Pioneer TT Question

[blackraven]

I have a chance to buy a vintage Pioneer PL-55x TT for about $150. It is in perfect working condition and and excellent shape. I am not sure that I want to get back into Vinyl so I was thinking about buying this TT and see how things go, with the plan to eventually give it to my son if I decide to go all out and spend $3500 on a TT, cartridge and phono preamp.

Is $150 too much for this TT. It was a mid priced model from the 1970's.

[Mr Peabody]

I personally think it's too much. You'll find a hard core following for Japanese direct drive tables who claim they are as good as anything you can buy today but that is not my experience. My Rega P2 bested my Pioneer PL-51 by quite a bit. Granted the Rega did have a more expensive Rega cart but I don't think that accounted for such a dramtic upgrade in sound. Also, I feel based on the level of gear you have vinyl on such a table may come up short. Is there any place that would allow an audition of at least something in the $1500.00 range like entry Clearaudio, the Marantz Reference, even a Rega P2 or 3. If not, I still think you can buy a used vintage table cheaper.

I had a list of those recommended DD tables but must have deleted it. There's a Kenwood model that sells used for about $4k, not sure what it was new but it wasn't close to that.

[blackraven]

Mr. P, I have heard many a high end TT here in the TC's. The Clear Audio Concept is high on my list along with the Music Hall 7.1se. My issue is cash flow and all the unexpected expenses that I have had this year (besides the $3K I spent on the BAT preamp and the $2800 on the Pass amp). Before dropping $3K-4K on a TT, Cartridge and Preamp I want to upgrade my DAC to a Wyred 4 Sound DSD DAC or the Bel Canto 3.5. My digital collection is much bigger than my old vinly collection from the 70's and 80's. And with the recent sudden change in the sound of my system (probably from the 8 tubes in the BAT finally breaking in) to a warmer and slightly darker sound, my CD's are sounding fantastic.

All I want is a basic TT to play some old vinyl that I have. I all ready have a Bellari VP-129 phono preamp that a friend gave me. I plan on upgrading the tube, some caps and op amps in it along with a better power supply.

A few months ago I missed out on a used Rega P3 with a nice cartridge for $400.

[blackraven]

I have another option for a used vintage TT. A guy here in town has a Thorens TD-145 TT in excellent condition, tuned up and lubed with modern phono interconnects. It comes with a new Ortofon Red Cartridge. He is selling it for $300 with a 90 day warranty and free lifetime labor. ($225 without the Cartridge) The guy is also willing to let me take it home for a few weeks to see if I like it.

I am going to take a look at both the Thorens and Pioneer. I am assuming that the Thorens is the better of the 2 TT's.

What do you guys think?

[blackraven]

sorry, duplicate post

[hifitommy]

i think the pioneer is priced fairly. it would be a good starter and gateway to further exploration which is what this whole hobby is about. hopefully it comes with a cartridge so you can get a quick start.

being in the twin city area, i am sure there are plenty of used record stores and plenty of $1 choices that feed the budget minded enthusiasts needs.

if i get a dollar record that is great music but is in grim shape, it gives me a reason to seek out a better copy for perhaps more money. that happened to me with the direct to disc recording of "For Duke" by bill berry. i got the first one for ten bucks and it was noisy BUT it was so good musically that i kept looking. the usual price for a good one on the 'net was about $90. i found one in vg condition for $40 at a local store.

go for it.

[blackraven]

Thanks Tommy! I took home the Thorens on a trial basis. They guy told me to live with it for 2 weeks. He did not ask for any money. It is in excellent condition and sounds great with the cheap Ortofon Red cartridge. My only issue with it is the spring suspension. The platter and the tone arm are coupled to a spring suspension and it is not very forgiving of my wood floors. Just walking by makes it bounce, so I may have to go with the Pioneer which has a less sensitive suspension system. The Pioneer looks high tech compared to the Thorens and seems very well built. The Pioneer is heavy and sits in a metal chassis.

