Just wondering....

[frenchmon]

Has anyone been keeping up with the Zimmerman trial? And what are your thoughts?

[JohnMichael]

Guilty! George did everything wrong. If he had stayed in his car like the dispatcher suggested. Knock, knock

[JohnMichael]

At the very beginning the police handled it poorly.

[Hyfi]

Yeah, kinda hard to shoot someone if your not packin and you stayed in your car.

[dean_martin]

When I was home for lunch, CNN was going on about the weight Zimmerman had gained and it's impact on the jury. I didn't have much time to get fully up to speed so I could be wrong about the following:

Apparently the judge originally decided to keep out many of Zimmerman's earlier calls to 911 for other incidents (not related to Trayvon). But I think he has revisited that ruling.

Other tidbits:
The prosecution's opening statement lasted about 30 mins. and defense's opening lasted 2 1/2 hours.
When I was watching, the witness on the stand was on the phone with Trayvon when Zimmerman confronted him. That's the first time I had heard that Trayvon was on the phone with someone.

[frenchmon]

Well it seems like this case could be over already and its day 3. Zimmerman said Trvon banged his head on the concrete. Well where the body lay its to far from the concrete. One witness says she saw the scuffle but could not make out who was who because it was to dark outside. But she did say when they where on the ground, she saw the guy on top that was doing the punching get up and the other guy never moved after that. So during cross, they asked who was the biggest person, and she said Zimmerman. He said how do you know who was bigger it was dark? She said I saw the pictures the next day on tv thats how I know who was bigger. The defense then said so you saw it on tv and determined it was George who was bigger and Martin smaller? (he is trying to impeach her testimony)
She said yes. The defense then showed her pictures of Martin and asked is this one of the pictures? She said yes. Then they said "do you know thats a piecture of Martin when he was 13? (trying to discredit her testimony) Defense said "thats all". Then the prosecutor got back up to rebut. He asked her "who got up...the person on the bottom or the person on top?" She then answered "The guy on top got up" Then the prosecutor said he was done. The reason why that is so important is because Zimmerman said he was on the bottom when he shot Martin. And had to turn him over to get him off of him. If that is so, why did the guy on top get up and walk away?

The next witness called was the girl talking to Martin right before he got shot. She was great...the defense tried to impeach her, but her testimony was powerful. As she was talking to Martin, he said some guy was following him....but the most inmportant part is she said Martin said "get off me! get off me! That shows that Zimmerman was the agressor and not Martin. The only hang up is the jury. Any thing can go wrong with a jury. Its clear in my book....Zimmerman is a murder. Oh and they have about 50 calls where Zimmerman has made those same exact calls to 911. They played 4 of them in court. It seems Zimmerman was on the hunt for black guys in his hood because they have had a rash of break ins over the years. So every black guys in his mind was in one group and all guilty....his words to the 911 guy on the phone was "they always get away" meaning those black guys who come into my hood. Zimmerman was a profiler.

[JohnMichael]

Judging by George's weight gain I would have to say he was robbing Mr. Martin for his skittles.

[frenchmon]

I wish it was only skittles....But its to bad he really robbed the kid of his life...so sad.

[Feanor]

Zimmerman might well get off and that might be the right verdict under the law -- too bad maybe but guilt has to be established beyond reasonable doubt.

How many here have been jury members in a criminal trial? I was, I know that a person might well be guilty but that if proof beyond reasonable doubt just isn't there, verdict must be "Not guilty".

Let's look at the bigger picture. What's a neighbourhood watch volunteer doing carrying a gun? (It wouldn't be permitted in Canada and if watch guy shot somebody he would be charged with murder ipso facto. But Zimmerman was allowed to have a gun: did having one embolden him? I dare say it did.

And then there's "Stand Your Ground Law" that permits deadly force without first attempting to evade a violent confrontation. If Zimmerman confronts Martin who then attacks him, who's to say Zimmerman didn't shoot in self-defence? Only physical evidence that proves beyond reasonable doubt that Zimmerman was not, in fact, dangerously threatened, otherwise he must be acquitted.

