In The Heat of The Night

[Smokey]

Looking at this 1967 film with today's prespective which deal with a black detective from north helping out with a southern police chief to solve a crime, it remind us that we have come a long way in dealing with racial stereo types.

Movie when was releaseed in '67 caused a sensation as USA was in grip of civil right movement. It won five academy awards including the 1967 award for Best Picture.Although it might be slightly dated today, but there is no denying its powerfull message about racial equality, or lack there of.

Although Sidney Poitier put in a fine performance, this movie belong to his co-star Rod Steiger as town police chief. He have to walk a fine line between his duty to solve a crime and a town that hates black poeple.

One problem I had with this movie was it look at racial issue in black and white with northerners being good and southerner being racey and prejudice. Just for the record, there are good hearted poeple in south, and certainly there are racist poeple in north.

Four out of five star :)

http://www.blogcdn.com/blog.moviefone.com/media/2013/05/r-in-the-heat-of-the-night-movie-trivia-large570.jpg

[Feanor]

Looking at this 1967 film with today's prespective which deal with a black detective from north helping out with a southern police chief to solve a crime, it remind us that we have come a long way in dealing with racial stereo types.

Movie when was releaseed in '67 caused a sensation as USA was in grip of civil right movement. It won five academy awards including the 1967 award for Best Picture.Although it might be slightly dated today, but there is no denying its powerfull message about racial equality, or lack there of.

Although Sidney Poitier put in a fine performance, this movie belong to his co-star Rod Steiger as town police chief. He have to walk a fine line between his duty to solve a crime and a town that hates black poeple.

One problem I had with this movie was it look at racial issue in black and white with northerners being good and southerner being racey and prejudice. Just for the record, there are good hearted poeple in south, and certainly there are racist poeple in north.

Four out of five star :)

That is pretty much my assessment too, though I haven't see the flick in many years.

I understand your "problem" but then it occurs to me that some things haven't changed all that much.

[Smokey]

I understand your "problem" but then it occurs to me that some things haven't changed all that much.Living in the south I can tell you there have been alot of progress in racial issues, but as you noted we still have a way to go before being transparent racially. Void of racial prejudice, that is something that will never happen :)

[Feanor]

Living in the south I can tell you there have been alot of progress in racial issues, but as you noted we still have a way to go before being transparent racially. Void of racial prejudice, that is something that will never happen :)
Human beings have an instinctive "in-group" / "out-group" inclination that will never vanish. What comprises the "in-group" might change over longish periods of time.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Living in the south I can tell you there have been alot of progress in racial issues, but as you noted we still have a way to go before being transparent racially. Void of racial prejudice, that is something that will never happen :)

Smoke, has the progress been in a better ability to hide racism, or that people's minds have actually changed on the issue. As we have seen over the last 6 years, many old school Americans(who were once firmly in charge of how things went) have hidden their racism, but once the opportunity to show it(without repercussions or regrets i.e the Tea Party) came, they were embolden to regurgitate old outdated racial beliefs and prejudices.

Two weeks ago I went to Texas for Drum corps southwest Championships to support my nephew who was marching with the Cavaliers(just like his uncle did). It was pretty damn clear that a certain segment of Texans did not appreciate having to wait or serve a person of color. I felt that not much had changed from when I marched in the Southwest Championships some 25 years ago.

I guess for me there are no levels of prejudice. Either you are, or you are not, on this issue, there is no grey area for me. If things have improved in the South, that improvement is lost on me.

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think you can gauge anything by the behavior or attitude of Texans. The state seems to march to an entirely different drummer. Not to stereotype an entire population, just saying.

It hasn't been that long ago a black man was dragged to death behind a truck in Texas by some white guys. On the other hand I lived in Atlanta for 2 years, well, lived in Lithonia but worked in downtown Atlanta, I was by far the minority were I lived and it was a non-issue, I rode public transportation, my experience would seem to support what Smokey was saying, in those two years race wasn't an issue. Diversity seemed to be working both at work and in the neighborhood I was in. Now moving to St. Louis after that was like going back in time, the city is pretty much segregated regionally by race, you can feel that segregation, it's hard to describe but it's like people of opposite race are expecting me to be prejudice so they are cold are withdrawn. I've lived here quite a while now and it seems things may be getting some better or maybe it's just possible those around me know me and understand race is not an issue where I'm concerned.

I do agree unfortunately that prejudice will never go away, certain people will always find a reason to hate, and hate will be learned by the next generation from parents or others. It won't stop until we teach the children not to judge on appearance. If you ever notice elementary school children they play with each other no matter what, it's not until they get older and pick up the prejudices from others. Those who are evolved enough to think for themselves will still ignore differences, let's hope for more of them as time goes on.

[Jack in Wilmington]

I just spent two weeks in Texas and the people couldn't be more friendly. I saw no signs of prejudice or racism and of course two weeks isn't a lot of time to form a real opinion on the people but it was a very positive experience for us.

[recoveryone]

There are degreeing levels of prejudce, at one point you just hate another base soley on color, culture and so on and are ready to do harm to that person for no other reason than that they exsist. Other levels are surrounded and cloaked in equality or inequality, where people will do whatever to keep others from achiving (education, housing, empolyment).

Also your own experience plays a major role in how you view what is prejudce, Our own education system has done more damage in this area than many attitudes of closed minded people. When you pick up a grade school through high school history book and look to see what is said about blacks, you get about 1-2 pages of slavery and civil rights. No other information about the contributions of a whole race of people. So what value is placed on a whole race from our own history book, only good for as slaves and had to beg for equal rights that were given to all of those that pass through the ports of Eills Island. As a nation we have embraced people who at one point were our enemy, on the other hand we have created laws to keep (over the years) blacks from gaining equality in a nation they never fought against, but has fought to defend it since its inception.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I just spent two weeks in Texas and the people couldn't be more friendly. I saw no signs of prejudice or racism and of course two weeks isn't a lot of time to form a real opinion on the people but it was a very positive experience for us.

Jack, these days racism is so subtle and cloaked, that it is easy not to notice it if you have not experienced it yourself. I will give you an example.

While in San Antonio we(Some Cavalier Alumni that marched with me back in the day) went to the same restaurant a couple of time - once for breakfast and the other time for dinner. Four white guys, and two Latino's sat down. When they brought out the silverware and napkins, the waitress(who was white woman) put the silverware out for the white men first even though the two latino's were much closer to her. The menu's were passed out to the white males first, and then the latino's. She took the white men's order first(keep in mind, myself and Manuel were closer to her than the other members of the party), and when she came with the bill, she put it in front of the white males(as if she knew we were not paying). This was not lost on anyone in our breakfast and dinner party mind you. She made eye contact with each of the white men, but she would not look at either myself or Miguel at all. When I handed her my credit card, she looked totally shocked, hesitated, and took care of the bill. In spite of the fact I gave her a 25% tip, she personally thanked each of the white men(and gave them eye contact as well), but didn't even look at Miguel or myself.

When we got to the parking lot, my buddy Jeff(who is white) looked at me and said "What just happened in there?". I was surprised, because I didn't think he(or the other white guys Ben and Sam) even noticed, but Miguel and I certainly did. It was that obvious to us, and apparently to the others in our party. I said "welcome to the new racism in middle America". It is no longer overt, but more covert than in the past.

Considering it was in Texas 25 years ago that several Cavaliers of color(both Black and Latino) were refused service at a restaurant, and the entire corp walked out without eating there, Jeff, Ben, and Sam wanted to walk back in there in confront the waitress much like the entire corps did years ago. Forget it, not worth my time.

Somethings you can see easily, and some others are too subtle for some to notice. Rather than to not serve me(too obvious), I was not acknowledged or even thanked(more subtle) for my business.

[Feanor]

Jack, these days racism is so subtle and cloaked, that it is easy not to notice it if you have not experienced it yourself. I will give you an example.

While in San Antonio we(Some Cavalier Alumni that marched with me back in the day) went to the same restaurant a couple of time - once for breakfast and the other time for dinner. Four white guys, and two Latino's sat down. When they brought out the silverware and napkins, the waitress(who was white woman) put the silverware out for the white men first even though the two latino's were much closer to her. The menu's were passed out to the white males first, and then the latino's. She took the white men's order first(keep in mind, myself and Manuel were closer to her than the other members of the party), and when she came with the bill, she put it in front of the white males(as if she knew we were not paying). This was not lost on anyone in our breakfast and dinner party mind you. She made eye contact with each of the white men, but she would not look at either myself or Miguel at all. When I handed her my credit card, she looked totally shocked, hesitated, and took care of the bill. In spite of the fact I gave her a 25% tip, she personally thanked each of the white men(and gave them eye contact as well), but didn't even look at Miguel or myself.