Tommy, there are several stores here in the Twin Cities that sell vinyl and one store sells only vinyl. There is a huge market here for TT's and vinyl. The 2 needle doctor stores here sell a lot of TT's.

[emaidel]

I'm a bit late checking in on this thread, but my experience with the Pioneer PL-55X was so awful, I wouldn't recommend it to anyone. The problem - that Pioneer actually said "was part of the design" - is that the cueing is probably the worst-ever in any turntable ever made. It was impossible to lift the arm with the cueing lever without the tonearm dragging across a few record grooves, and then when lowering the arm, it always fell back at a place other than where it had been lifted. So, essentially, the cueing lever was totally useless.

I wound up replacing the PL-55X with a cheaper model from Technics that wiped the floor with the Pioneer. Aside from the Garrard Zero 100 sitting at the top of the "worst-ever" turntables, the Pioneer PL-55X has a spot near the top too, even for $150.

[blackraven]

Thanks for the info Emaidel. I did not notice the cueing problem when I saw the PIoneer and gave it a listen. But I will take another look at it. The cueing mech had some mechanical noise though.

I am still leaning on keeping the Thorens and living with the suspension.

I am truly amazed at how good things sound with the cheap cartridge and Bellari VP-129 preamp. I know there are mixed reviews on the Bellari but I have not heard any of the things that some people dislike about it. I find it had very good dynamics and musicality. Cymbals sound real, bass is tight and strong and it has good air. I am going to try a Mullard tube and upgrade the power supply.

[blackraven]

Thanks for the info Emaidel. I did not notice the cueing problem when I saw the PIoneer and gave it a listen. But I will take another look at it. The cueing mech had some mechanical noise though.

I am still leaning on keeping the Thorens and living with the suspension.

I am truly amazed at how good things sound with the cheap cartridge and Bellari VP-129 preamp. I know there are mixed reviews on the Bellari but I have not heard any of the things that some people dislike about it. I find it had very good dynamics and musicality. Cymbals sound real, bass is tight and strong and it has good air. I am going to try a Mullard tube and upgrade the power supply.

[02audionoob]

I used to have a Bellari. I thought it responded fairly well to an upgrade of power supply and tube. I went with a Sovtek 12AX7LPS. I sold one to upgrade, then later bought another for a 2nd system. I sold that one too, and replaced it with a Musical Fidelity V-LPS. The V-LPS is another of the low-priced models that are actually decent.

I've been through a few of the 1970s Japanese turntables over the years, too. There are some good Pioneer models floating around, although I haven't been a fan of any I've heard firsthand. I do like the Thorens models, especially the ones with tonearm upgrades. My floors are bouncy, too, but my suspended Dual fares well. I walk softly all over the house, so it's just habit for me to also walk softly around the turntable.

I suppose this website must be doing the same thing to blackraven as it is to me. It looks like it has failed to accept reply, but a refresh showed me that it did upload.

[blackraven]

I am pretty sure that I am going to buy the Thorens. It sounds great for the few days that I have had it. I am going to go with a Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge for its warmer, detailed sound and forgiving nature to LP surface noise and clicks and pops. It has a boron cantilever that is usually found on more expensive cartridges. The stylus is elliptical. It should be a good match for the TT. It has similar tone to a Grado Reference Platinum wood that was my second choice. The MP-200 is supposed to be more detailed and free of the the potential bounce and hum of the Grado. The TT currently has an Ortofon 2M Red cart. which is very musical and dynamic with deep bass and a wide sound stage. It can be a little bright sounding at times and the mid range is not as deep as I would like but on reference material it sounds awesome but it is not very forgiving as opposed to the Nagaoka or Grado.

If I take off with analog I will eventually get a Pro-Ject Tube Box DS Pro-Ject Tube Box DS (http://www.needledoctor.com/Pro-Ject-Tube-Box-DS?sc=2&category=35467) or a used Pro-ject Tube Box IIse. Although, I have not ruled out a SS preamp. It just depends upon how the system sounds with the new cartridge. In a few weeks I will replace the op amps in the Bellari to 02134's and upgrade the tube and wall wart. The 02134's are a cheap upgrade at $4 a piece x4.

