have you heard meridian cd players?

[nusiclover]

to be honest, i was looking into getting the jolida tube cd player. but, during my searches i came across a used meridian 588 cd player for $1500. this is an obvious good deal(and also $600 more than jolida), but without being able to hear it, im asking you if you can offer sound advice.
thanks, nusic
my system is as follows:
dynaudio 52se
musical fidelity a3.2
tara labs interconnects

[RGA]

Why is it a good deal because it is $1500.00 now and was grossly overpriced when it was new? Do you not remember the article of a NAD cd player a few years back. When it came out at $450.00US they said it beat every mega thousand player of just 4 years prior. This theory is take it or leave it but the difference of a cd player is the DAC. Get a DAC to go with your current player - choose wisely.

[topspeed]

Completely agree with RGA on this: the dac is where it's at. Unfortunately, outboard dac's seem to be the hi-end's newest cottage industry and there are a ridiculous number of manufacturers all making ludicrous claims. Which is right and which is bs? I have no idea. I do personally believe that the difference in sound between cd players is subtle, excluding major differences in design like tube output stages, and certainly nowhere near the differentiation between speakers. Let your ears decide for you. Meridian is very good stuff but if I were looking used, the first thing I'd try to find would be a Wadia.

[nusiclover]

getting a dac would mean i should focus in a great transport right? the meridian uses a ROM transport, this could be good.
the jolida uses a tube gain.
however, i just got an email. this adds one more cd player to my choices. Cyrus CD6. reviews are killer.
so, my 3 choices are between Jolida jd100a, Meridian 588, and Cyrus CD6.
i could very well use them as a transport to a DAC. Of which ive had my eyes open and heard good things about MSB dacs. But, i am still investigating on wether to get a cd player or a cd transport.

[46minaudio]

getting a dac would mean i should focus in a great transport right? the meridian uses a ROM transport, this could be good.
the jolida uses a tube gain.
however, i just got an email. this adds one more cd player to my choices. Cyrus CD6. reviews are killer.
so, my 3 choices are between Jolida jd100a, Meridian 588, and Cyrus CD6.
i could very well use them as a transport to a DAC. Of which ive had my eyes open and heard good things about MSB dacs. But, i am still investigating on wether to get a cd player or a cd transport.
http://www.radioshack.com/product.asp?catalog%5Fname=CTLG&category%5Fname=CTLG%5F007%5F004%5F001%5F000&product%5Fid=42%2D7001
Here is a one you may want to look at..For a little more you can get DVDa,SACD,DVDV.
http://www.jandr.com/JRProductPage.process?RestartFlow=t&Section_Id=14090&Product_Id=3701173

[topspeed]

That's a lot of dead presidents laying down just to bypass their on-board dacs, nusic. Make sure you understand that there are only so many transport designs, laser pick-ups, etc. and the vast majority of manufacturers use a licensed Phillips or Sony design. A LOT of the scribes for mags such as TAS use Sony ES players as their reference so don't discount them just because they are mass market. Sony did invent cd (in conjunction w/ Phillips) as well as sacd and their transports and optical pick-ups are everywhere. If you really want to go the route of outboard dac, just get a cheap transport like RGA's mega disc changer. If you are going to throw down this much for a cd player, I'd really consider one that also plays sacd and/or dvd-a and finding an outboard dac for that is going to be mucho dinero.

Good luck

[nusiclover]

ok, once again tops, you make sence. but, just to be sure:
the marantz 5400 is a $300 cdp. would this make a good transport. this way i can put $600-800 on a dac. this means i get to focus on DAC's now. something i know nothing of, but will surely learn about quickly (asking the right questions here)
about sacd and dvd-a. i havent used them, i own none, and dont see myself using them for another few years. also, i have 2-channel right now so multichannel audio is meaningless.

[nusiclover]

one other thing (since there is many contradictory info out there), will a $300 cdp used with a $700 dac be better/worse/equal to a $1000cdp?
what are your opinions?
do you have any links?
also, a cdp like the jolida with a tube stage output will change this equation dramatically...how would you rate this in conjunction with the above options?

