BAT Preamp

[blackraven]

My BAT VK-51se preamp is on its way. It will arrive Tuesday.
Here are pic's of the exact preamp. I bought this one-

SOLD: BAT VK-51SE Tube Preamplifier (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118039.0)

Here is the Stereophile review on it-

Balanced Audio Technology VK-51SE line preamplifier | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/1103bat/index.html)

The preamp is an older model and has been replaced by the better sounding 52se version. But I don't have an extra $10K to spend on it.

I have bought a new set of tubes, so there will be a break in period of about 25-30 hours.

[Mr Peabody]

I know you have to be excited.

[Feanor]

My BAT VK-51se preamp is on its way. It will arrive Tuesday.
Here are pic's of the exact preamp. I bought this one-

SOLD: BAT VK-51SE Tube Preamplifier (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=118039.0)

Here is the Stereophile review on it-

Balanced Audio Technology VK-51SE line preamplifier | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/1103bat/index.html)

The preamp is an older model and has been replaced by the better sounding 52se version. But I don't have an extra $10K to spend on it.

I have bought a new set of tubes, so there will be a break in period of about 25-30 hours.
At last! The review are generally very positive and it sounds like something I personally could enjoy. But we breathlessly await your comments.

[TheHills44060]

That thing looks serious! Yeah can't wait to hear your impressions.

[frenchmon]

Congrats mi man! Hope you enjoy it.

[blackraven]

Well, I have a BAT in the house. I installed the tubes and have about 40 minutes of listening so far.

Here are my son's comments- "It sounds more high end than the Pass. It has a blacker back ground. The sound is more holographic and there is more spacing between the instruments. Everything sounds more life like. Things sound crisper. There is more detail. It is more musical and there is more front to back depth. It has a more forward sound. Treble is more prominent and better. The sound stage is not as wide. Bass does not have as much slam but is seems tighter. The midrange is deeper and better. It does not sound too tubey. Vocals sound like they are in the room with you"

Those were my son's impressions and I have to agree with everything. I might add that the sound is a little darker. There is a little less air than the Pass but I think that is because the music has more texture and depth. There is more emotion to the music. The attack on guitar and piano is much better, almost like my Parasound was but smoother. Guitar and piano sounds more natural as all the instruments do. Piano has much better decay as well. Vocals are much better and more realistic. The back ground is much quieter than the Pass and there is definitely more detail and resolution. In addition, there is much less sibilance on sibilant recordings.

Things that I don't like are the loss of bass slam and overall drop in bass. It is not thin or weak by any means, it is just that I got use to the bass with the Pass which sometimes could be over powering. Part of the problem is that there is a loss in gain with the BAT and part of it is due to the fact that I am using a single ended cable from my DAC with an XLR adapter, the same goes for my sub. I think that there is either a 3 or 6db loss in volume with the adapters. On the Pass I never had to turn the volume above 18 but on the BAT I have to turn it up to 80-105db with the max at 140. Even at 140 it does not sound as loud as the Pass. Unfortunately the BAT does not have a gain boost setting like the Pass. The only other things that I don't like are the slight loss in air and sound stage as well as the slightly more forward presentation. I will have to change the settings on my sub to compensate for the bass difference. I may have to bump the cross over up about 5hz and increase the volume a smidge.

I am sure some things will get better as the tubes break in. I was really planning on letting the tubes break in for about 10 hours before listening but you know how that goes. I will post updates as things begin to change. I won't make a decision until I have about 30-40 hours on the tubes.

In a previous post I said that I did not think that there would be a big improvement in the sound between the Pass and the BAT. I think that was an over statement as the 2 preamps are night and day different with the BAT having the huge edge in detail, resolution, musicality, emotion, texture and blackness to the background.

[Feanor]

Wow! A really positive report. Sounds like congratulations are in order. But I think you are right that final conclusions will need to come after quite a few hours of tube break-in.

The drop in gain was predictable. As I previously pointed out, your system is effectively single-ended front to back since the BAT doesn't convert an input to true balanced.

Of all your impressions, viz. "the BAT having the huge edge in detail, resolution, musicality, emotion, texture and blackness to the background", the ones I'd have least expected are the "huge edge" in detail and resolution. It's a disappointing commentary on the solid state Pass from which I would have expected better.

[blackraven]

Bill, don't get me wrong. The Pass is a great preamp, but the BAT is that much better. There is a $3K price difference. When new, the BAT cost $9K and the Pass $6K. The BAT at the time was one of the best preamps made. The 2 preamps have their strengths and weaknesses. I certainly was not expecting such a big improvement, especially the blacker background with more detail and resolution. Additionally, PRAT is better. The preamp is really fast. The Pass seems laid back in comparison. The weaker bass may be an issue for me in the long run. This morning the sound stage is starting to open up slightly after I let the tubes burn in for an additional 3 hours.

The BAT certainly resolves the issue of the midrange being a little dry and sterile as reviews of the Pass X250 have stated.

[Feanor]

Bill, don't get me wrong. The Pass is a great preamp, but the BAT is that much better. There is a $3K price difference. When new, the BAT cost $9K and the Pass $6K. The BAT at the time was one of the best preamps made. The 2 preamps have their strengths and weaknesses. I certainly was not expecting such a big improvement, especially the blacker background with more detail and resolution. Additionally, PRAT is better. The preamp is really fast. The Pass seems laid back in comparison. The weaker bass may be an issue for me in the long run. This morning the sound stage is starting to open up slightly after I let the tubes burn in for an additional 3 hours.

The BAT certainly resolves the issue of the midrange being a little dry and sterile as reviews of the Pass X250 have stated.
Sounds like a winner and I'd love to hear it.

