McIntosh preamp?

[blackraven]

I am considering buying a McIntosh C2200 preamp. Does any one know any thing about the sound?

Thanks!

[frenchmon]

I am considering buying a McIntosh C2200 preamp. Does any one know any thing about the sound?

Thanks!

I've read that preamp was very good.....very quiet with a very neutral sound. Might be what you need. I am one that happends to like McIntosh...some say they are too warm....I find them very musical,

[blackraven]

Here is a great review on the C2200. The reviewer does not call the preamp warm but he says it is neutral. I like the fact that it has tone controls which can be taken out of the loop. It may not be the last word in resolution but it may be what I am looking for. I had a bid on a CJ ET-3se but the guy would never respond to me on audiogon.


http://akdatabase.org/AKview/albums/userpics/10004/C2200%20Review.PDF


I was a bit concerned about the output impedance being 500 ohms but I called Pass Labs and they said the X250 would be fine with an impedance up to 1K.

[TheHills44060]

The C2200 is great. Easy setup, very quiet and I like the flexibility of being able to play around with different tubes. The tone controls w/defeat are extremely handy and could not do without them. Having 2 outputs is super for adding a subwoofer although it would be such a bonus to have a crossover for the main output and limit low frequencies to the main speakers but I realize that's rare for a stereo preamp. It does have the older style remote control which is fine but the following generation feels much better in the hand. Also I don't know why in the hell they went with the tiny 1/8" headphone jack instead of 1/4", this choice really chafes my ass to no end! Just mentioning it gets me irritated. Overall a great unit and I bet they can be had for a pretty reasonable price these days.

[frenchmon]

Raven..why dont you go and get this? You will be in heaven I can assure you!

Vincent - SA-T8 Symmetrical hybrid stereo preamplifier - Vincent-tac (http://www.vincent-tac.de/en/product-types/preamplifiers/sa-t8.html)


Vincent - SA-T8 - Tube Hybrid Stereo Preamp-Audio Advisor (http://www.audioadvisor.com/Vincent-SA-T8-Tube-Hybrid-Stereo-Preamp/productinfo/VISAT8/#.UufAPBDnaCg)


TAS 188: Vincent Audio SA-T8 Preamplifier & SP-T800 Monoblock Amplifier | The Absolute Sound (http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/tas-188-vincent-audio-sa-t8-preamplifier-sp-t800-monoblock-amplifier/)



And the story gets even better with the SA-T8 line preamp. It made a very positive first impression with its precise and speedy transient reproduction, pure midrange textures, and rhythmic drive. I did initially note a bit of grain and assertive brightness through the upper registers, but as the preamp settled in after several hours of break-in the rough edges essentially disappeared. The lower treble, however, remained a bit coarser texturally relative to the midrange. Despite the fact that this is an all-tube preamp, its presentation was both direct and broadband in nature. No deficiencies were noted as far as treble roll-off or bass extension. And most remarkable of all, it evinced a velvety black background, which allowed the music’s harmonic tapestry to unfold with crystalline purity.

[TheHills44060]

Raven..why dont you go and get this? You will be in heaven I can assure you!
$2,500.00 for a featureless bare bones chinese preamp....eh, not so sure. Now used for let's say 1k then worth a shot.

[frenchmon]

Oh, you dont have to be sure....I am! And your not Raven.

Dont you have Castle Speakers?

[TheHills44060]

Oh, you dont have to be sure....I am! And your not Raven.

Dont you have Castle Speakers?

I do have Castle speakers (not sure how that relates to a preamp) and what's your problem with others posting in this thread? If you asked for opinions on a piece of gear you were considering buying wouldn't you want to hear as many comments as possible both good and bad?

Minimalistic preamps have their place for sure but my point was the Vincent seems like a complete rip job at that price regardless how it may sound.

[frenchmon]

I do have Castle speakers (not sure how that relates to a preamp)

Made in China....just like those Swan speakers you had/have.


and what's your problem with others posting in this thread? If you asked for opinions on a piece of gear you were considering buying wouldn't you want to hear as many comments as possible both good and bad?

Dont have any problems with peps posting in thread...but you where rude, when you didnt have to be.


Minimalistic preamps have their place for sure but my point was the Vincent seems like a complete rip job at that price regardless how it may sound.

Naw...not a rip at all...I own amp/preamp...the pair $4300.00 retail, and its very much under priced.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon,

I have considered the Vincent and it appears to be a great preamp from the reviews. I have always admired their gear and if I was starting from scratch I would probably go with them as they are a company that is a lot of bang for the buck with tube gear. But I think that I will get the most bang for the buck going used. I really wanted the CJ ET-3se (which is only slightly warm and not syrupy) but the guy on Agon was a dealer and would not respond to me. I think he sold it privately.

As far as the Mac goes, I just happened upon a C2200 that has only 150 hrs on it. The Vincent may be comparable in sound for all I know. I have heard mixed reviews on the tonal quality of the 2200. The reviews say it is neutral and some people say it is warm.
The same can be said for BAT VK-51se that I am looking at. Warmer is what I want but not overly warm. The Vincent would probably give me what I want but I want a preamp that sold for $4K and above. There is definitely diminishing returns on the sound as you get above $3K but it is noticeable.

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.

[TheHills44060]

Made in China....just like those Swan speakers you had/have.
Please get your facts straight. Castle speakers are now made in China (since 2010-ish so don't quote me) but they were manufactured in England for years and years. I bought mine in 2001 and wouldn't touch any of the new chinese Castle variants. There is no comparison between the two.

The Swans are indeed chinese but they also happen to be super inexpensive and a value to my ears. I wouldn't recommend them for full time duty but for my application in a second system with sub they are just what the doctor ordered. I didn't want to make much of an investment.


Dont have any problems with peps posting in thread...but you where rude, when you didnt have to be.
How was I rude? I said my opinion was that it was overpriced for what you get and a much lower used price would be more inline.

Now it's blatantly obvious you took offense to the me stating the Vincent was chinese made and you happen to own one. Not sure why that would bother you but don't worry you don't need to explain.


Naw...not a rip at all...I own amp/preamp...the pair $4300.00 retail, and its very much under priced.
That's fine and dandy. The more options for Raven the merrier and I have always enjoyed reading your posts but in the meantime don't take things so personally when someone puts in their 2 cents also. It's all good here, sheesh.

Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.

[TheHills44060]

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.
Agreed 100%. The tone controls are absolutely invaluable in my experience. Heck even the balance knob is useful.

[blackraven]

Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.


What Mac did you have and what tubes did you like? I am only familiar with all the 6CG7's, 6N1P's, 6DJ8's and 396A's. The Mac's use different tubes.

[TheHills44060]

What Mac did you have and what tubes did you like? I am only familiar with all the 6CG7's, 6N1P's, 6DJ8's and 396A's. The Mac's use different tubes.
I currently own the C220 preamp but I had both the C2200 and C2300 in my own system for a while so I got to dabble quite a bit. First I tried Electo-Harmonix because they were a friend's leftovers. Oddly I didn't hear much of a difference at all which made me paranoid because I thought I must be missing something. It was my first tube swap so naturally i was bummed out.

Next I tried some Ruby's that came from from a guitar amp and my first impression was that they hissed a lot more than I liked. Good crunch but I couldn't get over the background noise. Not sure if that was due to the fact that they were burned hot in the amp but nevertheless I was turned off.

