Pass X1 preamp

[blackraven]

I received my X1 today and have been listening to it for about 1 hour or so. Here's the short story-

Do I like it-yes, Am I a little disappointed-yes. Does it sound better than my Van Alstine Ultra Plus hybrid tube preamp- In some ways yes and other ways no!

Here is the long story- I recently upgraded from an Parasound A21 amp to a Pass X250. I found the Pass to sound better but at the expense of some resolution on strings, horns and piano. So I decided to pick up a used X1 preamp thinking that I would gain some of this back and that there would be some synergy with the X250. Well I did get back some of the inner detail and the sound is more liquid, transparent with a slightly wider sound stage. However, the X1 is not as musical. It smooths things over like the X250 and the music has lost some of its texture. And even though there is a slightly wider sound stage, the spacing between instruments is not as great as with the Van Alstine if that makes sense. Bass is similar with the VA being a little tighter. Vocals are smoother with the X1 but more real with the VA. On one song that I was listening too, finger snaps were more real and more forward with the VA. The X1 has a tube like sound and a warmer sound but it is laid back. Treble sounds more realistic with the X1 however.

I have heard that the X1 needs to be powered on for 24hrs to reach its peak sound. I will reassess the sound in 24hrs and do some tube rolling in my Van Alstine Ultra Plus hybrid DAC. I have a feeling that I will have a dilemma. Do I keep the X1 with its smooth, liquid airy sound or the Van Alstine with its more visceral not as refined, but more musical sound? Hearing the X1 makes me appreciate the VA preamp a liitle more as it cost $1799 about 4 years ago and then I added another $450 in upgrades through Van Alstine. It certainly can compete with the $6000 X1 which is an older model and getting a little long in the tooth.

Other issue's with the Pass. The remote can be used as a weapon. It is wide as a brick and feels like it weighs about 2 pounds. The user interface is odd and you have to scroll through a menu to get the mute to work and the remote is just too big. Lastly, the volume control knob is odd looking, although the VA preamp won't win a beauty contest either as it has that 1970's heath kit look as all the VA gear still has.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Good information BR. I'll look forward to more insight as you listen further. Is there a particular type of music that sounds really good (Rock, Classical, Jazz, etc.) or not so good?

[blackraven]

Good information BR. I'll look forward to more insight as you listen further. Is there a particular type of music that sounds really good (Rock, Classical, Jazz, etc.) or not so good?

Jack, the X1 does not sound bad. It's just that I am probably missing the lush midrange that tubes can give you. And the music sounds too perfect and I probably perceive this as missing some texture. Even my son is on the fence with the X1. It would be interesting to try it with my A21 amp.

I am going to roll some tubes with a more lush midrange in my DAC.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, the X1 does not sound bad. It's just that I am probably missing the lush midrange that tubes can give you. And the music sounds too perfect and I probably perceive this as missing some texture. Even my son is on the fence with the X1. It would be interesting to try it with my A21 amp.

I am going to roll some tubes with a more lush midrange in my DAC.

Sorry, Bad was a poor choice of words on my part. I'm in the middle of the Absolute Sounds review of the X350.5 in this months edition. I'm waiting to see what preamps he uses in the review. I know Peabody likes his X-10, I wonder if you would, or would you still miss the tube midrange. That's one of the things I like about this hobby, you can't always count on things happening the way you want them to.

[Mr Peabody]

If the X1 is same topology as the XP10 give the X1 a good 24 hours of being plugged in and warming up. I haven't heard the X1 but it should be noticeably better than the AVA. I remember reading a review about the older menu, thankfully, that has been eliminated in the XP10 and I'd assume the other newer models. Some one posted a link to a X1 review, did you read it, if so, any mention of warm up time?

You won't get that fleshy, or euphonic, sense on vocals like tubes but you should hear more things like tightness in drum strikes, bass should be better controlled, I am puzzled on your A21 statement, I can see the A21 maybe being more brash on strings and piano but those tones come through beautifully for me, very clean with no harshness at all, you should also be getting better textural info, like woodiness from the stand up bass, brass should have that growl you get from real brass instruments, although that effect varies from recordings, that Chesky disc really shows it. The space and air around instruments should definitely be better with the X1. I will say instruments should also have more body and be articulate. The X1 should have a more overall sturdiness to the sound over the AVA.

Just relax and give it some time, and definitely do not unplug it, any swapping of gear should wait a couple days.

[Mr Peabody]

Jack, when are you getting your 150.5?

[blackraven]

My son finds the X1 a little fatiguing. I may end up selling the X1 and buy a CJ, BAT or ARC tube pre. I may even take a look at Frank Van Alstines new fully tube FET preamp. I am going to see if he has one that I can take home next week or the week after. He would have a smile a mile wide if I told him that my Ultra Plus preamp beats out the X1 in some aspects.