[blackraven]

Update, I fixed the bass and sound stage issue. The sound is also no longer forward. Treble is pushed back some. I swapped tubes in my DAC. I put in the stock Van Alstine Electro-Harmonix tubes and the sound stage opened up and the bass slam is back. The sound has more air too. These tubes did not match well with my Pass X1 or preivious set up with my A21 amp because it was too bright and sibilant.

I talked to BAT and they recommended using the high end Cardas XLR-RCA adapters at $150pr. They felt it would improve the sound further. Right now I am using $22pr XLR adapters that I found here in town.

[frenchmon]

Wow! Raven! Sounds like you got a winner! Congrats again man. But can you post some pics? Nothing like tubes man...nothing like tubes.

[blackraven]

Thanks guys!

I will finally take pics of my system this weekend and post them. I was amazed at the inside of the BAT. Its built like a tank and there is a lot of expensive electronics in there. And 8 tubes which act as heat lamps (between the X250 and the BAT I can heat my house). The darn thing ways 45 pounds. I was worried about all the weight on my rack. 105lbs for the Pass amp, 55 pounds for my Adcom AVR and about 35 pounds of DAC, CD player, Tuner and BR player. I checked the rack specs and it can hold about 350lbs.

Frenchmon, I will never go back to a SS preamp at least while I have Magnepans. They really do sound better with tubes in the system.

[frenchmon]

Cool! I look forward to the pics.....and I feel ya on the tubes. Gots to have it!

[Feanor]

Cool! I look forward to the pics.....and I feel ya on the tubes. Gots to have it!
Blackraven's enthusiasm as stocked my interest in a tube preamp and BAT in particular. My initial and only tube preamp was a Sonic Frontiers Line 1 which, unfortunately, seemed to lack most of the commonly extolled tube preamp virtues.

BR's model is permanently out of my price range but there are one or two, especially earlier models that I might consider at some juncture; maybe a VK-3i with remote but not phono.

[blackraven]

Bill, I am convinced that Maggies sound the best with tubes in the system somewhere. I has to do with the midrange which has more depth, texture and bloom. Most reviews say that the sound better with tubes. My local Maggie dealer runs tube preamps with them.

Bill, there is a BAT VK-30 with the Super Pak upgrade for sale on Agon for $1900. I believe it is a step up from the 3i

Balanced Audio Technolgies VK-30 Tube Preamplifier w/ SUPER-PAK DEALER DEMO | Tube | Lake Grove, New York 11755 | AudiogoN - The High-end Audio Community (http://app.audiogon.com/listings/tube-balanced-audio-technolgies-vk-30-tube-preamplifier-w-super-pak-dealer-demo-2014-02-14-preamplifiers-11755-lake-grove-ny)

If you have any questions about it, give Geoff a call at BAT. He is very helpful.


Here is an update on the BAT, I sent this to Mr.P last night-


I am blown away by the BAT. It is simply the best preamp that I have heard. I sounds much better than the ARC LS27 which sells for $8700 or so. The shear power and grace of the BAT is astounding. It makes the X1 sound midfi. It has taken my system to new heights. Music is much more emotional and involving. The musicality, depth of the music is phenomenal. I have about 12 hours on the tubes and things are sounding better every hour. The sound stage has really opened up. The spacing between instruments is much better than the Pass. Everything sounds real and alive. The attack on piano and guitar is crisper and sounds like it should not smoothed over. The midrange is lush, liquid and deep. The preamp is dead quiet, more so than the Pass and on par with the ARC LS27. Treble sounds more natural with more air. The 2 preamps are really very different. With the Pass having a lighter more airy, transparent sound and a little more bass slam but not much more. The BAT is a faster sound with tighter bass and more control. I am amazed at how well the Magnepans sound. They really step up to the plate and respond accordingly to the level of electronics used in the system. All this and I am using a DAC that is a little long in the tooth but still sounds great. I think that you would like the sound, it has a hint of the tube sound and is just a smidge dark. The stereophile review from 2003 was dead on.

My son made this comment to me last night- The system now has that ultra high end feel and sound like the $110,000 system we heard 2 weeks ago.

[Feanor]

Bill, I am convinced that Maggies sound the best with tubes in the system somewhere. I has to do with the midrange which has more depth, texture and bloom. Most reviews say that the sound better with tubes. My local Maggie dealer runs tube preamps with them.

Here is an update on the BAT, I sent this to Mr.P last night-

I am blown away by the BAT. It is simply the best preamp that I have heard. I sounds much better than the ARC LS27 which sells for $8700 or so. The shear power and grace of the BAT is astounding. It makes the X1 sound midfi. It has taken my system to new heights. Music is much more emotional and involving. The musicality, depth of the music is phenomenal. I have about 12 hours on the tubes and things are sounding better every hour. The sound stage has really opened up. The spacing between instruments is much better than the Pass. Everything sounds real and alive. The attack on piano and guitar is crisper and sounds like it should not smoothed over. The midrange is lush, liquid and deep. The preamp is dead quiet, more so than the Pass and on par with the ARC LS27. Treble sounds more natural with more air. The 2 preamps are really very different. With the Pass having a lighter more airy, transparent sound and a little more bass slam but not much more. The BAT is a faster sound with tighter bass and more control. I am amazed at how well the Magnepans sound. They really step up to the plate and respond accordingly to the level of electronics used in the system. All this and I am using a DAC that is a little long in the tooth but still sounds great. I think that you would like the sound, it has a hint of the tube sound and is just a smidge dark. The stereophile review from 2003 was dead on.

My son made this comment to me last night- The system now has that ultra high end feel and sound like the $110,000 system we heard 2 weeks ago.
This is great info and great articulation of the strengths of the BAT vs. the Pass. It's not a surprise to me that the differences are as great as they are -- especially in recent years I've discovered that even well-regarded components can sound significantly different from each other. (The exception so far is cables that, in the price ranges I've heard, sound pretty much all the same.)

