New State of the Art BG Planar Speakers- Coming Soon

[Searay328]

Hi All

I just wanted everyone to know that the new BG Radia FS 880 Planar dipole speakers will be arriving soon.

Mt 2 friends who are engineers and speaker builders helped build the prototypes which were the BG Radia LA 800's (in wall design) which were modified as dipoles. (see prototype photo)

I sold them to make way for the new FS 880 model which looks different than the 800 protos. But does still have a total of 12 Neo 10's mids, 32 Neo 3 tweeters but differs vfrom the protos in that they have 4 woofers per side with the included 1200 watt amps.

Please check out Dr. Sakakini's You Tube video key words:

BG Radia Dipole 800/FS880 prototypes

[blackraven]

I don't care much for the look of the speakers but I like the Pass gear you have there.

[Searay328]

The photo I posted is not the new FS 880
They r the prototypes
If u visit BG 's website click on floorstanders u can view the 420's and the 880's they are gorgeous
Please try to read up on these remarkable drivers neo10 and neo 3
No distortion and unlike magnepan they do not share the same mylar which causes smearing of frequencies

[JohnMichael]

Quick question are you advertising and promoting these speakers? Are you affiliated with BG?

[Feanor]

The photo I posted is not the new FS 880
They r the prototypes
If u visit BG 's website click on floorstanders u can view the 420's and the 880's they are gorgeous
Please try to read up on these remarkable drivers neo10 and neo 3
No distortion and unlike magnepan they do not share the same mylar which causes smearing of frequencies
So I had a look at the FS 880's, (see pic). I guess they come pretty close to line source given the height and number of drivers. OTOH they seem too narrow to properly reinforce the mid-range (at least the lower portion), in which case you'd get less output and maybe even some cancellation due to the dipole design. Also they aren't cheap but then that may be said of a lot of speakers.

Various BG Radias models have been around for a while but haven't exactly attracted rave reviews -- meanwhile Magneplanars continued to get excellent, not to say adulatory, reviews; (mylar "smear" isn't such a big deal apparently).

http://www.bgcorp.com/bgadmin/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fs-880.jpg

Not to be too negative about Bohlender Graebener, their RD75 Planar Transducers look very interesting for DIY. See HERE (http://www.parts-express.com/bohlender-graebener-rd75-planar-transducer--264-700). But I note that if you want to used them down to 400 Hz you ought to have a panel of 17" width for full reinforcement and no dipole cancellation.

[blackraven]

Why no frequency response specs?

[Searay328]

You really need to hear them
Before passing judgment
I have owned maggies and they are a toy compared to these new speakers
The new models start at 5995 for the 420's
Please watch the you tube video of Dr sakakini
He owned .maggjes for years

[Searay328]

Also I forgot to nnention that I do not get any dipole cancellation by having the
Speakers out at least 6 ft from the wall
Bg line array has less distortion does not share the same mylar'diaphram for all competing frequencies and as a result sound cleaner and more transparent due to the fact tgat there is no overlap of frequencues on the sane diaphragm

Also the FS 880 can be ordered for either passive or active the 20.7 does not

[blackraven]

Yes but why are the specs not listed? And I have never heard a Maggie smeared or distorted. That's a load of crap! While I own Maggies, they are not the end all in speakers but saying that they are smeared is BS.

Speakers that have to be placed 6 feet from the rear wall will be difficult to accommodate for most people.

[JohnMichael]

This discussion can continue without Searay328. He has not responded to my questions here and will not accept PM. I think he is promoting BG.

[Feanor]

This discussion can continue without Searay328. He has not responded to my questions here and will not accept PM. I think he is promoting BG.
Indeed -- whether or not he's on the BG payroll.

He doesn't seem well informed on speaker characteristics, neither for the BG Radia nor for the Magneplanar. E.g. (a) he believes there is no frequency overlap between drivers in the case of the Radia (which there must be to some extent), and (b) he doesn't understand dipole cancellation. The latter occurs when the 1/2 wave length of the frequency is longer than the speaker baffle (or planar element) is wide -- under those conditions the front and rear sound waves reach around the speaker and partially cancel each other.