[JohnMichael]

Just to play devil's advocate it sounds like you received it today and you are ready to move on already. Has it warmed up in your system yet and have you had time to try different cables? My advice is to give it more time.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, when are you getting your 150.5?

Looks like Monday is the delivery date when I check the tracking. It's made its way across the country from Reno and it's in Newark, De. now. Going to start moving things around on my rack today to get her shelf ready.

[Jack in Wilmington]

My son finds the X1 a little fatiguing. I may end up selling the X1 and buy a CJ, BAT or ARC tube pre. I may even take a look at Frank Van Alstines new fully tube FET preamp. I am going to see if he has one that I can take home next week or the week after. He would have a smile a mile wide if I told him that my Ultra Plus preamp beats out the X1 in some aspects.

Are you using the BJC XLR's between the X1 and the X250?

[blackraven]

I am going to give the X1 a week and live with it. The issue is that I was expecting a big improvement in sound as this sold for $6K new. Unfortunately the improvement is in some areas and other area's are worse. So it appears to be mostly a lateral move at best. I am probably missing the harmonic richness of tubes (although my DAC still gives me some of that). I will see how it sounds tonight when I get home from work although I will probably be watching the Oklahoma State (Go Pokes! I went to school there)-Baylor football game most of the night.

Jack, I am using the BJC XLR's as that is all I have. They were given to me. I may try RCA's.

[Feanor]

Just to play devil's advocate it sounds like you received it today and you are ready to move on already. Has it warmed up in your system yet and have you had time to try different cables? My advice is to give it more time.
I agree with JM and others that it needs a little time before you can draw conclusions.

Warm up does seem to make a difference. E.g. my X150.5 amp needs at least 30-40 minutes, (Pass says 1 hour), to sound its best; consequently I tend to switch it on well before I intend to actually listen and leave it on if there's much chance I'll be back later in the day -- this ain't so great on account of it sucks 200 watts at idle. My ARC preamp and Schiit DAC remain on all the time; ARC draws 20 watts at idle and the Schiit close to that I suspect.

Speaking of cables:

I got an new, 15 foot USB cable to connect the computer to the Schiit DAC. It's a Pangea with silver plated "PCOCC" copper signal wires, (HERE (http://www.audioadvisor.com/Pangea-Audio-USB-cable-PCOCC-4-silver/productinfo/PGUSBPC/#.UpCzmNK1x8E)). There might be a minute improvement in resolution but its hard to say; I haven't done any A-B'ing.
I swapped 3 foot Kimber PBJ's for 0.5 meter QED II's between the DAC and preamp. The QED's might reveal an tiny bit more detail but are a tiny bit brighter on the top end too. Here again the QED's sound maybe a bit less bright after a day of used -- this despite that they are used, though unused for many months.
I have ordered a pair of 4 foot Take Five Audio's Neotech NEI-3004 cryo treated, PCOCC copper XLR's, (HERE (http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopexd.asp?id=949)), to swap for the 7 foot BJC Belden 1800F's that I'm currently using between the ARC preamp and X150.5 amp. The Neotech's aren't high-end cables really, but I'm thinking the different, cryo'd design plus shorter length will make some difference.

[blackraven]

After another night of listening the X1's sound has improved slightly. I have been tube rolling in my DAC all night and found that a pair of RCA Clear tops without a center shield sound the best overall except for it being a little bass heavy but I guess I will have to live with it. It now has a slightly darker sound which I prefer and it is more tube like. The midrange had more weight with the RCA's (it is interesting because the Clear tops did not sound well with the VA preamp). I have a couple more tubes to try. The X1 is definitely smooth with a little more fidelity but it is still missing some of the tube tube harmonics that make my VA preamp a pleasure to listen to.

The X1 has a more airy, transparent but softer sound and the VA has a better midrange with almost as much air and sound stage. The vocals are to die for with the VA as they have more weight and texture. I will probably keep the X1 until I can find a nice tube preamp in the future. I am still going to give Frank Van Alstine a call and see if I can take his new FET Valve preamp home for a spin to compare to the X1. I just wish it had XLR's as the out going FET did.

[Feanor]

After another night of listening the X1's sound has improved slightly. I have been tube rolling in my DAC all night and found that a pair of RCA Clear tops without a center shield sound the best overall except for it being a little bass heavy but I guess I will have to live with it. It now has a slightly darker sound which I prefer and it is more tube like. The midrange had more weight with the RCA's (it is interesting because the Clear tops did not sound well with the VA preamp). I have a couple more tubes to try. The X1 is definitely smooth with a little more fidelity but it is still missing some of the tube tube harmonics that make my VA preamp a pleasure to listen to.