That the Magneplanars can soak up all the good stuff you can throw at them seems right to me too -- which isn't to say that MG 3.7s wouldn't sound better than 1.6s.

As for a DAC, if I wanted great tube sound I might check out Audio Note. Their analog sections feature very high quality components. If one listens exclusively 16/44.1 resolution, an AN might do a fabulous job. I believe their 3.1 version is available with balanced output as an option; in kit form it's (relatively) affordable: see HERE (http://www.ankaudiokits.com/dac3_1.html). On the down side, their digital section reflects Peter Qvortrup's idiotic, anti-digital ideology, not to mention the obsolete AD1865 18 bit DAC and CS8414 S/PDIF receiver.

[blackraven]

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

9616

[Feanor]

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

9616
I'll bet you had some help lifting the Pass X250 to the top shelf. :smile5:

The AN 3.1 isn't fully balance but uses transformers to create the +/- signals -- which is probably the next best thing. The AN's AD1865 DAC is a "ladder"-type DAC vs. delta-sigma, which some people swear by. I wouldn't bother with their USB module which isn't asynchronous.

[blackraven]

I'll bet you had some help lifting the Pass X250 to the top shelf.

Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.

[Feanor]

Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.
See my further AN comments editted in above.

[Feanor]

Thats for sure, that rack is 6 tiers and 53" tall.
My shelve definitely weren't going to take the weigh even of my X150.5; I fabricated a little plinth to carry it on the floor.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/medium/Stereo_system_Nov_2013.jpg http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/500/medium/Pass_Labs_X150_5.jpg

[Jack in Wilmington]

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

9616

I was wondering about that also. I had a hard enough time getting my X150.5 onto the bottom shelf, plus my upper shelf is only rated for 40 lbs.

[blackraven]

Jack, have you decided on what you are going to do about a preamp?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, have you decided on what you are going to do about a preamp?

I'm in a holding pattern until some projects get done around the house. We're waiting to see how much money is left over. The rest of the fixtures for the guest bath remodel have come in and will be delivered on Tuesday, so we can get that project going. I've been laying low since I got my X150.5 while some of her things get done.

[blackraven]

Jack, I am selling my X1 preamp for $2100 if you are interested.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, I am selling my X1 preamp for $2100 if you are interested.

I think that I would like to try some tubed pre first. Thanks for thinking of me and I'm sure it would be a step up from what I'm using now, but I'm at that age where if I'm going to do it, get what you want. You shouldn't have any trouble selling it, Pass Labs almost sell themselves.

[blackraven]

I think that I would like to try some tubed pre first. Thanks for thinking of me and I'm sure it would be a step up from what I'm using now, but I'm at that age where if I'm going to do it, get what you want. You shouldn't have any trouble selling it, Pass Labs almost sell themselves.

I don't blame you. Thats why I finally decided to upgrade my entire system. I am not getting any younger. Thank god for good used gear. I could not afford this $hit new!
I figure the new cost of my 2 channel system is about $20K and I paid 1/2 that.

[frenchmon]

That AN DAC looks interesting. I will have to research it. I am considering the PS Audio Perfect Wave MKii. It retails for $4K but can be had used for $2K. I want a DAC that is balanced.

Here is a picture of the BAT. Its quality is not that great-

9616

Now thats what im talking about! Bravo mi man...you've done good as they say! And I love what you have to say about the sound! Yeah man.....tubes is where its at as far as im concerned. Not to say SS amps arent great as well, but for my ears, tubes does it for me....I love the emotion and romance they offer.

As far as DAC...at that price point you should look around before spending on the PS Audio DAC....this DAC will be a much better buy with more options.

INVICTA | Resonessence (http://resonessencelabs.com/invicta/)

Amazing HiFi System with Resonessence Invicta DAC, Leema Acoustics and PMC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVL3YQIplY)

I will be purchasing the CONCERO HD in a few months.

CONCERO | Resonessence (http://resonessencelabs.com/concero/)

All the Resonessence Dacs have that Saber DAC which is outstanding.

[frenchmon]

So basically what Raven has is a hybrid system......cool.

Jack, I think you are doing it the right way, and you where at one point a tube man with the Jolida, so you know tubes and what they can offer. While you are getting your remodel done, you should spend some time doing research and scoping out which direction in tubed preamps you want to go?

[Jack in Wilmington]

So basically what Raven has is a hybrid system......cool.

Jack, I think you are doing it the right way, and you where at one point a tube man with the Jolida, so you know tubes and what they can offer. While you are getting your remodel done, you should spend some time doing research and scoping out which direction in tubed preamps you want to go?

I will be checking on various preamps while the construction is going on. BAT is about 20 minutes from my house and I also have my Audio Research dealer on the lookout for a nice used pre. You mentioned my old Jolida, it did have warmth and emotion but just lacked the low end thump that SS brings to the table.

[Feanor]

Now thats what im talking about! Bravo mi man...you've done good as they say! And I love what you have to say about the sound! Yeah man.....tubes is where its at as far as im concerned. Not to say SS amps arent great as well, but for my ears, tubes does it for me....I love the emotion and romance they offer.

As far as DAC...at that price point you should look around before spending on the PS Audio DAC....this DAC will be a much better buy with more options.

INVICTA | Resonessence (http://resonessencelabs.com/invicta/)

Amazing HiFi System with Resonessence Invicta DAC, Leema Acoustics and PMC - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crVL3YQIplY)

I will be purchasing the CONCERO HD in a few months.