When we got to the parking lot, my buddy Jeff(who is white) looked at me and said "What just happened in there?". I was surprised, because I didn't think he(or the other white guys Ben and Sam) even noticed, but Miguel and I certainly did. It was that obvious to us, and apparently to the others in our party. I said "welcome to the new racism in middle America". It is no longer overt, but more covert than in the past.

Considering it was in Texas 25 years ago that several Cavaliers of color(both Black and Latino) were refused service at a restaurant, and the entire corp walked out without eating there, Jeff, Ben, and Sam wanted to walk back in there in confront the waitress much like the entire corps did years ago. Forget it, not worth my time.

Somethings you can see easily, and some others are too subtle for some to notice. Rather than to not serve me(too obvious), I was not acknowledged or even thanked(more subtle) for my business.
Of course there is residual racism in America and most other places. I have certainly witnessed it myself.

But I wonder: are white people the only racists? Or are, say, Latinos occasionally racist? Can you tell us a story about an instance of Latino racism?

[JohnMichael]

I think once you have truly experienced prejudice and racism and realized how wrong it is you are less likely to practice it. Having experienced it you can see the subtle aspects of racism and prejudice quicker than those who have not had to live with it.

[Feanor]

I think once you have truly experienced prejudice and racism and realized how wrong it is you are less likely to practice it. Having experienced it you can see the subtle aspects of racism and prejudice quicker than those who have not had to live with it.
So is that like child abuse? The more you've experienced it the less likely you are to practice it?

On the other hand, I don't doubt that the more you've experienced it, the more sensitized you become.

I recently watched Spike Lee's Malcolm X, a pretty good movie: 3.5/5* In it we see Elijah Muhammad and his followers, including a younger Malcolm X. saying things about whites that were every bit as untrue, irrational, and hateful as anything whites might have though of blacks. Malcolm X himself reformed to his credit, ironically some might say, after going to Mecca and experiencing a truer variety of Islam than what he got from Elijah Muhammad. But Louis Farrakhan and his crew are scarcely improved.

White racism no doubt caused black racism, but the bad example of former certainly didn't prevent the latter.

[Mr Peabody]

I haven't seen Malcom X in years but I remember really liking it. Also, brought to my attention what a stellar actor Denzel is. Good example though, all Malcolm knew was from his early life then what was taught in prison, but as you mentioned when he went to Mecca and saw whites and people of all color worshipping and getting along it was enlightening for him. Some people aren't that intelligent. For those who are communications and understanding go a long way to reduce prejudice. Different races have culture but as individuals each has their own heart and mind so stereotypes should not apply.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Of course there is residual racism in America and most other places. I have certainly witnessed it myself.

But I wonder: are white people the only racists? Or are, say, Latinos occasionally racist? Can you tell us a story about an instance of Latino racism?

Bill,
White people are not the only racists, anyone can be a racist. However, white people(generalization) started all of this, and Asians, Blacks, and Latino have been profoundly hurt by it. I don't blame them for wanting some way to retaliate back, but here we go around in circles - and it is just not worth it. My retaliation is much better. Don't hate, be great. Success is the best weapon against those that mean you ill will, and that is the path I chose. My grandmother(who was a white British woman) instilled in me enough self esteem, enough push, and more than enough support that racism didn't bother me as much as it would other minorities. I had a VERY hard time in school(I went to a mostly white private catholic boarding school) dealing with racism. I had my locker blown up by a cherry bomb(with all my books in it), and at times I had to kick some serious butt to get the aggressors off my back. But the ultimate revenge came at graduation when my twin brother and I ended up co-valedictorians, and secured nearly 3/4 of all the scholarship and grant money allocated to our school. We were asked by the school administration not to show up to the graduation ceremony for our safety, but there was no way I was going to miss it.

IMO, it is one thing to be a racist because of the power, and the perception that you think you are better. It is another to be racist as a defense mechanism, and as a result of pain you have experienced from it. I know many Black folks that don't like whites(and visa versa), and most of them originated from the south. While I am sure there are racist Latino's, I have never in all of my life actually heard a Latino making racist statements...EVER. I know plenty of Asians who have complained about racism, but they seem to align themselves with the very folks they complain about. In other words, they take on the same racists tendencies towards Blacks and Latino's as racist white people do. Now that does not make much sense to me.

Being the balanced guy I am, there have been quite a few situations where whites have actually come to my defense when I was confronted by racists. My Cavalier brothers(mostly all white guys) were so anti racism that when we travelled in the south, if any of the minorities in the corps were poorly treated, they would all walk out of that business without purchasing anything. Imagine having the chance to serve 128 young men in a restaurant(cha ching!), and because of the behavior of one waiter or waitress, you lose all of that money - and you are in a small town that does not attract that kind of business often.

In saying all this, I hate racism. If you say you hate whites, then you hate my Grandmother. If you say you hate blacks, then you hate my Godmother who raised me. If say you hate Latino's, then you hate my mother. Too much hate in all that for me. I grew up in a racially integrated family. While mostly latino, whites were very well represented and so were blacks. I didn't know anything about racism until I started school.

To me, it is all just a profound waste of energy.

[dean_martin]

I agree with Sir T, hit'em in the wallet where it hurts. In my small town, there's a clique of families that have been around for years and years which gives them a certain feeling of entitlement. The first difficult case I worked on as a law clerk while still in law school involved members of these families conspiring to apply the purchase price of a piece of property to erase loans of one these members at a local bank rather than applying it to the mortgage that member had on the property she sold. This meant that although the purchaser paid the full price in cash, the seller's mortgage was not released. After the sale, the bank proceeded with foreclosure on the property. The purchaser was a black man. The conspiracy/fraud involved the seller, a local lawyer and several bank board members all of whom were members of these "entitled" white families. They wound up paying more than 5x the value of the property and my man got to keep his property. Just think of the mindset it takes to do something like that. This Black man was totally insignificant to them. They never dreamt he'd hire a lawyer and fight back. Since then, we have tried to expose racism in the provisions of utilities and safety measures to predominantly black neighborhoods and in hiring and firing practices of large employers when the oppurtunities have arisen.

Of course racism is often more subtle and most of the time it's not actionable. I'm almost ready for the Millennials to take over. That generation, at least the ones that don't have their crap spread all over social media, seems to have an inherent fairness about them - a way of looking at the world and its people that's new and fresh. They're not encumbered with as much social baggage. For example, some of my old relatives used racial slurs in my presence when I was a kid. Thankfully, they died (as old people do) and I didn't have to make a choice as to whether to take my own kids around them for "family visits". I think racism is learned and can be overcome through education and broadened experiences. If you don't "teach" it to your kids, you can actually watch inherent fairness develop. In other words, fairness and respect for all earthbound humans is the "default" human tendency while racism and certain prejudices are taught or learned and take individual development (and in some instances, the development of a whole people) on an unnatural course. What movie were we talking about?

[Hyfi]

Not interested in getting involved with the current debate, but cannot figure out why 2 or 3 OTA movie channels have been running this movie almost every day or night for the last several months.

[recoveryone]

Not interested in getting involved with the current debate, but cannot figure out why 2 or 3 OTA movie channels have been running this movie almost every day or night for the last several months.

Its a classic, based on the content and subject matter :)

[Hyfi]

Its a classic, based on the content and subject matter :)

Lots of other classics that don't get rerun every night of the week, but OK.

[Feanor]

I appreciate your comments. Your own background gives you an unusual (though not unique) perspective. Racism is a scourge of humanity, (along with organized religion, though you might not agree with the latter).


Bill,
White people are not the only racists, anyone can be a racist. However, white people(generalization) started all of this, and Asians, Blacks, and Latino have been profoundly hurt by it ...

This fair to say. It began with the rapid ascendancy of the West in the modern era dating from the mid-15th century. (Prior to then and for a while afterwards there was no reason to bet on the West over China or even the Ottoman Empire for world dominance.) Driven by the aggressively competitive nature of Western culture and subsequently by its technological and military precocity, the Western dominated the whole world by the mid-19th century. The dominance was accompanied by an arrogant sense of superiority and entitlement that bread and fostered racism.

This is not say the Western attitude was entirely dissimilar to that of, e.g., the Chinese who were distainful of "barbarians", (anybody else), until the early 19th century.



IMO, it is one thing to be a racist because of the power, and the perception that you think you are better. It is another to be racist as a defense mechanism, and as a result of pain you have experienced from it.
...


This is fair to say to, but here some ironies creep into the picture.

The racism of the south has two sources I would suggest.

First, the racism of the slave owners who need to find away to justify their evil, un-Christian practice by casting the blacks as inferior. Some even convincing themselves that what they did was best for "the Negro".

Secondly -- and relating to the idea of defensive mechanism -- the racism of the poor whites who need to cast blacks as inferior in order to boost their own low sense of self-worth. Most southern white racism you observe to day is of this source.