[blackraven]

I felt he was promoting for the company, that's why I got a little aggressive with my replies.

[JohnMichael]

I felt he was promoting for the company, that's why I got a little aggressive with my replies.



I do not think he was honest about why he was here. He did not fill out a profile and his only posts were about BG. Other manufactures pay to advertise and I think BG could afford an add or two. He may have just been a rabid fan boy of BG. On the other hand how much of a member do you want to be if you do not fill out even the basics of the profile.

[Pat D]

Yes but why are the specs not listed? And I have never heard a Maggie smeared or distorted. That's a load of crap! While I own Maggies, they are not the end all in speakers but saying that they are smeared is BS.

Speakers that have to be placed 6 feet from the rear wall will be difficult to accommodate for most people.

Errr . . . Feanor has Magnepan 1.6QR speakers.

Inmate Systems - Audio Asylum (http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/4613.html)

[blackraven]

Errr . . . Feanor has Magnepan 1.6QR speakers.

Inmate Systems - Audio Asylum (http://cgi.audioasylum.com/systems/4613.html)


What's your point? Both Feanor and I have the 1.6's. I was not complaining about the 1.6's. I was commenting about the BG speakers needing to be placed 6 feet from the wall. I love my 1.6's but there are better speaker but not at that their price point.

[Pat D]

What's your point? Both Feanor and I have the 1.6's. I was not complaining about the 1.6's. I was commenting about the BG speakers needing to be placed 6 feet from the wall. I love my 1.6's but there are better speaker but not at that their price point.

Sorry! I had not clued to the fact that mylar smearing was Searay's idea and that Feanor's comment was ironic.

[blackraven]

Sorry! I had not clued to the fact that mylar smearing was Searay's idea and that Feanor's comment was ironic.


I figured there was a misunderstanding there.

[Mash]

So I had a look at the FS 880's, (see pic). I guess they come pretty close to line source given the height and number of drivers. OTOH they seem too narrow to properly reinforce the mid-range (at least the lower portion), in which case you'd get less output and maybe even some cancellation due to the dipole design. Also they aren't cheap but then that may be said of a lot of speakers.

Various BG Radias models have been around for a while but haven't exactly attracted rave reviews -- meanwhile Magneplanars continued to get excellent, not to say adulatory, reviews; (mylar "smear" isn't such a big deal apparently).

http://www.bgcorp.com/bgadmin/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fs-880.jpg

Not to be too negative about Bohlender Graebener, their RD75 Planar Transducers look very interesting for DIY. See HERE (http://www.parts-express.com/bohlender-graebener-rd75-planar-transducer--264-700). But I note that if you want to used them down to 400 Hz you ought to have a panel of 17" width for full reinforcement and no dipole cancellation.

I STILL like the speaker in the middle.......

[JoeE SP9]

That girl standing on it will surely scratch it.

[melgross]

So I had a look at the FS 880's, (see pic). I guess they come pretty close to line source given the height and number of drivers. OTOH they seem too narrow to properly reinforce the mid-range (at least the lower portion), in which case you'd get less output and maybe even some cancellation due to the dipole design. Also they aren't cheap but then that may be said of a lot of speakers.

Various BG Radias models have been around for a while but haven't exactly attracted rave reviews -- meanwhile Magneplanars continued to get excellent, not to say adulatory, reviews; (mylar "smear" isn't such a big deal apparently).

http://www.bgcorp.com/bgadmin/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/fs-880.jpg

Not to be too negative about Bohlender Graebener, their RD75 Planar Transducers look very interesting for DIY. See HERE (http://www.parts-express.com/bohlender-graebener-rd75-planar-transducer--264-700). But I note that if you want to used them down to 400 Hz you ought to have a panel of 17" width for full reinforcement and no dipole cancellation.


Hi, I just joined, so I haven't yet filled out the rest of my profile as I wanted to respond to this thread.