CONCERO | Resonessence (http://resonessencelabs.com/concero/)

All the Resonessence Dacs have that Saber DAC which is outstanding.
The Resonessence INVICTA is a fascinating product. It's clearly more than simply a DAC, rather combines features of an AVR, media streamer, and preamp. The price is high although there is an argument for it considering its unique combo of features.

[blackraven]

Here is a nice detailed user review of the Invicta, it looks interesting-

Review: Resonessence Labs Invicta - new high end DAC/amp/playback system (http://www.head-fi.org/t/559407/review-resonessence-labs-invicta-new-high-end-dac-amp-playback-system)

Here is another review-

Resonessence Labs Invicta DAC Review (http://www.stereomojo.com/Resonessence%20Labs%20Invicta%20DAC%20Review/ResonessenceLabsInvictaDACReview.htm)

[frenchmon]

And from what I gather from several readings about the Resonessence Labs, they are the company that designs and manufactures the Sabre DAC. They are one and the same ESS Technology, they know DAC chips and the Sabre DAC chips are the leaders in this technology.

Company | Resonessence (http://resonessencelabs.com/company/)


"Resonessence Labs is a trading name of BCIC Designs Inc. a company registered in British Columbia Canada. The principal founder of the company is Mark Mallinson, former Operations Director for ESS Technology. The company’s focus is to design and manufacture exceptional audio products. Our design engineers and Investors are industry audio experts at DAC and ADC design, and were front and center in the design of the ESS Audio DAC and ADC."

ESS Technology - Clearly the best (http://www.esstech.com/index.php)


In about 2 months I will have one of their DAC's!

[Jack in Wilmington]

Raven wants a balanced DAC so that would rule out the Concero and push him up to the Invicta which I think is 4K. So the PS Audio might be the better fit for him. I've seen new units on Audiogon for $2200, now that's a deal.

[blackraven]

Raven wants a balanced DAC so that would rule out the Concero and push him up to the Invicta which I think is 4K. So the PS Audio might be the better fit for him. I've seen new units on Audiogon for $2200, now that's a deal.

Spot on Jack! It looks like PS Audio is dumping the MKii DAC as they are coming out with a new DSD DAC the Direct Stream, thats why there are so many MKii's for 1/2 price on audiogon right now from the manufacturer. I wish I could buy one now but my wife would divorce me. Hmm!

I am also considering a used Bel Canto DAC 2.5 and 3.5 and there is a local dealer here considering that they are made here in Minneapolis.

PS Audio | Connected high-end home entertainment products (http://www.psaudio.com/)


http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_DAC3_5_Digital_Audio_Converter.html

[Jack in Wilmington]

The Direct Stream looks like a sweet unit. I'll be looking for the reviews on that, when it hits the market.

I was looking at the back of the Bel Canto, they sure don't want you to use an after market power cord do they.

[Feanor]

Spot on Jack! It looks like PS Audio is dumping the MKii DAC as they are coming out with a new DSD DAC the Direct Stream, thats why there are so many MKii's for 1/2 price on audiogon right now from the manufacturer. I wish I could buy one now but my wife would divorce me. Hmm!

I am also considering a used Bel Canto DAC 2.5 and 3.5 and there is a local dealer here considering that they are made here in Minneapolis.

PS Audio | Connected high-end home entertainment products (http://www.psaudio.com/)


Bel Canto Design -- DAC3.5VB mkII (http://www.belcantodesign.com/Belcanto_DAC3_5_Digital_Audio_Converter.html)
Those are sweet looking components, not doubt.

Personally I'd prioritized balance topology and a discrete analog section ahead of DSD and gee-whiz features. For much less money but meeting those criterion I'd check out Schiit Audio's Gungnir DAC, HERE (http://schiit.com/products/gungnir).

The Gungnir is fully balanced and upgradable. I'm certainly very pleased with my Bifrost Uber which is, in effect, a single-ended version of the Gungnir. Quite conceivably Schiit will offer a DSD upgrade at some point although I personally think DSD is a scam -- there is absolutely no objective basis for considering DSD superior to PCM: quite the reverse actually.

[blackraven]

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.

[Feanor]

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.
Just a head's up here. The Loki would be fine for the occasional DSD file but it is essentially just a Modi with DSD. I owned the Modi for a while, and while the Modi, and I presume the similar Loki, was an easy listen, it didn't have anywhere near the transparency or air of the Bifrost much less the Bifrost Uber.

[Jack in Wilmington]

DSD is not a priority for me. Sound quality and XLR rank 1,2. I would like to have an SACD player though. Thats why I have been considering a Marantz 11S3 SACD player which is also a DAC. However the reviews on the Bel Canto's are excellent and appear to have the sound I am looking for-detailed, dynamic, transparent, wide sound stage with a hint of warmth.

I can always add a Schiit Loki if I want DSD.

Can you run two DAC's at the same time?

[Feanor]

Can you run two DAC's at the same time?
The Schitt Loki is unusual in that it has a by-pass that routes the output of your 'other' DAC through it and on directly to you amp/preamp input. I.e. this arrangement has the sole advantage that only one preamp input is need to accommodate both DACs. Note however that the Loki and our 'other' DAC must each have its own connection from the digital source.

[blackraven]

You sure can run 2 DAC's if your source has 2 digital outs.

Its been pretty dead around here lately so I thought I would post my final thoughts on the BAT.

The BAT has taken my listening experience to new heights and enjoyment. I spend 2-4 hours a day listening to music. The Pass X1 preamp surely improved the sound of my system but not to the extent of the BAT. The music is more palpable, textured and real sounding, especially vocals. I find myself smiling when listening. I am no longer sitting there and critiquing the sound any more. The pairing of the BAT and the Pass X250 amp is a good one and seems like they were made for each other.