I borrowed some Svetlana's which I really liked but in the end I ended up with Gold Lions. I love a warm sound but these tubes gave me the best of both worlds and kept me from diving into the overly warm pool which I tend to do sometimes.

EDIT: I never did get a chance to try Tung-Sol's which I have heard some favor in the Mac preamps.

[blackraven]

Was the C2200 detailed? Did it have good air, sound stage and transparency? Was it warm or more neutral? How as the midrange?

Thanks!

[TheHills44060]

Was the C2200 detailed? Did it have good air, sound stage and transparency? Was it warm or more neutral? How as the midrange?

Let me address air and sound stage first. The best I can describe is that I wasn't hearing a big wall of sound crashing on top of me but instead I felt like was surrounded by music in different locations on different planes yet everything melded together without being mushed together into a conglomeration. The air was there because if I chose to I could easily focus on a particular instrument and analyze it then break my concentration and enjoy the piece as a whole. Not sure if that makes any sense but it's the only way I can explain it without resorting to all useless reviewer adjectives and terminology.

Now as far as warmth vs detail that's a more slippery slope. My preference is for warmth over detail and i think I'd rate every piece of gear in my system from source to speakers to be on the warm side. What I can say is when I inserted the C2200 into the mix I didn't I feel like I turned my listening room into a quiet ski cabin with thick area rugs, giant tapestries and furry elk heads on the wall which rob high frequencies. You mentioned tone controls for taming sibilance, well the same cd's where I needed to turn down the treble with other preamps I still needed to do so with the C2200. Based on this I think it's has some pretty darn neutral qualities but since nothing is absolutely neutral I'd say a tick on the warm side.

I have used various Rotel, Adcom, Onkyo Integra, Creek, Bryston preamps in my system in the same room and the C2200 was my favorite.

[Hyfi]

The C2200 is great. Easy setup, very quiet and I like the flexibility of being able to play around with different tubes. The tone controls w/defeat are extremely handy and could not do without them. Having 2 outputs is super for adding a subwoofer although it would be such a bonus to have a crossover for the main output and limit low frequencies to the main speakers but I realize that's rare for a stereo preamp. It does have the older style remote control which is fine but the following generation feels much better in the hand. Also I don't know why in the hell they went with the tiny 1/8" headphone jack instead of 1/4", this choice really chafes my ass to no end! Just mentioning it gets me irritated. Overall a great unit and I bet they can be had for a pretty reasonable price these days.

I was just reading reviews on the latest big Rotel units and the same complaint from owners there about the 1/8 Headphone jack. It would seem that MFGs think that everybody uses cheesy ear buds or they save $0.50 on each unit by using the 1/8 in place of the 1/4 jack. Either way, that sucks.

[blackraven]

Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.

[TheHills44060]

I was just reading reviews on the latest big Rotel units and the same complaint from owners there about the 1/8 Headphone jack. It would seem that MFGs think that everybody uses cheesy ear buds or they save $0.50 on each unit by using the 1/8 in place of the 1/4 jack. Either way, that sucks.
Wow what a sad trend. Even if for some ungodly reason I wanted to use 1/8 plug walkman headphones with a nice stereo preamp I'd still rather use a 1/8 to 1/4 adapter just for the snug connection and piece of mind. I'm always worried about that little plug snapping off.


Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.
No problemo. I wish I had heard the X1 before so i could give you a precise A to B comparison but I've never known anyone with a Pass preamp however I think your gut feeling is on track. I agree that from the reputations of both companies one would think you may lose some of that initial Pass excitement and pop but gain some long term emotion and enjoyment with the C2200.

As embarrassing as it sounds the glow of the Mac really does have a soothing effect. It would be strange for me not to see the blue and green hue cast onto the floor and walls in my listening room anymore.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon,

I have considered the Vincent and it appears to be a great preamp from the reviews. I have always admired their gear and if I was starting from scratch I would probably go with them as they are a company that is a lot of bang for the buck with tube gear. But I think that I will get the most bang for the buck going used. I really wanted the CJ ET-3se (which is only slightly warm and not syrupy) but the guy on Agon was a dealer and would not respond to me. I think he sold it privately.

As far as the Mac goes, I just happened upon a C2200 that has only 150 hrs on it. The Vincent may be comparable in sound for all I know. I have heard mixed reviews on the tonal quality of the 2200. The reviews say it is neutral and some people say it is warm.
The same can be said for BAT VK-51se that I am looking at. Warmer is what I want but not overly warm. The Vincent would probably give me what I want but I want a preamp that sold for $4K and above. There is definitely diminishing returns on the sound as you get above $3K but it is noticeable.

One thing that I like about the C2200 is tone controls. It would certainly help with some of my Cd's that are overly bright or sibilant.

Raven...I understand. Every mac I've heard was not overly warm. But as you know, one mans warm, is not the same as that other mans warm, so you may have to take a chance, have a listen to one, or go with some ones ears you trust. Right now the only person we know who has heard it is TheHill$4406. So you may have to go off his ears.

[frenchmon]

Please get your facts straight. Castle speakers are now made in China (since 2010-ish so don't quote me) but they were manufactured in England for years and years. I bought mine in 2001 and wouldn't touch any of the new chinese Castle variants. There is no comparison between the two.

Ok...good for you.


The Swans are indeed chinese but they also happen to be super inexpensive and a value to my ears. I wouldn't recommend them for full time duty but for my application in a second system with sub they are just what the doctor ordered. I didn't want to make much of an investment.

Also...good for you.



How was I rude? I said my opinion was that it was overpriced for what you get and a much lower used price would be more inline.

Ok...thats your opinion...I don't share that.


Now it's blatantly obvious you took offense to the me stating the Vincent was chinese made and you happen to own one. Not sure why that would bother you but don't worry you don't need to explain.

Its not a secret its Chinese made...infact at the ShengYa factory. German owned and designed in Germany and built at ShengYa factory for cost. I would hope you understand some great products come out of China...its a global market you know.



That's fine and dandy. The more options for Raven the merrier and I have always enjoyed reading your posts but in the meantime don't take things so personally when someone puts in their 2 cents also. It's all good here, sheesh.

Perhaps I took offense of you saying its over priced when infact I know they are under priced. Not that I want them to raise prices, but thats the reason they went to China....cost. Perhaps I read a negative tone when I should not have.




Oh and raven i did experiment with the swapping tubes and the changes are evident when compared to the stock tubes. Sometimes better and sometimes just different. I didn't have any particular issues with the Mac tubes but I wanted to tinker. I think you have more experience than me in that area so I'm sure you already have your favs.

[frenchmon]

Agreed 100%. The tone controls are absolutely invaluable in my experience. Heck even the balance knob is useful.

I have tone controls on my SA-T1 and never have to use them. I find the Telefunken, Valvo, and Kobe TEN tubes give all my music a neutral sound that is never to bright and I never hear any sibilant. Now with Gold Lion tubes its a different story.

[frenchmon]

I currently own the C220 preamp but I had both the C2200 and C2300 in my own system for a while so I got to dabble quite a bit. First I tried Electo-Harmonix because they were a friend's leftovers. Oddly I didn't hear much of a difference at all which made me paranoid because I thought I must be missing something. It was my first tube swap so naturally i was bummed out.

Next I tried some Ruby's that came from from a guitar amp and my first impression was that they hissed a lot more than I liked. Good crunch but I couldn't get over the background noise. Not sure if that was due to the fact that they were burned hot in the amp but nevertheless I was turned off.