I'm in the process of buying the 880s. I'd like to correct something that being stated about cancellation. BG understands this issue. They have an upgrade for side panels that fit at the outside edges of the panels, but project 90 degrees backwards. Or, you can buy 60"x14" .5" acrylic and mount them yourselves. I just finished adjusting the bass for a friend who is also a dealer. He's got the two sets of the large in wall panels as well, and had problems getting the bass correct. We fixed that.

I bought gasketing for him to mount those acrylic panels with. I'm going to do the same thing for mine. I measured the response from 80 Hz to 20K with my iPad using AudioTools and pink noise. It was very smooth, even with 24th octave and no smoothing.

I was intending to buy Soundlab Millennium 1s, but this changed my mind. I'm going to use my old Carver Amazing Platinums for the bass though.

I am NOT a dealer. But I used to be a partner in a professional audio design and manufacturing company back in the day called Magnum Opus, later changed to Peacetime Communications. We sold to JBL the end of 1982. As I said, some time ago.

The built in woofers go to just below 30Hz, but don't seem to have much output above 80db there. That's not enough for me, as I listen to organ music as well. The Platinums go down to 16 without a problem, with some help from a Behringer. At that freq. they can hit 100 there. Yes, it is amazing.

These speakers use what they're calling their Select drivers. They've got a guy measuring them. As they're made in China, QC isn't what they would like. The ones that don't meet the specs are used for their in wall systems.

I know it seems strange that the extra panels would be add ons, but they describe their speakers as "lifestyle products", and insist that many of their customers don't want the look of the extra panel, which is why it's an option. The panels work quite well, adding another 4to 6 db from the crossover at 130 Hz to about 200 Hz when compared to no panel, which does have, as has been mentioned, a suck out at those frequencies.

If anyone is still interested, after all this time, I'll report back after they are here, in about three weeks, as each model is custom made, and mine has special wiring, as well as a custom powder paint that I sent them (Jollipop Red Metallic).

Ok, the profile is filled out, though I can't seem to add my photo.

[Feanor]

Hi, melgross, and welcome to AR Forums.

B&G at least realized the problem even if the solution is optional.

Bohlender Graebener drivers can be bought by DIYs from, e.g. Parts Express. An interesting B&G DIY project website is Projects update and iformation page (http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/). An interesting design article is ALSR - The RD75 Dipole Baffle Study - Table of Contents (http://web.archive.org/web/20080709041133/http://ldsg.snippets.org/ALSR/dbsindex.html).

Suck-out due to front<>back cancellation should, in concept, begin much higher than 200 Hz. Presumably a "baffle shelf compensation" approach could be used to compensate for suck-out but at the price of efficiency. I'd still say the a wider baffle is the preferred method, e.g. this rather handsome one that uses transparent acrylic for the side extensions ...

9627

[melgross]

Hi, melgross, and welcome to AR Forums.

B&G at least realized the problem even if the solution is optional.

Bohlender Graebener drivers can be bought by DIYs from, e.g. Parts Express. An interesting B&G DIY project website is Projects update and iformation page (http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/). An interesting design article is ALSR - The RD75 Dipole Baffle Study - Table of Contents (http://web.archive.org/web/20080709041133/http://ldsg.snippets.org/ALSR/dbsindex.html).

Suck-out due to front<>back cancellation should, in concept, begin much higher than 200 Hz. Presumably a "baffle shelf compensation" approach could be used to compensate for suck-out but at the price of efficiency. I'd still say the a wider baffle is the preferred method, e.g. this rather handsome one that uses transparent acrylic for the side extensions ...

9627

The way dipoles work is that the average width of the panel needs to be the quarter wavelength of the lowest frequency needed. That will give a flat panel response to that frequency. Driver rolloff in free air is another factor. 200Hz has a quarter wavelength of 1.4 ft, and 133, where its crossed over, has one of 2.1 ft.

So at 200Hz we're perfectly fine. Well within the tolerances. at 133Hz, we just make it, as the 11" front, plus the 14" side panel is just about 2.1 ft. I know it seems odd to have the panel at a 90 degree angle from the front, but it works well. Without it, there is a big suckout.

My Platinums are a bit wider than that on average, but go all the way down in the bass. Of course, Carver compensated with very high Q drivers.