[topspeed]

one other thing (since there is many contradictory info out there), will a $300 cdp used with a $700 dac be better/worse/equal to a $1000cdp?
what are your opinions?
do you have any links?
also, a cdp like the jolida with a tube stage output will change this equation dramatically...how would you rate this in conjunction with the above options?

...because you've got great questions and unfortunately the only person that has the answers is you. Your ears are going to tell you what's right and wrong and/or good or bad. That's a cop out, I know, but it's also the truth.

The Ah! Noeb Tjoeb is a modified Marantz (not sure which model) so you could do worse as a transport. Obviously, Ah! thought it as a good place to start. Another route is to get a mod'd Phillips, Sony, or Denon unit which purportedly can hang right there with the Wadia's and Gamut's of the world according to some of the stuff I've read on bb's. This is gamble tho as a mod'd unit could also end up sounding far worse and you can kiss any warranty goodbye. BTW, don't discount hi-rez just because you are two channel. SACD and DVD-A are also two channel formats and sound better than redbook any way you slice it.

As with everything else, there are really only a handfull of dac manufacturers out there. Off the top of my head are Burr-Brown, Crystal, and Wolfson. I think Yamaha uses proprietary dacs. All sacd decoders are Sony if I remember right. Where companies claim there are differences in sound is through the manipulation and transfer of the signal via silver wires, sampling rates, anti-jitter circuitry, different clocks, and a partridge in a pear tree. Does it sound different? Maybe. Does it sound BETTER? You tell me. IMO, the law of diminishing returns ramps up quickly in this area so tread lightly. Call me skeptical but I just don't think a $3000 cd player is going to sound 10 times better than a $300 one.

As for the tubed cd players, I'm as interested as you are regarding their merits. Will it "warm" up the sound? Probably, but from what base line? Denon cdp's invariably sound warmer and more musical than Sony cdp's to my ears so would a tubed Denon be too euphonic whereas a tubed Sony sound just right? My personal goal is to get a great universal player for well under $1k as eventually as it will:
1) play my cd's to my satisfaction
2) play my dvd's to my satisfaction
3) take up less space in my rack
4) future-proof me for when and if hi-rez actually takes off (I stupidly have supreme overkill for my surrounds so I'm compelled to get into multi-channel hi-rez to justify their purchase :))

Good luck in whatever you decide to do.

[nusiclover]

once again- thanks tops!
i just finished reading an interesting review by a consumer that stated the Ah! njoe actually sounded better than having the same tjoeb connected with a MF 3.2 DAC....interestingly enough, i then found a hi-fi reviewer stating that "i could name 2 tubes that are less than the MF 3.2 cd player that may sound better" (im thinking he was referring to Ah njoe and Jolida)
personally, i have been looking extenively into these two playes. i have heard the jolida, but havent heard the tjoeb. its not easy finding one dealer that carries them both! no wonder...because that would be too telling. However, one thing i have liked about the Jolida over the Tjoeb is that for $900 the only thing to mod would be tubes, wheras the Tjoeb, which runs $600 stock, has this and that upgrade and the other upgrade as well as tubes. I kinda like that the jolida, although it is more expensive, filled in the gaps itself! i am not a mod or a tweak and this suits me fine. Another consideration is that i prefer the looks of the Jolida. Another advantage is that the Jolida does not use op-amps. But someone else can call that a disadvantage. The Tjoeb is 1 year warranty and the Jolida is 1.5 year.
Do you have any other data to distinguish these players?
from reviews ive read it seems that more people own the Tjoeb, it also seems Tjoeb has put more emphasis on getting their product out there.

