics.

Mytrcraft you are nothing more than a troll.Tell us exactly what you have. Give us a picture. If you have already done this give me a link. Are you a member of an Audiophile club in your area? if not join up and go and listen.. Better yet come to my house and Listen.

To all those out there looking for advice this is not the type of person you want to listen to. Let your ears be the judge. Go out and listen to all the gear you can. Listen to every price point that is available and you will see. There is more to this hobby than Japanese mass market crap. Do not let people like this ruin the hobby
Whatever mtry's views are (and you don't seem to understand them), ad hominem arguments don't disprove them. You allege he is an idiot, which is a direct ad hominem, and a false one at that and implications about his experience, equipment, and motives. Then you admit you really don't know what his equipment is.

You see, mtry likes to have evidence for claims. Now, evidence is not a concept you seem to understand, since you make all sorts of gratuitous remarks about him. In particular, mtry likes to see evidence for claims of audible differences, where prima facie, the actual differences would likely be so small as to be inaudible.

Stereophile does make measurements of certain equipment. They do make some effort to relate the sound of speakers with measurments and amplifiers with high output impedances (i.e., most tube amps and some SS amps) and occasionally a few other things such as noise and FR). They generally do not publish measurements of the performance of cables and interconnects, for obvious reasons. However, the measurements of good electronics most often does not indicate any audible differences in the sound quality. The alleged differences are left to subjective reviewers who report on their impressions, which being uncontrolled and sighted, are quite unreliable.

Sondek
04-28-2004, 08:19 AM
I wanted a title that would get attention and I thought this would be it.

I have not been to this forum in a while but I thought I would see what was going on here over the last year or so.

I started to read the post about what the difference in cd players was. I thought it sounded trollish at first so I started to read. I then came across some postings from Mytrcraft. You guys can go back and read them.

I then started to read some of his other post and came across what he thought about cables.

I will not even argue against those post as there is no reason to argue with some one who either has no experience in listening to different price points in gear, who is deaf, or who is too jealous because he can not afford it. I just refer him to Stereophile where there are always reviews and measurements discussing the difference in sound and measurements of one player to the next

I would really love to see what gear you have. I fully expect to see only stuff that could come from Walmart or sears in your system. If the quality of the sound has nothing to do whatsoever with cost. You should have the cheapest gear possible.

I also expect you to have done no tweaks whatsoever. This would include vibration control, power conditioning or room acoustics.

Mytrcraft you are nothing more than a troll.Tell us exactly what you have. Give us a picture. If you have already done this give me a link. Are you a member of an Audiophile club in your area? if not join up and go and listen.. Better yet come to my house and Listen.

To all those out there looking for advice this is not the type of person you want to listen to. Let your ears be the judge. Go out and listen to all the gear you can. Listen to every price point that is available and you will see. There is more to this hobby than Japanese mass market crap. Do not let people like this ruin the hobby

My sentiments exactly.

I completely detest someone who throws rocks for over 5,000 FIVE THOUSAND posts, telling people that they are imagining things, they can't possibly hear a difference.

Ther is a very audible difference between a $200 sony and a $700 rega, and again from a $1200 cd player and so on. The diffrences are quite pronounced up to at least the $4,000 price point.

All it takes is a reasonable system (synergy) comprised of decent separates that you would find outside the realm of circuit city.

Modifications can and do wark...like a champ.

Some Tweaks work like a champ-tonality changes.

996turbo
04-28-2004, 08:19 AM
Sometimes you can not have empirical evidence to prove facts. You have to trust your ears. The post that I have read from him do not accept this. There are alot of things in life that are not absolute. I admit I do not know alot about him but I remember from last year the same type of post. There are a majority out there that agree there is a difference in one component to the other. He is all about psychoacoustics and the dbt. Psychology is a powerful thing but if you can not trust yourself who can you trust. I have been in lots of situations where I wanted to believe one thing but heard another. I am sure there are lots of others with similiar stories.

I have been through alot of gear in the past. My favorite Pre and current resident in my ssystem is a Spectral DMC-20 series II. They also make a great cd player. I suggest that those who believe engineering and science has no effect on the sound you get contact Profesor Keith Johnson to discuss it with him. There is better sound out of better gear if you do not believe that then you have not listened to that gear.

I do want to hear from him on this. I would also really like to see what gear he has. My guess is that his system does not have the resolving power to see the effects of cables or better equipment.

Resident Loser
04-28-2004, 08:23 AM
...While mtry can do quite well to handle himself, if you have come and gone from this site you are familiar with his philosophy...no one has to tell you anything re: the gear they may or may not have...it only serves to cloud the issue...just because you or anyone doesn't like my choice of amp or speakers that somehow excludes my take on things?

For instance, in my limited experience with digital I can percieve no substantial difference in CD payers...I enjoy analog...does that mean my opinion is some how limited ONLY to my medium of choice...if anything, as a disinterested third party, my opinon is the least biased and may be the most accurate...

I also think wire is wire...

I also think HT is a blight on the land...

I also think you should have the cheapest gear available...provided it satisfies you...

ALSO...vibration control with analog is a necessity, not a tweak...

Room acoustics, likewise...in fact room acoustics renders all the wire verbiage null and void...

Power conditioning? Regardless of what's happnin' in the grid, what you do within the confines of you home is really gonna' make some difference...Yeah! sure it will...

And listen... to what?...nothing but some rarified audiophile recordings or run-of-the-mill music? FM broadcasts? Vintage 78s of outstanding performances? Are we listening to the music or the equipment? It should be the former.

There is nothing wrong with mass-market cr@p...it's what most actually listen to...and that's part of the point...if chosen with care, a great deal of it sounds quite good...it doesn't require tweaks and power cords and $60/ft wiring suspended on bridges...it requires a decent performance and a happy listener...

jimHJJ(...and while I may not agree with all of what mtry may say or how he says it...ruin the hobby?...he tries to bring it back down to earth...)

FLZapped
04-28-2004, 09:24 AM
I wanted a title that would get attention and I thought this would be it.

Which must mean you're a troll.....




I will not even argue against those post as there is no reason to argue with some one who either has no experience in listening to different price points in gear, who is deaf, or who is too jealous because he can not afford it.


My, my, we are handy with the ad hominem attacks, you're looking more like a troll.....
BTW - Can you substantiate anything you've said, or are you just being gratuitously insulting?



I fully expect to see only stuff that could come from Walmart or sears in your system. If the quality of the sound has nothing to do whatsoever with cost. You should have the cheapest gear possible.

Yeah, you're a troll alright.



I also expect you to have done no tweaks whatsoever. This would include vibration control, power conditioning or room acoustics.

Man if insults were frequent flier miles......



Mytrcraft you are nothing more than a troll.Tell us exactly what you have. Give us a picture. If you have already done this give me a link. Are you a member of an Audiophile club in your area? if not join up and go and listen.. Better yet come to my house and Listen.

Seems to me, you are the only troll here. What difference does HIS equipment make when talking about SOMEONE ELSE'S equipment? What matters is that there is reliable, repeatable evidence of said claim of such equipment being true, or false; Or does that not compute with you?



To all those out there looking for advice this is not the type of person you want to listen to. Let your ears be the judge. Go out and listen to all the gear you can. Listen to every price point that is available and you will see. There is more to this hobby than Japanese mass market crap. Do not let people like this ruin the hobby

Oh, I suppose you are an expert? We should all listen to you? Especially since you haven't said one thing useful and wasted lost of space personally attacking someone else.

Now everybody chant the audiophile mantra:

"truuuuust your eeeeaaaarrrrssss"

-Bruce

FLZapped
04-28-2004, 09:36 AM
Sometimes you can not have empirical evidence to prove facts.

Facts? Which facts? How did it get to be fact without some sort of verifiable and repeatable evidence?


You have to trust your ears. The post that I have read from him do not accept this.

Neither does science. Actually, they do, the problem comes when your brain gets involved and processes the results of ALL sensory inputs(plus stored memories) into what becomes perceived reality.


He is all about psychoacoustics and the dbt.

So is scientific method among other things.



Psychology is a powerful thing but if you can not trust yourself who can you trust. I have been in lots of situations where I wanted to believe one thing but heard another. I am sure there are lots of others with similiar stories.

WOW! You've answered the question yourself! You weren't sure what you really heard, so your brain turned it into something you could understand based on inputs from ALL your active senses and memories......now you understand the whole problem with uncontrolled testing.



I do want to hear from him on this. I would also really like to see what gear he has. My guess is that his system does not have the resolving power to see the effects of cables or better equipment.

Resolving power, ok, so just how do you measure and quantify that? How good is good enough to "hear" what you're talking about? How does it relate to JNDs?

Or are you just repeating some audiophile speak that has no real meaning?

-Bruce

996turbo
04-28-2004, 09:58 AM
I am having a hard time with this topic. I guess it is like a republican trying to talk with a democrat. The point of my post was not to debate the equipment. Everyone has a perception of what they think about wire or power or tweaks. I believe everyone has their right to believe what they want. Mtyr just seems to go on ad nosium about there being no difference in audio gear. If he believes that thats fine but my god every post that some one asks about it he pops up and says it does not matter.I have heard a difference and so has every person who has been to my house. That is all the proof I need. My wife has no psychological tie to any gear and she can hear a difference. These are her rights. Mtyr just sounds like a broken record.

What I meant by resolving power may not be something you are familiar with. It is detail and resolution where you can hear minute changes in your system.

My System
Sony SCD-777es
Spectral DMC-20 SeriesII
Plinius SA-250 MarkIV
B&W N803
PS Audio P300 for front end
PS Audio High Current UO for amp

Wire is Audioquest andVirtual Dynamics it is all plugged in to 2 20 AMP dedicated linesone for the front and the other for the amp.

JSE
04-28-2004, 10:08 AM
Wow, most trolls start out discrete and build their reputation as a troll. This guy said to hell with it and came out firing ala ALDO. His troll career will likely be short lived.

"I am having a hard time with this topic"

No kidding?

"The point of my post was not to debate the equipment."

Your right, it was to attack someone.

"I believe everyone has their right to believe what they want."

As long as you can call them Idiots! Huh?

"My wife has no psychological tie to any gear and she can hear a difference."

Do you blame her? She probably does not want to be called an idiot. '

"Mtyr just sounds like a broken record. "

And you sound like a Troll!


Go Away!

JSE

996turbo
04-28-2004, 10:34 AM
What I posted about him is just as rediculous as alot of his post.I think what gear he has is relevant to what he thinks. If you expect him to take home a high end cd player and hook it up to a luxman receiver into some radioshack speakers then of course he will not hear a difference. Maybe he has never had any really good gear in his house or ever listened to any.
I have been around audio gear for a long time the list of gear I have heard is very extensive. Mtyr has the same comment to make about every thing. It appears that everybody knows his opinion why does he have to have over a thousand post to reiterate what everybody knows he thinks. All I am asking is for you guys to honestly think about what he says. There are alot of people out there who think the opposite from him. Go over to the Asylum and you will hear from veterans in the industry. Those veterans will tell you in great detail what the differences are. Check out my post over there and you will see that I am not a troll. People like Mtyr would be banned after a short time there because his views while his own are not the general concensus and nobody wants to hear the same thing over and over.

I am not saying I am the expert. What I am saying is that neither is he. We all must trust our ears.

If you have not heard a difference in one component to the next you must look at your system, your room, or yourself. Because there is a difference.

The general feeling I get from this website is that there is alot of low to mid fi here while that equipment can sound very good it will never compete with Hi-end gear. The Asylum seems to be a group of people with more Hi end. This may account for people not hearing the differences as readily as those over there.

If after going to a place like Goodwins with your 200 cd player and comparing it to a DCS on a very nice system you do not hear the difference fine. I will bet you will hear a difference. If any of you are in NC I will challenge you to come over with your cd player or RS cables and we will sit down. I bet $ you will hear the difference

woodman
04-28-2004, 12:36 PM
I have been around audio gear for a long time the list of gear I have heard is very extensive.


Oh really? I seriously doubt that you"ve "been around audio gear" anywhere near as many years as yours truly. In fact, I doubt that you've even been alive for half as many years as I've been involved with audio. And as far as the list of gear that you've heard, I doubt that it's anywhere near as extensive as what I've heard through the course of the last 65+ years.


Go over to the Asylum and you will hear from veterans in the industry. Those veterans will tell you in great detail what the differences are.

That's your second mistake ... going to the Asylum. Doesn't that name give you a clue? We'll get to your FIRST mistake in a moment.


I am not saying I am the expert. What I am saying is that neither is he. We all must trust our ears.

THAT is your first (and primary) mistake ... "trusting your ears" is the downfall of those that wander into the audiophile camp. The plain unvarnished truth of the matter is that ALL of our 5 senses operate under the direct influence and control of our ABEs and are therefore not to be trusted with anything! Why do you think that any and all reasonable people that partake in these forums keep saying over and over and over and over and over again - ad infinitum - that sighted testing is totally worthless? The only type of "test" that carries with it any meaning whatsoever is a test where the subject does not know what he is testing while the test goes on.

[QUOTE]
The general feeling I get from this website is that there is alot of low to mid fi here while that equipment can sound very good it will never compete with Hi-end gear.{/QUOTE]

Therein lies your third mistake ... that there actually IS such a thing as "low-fi" and "mid-fi". Those are terms that are strictly the misguided creations of SNOBS that are operating under the intense compulsion to feel "better" about themselves by finding something to look down upon. It's an extensive malady that's tearing apart the very essence of humanity ... the failure to realize that no one is any better (or worse) than anyone else. If you've fallen into that category (which apparently you have) you have my deepest sympathy. You're not alone in this if that's any sort of consolation. There's a plethora of them over at the Asylum.

Now go back to the Asylum where you evidently feel more comfortable. See ya.

996turbo
04-28-2004, 03:32 PM
I do not purchase anything based on price or looks alone. I am 31 years old and started out with NAD, Yamaha, and Boston. I have slowly progressed (at least in my ears)the gear I currently have. I never said I was more experienced than you Mr. Woodman. I am merely stating that the blanket statements that I have read on this site by Mtyrcraft seem different than those I have encountered in my house and others. Along the way the changes I have made in my system were recognized as improvements by those who have no idea what they are looking at or listening to> I realize the psychological impacts of wanting what you have and wanting it to sound the best. When my wife says that some change sounds better or worse I listen.

Lets get to the point here. Mtrycraft says there is no difference in cd players and Wire. I have not read enough of his post to know what he thinks of other gear. I and many others disagree. He has in just about every post I have read disagrees with just about every audio enthusiast I know and have been around. Like I said go to Goodwins with your radio shack cable and $200 cd player and compare it in a worthy system and make the decision yourself.
I do not understand why this is such a hard thing for you guys to understand. You are after all on an audio chat board where the gear is part of the fun of this hobby. I enjoy listening to different things and finding the specific synergy in the gear so I can get as close to the music as possible.
If there is no difference in your percieved quality of the sound out of all the gear out there so be it. But do not tell all those out there that believe there is a difference that no difference exist.That is the only thing I am trying to get out of this discussion.

Pat D
04-28-2004, 04:06 PM
Sometimes you can not have empirical evidence to prove facts. You have to trust your ears. The post that I have read from him do not accept this. There are alot of things in life that are not absolute. I admit I do not know alot about him but I remember from last year the same type of post. There are a majority out there that agree there is a difference in one component to the other. He is all about psychoacoustics and the dbt. Psychology is a powerful thing but if you can not trust yourself who can you trust. I have been in lots of situations where I wanted to believe one thing but heard another. I am sure there are lots of others with similiar stories.

I have been through alot of gear in the past. My favorite Pre and current resident in my ssystem is a Spectral DMC-20 series II. They also make a great cd player. I suggest that those who believe engineering and science has no effect on the sound you get contact Profesor Keith Johnson to discuss it with him. There is better sound out of better gear if you do not believe that then you have not listened to that gear.

I do want to hear from him on this. I would also really like to see what gear he has. My guess is that his system does not have the resolving power to see the effects of cables or better equipment.
Trust your ears? Well, if you actually want to trust what you hear as opposed to what you see (because if you know what the equipment is, you are subject to all sorts of biases including Attitudes, Beliefs, and Expectations as Woodman says, but not limited to them), then you need controlled double blind tests. In other words, in a DBT, what you really do rely on is your own hearing--but for some reason, you don't seem to want to accept that. Controlled DBT is a way of removing the effect of biases.

NickWH
04-28-2004, 04:08 PM
Wow, tough crowd! Don't feel bad 996turbo, I happen to agree with you. I think Mytrcraft is an idiot, too. Every one of his posts are negative and/or filled with ignorance. This is more of a HT forum than AudioAsylum, so I guess you get more traffic from the Circuit City/Best Buy crowd. I suppose comments like his are to be expected.

In the future I would suggest refraining from starting new threads like this one. It automatically makes you a target.

Cheerio.

E-Stat
04-28-2004, 04:14 PM
I have been through alot of gear in the past. My favorite Pre and current resident in my ssystem is a Spectral DMC-20 series II. They also make a great cd player. I suggest that those who believe engineering and science has no effect on the sound you get contact Profesor Keith Johnson to discuss it with him.
Spectral components and Reference Recordings are totally outside the experience of the labcoats here.


I do want to hear from him on this.
Won't happen. You see he doesn't trust his opinion since it is subject to human foibles. Instead, you will find that he prefers to live vicariously through the eyes of others through articles on which he reports.



I would also really like to see what gear he has. My guess is that his system does not have the resolving power to see the effects of cables or better equipment.
According to mtry, he listens to a boombox. And is a ditchdigger. Makes perfect sense to me!

rw

996turbo
04-28-2004, 04:16 PM
Like I have said My wife has heard the changes in my system for the better or for the worse. I understand what you are saying about the DBT but coming from someone who does not care about the gear (my wife) when she hears a difference it negates the need for it.

996turbo
04-28-2004, 04:20 PM
Wow, tough crowd! Don't feel bad 996turbo, I happen to agree with you. I think Mytrcraft is an idiot, too. Every one of his posts are negative and/or filled with ignorance. This is more of a HT forum than AudioAsylum, so I guess you get more traffic from the Circuit City/Best Buy crowd. I suppose comments like his are to be expected.

In the future I would suggest refraining from starting new threads like this one. It automatically makes you a target.

Cheerio.
I understand what you are saying I just wanted to piont out what I read. There is always two sides to an opinion. I think that the ones on the recieving end of bad advice need to understand there are alot of people who think differently.

E-Stat
04-28-2004, 04:20 PM
Oh really? And as far as the list of gear that you've heard, I doubt that it's anywhere near as extensive as what I've heard through the course of the last 65+ years.
Ok. Skeptic and Monster have both told of their system experience. Monster even has a *gasp* tube amp. So what is your point of reference? Not necessarily what's in your system, but rather what system(s) have you found to be best in your 65+ years? Do share with us the benefit of such vast experience.

rw

996turbo
04-28-2004, 04:58 PM
here is a list of what I have heard in the last year or so
Anthem
Acurus
Aragon
California Audio
Spectral
Plinius
PS Audio
Bent
Convergebt Audio
Green Mountain
Rogue
Cary
Sony
B&W
Meadowlark
Wadia
Audio Research
Bel Canto
NAD
Adcom
Yamaha
Piega
Audioquest
MIT
Monitor Audio
Martin Logan
Krell
Bryston
Placette
Conrad Johnson
McCormack
Scott Nixon
Anodyne
Monster Cable
Virtual Dynamics
Tara Labs
Audience
Nordost
Radio Shack
Ah Tjoeb

All of these components had their own individual sonic signature. I am sure I am leaving some out you must exuse me. Out of all of these products I feel that I have gained some experience. I ask you what reasons did you choose whatt you have purchased if there is no difference. I for one have done extensive listening to choose what I have. I have not chosen anything merely based on what my friends think as many of them have no concept what this stuff cost. I prefer to keep it that way unless they want get in themselves. In my listening room there is one sweet spot. This is a solo hobby. I am in this for my personal enjoyment not to impress the neighbors.

skeptic
04-28-2004, 07:11 PM
It would appear that the only reason you came here is to attack someone. What other posts have you participated in? If that isn't a troll what is? You will hardly be surprised that you won't get any support for your views here. Before you admitted that you were from the Asylum, I guessed it. This is typical of the way people debate their points of view there. A lot of flame wars and boasting about who has the most expensive equpment. How much you spend on audio equipment seems to have some sort of status or give rank there. One thing is sure, ideas, scientific evidence, and logic don't play any role in those discussions. I think you will be a lot happier when your keeper finds you, puts you in your straightjacket, and takes you home to where you belong. Perhaps some electro shock therapy would calm you down. As for the other asylum you live in, your marriage, I hope your wife is as crazy as you are because if she is normal, she must be in a living hell.