Incidentally racism might have been a factor with Zimmerman but it's unprovable and I don't see it would have much legal weight. Rather it's two bad laws: (1) the right to carry a loaded gun in public, and (2) stand-your-ground that are the essential causes of Martin's death.

[JohnMichael]

I wish it was only skittles....But its to bad he really robbed the kid of his life...so sad.

Please do not think that my commenting on his weight in any way lessons the tragedy of what happened. I was angered and still angry that someone who was supposed to keep the area safe was one of the bigger dangers. I am also upset that the police did not haul George in for interrogation. I will be even angrier if George is not found guilty.

[frenchmon]

JM...no worries.

Feanor...have you been watching on TV?

No one, I mean no one thinks the key witness was lying after yeasterday. The defense is trying hard to impeach the testimony of these witnesses but there is just too much in favor of Trevon Martin...especially when Zimmerman has lied about being on the bottom, and what was really strong against Zimmerman was when the girl on the phone at the time he was murdered said she heard Martin say "get off" "get off". He also told the girl "some creepy white guy is following me..im going to try and lose him" Then after a while he said. "There he is again". The girl then said to Martin "Run!" Martin replied " I aint running no more...I'm all most at my dads house he can help me" After that the next thing she heard was when Martin said "get off!" get off!" she then heard a scuffle and the then the phone cut off. When Martin said "get off" establishes the fact of Zimmerman being the agressor.

[JohnMichael]

And then there's "Stand Your Ground Law" that permits deadly force without first attempting to evade a violent confrontation.

Incidentally racism might have been a factor with Zimmerman but it's unprovable and I don't see it would have much legal weight.


I agree that concealed carry along with Stand Your Ground is a bad idea. I also think George Zimmerman has a history of prejudice based on his calls to dispatcher's. His comment that they always get away says vigilante to me. A combination of hate, a gun and a law that empowers people to become afraid to justify behaviors is a lethal combination. If he was afraid he could have stayed in his car and driven away. To me his actions showed he was acting out of prejudice.

[Hyfi]

You know what is more interesting? all the photos of GZ directly after the incident showed no signs of a broken nose or cuts to the back of his head, which would surely have left blood on his clothing as head wound bleed good. Then the next day he is wearing large band aids on his head.

If the back of his head had been smashed into the pavement as claimed, there would have been cuts and blood at the time of the incident. Seems to me as soon as he contacted his lawyer, they concocted the story and scuffed up his head a bit to try and back it up.

[JohnMichael]

I thought that was fake when I first saw the coverage. What bothered me from the beginning is why it took so long for George to be questioned let alone be charged.

[Feanor]

I agree that concealed carry along with Stand Your Ground is a bad idea. I also think George Zimmerman has a history of prejudice based on his calls to dispatcher's. His comment that they always get away says vigilante to me. A combination of hate, a gun and a law that empowers people to become afraid to justify behaviors is a lethal combination. If he was afraid he could have stayed in his car and driven away. To me his actions showed he was acting out of prejudice.
It's also a fact that the race card has been played by Martin's family and the media. Very likely racism was a factor with Zimmerman, but my point is that bad gun & stand-your-ground laws would have made the scenario almost as likely if Zimmerman and Martin had both been black, both white, or both whatever.

[Hyfi]

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.

[Feanor]

Bottom line is that the dispatcher told him to stay in his car and leave the kid alone. End of story. Gun laws mean nothing here. Failure to follow simple instructions was the main problem.

Stand your ground does not mean carry when you're not supposed to be, confronting someone when you're told not to, and then shooting that person sounds way far from standing your own ground. I am thinking it is supposed to mean that if someone breaks into your home, you can shoot first and ask questions later, not attack and shoot and then claim otherwise.
It remains to be seen whether Stand-you-ground will be invoked in this case. Of course Zimmerman ought to have followed police instructions. I suggest because he was carrying a gun he was emboldened to confront Martin instead of following instructions.

This is the significance of too many people with guns: that it provokes rash behavior leading to death 'way too often.

[markw]

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy. Look at those Duke University LaCrosse players a few years ago.