I borrowed some Svetlana's which I really liked but in the end I ended up with Gold Lions. I love a warm sound but these tubes gave me the best of both worlds and kept me from diving into the overly warm pool which I tend to do sometimes.

EDIT: I never did get a chance to try Tung-Sol's which I have heard some favor in the Mac preamps.

In my system the Gold Lion where leaning towards more of a lively presentation pared with NOS Telefunken than I cared for in my preamp. And Mullards/Telefunken where great until I put the NOS Valvo tubes in the amp. Those Valvos are great! I am now waiting a set of Tungsram NOS.

Raven...what tubes are in the McIntosh?

[frenchmon]

Thanks Hills! I am at the point that sacrificing a smidge of detail for the overall sound is worth it. I really like my X1 preamp but it is definitely missing some emotion to the music. The Mac is probably not as detailed or transparent but it sounds like it will fit the bill. It has XLR, tone controls, tubes and great reviews and heritage. It was an Stereophile class A component for what ever that is worth. And its lovely worthless blue meters.

Raven..are you still missing some mid range texture with the X1?

[frenchmon]

Raven...heres more for your consideration.

Aesthetix Calypso - Upscale Audio (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/aesthetix-calypso/)

Atma-Sphere MP-3 Mk II.3 with Phono & Teflon cap upgrade! - Upscale Audio (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/atma-sphere-mp-3-mk-ii-3-with-phono-teflon-cap-upgrade/)

Cary Audio SLP 98L Formula One with HT Bypass! - Upscale Audio (http://www.upscaleaudio.com/products/Cary-Audio-SLP-98L-Formula-One-with-HT-Bypass%21.html)

[blackraven]

Yes, the X1 is a little thin in the midrange. That Atma Sphere preamp looks like a great deal and it is enticing. I have looked a an MP-3 pre before. But it has no remote which is a deal breaker because I an too lazy to get up and change the volume after a long day at work. It also has only one pair of outputs and no sub out.

I am going to go over to my local Mac dealer later today and give a listen to some of their preamps to help me decide on the C2200.

[frenchmon]

Sounds good. You know, the right cable could do it for you. A nice reference cable, one that is above a hi fi-ish sounding cable....more a reference cable that has lots of texture and refined, strong in the mids could give you texture that is missing. In some cases its not that the gear doesnt have it, but the cable is not good enough to pass it.

[bluetrain]

BR, try to audition the BAT vk-42se pre. It's an outstanding piece, even though it is solid state. It absolutely changed my perspective on ss preamps. My A21 9597 sounds unrecognizable. In a word it's terrific.

That CJ pre you mentioned is pretty average, imo.

[blackraven]

BR, try to audition the BAT vk-42se pre. It's an outstanding piece, even though it is solid state. It absolutely changed my perspective on ss preamps. My A21 9597 sounds unrecognizable. In a word it's terrific.

That CJ pre you mentioned is pretty average, imo.


If I go with a BAT it will be tubed. Probably a VK-51se. I just listened to an ARC LS 27, an Atma-Spere MP3 and a Mac C220 all on an Ayre power amp Ayre evolution CD player Magnepan 3.7i's and 1.7's. The Mac sounded hifi while the other 2 were audiophile. The ARC was dark and tubey sounding but with great detail, air and transparency. The MP3 was the best sounding, it had more of a neutral tone almost SS but with tube warmth and a more full, textured midrange. Highs were probably a little rolled of as I brought a sibilant sounding CD and the MP-3 tamed it but on other passages the treble did not seem rolled or recessed. The Mac tamed it as well with use of the tone controls (i wish all gear had them as I could not tell the difference when the tone controls were defeated). The ARC did not help the Sibilant sound at all.

The MP3 is high on my list but the freaking remote control option is $950. It has only 1 set of speaker outputs but you can add a second set for $75. Also the volume control is stepped and clunky. But the sound was truly amazing. The best preamp that I have heard. It actually sounded some what similar to my Pass X1 but with a more textured and lush midrange.

Tomorrow I am going back to my local shop and I am going to bring my preamp and DAC to compare to the MP3.

By the way, I was surprized at the dark tubey sound of the ARC. Most people say just the opposite about ARC gear. I could live with the ARC but it was out classed by the lower priced Atma Sphere.

If any one is interested the 3.7i's sounded great. They have a slightly warmer darker sound than the 1.7's with more detail and a much smoother sound.

[frenchmon]

Raven...that's good news! The ARC may have had darker sounding tubes. They usually have a more lively open sound.

So the MAc was hifi sounding? When was production of tha amp? Man tha Atmasphere would be a great statement piece of gear! I hope it works out for you....man I don't think I could ever live with a SS amp again. I mean Last time I was at Peabodys house, his system was sounding amazing....but man you gotta have that tube texture.

Atma-Sphere music systems, inc. (http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#MP-3)

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, the ARC had stock tubes. I have to say that I was not impressed with the Ayre power amp. It did not have the musicality or bass slam of my Pass.

The amp was an $8000 VX-5 and it was way out classed by the Pass in every way.

Ayre Acoustics VX-5 (http://www.ayre.com/vx5.htm)

[Jack in Wilmington]

Raven...that's good news! The ARC may have had darker sounding tubes. They usually have a more lively open sound.

So the MAc was hifi sounding? When was production of tha amp? Man tha Atmasphere would be a great statement piece of gear! I hope it works out for you....man I don't think I could ever live with a SS amp again. I mean Last time I was at Peabodys house, his system was sounding amazing....but man you gotta have that tube texture.

Atma-Sphere music systems, inc. (http://www.atma-sphere.com/Products/#MP-3)

Frenchy Mr. P's amp is SS or isn't that what you meant. You said you don't think you could live with SS amp and then you said his system sounded amazing.

I'm not familiar with Atma-Sphere but $950 for a remote is insane.

[blackraven]

Bluetrain, you found the CJ ET-3se ordinary? In what way? Every review and person that I have corresponded with feel that it is an outstanding preamp. What don't you like about it?

Thanks,

Larry

[Feanor]

Frenchmon, the ARC had stock tubes. I have to say that I was not impressed with the Ayre power amp. It did not have the musicality or bass slam of my Pass.

The amp was an $8000 VX-5 and it was way out classed by the Pass in every way.

Ayre Acoustics VX-5 (http://www.ayre.com/vx5.htm)
I am interest by your impression of Ayre VX-5 since Ayre would be one of very few brands I would ever consider next to Pass Labs. Your impression make me more content with my X150.5.

I was also interest in you preamp comparison. Since I value air & transparency higher above "texture" the ARC LS27 might be my choice of those you auditioned. I have an LS9 which, of course, is solid state: if I were disposed to go for a tube pre I might consider an LS16 or LS17 since the the '27 would be 'way out of my range.

Regarding the original topic I wouldn't mind hearing the MAC but there are probably better sounding preamps for money -- though the C220 has tone controls, phono, and balance outputs. I'd probably be happiest, though, with a Pass Labs for that kind of money, though I'm I kind spring that at the this time. BTW, though it has balanced outputs, the MAC isn't a "fully differential" design.

[frenchmon]

Frenchy Mr. P's amp is SS or isn't that what you meant. You said you don't think you could live with SS amp and then you said his system sounded amazing.

I'm not familiar with Atma-Sphere but $950 for a remote is insane.

Hi Jack!