Pat D
04-28-2004, 07:25 PM
Like I have said My wife has heard the changes in my system for the better or for the worse. I understand what you are saying about the DBT but coming from someone who does not care about the gear (my wife) when she hears a difference it negates the need for it.
No, not really. It just doesn't work that way. Maybe she doesn't care, but unless the audition is blind, she may care what you care about or she may develop a preference for some other reason, appearance, cost, size, color, which side its on, which she heard first, and so on. Sighted auditions are less reliable than DBTs, and causes are assigned after the fact..

In any case, human beings are simply built to make choices between things. There is the story of Jean Buridan's donkey (of course, it was made up as a comment on his theory of the will). The hungry beast was placed equidistant between two piles of hay. According to his opponents, the donkey should be unable to make a choice and would starve to death. But of course, it would simply go over to one of the piles of hay and start eating. Most people will develop a preference even among things which perform identically.

Poss
04-28-2004, 09:59 PM
There's been a lot of techno/psychological babble in this forum over years. As somebody who actually DID ABX testing at some point in my life I can tell that this "there's no difference" thing is completely false. Sonic character is sometimes so obvious you don't need no ABX to tell two components appart.

To make things worse, the premise on which the ABX brigade on this forum is starting their argument is the wrong, dare I say unscientific way of approaching the subject of Double Blind Testing. For instance medical DBT is usually set up to highlight the existence of postulated differences and any kind of similar testing should be set up the very same way in order to be meaningful. Whoever states otherwise probably had no experience in any kind of testing whatsoever.

Besides there IS one magazine out there that relies on a blind listening panel (not DBT though, but all levels are carefully matched) and measurements for its testing and reporting. They seem to corelate good bench performance with equally good sonic performance on most cases. Imagine that! What a concept!

Regardless, there is enough info out there that, while not 100% pure scientific, is credible enough to suggest there is actually a difference in sonic character between components. Further there is also empirical evidence that suggests that differences tend to dissappear as the level of real world engineering (or shall I say the actual amount of thought put into designing and manufacturing) in competing products gets higher.

In my not so humble oppinion ignoring all this without further investigation and simply dismissing it just because it was not the result of an 100% scientific experiment shows pure and crass ignorance. It is also contrary to most of the scientific or engineering principles I'm aware of. In the world we're all living on, empirical data is essential to R&D, thus essential in advancing technology (regardless of the field).

Finally this forum was a total waste of time 5 years ago. 3 years back was still a waste. Coming back this week feels no better.

While I totally disagree with the unprovoked attack that started this thread I can certainly feel some of the original poster's somewhat justified frustration.

Sorry.

Peace!

hertz
04-29-2004, 12:29 AM
There is a big difference between casual hi fi enthusiasts and audiophiles.The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound. Absolute uncolored sound is not possible but the closer you get there, the better.This means that even so called hi end equipment colors the sound slightly and the color you like depends on your taste.

I have been in this hobby for the last 15 years and I have a small group of friends who are like minded. Most of them including myself have bought their equipment after extensive lisening.So the buying decision is based solely on the SIGNATURE SOUND of each equipment within a certain budget.All of us do not have the luxury of dedicated listening rooms but I have noticed that the differences in equipment is much more noticable and evident when you swap components in a system that is setup properly in a dedicated listening room.


From my experience:
Speakers and room treatment makes the most difference.Then comes the amp.The differences between and cd players and cables are tiny but substantial enough for the audiophile.The differences in cd players and cables are very much evident when you swap them in a system that is setup properly in a dedicated listening room.

Sondek
04-29-2004, 01:07 AM
From my experience:
Speakers and room treatment makes the most difference.Then comes the amp.The differences between and cd players and cables are tiny but substantial enough for the audiophile.The differences in cd players and cables are very much evident when you swap them in a system that is setup properly in a dedicated listening room.


I agree with most of that. Cables that I have tried make "noticable" differences at best. usually, going from a poor design (high capacitance or resistance) to a well made cable yeilds the biggest change. But usually, it is a small one.

CD players: the difference between a cd player like the NAD C-540 and a Linn Ikemi is VERY obvious. There is a BIG difference, but most of the difference lies in the ability of the LINN to recover ambient detail the NAD cannot. This is most evident in intimate and classical recordings.

Everything from Allison Krauss to Holst has a toally different level of detail between the two cd players. This amounts overall to a huge change in the way a system sounds. The NAD sounds good, but lacks real detail. And the problem with some folks on this forum is, they have not heard a real revealing system, and not done a comparision like some of us have.

You definately do not need to do an ABX to tell the difference in this case, on the NAD detail is just not there, and the LINN recoveres it...very obvious, and very big difference.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 03:25 AM
It would appear that the only reason you came here is to attack someone. What other posts have you participated in? If that isn't a troll what is? You will hardly be surprised that you won't get any support for your views here. Before you admitted that you were from the Asylum, I guessed it. This is typical of the way people debate their points of view there. A lot of flame wars and boasting about who has the most expensive equpment. How much you spend on audio equipment seems to have some sort of status or give rank there. One thing is sure, ideas, scientific evidence, and logic don't play any role in those discussions. I think you will be a lot happier when your keeper finds you, puts you in your straightjacket, and takes you home to where you belong. Perhaps some electro shock therapy would calm you down. As for the other asylum you live in, your marriage, I hope your wife is as crazy as you are because if she is normal, she must be in a living hell.
Do I have to tell you that I have bought my gear based on listening. I have participated in post at this and many other audiosites. I am not trying to hide. I have gone under the same name for the last three years. A troll does not do that.I have been fortunate enough in my life to afford some expensive toys. I have made those purchases through extensive listening and research. What you are refusing to agree with is that different equipment sounds different. I spent yesterday afternoon with a friend setting up my speakers properly. I tried the Cardas method AudioPhysics the Equilateral triangle way and finally settled on my speakers being 80%apart as I am from their front axis. I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now. Only when you have your system setup like a scientific instrument can you realize what I am saying.
I am glad that you have personally attacked me now as it shows me that what I said is an accepted thing here. I do not know Mtyrcraft personally and assume he is not an idiot.It was a tactic to get people to think about what he had said and how rediculous what he was saying was.
Lighten up this is a Hobby. I have in the last 5-6 post not said anything negative about anybody.I merely believe that I hear differences in the gear I have heard. W
Who who does not believe that cd players sound different has heard the list that I have. Have you compared a CAL to a Wadia to a Sony to a Ah tjoeb in a day. I have we did not do a DBT but used one system set up properly all spinning the same disc with levels matched and the same wires. all I did was have to switch imputs. We all could reliably tell which was which. with the lights off.
Take all the personal attacks flying around here and understand you are an audio chat board on a string in a Digital Domain board. If you have no belief that there is a difference why are you here. The whole point is to discuss gear. At least in this area. If all of you think no difference exist be happy with what you and never discuss different gear again.
So tell me what gear you have listened to and was it in a properly setup room. I will invite anybody over to my house for a hospitable time provide food and drink and we can all sit down and listen. If you are not in the area join a club in your area and go and listen.

skeptic
04-29-2004, 03:33 AM
"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."

"Lighten up this is a Hobby."

This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 03:44 AM
There's been a lot of techno/psychological babble in this forum over years. As somebody who actually DID ABX testing at some point in my life I can tell that this "there's no difference" thing is completely false. Sonic character is sometimes so obvious you don't need no ABX to tell two components appart.

To make things worse, the premise on which the ABX brigade on this forum is starting their argument is the wrong, dare I say unscientific way of approaching the subject of Double Blind Testing. For instance medical DBT is usually set up to highlight the existence of postulated differences and any kind of similar testing should be set up the very same way in order to be meaningful. Whoever states otherwise probably had no experience in any kind of testing whatsoever.

Besides there IS one magazine out there that relies on a blind listening panel (not DBT though, but all levels are carefully matched) and measurements for its testing and reporting. They seem to corelate good bench performance with equally good sonic performance on most cases. Imagine that! What a concept!

Regardless, there is enough info out there that, while not 100% pure scientific, is credible enough to suggest there is actually a difference in sonic character between components. Further there is also empirical evidence that suggests that differences tend to dissappear as the level of real world engineering (or shall I say the actual amount of thought put into designing and manufacturing) in competing products gets higher.

In my not so humble oppinion ignoring all this without further investigation and simply dismissing it just because it was not the result of an 100% scientific experiment shows pure and crass ignorance. It is also contrary to most of the scientific or engineering principles I'm aware of. In the world we're all living on, empirical data is essential to R&D, thus essential in advancing technology (regardless of the field).

Finally this forum was a total waste of time 5 years ago. 3 years back was still a waste. Coming back this week feels no better.

While I totally disagree with the unprovoked attack that started this thread I can certainly feel some of the original poster's somewhat justified frustration.

Sorry.

Peace!
I agree that the attack on Mtyrcraft was unprovoked and incorrect. I apolagize for the manner in which I started I was just blown away at the severe lack of any prior listening to a properly set up system I was reading.The only way what he and some others here think can only be the result from limited exposure to different gear.

skeptic
04-29-2004, 03:46 AM
"The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound."

People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music. That is the ONLY uncolored sound there is. And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.

People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument. They don't settle for facsimiles made by machines from recordings. They see that for what it is, a poor substitute when you can't have the real thing. Kind of like looking at pornography when you can't have sex.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 03:49 AM
"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."

"Lighten up this is a Hobby."

This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.
You have posted over 500post here. I do not have that many post on all the boards combined. I have spent alot of money on my system. Spending a few hours setting it up properly is totally justified for what I will get out of it. Do you take a nice sports car and never get a tune up or the tires balanced.

What does it say under your name when you post?

996turbo
04-29-2004, 05:01 AM
"I used a laser range finder acurate to 1 16th of an inch. My speakers are as close to perfectly set up as I can get them now."

"Lighten up this is a Hobby."

This is not a hobby for you. It is an obsession and a compulsion. You need outside help and intervention. There is a lot more to life than audio equipment. There is no such thing as perfection in this hobby. When you boil it down to what is rational, it's just a stinkin' hi fi set. That's all it really is. Spend more time thinking about life and less time with this overpriced electronic junk. Give the people who have to put up with living with you a break and spend more time with them. Or maybe by now they are so fed up that they would prefer that you didn't.
W

1- Why are you here if you do not want to acknowledge differences in cd players
2- What players have you listened to?
3-Is your system set up properly ?
4- What gear do you have?

What I do not understand is that if alot of you do not believe in equipment why are you on a website that by definition believes different stuff sounds different. If there is no difference get the cheapest $69 cd player and call it a day. If you spent any more than that why did you spend more?

I think these are reasonable questions. I have told everybody what I have heard and why I bought what I did.

FLZapped
04-29-2004, 05:22 AM
I am having a hard time with this topic.

Seems pretty easy to us, you intended to libel Mtry.


The point of my post was not to debate the equipment.

And you didn't, you threw out repetitive insults about Mtry.....


I have heard a difference and so has every person who has been to my house. That is all the proof I need.

Fine, but different from what? Were acoustic differences between listening environments compenated for? I'd also like to know how this was judged, I'll bet there was a significant period of time that elapsed.....sorry, but our aural memories are rather short. So, you see, it makes it neither so, or fact.



My wife has no psychological tie to any gear and she can hear a difference.

Having a tie(not not having one) to the equipment makes no difference.



What I meant by resolving power may not be something you are familiar with. It is detail and resolution where you can hear minute changes in your system.

Yeah, I'm fammiliar with it, it's an optical term. Again, how do you quantify it? How does it relate to JNDs??? Can you anser that question, now asked for the second time?

-Bruce

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 05:32 AM
People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music.
Agreed. I enjoy hearing the wife play her piano several times a week. Was at the ASO two weeks ago and have tickets for early June. I presume you have season tickets to the LA PHIL. Would love to hear Mehta's Zarathustra live.



And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.
I find it amusing that Zapped by Jitter calls me the elitist here given your "anything but classical is inferior" posture. While I share your love of classical music, I don't share your nearsighted view of musical enjoyment. I am just as moved and obsessed by Liz Story, Jean-Michel Jarre, Sarah Brightman, and Dead Can Dance among others.



People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument.
Or instead, they live a balanced life and do both. I listen to music virtually every day. As going to the symphony is a four hour process and limited to Thu-Sat, I would rather spend more time with my family and friends on a daily basis and still get my "fix".

rw

FLZapped
04-29-2004, 05:35 AM
What I posted about him is just as rediculous as alot of his post.


No, what you posted was libel.



I think what gear he has is relevant to what he thinks.


See, this is where you keep falling flat. It has nothing to do with what he thinks, what I think, or what you think. It has to do with what reliable evidence shows. Casual listening does not qualify.



If you expect him to take home a high end cd player and hook it up to a luxman receiver into some radioshack speakers then of course he will not hear a difference. Maybe he has never had any really good gear in his house or ever listened to any.

And maybe you're just guessing here.



I have been around audio gear for a long time the list of gear I have heard is very extensive.


And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?



Go over to the Asylum and you will hear from veterans in the industry. Those veterans will tell you in great detail what the differences are.


HAHHAHAHAHHAHHA, that place is a joke. They believe in every audio fairytail that comes along and is perpetuated by many of those supposed industry types. One of them, John Risch left because his wild-assed ideas couldn't stand up to real scrutiney.


Check out my post over there and you will see that I am not a troll.

Maybe not there, but you are HERE.



I am not saying I am the expert. What I am saying is that neither is he. We all must trust our ears.

Ah yes, the audiophile mantra. Your perception of hearing can only take you so far, and that is not very.



If you have not heard a difference in one component to the next you must look at your system, your room, or yourself. Because there is a difference.


Based on what evidence?



The general feeling I get from this website is that there is alot of low to mid fi

Ah yes, the ol' audio snobbery crap again. You're just guessing, aren't you.....



If after going to a place like Goodwins with your 200 cd player and comparing it to a DCS on a very nice system you do not hear the difference fine. I will bet you will hear a difference. If any of you are in NC I will challenge you to come over with your cd player or RS cables and we will sit down. I bet $ you will hear the difference

Yeah, but you have to be wiling to set up the equipment in such a way that will allow for a DBT to be performed, none of this uncontrolled stuff.....

-Bruce

996turbo
04-29-2004, 05:38 AM
Fine Bruce I have done it in the past lets go

996turbo
04-29-2004, 05:39 AM
Seems pretty easy to us, you intended to libel Mtry.



And you didn't, you threw out repetitive insults about Mtry.....



Fine, but different from what? Were acoustic differences between listening environments compenated for? I'd also like to know how this was judged, I'll bet there was a significant period of time that elapsed.....sorry, but our aural memories are rather short. So, you see, it makes it neither so, or fact.



Having a tie(not not having one) to the equipment makes no difference.



Yeah, I'm fammiliar with it, it's an optical term. Again, how do you quantify it? How does it relate to JNDs??? Can you anser that question, now asked for the second time?

-Bruce
If you will read my previous post I told you how we did the listening. I hooked 4 players up to the same system and spun the same disc. We adjusted my pre so all levels were equal and then switched between inputs. This allowed us to switch between players instantly in the same place and same song.

What I mean by resolving power is a system set up of equipment that has a proper synergy and where changes are readily evident. I am sorry I do not know what JNDs is.

Now how about my questions?

996turbo
04-29-2004, 05:39 AM
And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?

No I merely have shown that I have listened. If a person it to compare things and comment they have to atleast listened.

FLZapped
04-29-2004, 05:46 AM
And this is supposed to impress me? Is this supposed to make you a "Golden Ear"?

No I merely have shown that I have listened. If a person it to compare things and comment they have to atleast listened.


Again, uncontrolled listening does not prove anything. -Bruce

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 05:55 AM
What I mean by resolving power is a system set up of equipment that has a proper synergy and where changes are readily evident. I am sorry I do not know what JNDs is.
Just Noticeable Differences.


Now how about my questions?
Zapped by Jitter is in the same "don't tell" camp as Mtry. He finds such exchanges of useful information as "traps" to his integrity and authority as an engineer with "exposure".

<a href="http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=19279&postcount=71">Exposure to what?</a href>

rw

996turbo
04-29-2004, 05:55 AM
ok bruce lets do it. I sent you an e-mail off line with a number call it and lets get together and do it. I am not afraid. I have available alot of wire from lots of manufacturers. I also can put my hands on alot of cd players.

FLZapped
04-29-2004, 05:56 AM
There is a big difference between casual hi fi enthusiasts and audiophiles.


You're right, audiophiles suffer from Audio Nervana Nervosa. :D



The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound.

They say they can, but none has actually ever proven that they really could.



I have been in this hobby for the last 15 years and I have a small group of friends who are like minded. Most of them including myself have bought their equipment after extensive lisening.So the buying decision is based solely on the SIGNATURE SOUND of each equipment within a certain budget.All of us do not have the luxury of dedicated listening rooms but I have noticed that the differences in equipment is much more noticable and evident when you swap components in a system that is setup properly in a dedicated listening room.

So you all convince each other of what you are hearing and your brain gladly modifies your perception to match.....

-Bruce

skeptic
04-29-2004, 06:01 AM
"I was just blown away at the severe lack of any prior listening to a properly set up system"

You have no way to know if that is true. For all you know he designs and builds this stuff for a living. Maybe after a day full of it, he is just too happy to escape it for a few hours. What equipment you have does not affect how much you know or the validity of your ideas and neither does your credentials. That game is not particularly popular here.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 06:08 AM
You are correct I do not know. What you have does not matter you are correct. In order to make a comparison though you must listen to alot of different things. If you do not have a revealing system properly set up there is no problem. We all come from different economic situations. But Join a club and you will meet people who do have that gear and then you can listen for yourself. If there is no club go to a boutique store and listen that is free.

skeptic
04-29-2004, 06:10 AM
I am the first to acknowledge that there are small audible differences in cd players due to minor differences in analog frequency response. These are easily compensated for in the equalization of the overall system response. If you don't believe in using an equalizer or can't get one to work successfully for you, then you become obsessed with these minor differences which depending on the rest of your system will exaggerate or mitigate the linear distortion inherent in it. As for nonlinear distortion and noise, all current and recent models perform at levels where these characteristics are far below the threshold of audibility, audio geeks notwithstanding. Right now I need two more players in my house. I look for models with features I need and like. I need A-B repeat because that makes the players useful tools for musicians in my house to practice with. I also want a variable output with a volume control on the remote because many of my amplifiers and preamplifiers do not have their own remote volume controls. Right now, I'm looking at a couple of Sherwoods on J&Rs site. IMO, anyone who spends thousands on a cd player trying to get better sound is wasting their money. But it's their money so they can do what they like with it.

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 06:28 AM
As for nonlinear distortion and noise, all current and recent models perform at levels where these characteristics are far below the threshold of audibility, audio geeks notwithstanding.
All current and recent models? :)

Explain to me Sherlock how you have deduced this entirely without the benefit of direct experience or data to support your theory?

rw

skeptic
04-29-2004, 06:46 AM
"We all come from different economic situations. "

I have said before and I repeat that I can afford to purchase ANY audio equipment made even the equipment with prices in the stratosphere. Why don't I? Because I am not a fool. I've watched one world's best piece of equipment after another come and go for the last 5 decades. Empire 880p, "The last phonograph cartridge you will ever buy." That was about 45 years ago. Practically everything you read about this stuff is hype. There hasn't been a truely new and innovative design in decades. The high end is a waste of money. You can modify existing and used equipment and get THE SAME RESULTS. Often, better.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 06:52 AM
Once again what have you listened to and was it on a properly set up system. I invite you and all to my house and we will make a day of it.