And, while we're at it, hoccum there's no mention of this little incident (http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/22/us/georgia-baby-killed) by the mass media? It sure looks like a much more heinous crime to me. Perhaps the baby that was shot in the face was the wrong color? More interestingly, it seems that according to this later article (http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/29/us/georgia-brunswick-baby-shooting) that helping the perps conceal their crime is a real family affair.

[Hyfi]

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

GZs job as a Neighborhood Watch participant ended with his call to the police. Period!

The reference to all his other calls and statements like "They always get away" shows this to be more racially motivated than not. I would bet if it was a chubby white boy with his pants falling down, his actions would have been different. But it was a black kid in a hoody, which in his views meant criminal.

[Feanor]

Sorry, it's not "too many people with guns" it is more like 'too many idiots with guns' giving a bad name to the majority of gun owners that are not idiots. I have 6 handguns and a Permit to Carry. I have carried maybe 10 times in 15 years. I do however keep them loaded and hidden around the house in various hidden places and I will stand my ground if needed. But, I don't go looking for trouble as GZ did feeling like a tough guy with a gun.

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate).)

[dean_martin]

The media has Zimmerman tried, convicted and executed already. They love to take these stories and race-bait the self-loathing liberal masses into a frenzy.
Uhhh, hold on there pardner. FOX just said that the only evidence of racism is Martin's use of the word "cracker". I'm not sure if they're referring to a saltine, Ritz, oyster or one of those fancy party crackers.

[JohnMichael]

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.

[markw]

As a self liking liberal I am able to see when race or any reason to hate is part of the situation. GZ could not help himself and had to get out of his car and elevate the situation. He had to have the upper hand.

I have been the victim of extreme hate so I can recognize it. I believe that is what drove George Zimmerman.Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.

But, sometimes when things don't look "right", some investigation is called for. It was mentioned that there have been "happeniongs" in that neighborhood in the past and he was just checking the situation out. Perhaps Mr. Zimmernman's curiosity could have prevented this recent occurance (http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2013/06/millburn_home_invasion_video_nanny_cam.html) in an upper-class, liberal, lily-white, neighborhood. Sumptin' tells me that applications for gun permits are gonna soar in that neighborhood.

No offense, but you live in a place where problems are relatively few. If you want an education of what goes on around here on a daily basis, periodicaly check out NJ.COM (http://www.nj.com/) to see what goes on around here on a daily basis. We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.

[dean_martin]

Sorry, John, you weren't there, and neither was I. We're both at the mercy of what MSM chooses to feed us, and that was the crux of my post.



Your "crux" is wrong. We can watch the trial live and re-plays at night. Stop rolling out that tired old BS about the msm. I'll give you this much, however, PRE-TRIAL publicity can be less than thorough, not necessarily because the media is filtering in favor of one side or the other but because the actual parties are releasing their most favorable spin.

[frenchmon]

This is getting interesting. Those pictures of Zimmerman with his nose all busted up and bloody was right after the gun shoot. At least that's what the girl who called that popular 911 shot with the scream in the back ground said. But Martin did not have a scratch on his hands or blood any where on his body...all but a little on his shirt. Something aint right. If you punch someones nose bloody and break it and its bleeding all over, you have to have a least a little trace of blood on you but Martin had none. George also said in an earlier recording that he did not know who scream that was, but now its suppose to be his screams for help. I assume that will come out after all the witnesses have testified.

Also...the 19 year old girl was not as intelligent as she should have been. She was confusing at times and the defense took advantage of her in a bad way, but she was very believable in her testimony. She could not read cursive writing and will finish high school a year later...but that's ok...she is going to the 12th grade. She is of Dominican and Hattie heritage, and speaks very softly...that may be why her English is a little broken making it hard to understand. Even tho the defense twisted her into a pretzel, she is very credible...at least in my opinion.

After hearing the other 4, 911 calls by GZ, I am convinced he was profiling black guys. He put all black guys who came in his hood in one group and as no good. If I walked in that hood to go visit JM who also lived there, and GZ saw me, he would assume I was there to rob the place, he would then call 911 and then follow me.....and to be clear....GZ had 50 such calls.