In theory, there should be a slight angle for the side panel. That is, it should be slightly narrower at the top, and about 3" wider at the bottom. Without that, there should be noticeable bumps in the frequency response below the frequency of the quarter wavelength. but at these high frequencies the bumping is to small to bother with.

it's odd that only Apogee and Carver took this into account. Every other dipole I've measured has had this in spades at the low frequencies.

I don't like their regular drivers. Frankly, I don't think they're very good. The QC isn't what I think is wonderful. You never know why you're going to get, like Tatung - great designs, but variable. I've resisted getting anything from them because of that. But these selected drivers are much better, and match level and frequency response pretty well. I've spoken to them about this.

[Feanor]

The way dipoles work is that the average width of the panel needs to be the quarter wavelength of the lowest frequency needed. That will give a flat panel response to that frequency. Driver rolloff in free air is another factor. 200Hz has a quarter wavelength of 1.4 ft, and 133, where its crossed over, has one of 2.1 ft.

So at 200Hz we're perfectly fine. Well within the tolerances. at 133Hz, we just make it, as the 11" front, plus the 14" side panel is just about 2.1 ft. I know it seems odd to have the panel at a 90 degree angle from the front, but it works well. Without it, there is a big suckout.

My Platinums are a bit wider than that on average, but go all the way down in the bass. Of course, Carver compensated with very high Q drivers.

In theory, there should be a slight angle for the side panel. That is, it should be slightly narrower at the top, and about 3" wider at the bottom. Without that, there should be noticeable bumps in the frequency response below the frequency of the quarter wavelength. but at these high frequencies the bumping is to small to bother with.

it's odd that only Apogee and Carver took this into account. Every other dipole I've measured has had this in spades at the low frequencies.
...
Humm ... OK. I thought it was 1/2 wavelength rather than 1/4. Or maybe the 1/2 applies to monopoles in cabinets.

Is it really feasible to run the even the longest RD75 as low as 133 Hz? I seem to recall when a read the B&G DIY forums a few years ago the recommended crossover ought to be 400+ Hz.

Most of the DIY experimenters at the websites I linked have concluded that a tapered baffle is best, as you suggest. E.g. ...

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/McNutt1.jpg

[melgross]

Humm ... OK. I thought it was 1/2 wavelength rather than 1/4. Or maybe the 1/2 applies to monopoles in cabinets.

Is it really feasible to run the even the longest RD75 as low as 133 Hz? I seem to recall when a read the B&G DIY forums a few years ago the recommended crossover ought to be 400+ Hz.

Most of the DIY experimenters at the websites I linked have concluded that a tapered baffle is best, as you suggest. E.g. ...

http://home.comcast.net/~thomasw_2/McNutt1.jpg

133 is their crossover point. I would prefer going to 80, but not with these. It was one reason i was thinking about the Soundlabs.

Without the proper amount of taper, you get combing, which can give bumps of plus minus 3 db. It's a problem the Maggies, and other dipole speakers, have in the upper though the low bass..

[melgross]

I finally received a delivery date of next Tuesday for these. Apparently the custom wiring and painting took a few extra days, and the driver testing took longer than expected. Oh well, at least they will get here. BG Radia posted a picture of them on their Facebook page. I'll see if I can get that pic and post it here.

https://www.facebook.com/93453844450/photos/pb.93453844450.-2207520000.1400092441./10152457286039451/?type=3&theater

That might be the best for now.

[blackraven]

Very nice, I am looking forward to your review!

[Feanor]

I finally received a delivery date of next Tuesday for these. Apparently the custom wiring and painting took a few extra days, and the driver testing took longer than expected. Oh well, at least they will get here. BG Radia posted a picture of them on their Facebook page. I'll see if I can get that pic and post it here.

https://www.facebook.com/93453844450/photos/pb.93453844450.-2207520000.1400092441./10152457286039451/?type=3&theater

That might be the best for now.

Very impressive! :14:

But, I wonder, why not use a single RD75 transducer instead what looks like arrays of Neo3's and Neo10's? Will it handle more power?

[melgross]

Very nice, I am looking forward to your review!