I want specific brands and models

skeptic
04-29-2004, 06:54 AM
Same silly arguement as the cables. They perform their functions as perfectly as you could want. There is no arguing with people whose money is buring a hole in their pocket looking for that next best in the world piece of equipment. And no matter what you spent or how good it sounds to you, it still sounds like a hi fi set to me. None of it sounds real. Not for the kind of music I like to listen to in the places they perform it.

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 06:59 AM
I have said before and I repeat that I can afford to purchase ANY audio equipment made even the equipment with prices in the stratosphere.
Yeah, yeah you have the million dollar house, etc. I've seen what million dollar houses look like in the Orange County area.

Anyway, share your thoughts when you heard all of the following speakers:

Alon Grand Exotica
Soundlabs U-1
Magnepan 20.1
Rockport Hyperion
Martin-Logan Statement

Did you really find them all to sound like AR-9s? (with your tweaks, of course)

Likewise, what kind of EQ settings did you use to make your CDP sound like:

GamuT CD-1
Burmester 001
Burmester 969/970
Mark Levinson 390S

Since you are so wealthy, you simply must have heard all these find components.

rw

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 07:01 AM
Same silly arguement as the cables. They perform their functions as perfectly as you could want.

I see. So the answer is "of course I have no evidence to support my sweeping statement" about CDPs.

rw

skeptic
04-29-2004, 07:19 AM
And your arguement to the contrary is....? I suppose you will tell us you can hear a big big difference just the way the cable people argue. And you can attribute it to what? Less digital jitter? Lower harmonic distortion? Lower noise? Lack of gremlins? I admitted they sound different but when I change them out, re-equalizing the systems again so far always makes the new one sound just like the old one did. What evidence do you have to suggest that frequency response isn't the ENTIRE story?

skeptic
04-29-2004, 07:24 AM
"Like I have said My wife has heard the changes in my system for the better or for the worse."

Has it ever occurred to you that by this point she is so fed up with your audio mania, she will tell you anything just to get you off her back?

When she said for better or worse, in sickness and in health, she never dreamt it would get this bad or that the sickness would be an obsession with audio equipment to the point that you would be positioning your speakers until they were within the right spot to the last sixteenth of an inch.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 07:31 AM
why will not you guys answer some simple questions.

WHAT HAVE YOU LISTENED TO????

newbsterv2
04-29-2004, 07:37 AM
Skeptic I've always loved your scientific explanations and lack of bullsh$!. But damn I never knew you to be so damned FUNNY! I can't stop laughing at your posts! Have at this clown it's entertainment for all of us!



"The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound."

People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music. That is the ONLY uncolored sound there is. And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.

People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument. They don't settle for facsimiles made by machines from recordings. They see that for what it is, a poor substitute when you can't have the real thing. Kind of like looking at pornography when you can't have sex.

996turbo
04-29-2004, 07:38 AM
My wife knows it is my hobby and respects it just as I respect her hobbies. I have a loving wife who enjoys music also.

If you have a nice sports car are you not going to keep it clean and tuned up. If you do not understand how important speaker placement is then you will never understand how important all the other factors are. The imaging and focus rely to a large extent on placement. If you have not witnessed that simple fact you will never hear the differences gear can make.
If your cars front right tire pressure is off by 5 lbs it will pull to the right just as if your front right speaker is towed out more the sound will be off center.
I think this is basic audio knowledge.

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 08:02 AM
And your arguement to the contrary is....? I suppose you will tell us you can hear a big big difference just the way the cable people argue.
"Big difference" is a relative term. I would characterize them as "decidedly noticeable". For most folks, such differences are irrelevant. They do, however, exist for discerning music lovers. That is to say of course IF and WHEN you actually have the benefit of experiencing what I am referring to. The Burmester 969/970 combo has the widest image and most extended frequency extremes vs. any other player I've heard. Naturally, that unit was not on a mid-fi system.



And you can attribute it to what? Less digital jitter? Lower harmonic distortion? Lower noise? Lack of gremlins? I admitted they sound different but when I change them out, re-equalizing the systems again so far always makes the new one sound just like the old one did.
I'm a software engineer, not an EE, so all I can do is speculate as to what I hear. The likely answer is all of the above. As for gremlins, I am not convinced that The Engineers know all there is no know about musical reproduction. Any more than they did when CDs first came out. The first CD players were dreadful. Any more than when SS first came out. Similarly, the first SS units were dreadful. The necessary analog sections in most cheapie players is a $.49 IC chip.



What evidence do you have to suggest that frequency response isn't the ENTIRE story?
As I've asked before, How do you increase apparent stage width via changes in frequency response? How do you increase the focus on individual instruments? While the answer given was "high end" tilt, that answer just doesn't fly. Cranking the treble on a mid-fi receiver is not going to make it sound like the best discrete components.

rw

skeptic
04-29-2004, 10:22 AM
" The necessary analog sections in most cheapie players is a $.49 IC chip."

Once again there is the obvious mistake amatures make of equating cost with performance. And the error could hardly be more telling than in the selling price of an IC chip. The original chip design and tooling cost many many millions of dollars. But the profits from producing the chip has amortized the that cost a long time ago. These chips aren't sold in the thousands or tens of thousands, they have been sold in the billions. That is part of the reason why a cd player for a computer costs only $5 retail. Consider that a 5 cent wristwatch chip will far outperform a $10,000 Rolex watch of 50 years ago. Ain't technology amazing?

996turbo
04-29-2004, 10:23 AM
are you not going to answer any of my questions Skeptic or Zapped

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 10:38 AM
Once again there is the obvious mistake amatures make of equating cost with performance.
I guess that explains why there are a sum total of zero high performance preamps on the market that use op amps exclusively for signal. Can you think of any?



Consider that a 5 cent wristwatch chip will far outperform a $10,000 Rolex watch of 50 years ago. Ain't technology amazing?
It is. I would guess, however, that $8,000 of the Oyster Presidential's cost is for the 18k gold and 100 meter water proof machining. :)

rw

skeptic
04-29-2004, 10:38 AM
"I guess that explains why there are a sum total of zero high performance preamps on the market that use op amps exclusively for signal. Can you think of any? "

Probably turned out to be the wrong application for an op amp. Those op amps are fine for other applications though.

"I would guess, however, that $8,000 of the Oyster Presidential's cost is for the 18k gold and 100 meter water proof machining."

If you want to invest in gold that is one thing. A chip could be encapsulated in acrylic for 10 cents and become waterproof to far greater depth. Of course changing the battery would be a *****.

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 11:12 AM
Probably turned out to be the wrong application for an op amp. Those op amps are fine for other applications though.
I am more optimistic than that. While the best preamps by far today use tubes or discrete FETs bathed in ultra stiff power supplies, I think eventually op amps will have their day for signal apps. We're just not there yet.



If you want to invest in gold that is one thing. A chip could be encapsulated in acrylic for 10 cents and become waterproof to far greater depth. Of course changing the battery would be a *****.
I was merely pointing out that your example involved a lot more than simply the cost of mechanical timepieces. As I have always been fascinated by watches, I have about half a dozen, most of which are quite inexpensive. Clearly the most accurate by far is my $39 Casio Atomic Watch. Turns out the cesium clock in Bolder is kinda sorta dead accurate. Waaay beyond our lifetimes. Having said that, the "appreciation for fine machines" guy in me still enjoys the quality and workmanship of my Omega Speedmaster. For scuba diving, I use a different Casio watch that I consider expendible.

BTW, clearly a *big* chunk of the cost of the superlative Burmester 969/970 units is due to their incredibly over engineered design. The front panel of either unit costs more than many an inexpensive CDP. They are absolutely gorgeous to hear and to look at. They are the two units below the Kuzma turntable on the left. (Warning: 500k image for dialup folks)

<a href="http://home.comcast.net/~ralphwallace/burmester969.html">The best CD Transport / DAC I've heard</a href>


rw

skeptic
04-29-2004, 02:17 PM
High quality regulated power supplies are not overkill, they are an integral part of well designed electronics. Fancy front panels are. I gave up buying tube electronics a long time ago when equipment that didn't self destruct from the moment you turn it on became available. Future op amps may be equal to the task of high performance audio preamplification. If they are, it will cut the cost considerably.

There are many people for whom performance is everything and fancy styling is nothing. Some of these loudspeaker cabinets that try to look like the most expensive furniture seem crazy to me. Besides, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. For example, the photo on your hot link looks like one of the ugliest piles of junk I've ever seen. What is that stupid tonearm supposed to be about? What are those "exotic" front panels made of anyway, mirrors or Lucite? Personally, I prefer anodized aluminum common in the seventies and eighties.

E-Stat
04-29-2004, 06:03 PM
For example, the photo on your hot link looks like one of the ugliest piles of junk I've ever seen. What is that stupid tonearm supposed to be about? What are those "exotic" front panels made of anyway, mirrors or Lucite? Personally, I prefer anodized aluminum common in the seventies and eighties.
The Kuzma has an air bearing tonearm. I prefer the VPI to the right. The front panels on the Burmesters are polished chrome and really do look nice in person. The remaining panels are all anodized aluminum. I care most as to the performance where they excel.

rw

newbsterv2
04-29-2004, 07:06 PM
Any fan of Mahler is a friend of mine. Tell me. How well does Kaplan conduct Mahler's 2nd?


The Kuzma has an air bearing tonearm. I prefer the VPI to the right. The front panels on the Burmesters are polished chrome and really do look nice in person. The remaining panels are all anodized aluminum. I care most as to the performance where they excel.

rw

hertz
04-30-2004, 12:45 AM
"The audiophile can make out differences between equipment because he is obssessed with natural, uncolored sound."

People who are really obsessed with natural uncolored sound listen to live music. That is the ONLY uncolored sound there is. And you can easily tell how obsessed with music they are by the kind of music they listen to.

People who are obsessed with travel don't spend their lives looking at photographs and travel films. They pack their bags, get in cars, planes, trains, on ships and they GO. People who love music listen to live music and if they are really involved, they play a musical instrument. They don't settle for facsimiles made by machines from recordings. They see that for what it is, a poor substitute when you can't have the real thing. Kind of like looking at pornography when you can't have sex.

Skeptic..I totally disagree with you .Your personal attacks or turbo is also uncalled for.You are assuming lot things here.Do you know that person that much to say that he is not having a healthy personal or social life ? What crap are you talking about ?

Lot of people cultivate hobbies.Unfortunately, music reproduction at high quality levels and its enjoyment is a very solo thing.This is due to the fact that it involves a dedicated listening room and sitting at the sweet spot.And people who have discovered that level of quality derives so much happiness and magic out of it.People who have not reached that level either don't have that much interest or inclination and they go about talking crap about things they don't have any experience in.
Give him a break. He knows what he is talking about.I personally have friends who have dedicated listening rooms and and a decent system setup properly. Listening to music at their place is enlightening.The realism gives me goose bumps.
And most of them have a good social life and family life.Most stereophile audiophiles I know have a casual music system which is part of their HT setup in their living rooms in which they do their casual listening.But they might spend a few hours daily with their primary setup which is true with any other hobbies like fishing, motorcycles, reading, painting, photography, internet surfing etc....So what is the big deal ? Do you think all audiophiles should have their music system setup in the kitchen so that the wify and children can chime in whenever he wants to listen to music.What rubbish !

I agree to the fact that live music cannot be matched at home.But all music lovers don't have the time to go to live shows.They want to recreate something close to it at home.THEY WANT TO ENJOY MUSIC AT HOME..PERIOD ! This is possible if you have the right kind of setup.I know there are a lot of variables when it comes to music reproduction at home and live music.But a crappy system is always a CRAPPY one and it will color the sound much more than a good one setup properly.

hertz
04-30-2004, 01:02 AM
No..I do not agree.All of us hear the same differences.But most of us have different tastes in music so each of us have bought different equipment due the the fact that all the equipment have a signature sound and each of of like a different signature. I bought a nad but my friend likes the marantz sound. But both of hate the sound of the harman kardon dvd player I have lying around.
My point is that no equipment is totally neutral.All have their own signature sound and each of us prefer different.But high end equipment colors the sound less that the Crappy mass market jap stuff.

Sondek
04-30-2004, 02:28 AM
" The necessary analog sections in most cheapie players is a $.49 IC chip."

Once again there is the obvious mistake amatures make of equating cost with performance. And the error could hardly be more telling than in the selling price of an IC chip. The original chip design and tooling cost many many millions of dollars. But the profits from producing the chip has amortized the that cost a long time ago. These chips aren't sold in the thousands or tens of thousands, they have been sold in the billions. That is part of the reason why a cd player for a computer costs only $5 retail. Consider that a 5 cent wristwatch chip will far outperform a $10,000 Rolex watch of 50 years ago. Ain't technology amazing?

The price of a rotel RCD-855 opamp ($399 player) was probably $1.50. A new opamp installed costs $4.00. It has the same detail-producing ability as a discreet stage exhibits (IE a Naim CDS3).

skeptic
04-30-2004, 03:14 AM
It is unfortunate that you could not have taken a better picture to at least present you point. The quality of the photograph stinks.

996turbo
04-30-2004, 03:21 AM
Skeptic..I totally disagree with you .Your personal attacks or turbo is also uncalled for.You are assuming lot things here.Do you know that person that much to say that he is not having a healthy personal or social life ? What crap are you talking about ?

Lot of people cultivate hobbies.Unfortunately, music reproduction at high quality levels and its enjoyment is a very solo thing.This is due to the fact that it involves a dedicated listening room and sitting at the sweet spot.And people who have discovered that level of quality derives so much happiness and magic out of it.People who have not reached that level either don't have that much interest or inclination and they go about talking crap about things they don't have any experience in.
Give him a break. He knows what he is talking about.I personally have friends who have dedicated listening rooms and and a decent system setup properly. Listening to music at their place is enlightening.The realism gives me goose bumps.
And most of them have a good social life and family life.Most stereophile audiophiles I know have a casual music system which is part of their HT setup in their living rooms in which they do their casual listening.But they might spend a few hours daily with their primary setup which is true with any other hobbies like fishing, motorcycles, reading, painting, photography, internet surfing etc....So what is the big deal ? Do you think all audiophiles should have their music system setup in the kitchen so that the wify and children can chime in whenever he wants to listen to music.What rubbish !

I agree to the fact that live music cannot be matched at home.But all music lovers don't have the time to go to live shows.They want to recreate something close to it at home.THEY WANT TO ENJOY MUSIC AT HOME..PERIOD ! This is possible if you have the right kind of setup.I know there are a lot of variables when it comes to music reproduction at home and live music.But a crappy system is always a CRAPPY one and it will color the sound much more than a good one setup properly.

I have alot of friends and on a given friday my house has 7-8 kids running around and 3-4 couples socializing. I bet I spend less time with my system than some of those golf fanatics. everybody has a hobby. Like I have said in the past I spent alot of money on my system. I feel that I would be wasting the money if I did not spend the time to get it dialed in properly. People seem to think that you are a snob if you have nice things. I am sorry for those people. If you work hard in life there is nothing wrong with enjoying the fruits of labor. If I was just some rich person who put the system in a room with the speakers against the walls with no thought to placement that would be the real snob. I bought my stereo for personal enjoyment and me putting the care into how it is setup proves that it is not just a piece of Jewelry.

996turbo
04-30-2004, 04:28 AM
Skeptic obviously has no idea what he is looking at. All of that gear is awesome. The Burmeister is a sight to behold that produces some beautiful music. My father told me that all the problems in life can be distilled to one thing. Ignorance. Think about it.

Resident Loser
04-30-2004, 04:36 AM
...how strident and petulant of you...

ADC, Adcom, Advent, Allison, Altec-Lansing, Acoustic Research, Audak, Audio Control, Audio Research, B&O, B&W, Bozak, Bose, B*I*C, Carver, Cello, Criterion(LRE), Crown, Dahlquist, Dual, Dynaco, Electro-Voice, Fisher, Garrard, HH Scott, Harmon Kardon, Heathkit, Hitachi, Infinity, JBL, JVC, Kenwood, KLH, Klipsch, Koss, Krell, Marantz, Mark Levinson, Magnepan, Magnaplanar, McIntosh, Micro Seiki, NAD, Ohm, Ortofon, Onkyo, PE, Pickering, Pioneer, Phase Linear, Phillips, Polk, Quad, Radio Shack, Rek-O-Kut, Revox, SAE, Sennheiser, Sequerra, Sherwood, Shure, SME, Sony, Soundcraftsmen, Sound Concepts, Stanton, STAX, Tascam, Tandberg, Teac, Thorens, Warfdale, Western Electric...

It's difficult to remember them all...many of them now gone, along with the many retailers who sold them...The point is, folks like Woodman, skeptic and myself have seen and heard far greater variety of hi-fi gear than you probably ever will...from the days of single-sided 78s and their non-standardized EQs to digital...From the days when "hi-fi" didn't even exist, unless you were DIYing it, when it truly was a hobby in the best sense of the word...direct 16in. transcriptions, wire recorders, RTR, mono LPs, Stereo LPs(not to forget stereo itself), FM and FM stereo, cassettes, CDs, MP3s, memory chips...far greater listening experience, technical background and just plain common sense it would seem...

Howzabout on the production side(as opposed to reproduction)..Ampeg, Dallas-Arbiter, Electro-Voice, Electro-harmonix, Fender, Farfisa, Gibson, Guild, Gretsch, Hammond, Kustom, Marshall, Neumann, Peavey, Pignose, Shure, Rickenbacker, Vox...

Done much live recording? Ever been present at the performance, done the miking and mixing and listened to the playback of the final cut? Do you have THAT point of reference?

If your going to try turning things into a p!$$!ng match, a word of advice...don't pee into the wind...

jimHJJ(...TTFN...)

996turbo
04-30-2004, 04:55 AM
Now the question is since you seem to have alot of experience. Lets talk on a rational level.

Was there any difference in any of that gear?

Having the experience would you say that some equipment was worth more than other.

In the recording area are there any differences among mikes or digital devices like a DCS upsampler to the less expensive ones.

I have found that most profesional sound people are not as much into stereos as an audiophile. They are more interested in the live event. I personally think that most of the live events I have been to sound horrible in comparison to my system. This is due to the fact that they are not going for Timbral acuracy. They want to flood a large area with sound. I am of course talking of amplified music here and not acoustic or orchestral.

I noticed that alot of that gear is older stuff when engineering of Levinson was years ahead of the pack. Today the gear differences are smaller in the stratosphere but I think because back then there were fewer high end companies.

996turbo
04-30-2004, 04:58 AM
And yes I have set up sound at a show mixed it and heard the feed straight off the board.

Resident Loser
04-30-2004, 06:17 AM
"...Was there any difference in any of that gear?..."

As far as speakers are concerned, then as now, yes...other stuff...well, specs improved over time, the materials used did likewise, circuit topologies evolved, SS pretty much won out over tubes...however, like gear exhibited similar sound and it was the speakers that pretty much defined it...and you must take into account the continuing tech improvements in recording and the ever-changing performance and recording styles; acoustic to electric, mono to stereo and now analog to digital, some of which are horribly incompatible on one level, yet peerless on an artistic one.

"...Having the experience would you say that some equipment was worth more than other..."

In what way? Cost vs. value? In the 80s there was the Advent reciever rated @15wpc...blew the doors off some more expensive and higher powered gear and the tuner section was no slouch either...Tom Schotz as I recall(I could be wrong)...there was a time Fisher and Marantz were the ne plus ultra...we all know that tune...I personally am investigating inexpensive, quality gear and how it compares to my reference system.

"...In the recording area are there any differences among mikes or digital devices like a DCS upsampler to the less expensive ones..."