I have been tube rolling my DAC and what I have found is that all the tubes sound good, just some are better than others. This was not the case with my Van Alstine preamp and the X1. I am amazed at how the BAT can take a source signal and make it sound so good.

Another thing that I have noticed and am grateful for is that the BAT makes all my recordings sound good, even the poorly recorded ones which is the complete opposite of what people have said about their high end gear. Most people say that their high end gear exposes the weaknesses of poorly recorded music. This is not so with the BAT. Yes, you will still be able to tell that it is a poor recording but because the BAT adds depth, detail and spacing between instruments, things just sound better. The hint of tube warmth and darkness helps as well. The Pass X1 did this to some extent but I find I am able to listen to some recordings that I did not want to listen to before with the X1 as they were fatiguing.

I am as close to Audio Nirvana as I can get right now. Adding a better DAC and a pair of Magnepan 1.7's would push me over the edge I think (of course the new BAT VK-53se and a Pass X250.5 would help too:14:).

[Mr Peabody]

Raven, Pass is up to the X250.8 now :). I met a guy from Audio Circle today, Blackmore, he has an older BAT tube power amp, he was telling me that he found his amp worked better with XLR connections, he said he could tell a difference even from using the adapters. I didn't ask if he ever used the Cardas. I also realize at this point you have no choice, I'm just passing along info.

I tried some Clarus XLR's in my system, I'll probably start another thread on them some day, the improvement was very good, no need for A/B as it was that evident. If you ever want to take your gear to new heights, once you recover from your recent purchases you need to experiment with quality cables. I don't know when Frenchie will be back around but he heard my system today with the cables. These are crazy expensive, I want to borrow some Transparent to get the comparison.

[Feanor]

Audio Nirvana tends to be elusive -- congratulations achieving it.

[blackraven]

I saw that there is an X250.8. Too expensive for me. The 250.5's should start showing up used at lower prices. Maybe some day I would upgrade but I would rather get a pair of 3.7i Maggies.

Mr P., I am using XLR between my Preamp and Amp. I finally bought pair of these Cardas Clear XLR adapters- Adaptors (http://www.cardas.com/adaptors.php) at the recommendation from Geoff at BAT. They normally sell for $150pr, I found them for $117pr. I use them to connect my DAC to the preamp. I can't tell any difference in sound quality between the $22pr adapters that I was using. I will probably sell them, what a waste of money. The build quality and metal is better but they sound the same.

I was able to negate some of the 6db drop off by using some higher gain tubes. I have some Tung Sol Black Plates from the 1950's that have a nice sound and higher gain.

I am currently negotiating with a guy on a pair of the Cardas Parsec XLR's. There is a woman on AC that replaced some high end kimber cables with the Parsecs and is now selling off all of her much more expensive Kimbers. She said that the Parsecs are as advertised- detailed with bit of warmth.

I am really digging the reviews of Bel Canto Canto DAC'S. Has any one heard one?

[Mr Peabody]

I've heard the Bel Canto and Frenchmon even borrowed one of the DAC/preamps some time back. They do sound good to me but I've never had the chance to A/B up against anything else. To me they come off as neutral, I didn't find it offensive in any way on the other hand it's not warm and fuzzy either. Associated amps were Bel canto as well.

Some one gave me a Cardas Cryo treated RCA to BNC adapter for my Audio Note DAC and I couldn't tell any difference from the regular Radio Shack one I had been using. I figured it was so small compared to the rest of the signal is maybe why.

I'm anxious for you to get the Cardas cables in to see what you think.

[Feanor]

I'm not surprised that you don't hear any difference between deluxe Cardas adaptors and the cheaper one. Hate to say it, but I'm not surprised that your BAT contact recommended the Cardas -- audiophile industry representatives & reviews tend to recommend the more expensive stuff. I wonder why that would be?

I recent suckered myself into buying a pair of 4', cryo-treated Neotech NEI-3004 XLR's from Take Five Audio. They were to replace a 7' pair of Belden 1800F from Blue Jeans Cable. The Take Five Neotech's aren't super expensive but did cost about 2x the Blue Jeans Belden. There is absolutely no difference in sound that I can detect.

My advice was and is don't spend money on high-end cables. The sound differences will be extremely small if not imaginary -- unfortunately we can't minimize the placebo effect on audiophiles.

[Mr Peabody]

Feanor, all you know is you heard no difference between those two brands, to take that small piece of information and make such a blanket statement is gross exaggeration. The fact is you've yet to spend any money on a cable of quality. If there's no difference why use BJC over the cheezy free cables? Why not try a cable you can return if you hear no difference? I think you are afraid that you might, hear a difference.

The "placebo effect" is a myth, especially how you apply it. If the majority of public, and smaller fraction being audiophiles, can't think for themselves then there's no hope for us and we'd just buy anything and everything, which to my observation is not the case.

I guarantee you if your hearing ability is there you can tell a difference between the BJC and entry level Transparent. Their XLR's start expensive though comparatively. Try a set of Anticable, you can have a return. Or, buy from one of the internet retailers that allow returns.

Most people here on AR have at least tried something that resulted in a difference and have moved on from your ridiculous position.

[Feanor]

Feanor, all you know is you heard no difference between those two brands, to take that small piece of information and make such a blanket statement is gross exaggeration. The fact is you've yet to spend any money on a cable of quality. If there's no difference why use BJC over the cheezy free cables? Why not try a cable you can return if you hear no difference? I think you are afraid that you might, hear a difference.

The "placebo effect" is a myth, especially how you apply it. If the majority of public, and smaller fraction being audiophiles, can't think for themselves then there's no hope for us and we'd just buy anything and everything, which to my observation is not the case.