The X1 has a more airy, transparent but softer sound and the VA has a better midrange with almost as much air and sound stage. The vocals are to die for with the VA as they have more weight and texture. I will probably keep the X1 until I can find a nice tube preamp in the future. I am still going to give Frank Van Alstine a call and see if I can take his new FET Valve preamp home for a spin to compare to the X1. I just wish it had XLR's as the out going FET did.
The X1 sounds pretty good to me based on your reports, but I'm probably not as big a "warmth" fan. I lean to maximize transparency & air, (where the Pass X150.5 is on the money for a power amp).

The new AVA FET Valve is now more valve than FET. The signal path is now all tube and has a cathode follower (used reduces output impedance). My former Sonic Frontiers Line 1 had an all-tube, cathode follower design; it was anything but tube-like except with a lot of tube rolling I managed to get some tube ambience (but no tube warmth or fullness) -- I'm not sorry I sold the preamp.

I believe several of the ARC tube preamps are actually hybrid in that the have s/s stages in the signal path, e.g. the LS16 MkII, LS17, LS25 MkII, I think the LS26, and maybe others. I love to try one of these.

[blackraven]

Bill, you are correct, the new FET is an all tube preamp. The old one was a hybrid like mine. The new FET does not use 6CG7 tubes like mine or the old FET. I am not a big fan of the 6CG7's as there is only one company making them and the good NOS tubes are becoming difficult to come by.

I considered buying an ARC LS26 MKii as there were a couple on Agon for not much more than the X1. The guy that I bought the X1 from bought an LS26 and he said that the 2 preamps sound very similar and that it was difficult to tell them apart.

[blackraven]

Today I was able to take home the new all tube version of the Van Alstine FET preamp to compare the the X1. With the brief listening that I have done, it has convinced me that a tube preamp is the way to go. The FET has brought out that nice lush midrange while maintaining its air and transparency. The sound stage is wider with the FET and vocals are to die for. There is more texture to the music. Bass is a little tighter with the X1 but overall punch is about the same. The X1 is a little smoother with a little more detail but not much more. Cymbals sound more natural and have more air with the FET. I could certainly live with the FET. The X1 is a great preamp but I miss the tube midrange and warmth that tubes bring. It may not be the most accurate but it just sounds right. And after much contemplation and reading a thread on the AudioShark forum I have come the conclusion that detail and accuracy are not nearly as important as what sounds good to me.

[Mr Peabody]

Looks like Frenchmon was right on you missing tubes. Although they were in the DAC apparently in the amp chain makes more difference.

Jack you are currently all solid state, if your heart wasn't set on going tubes maybe you and Blackraven should get together on the X1.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Looks like Frenchmon was right on you missing tubes. Although they were in the DAC apparently in the amp chain makes more difference.

Jack you are currently all solid state, if your heart wasn't set on going tubes maybe you and Blackraven should get together on the X1.

I was leaning towards tubes and BR's recent experience only confirms that. I'm leaning toward a Cary SLP-03 or a Parasound P5 at the moment as the funds aren't available for a major purchase.

[frenchmon]

Raven....I find that a lot of guys...especially over at audiokarma, like listening to gear rather than music. It's not all about the finest detail as long you got detail that allows the musicality to come. If the emotion flows from your heart, then that's What's up! As much as I have listened to some nice Solid State...and believe me there is some nice solid state out there...but something is still missing as far as that last little drop in the texture of that sound. That vividness ..the intensity of the notes...I just miss it with SS.

Jack...you are on the right tract in my opinion by adding tubes...Now we all know Peabody loves tube.... if we can get Peobody to get a tubed preamp.....

[Jack in Wilmington]

Raven....I find that a lot of guys...especially over at audiokarma, like listening to gear rather than music. It's not all about the finest detail as long you got detail that allows the musicality to come. If the emotion flows from your heart, then that's What's up! As much as I have listened to some nice Solid State...and believe me there is some nice solid state out there...but something is still missing as far as that last little drop in the texture of that sound. That vividness ..the intensity of the notes...I just miss it with SS.

Jack...you are on the right tract in my opinion by adding tubes...Now we all know Peabody loves tube.... if we can get Peobody to get a tubed preamp.....

Peabody really likes his XP-10 and the synergy that it has with his X250. It might take some serious coin to get him into a acceptable preamp.