Racism exists in the USA today, (and other places), but overt racism, or let's say, functional racism is declining while poverty and wealth inequality are emerging is bigger issue. Of course black and latinos are more frequently the victims of poverty, but even for them, their poverty is nowadays the greater issue the racism per se, IMO.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I appreciate your comments. Your own background gives you an unusual (though not unique) perspective. Racism is a scourge of humanity, (along with organized religion, though you might not agree with the latter).



This fair to say. It began with the rapid ascendancy of the West in the modern era dating from the mid-15th century. (Prior to then and for a while afterwards there was no reason to bet on the West over China or even the Ottoman Empire for world dominance.) Driven by the aggressively competitive nature of Western culture and subsequently by its technological and military precocity, the Western dominated the whole world by the mid-19th century. The dominance was accompanied by an arrogant sense of superiority and entitlement that bread and fostered racism.

This is not say the Western attitude was entirely dissimilar to that of, e.g., the Chinese who were distainful of "barbarians", (anybody else), until the early 19th century.



This is fair to say to, but here some ironies creep into the picture.

The racism of the south has two sources I would suggest.

First, the racism of the slave owners who need to find away to justify their evil, un-Christian practice by casting the blacks as inferior. Some even convincing themselves that what they did was best for "the Negro".

Secondly -- and relating to the idea of defensive mechanism -- the racism of the poor whites who need to cast blacks as inferior in order to boost their own low sense of self-worth. Most southern white racism you observe to day is of this source.

Racism exists in the USA today, (and other places), but overt racism, or let's say, functional racism is declining while poverty and wealth inequality are emerging is bigger issue. Of course black and latinos are more frequently the victims of poverty, but even for them, their poverty is nowadays the greater issue the racism per se, IMO.

Good gosh, I love this response. Thank you for you comment Bill!!!

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Not interested in getting involved with the current debate, but cannot figure out why 2 or 3 OTA movie channels have been running this movie almost every day or night for the last several months.

Could somebody be telling you something? Just sayin.....

[Smokey]

I guess for me there are no levels of prejudice. Either you are, or you are not, on this issue, there is no grey area for me.

But most poeple are in grey area as far as racial prejudice are concern. I agree with Recoveryone that there are degreeing levels of prejudice as some folks are more tolerant and acceptance than others, and some that are more vocal about it.

My experience have been that if a person is racist, the racism apply to all poeple of color that are not their kind including latinos, middle easterns or orientals. Or differnet religion for that matter.


If things have improved in the South, that improvement is lost on me.

Well, we have a black president, so I would say that there have been some improvements on that front :)

The problem with racials issues in the south is that there are more poverty, which breed more violence and nagative image of racial genders.I agree with you that education and economic power for african-americans is one way to shed negative sterero typing. For example, our regional manager for our company is black person and we look at him as a boss, not a black person.

But on the other side of coin, we see poverty causes poeple to rob, shoot and do violence. That image will deepen our negative stereo typing.

[Feanor]

But most poeple are in grey area as far as racial prejudice are concern. I agree with Recoveryone that there are degreeing levels of prejudice as some folks are more tolerant and acceptance than others, and some that are more vocal about it.

My experience have been that if a person is racist, the racism apply to all poeple of color that are not their kind including latinos, middle easterns or orientals. Or differnet religion for that matter.
Smokey, on the first point I completely agree. In practical terms there are degrees of racism exist among people -- most people in fact. A down-to-earth example would be the person who is genuinely OK with other races in the work place or as clients or tenants, but is unhappy with his daughter marrying one. This is not to say that racism is acceptable in any degree, but degrees do exist and some degrees are worse than others. The right way to look at is that any lessening of racism is a good thing and might lead to further lesseing.

On you second point, I basically agree but I believe that people very often habor different degrees of racism, (see above), towards different races.

Again no degree of racism is ultimately acceptable but degrees do exist.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

But most poeple are in grey area as far as racial prejudice are concern. I agree with Recoveryone that there are degreeing levels of prejudice as some folks are more tolerant and acceptance than others, and some that are more vocal about it.

My question to this response is why is racial tolerance better than racial neutrality(those that do not care an ounce about skin color). Anyone that is tolerant of something is quite frankly being superior in attitude(I tolerate this because I can, or it is beneath me).


My experience have been that if a person is racist, the racism apply to all poeple of color that are not their kind including latinos, middle easterns or orientals. Or differnet religion for that matter.

I agree with this.




Well, we have a black president, so I would say that there have been some improvements on that front :)

Upon careful scrutiny, the south did not contribute to this. The south voted overwhelmingly for Romney(Republican), even if they had problems with his religion. IMO partisan ignorance, and racial bias played a big factor in this.


The problem with racials issues in the south is that there are more poverty, which breed more violence and nagative image of racial genders.I agree with you that education and economic power for african-americans is one way to shed negative sterero typing. For example, our regional manager for our company is black person and we look at him as a boss, not a black person.

Your boss probably carries himself as a race neutral boss, which makes it easier for you to look at him much differently than a race bias boss.


But on the other side of coin, we see poverty causes poeple to rob, shoot and do violence. That image will deepen our negative stereo typing.

Poverty in and of itself causes race neutrality. If a white person is on welfare sitting next to a black person on welfare(food stamps or medi-whatever your state is) then it is very difficult to look at yourself as superior. Everyone is in the same pot, same place experiencing the same spirit degrading circumstances.

Let's face it. Racism is most prominent in the south. The south also is the poorest part of America. The irony is poor black folks and poor white folks are in the same pool. But poor white folks in the south vote extensively for Republicans, who would like to keep them poor, ignorant, and out of the mainstream. Just take an honest look at southern governors policies, and you will clearly see that poor white people are dismissed entirely in favor of rich folks, and corporations(fair wage laws that are not fair at all). The midwest does not fair better in this area.

Let's take a look at Kansas. Their Republican governor cuts taxes for the wealthy and big businesses. The state coffers took such a big hit, that schools and state infrastructure took huge cuts. Who does this hurt the most? The poor who rely on education to get them out of poverty, and the poor who have to pay more in taxes because of an unbalanced policy. Roads don't get built or repaved, schools are underfunded, and the middle class and poor suffer. In spite of this, Kansas is controlled by republicans, and keeps sending republicans to the governorship. Kansas is apparently not voting in their self interests, or they would they would not send those that do not support their beliefs or interests to the state house.

I chose Kansas becuase i just watch a documentary called "What is the matter with Kansas"(I think that was the title name) on Netflix. Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kansas, Arizona all have this same problem, and nobody seems to get it in those states.

I want to be clear, these are generalizations, and don't represent everyone in each state.

As far as there being levels or gradients of bias, to somebody on the other side of that bias, those gradients or levels are quite frankly irrelevant. This is like saying there are degrees of hate. Hate is hate, and those levels and gradients of hate are lost on those behind the bullet of hate. You cannot make a hard pillow soft just because it looks fluffy.

[Feanor]

My question to this response is why is racial tolerance better than racial neutrality (those that do not care an ounce about skin color). Anyone that is tolerant of something is quite frankly being superior in attitude (I tolerate this because I can, or it is beneath me).

I don't think there is any question of tolerance being better than neutrality. But tolerance is a better than intolerance and tolerance can lead to neutrality. There is something of my personal journey in this.



Poverty in and of itself causes race neutrality. If a white person is on welfare sitting next to a black person on welfare(food stamps or medi-whatever your state is) then it is very difficult to look at yourself as superior. Everyone is in the same pot, same place experiencing the same spirit degrading circumstances.


History clearly shows that economic equivalence doesn't necessarily lead to racial tolerance much less neutrality. The US south is an excellent example of this.

As I explained, people like to feel better than other people and when there is no objective basis for this, they will look else where. In the case of the South, it was easy for red-necks to say, "I'm ignorant and dirt-poor but at least I'm better than those black slaves". It was an attitude well cultivated by the wealthy plantation owners.

I suspect the Civil War would never have happened if the non-slave owning farmers and tradesman who made up the large majority of the Confederate armyhad realized the the whole "Southern way of life" and "States rights" thing was bull****.



Let's face it. Racism is most prominent in the south. The south also is the poorest part of America. The irony is poor black folks and poor white folks are in the same pool. But poor white folks in the south vote extensively for Republicans, who would like to keep them poor, ignorant, and out of the mainstream. Just take an honest look at southern governors policies, and you will clearly see that poor white people are dismissed entirely in favor of rich folks, and corporations(fair wage laws that are not fair at all). The midwest does not fair better in this area.

Let's take a look at Kansas. Their Republican governor cuts taxes for the wealthy and big businesses. The state coffers took such a big hit, that schools and state infrastructure took huge cuts. Who does this hurt the most? The poor who rely on education to get them out of poverty, and the poor who have to pay more in taxes because of an unbalanced policy. Roads don't get built or repaved, schools are underfunded, and the middle class and poor suffer. In spite of this, Kansas is controlled by republicans, and keeps sending republicans to the governorship. Kansas is apparently not voting in their self interests, or they would they would not send those that do not support their beliefs or interests to the state house.