[topspeed]

Do you have any other data to distinguish these players?
data shmata...your ears are the only instruments you should measure with in audio. If I only used data to choose equipment, I never would have bought my HCA2 which measures like sh!t but sounds better to me than any amp two or three times the price. There was a memorable quote I read in Stereophile (I think) when they put it in Class A despite JA's contrarian measurements : "If it sounds good and it measures good, it is good. If it sounds good and measures terrible, you're measuring the wrong things."


from reviews ive read it seems that more people own the Tjoeb, it also seems Tjoeb has put more emphasis on getting their product out there. That is interesting because I've only seen Upscale Audio in Upland, CA selling Ah! whereas Jolida is more widespread. Maybe it's just Cali? I did see a fully upgraded Noeb Tjoeb go on ebay for $750 not more than a month ago so keep your eyes open. Opportunities are like trains...there's another one coming down the track all the time.

Good luck

[nusiclover]

my miscommunication: i meant that if you type ah! njoe tjoeb on goole.com you will get nth times more information from users, etc. then if you search under jolida jd100a. I also meant that there appears to be many more ah! owners over jolida
interestingly enough, you are right! there is no other njoe tjoeb u.s. retailers out there...what could this mean?

[nusiclover]

to me, it almost seems that if you are a njoe tjoeb owner you are also an upscale supporter. this ties too close with microsoft windows ideology for me.

[topspeed]

to me, it almost seems that if you are a njoe tjoeb owner you are also an upscale supporter. this ties too close with microsoft windows ideology for me.

Nah, it's just because UpscaleAudio is the NA distributor for Ah!. The owner, Kevin (?), is actually a pretty down to earth guy although he's definitely a tube snob. I did just find this FWIW:
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?dgtlplay&1087568882

Could be a nice buy, but only if you like the way it sounds.

[Geoffcin]

Why is it a good deal because it is $1500.00 now and was grossly overpriced when it was new? Do you not remember the article of a NAD cd player a few years back. When it came out at $450.00US they said it beat every mega thousand player of just 4 years prior. This theory is take it or leave it but the difference of a cd player is the DAC. Get a DAC to go with your current player - choose wisely.

The difference in a CD player is mostly NOT the DAC. I've heard many CD players using the same DAC, and they do NOT all sound the same. While a good quality DAC is absolutly nessasary for good sound, the real difference in CD players is the quality of componants that they are built with. The DAC outputs are mated to an amplifier in all CD players that are not just transports. The quality of this line level amplifer makes a large difference in the sound, just as a quality amp, or preamp would. The best amp companies also make great CD players too. Ever wonder why?

Oh and yes, I've heard the Meridian, and I was NOT overly impressed. To me the Arcam 92 is a much better buy.

[RGA]

I'm not saying there is zero measured difference but using Arcam as an example is a bad one. The alpha 7,8 and 9 were identical players with the difference being the DAC upgrade. The 9 had a better dac same transport same parts.

I go off my own experiences and PRICE has absolutely nothing to do with sound quality when it comes to a CD player. There is a simple three parts to a cd player.

1) reading the bits off the disc and sending it to the DAC. ALL new DACs buffer the information 100% correctly whether it is a $50.00 Transport or $50,000.00 transport. Audio Note is a bit different as they use a no times oversampling system and the transport may play a more important role...but I dunno since they sell $50,000 DACs and $400.00-$1800.00 Transports.

2) The conversion of the DAC - different DAC different conversion = different sound --period.

3) the output stage. A CD player is effectively a pre-preamp - here is where the manufacture can deliberately alter the signal or you are correct completely ruin it.


Times are changing. When I bought the mega changer it was more as a toy to put the discs I don't much listen to in and use it for background music. It is slightly less full sounding than the Cambridge - but unlike players a decade ago it's not harsh or bright and is more than satisfactory - certainly not outclassed by any 1kUS player. It has a digital out so provided you by a buffering dac which will reclock the player to a perfect zero(or negligable jitter) match and that the dac has a good output stage you should be fine.

This is the reason they sell external DACs - not just to replace the DAC but also replace the output stage(pre-preamplifier stage) of the cheapie cd players.

There has to be a measureable difference within the audible spectrum at volume levels people can hear. The measurements of JUST the transport very expensive versus very cheap have not been done lately and the ones that were done show extremely tiny differences at -90db which no one can hear - and what's worse no one can even tell from the measurement which would be better - the expensive one could be worse!!