[Feanor]

I was leaning towards tubes and BR's recent experience only confirms that. I'm leaning toward a Cary SLP-03 or a Parasound P5 at the moment as the funds aren't available for a major purchase.
Well it's coin the keeps me from trying out a tube preamp. There are old CJ's and Cary's that are cheap enough but (a) those brands -- at least the older models -- are warm and soft and that's not what I'm looking for, also (2) they don't have remote control which I consider essential. I'm not convinced that cheap Chinese goods are up to the task; I'm not about to match cheap junk with my Pass amp.

[Mr Peabody]

For me the Pass is a good middle ground, it depends on your listening taste in music and what part of the hi fi presentation does it for you. I loved the CJ but for Rock and more energetic music the romance and rounding of some edges took something away as well. While the Krell with it's authority didn't draw me in as much on other types of music. The Pass sort of gives the best of both worlds without going to the extremes of either. I wish I had been patient and used the CJ preamp with the Threshold amp a bit longer, the two pieces had synergy like they were made for each other. I wanted a more modern amp though and the Threshold really got me wondering what the Pass was like. True, on my current set up vocals don't have that euphoric type sound but the improvements every where else are worth the trade off. It's hard to describe the difference, and it would be general any way since tube gear varies as solid state does in sound, but tubes give you a more in the room type of presence where my system is more, at the performance feel. In some cases tubes put more "flesh on the bone feel". I listen to a very wide variety of music and I find the Pass a nice place to be for that. IMO the Pass rocks as well as providing outstanding fun for Classical, the way it controls the performance, no over hang, dynamic, and provides great texture. They say, never say never, but I don't see myself going any more warmer or tubes, and, one of the criteria when I was looking for an amp was to maintain musicality.

If you are going to use a tube preamp with a solid state amp the output impedance of the tube preamp should be 500 ohms or less to be optimum. If not it will not match the amp to it's potential. I will also say, although it may be fun hearing different gear, it could also be expensive and put you on the merry-go-round until finding the right synergy. Just a thought FWIW before just pairing any preamp that fits a budget to the Pass amp. Whether they admit it, and others may argue, but I find most brands do have a "house" sound, sometimes they mix, and other times they don't. The exception being Alstine, I don't know if he has a plan at all when building gear, The FET gear was the first I have ever used that seemed to have synergy with other brands more so than with each other.

[blackraven]

The thing I like about the FET is that it is not overly tubey or warm. It has just the right amount of warmth. It is also very dynamic and musical, at least on par with the Pass. As I said before, the X1 is a little more resolving and it should be, costing $4000 more than the FET. The FET is a bargain at its price point. With that being said, I will probably try and find used preamp. Another reason I want to go with tubes in a preamp is that my DAC is getting long in the tooth and it can't take advantage of Hi-Rez music. So my next DAC will probably be SS, unless I get one of the Marantz ref SACDP's.

For now I will live with the X1. It sounds very good but its not the sound that I am looking for.

I wish I had a TT as the FET that Frank loaned me has a phono preamp.

[frenchmon]

Well I hope it all works out for you...I know in the long run it will.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, I finally rolled all 12 pairs of my 6CG7 tubes and the last pair sounds the best (go figure). It gives me more of what I am looking for, a little warmth, fuller midrange with more texture and a little bit of tube sound without sacrificing detail and transparency. Its not perfect but I like it a lot better now. I can live with it till I decide to get a CJ ET-3se preamp or BAT.

I am considering upgrading my DAC to a DSD DAC or just going with a Marantz 11S3 SACD player. If I had the cash now I would buy a used Marantz 7s1 or S2 SACDP. There are 3 of them on audiogon right now for reasonable prices. I have also considered getting a Modright modified Oppo 105 with the tube and power supply mod but I think I would be better off with Marantz. This may be the preferable way to go as the X1 could use a better source than my current DAC which does not do hi rez music. And lately after hearing a friends system I have been considering getting a dedicated computer for audio and using J River Software along with a DSD DAC.

[frenchmon]

Glad to hear that BR....I really need to get into digi music with a computer as well.

[harley .guy07]

I set up a music server a few months ago and love it, i got a killer deal on a dell desktop pc and use it or a dedicated music and media server. I run it usb to my PS Audio Nuwave and it is the best my system has sounded after i installed fidelizer on the pc

[Feanor]

I am considering upgrading my DAC to a DSD DAC or just going with a Marantz 11S3 SACD player. If I had the cash now I would buy a used Marantz 7s1 or S2 SACDP. There are 3 of them on audiogon right now for reasonable prices. I have also considered getting a Modright modified Oppo 105 with the tube and power supply mod but I think I would be better off with Marantz. This may be the preferable way to go as the X1 could use a better source than my current DAC which does not do hi rez music. And lately after hearing a friends system I have been considering getting a dedicated computer for audio and using J River Software along with a DSD DAC.
I'd like to try a DSD DAC as well. Actually my two last acquisitions before the Pass amp were the Schiit Bifrost Uber DAC and the ARC LS9 premp; they were both very significant improvements to my system. However if I were now back before either of these I think I might well look for a DAC with preamp functions and also DSD capability.