Yes Peabodys system was clicking and sounding great, but in my opinion....the tube texture in the mids is missing and just the overall tube presence and all that comes with that are not heard.. I mean don't get me wrong, its a out standing amp and high end to the max, and refined of a sound as can be....transparent, and very well balance from top to bottom....but there's no overall tube presence. So its more of a personal thing...a preference thing.

[frenchmon]

Bluetrain, you found the CJ ET-3se ordinary? In what way? Every review and person that I have corresponded with feel that it is an outstanding preamp. What don't you like about it?

Thanks,

Larry

I think Peabody had the CJ CT5 and it was a nice preamp...I though it was to syrupy, but I also think a change of tubes would have taken much of that away. But I don't find that preamp ordinary in the least.

[frenchmon]

I am interest by your impression of Ayre VX-5 since Ayre would be one of very few brands I would ever consider next to Pass Labs. Your impression make me more content with my X150.5.

I was also interest in you preamp comparison. Since I value air & transparency higher above "texture" the ARC LS27 might be my choice of those you auditioned. I have an LS9 which, of course, is solid state: if I were disposed to go for a tube pre I might consider an LS16 or LS17 since the the '27 would be 'way out of my range.

Regarding the original topic I wouldn't mind hearing the MAC but there are probably better sounding preamps for money -- though the C220 has tone controls, phono, and balance outputs. I'd probably be happiest, though, with a Pass Labs for that kind of money, though I'm I kind spring that at the this time. BTW, though it has balanced outputs, the MAC isn't a "fully differential" design.

Feanor..a buddy of mine here in St. Louis has the LS16 and LS17 and both have lots of air & transparency!

[Feanor]

Feanor..a buddy of mine here in St. Louis has the LS16 and LS17 and both have lots of air & transparency!
Regarding these two, it's good to know other people's experience. If I'd had the cash I'd got one of those instead of the LS9 but they were both over twice what I paid for it.

[blackraven]

I would like to know how the ARC LS 26 compares to the LS 27. You see the 26 on audiogon frequently. I still would also like to hear a BAT. While I would love to have the MP-3, the extra $950 for a remote is probably a deal breaker for me. Also the stepped volume control does not allow for fine volume control. I talked to the guys at Atma Sphere and it took them 2 years of R&D to develop the motorized control which is just now being offered as an option.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi Jack!

Yes Peabodys system was clicking and sounding great, but in my opinion....the tube texture in the mids is missing and just the overall tube presence and all that comes with that are not heard.. I mean don't get me wrong, its a out standing amp and high end to the max, and refined of a sound as can be....transparent, and very well balance from top to bottom....but there's no overall tube presence. So its more of a personal thing...a preference thing.

I thought that was where you were going with your comment and didn't want anyone to misread you. I'd like to see Peabody bring home an LS27 or even a Ref 5SE and see how he likes it.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon,

the CJ ET-3se is a departure from the warm and syrupy sound. It is a hybrid unit, basically a SS with a tube buffer with a single 6922 tube. The teflon caps are what really sets this preamp apart. Even the MP-3 that I am looking at has the Teflon cap upgrades for much better sound quality. Unfortunately they need 500hrs of burn in.

[bluetrain]

Bluetrain, you found the CJ ET-3se ordinary? In what way? Every review and person that I have corresponded with feel that it is an outstanding preamp. What don't you like about it?

Thanks,

Larry

A few months ago when I was in the market for a new pre for my vk-55se, a friend of mine brought to my place his ET-3se. We did compare it to my pv15, and to be honest, we both didn't find the expected improvement, except for it had more extended highs. The mids were less ear-pleasing, and the bass was about the same. So, to me it wasn't an upgrade for sure. If I ship the pv15 to CJ factory for the teflon cap upgrade, it will sounds better and will be cheaper than ET-3se.

Keep in mind that it is just an opinion based on my listening preferences.

[Feanor]

I would like to know how the ARC LS 26 compares to the LS 27. You see the 26 on audiogon frequently. I still would also like to hear a BAT. While I would love to have the MP-3, the extra $950 for a remote is probably a deal breaker for me. Also the stepped volume control does not allow for fine volume control. I talked to the guys at Atma Sphere and it took them 2 years of R&D to develop the motorized control which is just now being offered as an option.
Not having a volume control would put any preamp ABSOLUTELY out of consideration for me. As far as I can see "2 years of R&D" to develop a motorized remote is either bull**** or bull****, (even if they mean elapsed time, not man-years). Frank Val Astine's price of $300 is more than enough for remote control, (though Frank should make r/c standard).

Stepped volume control is OK provided there are enough steps. My previous Bel Canto eVo2i and Sonic Frontiers Line 1 were stepped and now my LS9 is too: all are adequately fine. There are various kinds of stepped controls. Pretty much all are resistor arrays, some controlled by a logic chip (with some having an opamp in circuit, others not), others employ motorized "manual" selectors. The former usually have miniaturized, integrated circuit resistors make many steps practical. Mostly the latter employ discrete resistors thus tending to reduce the number of steps possible, though, some would say, make higher quality possible.

[frenchmon]

I would like to know how the ARC LS 26 compares to the LS 27. You see the 26 on audiogon frequently. I still would also like to hear a BAT. While I would love to have the MP-3, the extra $950 for a remote is probably a deal breaker for me. Also the stepped volume control does not allow for fine volume control. I talked to the guys at Atma Sphere and it took them 2 years of R&D to develop the motorized control which is just now being offered as an option.

Can you add a universal remote?

[frenchmon]

I thought that was where you were going with your comment and didn't want anyone to misread you. I'd like to see Peabody bring home an LS27 or even a Ref 5SE and see how he likes it.

Jack...you ever used your x-719 with the Pass Labs?

[blackraven]

The MP-3's volume control is not digital, it is a ladder type and it need a motor installed and it takes up 12-15hrs to install the motor so you can't use a universal remote. Apparently it took a while because they did not want any interference with the sound. The stepped control has large steps and it works well but you can't get fine control. When you turn the volume knob, it goes "thunk" into the next step (it does not make any noise but you feel the thunk).

The Van Alstine remote use to be a $200 option but it has gone up in price. It is also motorized and makes the knob turn. The remote control unit is basic and only does volume and mute. A little pricey at $300.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack...you ever used your x-719 with the Pass Labs?

Wow. That never even entered my mind. Next week I'll do that and pretend like I'm auditioning at my hifi shop. Thanks Frenchy

[Feanor]

The MP-3's volume control is not digital, it is a ladder type and it need a motor installed and it takes up 12-15hrs to install the motor so you can't use a universal remote. Apparently it took a while because they did not want any interference with the sound. The stepped control has large steps and it works well but you can't get fine control. When you turn the volume knob, it goes "thunk" into the next step (it does not make any noise but you feel the thunk).

The Van Alstine remote use to be a $200 option but it has gone up in price. It is also motorized and makes the knob turn. The remote control unit is basic and only does volume and mute. A little pricey at $300.
The MP-3's volume control is of the latter type I described, i.e. using discrete resistors. The new Ayre AX-5 has very similar design according to the Stereophile review, HERE. Of course the designs can extremely good but so can potentiometer, (such as AVA), or so-called digital designs.

"Ladder type" is a topology and can be implemented in what you refer to as "digital" in which case the digital only applies to the switching logic which, in turn, is no different than, for example, remote input selection. The difference is whether one considers discrete resistor to be potentially better than printed circuit resistors; certainly the former are more expensive, especially taking hand-fabrication in to consideration.

