New Amp

[frenchmon]

Just want to mention I picked up a spanking brand new amp. Its the Vincent Sp-331 MK hybrid and this thing out of the box is outstanding! Not syrupy warm like some tubes and not hard like some SS. Just enough tube goodness to add texture to the instruments....flesh on the bones. My room is like 18X 18 or something like that so I play at moderate levels so I dont think I will ever come out of Class A....the low level listening is so clean and you can hear all the detail of the little nuances...I love this amp already.... More after this thing gets run in....im just letting a CD loop for now....oh I did play one Album....Chet Baker and Bill Evans "Alone Together" Wax Time reproduction 180G....and It had so much emotion and romance...Thiis is the perfect amp to let all the detail and warmth of the 2M Black shine though... I am over joyed and its not even run in. More later.

[JohnMichael]

Sounds like a great sound experience with your new amp. I would love to hear it sometime. Keep us posted on any improvements you hear.

[blackraven]

Glad to hear you like the new amp. I wish I could hear it. Vincent seems to make some nice gear.

[Feanor]

I'll be interested in you further impressions. The Vincent hybrid has had some very good reviews.

[frenchmon]

This thing has changed back and forth. I was beginning to be worried for a while because out the box it was really nice, then the highs became like lost. So I took off the Pangea power cord and the small subtle nuances returned some, but the over all sound became dark and I'm not about a dark amp. There was a lot of texture to the instruments especially piano and strings, a very pronounce bass and the mids became very noticable....a little to noticeable. I mean this thing was really changing for the worse. Then I had a hunch. In the Vincent preamp...about 4 months ago I took out the Gold Line tubes and put in some Mullards. The Mullards where great, and they helped to mask some of the brightness of the Rotel amp I had been using. The Mullards are much warmer than the Gold Line tubes, have a better stage than the GL, a very very nice mid section than GL, and a much deeper bass than the GL.....the Mullards, in my opinion are a much better tube and will give you all the tube goodness you need......but it has to be the right system. The Mullards where great with the Vincent Preamp with the bright Rotel amp. But the Mullards are not so great with the Vincent preamp and the Vincent hyrid amp which uses tubes that are already on the warm side. The Mullards where the problem. So I replaced them with the Gold Lion tubes and wala! All my magic is backl. The GL dont have the stage as the Mullards, nor do they play as loud as the Mullards, and about the only thing they do better than the Mullards is not be as sweet sounding and I dont need that with this amp. Its already sweet enough It very neutral ....not syrupy nor bright but just right as far as tone goes. I wish the GL did some of those other things as well as the Mullards and yet remain open as it is now, but ...this will give me a chance to do some tube rolling and I can now get those tubes LeRoy has been telling me to get. The RadiotechniqueTubes.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, you have to give the stock tubes about 30hrs of play time to break in. But I'm glad that you like the replacement tubes.

[frenchmon]

Hi Raven....I never bothered the tubes in the New Vincent Amp, but It was the Mullards in the Vincent preamp I was talking about. Sense then, the system is sounding really nice. The Vincent SP-331 MK is all that and a bag of chips. I have about 20 hours on her and it sounds really nice now....it sounds better now than when I first switched out the tubes in the preamp. All the reviews I've read where spot on except the Absolute sound that said it was a little on the dark side. I think its very neutral and the tones are spot on. You can feel the emotion of the artist. What I have noticed is that the mids have opened up just right. And according to the reviews I've read, its still running in....it takes about 40 to 50 hours to fully run in. I cant wait to get a new power cord and the New Analysis Plus Solo Crystal interconnect.

[blackraven]

Keep us posted. I am eventually going to replace my Parasound A21. I would like to go with a high powered hybrid tube amp like the Vincent or a Van Alstine 400R or 600R. A used Pass amp or Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks may fit the bill. The $5000pr Nuforce amps canbe had for $2K used.

[LeRoy]

This thing has changed back and forth. I was beginning to be worried for a while because out the box it was really nice, then the highs became like lost. So I took off the Pangea power cord and the small subtle nuances returned some, but the over all sound became dark and I'm not about a dark amp. There was a lot of texture to the instruments especially piano and strings, a very pronounce bass and the mids became very noticable....a little to noticeable. I mean this thing was really changing for the worse. Then I had a hunch. In the Vincent preamp...about 4 months ago I took out the Gold Line tubes and put in some Mullards. The Mullards where great, and they helped to mask some of the brightness of the Rotel amp I had been using. The Mullards are much warmer than the Gold Line tubes, have a better stage than the GL, a very very nice mid section than GL, and a much deeper bass than the GL.....the Mullards, in my opinion are a much better tube and will give you all the tube goodness you need......but it has to be the right system. The Mullards where great with the Vincent Preamp with the bright Rotel amp. But the Mullards are not so great with the Vincent preamp and the Vincent hyrid amp which uses tubes that are already on the warm side. The Mullards where the problem. So I replaced them with the Gold Lion tubes and wala! All my magic is backl. The GL dont have the stage as the Mullards, nor do they play as loud as the Mullards, and about the only thing they do better than the Mullards is not be as sweet sounding and I dont need that with this amp. Its already sweet enough It very neutral ....not syrupy nor bright but just right as far as tone goes. I wish the GL did some of those other things as well as the Mullards and yet remain open as it is now, but ...this will give me a chance to do some tube rolling and I can now get those tubes LeRoy has been telling me to get. The RadiotechniqueTubes.