As far as digital...let's just say I prefer analog and that is my reference...to me, number-crunching is always going to be an approximation...Different mikes exhibit different characteristics...dynamic, condenser, omni, cardoid...some better suited to close techniques as opposed to field miking, X-Y, etc. some more suitable with specific instruments or even voices and styles...Additonally it has become more of a production choice, depending on the preferences of those involved.

"...I have found that most profesional sound people are not as much into stereos as an audiophile. They are more interested in the live event. I personally think that most of the live events I have been to sound horrible in comparison to my system. This is due to the fact that they are not going for Timbral acuracy. They want to flood a large area with sound. I am of course talking of amplified music here and not acoustic or orchestral..."

Unfortunately, many folks(myself included) have fallen into the "audiophile" trap. For some unknown reason, because we have invested time and money in what really is just another "divertimento", we tend to get self-righteous...we know best and we refer to our record collection as "program material" and use terms like "reference system"...much to the annoyance of some.

My interest in recording is soup to nuts...an attempt to correlate what goes in to what comes out...solos to small combos...either in a controlled environment or smaller clubs. I must say, knowing what THE live performance sounds like gives one an entirely different perspective...The recording and playback process introduces various forms of signal compression and other anomolies...If you're looking for a sonic hologram, well...fuggedaboudit!...Close, but no cigar...The best results have been with binaural...

"...I noticed that alot of that gear is older stuff when engineering of Levinson was years ahead of the pack. Today the gear differences are smaller in the stratosphere but I think because back then there were fewer high end companies..."

All those names I mentioned were more for a reference point...

You really have to keep one thing in mind...it doesn't matter what you may be selling, some things remain a constant...unless you can employ the economies of scale, you must set yourself apart...it can be a unique design, using mil-spec parts...limited production will sell for a tidy sum...it follows a cost vs. price formula based on a number of economic variables...marketing or at least understanding the basic priciples thereof and exploiting your customer base is as important as anything else in your enterprise...In some cases it's legitimate quality. In others, it's just hype.

Actually, there was little need for the cottage industry of esoteric audio...obviously they were there, but...the good stuff was available on a far wider scale...it was the advent of HT that really destroyed audio(as I grew up knowing it) and turned it into just another appliance...there doesn't seem to be a middle ground, pretty much mass-market and high-end...

jimHJJ(...but that's just me...)

Pat D
04-30-2004, 06:45 AM
There's been a lot of techno/psychological babble in this forum over years. As somebody who actually DID ABX testing at some point in my life I can tell that this "there's no difference" thing is completely false. Sonic character is sometimes so obvious you don't need no ABX to tell two components appart.

To make things worse, the premise on which the ABX brigade on this forum is starting their argument is the wrong, dare I say unscientific way of approaching the subject of Double Blind Testing. For instance medical DBT is usually set up to highlight the existence of postulated differences and any kind of similar testing should be set up the very same way in order to be meaningful. Whoever states otherwise probably had no experience in any kind of testing whatsoever.

Besides there IS one magazine out there that relies on a blind listening panel (not DBT though, but all levels are carefully matched) and measurements for its testing and reporting. They seem to corelate good bench performance with equally good sonic performance on most cases. Imagine that! What a concept!

Regardless, there is enough info out there that, while not 100% pure scientific, is credible enough to suggest there is actually a difference in sonic character between components. Further there is also empirical evidence that suggests that differences tend to dissappear as the level of real world engineering (or shall I say the actual amount of thought put into designing and manufacturing) in competing products gets higher.

In my not so humble oppinion ignoring all this without further investigation and simply dismissing it just because it was not the result of an 100% scientific experiment shows pure and crass ignorance. It is also contrary to most of the scientific or engineering principles I'm aware of. In the world we're all living on, empirical data is essential to R&D, thus essential in advancing technology (regardless of the field).

Finally this forum was a total waste of time 5 years ago. 3 years back was still a waste. Coming back this week feels no better.

While I totally disagree with the unprovoked attack that started this thread I can certainly feel some of the original poster's somewhat justified frustration.

Sorry.

Peace!
The fact that one cannot prove two things are the same does not justify all sorts of positive claims. When the differences are prima facie below the JNDs, then claims of sonic differences are highly suspect.

Of course one ordinarily has a reason for doing a DBT or SBT. Why would a consumer bother to do a DBT or SBT if he/she did not think they heard any differences? Maybe for the interest.

Many of us do not think informing consumers about unlikely claims is a waste of time.

skeptic
04-30-2004, 07:00 AM
I know a poorly made photograph when I see one.

996turbo
04-30-2004, 07:36 AM
"...Was there any difference in any of that gear?..."

As far as speakers are concerned, then as now, yes...other stuff...well, specs improved over time, the materials used did likewise, circuit topologies evolved, SS pretty much won out over tubes...however, like gear exhibited similar sound and it was the speakers that pretty much defined it...and you must take into account the continuing tech improvements in recording and the ever-changing performance and recording styles; acoustic to electric, mono to stereo and now analog to digital, some of which are horribly incompatible on one level, yet peerless on an artistic one.

"...Having the experience would you say that some equipment was worth more than other..."

In what way? Cost vs. value? In the 80s there was the Advent reciever rated @15wpc...blew the doors off some more expensive and higher powered gear and the tuner section was no slouch either...Tom Schotz as I recall(I could be wrong)...there was a time Fisher and Marantz were the ne plus ultra...we all know that tune...I personally am investigating inexpensive, quality gear and how it compares to my reference system.

"...In the recording area are there any differences among mikes or digital devices like a DCS upsampler to the less expensive ones..."

As far as digital...let's just say I prefer analog and that is my reference...to me, number-crunching is always going to be an approximation...Different mikes exhibit different characteristics...dynamic, condenser, omni, cardoid...some better suited to close techniques as opposed to field miking, X-Y, etc. some more suitable with specific instruments or even voices and styles...Additonally it has become more of a production choice, depending on the preferences of those involved.

"...I have found that most profesional sound people are not as much into stereos as an audiophile. They are more interested in the live event. I personally think that most of the live events I have been to sound horrible in comparison to my system. This is due to the fact that they are not going for Timbral acuracy. They want to flood a large area with sound. I am of course talking of amplified music here and not acoustic or orchestral..."

Unfortunately, many folks(myself included) have fallen into the "audiophile" trap. For some unknown reason, because we have invested time and money in what really is just another "divertimento", we tend to get self-righteous...we know best and we refer to our record collection as "program material" and use terms like "reference system"...much to the annoyance of some.

My interest in recording is soup to nuts...an attempt to correlate what goes in to what comes out...solos to small combos...either in a controlled environment or smaller clubs. I must say, knowing what THE live performance sounds like gives one an entirely different perspective...The recording and playback process introduces various forms of signal compression and other anomolies...If you're looking for a sonic hologram, well...fuggedaboudit!...Close, but no cigar...The best results have been with binaural...

"...I noticed that alot of that gear is older stuff when engineering of Levinson was years ahead of the pack. Today the gear differences are smaller in the stratosphere but I think because back then there were fewer high end companies..."

All those names I mentioned were more for a reference point...

You really have to keep one thing in mind...it doesn't matter what you may be selling, some things remain a constant...unless you can employ the economies of scale, you must set yourself apart...it can be a unique design, using mil-spec parts...limited production will sell for a tidy sum...it follows a cost vs. price formula based on a number of economic variables...marketing or at least understanding the basic priciples thereof and exploiting your customer base is as important as anything else in your enterprise...In some cases it's legitimate quality. In others, it's just hype.

Actually, there was little need for the cottage industry of esoteric audio...obviously they were there, but...the good stuff was available on a far wider scale...it was the advent of HT that really destroyed audio(as I grew up knowing it) and turned it into just another appliance...there doesn't seem to be a middle ground, pretty much mass-market and high-end...

jimHJJ(...but that's just me...)

I think that was a very well thought out post and I appreciate the thoughts you have you have obviously been around the scene for a while.

It seems we do actually agree on alot of things. For me it is the pioneers in audio that make up the highend market. They strive to get the last bit of resolution available with current technology SOTA
Just like in economics there will be trickle down. The gap between High end and standard is shortening all the time. Just look at all the raves about the Panny xr-45. I for one love big SS power.I love all of the feedback I get from my system. The tactile responce of the smooth switchs, The warmth from the amp and finally when I am in the spot with everything dialed in the sound. When you pay more for something you expect to get more. I feel I get what I have paid for.

In the end we all are into music. I have heard lots of high end systems in the last year or so .I liked some more than others the owner liked theirs and that is all that really matters.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
04-30-2004, 10:27 AM
I am the first to acknowledge that there are small audible differences in cd players due to minor differences in analog frequency response. These are easily compensated for in the equalization of the overall system response. If you don't believe in using an equalizer or can't get one to work successfully for you, then you become obsessed with these minor differences which depending on the rest of your system will exaggerate or mitigate the linear distortion inherent in it.

It is not very wise to use electronic equalization to correct the problems of indidiviual components. By doing so, you effect the frequency response of all of the components behind the eq. Also you effect one of the good things that could come from your system. The frequency response of the direct output of your speakers.

If you speakers have a reasonably flat frequency response and equalization is introduced into the system, you could change the frequency response for the worse.

E-Stat
04-30-2004, 10:31 AM
I know a poorly made photograph when I see one.
A thousand pardons for my quick pic on the Sony digital. These glamor shots came from the Burmester site.

<img src="http://burmester.de/images/mat/cd-laufwerk-969-big.jpg">

<img src="http://burmester.de/images/mat/da-wandler-970-big.jpg">

rw

skeptic
04-30-2004, 11:04 AM
The photography appears to be decent but hardly out of the ordinary. The styling of the equipment is about the same.

E-Stat
04-30-2004, 11:13 AM
The styling of the equipment is about the same.
That would be because they are the same units - just different pics. The first picture is the one in a system I've heard.

More info if you care:

<a href="http://burmester.de/english/productlines/da-converter-970.html">DAC</a href>

<a href="http://burmester.de/english/productlines/cd-transport-969.html">Transport</a href>

rw

Resident Loser
04-30-2004, 11:21 AM
...Have you ever compared this unit(s) to anything else based on thr Philips CDM 9 PRO?

I mean, while they are certainly impressive units and commensurately expensive(I'm sure), how much of that expense is really required...the plinth, the substantial faceplate, the panels/chassis...the plating and/or polishing...the connectivity options...user adjustable filters...I can't help thinking the cost for all of the bells, whistles and ornamentation far exceeds that of the mechanicals and required electronics.

Your use of the phrase "glamour photography" speaks volumes as does the mfrs.catchphrase "Art For The Ear"..I always thought the performance was the art...

jimHJJ(...I love good food, but I don't eat ambiance...)

E-Stat
04-30-2004, 11:34 AM
...Have you ever compared this unit(s) to anything else based on thr Philips CDM 9 PRO?
No, I have not.


I mean, while they are certainly impressive units and commensurately expensive(I'm sure), how much of that expense is really required...the plinth, the substantial faceplate, the panels/chassis...the plating and/or polishing...the connectivity options...user adjustable filters...I can't help thinking the cost for all of the bells, whistles and ornamentation far exceeds that of the mechanicals and required electronics.
No question there as this is clearly a "best we can do regardless of price" statement product. By any sane reasoning, it is not worth it's rather steep pricetag. It is, however, a stellar sonic accomplishment that will be a hard act to follow. Now, if Toshiba could match it's performance for one hundredth the cost, they would make many an audiphile very
happy.

rw

FLZapped
04-30-2004, 11:54 AM
why will not you guys answer some simple questions.

WHAT HAVE YOU LISTENED TO????

Allow me to make this as simple as possible.....IT ISN'T RELAVENT!

-Bruce
:rolleyes:

Sondek
04-30-2004, 01:08 PM
Allow me to make this as simple as possible.....IT ISN'T RELAVENT!

-Bruce
:rolleyes:

It is very relevant.

If one has only heard the offerings of Circuit city, there is no reference for detail or high end.

There is no comparision between what is found in a mass-market store and a high end store.

It is releveant that if someone has not listened to high end, at length (especially at home) they have no frame of reference to compare or comment.

skeptic
04-30-2004, 01:35 PM
Styling on these units is nothing to write home about. Actually, they look to be on the ugly side to me. Black and gold, Black and silver, black and black if it's done really well. McIntosh had some beautiful looking units. Harmon Kardon Nocturne series was really nice looking too but that's probably way before your time.

I've gotten to like carousels a lot. You can load several cds and even change some of them while one is playing. I'm getting sick and tired of getting up every time I want to change a cd. Do they have a carousel? Does this have a remote? Can you perform A-B repeat? Can you control the volume with the remote?

Poss
04-30-2004, 02:42 PM
The fact that one cannot prove two things are the same does not justify all sorts of positive claims. When the differences are prima facie below the JNDs, then claims of sonic differences are highly suspect.
You're missing my point. There is empirical evidence a difference exists. I for one can reliably tell the CD players in my household appart and the difference between them is not in the least subtle. It is true that my intimate knowledge of their sound makes me able to do that. Anyone with a little attention to detail could overtime identify differences in gear without a need for ABX. In most cases differences almost present themselves especially on material one is very familiar with. There's nothing scientific about this, only a matter of personal experience.


Of course one ordinarily has a reason for doing a DBT or SBT. Why would a consumer bother to do a DBT or SBT if he/she did not think they heard any differences? Maybe for the interest.
The only way of conducting such a test is setting it up in such a way that postulated (either theoretical or measured) differences are highlighted. Any other way will tend to obscure the issues the test is actually set to gage.

Selecting audio gear is no different but ABX testing is not very practical. Someone knowledgeable will look for added sonic performance not neccessarely based on price criteria. Price should only be used to define what one can actually afford and nothing more. I always take the stuff back home on loan for a week or so which is usually long enough to judge not only sonic character but also particular system matching of the said stuff. Most of the time I will use my headphones in the process just because it takes out the room/speaker variables out and it gets me more intimate with the way the gear in question plays my favourite tunes. Sometimes for instance changes could be really dramatic and if you're interested I could talk about it.


Many of us do not think informing consumers about unlikely claims is a waste of time.
I tend to agree here. However some members of this board are awfully... shall I say... repetitive.

You can get excellent sound rather cheap nowadays. That doesn't mean better performance is not available out there and sometimes price doesn't even change much in the process.

This is the message you guys should pass along.

Peace!

poneal
04-30-2004, 07:29 PM
I must say that this thread has really taken off. Surprisingly, myrthcraft has not responed to any of the derogatory comments about himself. Things that make you go hmmmm.

Mash
05-01-2004, 01:57 AM
vitriolic thread on this site before. Nor have I ever read such a stupid premise. I do believe the premise of this thread has completely exceeded all permissible bounds.

Deepthroat is reported to have told Bob Woodward to "follow the money".

I must wonder: Where is the money trail here? Why is the necessity of high-priced equipment, not to mention other expensive doo-dads, being pushed so viciously?

Some posters would seem motivated to silence the viewpoints seemingly espoused by Mtrycraft under the guise that they only wish to provide counterpoint. This attack is not counterpoint, nor does it seem particularly well-reasoned. It is merely a personal attack and only suitable for the Asylum site and a lawsuit.

Final thought on why the premise of this thread was a REALLY BAD IDEA :
Why on earth should Mtrycraft ever respond to this thread? It would compromise his legal position in pursuing redress for this sad episode. Now, if y'all think that Kuzma's and Burmesters are expensive, wait until you start paying a trial attorney $300 per hour to save your "legal butt".

E-Stat
05-01-2004, 04:03 AM
Do they have a carousel?
Nope.



Does this have a remote?
A rather heavy one at that.



Can you perform A-B repeat?
Pretty sure it does.



Can you control the volume with the remote?
With either balanced or unbalanced connections.

rw

996turbo
05-01-2004, 04:10 AM
What are you talking about?
Legal premise for what?
How has Mtyrcrafts reputation been damaged?
Seems that he was not the only one who was put down in this thread. My family and I have been attacked as well.
What kind of weasel crys lawsuit because of some thread on a website between some people with fake namkes and a degree of anonimity.

Lighten up

996turbo
05-01-2004, 04:12 AM
I think it is an awesome player. There are some people who just do not get it. There are many layers to the enjoyment of Life. Function although very important in life is not the only consideration. I feel sorry for someone who can not appreciate the nice lines of a Porsche or the smell of a pretty woman.
Form also plays into life. You are certainly paying for that in the burmeister as well as the porsche.

It is just what is important to you.

skeptic
05-01-2004, 05:05 AM
I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as a lawsuit is concerned. You are free to express your opinion that Mtrycrafts or anyone else is an idiot if the administrator allows it within the bounds of civil discussion here. Of course, by doing that, and the way you have gone about it, I have quickly come to the conclusion that a lot of other people here have probably come to also, and that is that if there is an idiot to be found here, it is guess who.....! That's right bub, just look in the mirror.

996turbo
05-01-2004, 05:40 AM
I don't think you have anything to worry about as far as a lawsuit is concerned. You are free to express your opinion that Mtrycrafts or anyone else is an idiot if the administrator allows it within the bounds of civil discussion here. Of course, by doing that, and the way you have gone about it, I have quickly come to the conclusion that a lot of other people here have probably come to also, and that is that if there is an idiot to be found here, it is guess who.....! That's right bub, just look in the mirror.

I think I have made a case for the arguments I have had in this thread. Say something meaningful or do not respond.

Pat D
05-01-2004, 11:52 AM
You're missing my point. There is empirical evidence a difference exists. I for one can reliably tell the CD players in my household appart and the difference between them is not in the least subtle. It is true that my intimate knowledge of their sound makes me able to do that. Anyone with a little attention to detail could overtime identify differences in gear without a need for ABX. In most cases differences almost present themselves especially on material one is very familiar with. There's nothing scientific about this, only a matter of personal experience.


The only way of conducting such a test is setting it up in such a way that postulated (either theoretical or measured) differences are highlighted. Any other way will tend to obscure the issues the test is actually set to gage.

Selecting audio gear is no different but ABX testing is not very practical. Someone knowledgeable will look for added sonic performance not neccessarely based on price criteria. Price should only be used to define what one can actually afford and nothing more. I always take the stuff back home on loan for a week or so which is usually long enough to judge not only sonic character but also particular system matching of the said stuff. Most of the time I will use my headphones in the process just because it takes out the room/speaker variables out and it gets me more intimate with the way the gear in question plays my favourite tunes. Sometimes for instance changes could be really dramatic and if you're interested I could talk about it.


I tend to agree here. However some members of this board are awfully... shall I say... repetitive.

You can get excellent sound rather cheap nowadays. That doesn't mean better performance is not available out there and sometimes price doesn't even change much in the process.

This is the message you guys should pass along.

Peace!
If one actually has the ABX comparator, then DBTs are relatively simple since there is no need for another person to administer the audition. However, they still require some controls to be very useful.

Now, sighted listening aside, how do you level match if you use headphones? How do you know whether you are simply hearing level differences or not? There are ways of doing this, of course, but do you?

Also, do you use the heaphone output of your preamp or receiver or do you use the headphone output of the piece of equipment under test?

However, it still remains that sighted listening is not reliable for detecting small sonic differences.

One may develop a preference by using a piece of equipment. We have no objection to that.

skeptic
05-01-2004, 12:11 PM
Your ignorance of electronics boggles the mind.

Poss
05-01-2004, 05:26 PM
If one actually has the ABX comparator, then DBTs are relatively simple since there is no need for another person to administer the audition. However, they still require some controls to be very useful.
This is how I bought one of my CD players a few years back. I also used to be a measurement freak at approximately the same time. Not anymore... no time to play with the toys nowadays.


Now, sighted listening aside, how do you level match if you use headphones? How do you know whether you are simply hearing level differences or not? There are ways of doing this, of course, but do you?
It depends. Sometimes my lazyness gets in the way but usually yes, I match the voltage output levels.


Also, do you use the heaphone output of your preamp or receiver or do you use the headphone output of the piece of equipment under test?
Very few sources have good headphone outputs. I only hook up to those occasionally but never if a meaningful result is to be had. The audiophile crowd may scoff at this but my main headphone amp is an old Sansui AU-999. The thing is almost as old as me (1970 I think...) but has new capacitors pretty much everywhere. At its time was Sansui's absolute nec plus ultra in solid state technology. Too bad Sansui could not keep up and too bad pieces built like this cost today somewhere in the wrong side of $5000.