I chose Kansas becuase i just watch a documentary called "What is the matter with Kansas"(I think that was the title name) on Netflix. Texas, Alabama, Mississippi, Georgia, Tennessee, Kansas, Arizona all have this same problem, and nobody seems to get it in those states.


Déjà vu all over again. Racism, religious dogmatism, and ethnic identity are tools of oppression of everybody, not just the targets of these attitudes. Look at the Balkans in the post-Yugoslav era. The current situation has a lot of similarity with the pre-Civil War era in that the wealthy foster regressive attitudes to gain the support of the ordinary people.

People with insight realized that the agenda of the Republican Party favors the top 1% (or maybe more like the top 0.01%) ... BUT you don't win elections with 1% of the vote. The GOP has with huge success by verbally catering to, and stoking, the conservative biases of the gullible majority Americans in the South and Mid-west even though its policy a patently against the economic interests.

[JohnMichael]

So is that like child abuse? The more you've experienced it the less likely you are to practice it?

On the other hand, I don't doubt that the more you've experienced it, the more sensitized you become.

I recently watched Spike Lee's Malcolm X, a pretty good movie: 3.5/5* In it we see Elijah Muhammad and his followers, including a younger Malcolm X. saying things about whites that were every bit as untrue, irrational, and hateful as anything whites might have though of blacks. Malcolm X himself reformed to his credit, ironically some might say, after going to Mecca and experiencing a truer variety of Islam than what he got from Elijah Muhammad. But Louis Farrakhan and his crew are scarcely improved.

White racism no doubt caused black racism, but the bad example of former certainly didn't prevent the latter.


An interesting aspect of child abuse is that some become abusers and some become victims. To fully discuss child abuse and it's very long term side effects we would need an entire thread.

As far as the anger and hatred of whites I think people tend to hate their oppressors. When you are denied equal rights and forced to live in poverty due to prejudice regarding employment I can understand the anger. If one race oppresses another I do not think of the oppressed as prejudice but rightfully angry.

[Feanor]

As far as the anger and hatred of whites I think people tend to hate their oppressors. When you are denied equal rights and forced to live in poverty due to prejudice regarding employment I can understand the anger. If one race oppresses another I do not think of the oppressed as prejudice but rightfully angry.

Righteous anger is one thing, but to wish everyone of the race of your oppressors to be punished regardless of personal guilt, to slander them, to aggrandize your own race with stories that aren't true, that IS prejudice. No other word for it. One set of bigotry doesn't cancel the other set.

My point about Malcolm X was that Elijah Muhammed and his other followers (including the less mature Malcolm X) were preaching hateful and untrue anti-white bigotry. That might be understandable but it isn't justifiable, (if I may draw that distinction).

Sir T implied earlier that if your racism is in response to my racism directed at me, it isn't so bad; (apology if I misunderstood him). But that is wrong. Whereas it might be understandable, your racism in response to my racism won't reform my racism: it will only make it worse.

[Worf101]

I'm just catching up. I just drove 8 hours straight from P'burgh. My mind is way too fried to tackle this whole thread. Being older... and wiser (ah hopes), I've learned to pick my battles.... I will say that a month ago I was checking into a Marriott, I'm a rewards member, and they have a special desk and express check-in for us. I'm in the middle of checking in and this older white man just pushes in-front of me to discuss the charges on his bill.

The old me would've raised a ruckus... but the older me waited to see what the woman behind the counter did... the pulled him up short and he seemed surprised. She said he's have to wait till she was done with me. He then turned and glared at me... I replied...

"Don't blame me I'm obviously invisible to you."

He hurrumphed and stalked away... The lady started to apologize but I said it wasn't her fault... cause it wasn't. She was younger and wasn't used to that kind of old school privilege... But as mad/sad as I was I took heart in her reaction... and all the simply marvelous things that have changed/happened in this country in my lifetime. In the midst of terriblet times and horrid things... there are ALWAYS rays of hope and just plain good people.

Worf

[Feanor]

I'm just catching up. I just drove 8 hours straight from P'burgh. My mind is way too fried to tackle this whole thread. Being older... and wiser (ah hopes), I've learned to pick my battles.... I will say that a month ago I was checking into a Marriott, I'm a rewards member, and they have a special desk and express check-in for us. I'm in the middle of checking in and this older white man just pushes in-front of me to discuss the charges on his bill.

The old me would've raised a ruckus... but the older me waited to see what the woman behind the counter did... the pulled him up short and he seemed surprised. She said he's have to wait till she was done with me. He then turned and glared at me... I replied...

"Don't blame me I'm obviously invisible to you."

He hurrumphed and stalked away... The lady started to apologize but I said it wasn't her fault... cause it wasn't. She was younger and wasn't used to that kind of old school privilege... But as mad/sad as I was I took heart in her reaction... and all the simply marvelous things that have changed/happened in this country in my lifetime. In the midst of terriblet times and horrid things... there are ALWAYS rays of hope and just plain good people.

Worf

Sad, but trust me on this: plenty of those "older white men" are rude to white men too.

[Auricauricle]

And then there are those who are just plain dumb.

[Mr Peabody]

here's a relevant read: My son has been suspended five times. He’s 3. - The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/24/my-son-has-been-suspended-five-times-hes-3/?wpisrc=nl_mwk)

[recoveryone]

Interesting read Peabody, and adds soild info to what many parents/families of color have suspected all along. Many studies have shown the large gap in discipline among students, especially male blacks. Which has been directly connected to the large number of male blacks being incarcerate.

And this devisive attiude even carries over into the home, where a child is told they will never amount to anything because of what appears to be a lack of control at school. at one point of their lives (mostly middle school age) they began to choose the path that has been told to them over the years. Between 8-10th grade most will drop out of school or be so far behind that they would not have much of a chance to graduate. Or worst, once becoming aware of being placed in special needs/special education classes feel the personal embarrassment knowning that they are not really in need of that status.

[Mr Peabody]

None of us realized how timely the discussion that took place here would become.

[recoveryone]

I have only heard a few sound bites, but would like to get more of the details.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

If one really wants to understand why Black folks are so angry at white, look up "Black in America" on Netflix with Dr. Henry Louis Gates(a brilliant man I might add). There are six episodes that break slavery and racism down in a time based linear fashion that I have never experienced while I was in school(my school didn't talk about slavery much, probably because the Catholic Church turned a blind eye to it). I cried, got angry, felt hope and despair, but ultimately had my eyes opened wide.

Feanor, I know you don't agree with this, but that is probably because you have not had to deal with this personally. After watching this series, I just cannot agree with you on this point. Blacks have a right to be angry as hell at the way they have been treated in this country. Put of these shoes and hat if you can. Just imagine being sold(by your own people I might add, who thought is was just commerce and business as usual), brought to a foreign country, stripped of your culture, given a new name. You are enslaved on a plantation, have a family, then they are sold off splitting up the family. You are treated in a profoundly harsh way, beat up, your women raped, and when they have kids, they are sold away as well. Then you are freed, you go off to war because you are promised freedom, and when you come back from war, you don't get your freedom.

A decree is signed giving you your freedom, but since you have never been free, you don't quite know how to adjust. When you finally adjust to your freedom, you are told you cannot mingle with whites in any venue, including the one you work in. You cannot choose the job you want(there are many jobs you cannot even get), you cannot choose where you want to live, or don't have many choices at all. You are free(sort of), but still poor, still not equal, and still in bad economic condition. Hell, you can't even vote. Every time you figure out the system works, the powers that be change the rules so you end up in the same condition as you were before. You can never gain any traction economically, and when you do, the rules change again and you lose your traction once again. Each time you do well as a race, the rules change, and you lose everything over and over and over again - for nearly 500 years. You should be mad as hell about this, and anyone that says you should not, probably is the one making the rules. Then the civil right era comes and there is new hope, but that hope is dashed because some 50 years later, the majority of your race is still poor, still does not have equal right, and your life means so little to so many(the senseless killing and incarceration of young black males). If you are not mad about this, then you have no feelings or emotion at all.

When your racism is a cruel and heartless as racism has been to Latino's, Indians, and Blacks in this country, you shouldn't just be mad, you should be mad as hell. However, what you do with that anger is very important. Do you just fight and hate back? Nope. You learn the game, and you play it hard. A few minorities have learned this, and done well. Unfortunately so many have not, and have given up hope which in my opinion is understandable(they been here before and not gotten ahead), but tragic at the same time.

Racism used to be a state of mind, but no in the US it is institutionalize and embedded in the American culture. I have said this before, and I will say it again. Racism will not go away until the baby boomers die out, and there is so much racial intertwining that nobody will be able to tell what race another is(we are already headed in this direction).