Ya man, tubes add another dimension to the presentation and those La Radiotechnique Tubes still remain the benchmark sound for my tastes. Are you needing AX7, AU7, or AT7 tubes?

Congrats on the newest Vincent addition! :)

[frenchmon]

Keep us posted. I am eventually going to replace my Parasound A21. I would like to go with a high powered hybrid tube amp like the Vincent or a Van Alstine 400R or 600R. A used Pass amp or Nuforce Model 9se monoblocks may fit the bill. The $5000pr Nuforce amps canbe had for $2K used.

Raven...I've heard the Alstine 400R when Peabody had it, and comparing to the Vincent Sp-331 MK...they are more apart then alike...but know doubt both are great amps. The Alstine is not as warm as the Vincent, and the Vincent is not that warm. With the Vincent you know there is tubes....with the Alstine, unless you know it does, or have supper dupper hearing you wont know it has tubes. Both have their certain amount of liveliness...with the Alstine having more than the Vincent. But there is no doubt both are great at what they do. The Alstiine had more of a sound like when I had my Rotel power amp connected to my Vincent tube preamp. It was a nice hybrid lively sound. Just a hint of tubes. But now that I have that same Vincent preamp connected to this Vincent Hybrid amp, there is more tube goodness...more texture to the music and a lot more resolution. I am listening to Shirley Horn sining "Estate" and its really sounding better than I remember with the old set up.

The Pass Labs are a great amp as well. To my hearing it does everything right! After listening to my Vincent and having heard Peabody's Pass Labs with the MOSFETS I would say Peabody's Pass is a little warmer. I wonder how Frank can make the 400R sound so lively with those MOSFETS and tubes?

[frenchmon]

Ya man, tubes add another dimension to the presentation and those La Radiotechnique Tubes still remain the benchmark sound for my tastes. Are you needing AX7, AU7, or AT7 tubes?

Congrats on the newest Vincent addition! :)

Hey buddy! Well I can use the Ax7's and Au7's because I have slots for both. But I think I may get the U7 and try them out just to see what they are like.

[harley .guy07]

I know the head guy at Audio Adviser raves about the Vincent SP-331 and Especially the MK model which from what he says a huge upgrade from the normal model. I have never heard Vincent gear but I did study it as an option when I was looking at amps for my system. I ended up getting a great deal on a used Pass Labs x150.5 so I went for it and love the thing to death. I knew I would because I love everything Nelson Pass has touched since I was younger and also Mr P. and I share like tastes in the way out system sounds and I have never been happier. But I would not mind listening to a hybrid someday just to see what some people love about them.

[frenchmon]

Hey Harley! Yes thats a very nice Kit... that Pass Labs. The Vincent has nice tones and romance. And the slam of SS. Very nice mids as well. Its really nice. I will speak more about it later,

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, the Vincent sounds like what I could be looking for. I like a warmer sound. As far as the Van Alstine 400R and 600R amps are concerned. They have multiple regulated power supplies and there is never and voltage sag. The amps are very dynamic but I too found them to lean a little on the bright side. They can benefit from some tube rolling.

[harley .guy07]

Van Alstine is another one I have never heard but a lot of forums I go to the people that own them love them and are usually switching from really good stuff to them so must be doing something right. I know Mr P. tried one of the hybrids( i believe the 400r) and for some reason it did not work for him but I would have loved to have heard it for myself as Van Alstine was another company I kept my eye on as I shopped for amps before scoring my Pass. But then again your Parasound A21 seems to get equally good press from owners and publications on how good it is especially for the price and it continually earns ranks as one of the top amps in its price class. My question to you is what the Parasound does or does not do that makes you want to move to something else. I just wanted to know because I came very close to just buying a brand new A21 myself because it was around the price of the Pass but I decided that a Pass even used was a Pass "you had me at Pass" for a little Jerry Maquire humor.