Anyway to have a valid test one should keep the same equipment minus the piece tested.


However, it still remains that sighted listening is not reliable for detecting small sonic differences.
That's only true up to some point. I'm not saying more that if you own several CD players for instance, a little bit of level matching plus some reasonable experience in doing this could be a little eye opener. Try it, I mean seriously do try it. The skeptic in you could be in for a really unexpected surprise. I know I was. It could be really fun too...


One may develop a preference by using a piece of equipment. We have no objection to that.
True. However if the level of performance is not up there with what I now had come to expect, no matter how expensive or exquisite the gear is, I simply pass. The real education to consumers is to actually help them out identify what they would like and how to go about and search for it with a reasonable chance of success. Cheap is not neccessarely bad and expensive is not necessarely good either. As with any other field it takes all sorts.

It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.

Peace!

996turbo
05-02-2004, 03:33 AM
Mr. Poss,

I believe post like the one above show where the real ignorance lies.

It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.

That is exactly the point I have been trying to get across.

Sondek
05-02-2004, 05:41 AM
Mr. Poss,

I believe post like the one above show where the real ignorance lies.

It is probably more rewarding helping people understand the issues than monotonously repeating the "it doesn't make a difference" mantra.

That is exactly the point I have been trying to get across.

Semi rant...

The crux of the "nothing makes a differece" argument seems to be the following:

Measurements that are *NOT* all inclusive of a products performance (they leave out a lot of data/audible parameters, some of which are not properly measured at all)

Expectancy valence theory and bias "Oh that guy hears a difference because he expects to"

And volume matching.

I can say that given the same "volume" some components have a vastly different character than others. No, one is not likely to differentiate much within a narrow price band. But there is no doubt, no question, no argument that some components deliver detail that other components will not. I don't mean subtle, hard to hear things. I mean real definition, resonance, ambience, decay and such that separate HIGH fidelity from medium fidelity.

You can extract high fidelity from a mediocre product by modifying it with improved parts. There is no question about that. In a blind, or sighted test, whatever the circumstances, there are differences, and those differences do manifest themselves for quite a ways up the price chain. It does not mean however those expensive, and often overpriced components cannot be equalled or bettered for less money. But do not for a second think that $200- $300 will buy you a cd that is anywhere near as capable as a better player. The differences are not subtle.

The problem lies in listening experiance and often listening ability. Much like a good mechanic can listen to an engine run and determine what a certain sound means, a good listener can discern differences. The most reliable opinions from people I know, are those that are intimately familiar (read: long-term owners) of a specific setup, and they are sensitive to changes. Not some chap that swaps components each month, and doesn't spend a lot of time getting to know his recordings.

This is the day and age of convenient over substance, and instant gratification over attention span. Gone are the days when the masses appreciated classical overtures or even album oriented rock. AOR requires an attention span that is greater than the hip-hop generation usually has. If I had a dollar for every time I heard some teen comment "MP3 is cd quality" I could buy a lot of vinyl. Some people simply have no idea what fidelity is like, or how to properly listen.

Pat D
05-02-2004, 06:13 AM
Semi rant...

The crux of the "nothing makes a differece" argument seems to be the following:

Measurements that are *NOT* all inclusive of a products performance (they leave out a lot of data/audible parameters, some of which are not properly measured at all)

Expectancy valence theory and bias "Oh that guy hears a difference because he expects to"

And volume matching.

I can say that given the same "volume" some components have a vastly different character than others. No, one is not likely to differentiate much within a narrow price band. But there is no doubt, no question, no argument that some components deliver detail that other components will not. I don't mean subtle, hard to hear things. I mean real definition, resonance, ambience, decay and such that separate HIGH fidelity from medium fidelity.

You can extract high fidelity from a mediocre product by modifying it with improved parts. There is no question about that. In a blind, or sighted test, whatever the circumstances, there are differences, and those differences do manifest themselves for quite a ways up the price chain. It does not mean however those expensive, and often overpriced components cannot be equalled or bettered for less money. But do not for a second think that $200- $300 will buy you a cd that is anywhere near as capable as a better player. The differences are not subtle.

The problem lies in listening experiance and often listening ability. Much like a good mechanic can listen to an engine run and determine what a certain sound means, a good listener can discern differences. The most reliable opinions from people I know, are those that are intimately familiar (read: long-term owners) of a specific setup, and they are sensitive to changes. Not some chap that swaps components each month, and doesn't spend a lot of time getting to know his recordings.


There isn't any "nothing makes a difference argument." No one says that. It is simply a fact that people often say they hear differences under sighted conditions that don't show up in a DBT. We don't exempt ourselves from that, and we likely perceive the same sorts of differences under sighted conditions as most other people do. Indeed, most people will perceive differences when no change has been made.

Some equipment does sound different. Speakers, for example, will sound different (although the order of preference under blind and sighted auditioning may not be the same). Amplifiers with high output impedance will often sound different from those with low output impedance, as this will affect the frequency response into most speaker loads.

I am shocked to read reviews of expensive CD players that are mediocre trackers.

[QUOTE=Sondek]
This is the day and age of convenient over substance, and instant gratification over attention span. Gone are the days when the masses appreciated classical overtures or even album oriented rock. AOR requires an attention span that is greater than the hip-hop generation usually has. If I had a dollar for every time I heard some teen comment "MP3 is cd quality" I could buy a lot of vinyl. Some people simply have no idea what fidelity is like, or how to properly listen.
Well, I am not sure that people in the past were much different in their attention span. Some classical artists/performers have vast audiences. Tastes and styles in music change, of course.. One thing that people didn't used to have were the walkman's. Many people, even teenagers, seem to have hearing damage from using these things. MP3 apparently can sound very good. Vinyl is a niche market nowadays, and I still like to play some of my LPs.

Sondek
05-02-2004, 07:37 AM
Well, I am not sure that people in the past were much different in their attention span. Some classical artists/performers have vast audiences. Tastes and styles in music change, of course.. One thing that people didn't used to have were the walkman's. Many people, even teenagers, seem to have hearing damage from using these things. MP3 apparently can sound very good. Vinyl is a niche market nowadays, and I still like to play some of my LPs.

For a "niche" market, new vinyl outsells SACD 6:1. And there is a huge trade in used vinyl going on. Between 2002 and 2003, there was a 25% increase in vinyl sales. It's niche, but not *that* niche. SACD is niche at best.

And no, I'd say that the newer the generation, the shorter the attention span, and the higher the demand for convenience over quality. Vinyl is "too much work" for some people.

Poss
05-02-2004, 09:00 AM
And no, I'd say that the newer the generation, the shorter the attention span, and the higher the demand for convenience over quality. Vinyl is "too much work" for some people.
Turntables is maybe the only of the few source components in which better engineering translates DIRECTLY into better sound. High quality bearings and suspensions are NOT cheap at all and the performance difference between a Planar2 and a say Gyro is deffinitely obvious.

Not everyone is willing to shell big bucks for a format the majority of people perceive as dead even though in 90% of the cases high end turntables are worth every single penny.(not quite sure about stuff like the Rockport Sirius though...)

Peace!

996turbo
05-02-2004, 12:58 PM
Perfectly stated Mr. Sondek

Resident Loser
05-03-2004, 07:35 AM
...I have to agree with Pat D with vinyls' status as a "niche" market...even tho' it's my main source...simple comparison of sales numbers and availability pretty much renders it so IMO...unless you have a sizable analog collection(as I do) most folks spurn the medium....however, I whole heartedly agree with this:

"... I'd say that the newer the generation, the shorter the attention span, and the higher the demand for convenience over quality. Vinyl is "too much work" for some people...."

To me, the involvement is part of the what makes analog work for me...the ritual as it were. Just as there are those of us who enjoy applying a sharpening steel to a well balanced cooks' knife and slicing and dicing as required...it takes patience, practice, involvement and more than a "sound bite" level of concentration...or you can toss stuff into the ol' Cuisinart...not that there is anything wrong with a food processor, it has a place in my kitchen...but it also has it's limits...and then, of course, there are those who think food of prep as nuking teevee dinners or a trip to the local "scarf-and-barf"...

jimHJJ(...hmmm...I think I'm hungry...)

FLZapped
05-04-2004, 04:00 AM
It is very relevant.

If one has only heard the offerings of Circuit city, there is no reference for detail or high end.

There is no comparision between what is found in a mass-market store and a high end store.

It is releveant that if someone has not listened to high end, at length (especially at home) they have no frame of reference to compare or comment.


You know, I hate to call anyone clueless, but you most certainly fit the bill. What I've listened to, or what you've listened to, does not establish the basis in fact that compnent X and component Y sound the same, or different; Yet you persist on tryng to make some quality judgement based on completely uncontrolled listening, which is distorted by your set of values you subconsciously impose on what you're listening to before the first sound is ever heard from the device. Therefore, you can NEVER get an accurate assesment this way.

-Bruce

996turbo
05-04-2004, 05:44 AM
Just tell us what you have listened to and if you have made a concerted effort in a properly set up system. It sounds as if you have no experience. I am not saying that you do not but your stance is.

Tomorow I will have at my house three cd players.

Wadia 861
Sony SCD 777es
CAL cl-20

I will have these set up in my room with all the levels matched ( which I can do on My Spectral DMC-20 Series II ) We will hook all up with the same cable. I will then put the same cd in each player and put someone in the chair. I will invite you to my house any time to do tha same comparison. There will not be any sighted comparison here because as you probtally do not know there is no display on the Spectral. I am not really sure which player will sound the best but we will see. Is this controlled enough?

You never responded to my e-mail. I would love to set up a listening session with you.
give me a call.

E-Stat
05-04-2004, 01:06 PM
Yet you persist on tryng to make some quality judgement based on completely uncontrolled listening, which is distorted by your set of values you subconsciously impose on what you're listening to before the first sound is ever heard from the device. Therefore, you can NEVER get an accurate assesment this way
Absolutely. Similarly, why would anyone automatically think that an XTS5000 is one whit better than my trusty T5400? Some people are sooo judgemental. :)

rw

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:09 PM
I am having a hard time with this topic. I guess it is like a republican trying to talk with a democrat. The point of my post was not to debate the equipment. Everyone has a perception of what they think about wire or power or tweaks. I believe everyone has their right to believe what they want. Mtyr just seems to go on ad nosium about there being no difference in audio gear. If he believes that thats fine but my god every post that some one asks about it he pops up and says it does not matter.I have heard a difference and so has every person who has been to my house. That is all the proof I need. My wife has no psychological tie to any gear and she can hear a difference. These are her rights. Mtyr just sounds like a broken record.

What I meant by resolving power may not be something you are familiar with. It is detail and resolution where you can hear minute changes in your system.

My System
Sony SCD-777es
Spectral DMC-20 SeriesII
Plinius SA-250 MarkIV
B&W N803
PS Audio P300 for front end
PS Audio High Current UO for amp

Wire is Audioquest andVirtual Dynamics it is all plugged in to 2 20 AMP dedicated linesone for the front and the other for the amp.


Well, you are about to hear from me. It is an open forum, after all.
What you mean by resolving power is that you have ZERO concept of it as you have ZERO concept of all of the audio BS, how human perception works or doesn't work, what you imagine to be real or just tricks of the brain.

It would be best to know a bit before you call others names.
By the way, what relevance does my boombox have to what you are imagining?

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:13 PM
Like I have said My wife has heard the changes in my system for the better or for the worse. I understand what you are saying about the DBT but coming from someone who does not care about the gear (my wife) when she hears a difference it negates the need for it.


Oh, please. Show us her certification of immunity from bening duped into imagining things. Please do that for all of us.

Before you bury yourself as you have no knowledge of what you are discussing, best to just disengage in silence.

mtrycraft
05-05-2004, 10:20 PM
Ther is a very audible difference between a $200 sony and a $700 rega, and again from a $1200 cd player and so on. The diffrences are quite pronounced up to at least the $4,000 price point.


There is? And how do you know this? Maybe you are just imagining it? You have no idea.

All it takes is a reasonable system (synergy) comprised of decent separates that you would find outside the realm of circuit city.

To do what? Synergy? Really? Isn't that just another audio voodoo, urban legend? You wouldn't have some evidence for this nonsense would you?

Modifications can and do wark...like a champ.

Work? How?I guess you are smarter than the engineers who designed the components?

Some Tweaks work like a champ-tonality changes.

Really? How did you test this? Or did you? Imagined it maybe?

Sondek
05-06-2004, 01:42 AM
Ther is a very audible difference between a $200 sony and a $700 rega, and again from a $1200 cd player and so on. The diffrences are quite pronounced up to at least the $4,000 price point.


There is? And how do you know this? Maybe you are just imagining it? You have no idea.

No I am not moron. You are a retarded A$$hole. Maybe you are just imaging that you are not.

All it takes is a reasonable system (synergy) comprised of decent separates that you would find outside the realm of circuit city.

To do what? Synergy? Really? Isn't that just another audio voodoo, urban legend? You wouldn't have some evidence for this nonsense would you?

Yes, This thread is proof you are an A$$hole

Modifications can and do wark...like a champ.

Work? How?I guess you are smarter than the engineers who designed the components?

Don't have to be smarter than an engineer, just smarter than you, A$$hole

Some Tweaks work like a champ-tonality changes.

Really? How did you test this? Or did you? Imagined it maybe?

No, I imagine you have something better than JBL and denon, or normal hearing ability. but it isn't true. You are just a 5,000+ posting A$$hole

996turbo
05-06-2004, 03:50 AM
I had a friend over and we compared his new Wadia 861 to my Sont SCD-777es. We both thought the sony would sound better in SACD but the Wadia sounded better in redbook. There was a profound difference in the two. I do not need someone talking about psychological bull**** to tell me there was no difference in the two. Any idiot could immedietly tell the difference. I guess that precludes you Mtyrcraft.

Why do not you tell us when the last comparison of gear was and what pieces you compared were.

Do you even know what a Wadia is?

markw
05-06-2004, 04:55 AM
I had a friend over and we compared his new Wadia 861 to my Sont SCD-777es. We both thought the sony would sound better in SACD but the Wadia sounded better in redbook. There was a profound difference in the two. I do not need someone talking about psychological bull**** to tell me there was no difference in the two. Any idiot could immedietly tell the difference. I guess that precludes you Mtyrcraft.

Why do not you tell us when the last comparison of gear was and what pieces you compared were.

Do you even know what a Wadia is?

Way back "in the day" when big band music was popular, they would broadcast live events on AM, since FM was way off in the horizon yet. Granted, AM radio int hose days was better than it is today, but not "better" enough to simulate a live sound.

Wouldn't you agree?

Even with those grand behemoth consoles that were popular back then, their response was sorely limited in comparison to reality.

Wouldn't you agree?

In any case, one manufacturer had the cojones to set up a "blind" test between a live band behind a curtian and a RECORDING of that SAME band playing the SAME arrangement of the SAME song being played (at 78 rpm) through a console radio, also behind the curtian.

When asked which they preferred, a great majority "preferred" the sound of the recording to the sound of the live band.

996turbo
05-06-2004, 05:23 AM
I heard more of the music with the wadia and felt the emotion more. there was a real and palpable difference for the better in the Wadia.

FLZapped
05-06-2004, 08:41 AM
Absolutely. Similarly, why would anyone automatically think that an XTS5000 is one whit better than my trusty T5400? Some people are sooo judgemental. :)

rw

Certainly no kettle calling the pot black here. . . . .

-Bruce
;)

E-Stat
05-06-2004, 09:15 AM
Certainly no kettle calling the pot black here. . . . .

-Bruce
;)
Don't you love the irony? :)

rw

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 09:30 PM
All of these components had their own individual sonic signature. .

Yep, that is your perception but far from reality as you have zero idea what reality is or is not. That was apparent with your first words.
Oh, as to AA, be happy there. Why are you here? They will tell you what you want to hear, not what reality is, even from those so called experts. But how would you know if they are? Sheer speculation on your part.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 09:33 PM
No, I imagine you have something better than JBL and denon, or normal hearing ability. but it isn't true. You are just a 5,000+ posting A$$hole


How kind of you to call me names instead of posting fact. But then you don't have any facts, just speculations, imaginations, urban legends, voodoo, hype, silly nonsense. Be happy, enjoy the emptyness up there.

mtrycraft
05-06-2004, 09:42 PM
I had a friend over and we compared his new Wadia 861 to my Sont SCD-777es. We both thought the sony would sound better in SACD but the Wadia sounded better in redbook. There was a profound difference in the two. I do not need someone talking about psychological bull**** to tell me there was no difference in the two. Any idiot could immedietly tell the difference. I guess that precludes you Mtyrcraft.

Why do not you tell us when the last comparison of gear was and what pieces you compared were.

Do you even know what a Wadia is?


Ah, when you have no facts in hand, you make things up? As to who is the idiot, that is obvious. When you grasp some tiny bit of the science of audio, you may have a chance to discuss the issues. As is, you are in neverland of audio. Enjoy it. Reality sucks.

996turbo
05-07-2004, 03:22 AM
What exactly am I making up?

996turbo
05-07-2004, 03:29 AM
Mtyrcraft,

What I understand about you is that you are a ditchdigger with a boombox. Please tell me where in your grand existance have you gotten the personal experience to be the all knowing god of audio. You talk the psychological babble and tell others they are reading the wrong books and that you know it all about the technology behind these products. Am I to understand that you not only have your Doctorate in psychology but are also an electrical engineer.

FLZapped
05-07-2004, 08:02 AM
Don't you love the irony? :)

rw

Only if the iron is black too.....
:D

-Bruce

WmAx
05-07-2004, 01:11 PM
Mtyrcraft,

What I understand about you is that you are a ditchdigger with a boombox. Please tell me where in your grand existance have you gotten the personal experience to be the all knowing god of audio. You talk the psychological babble and tell others they are reading the wrong books and that you know it all about the technology behind these products. Am I to understand that you not only have your Doctorate in psychology but are also an electrical engineer.
I did not realize that mtrycrafts claimed to be the "all knowing god of audio". However, he does insist someone try to be logical. That's all he does. He provides a myriad of references to support his point(s) of view, unlike most people. Is this do diffifult(look at things logically and research) to do? What in the hell instigated this stupid thread in the first place??? I believe this thread should be deleted---the original poster suspended from his account for specific malicous intent of a person. Of course, no moderator to be found around these here parts....

-Chris

mtrycraft
05-07-2004, 10:28 PM
Mtyrcraft,

What I understand about you is that you are a ditchdigger with a boombox. Please tell me where in your grand existance have you gotten the personal experience to be the all knowing god of audio. You talk the psychological babble and tell others they are reading the wrong books and that you know it all about the technology behind these products. Am I to understand that you not only have your Doctorate in psychology but are also an electrical engineer.

What matters, is that you have no evidence for any of your claims, any of it.
Best if you expand your audio knowledge a bit more so you don't look so foolish posting instead of asking questions, researching audio, and learing before you enter into a debate or make unfounded claims.
The only relevance is what you can demonstrate with evidence, not by unreliable, unsupportable claims.

Colin^
05-08-2004, 05:34 AM
You're so Vain, I bet you think this post is about you, don't you?

996turbo
05-08-2004, 07:53 AM
you are on an audioweb board talking about equipment.

You do not believe there is any difference in Amps, Cd players or cable.

You think I need to do more research on audio?

How is it that?

http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/814/index.html

This is an interesting example of what we are talking about here. Just because we can not measure something with current test equipment dos not mean a difference does not exist.

We thought the world was flat and the earth was at the center of the universe at one time.

WmAx
05-08-2004, 08:42 AM
(http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/814/index.html)http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/814/index.html

This is an interesting example of what we are talking about here. Just because we can not measure something with current test equipment dos not mean a difference does not exist.