I guarantee you if your hearing ability is there you can tell a difference between the BJC and entry level Transparent. Their XLR's start expensive though comparatively. Try a set of Anticable, you can have a return. Or, buy from one of the internet retailers that allow returns.

Most people here on AR have at least tried something that resulted in a difference and have moved on from your ridiculous position.

Mr P, I hope you don't take my remarks personally, and yes indeed, your hearing possibly better than mine. I'm an old guy and have limitations in my high frequency hearing.

I have heard many different interconnects and quite a few different speaker cables, mostly low to medium in price, (not very cheap or "cheezy"). They have all sounded practically the same. When I say "practically" that doesn't mean that after A>B'ing for hours I didn't think I heard some extremely fine difference -- though most often I have not.

You mention Transparent cables: they are poor examples to prove your point. All or most of Transparent's ICs employ Zobel networks, i.e. they are not "straight wires". (Same must be said for MIT cables and some others.) They are designed to modify the electrical signal, and accordingly they will sound different.

Audio components obviously differ in the sound differences they deliver.

Large differences from speakers, (obviously), and say, phono cartridges
Moderate but quite significant differences from major active components: amps, preamps, disc players, DACs
Small but still often significant differences from, say, vacuum tubes and maybe turntables
Very small but not necessarily negligible differences from, say, opamps, capacitors, or other constituent components
Moderate to neglibible, (a wide range), depending on circumstances from RFI/EMI filters and isolation devices
Exceedingly fine differences, typically (i.e. excluding very cheap, faulty, or poorly designe examples), from ICs, speaker cables, and power cords


In the realm of fine differences I think it is quite common for audiophiles to imagine differences that just aren't there (or are sub-sensory). That includes me -- I have thought I've heard differences only to try again later to discover I couldn't hear them anymore.

It amazes me to hear you my "placebo" comment ridiculous. Surely you don't deny that some audiophiles, some of the time, in case of fine differences, only imagine differences they think they hear. If you do deny it, I think you should try from Machina Dynamica, HERE (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm), e.g. "Codename Blue Meanies (http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina47.htm)".

9621

[blackraven]

Those "Meanies" are the funniest piece of Bull $hit that I have ever seen!

I figured that I would not hear a difference with the Cardas Adapters and I figured that I can get about $80 back if I sell them. BAT recommended high end adapters, they use to sell some. I was skeptical and I was right. If any thing, they will not corrode and they are shorter than the cheap ones and allow my IC's to plug straight in without any bends as with the cheap ones.

I have how ever heard differences in some cables. My AQ Coral IC's had a slightly warmer sound than the BJC's and they were less sibilant. The Tara Labs RSC's when placed in my main system were way too bright. My Monster M1000 and M950's sound like my BJC's. My Silnote IC's sound a bit warmer than the BJC's. And my Virtue Audio cables are junk.

I do expect the Cardas Parsec's to have improved sound based on user reviews. It seems that the reviews on Cardas cables are that they all lean to the warmer side without losing detail.

[blackraven]

Arnoldys, I am not sure that I get your point. If you are posting about DAC's, my current DAC would blow those out of the water. It was a $1600 hybrid tube-solid state dac and sounds great. The DAC's that I am looking at are in the $3,000 to $4000 range. I will look for a used one.

[Feanor]

I have how ever heard differences in some cables. My AQ Coral IC's had a slightly warmer sound than the BJC's and they were less sibilant. The Tara Labs RSC's when placed in my main system were way too bright. My Monster M1000 and M950's sound like my BJC's. My Silnote IC's sound a bit warmer than the BJC's. And my Virtue Audio cables are junk.

I do expect the Cardas Parsec's to have improved sound based on user reviews. It seems that the reviews on Cardas cables are that they all lean to the warmer side without losing detail.
On a certain budget deluxe cables might be worth looking into. As I mentioned, some brands are designed to sound "different" and so plausibly will sound different. If you have, say, a $3000+ preamp connecting to a $3000+ amp, spending a few hundred for hundred on I/Cs to get even a subtle change could be worth it -- the big problem that remains is finding the exactly right I/C: the great advice is to make sure you can return them or resell them without too much loss.

My advice remains the same: if you have low to upper mid-range equipment, it's wisest to invest your money in improving other components rather than spending it on expensive cables. The 4 foot XLR Cardas Parec that I would need are $450 at Audio Advisor; to be blunt, I have better uses for $450, whether on hi-fi equipment or many other things.

[Jack in Wilmington]

On a certain budget deluxe cables might be worth looking into. As I mentioned, some brands are designed to sound "different" and so plausibly will sound different. If you have, say, a $3000+ preamp connecting to a $3000+ amp, spending a few hundred for hundred on I/Cs to get even a subtle change could be worth it -- the big problem that remains is finding the exactly right I/C: the great advice is to make sure you can return them or resell them without too much loss.

My advice remains the same: if you have low to upper mid-range equipment, it's wisest to invest your money in improving other components rather than spending it on expensive cables. The 4 foot XLR Cardas Parec that I would need are $450 at Audio Advisor; to be blunt, I have better uses for $450, whether on hi-fi equipment or many other things.

I did see a pair on Audiogon this morning for $315. I'll need another pair of XLRs when I get my preamp and these are on the list to check out.

[blackraven]

I found a pair of 1 meter Parsec's for $250 which is about my limit for Cables.

Here is a user review-

I am in the process of switching from mostly Kimber to almost all Cardas Parsec.
Reading the blurb about the Parsec i thought 'clarity with a bit of Cardas warmth'? Yes exactly what i want for my slightly lean system. (mainly caused by my power conditioners.. My craving clarity has it's price)
I bought one 1 meter Cardas Parsec from The Cable Co to try it out... and immediately liked it. (the wire I had in that position I thought was good, now clearly sounded like crap.) So it goes.