[blackraven]

Harely, I like the A21 a lot, but it has a touch of grain to it. It is a very neutral sounding amp and I would like something that leans a touch on the warmer side, has more detail and transparency. The best attributes of the A21 are that it never sounds strained, it has excellent bass and bass control (the dampening factor is greater than 1,000), it is very musical and dynamic with excellent PRAT and sounds great through the entire frequency range. Sound stage is wide and transparency is good. However, when I took home a Van Alstine 600R amp to review I was astounded to hear the difference in sound quality. The 600R made compressed recordings sound great with good air, wide sound stage and dynamics. Plus the level of detail and spacing between instruments was fantastic. But comparing the 2 amps are like comparing apples to oranges. The A21 sold for $2100 when I bought it ( I paid $1850 though) and the 600R sells for $3K but would sell for $1500 to $2000 more if sold by a retailer. I will say this about the A21, it was the best amp that I heard in its price range and it performs above its price point. You rarely see them for sale on the used market.

I would like to make the jump to the next level of amplifier. I was thinking about buying a pair of Magnepan 3.7's but after hearing how good my 1.6's sounded with a higher end amp, I think that the amp is the way to go.

[Hyfi]

Congrats on the new amp. Lots to be said about a hybrid amp. My Counterpoint was one of the earlier ones. When I got it, it still had original Counterpoint branded tubes in it but needed repair. Along with the repair, it was retubed (not the rectifiers) with Electro Harmonix 6DJ8s. I knew it was lacking and after talking with a guy who had similar CP gear, he sent me a few older RCA 6FQ7s that rocked. He also sent me some new NOS EZ81 Rectifiers which I am using along with a new set of early 60s 6FQ7 RCA Cleartops. They made a pretty big difference for sure.

All Tube Pre with Hybrid Amp is a real nice combo. Looking forward to further updates.

[frenchmon]

Raven...this amp is crazy! It has changed about 4 times already....out the box it was great, then it was bad sounding, then it was great again, then the bass was very soft, now every thing is great again. I read a few online reviews and one guy said he had the same problem as me. He said after 40 hours it was run in. Another guy said to let it run in a full three weeks. I called Audioadvisor and they said 100 hours run in. Finally called the US distributor up in Minnesota and they said 100-150 hours before she is finished. I have a little over 40 hours now and she is starting to come into her own. The amp is great! It has every thing. Its a tad right of neutral making it a tad dark but not by much. Tube rolling could change that I suppose. But other than that its sounding great and still coming into her own. You can listen to it and tell its tubes and the really good midrange a good tube unit can give you. I listen at moderate levels so I doubt if I ever come out of class A. So after I get her all burned in, I will get new interconnect...still pretty much set on the Solo Crystal by Analysis plus, but have not settled on a new power cord as of yet. I think I an leanign towards the Oval 9 speaker cables as well. One other thing....with this amp, I think I am finding more and more badly recorded CD's and Vinyl in my collection...thats a bummer.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hey Frenchie, how are things going with your new amp? Have you introduced any of the cables that you mentioned into your system yet? We haven't heard from you in awhile.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, how does the 331's sound stage, air and transparency compare to the 400R? I found that the 600R had great spacing between instruments and made compressed music sound spacious. The 400R sounds so lively because of the multiple Mosfets and multiple regulated power supplies used, hence the R in the name. I am intrigued by your review of the 331 and may eventually buy one from Audio Adivsor since they have a 30 day return policy. I would love to compare it to one of Van Alstines new Synergy amps which was designed from the ground up to give a tube sound from a solid state amp. It certainly is warmer and more tube like than the R series amps.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, how does the 331's sound stage, air and transparency compare to the 400R? I found that the 600R had great spacing between instruments and made compressed music sound spacious. The 400R sounds so lively because of the multiple Mosfets and multiple regulated power supplies used, hence the R in the name. I am intrigued by your review of the 331 and may eventually buy one from Audio Adivsor since they have a 30 day return policy. I would love to compare it to one of Van Alstines new Synergy amps which was designed from the ground up to give a tube sound from a solid state amp. It certainly is warmer and more tube like than the R series amps.'

Hi Raven...the Vincent sounds nothing like what I heard of the 400R. I believe the Vincent is more inline with what I heard on Peabodys Pass Labs system. A little different in tone, but staging...air and all the above. Peabodys room is larger than mine but mine is a dedicated music room with some sound treatments...Peabodys is not a dedicated room. So it could have been thats why I can hear things with the Vincent and not with the AVA gear. So I can hear petty good how the system behaves in my room. My room is about 18x14x8..