Lastly, and oddly enough - I made a bet with a few of my friends. I challenged them to take a DNA test, so they know exactly what their racial make up is. My white friends didn't want to participate, but my Black, Latino, and South Asian friend jumped at the bet willingly. Peer pressure finally got my white friends in the game, so we are waiting to see the results. Since I have done this before, I pretty much know my outcome. However, when I did this before, some people were VERY surprised at what their DNA test results were - almost to the point of disbelief and agony.

Here is just a little read, and just a crack in the door on Minority anger with the powers that be.

Reconstruction Era - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era)

[Mr Peabody]

What happened in the past is a disgrace but should not be used as an excuse for any minority today. No one today is/was a slave. As one speaker from the NAACP was saying minorities need to take advantage of education, take pride in themselves, get involved, vote, etc.

Racial Profiling is real as in the recent example of Barney's who had to admit they were guilty of it, and, something to be upset about. Many here are upset by racial profiling of authorities who took the oath to protect and serve. This is also a disgrace, as well the link I posted above, and it shows society hasn't come as far as we thought. This recent killing here and the one just a week or so in NYC are prime example of authorities gone too far and brought things to the boiling point. Justice is supposed to be fair and balanced, now those in charge have to decide whether they'll step up to the plate and effect real change and hold violators of rights responsible. This type of distrust will be virtually impossible to erase.

I mentioned above when I moved here from Atlanta it was like going back in time regarding race, it was interesting to hear a guest on MSMBC mention that St. Louis is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Not sure how that bares out in Sir T's South as the villain theory. Although racism is every where.unfortunately, I just don't think we can stereotype one region of the country vs another.

[JohnMichael]

First off human trafficking is still happening today so slavery does exist. For years prejudice held many people back so they were not able to work to their abilities. To me that is a forced situation. Forcibly kept in poverty to me is a form of slavery. I heard a white male in my care mention when President Obama was elected that he thought they could only cut grass or haul trash. Look at the discrepancy in employment to know prejudice is still keeping minorities down.

I remember one day I was shocked while in my local audio shop. Three young white men were crowded back in the car audio displays. They went totally unobserved by the staff. Three young black men walked in and the salesmen stood up and watched them until I called them out for it. They did not realize their own bias.

I think some stereotypes are so deep seated and believed that people react to them. They may claim a lack of prejudice but their actions show otherwise. Keeping people in poverty to me is a form of slavery.

[JohnMichael]

Nina Simone: Strange Fruit - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1au72x_nina-simone-strange-fruit_music)

[Mr Peabody]

What you mentioned in the stereo store is what happened at Barney's, I'm assuming that is still considered racial profiling. Then there's the opposite like the incident Sir T described in the restaurant. You can only hope at some point society would progress.

[Feanor]

Feanor, I know you don't agree with this, but that is probably because you have not had to deal with this personally. After watching this series, I just cannot agree with you on this point. Blacks have a right to be angry as hell at the way they have been treated in this country. Put of these shoes and hat if you can. Just imagine being sold(by your own people I might add, who thought is was just commerce and business as usual), brought to a foreign country, stripped of your culture, given a new name. You are enslaved on a plantation, have a family, then they are sold off splitting up the family. You are treated in a profoundly harsh way, beat up, your women raped, and when they have kids, they are sold away as well. Then you are freed, you go off to war because you are promised freedom, and when you come back from war, you don't get your freedom.
...

Here is just a little read, and just a crack in the door on Minority anger with the powers that be.

Reconstruction Era - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reconstruction_Era)

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.



Lastly, and oddly enough - I made a bet with a few of my friends. I challenged them to take a DNA test, so they know exactly what their racial make up is. My white friends didn't want to participate, but my Black, Latino, and South Asian friend jumped at the bet willingly. Peer pressure finally got my white friends in the game, so we are waiting to see the results. Since I have done this before, I pretty much know my outcome. However, when I did this before, some people were VERY surprised at what their DNA test results were - almost to the point of disbelief and agony.

I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

~~
Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

[JohnMichael]

What you mentioned in the stereo store is what happened at Barney's, I'm assuming that is still considered racial profiling. Then there's the opposite like the incident Sir T described in the restaurant. You can only hope at some point society would progress.


The difference is some store security, police departments and TSA agents have consciously decided to racially profile. The men at the store did not even realize their own bias. Once it was mentioned to them and they thought about it they realized their own prejudice.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

What happened in the past is a disgrace but should not be used as an excuse for any minority today. No one today is/was a slave. As one speaker from the NAACP was saying minorities need to take advantage of education, take pride in themselves, get involved, vote, etc.

If you know the history of Black folks in that past, they have done all of this, and still have the highest unemployment rates, lower pay, and still experience institutional racism. Only a person who has never experienced multi-generational racism would make this statement.


Racial Profiling is real as in the recent example of Barney's who had to admit they were guilty of it, and, something to be upset about. Many here are upset by racial profiling of authorities who took the oath to protect and serve. This is also a disgrace, as well the link I posted above, and it shows society hasn't come as far as we thought. This recent killing here and the one just a week or so in NYC are prime example of authorities gone too far and brought things to the boiling point. Justice is supposed to be fair and balanced, now those in charge have to decide whether they'll step up to the plate and effect real change and hold violators of rights responsible. This type of distrust will be virtually impossible to erase.

This comment is exactly why it is not enough to get an education, take pride in yourself, and get involved. When the racism is so profoundly deep and embedded in the prevailing culture, no matter what you do, it is not enough to get you equality. History has proven this over and over again.


I mentioned above when I moved here from Atlanta it was like going back in time regarding race, it was interesting to hear a guest on MSMBC mention that St. Louis is still one of the most segregated cities in the country. Not sure how that bares out in Sir T's South as the villain theory. Although racism is every where.unfortunately, I just don't think we can stereotype one region of the country vs another.

My perspective is not limited to the south. I have said many times the Midwest is just as bad as the south, and I personally could never live in either place. The very idea that I could achieve great success in my career, and still be looked at as a second class citizen based on the region I lived in is very unpalatable to me.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, I'm not sure what it is you think I disagree with.

Certainly slavery AND subsequent racism are abhorrent. It is disgusting the poor white antebellum farmers and workers in the South embraced racism that, in reality, served primarily wealthy plantation owners. It is disgusting that Southern white racists were allowed to impose the 'Jim Crow' laws after Reconstruction. It is disgusting the men of learning and stature such as Woodrow Wilson were racists and introduce segregation is areas like the Federal civil service where it hadn't been before. It is disgusting the lightly veiled racism one hears directed at Barrack Obama. And it's disgusting to hear lightly veiled racism today from the likes of Tea Party supporters.

Blacks have a right to be angry. But anger is one thing, hate and slander of whites is another. If neutrality is the goal, tolerance -- from both sides -- is a step along the way.

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel(see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).




I would love to have my DNA tested, and having thinking of it for sometime. If you know organization that does this for a reasonable price, let me known. But note that I'm interest in a fine breakdown of male chromosome information; I'm reasonably certain that I am of 100% European descent, so what I would be looking for is a finer breakdown, e.g. Celtic vs. Scandinavian. It tends to cost good deal more to get the more detailed info.

Feanor, unfortunately I don't know of an organization that does this test for a reasonable price. I got my done as a classroom experiment in a race relations class at USC.

~~

Speaking of minority anger, the minority today that needs to be a lot angrier is the poor -- whatever their race. I have an hunch that today the ongoing race issue tends to cloak for the even more widespread issue of poverty.

Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.


Actually a degree of majority anger is becoming apropos what with the weakening of the middle class, (of all races), in the USA and Western countries due to the increasing concentration of wealth AND political power in the hands of the <1%.

We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.

[Mr Peabody]

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.

[Mr Peabody]

1. Top story: The racially charged controversy over the Missouri shooting
St. Louis remains one of the most racially segregated metro areas in the U.S. "Residents, advocacy groups and onlookers far from St. Louis are focused on the details surrounding the fatal confrontation....But there's a much broader piece of context here that has to do with a legacy of racial segregation in U.S. cities, which has eroded more slowly in St. Louis than many other big metros. St. Louis remains among the most segregated metropolitan areas in the country. According to data from Brown University's US2010 Project, looking at the 50 metropolitan areas with the largest black populations as of 2010, St. Louis ranks as the 9th most segregated." Emily Badger in The Washington Post.

[JohnMichael]

Sir T's post shows what was edited by a mod from my original post, I wasn't notified of why my post was edited. The statements from NAACP & segregation were direct from televised programming and I don't see what I said being any different from other posts here on the topic.


None of your posts have been edited. What Sir T quoted I can read in your post. There is no trace of an edit.