I think there a two or three that might do this. One is the Benchmark DAC2 HGC which even has a couple of analog inputs, plus balanced outputs and remote control, see HERE (http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/dac/dac2-hgc).

http://www.benchmarkmedia.com/sites/default/files/dac2-hgc-front.jpg

[blackraven]

I would love to have one of these lampizator DAC's. Unfortunately the level 2 which was affordable is no longer available.

Welcome (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/welcome.html)

[Feanor]

I would love to have one of these lamizator DAC's. Unfortunately the level 2 which was affordable is no longer available.

Welcome (http://www.lampizator.eu/newdac/lampizator/welcome.html)
... well, looks like you can buy it in DIY kit form, (here (http://lampizator.eu/shop/viewcategory.php?groupid=0)). :smile5:

[Mr Peabody]

The Cambridge DAC, I believe it's the 851, has variable output with remote, the sound is different than past players, quite neutral, a bit too crisp for my taste, but again system synergy and personal taste.....

For a preamp/DAC combo Bel Canto would be on my list to be sure. Several Esoteric DAC's have variable outputs w/remote. Seeing this as a trend the options should be plenty.

[blackraven]

... well, looks like you can buy it in DIY kit form, (here (http://lampizator.eu/shop/viewcategory.php?groupid=0)). :smile5:


I may consider the kit if I can get some one to build it for a reasonable price. I have a radio guy here that might do it.

I am not looking for a Pre/DAC combo. I would like a new DAC and/or a high end SACD player.

[Feanor]

The Cambridge DAC, I believe it's the 851, has variable output with remote, the sound is different than past players, quite neutral, a bit too crisp for my taste, but again system synergy and personal taste.....

For a preamp/DAC combo Bel Canto would be on my list to be sure. Several Esoteric DAC's have variable outputs w/remote. Seeing this as a trend the options should be plenty.
I would consider a DAC with built-in preamp to economize (since I could sell my current preamp), and also eliminate a component in the repro chain.

Another DAC that meets the description is the NAD M51 (http://nadelectronics.com/products/masters-series/M51-Direct-Digital-DAC). It received a very good review in Stereophile, (here (http://www.stereophile.com/content/nad-m51-direct-digital-da-converter)). I doesn't do DSD however. I'd have to looked for a used one of course.

No rush, though: my Schiit Bifrost Uber punches 'way above its weight, especially for transparency & air, and I'm please with the clarity and dynamics of my ARC LS9.

http://nadelectronics.com/img/img.php?110921093930-M51_Front.jpg/1200
http://nadelectronics.com/img/img.php?110921094241-M51_Rear.jpg/1200

[Feanor]

I may consider the kit if I can get some one to build it for a reasonable price. I have a radio guy here that might do it.

I am not looking for a Pre/DAC combo. I would like a new DAC and/or a high end SACD player.
As a classical music listener mainly, there are plenty of SACD recordings that could justify a player upgrade for me; I have about 50 SACDs at the moment and would have more if I had a player better than my current Sony SCD-CE775. JohnMichael's SCD-XA5400ES would probably work well for me; (I'd pay the shipping).

Speaking of DIY and also NCore amps, you can buy the raw guts of a stereo amp based on the NC400 for Euro 1110, about USD 1500. Add couple of a hundred for cases, connectors, and RFI/EMI filters (as pictured) and you'd have you amps for about 1/4 of commercial ready-made options.

http://audiovideo.fi/sites/default/files/hypex-ncore-nc400-laatikossa_5042.jpg

[blackraven]

Bill I was not very impressed with my friends Ncore monoblocks. They were not very dynamic in my system when he brought them over. His jaw dropped open when he heard how they compared to my Pass. My Parasound blows them away. I think that the Class D Audio amps are better.

[Feanor]

Bill I was not very impressed with my friends Ncore monoblocks. They were not very dynamic in my system when he brought them over. His jaw dropped open when he heard how they compared to my Pass. My Parasound blows them away. I think that the Class D Audio amps are better.
That's an interesting observation about the Class D Audio amps. And, to be sure, my Pass beats my CDA amp without breaking a sweat. I've have heard a other few negative comments about the NCores too; I'm not tempted to want to get one -- it was just an observation about the potential savings of DIY.