This is what I sent to my dealer and Peabody:
Ok...I've about close to a 100 hours, about 80 hours. This is an incredible sound coming from this system and I would have to say its the amp that's taken things up more than a notch or two....my system has evolve into something above the cut as far as hi-fi and into a different category or class of sound well above what I've paid. Its really amazing...the Vincent preamp/Rotel combination never came close to what I am hearing. The transparency, staging, air and sense of putting you in a venue listening to live music with certain recordings was never there with the old set up, but the all Vincent combination gives you a sense of atmosphere heard in gear much more expensive. I think it wants speakers that are able to deliver what it has to offer, or you wont hear all the little nuances its has to offer.

It so refreshing to listen to your old collection of music and discover you've never really heard it like you're hearing it now....the Vincent has a much more different interpretation of music from what I was previously hearing and has also let me hear things in the music I've never noticed before.

The Vincent, after the 80 hours, and looking back of how its come to this point, changed in sonic and dynamics and for the better each step of the way. I have never seen anything like it. Wylie has the same amp/preamp paring, but I noticed your amp is back in the box sitting in his basement, and the preamp is sitting on a shelf in your music room not being used. The reason could be, you ran out of patience during run in, and I can see why, it takes a whyle to run this baby in. But you are now running the Vincent integrated amp and also a Bel Canto rig as well...., I wondering if the integrated amp delivers like the seperates.....I doubt the Bel Canto is giving this kind of performance....but I could be wrong.

The high frequencies are one of the last things to come into its own with this amp. Wylie, I do remember you complaining about the highs that time I came over when you first got the amp. It takes a while for it to burn in. Even I thought the amp had a slightly dark nature to it because of the dark high frequencies, but it seems I had a false reading of the character....the high frequencies have burned in and are very transparent. I once had a Threshold amp in my system and it was about the most transparent amp I had ever heard. The Vincent I believed has surpassed that amp in transparency. Due to my false reading of the character of this amp, I mistakenly thought it had a dark nature, but there is nothing dark about it....the SP-331MK is a very neutral amp and far from boring. there is nothing out of balance from top to bottom, and the texture of the instruments is life like....skin on the bones, so to speak. There is no thin sounding instruments with this amp. It has a certain sweetness because of the tubes, especially when if warms up, but nothing syrupy in the sweetness, but it adds the texture that we all know tubes can add. And it has the slam of some of the best SS amps I have ever heard, if the recording has it. 'That's the beauty of a hybrid amp...its really the best of both worlds if its done correctly and Vincent has done it right. One of the things of a good neutral transparent amp is the ability to let what ever is connected to it have its nature shine through. Thus the Vincent is excellent at this. While it does have its own character, it lets the nature of your sources shine though and you know it right away. Of all the things the Rotel did right, this was not one of them. the Rotel imparted its own character on every source connected to it. I would say one of the strong points of this amp is the bass. Its very good at adding that needed weight through out the entire spectrum of sound, giving body to the entire sound. It also has the PRaT thing down really really good, but not over powering like I've heard before with some other gear. It too has a very good midrange, but the high frequencies, which have come on through run in as of late, are really special. There is no edge what so ever...in the beginning they where really hard to hear, and cymbals where hard and kinda splashy, they did improve after about 40 hours, but now with more run in they are like lush with definition and detail without ever sounding splashy or hard, and never ear bleed or fatigue. In all honesty, these are the best cymbal taps I have ever heard at any price point I've listen too.

You know...we've all heard, and every body uses that old saying that's attached to a lot of gear..." its more sound than what the price dictates" or something on those lines. I can honestly say those words about this paring. In fact Vincent has all along said they designed in German, and build in China to push the extra saving onto the consumer. This is the first time I have ever believed that due to what I am hearing. For what is capable with this amp and price paid, the performance is way ahead of the price. And there is also excellent build quality to boot.

And I have not even added the new cabling and power cord yet. I have yet to really tell you how the low level listening is, nor the effects the Class A has on the sound. Oh, if there is any one that thinks Class A is only at moderate levels with this amp, they really have no ideal how loud 10 watts can be...especially with the right speakers. Just talk to some SET amp owners and they can tell ya. My speakers are 87db and I have never been out of Class A with this amp. But I will save that for more on the update along with sound staging and imaging which are also some of the best I've heard. I will post more at a later date, but if any one wants to spend a little more and are looking to add an amp on their way to getting off the merry go round, have a look at the Vincent SP-331...and if you really want to add the preamp SA-T1, you wont be sorry. I can guarantee....you will encounter a very emotional connection with your system through the music if they system is set up right....we talk about speakers disappearing....how about an amp making things disappear due to the lovely music your listening too. I'm getting that with this paring.
__________________

[frenchmon]

One thing that I have noticed as much better is the staging of this amp. It is easy to hear the 3D effect in my music room. (More on that later). The Rotel did nothing like this. but the Vincent takes the music....puts all instruments in its own space...sorta spreads them out...gives everything dimension. (If the listener is sitting and a serious listener,) you can sorta see with your minds eye as well as hear the depth and space of instruments front to back, and what you hear is never a in your face presentation, but it begins slightly in front of speakers with the depth going back behind the speakers,....especially noticable with live recordings. With studio recordings you get a great sense of texture and space around the instruments with greater focus on it all as a unit playing together. I love the cymbal work from a good drummer...they sound so real but are never hard and fatigue.