[blackraven]

Bluetrain, I see you have a Parasound Halo A21 there. How do you like it? I have one. I replaced it with my Pass X250 and gave the A21 to my son to use for now. I love the attack of the A21, it is much better than my Pass in that respect. The leading edge of guitar and piano is much more real, where the Pass smooths that over and many smooth or liquid sounding amps do. I miss that in the Pass and it is my only real complaint about the X250. The Ayre VX-5 that I listened to had the same problem.

[blackraven]

Feanor, if you get a chance, go listen to the new 3.7i's. They sound awesome. I would love to have a pair in my system.

[Feanor]

Feanor, if you get a chance, go listen to the new 3.7i's. They sound awesome. I would love to have a pair in my system.
I'd certainly like to hear them, but then I'd probably want them.

[bluetrain]

Bluetrain, I see you have a Parasound Halo A21 there. How do you like it? I have one. I replaced it with my Pass X250 and gave the A21 to my son to use for now. I love the attack of the A21, it is much better than my Pass in that respect. The leading edge of guitar and piano is much more real, where the Pass smooths that over and many smooth or liquid sounding amps do. I miss that in the Pass and it is my only real complaint about the X250. The Ayre VX-5 that I listened to had the same problem.

BR, I love my A21. Great amp. Very competent. Just not "audiophile politically correct" ;-)
It replaced McCormack dna225, which I had for a few months, and couldn't live with it.
You won't believe how good it sounds when connected to the BAT 42se. Unbelievable. One has to listen to believe it.
I'm thinking about getting the Bat vk255se in the near future. Should be interesting shootout.

[blackraven]

BR, I love my A21. Great amp. Very competent. Just not "audiophile politically correct" ;-)
It replaced McCormack dna225, which I had for a few months, and couldn't live with it.
You won't believe how good it sounds when connected to the BAT 42se. Unbelievable. One has to listen to believe it.
I'm thinking about getting the Bat vk255se in the near future. Should be interesting shootout.


I love my A21. It has a little grain and it is not as transparent as more expensive amps but it has gobs of power, deep and controlled bass and sweet highs. It needs a tube preamp to sound the best IMHO. I used a Van Alstine hybrid tube preamp and hybrid DAC. I am going to put it back in my main system just to hear how it sounds with an audiophile preamp-my Pass X1.

I am surprised that you preferred it over the DNA. The DNA 500 is supposed to be a killer amp

[Mr Peabody]

Jack, since you asked, we had an ARC dealer, well, we have a new one now, but I've heard a fair amount of ARC and even auditioned an amp/preamp when I owned Dyn's, before buying my CJ. This is just my own taste, I do not like ARC. I also have heard a lot of Mac and although I like it better than ARC, I would not have it in my system either.

I heard an ARC Ref Preamp some years back connected to Classe monoblocks driving the top Nautilus Diamond. Big price tag but just didn't do anything for me. In fact, I've heard B&W a lot driven by ARC and Classe amps, to Mac's credit it wasn't until I heard the big Nautilus lit up by the 1k monoblocks I gained new respect for the speaker. I had no idea the big boys could do bass like that.

I respect both lines and recommend them if some one is looking for their type of sound.

[blackraven]

Mr. P, the ARC LS 27 surprised me with its darker, warmer sound. It had great air and transparency. It was the warmest and darkest of the 3 preamps that I listened to. It may have been the pairing with the Ayre CD player and amp. The Mac certainly was not warm.

I just saw that the CJ ET-3se was put back up for sale. The guy never responded to me. I think I pissed him of with an initial low ball offer so that we could negotiate the price. The guy had best offer listed in his ad. I may rebid on it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Mr. P, the ARC LS 27 surprised me with its darker, warmer sound. It had great air and transparency. It was the warmest and darkest of the 3 preamps that I listened to. It may have been the pairing with the Ayre CD player and amp. The Mac certainly was not warm.

I just saw that the CJ ET-3se was put back up for sale. The guy never responded to me. I think I pissed him of with an initial low ball offer so that we could negotiate the price. The guy had best offer listed in his ad. I may rebid on it.

Hopefully you'll have better luck this time. Some sellers say right in their write-up that low ballers will be ignored, obviously this guy didn't. Good luck.

[frenchmon]

The MP-3's volume control is not digital, it is a ladder type and it need a motor installed and it takes up 12-15hrs to install the motor so you can't use a universal remote. Apparently it took a while because they did not want any interference with the sound. The stepped control has large steps and it works well but you can't get fine control. When you turn the volume knob, it goes "thunk" into the next step (it does not make any noise but you feel the thunk).

The Van Alstine remote use to be a $200 option but it has gone up in price. It is also motorized and makes the knob turn. The remote control unit is basic and only does volume and mute. A little pricey at $300.

Man....the remote Peabody got with his AVA was like a toy....I couldnt believe the way that remote look...it was like out of a cracker jack box...a little plastic thing.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, since you asked, we had an ARC dealer, well, we have a new one now, but I've heard a fair amount of ARC and even auditioned an amp/preamp when I owned Dyn's, before buying my CJ. This is just my own taste, I do not like ARC. I also have heard a lot of Mac and although I like it better than ARC, I would not have it in my system either.

I heard an ARC Ref Preamp some years back connected to Classe monoblocks driving the top Nautilus Diamond. Big price tag but just didn't do anything for me. In fact, I've heard B&W a lot driven by ARC and Classe amps, to Mac's credit it wasn't until I heard the big Nautilus lit up by the 1k monoblocks I gained new respect for the speaker. I had no idea the big boys could do bass like that.

I respect both lines and recommend them if some one is looking for their type of sound.

Interesting that you didn't like ARC or Mac. I know both brands have a strong following on here and other websites. I felt the same way about the B&W 800's, that they never really grabbed me and my dealer tried Musical Fidelity, Mac, and Ayre. They eventually dropped the line and picked up Wilson and they do sound better on Ayre electronics. They've since dropped Musical Fidelity and Mac also and picked up ARC and Bryston. They have the ARC gear driving the Sonus Faber speakers.

[frenchmon]

Wow. That never even entered my mind. Next week I'll do that and pretend like I'm auditioning at my hifi shop. Thanks Frenchy

Well I know the Dyns and Usher have 2 total sound signatures with the Usher being more lively. It might actually have better synergy with the Pass than the more neutral Dyns. Do you have the Diamond tweeter with your Ushers?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Well I know the Dyns and Usher have 2 total sound signatures with the Usher being more lively. It might actually have better synergy with the Pass than the more neutral Dyns. Do you have the Diamond tweeter with your Ushers?

No, When I got these I would have had to go up to the BE-718 to get the beryllium tweeter which as it turned out wasn't a true beryllium tweeter after all. The diamond came out a couple years later. The X719's have a nice smooth presentation and the 7" woofers can move some air. They sound great in my HT application.

I may bring the S520's over and give them a spin on the Pass also.

[Feanor]

Mr. P, the ARC LS 27 surprised me with its darker, warmer sound. It had great air and transparency. It was the warmest and darkest of the 3 preamps that I listened to. It may have been the pairing with the Ayre CD player and amp. The Mac certainly was not warm.