Me too!

[melgross]

Very impressive! :14:

But, I wonder, why not use a single RD75 transducer instead what looks like arrays of Neo3's and Neo10's? Will it handle more power?

They believe that shorter drivers are easier to manufacture and control. Their concern is that longer drivers tend to resonate more, and at lower frequencies, which seems possible. It's a major reason their long ribbons are cut off at such a high frequency.

The speaker is pretty efficient for a non horn at 93db. It's rated at 120db output. My Bryston 7Bsst/2s are now likely overkill. My Carver woofers will continue to be powered by my Murano Ice module 1200w/4ohm monoblocks.

With these, there is no crossover on the 10s at all, either on the top, or bottom. The woofers come in at around 125-130. They are normally crossed off there. I'm not using their woofer amps though. I've got my own ideas on that, and will cut them off at the bottom around 70-80Hz to my Carver Platinums.

I'm getting stoked about this whole thing. My friends are driving me nuts about when it will get here.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Yes but why are the specs not listed? And I have never heard a Maggie smeared or distorted. That's a load of crap! While I own Maggies, they are not the end all in speakers but saying that they are smeared is BS.

Blackraven, what direct comparisons have you made between speakers that you can make a definitive statement such as this? You have got to compare any two(three or four speakers) in real time with identical material to make such a claim. You cannot make comparative statements in a vacuum, and you certainly don't have the auditory memory to make a comparison on a different day, or in a different room.

I have heard Maggies distort. Just try and play 30-40hz signals at anywhere near realistic levels, and the distortion of the Maggies really shows itself audibly. A friend of mine has the 20.7, and they are not the most dynamic speaker, nor do they have the weight and power in the bass that other speakers have in their price category. It also does not have the imaging focus of a mini-monitor which tells me there is some smearing in the time domain somewhere. It is also(like most dipoles) not exactly true to the source - as a lot of the room "sound" is carried with the direct sound. But from the midrange up, not many speakers have the clarity factor Maggies have.


Speakers that have to be placed 6 feet from the rear wall will be difficult to accommodate for most people.

This may not be such a big problem for those that can afford to own them. People usually have the room to accommodate the speakers they choose. If they don't, the speaker won't sound very good in their rooms.

[Feanor]

They believe that shorter drivers are easier to manufacture and control. Their concern is that longer drivers tend to resonate more, and at lower frequencies, which seems possible. It's a major reason their long ribbons are cut off at such a high frequency.

The speaker is pretty efficient for a non horn at 93db. It's rated at 120db output. My Bryston 7Bsst/2s are now likely overkill. My Carver woofers will continue to be powered by my Murano Ice module 1200w/4ohm monoblocks.

With these, there is no crossover on the 10s at all, either on the top, or bottom. The woofers come in at around 125-130. They are normally crossed off there. I'm not using their woofer amps though. I've got my own ideas on that, and will cut them off at the bottom around 70-80Hz to my Carver Platinums.

I'm getting stoked about this whole thing. My friends are driving me nuts about when it will get here.
This is very interesting indeed, especially about the shortcomings of the longer transducers. It's also interesting that no crossovers are used.

I assume these speakers are dipolar?

[melgross]

Blackraven, what direct comparisons have you made between speakers that you can make a definitive statement such as this? You have got to compare any two(three or four speakers) in real time with identical material to make such a claim. You cannot make comparative statements in a vacuum, and you certainly don't have the auditory memory to make a comparison on a different day, or in a different room.

I have heard Maggies distort. Just try and play 30-40hz signals at anywhere near realistic levels, and the distortion of the Maggies really shows itself audibly. A friend of mine has the 20.7, and they are not the most dynamic speaker, nor do they have the weight and power in the bass that other speakers have in their price category. It also does not have the imaging focus of a mini-monitor which tells me there is some smearing in the time domain somewhere. It is also(like most dipoles) not exactly true to the source - as a lot of the room "sound" is carried with the direct sound. But from the midrange up, not many speakers have the clarity factor Maggies have.



This may not be such a big problem for those that can afford to own them. People usually have the room to accommodate the speakers they choose. If they don't, the speaker won't sound very good in their rooms.