A few years ago there was a buzz about a pianist....Brad Mehldau. So I purchased a CD...Brad Mehldau Trio live. After putting in the CD when I had the Rotel, I couldnt stand to listen after a few tracts. The CD was absolutely a terrible recording, and I thought the guy was an average muiscian at best....so I thought. The piano was in the left speaker and the drums and upright bass was in the right speakers with no sound in the middle...and this was a 2008 recording. After the first and second tune, the audience clapped and that two was in one speaker or the other with no imaging or sound stage worth nothing. I was disappointed in him and that CD for a few years after several times of trying to listen to it. Tried it again last night and its all the way different. Not only are the left and right speaker audible, but theres an image.... between the speakers are audible as well. There is a sound stage with depth! Brads talents shine, and everything is a unit. My Elaine Elias CD...."Brazilian Classics" with Jack DeJohnette/ Peter Erskine on drums and Marc Johnson/Eddie Gomez on bass is just wonderful. The drumming and Bass as the rhythm section is just flat out beautifully transparent and the attack of each is absolutely stunning to hear...these highly skilled musicians shine as I've never heard before. The bass has the deep wood like sound with deep tones of a upright bass and the cymbals once again sounding so real with excellent decay. The Vincent puts the whole presentation in a studio like presentation as if each musician is in their own space. The Rhythm of the drums and bass would make the most harden "SET amp" lover very proud, as the 10 watts Class A with is ability to decipher the music with fine tones, weight and substance is a pleasant surprise...I think it with the bass gives it the skin of the flesh so to speak,

My listening room, which is in a room in the basement, is very personal to me. The only other person who comes in there is my son. I have a carpet floor, and have nice rugs hanging behind and to the left side on the walls. Not the best but it servers its purpose well. the right side has a patio sliding glass door but most times I keep the blinds closed as not to get to much of a reflections. My ceiling has the rafters exposed. Some one once told me if no pads on ceiling its best to have the rafters exposed to keep reflections down. I cant hear a echo and I do have reflections down as much as possible with the little I've done. But through reading about room reflections, and hearing them in some of my friends listening rooms with no sound treatment what so ever is a big mistake in my book. I hear things in my listening room with my gear that I never heard in my friends listening room. I think its becasue a lack of any sound enhancements. Reflections can keep the finest detail from being audible. And can keep the sound stage from being heard in all its glory. One guy has Pass Labs gear, and the other has ARC and McIntosh gear.....gear just as good and perhaps better in technology and sonics than what I have. Both these guys are very proud and enjoy their gear as much as I do. But I wonder how much better we would enjoy it if we had better sound enhancing panels? I will make suggestions to my audio pals about sound, but once I get the few added pieces I need for my rig, the last thing is better sound enhancing material. I enjoy this hobby to much not to do as much as I can to help me enjoy it even more. More later.

[Hyfi]

Sounds like you have found some nice synergy there. It is amazing what you hear extra or different as you step up the chain.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, thanks for the review. I am going to have to give the amp a listen when I get the chance. I just may order one from AA so I can hear it and be able to return it. I don't want to make a lateral move from the A21.

[frenchmon]

Raven...have you decided to order the amp yet?

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, I will probably order the amp around Christmas. We are in the process of putting Brazilian Cherry wood floors in just about every room in the house and will be remodeling our master bath. I definitely want to hear the amp. Do you live in the KC area? I may be taking a trip down there in November.

I think that the only other amp that I am considering is a pair of used NuForce Model 9se monoblocks. They sell for $5K a pair but they can be had for about $2200 used. I would love to find a used Pass or CJ amp but they are going for a lot more. I may sell my boat next year and jump up to a $6K amp or maybe new speakers.

[frenchmon]

No I am in St.Louis. You should order one from Audioadvisor and let it run in.....I think you will love it.