[Feanor]

I must ask Feanor, why is it okay for whites to hate and slander Blacks and Latinos, but it is not okay for Blacks and Latino's(out of sheer anger and frustration) to feel the same way? Your comments while intellectually correct are completely devoid of the emotional impact of nearly 500 years of inequality, nearly 500 years of frustration, and nearly 500 years of being looked at as an animal or second class citizen(which still exist today). Racism in America is is a extremely long term problem in this country, and let's face it, it was built on it from day one. Blacks and Latino's have been more than patient in trying to achieve equality in this country. Each and every time some level of success has been achieved, the powers that be change the rules, and minorities are back to square one. You can only take this kind of treatment for so long, and then you rebel (see riots in Miami, Los Angeles, Cincinnati, New York, and so on).
Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.



Who is the poor in America? It is Blacks and Latino's and that is a fact.
The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)



We have seen this before during the depression. Anytime whites find themselves unemployed in wide numbers, they blame either Mexican immigration, or they tend to limit the financial possibilities of blacks via institutional racism. During the depression, one all black town in the south remained very prosperous(largely because they could not do business beyond their community) because the dollar in their community change hands WITHIN the community 36 times before going outside of the community. Whites became jealous of this success, and burn the town to the ground, and killed nearly all of its residents. While we are not killing people today in mass like back then, we are killing their spirit by economically limiting them.
Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Sir T, where did I ever say it is OK for whites to hate & slander Blacks and Latinos? Never. Please make no such insinuation.

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.


However, I am saying is that reciprocal Black/Latino/Asian racism isn't acceptable either. The racial situation has been and will be for quite some time a problem in the USA and elsewhere. BUT the solution will NOT include "minorities" responding in kind to "majority" racism.

What do you suggest minorities do stand there and just take it? Do we just unemotionally accept that some whites won't just push you away from the table, but may not allow you there in the first place? Blacks have been down this road already. I don't know any race or culture that has not hated their oppressor.


Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.


So sorry if it sounds unemotional but Yes, Blacks and Latinos are going to have to keep on being patient. Patience may certainly include protests but not reciprocal racism. Most of all "patience" will include Blacks & Latinos getting out a voting for candidates who cleary espouse their cause.

This is just so naive it makes my head hurt. (Putting myself in the place of Blacks). How in the hell can you expect me to not hate the people that brought me here, changed my name, sold me and separated me from my family over and over again, call me ugly, won't let me practice my culture, hang me arbitrarily, call me 3/5 of a human, spit on me, let loose dogs on me and fire water cannons on me(when I do protest), deny me the right to vote, and when I could vote, would never let a candidate that support my cause see the light of day, discriminate against me with jobs, the court system, the and school system, and not to mention their killing young people who are not even armed(which sends a message your life is not worth anything)? Do you really expect me not to hate the people who would do this to me? Really???

Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual(whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other(divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.



The statistics show that in absolute numbers there are actually more poor whites than poor Blacks or Latinos; (not surprising since they are still the "majority"). Are there higher proportions of Blacks and of Latinos in poverty higher? Yes, not doubt.

So why is this? It is because whites have institutionally shut Blacks and Latino's out of the game. A poor white man can pull himself up by his bootstraps. He is white. Blacks and Latino's cannot pull themselves up by their bootstraps, because they don't have any boots. This is the way some whites want it, and why it has been this way for centuries.


So -- as an intellectual exercise, Sir T -- would the poverty situation be made better by equalizing the proportions in poverty? Should this be brought about by decreasing only the numbers of Blacks and Latino poor OR by increasing the number of poor white people? OR would it actually be better to reduce poverty overall? (Consider that the most egregious white racism is among the poorest and least educated whites.)

Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.



Well I would say it's progress that massing killings aren't happening today.

Progress? Perhaps. Or just a change in tactics. Mass killings were tried already, and they failed get the desired impact(keep folks in their place). Now there is a new game in town. Kill off young black males, or put them in jail which kills off their future economic opportunities. Make Blacks and Latino's invisible in the public eye. Fill all magazines with white faces, and tell minorities they are too ugly to sell magazines. Don't show 1,000 young Black males graduating from college on television, and don't report it. Throw out any resume that has a known Black name, they would not fit into our office culture. If a candidate shows up with dreadlocks, don't hire them; if does not fit into our office culture. Black women, no natural hair, it does not fit in with our office culture. These kinds of things emotionally break you down, and that is sorely missing out of your points. Today's racism is not in your face, it is a subtle emotional and psychological warfare designed to slowly break you down. It will if you let it.


As for US illegal immigration today, I say that it reflects a deep hypocrisy in American society and the American economy. (1) Many resent the illegal incursion of some many of a foreign language and culture who (seem) to threaten their jobs and way of life in general. They resent that they are powerless to prevent this. (2) There is a significant portion of businessmen and farmers who want the cheapest possible labor; they are quite content that their workers remain undocumented and therefore underpaid and not subject to regular employee protections.

I absolutely agree with you here! Use the cheap labor as long as you need them, and send them home when you don't. No benefits, and no chance to stay and obtain citizenship, and no chance for a better life.

On the flip side of the coin, many Mexicans would LOVE to come here and work for six months LEGALLY, and go home for six months. Many more don't want to live here because of the racism, but have no work or employment future at home. The Mexican government loves this, because so many send money back home to Mexico, and the Mexican government does not have to use any resources to care for the segment of the population.

On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.

[Feanor]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)




Where is the race "neutrality" you want? Do you expect that first white need to be "neutral" and only then that Blacks and Latinos will need to be "neutral"? It just can't work that way.

Yes I do, and it can work that way if whites allowed it. They created this problem, made it worse and worse over the centuries, and it is up to them to make the first step in cleaning it up. The problem is they won't make that step, because it would mean they would have to give up something. Whites are in no mood to give up anything to minorities, and you and I both know this.

If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.



Here is why I think you are missing the mark on this. Intellectually you are spot on. However the major component of this is not intellectual (whites KNOW racism is wrong), it is deeply emotional, and that is what you are missing here. The major component here is the emotional and psychological impact, not the intellectual. Most everything Whites have done to Blacks, Indians, Asians, and Latino's is to emotionally crippled them, keep them divided and fighting amongst each other (divide and conquer anyone), and tell them the need to be governed by Whites because they are incapable of governing themselves. It is the psychological warfare that does the most damage, and that is what is missing from your intellectual perspective.

Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.



Feanor, poverty overall is another issue altogether with. Poverty didn't lead to racism, racism led to poverty. No white person has been pushed into poverty because of their skin color....minorities have. This is a smoke screen to me.
Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)



On this subject, hypocrisy is everywhere.
So it seems.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

(Oh, boy ... here we go ...)

Yep, here we go.


If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.

This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.


Actually it's damned hypocritical on your part to call for "neutrality" from whites if you don't see the the need for reciprocal neutrality from Blacks, et al., in real-time. And it tends to make you look like racist around here.

Can you explain to me why the person with the boot on the neck has to proclaim neutrality when they didn't start this in the first place, and have no power to end it(or it would have been done already)? Blacks don't control any power in America. They are not oppressing whites, limiting their economic chances, calling whites ugly and unmarketable, or telling whites where they can live, or redlining them because they don't want to live next to them. And please Feanor, put your racist card back in your wallet. Anyone who actually knows me know that it is not possible for me to be racist against whites. I am part white.



Yes, true, damned true, at least historically. White racism arose during the amazingly rapid rise of Europe from a backwater in the 14th century to world dominance by the mid 19th century. Does the is make white racism unique, NO, other than its relatively recent origin and world span. Racism has always existed and still exists almost everywhere among people of all races.

No other race in history has enslaved a group of people based on race ALONE. It was always slavery as the spoils of war. This racism is unique in that is was born out of slavery, and even after slavery officially ended blacks were still slaves because of lack of economic oportunities. If I only have access to the lowest paying jobs, then I am still in slavery despite any decree.


The worldwide scourge of racism ISN'T going to be solve by whites alone giving it up. If you believe this you are wrong and in grave danger of being labelled a racist yourself.

This BS is just plain nonsense. What the hell can Blacks and Latino's do to whites? Not one damn thing except to say I don't like you because of how you have treated me and mine. What does a minorities do to proclaim neutrality, allow whites to continue kicking their asses? Give me a freakin break here. The people with all of the power have to give up some of that power PERIOD. The people with no power have nothing to give here.



Remove the fear & envy by alleviating poverty and racism looses most of its raison d'être. You've offered the explanation yourself: fear of loss of economic security is probably most common source of racism today among whites (and various others). But, (and apparently you agree), the second most common cause is envy by those who have less of those who have more.

It is not envy, because blacks had achieved a high level of success in the history of this country(only to have it taken away, and the folks that achieved it killed

Greenwood, Tulsa, Oklahoma - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenwood,_Tulsa,_Oklahoma)




Maybe I'm outa line here, but it seems me you, as a Latino, (black godmother, etc.), seem a bit of a whiner for a member of the 1%'er. (While my income is below the national median.)