This interesting about the LS27. I think I could like that: uncompromised air & transparency combined with warmth and darkness. I enjoyed the Adcom GFA 555II which was a rather warm & dark, (though a bit grainy and not top notch for air & transparency). Do you suppose associated equipment affected your impression relative to the other preamps?

My Pass X150.5 produced the best overall instrument sound, imaging, and dynamics I've personally heard but it isn't warm; also, solo and primary instruments tend to be brought forward a bit in soundstage, and highs (strings, brass) at higher volumes can sound strident in case of some recordings. Or maybe the last characteristic is caused of my current s/s ARC LS9 which has fine air & transparency and also dynamics but is certainly is neither warm nor dark. I wonder how an LS16 or 17 would sound?

[blackraven]

I liked the ARC but I liked the MP-3 better. I think that the Ayre CD player and amp contributed to the warmth. The ARC sounded better on the Magnepan 1.7's vs the 3.7i's.

Feanor, I bet that your amp would sound better with a higher end ARC.

[bluetrain]

I love my A21. It has a little grain and it is not as transparent as more expensive amps but it has gobs of power, deep and controlled bass and sweet highs. It needs a tube preamp to sound the best IMHO. I used a Van Alstine hybrid tube preamp and hybrid DAC. I am going to put it back in my main system just to hear how it sounds with an audiophile preamp-my Pass X1.

I am surprised that you preferred it over the DNA. The DNA 500 is supposed to be a killer amp

I never had a grain with a21. Could be the room, cables or other electronics. Who knows. I used it with CJ pv15 hybrid, Atoll pr300 solid state, and now sometimes Bat 42se, and grain was never there. Go figure. But still I won't recommend getting that particular CJ for your Pass. Your business of course, but be a little patient :)

As for McCormack, don't know what to say. I never heard the dna500.
First got the 125, which was a very unremarkable amp, next was 225. My speakers at that time were Vandy 2 sigs. The main reason for buying McCormacs were user comments, where many of them referring to them as being tubelike. Then I realize that they, actually, were parroting each other and never knew how tubes sound. Now, when I have a tube amp too, I can say with confidence that those particular McCormacks were nothing like tubes. Quite the opposite. Again, can't comment on dna500, but I suspect it should have at least a bit of their house sound, which is not tubey.

[blackraven]

You are lucky not to hear the grain in the A21. Even the pro reviews have mentioned it. You have to listen for it as it is not in your face. My preamp and dac are very revealing (Van Alstine).

[blackraven]

I just returned from the HiFi shop and have come to the conclusion that I probably need to upgrade my DAC first and foremost.

I brought my DAC and Pass X1 preamp to the shop and hooked it up to a Mac MC452 amp which is more in line with my X250 and the magnepan 1.7's which are better sounding than my 1.6's. (the X250 was more liquid and had more slam than the SS Mac, but the Mac had a fuller midrange and much better attack, more like my Parasound A21). I then compared it to the ARC LS27 and the Atma Sphere MP3 preamps with my DAC. The X1 and ARC were some what similar in sound-in air, transparency and sound stage but the ARC was darker and slightly warmer with a fuller midrange. The MP3 has a warmer bottom end, more bass slam and a lush to die for midrange, but the highs this time were a little bright. The ARC was the most quiet. Detail on all three were similar. The X1 sounded thin in the midrange compared to the other 2. This time around I preferred the ARC over the MP3 with my DAC. But the too are close. The MP3's midrange was just out standing and vocals were to die for.

I think that I can live with the X1 if I can find a fuller sounding DAC or CD player. I am going to go back in a couple of weeks and listen to a couple of Ayre CD players and an ARC DAC. I am also going to buy the Cardas Parsec IC's for their warm detailed sound. I am also considering a Marantz 11s3 SACD player.

I would still like to hear a BAT and CJ ET-3se preamp but I have a feeling that the CJ preamp (which sells for $4K) will be out classed by the more expensive preamps. Higher price definitely gets you better sound and I wonder if the CJ would be a step down from the X1 in detail and sound stage.

By the way, I got to hear a $120,000 system.
Wilson Alexia speakers at $48K pr, Ayre Mxr Monoblocks $19k each, Ayre preamp $19K and a $16K Wadia CD player along with a few thousand dollars of cables. The sound was awesome. No weaknesses. The sound stage was huge, imaging was spectacular. The sound was airy and lush at the same time. Tone from top to bottom was smooth with a hint of warmth. I would have loved to hear the 3.7i maggies with this gear.

Any way, after this adventure I am more confused than anything. The problem living in the Twin Cities is that there are so few high end dealers (3) and none of them carry the BAT, CJ or Marantz reference lines.

[Mr Peabody]

I would be interested in knowing how the Ayre disc players sound, I was seriously considering one before the deal on the 512 fell my way.

BR, why don't you and Feanor trade preamps?

Glad you got to go listen to some gear, it gives experience and reference points. If they let you bring your gear in like that they must be pretty cool to work with.

[blackraven]

I would be interested in knowing how the Ayre disc players sound, I was seriously considering one before the deal on the 512 fell my way.

BR, why don't you and Feanor trade preamps?

Glad you got to go listen to some gear, it gives experience and reference points. If they let you bring your gear in like that they must be pretty cool to work with.

I don't think that the LS 9 would give me the sound that I am looking for. The LS 27 is a little dark and warm, every thing that an ARC preamp was not supposed to be. I was impressed. I may give a look at the LS 26. I am going to try and talk to ARC. I tried calling them today and got a voice mail. I may have to stop by their factory which is about 40 minutes away.

My audio shop was great. They wanted me to bring in the Pass amp but at about 110lbs I was not about to move it. They actually encourage you to bring your gear in.

[frenchmon]

Raven...man..you are getting down and having to much fun over there with some exciting gear! The MP-3's brightness is probably about finding the right tubes...and man I wish I could tag along with you...and i do want to say...good for you on the Cardas copper cable...I understand those to be outstanding and that particular cable has no silver in them to fake anything. Good for you man!

[frenchmon]

I would be interested in knowing how the Ayre disc players sound, I was seriously considering one before the deal on the 512 fell my way.

BR, why don't you and Feanor trade preamps?

Glad you got to go listen to some gear, it gives experience and reference points. If they let you bring your gear in like that they must be pretty cool to work with.

Peabody...I would think with the ARC LS being discontinued in 1999 that it would be a little more dated than the Pass Labs X1.

[blackraven]

Currently I am contemplating buying a BAT VK-51se. It sold for $9k new. I think it will give me the sound that I am looking for. I would prefer a VK-32se but they are priced too high. I talked to a guy at BAT and he thinks that it would be a great match with my Pass amp. The guy is friends with Nelson Pass and highly respects his amps.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Currently I am contemplating buying a BAT VK-51se. It sold for $9k new. I think it will give me the sound that I am looking for. I would prefer a VK-32se but they are priced too high. I talked to a guy at BAT and he thinks that it would be a great match with my Pass amp. The guy is friends with Nelson Pass and highly respects his amps.

Are you still going to listen to some Ayre CD players and ARC DAC?

[JoeE SP9]

There is a regular poster on the Stereophile site who after hearing an Oppo BD105 sold his Ayre player and replaced it with the Oppo.

[Feanor]

Currently I am contemplating buying a BAT VK-51se. It sold for $9k new. I think it will give me the sound that I am looking for. I would prefer a VK-32se but they are priced too high. I talked to a guy at BAT and he thinks that it would be a great match with my Pass amp. The guy is friends with Nelson Pass and highly respects his amps.
TheBAT VK-51se, based on anything I've heard about is extremely worthy of consideration. I definitely put it ahead of the McIntosh in my own priorities. Sometime you hear that the BAT sound is a little on the dark side but that factor alone wouldn't bother me personally.