(http://www.stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/814/index.html)

Perhaps you should specifically quote what portion of text in that article you want to be noticed. It's not practical for someone to read the link in it's entirety just to find the portion you want to be read.

However, since Stereophile and their advertisers(I mean, uhm, manufacturers of the reviwed equipment) does not do controlled human testing on products that actually support claims of audibility made in Stereophile, their opinions on 'sound' of particular components are about as reliable and useful and as anyone else's unsupported claim. About the only 'listening' experiences I might begin to accept as most probably valid are if in a scenario someone claimed that a SET that produced 3 percent or more THD and/or signficant frequency respnose deviations under normal use was very 'different' sounding that most other amplifiers, I would tend to accept this as true since it correlates with known JNDs !!! :-)

-Chris

Poss
05-08-2004, 09:51 AM
... this thread has been.
What a waste this whole forum is. All pointless bickering between people with WAY too much time on their hands.

Want to do something REALLY helpful? Volunteer this wasted time to any of the churches, charities or abuse organizations in your neighborhood.

Peregrine Falcons are to be found more often in nature than good, solid advice in this forum. In this field, thorough, intimate, personal experience doubled by a good grasp of acoustic and electronic principles is paramount. Anyone could say anything in a public (more or less) anonymous forum about himself and his experience. The proof however is in the level of maturity and knowledge shown by our posts. I yet have to see someone in this forum acting (acting is is the key word here) like they actually KNOW what they are talking about.

At the end of the day we're just a bunch of arguing morons with internet connections and no other serious interests. I for one have learned more in my last 6 years of listening and enjoying my LP and (smaller) CD collection (remember enjoying the music?; what a concept!) than in 4 years of lurking and sporadic posting in this forum.

All the advice here is worth exactly the price you're paying for it.

Thats my 2 Canadian cents.

Peace! (if at all possible)

k fonseka
05-08-2004, 03:03 PM
Your blanket statement that japanese prouducts are crap suggest to me that you have a few brain cells missing yourself. I have owned a lot of audio gear over the years both japanese and non japanese. None of the Japanese products ever needed repairs while some of the non japanese "Audiophile" gear needed trips back to the dealer more than once. ( same goes for japanese cars - I own a Mitsubishi that has 190,000 km and still runs well and is very reliable )
As far as sound quality goes they do make some excellent products - you just have to look for it.

I agree with you that certain CD players do sound different. In particular I was able to reliablly pick out Pionner legato link, wadia (digimaster) and sony (Using switchable spline filter) under single blind conditions on different occations - compared to other players using the standard brick wall filters. There is a good scientific reason for this. These filters roll of the top end and are down by about 3db at 20khz.(they are also known as eqi ripple filters and behave better in the time domain but i dont know if this effect is audible) I happen to like this effect and use a Sony XBE 930E which has a switchable digital filter which mimics the pioneer/wadia filters. I wish i found about this long ago and would have saved myself a bit of money by getting off the "Upgrade ladder" as I was never satisfied with the CD sound previously. I picked on this player as it underwent Blind listening panel tests in a UK magazine called hifi choice and came out tops compared some very expensive machinary . HIFI choice regularly conducts blind listening panel group tests under rigerous level matched conditions (single blind only) and usually with some suprising results. Since to my knowledge they have not tesed cabled under blind conditions I can only assume the differences are minute if any.If you are serious about audio I suggest you give it a read as they do some rigeros testing including loudspeaker distorsion measurements - which i belive no one else does.

Lastly enjoy your hobby - no need to get your BP up - it is only a hobby

996turbo
05-08-2004, 04:54 PM
well said post. You are corect in my blanket statement being wrong. I personally own a bunch of Sony. I really do enjoy their products. I was primarily refering to the mass market expendable stuff.

psonic
05-09-2004, 01:02 PM
Mytrcraft is entitled to his opinion, as we are

Problem is..

Mytrcraft continually discounts the opinions and experiences of members here as imagining things or not in reality, without specifying why or what his experiences are with gear - hence, hi-fi is a myth

Mytrcraft is blinded into thinking a reciever or cd player made in china with $10 in parts sounds as good as any gear available

Mytrcraft is obviously biased against buying something that is not available at Walmart or the like

Mytrcraft believes serious home listeners, and for that matter even professionals in the music / studio industry are delusional and igorant and wasting money

Mytrcraft will not reveal what hi-fi gear he owns or has listened to or demoed, making it obvious the answer is none - I have asked him in the past

I couldn't resist going here Mytrcraft...Are you also under the impression that all beer tastes the same and Budwieser is as good as any beer? How can we prove it does or doesn't taste same? Even though different ingredients, how do we prove it tastes different? Are we just imagining it?

In Mytrcraft world we all go buy our $99 receiver and multi-player, the cheapest speakers and wires and go happily home knowing we have the best audio gear we can buy and the best audio our ears and minds can distinguish since all components sound the same and anything else is just imagination anyway...

hehehe

hehehe

hehehe

WmAx
05-09-2004, 04:50 PM
Mytrcraft is blinded into thinking a reciever or cd player made in china with $10 in parts sounds as good as any gear available

Mytrcraft is obviously biased against buying something that is not available at Walmart or the like

Really? Please point me to the specific posts. "ANY" is a pretty broad claim. I was under the impression he meant "Any properely designed equipment". Where did he proclaim to be biased, or insinuate he was biased against anything not available at Wal-Mart?


Mytrcraft will not reveal what hi-fi gear he owns or has listened to or demoed, making it obvious the answer is none - I have asked him in the past
More wild speculation?



In Mytrcraft world we all go buy our $99 receiver and multi-player, the cheapest speakers and wires and go happily home knowing we have the best audio gear we can buy and the best audio our ears and minds can distinguish since all components sound the same and anything else is just imagination anyway...

Just a suggestion: read the complete posts over time from user mtrycrafts ---- you may find you are not being accurate in your summary. Or perhaps you are just exaggerating in order to make yourself appear justified?

-Chris

996turbo
05-09-2004, 05:22 PM
Really? Please point me to the specific posts. "ANY" is a pretty broad claim. I was under the impression he meant "Any properely designed equipment". Where did he proclaim to be biased, or insinuate he was biased against anything not available at Wal-Mart?


More wild speculation?


Just a suggestion: read the complete posts over time from user mtrycrafts ---- you may find you are not being accurate in your summary. Or perhaps you are just exaggerating in order to make yourself appear justified?

-Chris
So what exactly is properly designed equipment? Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right. Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital amps. The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound. This is the thing he does not grasp.

WmAx
05-09-2004, 06:25 PM
So what exactly is properly designed equipment?For example, a CD player that has a noise/thd figure at or near the 96dB limit of RBCD, an even frequency response within 0.25dB up to 18khz, sufficient oversampling/upsampling and filter implementation to not produce audible transient byproducts in the audible band, etc.


Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right.This depends on the objective. If the objective is transparency(which is usually teh declaration), then simply staying within paremeters that prevent audible distortions/artifacts from being present.


Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital ampsIt is possible for any of these to have an even frequency response under the load of a loudspeaker, have excellent noise and distortion figures. All are examples of doing the same thing by way of a different path. Examples that have significantly audible deviations, I woudl consider improperly designed. FOr example, Stereophile recently reviewed a SET tube amp by Antique Sound Labs. This unit has specifications that were so poor, that it is really an example of incompetant engineering. Laughable. 10 percent THD at it's rated power output. AMplitude deviations of more than a dB under speaker loads,e tc. THis unit must have audible artifacts, since the problems occur at and over JND figures taht are well known as being within audilbe levels.


The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound. They should not. That should be the objective. But, some do, that is a fact. Then, the matter is, is this sound a byproduct of real, substantiatable phemonema or just the imagination, as a byproduct of subconscious stimuli? If the designer did the best possible, relevant to the current state of technology, and their budjet for the design to produce a device as close to ideal as I specified above, then I'll consider it properely designed.

-Chris

mtrycraft
05-09-2004, 09:05 PM
Every designer has a different aproach to equipment. Which is right. Tubes, Switching power supplies, Big solid state, Digital amps. The point is there are lots of designs and they all have their own sound. This is the thing he does not grasp.

Actually, it is you who doesn't or cannot grasp the reality of the audioworld.
You have no evidence that different design approaches have their own sound, unless they are designed to be euphonic on purpose, in which case, that component is not competently designed and is considered broken.

Many have been waiting for decades for your wisdom but you offer no evidence, so we still wait.

skeptic
05-10-2004, 03:17 AM
Generally the straightforward approach works best. Especially when it is applied at a high level of design and manufacture.

The sound of tube amplifiers is mediocre because of the limitations of the output transformer. Take away the transformer and they sound pretty much like the best solid state units. Add a transformer to a fine solid state amplifier it sounds like a tube amplifier.

The best amplifiers have huge well regulated power supplies and most are solid state. They can deliver plenty of power across the entire audio spectrum and the designer knew exactly how to apply negative feedback in a way that takes full advantage of its strengths while not compromising performance in any way. I will soon be looking at Crown CE-1000-A3 myself as an outstanding performer and an outstanding value.

A fine cd player for only $10? Why not when they are made in quantities of the hundreds of millions and even in the billions.

When products have matured to the point where they perform their function just about perfectly, no further performance improvement is detectable or usable. Consumer preference becomes a matter of bells and whistles and sometimes, some people prefer deviation from optimum performance. Such as with tube amplifiers. That's the genius of marketing. Less product, more money. It's about psychology, not technology.

996turbo
05-10-2004, 03:58 AM
Mytrcraft,

Everything in this world can not as of yet be proven by science. Ask a doctor detailed questions about how stem cells work and you will get only questions. Ask an astromomer how many stars are in the Galaxy you will get only speculation. Ask many questions and there are only questions. We are at the beginning of digital and electrical engineering. The point is that we do not even understand completely how upsampling works. I guess that in the end when we have perfect circuit topology and there is a perfect product they will sound alike. But at this point in time there is no perfection due to the engineers and products being far from perfect. There are audible differences in gear due to I guess you would call imperfections in engineering. Maybe the designer liked that sound with the given components he chose. This is the premise of spectral. They say they are at the limits of engineering with their speed. It is nieve of you to say thet all components are the same that would under your own rules say that the components are perfect. There is no perfection in life and that is why the different ideologies in gear design sound different.

E-Stat
05-10-2004, 03:59 AM
When products have matured to the point where they perform their function just about perfectly, no further performance improvement is detectable or usable.
Let's all hear it for the Hyundai Elantra!

rw

skeptic
05-10-2004, 05:21 AM
I see you are NOT and automotive engineer either.

E-Stat
05-10-2004, 05:46 AM
I see you are NOT and automotive engineer either.
No, I'm a software engineer who enjoys high performance cars and bikes. My favorite engineers are the Honda guys who got all three podium places yesterday at the MotoGP and fourth and eighth at the F1. But then again, Hyundai could take on Honda or Ferrari if they really wanted to. NOT!

rw

psonic
05-10-2004, 06:33 AM
"A fine cd player for only $10? Why not when they are made in quantities of the hundreds of millions and even in the billions. "

Not true newer stuff is about profits, lighter, cheaper faster = better for Sony or whoever is marketing the player. That is all they care about. What does a cheap player get you shortcuts, improvises, compromises. Just like their inexpensive receivers just full of compromises. Do you normally see a receiver advertised as having a toroid transformer or discrete circuitry or 4ohm drive capability? No it’s not cheap or fast to build that…Do you actually think Panasonic or Sony give a hoots tail about sound quality when it comes to inexpensive gear? The only thing advanced about the mass market product is 100’s more ways to make it cheaper.

Well case in point, I have a $400 cd player from around 93, the Rotel RCD855, I bought it used for much less. It is heavier than some integrated amps I've seen, with a large power supply inside and good quality components and heavy casing. Well you engineers here should know all this but, a cd player has basically 4 stages the transport, the Digital stage and the analog stage and the power supply. All cd players are going to offer a varying degree of quality / compromises at each stage. Yes / no? How much do you really know? Are you aware of such things as Chassis vibration reduction, jitter reduction, internal noise reduction, DAC, clock, opamps, capacitors, power supply components, muting transistors? How well do YOU know the internal layout of a CD player? I am not sure you do at all if you consider them all basically equal, not considering compromises to any of the mentioned sections.

Plain and simple my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp. Can I prove it to you? No I don't even care to, but I will tell you how ignorant you are on some views. Are you not aware that everything we buy in this world varies in quality or performance or physical makeup? Truth is there is no black and white, right or wrong with CD players or anything we buy for that matter. Nothing in this world has been perfected to 100% efficiency as far as I know. And fwiw I do agree with you on high priced cables, that is a big scam for sure. Especially to those who spend $1000’s on essentially wire. I use home depot 12g outdoor power cord & radio shack interconnects. IME returns diminish fast with cables. This has not been the case with CD players amps or preamps for me, so you can see I am not biased simply because of price or name.

I am truly sorry mtrycraft & friends but the shortcomings in the cheap gear you advocate can only be seen once next to a reference point. And I am only talking about CD Players used to output an analog signal, If you output digitally to a receiver, then CD players may sound the same. However there are those of us that need them to do well in analog and this is where too they really vary in both type of components used, quality of components used, number of compromises in the analog output stage and such as mentioned above. These are facts mtrycraft, this is not imagination or myth, man. Again, get to some hi-fi shops and listen to some gear, even if you have no plans on buying, maybe even bring your player in to A/B or blind test. If you want to make the test parameters stricter ask the dealer to do an in home demo, they will usually let you use for the weekend. Are you just bashing HIFI because you can't afford it or are too frugal to consider that something better? I hope not, there are plenty of used venues for good sounding gear.

ROTEL RSP-960AX Preamp
NAD 2600A 150wpc
Rotel RCD855 CD
Dynaudio Audience 60’s

skeptic
05-10-2004, 06:54 AM
"my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp."

Minor differences in the analog frequency response of a cd player are insignificant especially in a world where effective equalizers are also very inexpensive and widely available. I've noticed these minor differences too and have completely discounted them. Besides, by your criteria, you have no way to know between the two players which one is more accurate. Without measurements you have no way to know if the Sony mega changer isn't flat and the Rotel has a deliberate slight boost at both frequency extremes to make customers think it is somehow better. That's most likely the case.

psonic
05-10-2004, 07:11 AM
You are still refusing to accept some things in life are superior to others! The megachanger sounds shrill, thin and congested, meaning the intruments are out of focus and hard to pic out. Same with the dvd player. Not with the rotel, trust me it it was not better, I would gladly trade it for the convenience of the CD megachanger.

Its a mass produced pile of compromises, a real lightweight literally and figuratively...not so with the rotel.

You are the one being fooled my friend, if you beleive for 1 minute that the big names care about sound. You are the one fooled by marketing and gimmicks.

Again, go listen and see....

psonic
05-10-2004, 07:17 AM
from what I've heard on these boards, YOU are adept with electronics (at least theory) so you should easily understand the components I mentioned. Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality? Come on...

Resident Loser
05-10-2004, 09:43 AM
...who, due to limited distribution, have a certain mystique and cache. While casting no aspersions on the product, Rotel, NAD and others come to mind...seeems like all the upper-echelon audio "shoppes" rely on this fact...

It is well nigh impossible to do any side-by-side comparo with others in that group...manufacturers rarely allow head to head competition, as it might reveal they are reasonably interchangeable.

So when it comes to mass-produced products, high-end retailers have a similar philosophy...they dismiss it all as just so many "appliances"...as do the self-proclaimed audiophiles.

In a side-by-side demo, all things being equal, you would be surprised at the performance levels of some of what you consider "lesser" gear.

jimHJJ(..."fooled by marketing and gimmicks"...???...whoa, Nellie...)

996turbo
05-10-2004, 10:18 AM
I have an NAD 2100 that I bought while in college. My current amp is Plinius SA-250. A friend brought over the Bel Canto EVo 6. There were distinct differences in the amps. When the NAD was in the line it did sound pretty good until you gave it some volume. I did not do any fancy comparisons just played one and then the next. We did level match with an SPL meter though. These are three hugely different amps and they each sounded very different. I know this wil not be believed by some, but all there heard differences.

I guess it is kind of like pizza They all do the same thing (feed you). There are just lots of different flavors. One may not be better than the next but with a certain setup one will complement the desired sound better. I believe this is a better way to get my sound than an eq. Unless that eq is something like the Cello Pallette where a tremendous amount of time and care put into the piece so there was no signal loss through all the extra circuits.

This has been such a rediculous grouping of threads. I know I heard a difference in the above amps. Anyone telling me I didn't is wrong. There are too many components in an amp or cd player to say they are all the same. I understand that you guys say they all measure the same, but just because the current test equipment can not detect a difference thatdoes not mean one does not exist. From what I have seen all equipment has different outputs, different slew rates, current outputs and many other differences.

Have you ever been to the store to buy paint and asked for white paint? you will find that there are lots of white. Which one is really white. If you saw them individually they would all appear white, but next to each other they are all different colors.

Audio is similiar they are all trying to do the same thing but there are differences. You will say that we can measure the ingredients in the paints to see what the differences are. I would say the same about audio. An amp is the sum of its parts. there is no absolute standard as to what "well designed" is. Every manufacturer thinks their product is well designed or else it would not last.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-10-2004, 10:50 AM
I did not realize that mtrycrafts claimed to be the "all knowing god of audio". However, he does insist someone try to be logical. That's all he does. He provides a myriad of references to support his point(s) of view, unlike most people. Is this do diffifult(look at things logically and research) to do? What in the hell instigated this stupid thread in the first place??? I believe this thread should be deleted---the original poster suspended from his account for specific malicous intent of a person. Of course, no moderator to be found around these here parts....

-Chris

Chris,

I don't think Mtrycraft makes the claim of being "all knowing god of audio" but his behavior does implicate that. I actually record audio for a living, and have been doing so for about 20 years now. In spite of this(and his never having recording a single performance of anything for that matter) he can find himself challenging me on things I have been doing forever seemingly. He says what he knows is fact, however the consensus of the great majority that work in my industry completely disagree with his assertions. He says provide evidence, and when you do, he discounts it as irrelevant.

In the industry I work in, there are facts being disputed every day. Internet references are woefully behind the industry current events. White papers are published, and the facts of these papers disputed by others. The best that any audio engineer can do under these conditions is talk to other engineers and compare information. Often these exchanges are not public or published.

It is terribly difficult to explain why you do what you do to a person who has no experience or hands on knowledge of what you are talking about. Access to AES papers and carefully reading them doesn't garantee that you know all there is to know about the recording arts. Hell, I have been DOING this 20 years, and I am still learning.

I sometimes feel he takes an opposing opinion because he can, not because it is necessary. Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title

skeptic
05-10-2004, 11:21 AM
"Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title"

If you think he is bluffing, why don't you call his bluff? I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are. And they don't like it. He does not let people get away with blanket statements that are unsupported and fly in the face of scientific research and logic no matter how much advertising it got. Namecalling will never win any arguement. Not even here.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-10-2004, 11:25 AM
"my Sony megachanger and panny dvd player lack bass and sound thin & congested in comparison to the Rotel's sound. This is using the analog outs to my preamp."

Minor differences in the analog frequency response of a cd player are insignificant especially in a world where effective equalizers are also very inexpensive and widely available. I've noticed these minor differences too and have completely discounted them. Besides, by your criteria, you have no way to know between the two players which one is more accurate. Without measurements you have no way to know if the Sony mega changer isn't flat and the Rotel has a deliberate slight boost at both frequency extremes to make customers think it is somehow better. That's most likely the case.

As I have replied once before to your statements. Eq is not an answer to a components frequency response problems. The use of eq in this fashion constitutes a complete misuse. Eq is for use for room problems, not equipment or recording problems. Using it for anything other than room correction will certainly result in more problems than a cure.

Whatever setting you use on a EQ will effect the entire sound of the system. If the room is not the problem, change the component rather than using eq as a fix.

996turbo
05-10-2004, 11:39 AM
I will and have offered to do a test between components in my house. name the day and the time and I will arrange for a plethora of components. I have tried for Zapped but he will not return my e-mails. I love listening to different gear. lets do it!!!! I have five amps and three cd players at my house and could put my hands on lots more from friends. We can do whatever test you guys want and then you can write about it.