[Hyfi]

So I guess we'll have to disagree to some extent. I own three handguns myself because I used to target shoot at a range. I'm confident I could use such weapons responsibly at all times but I'm not so sure about other people; you can't just dismiss Zimmerman as an aberration of human behaviour.

Incidentally my guns are virtually useless for self-defence since the Canadian requirements for storage, especially of handguns, renders them practically inaccessible in an an emergency such as home invasion. And it's noteworthy that self-defence against hypothetical intruders is NOT a valid justification for a gun permit. Up here we not only have a background check but a 5 year renewable permit to own any type of gun. There are additional requirements in order to purchase any type of gun and yet more restrictions to own or purchase handguns. Having fewer guns and stricter handling restrictions in Canada means we have fewer than 1/4 the total gun deaths and 1/7 the gun homicides per capital that you have in the USA -- it certainly isn't because Canadians are any less idiots than Americans. (See Wiki reference HERE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_firearm-related_death_rate).)

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.



Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!

[markw]

Your "crux" is wrong. We can watch the trial live and re-plays at night. Stop rolling out that tired old BS about the msm. I'll give you this much, however, PRE-TRIAL publicity can be less than thorough, not necessarily because the media is filtering in favor of one side or the other but because the actual parties are releasing their most favorable spin.We can watch the entire trial but we both know most of the country won't. They'll fight for the scraps the MSM throws out on the nightly news and internet websites. Also, we both know that peoples minds were made up before the trial even started, and now they are lining up for the lynching.

I'd really like to see the baby shooter I linked to earlier held up to MSM public scrutiny like this fiasco was, but you know that ain't gonna happen. ...and you know why.

[Feanor]

My permit also needs to be renewed every 5 years. Every gun I purchased had a waiting and background check period of a week. And I did not get the permit under a hypothetical home invasion paranoia, I got it because it is my right and my county approves law abiding citizens to do so. You don't need the permit to have them in your house, in any fashion you wish, the permit is to carry a concealed weapon. I would rather it be in the open and we have groups in my county debating just that now.

Simple Math can show you why you have a lower percentage of issues. And I am betting we have a few more illegals here too than you.
Canada
Population: 34,568,211 (July 2013 est.)
USA
Population: 316,668,567 (July 2013 est.)

And like Mark says, come vacation in Philly or Newark for a week and see if you feel the same way.

By the way, Happy Birthday Mark!
Well Happy Birthday to Mark.

Concealed carry permits are practically impossible to get in Canada; if they were I'd apply for one. However the last thing I'd want, personally, is to be actually seen carrying a gun.

The highest crime rates in Canada are among aboriginals, (native Indians). You're right that we don't have the same volume of illegal immigrants here. On the other hand Canada admits about 3x the number of (legal) immigrants per capita compared to the USA. Overall crime rates are trending slightly downward here as they are in the USA.

I'm not sure why total population size would have much to do with fewer gun deaths. According to the same reference I sited, Honduras has the highest rate of gun homicides, 64.8/100k (!!) and its population is only 8.2M. Looking at city sizes, the population of the greater Toronto area is 5.5M and the homicide rate is 3.3/100k, while the greater Detroit area has a similar pop of 5.2M but a homicide rate of 46/100k.

Despite that I'm a gun owner myself, I'm inclined to believe that, overall statistically, guns don't protect us, they get us killed.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

We can watch the entire trial but we both know most of the country won't. They'll fight for the scraps the MSM throws out on the nightly news and internet websites. Also, we both know that peoples minds were made up before the trial even started, and now they are lining up for the lynching.

I'd really like to see the baby shooter I linked to earlier held up to MSM public scrutiny like this fiasco was, but you know that ain't gonna happen. ...and you know why.

Mark, you are just plain tiring, and sound like a broken needle with all of this liberal crap. This is about a life, not about politics. A young black male was shot dead for no reason at all, and you still think this is about liberal/conservative. We are not talking about any other case here than the Martin/Zimmerman case. So give us a break with the mud, so the water can remain clear.