[Mr Peabody]

This thread has been quiet lately anything new on the preamp search, Jack, BR? I think you both are looking for warm but a good balanced preamp in a more neutral sound would be a krell, like a KRC-3. I know shipping isn't cheap but it would be interesting to see what the X1 did in Jack's system with the 1.8's. If you want to be bold I see Emo is coming out with a new $2k Reference balanced preamp :).

[Feanor]

This thread has been quiet lately anything new on the preamp search, Jack, BR? I think you both are looking for warm but a good balanced preamp in a more neutral sound would be a krell, like a KRC-3. I know shipping isn't cheap but it would be interesting to see what the X1 did in Jack's system with the 1.8's. If you want to be bold I see Emo is coming out with a new $2k Reference balanced preamp :).
Well I've decide that I don't need a "warmer" preamp than my ARC LS9 in combination with my Pass X150.5. A fairly small portion of my recordings sound a bit bright but I've decided that it's the recording's fault, not the amplification's.

LS9 cost me about the same as a new Emotiva XSP-1 "Differential Reference"; it was less than what a Krell KRC-3 would have cost and less than half as much as the Pass X1.

The Emotiva XSP-1 has a lot of nice features but I wouldn't include its numerous opamps among them. When I look at this photo from Emotiva, I count at least 15 opamps. The LS9 is all-discrete and class A.

http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0104/5532/products/xsp1_top_1024x1024.jpg?v=1348091282

[blackraven]

I am eventually going to buy a CJ ET-3, preferably the SE version. Reviews on this preamp are nothing but stellar. It's a tube preamp.

[Mr Peabody]

From your posts Feanor I would think the ARC is a good match for you. If anything on your system at some point you might consider an upgrade in DAC.

[Feanor]

From your posts Feanor I would think the ARC is a good match for you. If anything on your system at some point you might consider an upgrade in DAC.
I agree with that my DAC would be the next thing to consider, though I'd like a nice SACD player, being a classical listener. I'm definitely envious of your Mark Levinson 512. Any DAC suggestions?

Meanwhile I feel my Schiit Bifrost Uber punches 'way above its weight, so no rush.

[blackraven]

Any DAC that you get should do DSD. Other considerations would be to get a Marantz reference SACD player that can function as a DAC. That is my plan. I would love to have an 11S2 or 11S3

[Mr Peabody]

There's the Sony JM recently bought, if nothing else Sony's SACD players seem to be respected. I also recently seen in a Music Direct flyer they had the Marantz Reference SA-15s for under $1500.00, normally $2k. You like things neutral you might even consider the Cambridge 851, it's quite a bit different from prior players being more neutral and detailed, I believe there are reviews around. Also, not sure if it does SACD but Music Direct also had the PS Audio DAC on sale for like $799.00. If you keep an eye on Audiogon or Spearitsound a Krell being balanced would match your system nicely. They also occasionally have an Esoteric within reach.

[Feanor]

There's the Sony JM recently bought, if nothing else Sony's SACD players seem to be respected. I also recently seen in a Music Direct flyer they had the Marantz Reference SA-15s for under $1500.00, normally $2k. You like things neutral you might even consider the Cambridge 851, it's quite a bit different from prior players being more neutral and detailed, I believe there are reviews around. Also, not sure if it does SACD but Music Direct also had the PS Audio DAC on sale for like $799.00. If you keep an eye on Audiogon or Spearitsound a Krell being balanced would match your system nicely. They also occasionally have an Esoteric within reach.
These are good suggestions, thanks.

The Marantz models do have the digital input so have the potential to replace my separate DAC. JM's Sony SCD-XA5400ES is looks good and reasonably priced, but has no digital inputs The Cambridge 851 accepts digital input but isn't an SACD player.

Interesting maybe is the fact that US retailers such as Music Direct, Acoustic Sounds, Audio Advisor, etc., will not sell certain brands in across the border to Canada due to agreements these brands have with Canadian distributors. This doesn't work well for Canadian consumers who usually end up paying more. BTY, the Sony SCD-XA5400ES isn't for sale in Canada at all.

[Mr Peabody]

I forgot the 851 didn't do SACD, I think because my friend uses it to do hi rez computer files. Not SACD is a major oversight of Cambridge on that unit especially considering the way they market it.

[Jack in Wilmington]

This thread has been quiet lately anything new on the preamp search, Jack, BR? I think you both are looking for warm but a good balanced preamp in a more neutral sound would be a krell, like a KRC-3. I know shipping isn't cheap but it would be interesting to see what the X1 did in Jack's system with the 1.8's. If you want to be bold I see Emo is coming out with a new $2k Reference balanced preamp :).