[harley .guy07]

Yeah I played with the thought of getting the NuForce Model 9's my self since I really think a lot of my Nuforce preamp and I really thought about it a few times and almost pulled the trigger on a pair right before I seen My Pass amp on sale from a owner that had it priced to sell and I have not regretted it a minute. the way I see it the Vincent has some really good personal and professional reviews and it might just be the amp to try since with AA you have a return policy. You can't get better than that

[frenchmon]

As audio-hobbyist....Some times when you have such a good thing....and you know it, after a few, you just want to share it with other cats so they can listen as well. You know what I mean? Cause I'm hearing all this wonderful sound, but no one else is hearing it cause no one is around. You guys ever feel that vibe? I mean, because ima tooting my own horn over here, talkin like I got bragging rights, because of what I know I hear, and after a while, ima starting to ask self if its all in my head....you feel me? Am I making this up in my head or does this rig actually sound ridiculously.....,this, dog-gon good! I mean, the SP-331MK took my sound from one level of sound you get with your typical very good hi fi system to not sounding like that at all, but into the upper echelon of sound!

Now im not saying my systems in the level of what I would get with a rig with Tenor mono blocks with a Tenor preamp driving a Walker TT through a pair of supper high end Wilson speakers. Hell naw, my system is every bit of about $11k...nothing like a $200k RIG.But what I am saying....I am getting way beyond what a $2500 amp normally gives you....at least all of the ones I've heard and some even reaching up into the $3500 range as well. I'm getting sound in layers. I mean this sounds over there, thats over here, this is in the middle that sounds coming from the back, that sounds out front and that sounds in the middle and that singer sounds like she is right here and the back ground sings are right there. I even play black gospel choir music and the harmony is absolutely breath taking.... Its all in layers.

Yesterday I put in a CD that I know never ever sounded like this previously in my previous system or any of my previous systems...not even when I owned this same CD on vinyl back in the 80's when it was first released. In fact, there's many CD's and records I've played sense owning the Vincent, that seems to put you right there in the room or studio recording. Yeah, go ahead and give me the old "yeah that's BS" comment, fellas.... its real fellas....and if you aint heard it....well, you got something to strive for because its out there waiting to be discovered by you. I'm not talking about chasing after the "holy grail", cause that don't exist.....but I am talking about a level of sound that is attainable, even if what you heard in the past is believable, (its not sounding live ) because in all your audio-hobbyist days you've yet to hear it. Well THAT is what I felt was truth as well and never experienced it either, but no one else was either because no one has ever listen to the Vincent to see what I was hearing but me! Some how, and some way I convinced my self I was either hearing it or I was delusional. It was really starting to bug me.

Now let me sorta clarify...put into words what I mean here. I've heard people say "it sounds live". Well most of us, who have never experienced it, those of us not in the know, me included as well, would interpret that as one saying when they turn on their hi-fi and play music, its as if it sound like they are physically sitting right there in a live concert. Now that I have experienced it, that's not what they mean. Or at least, what I am experiencing is not as if I am sitting physically right in a live concert....But let me add...dam near it! Thats right...darn near it! Let me explain.

The Vincent is doing something different. Its creating what is called a Venue. It creates atmosphere. It creates the place where the action is taking place. Its as if its created the medium...the surrounding objects or perfect conditions as if you can feel like it real. You know how you watch a good movie and you are really into it as if you can feel your there, but you are sorta outside of the action of the moving looking in? I mean you see the car speeding down the street, hit the curb and flip over and crash into the huge glass window? You where right there and you saw it all as if you where standing there. That's sorta what the Vincent is doing....it puts you right there! Its the Venue, the atmosphere, its created it all right there for you.

Two days ago, I pulled out one of my favorite CD's...my Keith Jerrett with Charlie Haden, Paul Motian and MI MAN, Dewey Redman. Its the "Eye Of The Heart" CD. This is the last time they recorded together as a band and they all decided this would be their last time due to many problems they where having, but none bigger than Dewey Redman's habit of being late due to his wine drinking back stage. This is a great CD...not because of some screaming sax or great piano playing or loud drums...its the complete opposite. Out side of the melody most of it was repeated and made up as they where playing because as usual, Dewey was late getting on stage due to his wine consumption back stage. So Jarrett, Haden and Motion played the same thing over and over again with improvisations that stretched the song out, as they waited for Redman to show. All this is happening without the live audience knowing anything...to them it was just how they rolled, but Jarrett years later would explain what was really going on at the time. Well any way, when Redman did appear, he played the sax in a way I had never heard him play before. He played with so much bravado... romance and passion and the band seem to follow him as he built the sax solo into one of the most beautiful solo's on my all time top sax solo list...I mean full of passion! Turns out his delay due to wine drinking back stage, became one of my all time favorites as well as others who wrote about it years later. The Vincent captured and played it back just wonderful.... had a way of creating the atmosphere and space of the concert in a way that seems to put you there. You're sorta watching the entire thing as you listen. I mean you get a feel for the atmosphere of the concert hall as the 3 are improvising...and then as Redman walks out on stage the audience begains clapping as if he was the super star even though its Jarretts band. The piano, drums, sax and bass seems so real lik...like it was right there in your room, the textures of each instrument, the spacing and the depth...front to back as if you are live, right there....its with you as you listen. Mind you this is all a feeling you get by how good it all sounds.... The Vincent has created the VENUE! And this also goes for studio recordings as well....its like you are sitting there in the control booth and listening to play back of a freshly recorded CD.