This was a cold low blow that clearly outlines that you as a white male do not like me as a minority working my ass off and being rewarded for my work. You are out of line, and the words you chose are very revealing. Don't be a hater, it is very unattractive. And please leave the "green" suit in the closet.

[JohnMichael]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I am going to throw this out there and I may be sorry I did. When we are talking about prejudice as prejudging a group of individuals and hate based on that prejudging as a basis of racism is not the victim of the hate the more knowledgeable on the subject? Reading about something is not the same as experiencing a thing.

I could no more speak about what it must be like to go to war having never been a soldier regardless of how much I read.

JM, this is a good point. Anyone that just plain "intellectualize" racism totally misses the point. Anyone who has never heard the words "I don't want to work with you because nobody will hire a Latino". Anyone who has never heard the words "Sorry, we don't serve half breeds" will never understanding how demeaning it is.

I am going to tell you why I thought Feanor's last statement to me was ignorant as hell. Oprah Winfrey has made FAR, FAR, FAR, FAR more money than I have, but a store salesperson would not even show her a bag.

http://thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/08/09/oprah-winfrey-and-the-handbag-she-couldnt-have/?_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=0

The amount of money you make does not make a bit if difference when the prevailing thought is because of your color, you can't afford it.

On my first studio job, I was assigned to a mixing room, but nobody in the all white post production department would work with me. Why, because they said that nobody would hire a latino for a mix job, and partnering with me would hurt their income. So I went on alone doing everything myself(when it usually requires three people). At the end of the year it turns out that my mixing stage made far more money than the next closest mix team. Why? Because I could mix my ass off, and do it at or under budget.

Or let's talk about the when I auditioned for Color Guard Captain in my freshman year of high school. Some white students found it objectionable that a minority would try for this leadership position, and actually put out a petition to prevent me from even auditioning. When I asked why, some folks responded that we have never had a minority as a captain, and they didn't think I could do the job(it was a hard job). Thanks to the Band Director I was given a chance(he was Jewish). Everyone on the 10 man panel gave my audition a perfect 10 across in every area the audition covered, and still students protested. I got the job, and for the next four years our Guard completely dominated the competition. So much for I cannot handle the job. However, as a result of getting that job, I had my locker blown up by a cherry bomb four times, destroying my books(I had to replace them, and it was not cheap) and everything else in the locker. My parents had the money to pay my tuition every year I attended that exclusive school, so money was not the issue. The issue was the students didn't want minorities attending there. If they did, they wanted them to "stay in their place"(whatever the hell that means).

Or how about the time the Cavaliers went to Mississippi for DCI national championships. The entire 128 member corps walked out of three restaurants during championship week because they would not serve the four black guys, and the three latino's that were in the guard. I was the one that had a credit card given to me(so I had the money to buy breakfast, lunch, and dinner at all three of these restaurants), and yet they would not serve me. The amount of money you have in your pockets(or on plastic) does not matter if the racist doesn't think you were worthy to be served.

Throughout my entire life I kept being told no you can't do it, or no you can't have it because of my skin color. So if anyone thinks that just because you are in the 1% that you should not complain about racism, they are dead wrong. Just ask Oprah about that.

In spite of the fact that Magic Johnson is also in the 1%, Donald Sterling had no problem insulting him, and telling his ho for a girlfriend not to bring people like that(Blacks) to HIS games. When you think so low of minorities, money is a non-issue.

This is why I thought Feanor's stupid comment was pretty damn insulting. He just does not seem to get it, and that is because he has never been touched by it. Stand in my shoes for a week, and see if you change your mind about that statement.

[Smokey]

Whites don't need your OK, they have been hating and slandering blacks for nearly 500 years, and Latino's for nearly 300 years.

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent :)

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world) :)

[Feanor]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):
It reinforces still existing white racism
Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
(Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.





If you believe that Black/Latino/whatever racism, (as opposed to mere anger, resentment), is an acceptable response to white racism, then racism is certainly here for the long haul.
This is not why it is here for the long haul. It is here for the long haul because whites cannot plainly see they are doing anything wrong, or that anything is wrong institutionally. How does one parse racism from anger and resentment? The response to racism IS anger and resentment.

{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

[JohnMichael]

I agree that whites should take alot of blame as what is happening, but on the same note blacks and latinos are not so blameless and innocent :)

What about all the shootings, robbery and violence that is happening in blacks and latino community, or emanating from those communities?

I live in urban area and a night does not go by without hearing somebody did drive by shooting, or shoot up a person or place in east part of town. Or if there is a robbery (either a person, bank or business) in town, 4 out of 5 times description is given as minority.

What I mean is we are all in this toghether. If we want to improve things, we have to start with ourselves (that not only apply here, but all over the world) :)


When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

[JohnMichael]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.

It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):
It reinforces still existing white racism
Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
(Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.



{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong. In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

I repeat: this is my last on the subject.



Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

[JohnMichael]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.

[Feanor]

Remember when you speak of politicians reducing institutionalized racism it is important to remember that not all politicians wanted those laws enacted. It has mostly been the Democrats that have fought for social change. Just because a law changes does not mean men's hearts change.

In some ways these laws made things better superficially but we never did resolve the race issues. Seeing the activities of the Tea party and their new voice of racism saddens me. A bunch of scared white folks who got theirs and do not want women and minorities to become equals. Damn and I thought things were getting better. People did not improve because of a change of heart but due to a change in law.

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

[Feanor]

Being pasty white I never experienced racism but being gay I have dealt with a lot of prejudice. As a white man I could get the job but later when they figured out I was gay I lost the job. Going to a predominately white catholic school I was the minority and was treated as such. I was taunted and tormented for being something I had not even completely figured out for myself.

Back in the days when they could ask questions such as are you married were often the turning point of an interview. All would be going well and the employer was interested when that question would be asked. Being in my mid 20's to 30's and not being married the whole tone of the interview would change and end abruptly.

I never had a cross burned in my yard but the phone would ring at night with death threats. I might be walking to work when a car would pull up and begin shouting f@g and c@cksucker which then might elicit interesting questions from people I was walking past on the sidewalk. If I did go downtown to the one gay bar which became gay after the older regulars left about 10 PM I knew it would take all my skills to get home. Pick up trucks of rednecks would show up at closing time to harass. Boy I could drive those back alleys and make turns that the trucks could not. Once home I would hide my car in case the pursuit would continue.

I know some of you will not like this post based on reactions to other posts I have made but believe me I know what being prejudged is about. I know how it kills your will to succeed because it is just a matter of time before the rug gets pulled out anyway.

This does not even cover prejudice in one's family. Coming out can be a whole nightmare on it's own.
All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?

[JohnMichael]

All deplorable, JM, and I'd like to believe these things wouldn't happen in the community where I lofe, (though I suppose some do from time to time).

But my question is, Do you hate all 'straight' people in general as a result?



No but I am still very guarded. I do not trust straight people at first meeting. I recently started a new job and my levels of anxiety are high. Sure there are some I hate who went out of their way to do me harm. Having been a victim of a hate crime where the unthinkable happened I do wish for the death of my violator.

If you have not lived under the oppression of prejudice it is tough to understand. It can be as small as an uncle who would buy everyone a Christmas present but you. It could be a physical attack at work but since you have been told any more gay issues and you would be terminated you take the attacks in stride. After all you made the mistake of reporting the death threats that were drawn on the wall of the locker room. Yes I am leery.

[Smokey]

When people are denied jobs based on the color of their skin or ethnic background poverty breeds a lack of hope. I think if you were hungry enough you might steal a loaf of bread. If there are no jobs available to you but you could live very well selling drugs you might be tempted. I think racism breeds poverty and poverty increases crime.

Drugs are a great way to numb yourself from a bad life situation. Sadly drugs become either mentally or physically addicting. Living in poverty with no hope and now addicted to drugs you might be capable of doing anything for your next fix. You deal drugs to supply your habit and if someone is cutting into your business you kill them. Poverty becomes in some instances an endless cycle.

I agree with your statement that racism breed poverty, and poverty breed crime. And if you include drugs in the mix, we will have an expolsive mix.

I also believe that alot of crimes happening is also due to a person upbringing (that is true for every race). If there is no father figure or strict authority in the house, the child have more tendecy to stray than the one that have a butt kicking authority waiting for them at house.

Sorry to say that alot of crime commited by minorities fit former above scenario than latter family scenario.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

These are my final comments on the subject ...

Thank goodness, because on this subject, you can't even buy a clue.

First of all: BLACK RACISM IS NOT VALID: no racism is valid.


It is one thing to explain a phenomenon, it is another thing to excuse, justify or validate it. Black racism is certainly explainable -- emotionally or intellectually -- on the basis of injustices done to Blacks. However Black racism is invalid and counter-effectual for rationally obvious reasons; (sorry if emotions get the way):
It reinforces still existing white racism
Like hatred in general, it is psychologically damaging to the person doing the hating
(Least importantly), it occasionally will harm a white person who him/herself might or might not be racist.