I'm still doing research. The holidays have slowed me down, plus our friend is building a house and wants to put a home theater in her entertainment room. It's so much easier to run the wires before the drywall is up. I've looked at ARC LS-15,16, and 17. Cary and CJ also. I want tubes and balanced and I'm mainly looking used. We're heading for Las Vegas in 2 weeks and I'm missing CES by a week. That figures.

[Mr Peabody]

Jack, may want to put BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) on your list.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack, may want to put BAT (Balanced Audio Technology) on your list.

Being a local company, I've been wanting to stop by their place and see if they have a loaner program or a 30 day trial deal.

[blackraven]

Jack, there are a few BAT 51se's and a BAT32 for sale on Agon. I would like to have a tube pre with XLR's but I don't want to limit my options. There are plenty of great tube pre's that don't have XLR. I tried my x250 with and wo XLR and the difference sound is minimal if any that I can hear.

[Mr Peabody]

Blackraven what did you hook to the X250 that was balanced? Balanced is more than just using XLR's, some gear offers the connection but not truly balanced.

The X250 is a single-ended "Class-A" topology with Pass's Supersymmetry™ Balanced approach to precision component matching. His Supersymmetry™ topology was granted a United States patent in 1994. Employing a balanced gain-stage, distortion and noise are made absolutely symmetrical at the two outputs. The signal is amplified, yet noise and distortion are canceled. The amplifier uses carefully matched components in a balanced "Class A" circuit. This simple circuit contains only two gain stages. A balanced single-ended voltage stage drives a bank of high power MOSFETs, which operate as followers for a minimal amount of feedback around the output stage. The massive reference level amplifier is fully DC coupled with no capacitors in the signal path. The result is a high-frequency smoothness belying its massive solid-state power.

[blackraven]

Mr P, I have my X1 preamp hooked up to the X250 via XLR's. My DAC is not balanced.

I will not limit my choices of my next preamp to just XLR. If I end up with a CJ ET-3se, I won't lament it not having XLR's as long as it sounds better than what I currently have. I have narrowed my choices to the CJ and a BAT. I will pull the trigger in the summer.

[Mr Peabody]

LOL, I spaced the X1 and it's the title of the thread. Too bad I still don't have the CT-6. I still think and in my experience the all balanced path is the way to go. I can understand broadening options though. Also, when comparing your XLR to RCA I recommend disconnecting the set not being used at one end. Frenchmon and I were comparing cables and although the difference in sound level was obvious when switching from XLR to RCA we thought the differences in the cables were better detected when one set was disconnected.

Here's an article although dated, 1994, this guy is not for balanced connections but the truths cannot be ignored. Like mixing balanced and non-balanced with some degradation. The thing is Pass is balanced and you bought into that, if wanting RCA type circuits you should sell the Pass.

"All the usual mixing and matching review procedures were useless; it was out of the question to make direct comparisons. I was fought every inch of the way, precisely because these Audio Research components are of true balanced design; ie, fully balanced differential circuitry is present at their every stage, including cross-coupling between hot and cold signal paths. It didn't take me long to realize that you can't mess with true balanced components; "

The same here for Pass, see prior post for explanation of patented Balanced Symmetry.

"For example, take an Audio Research V-series power amp with its balanced input (again, I'm not singling out ARC). In my experience, it won't perform at its best unless it's driven balanced. If you want to hear this amplifier in an unbalanced system, then I strongly advise you to acquire the relevant unbalanced/balanced converter, the Audio Research BL1. Regardless of the latter's exceptional quality, you've added a second set of connectors, cabling, expense, and grounding. "

As stated the article is old so maybe the conversion is better inside the gear these days but it's an expensive bet. IMO I disagree with many of the sound quality negatives listed, both Krell and Pass in one or the other have shown them not to be true. JM thought he had improvements when going with a balanced CDP, I thought I did as well when adding a Krell CDP to my Krell amp but it's hard to say since the player itself was an upgrade. I'm not saying one approach is better or worse, just that mixing is not the optimum approach for a system. I went RCA for a while from SACD to preamp but when going XLR it made a noticeable improvement.
Balance: Benefit or Bluff? | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/features/335/index.html)

[blackraven]

Here's an article although dated, 1994, this guy is not for balanced connections but the truths cannot be ignored. Like mixing balanced and non-balanced with some degradation. The thing is Pass is balanced and you bought into that, if wanting RCA type circuits you should sell the Pass.


A

I think I will keep the X250 unless the heat in the summer is intolerable. Its the best amp that I have heard so far all though the Nuforce model 9se come close. Even with RCA's it sounds great. Now my system is not as revealing as yours. Your speakers cost over 3 times of what I paid for the 1.6's ($1800) and your ML CD player is light years ahead of my DAC. Your X10 preamp is also a step up from mine. So I may not be hearing the full benefits of XLR.