What do you analog guys think about a cork mat for the platter? Currently the Thorens comes with a stock rubber mat. I am also going to add some insulation to the wood box that the plinth sits in and get rid of the fiber board bottom and replace it with a piece of MDF. Vibrapods or sorbothane feet are on the list too.

[02audionoob]

As you move down in mass and also down in compliance in changing to the Nagaoka from the Ortofon, you're moving the resonant frequency up. That might have the benefit of getting farther away from the frequency at which the floor vibrates under footfalls. Perhaps something to look into.

[frenchmon]

Raven...there is no way I'd pay that for a used Thorens when you can get the new Music Hall USB-1 Turntable for $249 at Needle Doctor and if you don't like it, or you decide vinyls not for you, you can still give it to your son who may want to make CD's or you can send it back for a refund.

I was at my dealers house one day and he said he decided to bring it in because others where saying it was a very good table for the price. Well I asked him to fire it up. We had a shoot out with a SOTA Moon beam table and the Music Hall bested it pretty good. And its not like we where running it through some shabby gear,,,,we where using the top of the line Bel Canto gear. If it was me in you shoe, I'd spend the $249. on the Music Hall. It comes with a Audio Technica AT3600L Cart...and a built in phono or you can use your own phono amp. Its a no brainier.

[frenchmon]

Personally, I've not heard the Phono Box, but word is its to warm and colored over. Pewrsonally for that money, I'd look to the Vincent - PHO-700 - Phono MM/MC - w/Outboard Power Supply for the same money, if you want tubes...or to the Lehmann Black Cube Original Phono Preamp, Musical Surroundings Phonomena 2 Phono Preamp.

[JoeE SP9]

If you have a problem with a suspended wood floor and a TT, a wall mounted shelf for the TT may be in order. It doesn't have to be elaborate. Wall mounting is usually sufficient.

[JoeE SP9]

Double post, deleted.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, every thing I have read about the Thorens TD-145 says it was and still is a very good TT. They guys at the Needle Doctor here in town think it is a still a good table. There are guys that have posted about getting rid of their more expensive newer TT's in favor of the Thorens. I think that I will keep it without the cartridge for $225 and buy the Nagaoka MP-200 at $345 or $280 if I want to buy it from Japan. I can always flip the Thorens for about $350-400 with out the cartridge.

The Thorens is in great condition and I like the auto stop and lift off feature which is optically done. The anti skate mechanism is magnetic. The speed is dead on.

All this thing needs is a cork mat and better insulation in the wood cabinet and an MDF bottom plate instead of the cheap fiber board.

I may regret it in the long run but I think I will keep it. The Nagaoka cartridge that I picked out is a good match and should have a resonant frequency of 9.5 which is in the ideal range of 8-12hz. The Nagaoka has a boron cantilever which is pretty stiff and the Thorens tone arm has an effective mass is 16.5gms. The way I look at it is that the Thorens is built like a tank and the motor is still going strong after 30 years driving a heavy metal platter.

As far as phono preamps go, I am wide open to suggestions. A new phono preamp will be on the back burner for awhile. I will tinker around with the Bellari for awhile.

I am still not completely sold on vinyl as I hate having to get up and flip the LP. I should really be saving my cash for a new DAC like the Bel Canto 3.5 or Wyred 4 sound DSDse which is awesome. After going over to a friends house and hearing his system with the Wyred 4 sound and his computer using JRiver software doing DSD and upconverting, I am convinced that this is the future.

[eshall]

nice post

[blackraven]

I just ordered my Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge from Japan on ebay. I saved about $100. I should have it in 7-10 days.

[blackraven]

I just ordered my Nagaoka MP-200 cartridge from Japan on ebay. I saved about $100. I should have it in 7-10 days.