Oh please, my boots stink and are nearly covered with.......your crap. Whites have never needed blacks to do anything for them to dislike them. Whites think blacks are inferior in every way to whites, and based on that - should stay in their place. That is the prevailing thought process since slavery.



{emphasis added}

This is a slander, (lie). Plenty of whites CAN plainly see that they, (i.e. other whites), are still doing wrong.

Then instead of sitting on their hands with their mouths closed, why don't they do or say something? I tell you why they don't. Even if whites have no issues with blacks, they do not want to give up the power and privilege of being the so called "boss" of this country. So you can call "slander" all you want, but that is just a smokescreen that can easily fanned away.


In the recent past white politicians primarily have been responsible for reducing the "institutional"issues: Blacks don't have to sit at the back of the bus, aren't refused seats at lunch counters, have to drink from separate water fountains, (I can still remember why shock when I observed this for the first time when I visited Florida circa 1959). it is everywhere against the law to discriminate for jobs or housing on the basis of race. Blacks aren't denied entry to the colleges or universities, (the contrary if you take affirmative action into account). A Black is POTUS, (notwithstanding that he's actually mixed race and not an Black American strictly speaking).

Have you been hiding under a rock since the civil rights bill has been signed? Racism does not have to be back of the bus, or lunch counter. That is overt racism that is roundly frowned upon. Today it is more insidious and subtle. If I see a resume with the name Tasha Williams, or Kenisha Jones, they toss the resume in the trash, no matter who qualified they are. 20/20 pointed this out YEARS ago. Harassing and jailing the primary money maker and head of the household(which is called economic warfare) is the new racism. Today it is so institutional and deeply rooted in subtleties, that is skips the radar of most whites - who now thing we are post racial(are you kidding?). You obviously have not been keeping up, but Affirmative Action has been slowly eroding away for the last decade. No longer can you use race to weight admission. You can't do it in California, Michigan, Texas, and any other public educational institution. So you think because it is against the law to discriminate in jobs and housing that they don't do it? That is insanely ignorant of you. You ever heard of Donald Sterling?

The Devastating Impact Of Housing Discrimination Perpetrated By People Like Donald Sterling | ThinkProgress (http://thinkprogress.org/sports/2014/04/29/3432139/sterling-housing-discrimination/)

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/12/business/economy/discrimination-in-housing-against-nonwhites-persists-quietly-us-study-finds.html?_r=0

Feanor, it might help if you pull your head out of the sand.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/06/education/black-students-face-more-harsh-discipline-data-shows.html

Laws don't change minds. Sorry Feanor.


If you reject that there has been enormous progress against discrimination and racism, then you're being either disingenuous or dishonest with yourself.

If you accept there has been ENORMOUS progress against racism, then you have been living under a rock WITH your head buried in the sand. It has not progressed all that much, but it has certainly changed. It is no longer overt, it is much more covert. The laws have changed, but people minds have not.


I used the phase earlier, "functional racism", asserting that it is greatly reduced. But, "Ah! Bill", you say, "in their hearts whites still hate Blacks and Latinos". To which I respond, "Yeah, some still do, but at least you got to eat lunch with your colleagues".

So because I get to eat lunch with my colleagues somehow that makes life better for me? It does not, especially when at that lunch the waiter didn't really WANT to serve me. What a stupid statement to make.


I repeat: this is my last on the subject.

Before you go, can you send me your address. I want to send you a check so you can buy a clue......from anywhere.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

JM, I hope nothing I said caused Sir Terrence to misconstrue my meaning, nor that I have misconstrued his.

In no way do I mean to minimize White racism that still exists. I did point out that effective discrimination is much reduced, but I didn't mean to imply that the nation has gone far enough.

What I construed from Sir T's comments was that Black or Latino racism, (generalized hatred of, or discrimination towards, Whites), was NOT ONLY explainable/understandable BUT ALSO justified/valid. This I reject on the very practical grounds that it is not only deplorable in itself but also COUNTER-EFFECTIVE in terms of reducing residual White racism.

There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).

[Feanor]

(Fine, make a liar out of me ... )


There is a very thin line between hatred of whites, and profound anger with them.

However, the thin line should be observed.



Racism

prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism directed against someone of a different race based on the belief that one's own race is superior.

In my entire lifetime, I have never heard Blacks or Latino's say their race was superior to whites. They say it is EQUAL, but never said it is better. It seems you do not have a very good grasp of what racism actually means, or you would not make such asinine statements. Blacks and Latino's don't necessarily hate whites, but they sure are mad as hell about how they have been treated by them. They should be.

Reducing racism cannot come from anywhere else except from the white community. They control the power structure of this country, and they essentially make its rules. There is nothing a black or Latino can say to a white person that changes their biased perspective. There is nothing blacks and latinos can DO to change that biased perspective either. What you are attempting is to try and be fair, and that is hard to do when things are so out of balance. In order for equality to exist, whites MUST give up seats at the table. Unfortunately they are not willing to do that, hence why racism is as prominent today as it way yesterday(albeit quite different).
The above definition seems to say that to be racism, prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism must be based on a sense of one's racial superiority. Why necessarily on a sense of superiority? This implies that prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are acceptable otherwise. Ah! But this seems to be your whole point: tit-for-tat prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism is OK. :thumbsup: Well I don't agree: prejudice, discrimination, or antagonism are not acceptable under any circumstance.

You must have lead a sheltered live if you've never heard a Black or Latino claim racial superiority; even I have hear the odd Black say that occasionally.

The days of affirmative action are coming to an end. Minorities must EARN their seats at the table: fortunately a good many have done so already and more are doing so all the time.

Even if Blacks and Latinos could do nothing to reduce white's bias, for sure they can do a lot to REINFOCE white bias.

Quit while your behind, Sir T; (I'll bet you won't because you never, ever concede that you're wrong). Everything you say tends to show that you are the racist around here.

[Feanor]

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Racially_motiv ated_hate_crime) ...


Racially motivated hate crime

The federal government publishes a list annually of Hate Crime Statistics, 2009. Also published by the federal government is the Known Offender's Race by Bias Motivation, 2009. According to the Federal Bureau of Investigation Uniform Crime Report database, in 2010 58% of hate crime offenders were Latino or white, 18% of offenders were black, 8.9% were of individuals of multiple races and 1% of offenders were Native Americans. The report also reveals that 48% of all hate crime offenders were motivated by the victim's race, while 18% were based on the victim's religion, and another 18% were based on the victim's sexual orientation. The report states that among hate crime offenses motivated by race, 70% were composed of anti-black bias, while 17.7% were of anti-white bias, and 5% were of anti-Asian or Pacific Islander bias.

As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?

[JohnMichael]

Further Black racism, this from Wiki based on Federal government statistics, HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_and_crime_in_the_United_States#Racially_motiv ated_hate_crime) ...



As we see from this, Blacks are responsible for their share of racially motivated hate crimes.

Will Sir T will argue that if its Black/Latino on White then the stats are bogus because Black/Latino on White can't be racist?


I find it odd that whites and Latinos are added in together. I also find it odd if you underlined the 18% of black hate crimes. I would have to say whites commit the higher level of hate crimes. I know as a part of the 18% victims of hate crimes based on sexuality my attacker was white. I have never heard of a straight white man dragged down a country road chained to the back of a pickup truck.

[Hyfi]

So since this thread started, I have seen the movie running 8 more times at least on the same channel. Have to start wondering who runs the station.

After seeing the bolded definition of Racism, I can say I am not a Racist. But I do harbor negative feelings for certain groups of people who spend all their energy perpetuating what they complain about.

Just look at Furgeson. I hate trigger happy police, but it's nothing new. Gil Scott Heron sang about it in B Movie back in the 70s. But what are the facts now after a young man was shot to death in a violent way.

2 weeks of Violence, Destruction, Looting, and more Violence all in protest of what? Yeah, Violence. If you continue to act like animals, you continue to get seen as and treated like animals. Maybe all that energy could be used to get themselves out of the situation they are in.

What happened years ago after the Million Man March? Not much if anything. Almost nobody went home after marching and turned their communities around. I would be willing to bet that if you polled 50 inner city black teenagers today, at least 40 of them would not have a clue what you were talking about if asked "What was the Million Man March?"

So fingers can be pointed, but those finger pointers need to take a good look in the mirror and do something about the stigma and bad name they continue to give themselves and their communities.

There is no excuse that validates the behavior that goes on in the cities and increasingly in the suburbs. I can't turn on the news without hearing about all the senseless murders in Philly over a couple bucks. So if as a whole, a certain group of people want to be respected and treated the same as certain other groups, it's time to stop blaming the past and start changing their image and behavior that keeps them in the situation they are currently in.

[JohnMichael]

I am curious as to why this thread was closed.