If people are trying to fix a bright sound - they should be buying Audio Note loudspeakers and getting rid of speakers utilizing drivers of a totally different design(like metal tweeters)before spending thousands on a cd player which MIGHT alter the sound in the treble delibertely to fix bad speakers.

[46minaudio]

I wont get into SQ diference between CD players .If you must spend 1500$ get the 563a DVDv,SACD,DVDa player for around 150$ then put another 5 to 600$ into a good sub.This way you will hear a real difference...If a cd has information down to 25hz the sub will produce it..The only problem I can think of going this way is you wont be able to tell friends and family you have an audiophile grade 1500$ cd player..(even though you will have one that sounds just as good and is capable of all formats).The plus side is you will have an extra 750$ to spend on music..This is another area you will hear real differences..

[nusiclover]

isnt there anybody out there that can give a pro-expensive cd post? LOL
all i know is that the toshiba dvd player i am currently using can be beat. the means to that end is what i am trying to figure out. anyways, after last nights bills i have decided to postpone buying anything for the next 2 months. this should give me plenty of time to sort through this cd/transport/dac/dvd/dvd-a/sacd/universal/tube stuff to the closest -90db possible. wait, sorry, from what i know i cant hear down to -90db, so disregard this part.
i have discovered that AMPS make a difference, SPEAKERS make a difference, INTERCONNECTS make a difference, and im in the process of figuring out speaker cables. Something tells me that cd format players must also make a difference. Which one i like best, is what im working on.
Thanks for everyones posts- these help me decide for myself.

i have one more thing to add: reviewers in magazines and online have different characteristics they associate with different players- this alone suggests that players do in fact sound different. Ive read a few food comparisons here throught my time, most of which i found silly, but heres mine: to me See's chocolates are better than Godiva even though they are cheaper and i can surely find a thousand reviews that would disagree with me, perhaps millions. But, so what? at my local mall these two stores are kiddy corner to each other, and i always go for the See's. While you may say "thats because you are cheap when it comes to chocolate" i would simply state that any time someone else has offered to buy me chocolate i still ask for See's. Maybe this makes me a less greedy person because i dont want someone else to spend more money on me, or maybe i truly do prefer the taste of See's chocolates. My point is not to get all of you craving chocolate, or thinking whether you are greedy or not, but to say that it very well may be that a $500 cd player will in fact sound better to someone over the $1500 one. This is why i truly believe that when buying any audio component, unless the prices are outrageously different, just pretend they cost the exact same, then decide which you like best. This is greatly uttainable without bias by doing DBTests. This is how i discovered audible differences and preferences between speakers and even more true for interconnects.

[RGA]

First of all ignore the stuff about DBT's. They're a tool one of many - but the way they're used in audio is not telling. You cannot prove two items sound the same with a DBT - it's in the definition. They are not valid tests either. And since you cannot prove anything using them then you can't disprove anything with them either. The probelm is engineers are conducting the tests - engineers are not scientists and know nothing about psychological testing - if they had the remotest knowledge of relatively new brain research they would not be spouting the tests. None of this however means you can just believe in whatever a sales ad or someone tells you about a unit. Any audio company can deliberately make something that alters the sound...many of them do it so their product can sound different. The fact that it is not detected in a dbt should tell you more about the value of the test than anything else. And Hi-Fi choice magazine tests products in a panel blind and level matched...they even have MANUFACTURERS come in and be part of the panel. And the hilarious part is they often don't choose their own product as the BEST in the test group.