I am calling the bluff!!!!!!!

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-10-2004, 12:44 PM
"Mtry is no idiot. The man has the best bluff in the country, and no idiot can take on that title"

If you think he is bluffing, why don't you call his bluff? I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are. And they don't like it. He does not let people get away with blanket statements that are unsupported and fly in the face of scientific research and logic no matter how much advertising it got. Namecalling will never win any arguement. Not even here.

This gets the biggest whatever imagineable. When one provides facts,links, and experience this is discounted. How does one effectively mount a challenge when the person thinks only HIS facts are correct? I never presented blanket statements, and science does not know it all. If they did, they would not be backtracking or correcting every discovery they have made. Mr Skeptic, you have said some pretty questionable things yourself. What proof do you have that eq is a effective correction tool for the analog output of a CD player?

E-Stat
05-10-2004, 12:48 PM
I have yet to see anyone successfully challenge him even once. Quite the opposite. He challenges people who make statements and claims they can't back up with facts and then he pushes them on it until they back down or their statements are made to look as rediculous as they are.
That is not particularly difficult.

<a href="http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=19153&postcount=67">Two minute amnesia</a href>

rw

skeptic
05-10-2004, 01:19 PM
"As I have replied once before to your statements...."

And as I have replied once before to YOUR statements, the best part about arguing with you is when I give up because it is like the wonderful feeling you get when you stop hitting your head against a brick wall. The better choice is to not even start.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
05-10-2004, 01:24 PM
"As I have replied once before to your statements...."

And as I have replied once before to YOUR statements, the best part about arguing with you is when I give up because it is like the wonderful feeling you get when you stop hitting your head against a brick wall. The better choice is to not even start.

You give up because you know you are making crap up. There is no other reason than that. I wouldn't start anything I knew I couldn't win either, that would be a waste of time. I guess you are right, anytime someone comes up with the crap you have regarding acoustics, I guess I am like a brick wall.

skeptic
05-10-2004, 01:32 PM
"Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality?"

Actually I do. But it doesn't matter. When the parts they are made from reach the limit of what is possible for them, the issue disappears.

I wasted some time one night watching the history of screwmaking on the History Channel. When screws were first invented, they were expensive, rare, and their quality was awful. It was only probably about 150 years ago that mass production of high quality screws began. Today, nobody would think twice about the quality of screws they buy because unless you have some very special application, one is pretty much as good as another of the same type. They are "commoditized." The same is happening with cd players.

996turbo
05-10-2004, 01:37 PM
"Come on, do you really think sony cares about accurate or quality?"

Actually I do. But it doesn't matter. When the parts they are made from reach the limit of what is possible for them, the issue disappears.

I wasted some time one night watching the history of screwmaking on the History Channel. When screws were first invented, they were expensive, rare, and their quality was awful. It was only probably about 150 years ago that mass production of high quality screws began. Today, nobody would think twice about the quality of screws they buy because unless you have some very special application, one is pretty much as good as another of the same type. They are "commoditized." The same is happening with cd players.

A screw only has 1 or 2 components in the make up. I would think this is a bad example. Although I was building a swing set for my daughter and the screws that came with it were horrible. They would bend and break halfway into the wood. I know what you mean though. at the lower level of audio as well as many other goods they are pretty much the same. We have been trying to make you understand that there is a level of gear that is not "comoditized".

I once again ask anyone who thinks that a Plinius does not sound different than an NAD or a Sony cd player different than a Wadia come to my house where I have the gear to listen to and we will do whatever test you want.

996turbo
05-10-2004, 01:39 PM
Within Sony there are many price points.

Are you saying that every Sony sounds alike regardless of price?

Are they all the same player just a nicer box?

I do not think so. Why do not you call Dan Wright and ask him about the differences that exist. and then how much better he can make even the SCD-777es sound with his mods.

skeptic
05-10-2004, 03:37 PM
There will always be defective merchandise. And there will always be merchandise made by people who looked for every possible corner to cut and wound up cutting a few too many. But, then there are products like cd players. The beauty of a cd player is that it works perfectly or not at all. The transports now cost next to nothing having been mass produced by the hundreds of millions for computers. Power requirements are extremely modest so it doesn't take much to provide a good power supply. The difference is in the chips for the D/A. The beauty of that is amortization makes today's most advanced chips cheaper and cheaper with time until they cost next to nothing almost overnight. That is why, even if you don't feel the average players today equal the best, it won't be all that long before they catch up.

Only rare collectors buy expensive watches or fountain pens. Today the run of the mill digital watch keeps far better time than the best Rolex of 50 years ago and when the battery dies, you throw it away half the time unless you are fond of the bracelet. Owning a fine fountain pen was once an issue of pride and people rarely carried pens around with them. Today, most pens are probably lost long before they ever run out of ink and write perfectly every time to the point where you never even think about them. That is how most consumer electronic equipment is getting to be. It will become increasingly difficult for "high end" manufacturers to distinguish their products from mass market equivalents based on performance alone. All they will be left with is brand name prestige, styling, and massive design overkill which will be difficult to justify.

996turbo
05-10-2004, 03:51 PM
" It will become increasingly difficult for "high end" manufacturers to distinguish their products from mass market equivalents based on performance alone."

Thank you for agreeing with me. In that statement you said there is a difference. This is what I have been trying to say all along. I do think that sometime in the future it will be hard to distinguish between hi end and run of the mill. The question is how far will that be in the future? Technology has been progressing all of our lives. I have listened to some very good redbook as well as SACD. I think there will for the forseable future be a desire for Hi end. Computers get faster everyday, Cars get safer averyday, and audio will continue to get better. I agree that what is expensive today will be cheap tomorow. 20 years ago we thought cd was the perfect media. Today we are still improving on perfection with SACD and DVD-Audio.

mtrycraft
05-10-2004, 08:04 PM
I did not do any fancy comparisons just played one and then the next. We did level match with an SPL meter though. These are three hugely different amps and they each sounded very different. I know this wil not be believed by some, but all there heard differences.

Well, this may explain some of the problems. Did you use test tones to level match or just the music source? No bias controls so you just did a preference test, if that.



Audio is similiar they are all trying to do the same thing but there are differences.

Oh, but just as your examples, all can be tested properly for differences, to remove your biases from judgement. You didn't. So, it is just unreliable.


An amp is the sum of its parts. there is no absolute standard as to what "well designed" is.

You will find very few absolutes in life and in science.

But, all amps can be compared properly for differences so it has some meaning. Yours hase none.

[b] Every manufacturer thinks their product is well designed or else it would not last.[/QUOTE]

Not at all. It is the consumer who has to decide. And consumers, on the whole, are gullible or the consumer marketplace would be about half. All the psychics would be out of business, most of the cable makers would be out, holistic medicines would be in history books with homeopathic ones, and on it goes. Prof. John Mack would need a new career, Sylvia Brown would be homeless along with John Edwards, James VanPraagh and on.

996turbo
05-11-2004, 03:50 AM
So when are you going to come over or name the place to prove your point?

How many times do I have to ask. You have well over a thousand post showing how adamant you are. Time to prove it!!

Yes I did level test with a 1000k Test tone and adjust inputs on my Spectral DMC-20
I suppose it was a preference test but we all picked the amps and put them in the same order of preference. For example the NAD just flat ran out of gas in the Bass department. I think it would be good to have a Spectrum Analyzer here when you come over so we can see where the Amps start to roll off as it was obvious to all that the NAD rolled at higher volumes.

Sondek
05-11-2004, 04:03 AM
The whole "you can't prove this" again is 100% irrelevant.

No two products sound exactly the same. Measurements are not complete and do not show that each time.

For that matter, if I say I run test tones all day and a cheap cd player made them sound painfully bright, someone who was not there cannot tell me that statement is true or false.

Running pink noise out of a cd player into a simple resistive load on a o'scope is far and away not conclusive as to how it sounds.

The people that own quality gear are not imagining things. It's those with no experiance, no quality gear and poor understanding of how electronic components inside a player treat the signal that have the loudest protest.

I have never met anyone in my life (at least not since 1986) that is in the audio hobby that cannot routinely tell the difference between the detail of a cheap sony and a Krell. There is all kinds of information the sony does not produce, and if you can't hear the obvious difference, that is a severe hearing disability.

But it's obvious to me, some people can't here the difference between jack and sh**. They have an asinine blind faith in simple instrument measurements.

The only "oh yeah" prove it I can do is allow someone to listen to my system or any of those I have assembled. We know that a certain 5,000+ poster will never be privvy to most people's systems here, so all arguments he makes are 100% irrelevent.

"Prove it" he says.

I can post measurements all day long, and it won't matter until you hear it. Anything to the contrary is utter BS.

Solder makes a difference
Cd clocks make a difference
Shielding makes a difference
capacitors makie a difference
op amps make a difference

and engineers are smart enough to know that for $400 , many product compromises are made, not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included. There is only so much you will get so the company still profits.

So when someone really rams thier head up thier own A** and says "Be smarter than an engineer who makes it" they are making a brain-dead statement. Improving the existing components makes the player more capable than it already is.

A Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components.

There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo.

skeptic
05-11-2004, 04:22 AM
Exactly what would anyone accopmlish at your home? Do you have switching equipment to allow rapid AB comparisons? At the very least, that would be necessary to prove anything. I assume you have some duplicate cds as well. I also assume you have tried blind AB tests yourself many times and that is how you have satisfied yourself of their differences.

But even if there turns out to be minor differences in the sound of one amplifier or one cd player from another, how will YOU demonstrate that they are NOT due to small differences in frequency response which are easily adjusted for? Bob Carver once claimed he could make any amplifier sound like any other amplifier given 24 hours. He said that the difference was due to "transfer function" differences. That is technospeak for frequency response. And it is entirely plausible.

996turbo
05-11-2004, 04:34 AM
Once again

I have the ability to level match on my pre.
I have a computeter that I can make duplicates or if thats not good enough I will buy duplicates.
Scott Nixon is right down the road and he has all the test gear you could ask for.
I believe that test gear is not the whole answer as there are lots of things that can not be tested for but have an audible difference.

So what is the date?

Resident Loser
05-11-2004, 10:30 AM
"...Solder makes a difference..."

Ersin Multicore...the brand I use makes formulations other than the ol'standby 60/40 blend...it is made for solder baths and production line purposes...it solidifies quickly...it has no magical properties and Ersin does not claim it to have any...even JR(when he used to make an appearance @ this site)was forced to backpedal after my constant hammering re: certain claims and conceded that its main advantage was for the DIYer who was lousy at soldering...period.

"...Cd clocks make a difference..."

Don't know, don't really care...IMO digital is an approximation and deserves the same level of respect that HT does...very little to none...

"...Shielding makes a difference..."

No! Really?...Thanks for stating the bleedin' obvious...this proves what?

"...capacitors makie(sic) a difference..."

Way back when, mil-spec was the real deal(still is?)...Mark Levinson used them in his early offerings...tight tolerances and high rejection rates equals higher prices...most(if not all) of the "wonder-" "super-" whatever stuff is just mil-spec'd in a fancy wrapper(like cables and such)...and the "word-of-mouth" hooey about them has created even higher prices without commensurately better performance...

"...op amps make a difference..."

I prefer discrete components over ICs...I'm not sure where op amps are, in the grand scheme of things...controlling circuits?

"...not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included..."

Best? In what way? Longevity? Measureable...Better separation or FR or distortion? Also measureable...there is very little that isn't a...er...measureable...

"...Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components..."

Sure drop in a K&N Filtercharger or a Borla exhaust...Jacobs ignition or a hotter cam...maybe port and polish and a better set of headers...all dyno measureable...a little wrenchin' and a busted knuckle or two and the average shade-tree mechanic can do it. All the auto after-market folks make claims and publish numbers, charts and graphs, they have hard data to back up their claims...dem pesky measurements agin! What exactly is "...100% true for all audio components..."

"...There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo..."

jimHJJ(...well, at least we can agree on one thing...)

996turbo
05-11-2004, 10:39 AM
The whole point is that measurements do not tell the only story. There are lots of refernces where an audible difference occured outside of measurable changes. I put a link to a comment by a DCS engineer who stated this very thing about upsampling. They know there is an improvement in sound but they do not know exactly where it is yet. There are lots of things that exist in this world that are beyond the current technology to measure.

Do you believe in god?

996turbo
05-11-2004, 10:40 AM
Oh yeah. what is the date. Either put your money where your mouth is or stop talking about it.

Resident Loser
05-11-2004, 11:07 AM
...your last two posts are threaded to mine but make absolutely no sense...particularly since I responded to Sondek..

jimHJJ(...I really dislike the new formats...)

996turbo
05-11-2004, 11:16 AM
I know this format is somewhat confusing.

I was refering to Skeptic. But you of course are included in those invited to have the test.

Resident Loser
05-11-2004, 11:26 AM
"...I know this format is somewhat confusing..."

Not confusing if you pay attention...

"...I was refering to Skeptic..."

Then, you should have replied to HIS post.

Scroll down to the "Display Mode" and activate "threaded" and you'll see what I mean...

jimHJJ(...quite simple really...)

996turbo
05-11-2004, 11:30 AM
I see I was on Linear.

Don't get so testy. I will modify from now on.

Resident Loser
05-11-2004, 11:35 AM
"...I see I was on Linear...Don't get so testy...."

jimHJJ(...you think THAT'S an example of me being testy?...)

996turbo
05-11-2004, 11:42 AM
Come on do you guys have to be argumentative all the time or are you just naturally like that.

I admit openly and freely I did not know I was posting improperly.

Sondek
05-11-2004, 11:47 AM
"...Solder makes a difference..."

Ersin Multicore...the brand I use makes formulations other than the ol'standby 60/40 blend...it is made for solder baths and production line purposes...it solidifies quickly...it has no magical properties and Ersin does not claim it to have any...even JR(when he used to make an appearance @ this site)was forced to backpedal after my constant hammering re: certain claims and conceded that its main advantage was for the DIYer who was lousy at soldering...period.
--I wouldn't use that crap. I am 2m capable. I use Cardas quad eutectic. Much superior. Blows 60/40 into the dirt.

"...Cd clocks make a difference..."

Don't know, don't really care...IMO digital is an approximation and deserves the same level of respect that HT does...very little to none...

--Make a lot of difference, you just have no clue. You are talking out of your own A$$ with NO experiance at all. You should shut up.

"...Shielding makes a difference..."

No! Really?...Thanks for stating the bleedin' obvious...this proves what?

--That you have no clue..it's obvious from this "dog barking from a corner" post oif yours.

"...capacitors makie(sic) a difference..."

Way back when, mil-spec was the real deal(still is?)...Mark Levinson used them in his early offerings...tight tolerances and high rejection rates equals higher prices...most(if not all) of the "wonder-" "super-" whatever stuff is just mil-spec'd in a fancy wrapper(like cables and such)...and the "word-of-mouth" hooey about them has created even higher prices without commensurately better performance...

--Says you. because again, you obviously have *zero* expeirance and are simply speaking from a corner with no clue whatsoever.

"...op amps make a difference..."

I prefer discrete components over ICs...I'm not sure where op amps are, in the grand scheme of things...controlling circuits?
--No. they amplify the output of the DAC. They can make a HUGE, obvious difference. But again, you obviously have no idea.

"...not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included..."

Best? In what way? Longevity? Measureable...Better separation or FR or distortion? Also measureable...there is very little that isn't a...er...measureable...

--You have no clue. you are interjecting "i don't knows" You must stop projecting your total lack of real experiance. There is an audible and measurable difference.


"...Corvette is NOT as fast as it could be with simple mods, it is merely tuned for optimum lifespan and streetability. I don't have to know more than GM to realize the engine acts like an air pump, and it has been artificially limited for various reasons. That potential can be tapped and exploted with a few mods. the same is 100% true for almost all audio components..."

Sure drop in a K&N Filtercharger or a Borla exhaust...Jacobs ignition or a hotter cam...maybe port and polish and a better set of headers...all dyno measureable...a little wrenchin' and a busted knuckle or two and the average shade-tree mechanic can do it. All the auto after-market folks make claims and publish numbers, charts and graphs, they have hard data to back up their claims...dem pesky measurements agin! What exactly is "...100% true for all audio components..."

--I have also modded cars. The mods up power greatly. That isn't even a contestable fact. Any component can be improved over basic design...100% of them. Speakers, cd players, sources, amps and so on. None are perfect, all can be improved.


"...There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo..."

jimHJJ(...well, at least we can agree on one thing...)

--None of the mods are voodoo. they are electrically superior. But again, you show no knowledge of what you complain about. Very strong opinion based on weak knowledge and no experiance. How pathetic. You have simply rammed your foot right down your own throat with sheer stupidity. Good show!

Resident Loser
05-11-2004, 12:11 PM
...a remedial reading course...your lack of understanding is quite astonishing...

jimHJJ(...Cardas eutectic?...same production-line $h!t I mentioned...Cardas don't own the word "eutectic"...and I'll bet they buy it in bulk and slap their own label on it...)

996turbo
05-11-2004, 03:50 PM
Hey Loser. Skeptic, and Mytrcraft.

When are you going to put your money where your mouth is and answer my challenge?

mtrycraft
05-11-2004, 05:45 PM
The whole point is that measurements do not tell the only story.

That is because you cannot understand them and rely on rags like Stereopile. No wonder you post what you don't understand.

There are lots of refernces where an audible difference occured outside of measurable changes.


Hogwash. Your link is not one of them. Just an unsupported claim. There is no reference to a Credible DBT listeing that determoned their claim. Oh no, that would be too simple but not yield what they want.
LOL

I put a link to a comment by a DCS engineer who stated this very thing about upsampling. They know there is an improvement in sound but they do not know exactly where it is yet.

No they don't know antthing. I didn;t see any references to evidence for differences other than their empty claims. Certainly no DBT listeing data. Where is that?
Just a marketeer trying to sell to the gullible audiophile.


There are lots of things that exist in this world that are beyond the current technology to measure.

Maybe, maybe not. That5 doesn;t correlate to your imagining audible differences as that is all you have demonstrated so far.

Do you believe in god?

That is all one can do is believe. Certainly not evidence based, is it? But, if you want to believe, enjoy.

mtrycraft
05-11-2004, 05:46 PM
--None of the mods are voodoo. they are electrically superior. But again, you show no knowledge of what you complain about. Very strong opinion based on weak knowledge and no experiance. How pathetic. You have simply rammed your foot right down your own throat with sheer stupidity. Good show!


Again, you have not posted any evidence. Imagined again?

mtrycraft
05-11-2004, 05:55 PM
The people that own quality gear are not imagining things.

Of course not. They have a certificate of immunity from imagination. LOL. Too funny.


It's those with no experiance, no quality gear and poor understanding of how electronic components inside a player treat the signal that have the loudest protest.


Ah, and you have all the qualifications, right? LOL.


I have never met anyone in my life (at least not since 1986) that is in the audio hobby that cannot routinely tell the difference between the detail of a cheap sony and a Krell.



Maybe you have been running around with the wrong crowd. Change friends. Do some DBT listeing.



But it's obvious to me, some people can't here the difference between jack and sh**. They have an asinine blind faith in simple instrument measurements.

Obvious to me that your imagination has no bounds. Maybe you would do well in Hollywood?

so all arguments he makes are 100% irrelevent.

Not as irrelevant as yours. LOL.


Solder makes a difference
Cd clocks make a difference
Shielding makes a difference
capacitors makie a difference
op amps make a difference

Yep, next you will tell us you can hear it? LOL.

and engineers are smart enough to know that for $400 , many product compromises are made, not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included. There is only so much you will get so the company still profits.

Well, I guess you forgot to tell those engineers who produced the $80 RCA CD player that was not differentiated in sound from ones costing $ 1000s. You are too funny for words.




There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo.

Yet you keep believing in voodoo, hype, myth, bs. Why?

mtrycraft
05-11-2004, 05:58 PM
Mytrcraft,
There is no perfection in life and that is why the different ideologies in gear design sound different.