I have heard the Pass with just the XLR's and just RCA's with the X1. I have also heard it with the new AVA FET Valve all tube preamp via RCA's. While there is a slight improvement in sound with XLR's it is not dramatic. The X250 really pairs well with a tube pre. The midrange had more texture, warmth and body with the FET Valve pre but it lost a little resolution. I think that the CJ or BAT preamps will sound better than the FET by a wide margin.

My Magnepans really like a tube preamp. I wish that there was a CJ and BAT dealer here so that I could take one home to try.

[Mr Peabody]

When you are serious Music Direct carries BAT with a return policy and I haven't looked at it but they do have some financing. BAT new is expensive stuff. Spearitsound for CJ allows a return if not satisfied but ask up front and the return is a short window. There's a CJ dealer in Indianapolis but I've not dealt with them.

It's really worth while experimenting with cables as well.

[Feanor]

Mr P, I have my X1 preamp hooked up to the X250 via XLR's. My DAC is not balanced.

I will not limit my choices of my next preamp to just XLR. If I end up with a CJ ET-3se, I won't lament it not having XLR's as long as it sounds better than what I currently have. I have narrowed my choices to the CJ and a BAT. I will pull the trigger in the summer.
For what it's worth, I've now had three amps that were tuned particularly for balanced input: (1) Monarchy SM-70 Pro, (2) Class D Audio SDS-258, (note: the CDA series has a different front end and isn't tuned for balanced); (3) Pass X150.5.

I haven't listened to the Pass X150.5 driven single-ended because my ARC LS9 is fully balance and I assume balanced sounds at least as good as SE. However neither the Monarchy nor the SDS sounded significantly better balanced than SE.

[blackraven]

I am contemplating buying the CJ ET-3se preamp after reading reviews and talking to the guys at spearit sound.

http://www.conradjohnson.com/It_just_sounds_right/review_et3_stereophile.pdf


Conrad Johnson ET3SE Preamplifier ? Reviews | TONEAudio MAGAZINE (http://www.tonepublications.com/review/conrad-johnsons-et3se-preamplifier/)

Conrad-johnson ET3SE (£4920) - Pre/power amplifiers (http://www.hifinews.co.uk/news/article/conrad-johnson-et3se-pound;4920/9800)

Here is a review of the lower priced non se version-

Conrad-Johnson ET3 preamp (Hi-Fi+ 75) | AVguide (http://www.avguide.com/review/conrad-johnson-et3-preamp-hi-fi-75)

The SE version has all the attributes that I am looking for. I think that it will be an excellent match with the X250. The guy at spearit sound said that the ET has great speed and the low end of a SS pre but the midrange and warmth of tubes. He stated the attack is crisp and the sound is detailed.

Now I have to sell my Van Alstine Ultra Plus Hybrid Tube preamp and the X1.

Any one interested in a Pass Labs X1 for $2K or the AVA Ultra Plus for $975

[Feanor]

From what I've read, (not heard, unfortunately), the CJ will be a warmer sound than the AVA. I'd certainly like to the ET3 in my system.

But from your own comments, I think I personally would be fine with the X1, but I'm unable to afford it and, anyway, I'm quite content with my ARC LS9 for now. BTW, I don't recall if your AVA has remote control and/or phono?

I'm skeptical that you will sense any loss going to a single-ended preamp -- at least I'm pretty sure that basic CJ tube sound will be a more significant change than SE vs. balance per se.

I didn't hear much difference going from balanced to SE with either my Monarchy nor Class D Audio amps despite both being optimized for balanced. I haven't gotten around to trying my X150.5 SE as yet.

[blackraven]

Feanor, the AVA has a remote but no phono preamp. Although Frank can add one (if fact, Frank posted on my thread on the Audio Circles forum that he would be willing to install his new phono preamp in my preamp if any one who buys the preamp wants one). It has a factory installed HT bypass switch and factory upgrades from the original 6N1P tubes to the 6CG7's and the newer MosFets to take it from an Ultra II to an Ultra Plus. The original price was $1799 and then another $450 of upgrades. Frank just gave it a thorough check up in October. I will be posting it on audiogon tomorrow once I take some pictures. I hate to see it go. Its a real bargain at $975. It responds well to tube rolling. I will include a pair of RCA clear tops.

I am not concerned in the least about going back to RCA's from the XLR's. Any benefit from the XLR's will be overshadowed by the improvement in sound from the CJ. I have not read a bad thing about the the ET3se and the guys at spearit sound glowed about it. They said it is not overly warm or syrupy like the recent older models.