The improvements are worth the cost, IMO anyway. So far the savings of going to The Cable Co (including trade ins of some of my old cables, has been $1000.(compared to if I paid list at a local dealer.. of which I have no local Cardas dealer FWIW) i spent cash $1,850, so far. Maybe another $900 spent (3x 1m sets more) to really finish the job. Two installed with three sets of the Parsec are on their way.. Like I wrote, this is a new passion.
The Parsec take a long time to get to sound wonderful as compared to merely good.. 300 plus hours. So that is annoying.. But the rewards are worth the effort. I bought one used Cardas Golden Reference, and I have one Neutral Reference.. The 'tone control' side of the equation. After I get the seven meter pre to amp in and burned in, (My biggest cost) I will experiment to finess the sound with the two Reference wires.

My old cable flame was Kimber. I had some KCAG, some PBJ, some hero.. no more. they are all superceeded by the Parsec. Light Years...LOL. Kinber was pretty neutral, especially the Hero.great wires.... Have to say i enjoyed the cables for many years.. The new Parsec just crushes my old stuff though At least for me. I always had respect for Cardas, just wanted the clarity of kimber more. Now Cardas has certainly moved into the 'Clear' arena.

One other wire i own are old Mark Levinson wires.. Bought the $2 ft raw wire back in the early 1980s.. Reterminated it with vampire 'Tiffany' style RCA a few years ago (the original RCA on those wires were Radio Shack gold plated RCA.. How times have changed, and me too) . Nice stuff i still use now and them.

I have always written about having restraint in spending on wires.. Ten percent.. Blah blah.. Well My new expenditure is not too bad considering the total cost of my stuff. If I can sell off a few more of my old wires i would be only near 6% of total. (if I add in the Golden Reference i just bought on a whim, because the price was right plus I was certain it was not a counterfeit, it moves the percentage to over 7%) With my powercord cost included, it still all is near the 10% range. So I am happy on that front too.

PS: Steves 'neutral, detailed ,romantic comment in the header to this series.... All three on the Parsec. Which I why i am going crazy buying a full set.

[frenchmon]

I'm not surprised that you don't hear any difference between deluxe Cardas adaptors and the cheaper one. Hate to say it, but I'm not surprised that your BAT contact recommended the Cardas -- audiophile industry representatives & reviews tend to recommend the more expensive stuff. I wonder why that would be?

I recent suckered myself into buying a pair of 4', cryo-treated Neotech NEI-3004 XLR's from Take Five Audio. They were to replace a 7' pair of Belden 1800F from Blue Jeans Cable. The Take Five Neotech's aren't super expensive but did cost about 2x the Blue Jeans Belden. There is absolutely no difference in sound that I can detect.

My advice was and is don't spend money on high-end cables. The sound differences will be extremely small if not imaginary -- unfortunately we can't minimize the placebo effect on audiophiles.

Feanor....didn't you say you have hearing loss? Also, don't know what gear you have other than the Pass, but every component in a system has to be able to pass on these little nuances with no problem. My Rotel gear which was ok mid fi gear would not pass on the detail from more upscale cables.

[frenchmon]

On a certain budget deluxe cables might be worth looking into. As I mentioned, some brands are designed to sound "different" and so plausibly will sound different. If you have, say, a $3000+ preamp connecting to a $3000+ amp, spending a few hundred for hundred on I/Cs to get even a subtle change could be worth it -- the big problem that remains is finding the exactly right I/C: the great advice is to make sure you can return them or resell them without too much loss.

My advice remains the same: if you have low to upper mid-range equipment, it's wisest to invest your money in improving other components rather than spending it on expensive cables. The 4 foot XLR Cardas Parec that I would need are $450 at Audio Advisor; to be blunt, I have better uses for $450, whether on hi-fi equipment or many other things.

Feanor....most mid fi gear wont pass the greater detail that a hi end cable will. The best way to listen to cables is to call "The Cable Company" and borrow cables to try in your system. All they charge is 5% and you can apply that to any purchase any time. And they have new as well as used cables. They have just about every cable...if they are not listed, do a search or just call them up. High End audio, Video & speaker cables from The Cable company (http://www.thecableco.com/default.aspx)

[frenchmon]

I found a pair of 1 meter Parsec's for $250 which is about my limit for Cables.

Here is a user review-

I am in the process of switching from mostly Kimber to almost all Cardas Parsec.
Reading the blurb about the Parsec i thought 'clarity with a bit of Cardas warmth'? Yes exactly what i want for my slightly lean system. (mainly caused by my power conditioners.. My craving clarity has it's price)
I bought one 1 meter Cardas Parsec from The Cable Co to try it out... and immediately liked it. (the wire I had in that position I thought was good, now clearly sounded like crap.) So it goes.

The improvements are worth the cost, IMO anyway. So far the savings of going to The Cable Co (including trade ins of some of my old cables, has been $1000.(compared to if I paid list at a local dealer.. of which I have no local Cardas dealer FWIW) i spent cash $1,850, so far. Maybe another $900 spent (3x 1m sets more) to really finish the job. Two installed with three sets of the Parsec are on their way.. Like I wrote, this is a new passion.
The Parsec take a long time to get to sound wonderful as compared to merely good.. 300 plus hours. So that is annoying.. But the rewards are worth the effort. I bought one used Cardas Golden Reference, and I have one Neutral Reference.. The 'tone control' side of the equation. After I get the seven meter pre to amp in and burned in, (My biggest cost) I will experiment to finess the sound with the two Reference wires.