Hogwash. Only incompetently designed components sound different. Anyone can design euphonic components. Maybe that is what you have.

You must believe that your hearing has no limits. LOL.

996turbo
05-12-2004, 03:44 AM
Hogwash. Only incompetently designed components sound different. Anyone can design euphonic components. Maybe that is what you have.

You must believe that your hearing has no limits. LOL.

So why are there so many different Sony players?
Purely for marketing?

When are you going to stop believing everything you read and put your money where your mouth is and enter the test with me. If you do not respond to my challenge I and the rest will just come to the conclusion that you are merely a hot air balloon. You have put soooo much time on this board attempting to prove your point why do not you put some action behind that hot air.

996turbo
05-12-2004, 03:46 AM
And by the way no body would consider Spectral euphonic.
My cd player is the sony scd-777es which nobody would consider euphonic either.

Resident Loser
05-12-2004, 04:27 AM
...you find neither unit to be pleasing?

jimHJJ(...well la-de-da...)

996turbo
05-12-2004, 04:40 AM
Hey Loser
By the definition that Mytr was using he implies that thay are not neutral and they are not linear in their frequency extension. They do both extremely well.
The strict definition is that they are agreeable, which they are. But it is you buddy who has been using the word to mean a product that was intentionally designed to sound pleasing without regard to making it flat across the frequency spectrum.

You do not have to be such an a$$ all the time do you?

Resident Loser
05-12-2004, 05:29 AM
...there are other ways to enjoy oneself when not witnessing people make fools of themselves...

How typical...make that "stereo"typical...when confronted with anything that challenges your belief system you resort to insults and other desultory tactics...let's see if I can paint a word-picture for you...

You purchased your gear at the recomendation some dumb-@$$ audiophile(so-called)friend or salesman(who, in all likelihood, would be quite comfortable selling refrigerators or used cars...a true"salesman" after all) at some "salon"..."You must buy this, all the other stuff is crap"...you read(and believe) all the wishful thinking you see in the more"esoteric" mags...maybe a collection of some "audiophile" discs to wow friends and family...so, you have plunked down a few grand on this stuff and now you are above it all...you remember what they said to Charlie the tuna?

Last things first...what exactly did I "complain" about...and "experiance"? I have been exposed to hi-fi for forty years now and have thirty-five years dealing with I&R of electronics...I've used more solder and CAT5 wire than you have had hot meals...Money you have spent does not equate to a qualification of your "golden-eared" status...

Next, after-market car parts are(for the most part) designed, produced and field-tested for an increase in MEASUREABLE performance and safety...it's not some "whiz-kid" who decides to put a mil-spec cap into his whatzis and declares "Eureka!", gathering all the sheep to his door...

With regard to digital anything...I really could care less...it is a flawed medium at it's core...all the bells and whistles in the world can't take up the slack...Most if not all CDPs rely on Sony or Philips for their transports(you know those "mass-market" companies)...put 'em in some fancy shell with analog sections that impart a specific sonic "signature" and tout 'em as manna from heaven...

Shielding is shielding...it blocks RFI and such...where would you like to go to with that line of "reasoning"?

Now solder...oh, and BTW, pardon my ignorance, what means "2m capable"? My company is ISO 9000 certified, another "big deal" moment... in a previous post I spoke of catchphrases and their relation to "psuedo-science"...use the right words and you will really impress the more gullible..."eutectic" simply means having the lowest melting point...Cardas doesn't have a monopoly on the word...it has no specific electronic advantage, will not "extend the bass" or "reveal inner details" contrary to the opinions of some...Like IEC AC cords, purely an economic consideration...

jimHJJ(...as P.T. Barnum supposedly said " this way to the Egress"...)

Resident Loser
05-12-2004, 05:44 AM
...not me, you must be confused...

And now, I suppose you can read Mtrys mind and infer something into his word usage? Case in point, you see what you want to see, ergo...you hear etc....

"...You do not have to be such an a$$ all the time do you?..."

That's rich...you can't even negotiate this website or respond to the proper posts and you expect us to rely on your "authoritative" anecdotal citations...really perceptive are you...

"neutral" ,"linear" AND "frequency extension"...all in the same sentence!!! You should seek employment at an ad agency...

jimHJJ(...haven't had this much fun in a loooong time...)

996turbo
05-12-2004, 06:13 AM
"That's rich...you can't even negotiate this website or respond to the proper posts and you expect us to rely on your "authoritative" anecdotal citations...really perceptive are you..."

I am not expecting anything. I want you guys to come over and we can prove it ourselves. How many times am I going to have to ask the question for a response. Either answer my challenge or get off the preverbial pot!

Sondek
05-12-2004, 06:29 AM
...a remedial reading course...your lack of understanding is quite astonishing...

jimHJJ(...Cardas eutectic?...same production-line $h!t I mentioned...Cardas don't own the word "eutectic"...and I'll bet they buy it in bulk and slap their own label on it...)

You just proved my point...look up the word eutectic, it has NOTHING to do with Cardas. Not to know what eutectic means , is PROOF you have a totally hollow, straw man argument, and absolutely NO experience soldering high reliability. It's basic terminology.

You might as well put lipstick on your rectum, because that is where your argument comes from. To Cardas quad eutectic anything less than superb is totally, purely wrong, and indicative of a very bad argument.

The composition of the solder is tin, copper, silver and lead. It is a superior solder to 60/40 or anything like it.

Anyone who reads this guys post and argument should instantly, and completely file-13 it. It's like someone claiming to be a master mechanic, tell you why a Porsche isn't any good, while having no idea what a combustion cycle is.

This Mtrycrafts/resident loser/village idiot argument it the worst I have seen yet. it is ironclad proof they are speaking from TOTAL lack of knowledge and TOTAL lack of experience. They are not qualified to comment, let alone nay say.

Again, measurements will bear out mod improvements the same way a dynamometer will indicate horsepower gains.

Pathetic, as pathetic can get. :(

Resident Loser
05-12-2004, 06:41 AM
"...put lipstick on (my) rectum..."?

Want to kiss my @$$?

jimHJJ(...so much for the "Hooked On Phonics" for imbeciles...you are fortunate that heartbeat and respiration are controlled by the autonomic nervous system...if you had to think about it you would be dead...)

Sondek
05-12-2004, 06:43 AM
The people that own quality gear are not imagining things.

Of course not. They have a certificate of immunity from imagination. LOL. Too funny.

--No they don't you twit. Again, you are the ultimate straw man. your asinine, baseless arguments. You can't hear any difference, I'd not be surprised if you are clinically deaf. Again, your midfi junk JBL/denon system has no detail to speak of, and is a bad reference in which to cast rocks.


It's those with no experiance, no quality gear and poor understanding of how electronic components inside a player treat the signal that have the loudest protest.


Ah, and you have all the qualifications, right? LOL.

--Yes I do, far beyond yours. far more than your sad experiance. You have more experiance at vocalizing through your rectum, creating hollow straw man accusations, and nay saying with virtually no knowledge of high end or electronics. Life is more than an SPL and multimeter. And proof is also.


I have never met anyone in my life (at least not since 1986) that is in the audio hobby that cannot routinely tell the difference between the detail of a cheap sony and a Krell.

Maybe you have been running around with the wrong crowd. Change friends. Do some DBT listeing.

--I have done far more than you have. I have an abx comparator at my disposal. What model is the one you have?


But it's obvious to me, some people can't here the difference between jack and sh**. They have an asinine blind faith in simple instrument measurements.

Obvious to me that your imagination has no bounds. Maybe you would do well in Hollywood?

--No, I do very well without babbling A$$monkies like you. You are nobody. no one has to prove anything to your deaf A$$. What a wart on the A$S of society you are. Totally worthless. I urge you to commit suicide and make the world a better place.

so all arguments he makes are 100% irrelevent.

Not as irrelevant as yours. LOL.

You are totally worthless, and irrelevent. you are deaf, with a irrelevent midfi system. You have never listened to any high end gear of any kind, and even if you did, you have abnormally bad hearing ability so it doesn't matter. You are in the wrong hobby, that is unless your hobby is strictly to be an A$$hole.


Solder makes a difference
Cd clocks make a difference
Shielding makes a difference
capacitors makie a difference
op amps make a difference

Yep, next you will tell us you can hear it? LOL.

Yes, A$$hole, as clearly as I could hear you moaning if someone crushed your skull with a brick. I wish that would happen, I really do.

and engineers are smart enough to know that for $400 , many product compromises are made, not allowing the best analog stage or other compoenents to be included. There is only so much you will get so the company still profits.

Well, I guess you forgot to tell those engineers who produced the $80 RCA CD player that was not differentiated in sound from ones costing $ 1000s. You are too funny for words.

Only for deaf a$$holes like you. Stick to boomboxes and $80 cd players. That is all a deaf loser a$$wipe like you needs. Again, please throw yourself off a bridge.




There is always room for improvement with science, not voodoo.

Yet you keep believing in voodoo, hype, myth, bs. Why?

I believe in fact, stuff I can hear. It is no myth that you are a come-sucking a$$hole.

996turbo
05-12-2004, 06:48 AM
Holy Crap Dude

That was hilarious.
I will buy you a beer any day.
I am glad I started this thread because replys like that one are great.
These measurement wackos are a trip. Notice not one of them will step up to the plate for a comparison. That is all the proof I need.

FLZapped
05-12-2004, 08:50 AM
Just Noticeable Differences.


Zapped by Jitter is in the same "don't tell" camp as Mtry. He finds such exchanges of useful information as "traps" to his integrity and authority as an engineer with "exposure".

<a href="http://forums.audioreview.com/showpost.php?p=19279&postcount=71">Exposure to what?</a href>

rw


Awwww, poor baby, still smarting because I refused to play your snobbery game? Grow up. It is entirely irrelevant what I own, what I listened to today, what I will listen to tomorrow, or what I will own in the future. It does not provide any basis in fact regarding audible differences.

-Bruce

996turbo
05-12-2004, 09:02 AM
How can you say that.
Just because you have read something it does not mean you have experienced it. If Human kind relied soley on what others had experienced we would go nowhere.

I understand you believe what you have read.
I guess it just shows how much of a pioneer you are or lack there of.

mtrycraft
05-12-2004, 09:44 PM
How can you say that.
Just because you have read something it does not mean you have experienced it. If Human kind relied soley on what others had experienced we would go nowhere.

I understand you believe what you have read.
I guess it just shows how much of a pioneer you are or lack there of.

You want to be a pioneer? Find a field that needs discovering or pioneering work. Testing for audible differences is very old news. And your approach is rather archane.
Audio diesn't need a beliefe system. It needs facts to base it on. You don't have any. If you want to reinvent the wheeel, try not to screw up history too badly. May make you look foolish.
Make sure your experiences are reliable and worth something.

996turbo
05-13-2004, 03:37 AM
Ok Mytr lets have a reliable and meaningful test.

Answer the challenge or get off the pot.

No need for pioneers?

I guess the 8 track is where we should of stopped. Or tubes. Or single driver speakers. No Pro logic. No DTS. Come on there is always room for improvement. I

mtrycraft
05-13-2004, 08:09 PM
Ok Mytr lets have a reliable and meaningful test.

Answer the challenge or get off the pot.

No need for pioneers?

I guess the 8 track is where we should of stopped. Or tubes. Or single driver speakers. No Pro logic. No DTS. Come on there is always room for improvement. I


What challenge are you talking about?

mtrycraft
05-13-2004, 08:13 PM
So why are there so many different Sony players?
Purely for marketing?

When are you going to stop believing everything you read and put your money where your mouth is and enter the test with me. If you do not respond to my challenge I and the rest will just come to the conclusion that you are merely a hot air balloon. You have put soooo much time on this board attempting to prove your point why do not you put some action behind that hot air.


Ah, that is the challenge.

It is you who needs to demonstrate what you can hear with only your ears, excluding your eyes.
Why would you be the first on the planet to demonstrate audible differences when sooo many before you failed? Right, no reason. You will fail.

mtrycraft
05-13-2004, 08:19 PM
"That's rich...you can't even negotiate this website or respond to the proper posts and you expect us to rely on your "authoritative" anecdotal citations...really perceptive are you..."

I am not expecting anything. I want you guys to come over and we can prove it ourselves. How many times am I going to have to ask the question for a response. Either answer my challenge or get off the preverbial pot!

Now we have to come to your house? How nice. Are you paying the air fare? I am sure Tom Nousaine would love to accept such a generous golden ear and show how poorly you can perform. As soon as the ticket is on the table, he will com, I am sure.

mtrycraft
05-13-2004, 08:22 PM
Once again

I have the ability to level match on my pre.
I have a computeter that I can make duplicates or if thats not good enough I will buy duplicates.
Scott Nixon is right down the road and he has all the test gear you could ask for.
I believe that test gear is not the whole answer as there are lots of things that can not be tested for but have an audible difference.

So what is the date?


Where do you live? I need to see if Tom wants to test you? Airline tickets to be mailed? Or you have a credit card number to use? after all, it is you who are making all these wild claims, no? How good you can hear? Right?

hertz
05-14-2004, 12:27 AM
...there are other ways to enjoy oneself when not witnessing people make fools of themselves...

How typical...make that "stereo"typical...when confronted with anything that challenges your belief system you resort to insults and other desultory tactics...let's see if I can paint a word-picture for you...

You purchased your gear at the recomendation some dumb-@$$ audiophile(so-called)friend or salesman(who, in all likelihood, would be quite comfortable selling refrigerators or used cars...a true"salesman" after all) at some "salon"..."You must buy this, all the other stuff is crap"...you read(and believe) all the wishful thinking you see in the more"esoteric" mags...maybe a collection of some "audiophile" discs to wow friends and family...so, you have plunked down a few grand on this stuff and now you are above it all...you remember what they said to Charlie the tuna?

Last things first...what exactly did I "complain" about...and "experiance"? I have been exposed to hi-fi for forty years now and have thirty-five years dealing with I&R of electronics...I've used more solder and CAT5 wire than you have had hot meals...Money you have spent does not equate to a qualification of your "golden-eared" status...

Next, after-market car parts are(for the most part) designed, produced and field-tested for an increase in MEASUREABLE performance and safety...it's not some "whiz-kid" who decides to put a mil-spec cap into his whatzis and declares "Eureka!", gathering all the sheep to his door...

With regard to digital anything...I really could care less...it is a flawed medium at it's core...all the bells and whistles in the world can't take up the slack...Most if not all CDPs rely on Sony or Philips for their transports(you know those "mass-market" companies)...put 'em in some fancy shell with analog sections that impart a specific sonic "signature" and tout 'em as manna from heaven...

Shielding is shielding...it blocks RFI and such...where would you like to go to with that line of "reasoning"?

Now solder...oh, and BTW, pardon my ignorance, what means "2m capable"? My company is ISO 9000 certified, another "big deal" moment... in a previous post I spoke of catchphrases and their relation to "psuedo-science"...use the right words and you will really impress the more gullible..."eutectic" simply means having the lowest melting point...Cardas doesn't have a monopoly on the word...it has no specific electronic advantage, will not "extend the bass" or "reveal inner details" contrary to the opinions of some...Like IEC AC cords, purely an economic consideration...

jimHJJ(...as P.T. Barnum supposedly said " this way to the Egress"...)

Lol....exactly what do you mean by an anlog section that impart a specific sonic "signature"

hertz
05-14-2004, 12:27 AM
...there are other ways to enjoy oneself when not witnessing people make fools of themselves...

How typical...make that "stereo"typical...when confronted with anything that challenges your belief system you resort to insults and other desultory tactics...let's see if I can paint a word-picture for you...

You purchased your gear at the recomendation some dumb-@$$ audiophile(so-called)friend or salesman(who, in all likelihood, would be quite comfortable selling refrigerators or used cars...a true"salesman" after all) at some "salon"..."You must buy this, all the other stuff is crap"...you read(and believe) all the wishful thinking you see in the more"esoteric" mags...maybe a collection of some "audiophile" discs to wow friends and family...so, you have plunked down a few grand on this stuff and now you are above it all...you remember what they said to Charlie the tuna?

Last things first...what exactly did I "complain" about...and "experiance"? I have been exposed to hi-fi for forty years now and have thirty-five years dealing with I&R of electronics...I've used more solder and CAT5 wire than you have had hot meals...Money you have spent does not equate to a qualification of your "golden-eared" status...

Next, after-market car parts are(for the most part) designed, produced and field-tested for an increase in MEASUREABLE performance and safety...it's not some "whiz-kid" who decides to put a mil-spec cap into his whatzis and declares "Eureka!", gathering all the sheep to his door...

With regard to digital anything...I really could care less...it is a flawed medium at it's core...all the bells and whistles in the world can't take up the slack...Most if not all CDPs rely on Sony or Philips for their transports(you know those "mass-market" companies)...put 'em in some fancy shell with analog sections that impart a specific sonic "signature" and tout 'em as manna from heaven...

Shielding is shielding...it blocks RFI and such...where would you like to go to with that line of "reasoning"?

Now solder...oh, and BTW, pardon my ignorance, what means "2m capable"? My company is ISO 9000 certified, another "big deal" moment... in a previous post I spoke of catchphrases and their relation to "psuedo-science"...use the right words and you will really impress the more gullible..."eutectic" simply means having the lowest melting point...Cardas doesn't have a monopoly on the word...it has no specific electronic advantage, will not "extend the bass" or "reveal inner details" contrary to the opinions of some...Like IEC AC cords, purely an economic consideration...

jimHJJ(...as P.T. Barnum supposedly said " this way to the Egress"...)

Lol....exactly what do you mean by an anlog section that impart a specific sonic "signature"

996turbo
05-14-2004, 03:34 AM
I am the one who has the gear . You have never said what you have. I can only assume you do not have the cables or different players to choose from. I live in NC. E-mail me and we will make the necesary arangements.

Resident Loser
05-14-2004, 06:24 AM
...speakers are the most obvious. Most companies have a consistent "voice" in the various models across their entire line...it's their particular take on "hi-fi"...they may manufacture bookshelf, floorstanders, etc. larger models may produce "more" bass...but they all seem to have a certain quality that ties them together, a "signature" if you will...

SS and tubes would seem to have specific "colorations"...as can most every piece of gear...now I think I hear the wheels a-turnin'..."AHA! So things CAN sound different!" Yes, they can...the question is "better or simply different"...world of difference. The constant debate 'round these parts is: can anyone demonstrate, under controlled trials, the ability to arrive at objective results that are statistically relevant.

jimHJJ(...but then again, that's just my take on things...)

rb122
05-14-2004, 12:53 PM
I am the one who has the gear . You have never said what you have. I can only assume you do not have the cables or different players to choose from. I live in NC. E-mail me and we will make the necesary arangements.

And using your own gear is a critical part of the entire point. Your claim is that you hear these differences in your system. You never claimed to be able to do so with someone else's.

I'd have Mr Nousaine or whomever buy their own ticket. After all, they could be witnessing "science in the making" and that would certainly be worth the price of an airline ticket! You've agreed to provide the proof they demanded and they want you to pay all their expenses, too??!!?! That doesn't seem proper to me. But, and I may be wrong here of course, I lean towards thinking you're setting yourself up for failure, Mr Turbo! Good luck.

996turbo
05-15-2004, 04:30 PM
If it is failure I will accept it. I am interested to see if the others are willing to put their beliefs up to personal scrutiny.

I have had many friends components in my system and could tell the differences immedietly.

As far as if something is different or better. We do not know with any scientific measurements we can only say to ourselves that this or that is better. We may know in the future when the test equipment comes available but until then we have to believe there are no differences or believe that there are and await the data.

Chris
05-17-2004, 04:28 PM
I'm sorry 996turbo, I understand you're trying to make a point with this, but I have to lock this thread simply because of the title. We've been working on changing the hostile attitude around here the past few months, and thread titles like this simply won't do anymore. I'll ask that you try and make the same point without calling people idiots. If we allowed this to remain open, it would send a message to others that we are not serious about the "no-flaming" policy we're trying to enforce.