No one can say that a cd player won't improve the sound what I'm saying is that JUST because it's expensive and has a big name means nothing. I have listened to various cd players through a line level headphone amp with my own HD600s level matched and you'd be surprised. I heard a $1100.00 Sony ES single disc player versus their $289.00 Carousel and could not tell a difference. The Rega planet at $1200.00 sounded very different - to me worse than the Sony's because the designer was adding some sort of reverberation effect. About a year later I read a review that LOVED the player and mentioned that there was a reverberation...two independant assessments of the same player with the same impression of sound. I ended up with a Cambridge Audio CD6 for several reasons. It doesn't have any bad habits but it had more to do with the fact that the transport is identical to the companies' Disc Magic Transport and has 8 independant power supplies for the DACs and also has Balanced connections. Far more transport for the dollar than competitors.

DACs today buffer howecver unlike the older ones so it doesn't matter - but I got the Cambridge cheaper than others so no regrets. Compared to my mega changer and this is subjective it has more depth - the dac and output stage are different the sound is different - the Sony at 1/3 the price and 20 times the features(and fun factor) is NOT outclassed on sound quality - there is no doubt the two are different.

Toshiba's DVD players were noted to have some truly terrible CD replay. Many players probably use the dirt cheap leftovers.

Consider it this way. Can you see any difference between any DVD player's picture quality? The principle is EXACTLY the same. The Digital to analog converter converts digital into an image. Some dvd players are so bad that the bars at the top and bottom are almost gray while other players are too black and that is after trying to fiddle. There are clear differences between the video of DVD players - and there ARE measurable difference wihin the audible spectrum of DACs. Burr Brown had several DACs with measurements and one had a huge spike at 10khz - 6-10db --- Peaple say certain cd players are bright or fatiguing after a while. While 10khz would be passed over in a short a/b test after a few hours it is possible such a thing could grow tiresome especially if it's some sort of distortion(which it is). Burr Brown makes zero claim about the sound differences however. Hi Fi choice listens blind and levels matched the difference is instead of trying to hear a difference they listen more close to a regular environment with an assumed difference and therefore listening for something different...tiny differences to more closely resemble a valid listening environment as opposed to a test - which is never the same and more invalid. Psychologists know this of course.

If you look at issue 69 of UHF you will see the measurement of the Audio Note DAC 1 transport and DAC and you can look at the other cd player under reviewer and you will see wildly different measurements within the audible spectrum at a normal level. Audio Note according to Martin Colloms one of the world's for most experts on audio design rates Audio Note's Dac 5 as the best Digital to Anolog converters available. http://www.colloms.com/

I still think though that a cheap 300 disc player should be good enough for most people. Since you can upgrade woith a better dac why not have ALL the features of the Mega changer as well as ALL the sound quality from the external DAC? And you may, like me, be very very pleasantly surprised with the Sony 355's sound. And you know the FUNNY part. People on about the stability of the expensive transports. Well WEIGH it versus a fully loaded 300 disc player....the latter is far more sturdy!! :)

[magictooth]

[QUOTE=nusiclover]isnt there anybody out there that can give a pro-expensive cd post? QUOTE]
Well, I like to think that I can tell the difference between a cheap DVDP and a more expensive version. However, that doesn't mean that these differences will be audible or pleasing to the next guy.

I saw that you were looking at the Audio Note 1.1x DAC before. If you're still interested, I'm willing to part with mine for $750 + shipping. I will guarantee that it works and looks perfectly. I live in Canada. While I think that the unit sounds pretty good, it doesn't quite have all the characteristics that I'm looking for. This offer is also good for RGA if you want it.

[nusiclover]

rga: thanks for the knowledge. you sure know enough...and you sure love audio note :)

magictooth: i havent really decided upon dac vs. cdp yet...but thanks for the offer.

[92135011]

Actually, AN is officially out of the transport business for good.
Brian Smith, one of Peter Qvortrup's associates said that many transports were reported to have problems. They were sent back to the labs in the UK where they underwent a week-long stress test. No problems. However, because of the numerous complaints, they are no longer producing transports.

While we are at it, what do you guys think are good transports? The junky one that's part of my current boombox cant even stand some light taps before skipping. In addition, it gives an annoying CD motor noise. It's this high pitch ringing that even produces some sort of noise in the speakers. ANNOYING. No more boom box for me soon...cuz once you hear the better stuff...its hard to go back.