It seems to have the right stuff, including fully balanced circuitry and non-cathode, no-buffer design yet still with low output impedance. It's an impressive box of stuff as this pic reveals ...

http://www.highendpalace.com/103700.jpg

[blackraven]

Are you still going to listen to some Ayre CD players and ARC DAC?


Yes, some time in the next 2-3 weeks. I definitely need to upgrade my DAC which is the weak link now although it held its own when I brought it to the stereo shop. But I feel that I need to get tubes in the preamp. My Magnepans could really benefit from them. Just hearing the difference between the X1 and the tubed ARC LS 27 and the MP3 confirmed that.

Feanor, you have to give a listen to the new 1.7's. They sound much better than the 1.6's. They have a more coherent sound and they don't have the mid bass hump that the 1.6's have. They are a little more detailed and are much smoother sounding.

[Feanor]

Feanor, you have to give a listen to the new 1.7's. They sound much better than the 1.6's. They have a more coherent sound and they don't have the mid bass hump that the 1.6's have. They are a little more detailed and are much smoother sounding.
I'm quite willing to believe that the 1.7's are better and I could probably trade up for C$1200-1300 or so. The nearest dealer is in Toronto which is about a 4.5 hour round trip so which is non-trivial at least in winter time, and right now I'm broke having bought a new DAC, the Schiit Bifrost Uber, a new preamp, the LS9, and new amp, the X150.5 in the last 8 months or so.

Fortunately I'm quite pleased with my current setup including the speakers so I will most likely hold out for another year on further upgrades

[blackraven]

Looking at the inside of the BAT goes against the "less is more" philosophy. But at least it looks like you are somewhat getting your money's worth compared to the spartan insides of some line stage preamps that sell for thousands of dollars with just a few hundred dollars of parts.

[Feanor]

Looking at the inside of the BAT goes against the "less is more" philosophy. But at least it looks like you are somewhat getting your money's worth compared to the spartan insides of some line stage preamps that sell for thousands of dollars with just a few hundred dollars of parts.
Right, well fully balanced circuitry basically doubles all components; also each channel seems to have its own transformers, i.e. this is or is close to "dual mono".

There is quite an array of heat sinks as we see; these are likely to provide cooling for separate power supply regulator chips used in various parts of the circuit; this separate regulations is generally a good thing. Also, the numerous, large capacitors are likely used in the power supplies and aren't in the signal path. {edit} Actually according to BAT, the new VK-53se has replaced output capacitors with transformers, so I guess so of the gold-colored capacitors near the top of the photo are in the signal path. {/edit}

On the other hand that design uses eight dual-triode tubes and one wonders how these are all used, especially in that supposedly none are cathode follower output buffers. Given their type, they presumably aren't used for power supply, which is presumably solid state.

http://m6.i.pbase.com/o2/57/99757/1/132752766.EuT8P9bS.BATVK51SEinside.jpg

[blackraven]

I was considering a VK-32 preamp that was on Agon for $2600 but it was missing the remote and it costs $500 for a new one. I called BAT and they admitted that it was outrageously expensive. When I told the guy that the remote for the Atma sphere was $950 he didn't feel so bad. I would have bought the Atma Sphere MP-3 that Upscale Audio has for sale but it does not come with a remote which is a deal breaker. Adding the remote would drive the cost up to much.

BAT says the VK-32 is warmer and smoother than the older 51se but the 51se was more detailed and dynamic. You can upgrade the 32 to an se version for about $3K. You can take it all the way up to a 33se if you want.

I just put in a bid on the VK-51se, so we will see what happens.

[blackraven]

Well, the guy has accepted my bid on the BAT. Any one want to buy a Pass Labs X1 preamp?

I will need to buy tubes for the BAT. It takes 6H30's x 8 tubes. I am going to buy the Electro Harmonix gold pin, matched pairs. I will also need a pair of RCA to XLR adapters for my DAC.

[Mr Peabody]

I'll be anxious to hear how the BAT sounds, you are the first person I know who has one.

6H30, used to be called "the super tube" for it's long life. I thought those were only Russian. BAT did have them exclusive until ARC some how worked a deal for them, I'm not sure if they are more widely used today or not.

[blackraven]

All the 6H30's are made in the same Russian plant that made the old military (and highly coveted) 6H30 DR tubes. The Reflektor plant makes the Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix gold pin 6H30's which are basically a higher voltage 6DJ8.

[Jack in Wilmington]

All the 6H30's are made in the same Russian plant that made the old military (and highly coveted) 6H30 DR tubes. The Reflektor plant makes the Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix gold pin 6H30's which are basically a higher voltage 6DJ8.

Is it a lot more expensive to stock it with similar tubes that the last owner had in it? Do you think the RCA to XLR adapters will work as well as a full XLR connection?

[Feanor]

... Do you think the RCA to XLR adapters will work as well as a full XLR connection?
I'm sure that that the RCA > XLR will work, i.e. blackraven will get sound, but get a relative 6 dB reduction in overall gain. I'd tend to assume that the BAT will simply process the "+" signal from the DAC and won't attempt to derive the "-" by some means such as a transformer or active circuit. That is a question he might want to pose to the BAT folks: does the VK-51se construct a balanced signal from an SE input. I suspect the answer is, "No", if for no other reason than the 51se provides only balanced input connections.

That being the case, his X250 will be getting a single-ended input (even if XLR cables are used). The long & short of this is that, using his existing single-ended DAC, he won't be enjoying the benefits of balanced circuitry notwithstanding that he has a fully balanced preamp.

[frenchmon]

All the 6H30's are made in the same Russian plant that made the old military (and highly coveted) 6H30 DR tubes. The Reflektor plant makes the Sovtek and Electro-Harmonix gold pin 6H30's which are basically a higher voltage 6DJ8.

You may also use 6H30Pi/ 6H30n-EB / 6N30Pi tubes if you can find them.

[blackraven]

I talked to BAT and there is no problem using the XLR adpaters and they did not think that there would be a loss of sound quality. As for the Pass, I did not notice any improvement in going from RCA to XLR. My DAC still is single ended into the Pass Preamp. Any decrease in sound quality will be offset by the much greater improvement that the BAT brings. Eventually I will get a new DAC or high end CD or SACD player with XLR. I think that the BAT has an adjustable gain much as the Pass X1 has.

Concerning the tubes, they still make brand new Sovtek and EH 6H30 Pi tubes for about $29 per Sovtek and $33 per EH gold pin. They are not hard to get and my local tube dealer here in the Twin Cities has the EH's in stock and they will match them for me. The DR's are the NOS and there are a lot of phony DR's around and they are of questionably better sound depending upon the review that you read. Actually, I am glad that there are not a lot of different 6H30's because it will keep me from tube rolling and wasting money. I went through at least a dozen pairs of 6CG7's before finding some that I liked.


I also have found a pair of high quality Cardas XLR adapters for $69 pr.

[frenchmon]

Are you still going to get the Cardas Parsec interconnects?

[blackraven]

Are you still going to get the Cardas Parsec interconnects?

Yes, but it will be a while before I buy them due to the expense of the BAT and the tubes.