I agree. I really don't want to sound self serving, but Maggies don't have wonderful bass. Like a lot of spreakers, they can go down pretty far, but with almost no output. The problem is a known one, and one reason the Apogee's died out. Using ribbons or electrostatics for bass is really difficult as there is almost no x-max. So delivering a lot of output at low frequencies can be out of the question altogether, unless the surface area is vast. Even the Soundlabs I was considering, while they are rated by Soundlab to go to 25Hz, have no dynamics there, or an octave above.

The nature of dipoles just magnifies that problem. A 24" wide panel begins to roll off at about 135Hz, and there's little that can be done about it. Even the big Soundlabs roll off at about 90Hz, and they used to offer side panels that lowered that to about 70Hz, but don't offer them right now.

Then, the lack of taper gives that comb effect, which can give, beginning a half octave above that rolloff, bumps in the frequency curve of about +- 1 1/2db above the rolloff, and as much as +-3db below, if the panel is really too narrow. Not good!

[melgross]

This is very interesting indeed, especially about the shortcomings of the longer transducers. It's also interesting that no crossovers are used.

I assume these speakers are dipolar?

Yes, dipoles. Now, i have to say that I've just a bit of experience with the older 800's, the design of which were really taken from their in wall panels, and had the closed back of those models. And yes, I do know Searay, and lambasted him about his posting here. He's actually a nice guy, and sells stuff to all of his friends at cost, so he makes no money on those sales. It's not his main business, and I don't think he makes any money from his audio sales. He is enthusiastic though. I'm not involved with him, the dealership he's invested in, or B&G in anything regarding business, or in any financial way. I really want to make that clear. And I'm not receiving anything for posting here, or anywhere else, though I've only posted here (other than to the other members of the clubs I'm a member of).

Moving on, I helped him to set up his 800s, and frankly, was appalled at just how bad they sounded.

We removed the rear panel enclosing the drivers after B&G said ok. They sounded MUCH better. There really is no way to absorb a rear wave, no matter what any manufacturer says. The smaller the cabinet, the worse the pressure coloration will be, and these sure were colored! The problem remained that the driver QC wasn't as good as it needed to be for really high quality audio use, though great for movies, where most people just want loud, dynamic and brassy.

Anyway, they agreed to make the next model as a dipole. With new QC procedures on their free standing high end models, the drivers now actually match, and meet specs, not always true before. Of course, this also gave them the opportunity to raise prices.

These are the plexi panels I just made. They are 5' high, 12.5" at the top, and 15.5" at the bottom. I have a friend who is an architect, and with a smile, he asked if I would flame polish the edges. I said no - but anyone who knows me understands that once I get a bug, it's over, so I did. I wish the pics were better, but I just took them with my iPhone.

96749675

[melgross]

I figured I should put this into another post, so it wouldn't get too long. I'm replacing the points of the feet. I simply don't understand what it is with manufactures and points. The worst possibly way to have a speaker meet a surface. It causes not only vibrations from the speakers through the floor, and right into one's rack, but the floor actually colors the sound of the speaker itself. Sigh, if audiophiles were willing to learn something, instead of keeping their heads in the sand, this junk wouldn't happen.

Here are the feet I Made in my shop. The bottom is Delrin, 1/2" thick by 2 3/8" dia. Glued to that with medical grade instant adhesive, Locktight 4013, because it's gap filling, and works well with about anything, including the F-3 grade felt above the Delrin. That grade felt is used for machinery vibration control, and works very well with low frequencies. Topping that off is a 1/2" by 2" disk of 6160 aluminum. with a hole tapped 1/4" x 20, to attach to the screws that would hold the points. I powder coated the metal. This was all made in my shop.

Next story will be about the way I had to mod the bottom of my Carvers to allow them to stand at a 90 degree angle rather than tilted back as normal, If there's the interest.

9676
9677

[melgross]

Well, they finally came in last Thursday. They are basically set up. Later, I'll put a picture up.

Long way to go though. Ordered two amps for the extra bass speakers. Hopefully will be here next week.