My old cable flame was Kimber. I had some KCAG, some PBJ, some hero.. no more. they are all superceeded by the Parsec. Light Years...LOL. Kinber was pretty neutral, especially the Hero.great wires.... Have to say i enjoyed the cables for many years.. The new Parsec just crushes my old stuff though At least for me. I always had respect for Cardas, just wanted the clarity of kimber more. Now Cardas has certainly moved into the 'Clear' arena.

One other wire i own are old Mark Levinson wires.. Bought the $2 ft raw wire back in the early 1980s.. Reterminated it with vampire 'Tiffany' style RCA a few years ago (the original RCA on those wires were Radio Shack gold plated RCA.. How times have changed, and me too) . Nice stuff i still use now and them.

I have always written about having restraint in spending on wires.. Ten percent.. Blah blah.. Well My new expenditure is not too bad considering the total cost of my stuff. If I can sell off a few more of my old wires i would be only near 6% of total. (if I add in the Golden Reference i just bought on a whim, because the price was right plus I was certain it was not a counterfeit, it moves the percentage to over 7%) With my powercord cost included, it still all is near the 10% range. So I am happy on that front too.

PS: Steves 'neutral, detailed ,romantic comment in the header to this series.... All three on the Parsec. Which I why i am going crazy buying a full set.

Raven...I hear ya loud and clear! Good job!

[Jack in Wilmington]

Feanor....didn't you say you have hearing loss? Also, don't know what gear you have other than the Pass, but every component in a system has to be able to pass on these little nuances with no problem. My Rotel gear which was ok mid fi gear would not pass on the detail from more upscale cables.

Frenchie, Feanor has a link at the bottom of all his posts to "Feanor's Stereo Configuration" it's a really nice breakdown in a ladder diagram ( I think it's called ) form. I wish I could do that.

[Feanor]

Feanor....most mid fi gear wont pass the greater detail that a hi end cable will. The best way to listen to cables is to call "The Cable Company" and borrow cables to try in your system. All they charge is 5% and you can apply that to any purchase any time. And they have new as well as used cables. They have just about every cable...if they are not listed, do a search or just call them up. High End audio, Video & speaker cables from The Cable company (http://www.thecableco.com/default.aspx)
Frenchie, thanks for the suggestion about the Cable Company; it sounds like a great idea I'd try but I'm located in Canada and our Canada Customs department is very ruthless about collection duties and taxes. The fact that you have every intention of sending borrowed items back to country of origin doesn't impress them.

[Feanor]

Feanor....didn't you say you have hearing loss? Also, don't know what gear you have other than the Pass, but every component in a system has to be able to pass on these little nuances with no problem. My Rotel gear which was ok mid fi gear would not pass on the detail from more upscale cables.

Yes, I have an almost complete loss above 10kHz, i.e. I'm deaf to the top octave. Presumably this does affect my ability to hear high frequency nuances. On the other hand, I was recently able to hear differences between my new Schiit Audio DAC and my previous, SMSL DAC. In fact I was able to hear difference between different opamps in the SMSL where those opamps were strongly different in character, i.e. OPA627 vs. LME49720. And of course, I hear relatively huge difference among the three amps I have around at the moment: Forte Model 5, Class D Audio SDS-258, and Pass Labs X150.5.

I should emphasize that I've never said there ARE NO differences in sound among cables; (various people have said that but not me). I'm just saying among the low to mid-priced cables I've tried, neither ICs, digital cables, speaker cables, nor power cords, have I noticed any differences. My listening strategy is simple: after listening for a few hours I either notice a difference with a new component or I do not. I rarely go in for intensive A-B sessions that might drive out minute differences.

However the other thing I'm sticking with, condemn me if you will, is some fine differences heard by some audiophiles, (present company excepted of course), are imaginary.

If you and others hear cable differences I say, sincerely, good for you. My consolation is that I save a fair bit of money -- which ain't such a bad thing.

My equipment, depending on your definitions, on the border line between upper mid-range and lower high-end. You can see my configuration following the link in my signature, below.

[bluetrain]

Congrats, BR! You've got one very competent device there.

How's your impressions so far?

[blackraven]

Congrats, BR! You've got one very competent device there.

How's your impressions so far?

I could not be any happier with the BAT. It is exactly as reviewed in the link below. Its level of realism is astonishing. It is not overly tubey and it is detailed, revealing and dynamic. Its imaging and sound stage is fantastic. But what really impresses me is the front to back depth and musicality of the preamp. The most expensive preamps that I have heard are the $8500 ARC LS27 and a $15,000 plus Ayre preamp and they don't compare in the depth and musicality to the BAT. Of course that could be because they were hooked up to different amps and DAC's.

Balanced Audio Technology VK-51SE line preamplifier | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/tubepreamps/1103bat)

[bluetrain]

I could not be any happier with the BAT. It is exactly as reviewed in the link below. Its level of realism is astonishing. It is not overly tubey and it is detailed, revealing and dynamic. Its imaging and sound stage is fantastic. But what really impresses me is the front to back depth and musicality of the preamp. The most expensive preamps that I have heard are the $8500 ARC LS27 and a $15,000 plus Ayre preamp and they don't compare in the depth and musicality to the BAT. Of course that could be because they were hooked up to different amps and DAC's.

Glad to hear that, man. You describe my exact feelings, even though I don't have that particular BAT. Great, really great brand. Does everything just right. Makes you love it. Last week I got also 255Se, which is breaking- in as I type, and I feel happy. Now I can sell my A 21 without regrets.
You need to get better wires, IMO.

enjoy!

[blackraven]

BT, you have some nice gear there. I also have an A21 which was replaced by my Pass amp. I was going to sell the A21 but my wife convinced me to give it to my 22y/o son who is a budding audiophile.

I am going to get a pair of Cardas Parsec XLR's.