[Feanor]

I talked to BAT and there is no problem using the XLR adpaters and they did not think that there would be a loss of sound quality. As for the Pass, I did not notice any improvement in going from RCA to XLR. My DAC still is single ended into the Pass Preamp. Any decrease in sound quality will be offset by the much greater improvement in that the BAT brings. Eventually I will get a new DAC or high end CD or SACD player with XLR. I think that the BAT has an adjustable gain much as the Pass X1 has.
...
I also have found a pair of high quality Cardas XLR adapters for $69 pr.

That's my guess too. The inherent character of the BAT will be more significant than balanced vs. single-ended. Balanced vs. SE has made no noticeable difference in my experience even with amps that are tweaked for balanced. The Cardas female RCA to male XLR should work fine to connect your DAC, though I see that Cardas make two types and don't seem to describe the differences. I assume you will use XLR between the BAT and the Pass.

I'll be very interested indeed to hear your impression of the BAT vs. the Pass X-1 vs. your Van Alstine.

[blackraven]

I saw the 2 different XLR adapters form Cardas. I will buy the cheaper pair for $69pr vs 150pr. Parts express sells cheapies for $5 which I will use for my sub.

[Feanor]

I saw the 2 different XLR adapters form Cardas. I will buy the cheaper pair for $69pr vs 150pr. Parts express sells cheapies for $5 which I will use for my sub.
Sounds like a plan. Another option, maybe especially for your sub, would be hybrid cables, e.g. from Monoprice ...

http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/47851.jpg

[blackraven]

I saw that cable but read this review on it-


As always Monoprice has the best products that your money can buy.
Was this review helpful to you?

Rating: (8 out of 10) Reviewer: John Jamieson from Sault Ste Marie, MI
8/21/2012 9:34:50 AM
Good ONLY for balanced to unbalanced
Pros: Great cable for connecting a balanced output to an unbalanced input

Cons: Do NOT mistake this cable as being the proper way to connect an unbalanced output to a balanced input (e.g. a consumer CD player to a audio mixing board).

I love monoprice cables in general, and this cable is good. At the time of this review, the writeup is incorrect when stating that this should be used to connect an unbalanced output with a balanced input.

To connect an unbalanced output to a balanced input, a two conductor (+ shield) cable is needed.
On the unbalanced end, the red conductor should connect to the tip, the black to the ring (the shield should not be connected).
The XLR connector should be wired with the shield connecting to pin 1, the red to pin 2, the black to pin 3.
You now would have 30-80db of noise rejection.

For more reading:

This Rane document has the best chart on proper wireing.
Sound System Interconnection (http://www.rane.com/note110.html)

This is a more technical document that tells us why.
AV: Connecting Unbalanced Outputs To Balanced Inputs?And Vice-Versa - Pro Sound Web (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/connecting_unbalanced_outputs_to_balanced_inputs_a nd_vice_versa/P2/)


All the adpaters that I am looking at have the correct pin connections, this cable does not

[Feanor]

I saw that cable but read this review on it-

As always Monoprice has the best products that your money can buy.
Was this review helpful to you?

Rating: (8 out of 10) Reviewer: John Jamieson from Sault Ste Marie, MI
8/21/2012 9:34:50 AM
Good ONLY for balanced to unbalanced
Pros: Great cable for connecting a balanced output to an unbalanced input

Cons: Do NOT mistake this cable as being the proper way to connect an unbalanced output to a balanced input (e.g. a consumer CD player to a audio mixing board).

I love monoprice cables in general, and this cable is good. At the time of this review, the writeup is incorrect when stating that this should be used to connect an unbalanced output with a balanced input.

To connect an unbalanced output to a balanced input, a two conductor (+ shield) cable is needed.
On the unbalanced end, the red conductor should connect to the tip, the black to the ring (the shield should not be connected).
The XLR connector should be wired with the shield connecting to pin 1, the red to pin 2, the black to pin 3.
You now would have 30-80db of noise rejection.

For more reading:

This Rane document has the best chart on proper wireing.
Sound System Interconnection (http://www.rane.com/note110.html)

This is a more technical document that tells us why.
AV: Connecting Unbalanced Outputs To Balanced Inputs?And Vice-Versa - Pro Sound Web (http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/connecting_unbalanced_outputs_to_balanced_inputs_a nd_vice_versa/P2/)

All the adapters that I am looking at have the correct pin connections, this cable does not
Indeed, I'm familiar with the Rane document and I would would follow that advice.

I'm a little confused by the review however. The cable I pictured would be to the one to go from the BAT to your subwoofer, i.e. balanced to unbalanced, i.e. female XLR to male RCA. I really don't know whether the Monoprice cable is correctly wired in accordance with Rane, but the reviewer does say, "Great cable for connecting a balanced output to an unbalanced input".

Rane shows two balanced to unbalanced: one for one wire + shield (#4) and another for two wire + shield (#6). A few years ago I fabricated a pair of balanced to unbalanced per #6 and an unbalanced to balanced per #17.

[frenchmon]

Sounds like a plan. Another option, maybe especially for your sub, would be hybrid cables, e.g. from Monoprice ...

http://images.monoprice.com/productlargeimages/47851.jpg

High end gear like Pass and Bat connected with 5 dollar interconnect? That should never be. I guess the only way youd know is to do a shootout with this and a Cardas or some other reference cable.

[Feanor]

High end gear like Pass and Bat connected with 5 dollar interconnect? That should never be. I guess the only way youd know is to do a shootout with this and a Cardas or some other reference cable.
I don't buy generally buy $5 interconnects myself, then again I've heard little to no difference among interconnects up to the $200 level. At least do the shoot out before you declare, "That should never be".

BTW, I think good advice would be to put your adaptor on the UNbalanced end of the connection, whether source or target.

[frenchmon]

Feanor,,,,I use to own those same balanced cables from MONO PRICE and gave them away. Not a bad cable but compaired to more pricey ones they fail of refinement.

[blackraven]

I am only going to use the cheap XLR adpaters for my subwoofer. I am using some cheap RCA's to connect my sub to my preamp. I have not noticed a drop off in sound from my higher end sub cable that I broke.

[Feanor]

Feanor,,,,I use to own those same balanced cables from MONO PRICE and gave them away. Not a bad cable but compaired to more pricey ones they fail of refinement.
I'm not counselling anyone to buy cheap cables. Actually I only linked the Monoprice cables to illustrate what a hybrid XLR female to RCA male cable would look like.

I own some Blue Jeans Cable XLRs that use Belden cable, and also a pair from Take Five Audio using cryo treated Neotech cable. Both would be considered medium priced, the BJC on the lower end, the Take Five a bit higher. I can't hear any difference though.

[blackraven]

Ok, I sent out the check for the BAT VK-51se. I should have it in about 7-14 days. I already purchased the tubes. I am excited to say the least. If it works out, then my next upgrade will be my DAC and then possibly the Magnepan 1.7's or 3.7i's in a couple of years.

[Mr Peabody]

I think we will all be waiting to hear about the BAT.

Jack, if you are still wanting a tube pre I know where you can get a like new Premiluna, it's the one that sells for around $3200 and he is asking $2k. The guy bought it and decided he didn't want tubes and bought a Levinson pre. I haven't heard it but my friend says it's more neutral sounding which I found surprising from what others have said about the brand. If interested email me and I will give you the contact info. Or, if no dealers in your area maybe you want a Levinson :)