But I began to wonder....You remember the Memorex tape commercials of yester year...."Is it live or is it memorex? Well I had been having one of those moments....is this in my head, or has the Vincent stepped up the game and created something fresh... this atmosphere? I had to have a second opinion. So I asked my buddy if he could have his wife drop him at my place and I would take him home. Peabody has Pass Labs separates and his rig is bumping...you know how we say it...off the chain! Well I always value his opinion because he can actually hear the music! If its crap he will tell you in a nice way...Peabody is always soft spoken, I wish I could learn that from him.:)

Well after firing up the rig, and putting on "Gerardo Frisina" vinyl "Join The Dance" he listening for a while, the first thing he said after listening was "WOW! The second thing he said was "how much you pay for that amp" and after I told him, he said something to the effect of "Man your getting way more sound than what you paid" or something to that effect. Later He went on to say the texture of the instruments had "flesh on the bones"...that the instruments sounded live, like they where in the room....like we where there. He also noted the stage and just how good it was and so forth and so on.

Now what is it about this Amp that pushed the rig onto another planet of performance? After all the only thing I changed out was amps....a very good Rotel amp too The Absolute Sound 2012 Editors' Choice Award" Vincent amp. I know a system is only as good as the weakest link. And that link was the Rotel amp in my system. I believe the Rotel had a very strong house sound that was over powering every thing in my system by pushing its sound through, and not letting the sources have their say. But the Rotel never created Atmosphere of the Venue. I've had the Musical Fidelity CDP 4 years now and only now can I really hear how great it sounds...as well as the TT. The Vento's I feel are some of the best speakers money can buy and I'm not just saying that because I own them, among other things it does well...they can adapt to any genre and do it well with a high level performance, and those who have a chance to hear them usually come away saying they are that good.

I believe because the Vincent is very good in the bass department, it, the bass sorta flavorises and adds to the instruments across the entire ban to give it that "flesh on the bones" which adds the life to the sound. I also believe the Vincent pairing of the amp and preamp may have created some magic as well. But I have no idea how it creates the atmophere of the Venue. That remains a mystery to me. All I know is that it does.

So for all those who say it will never sound like live music. I beg to differ on that front. Its not 100% transporting you into the building and sitting you down in a seat....but its doing something by bringing something special to the party that creates atmosphere. Like I said....I don't know how....all I know is that it does.

[Hyfi]

Interesting writeup. Hybrid amps do some things really well and coupled with the right pre, you get what you now have.

As far as it sounding live, I have never been on that boat for several reasons.
1- Most venues for concerts suck big time
2- Always cranked up too loud leading to distortion
3- bad room acoustics (places where they play hockey, basketball, or football never sound good)

I would never want my system to sound Live like that. Ever been to a Buddy Guy Concert? You would never want your system to sound like that either even though the music is awesome.
As for CDs or albums creating a Venue, unless they were recorded with all musicians together on the stage, I am unsure just what your system is doing. Most stuff anymore is recorded with each musician sitting in an isolated room with headphones on laying down a single track. Then an engineer puts all the tracks together and time corrects them. How can that sound like any Venue?

Anyway, glad you are happy with the setup.

[frenchmon]

lol! Yeah....I was just like you at one point. Then I got the Vincent amp added to my kit, which is in a dedicated 2 channel room with some sound treatment...maple boards for vibration control under gear and gear feet up off the platforms. And as Mr.Peabody said, great synergy with Vincent and Canton. But with the same room and tweaks the magic was not there with the Rotel amp. Once the SP-331 MK was in place, the atmosphere of the music changed for the better. At that point all I had understood about what they meant by live went out the window. I was no longer a non believer. It was as if I was looking into a live performance. the sound stage was right there. Peabody was at my house last week and we where swamping cables in a shoot out. The staging was so good with the different cables, Peabody and I and another friend where having a conversation about where the different cables placed the piano. You have to experience it HyFi. A very good system can give you a soundstage like you are there. I heard it on Peabodys Pass Labs and now my system.


Also...Sounds like you do a lot of loud rock concerts. I don't go to stuff like that any more. If I go its a small acoustic setting in a jazz club. no...when listening to my stereo its not like a loud rock concert....i dont even play loud music anymore and i doubt I reach 70 dbs or come out of class A..a system should be able to give you all you need in performance with out ear bleed levels...but if you like loud ear bleed levels more power to you. but my presentation seems to be in a room with atmosphere..a venue. Its almost like you are in a different place listening to a performance with the way the amp creates a space you can see into with the different spacing and depth of the instruments. There are actually layers of sound. Hyfi...if your system is not giving you that...perhaps you have not reached that level of performance yet. I know others who have...Peabody certainly has...and I have....now you have something to shoot for with your rig. from what you are saying..sounds like you have no depth or 3D and a flat sound stage....you may only have a wall of sound with nothing else. If so, you have no synergy at all.

[Hyfi]

Your kinda preaching to the choir, and I wasn't taking shots at your setup.

I went from an Odyssey Stratos - Sound Valves 101i pre, to a Counterpoint Hybrid along with a Reference Pre of it's day, the VAC CLA1 MKII, driving von Schwiekert speakers.

I have a clue.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hyfi, I understand where you're coming from. I don't want my system to sound like a live performance either. Frenchie we get it that you like your setup, but it ain't cool to tell someone else that their system has problems if they're not hearing what you're hearing.

[blackraven]

Frenchmon, I get what you are saying and especially about the live sound. My Maggies give a live presentation to acoustic guitar, horns and piano. Vocals are to die for as well.

It sounds like you have found your audio nirvana. It's great that the Vincent has transformed your system. I wish that I lived closer and could hear it. I have a very good friend that recently moved to New Mexico. He was into high end audio and we would spend hours listening to music at his house and mine. I developed a great appreciation for other peoples gear. Its always fun to share and enjoy music with a friend.

[frenchmon]

Thanks for understanding Raven.


Jack and Hyfi....wasnt trying to put down his gear....Just stating maybe his system wasnt doing the things I mentioned.

and ahhh...Hyfi....there are many recording sessions that have a band in one room while recording. Cheskey Records is known for that....many of there recordings are recorded in a church with one special mic out front. These are some great SACD's. And there are some that don't. But the technology of today is still able to give a outstanding recording that's very enjoyable. I have a CD by Elaine Elias recorded in a studio. The recording has great space and air and 3D depth. Wonderful sound stage with layers of sound. Its as if you where there listening. It sound as if you where in the recording studio, in the play back room, listening as if they had just done the recording. It too has atmosphere. I have a live recording of Shirley Horn on vinyl. Audiophile recording. And the system puts you there. I sit and listen....I never have music as back ground music in my two channel room. I don't do serious listening as an audiophile...there comes a time when you have to take off the audiophile hat and put on the music lovers hat and be moved by the music for total enjoyment. I'm sure you know where I'm coming from.

[Hyfi]

Hyfi, I understand where you're coming from. I don't want my system to sound like a live performance either. Frenchie we get it that you like your setup, but it ain't cool to tell someone else that their system has problems if they're not hearing what you're hearing.

No worries Jack, I know exactly what he was saying.

Good thing I am planning to go Dumpster Diving with the boys from AK this weekend with high hopes of finding an killer Sansui so I can retire my tired old VAC-Counterpoint garbage.

[Jack in Wilmington]

No worries Jack, I know exactly what he was saying.

Good thing I am planning to go Dumpster Diving with the boys from AK this weekend with high hopes of finding an killer Sansui so I can retire my tired old VAC-Counterpoint garbage.

See if you can find me an old Kenwood while you're in there.

[frenchmon]

No worries Jack, I know exactly what he was saying.

Good thing I am planning to go Dumpster Diving with the boys from AK this weekend with high hopes of finding an killer Sansui so I can retire my tired old VAC-Counterpoint garbage.

Oh yeah? Then tell me what you think I was saying?

[Hyfi]

Oh yeah? Then tell me what you think I was saying?

Well first of all, if you go back and re-read my original comment, you will see this
"As for CDs or albums creating a Venue, unless they were recorded with all musicians together on the stage, I am unsure just what your system is doing."

My comments about a system sounding live were intended for all recordings except for those where the musicians are actually sitting together. I never said I don't have a soundstage, separation and placement of instruments and the rest of the good sound when playing good recorded music.

You took it upon yourself to belittle my setup, without ever hearing it, and without reading my statements correctly. You just assume now that because you have a decent rig and room that the rest of us are missing out on everything.

I have Chesky recordings and use them to demo all the characteristics you describe above. And for the most part, they use 2 Omni Mics, 1 for each channel. I have plenty of "you are there" recordings.

[frenchmon]

Ok...fair enough, I owe you an apology. I apologize Hy fi.....wasnt meant or trying to run shot or be a put down man. I apologies for what I said.

[Hyfi]

Ok...fair enough, I owe you an apology. I apologize Hy fi.....wasnt meant or trying to run shot or be a put down man. I apologies for what I said.

No sweat. Glad the sound is good.