[bobsticks]

Guilty! George did everything wrong. If he had stayed in his car like the dispatcher suggested. Knock, knock

Simply, this ^^^

[markw]

Mark, you are just plain tiring, and sound like a broken needle with all of this liberal crap. This is about a life, not about politics. A young black male was shot dead for no reason at all, and you still think this is about liberal/conservative. We are not talking about any other case here than the Martin/Zimmerman case. So give us a break with the mud, so the water can remain clear.Frankly, terry, I couldn't care less about what you think.

As I said earlier, your minds are alread made up. Reading this thread confirms that. You're all just sitting here, rubbing tour hands, looking for reasons to justify your already formed beliefs, and having a schadenfreude orgasm waiting for the verdict.

Now, since the trial isn't over, were did these beliefs come from?

Apparantly that a 13 month old WHITE baby was shot in the face in his stroller right in front of his mother by a BLACK punk doesn't seem to bother you at all, and if that in itself isn't racist, I don't know what is. And the same goes for MSM for dropping this one and crucifying Zimmerman, a latino.

Remember, I'm not defending anoone here. I'm just pointing out that the media has played y'all (plural for yall), and y'all too brainwashed to admit it.

So, deal with it, terry.

[JohnMichael]

Mark we are talking about the Zimmerman trial. Let us not bring every tragic event into this thread. You are welcome to participate but be respectful.

By the way what is MSM?

[dean_martin]

Frankly, terry, I couldn't care less about what you think.

As I said earlier, your minds are alread made up. Reading this thread confirms that. You're all just sitting here, rubbing tour hands, looking for reasons to justify your already formed beliefs, and having a schadenfreude orgasm waiting for the verdict.

Now, since the trial isn't over, were did these beliefs come from?

Apparantly that a 13 month old WHITE baby was shot in the face in his stroller right in front of his mother by a BLACK punk doesn't seem to bother you at all, and if that in itself isn't racist, I don't know what is. And the same goes for MSM for dropping this one and crucifying Zimmerman, a latino.

Remember, I'm not defending anoone here. I'm just pointing out that the media has played y'all (plural for yall), and y'all too brainwashed to admit it.

So, deal with it, terry.
Mark, it's the two sides, the state and the victim's family, that have gone to the media in this one. The state almost always gets a jump on the defense. But, I remember the Zimmerman team's "push back" which included injuries to Zimmerman's head, the brother's media tour and Martin's troubles in school. Both sides were covered by the so-called msm leading up to the trial.

There are so many news outlets today. I think what we thought of as the mainstream media in the past has become quite diluted.

[markw]

Mark we are talking about the Zimmerman trial. Let us not bring every tragic event into this thread. You are welcome to participate but be respectful. Respect is a two way street. I'm merely pointing out how easily people are whipped into a blood-thirsty mob by the media, and apparantly that riles one or more here. I do wonder how a supposedly educated population could be so easily maniplated.


By the way what is MSM? I am aware of MSN, CNN, FAUX but not MSM. Sounds like something I would like.I do hope that's a joke. If not, well, I think I just got some insight into one of my questions.

[Hyfi]

Respect is a two way street. I'm merely pointing out how easily people are whipped into a blood-thirsty mob by the media, and apparantly that riles one or more here. I do wonder how a supposedly educated population could be so easily maniplated.

I do hope that's a joke. If not, well, I think I just got some insight into one of my questions.

So Mark, are you saying that you feel that a guy with a gun who got out of his car and followed the kid when told not to, and then shot him did so in self defense? Are you saying the kid deserved to get killed and instigated the whole thing?

That is what it sounds like, media or no media.

[JohnMichael]

Mark by respect I meant how you adress other members.

[Hyfi]

Mark by respect I meant how you adress other members.

Here we go again....you may want to check the post he responded to for Respect, yeah, the one you "Liked"

[JohnMichael]

Here we go again....you may want to check the post he responded to for Respect, yeah, the one you "Liked"


I was responding to Mark calling Sir T by terry. Sir T called Mark, Mark and not marky. I liked the point Sir T was making and yes it could have been worded differently. If we are talking about the Zimmerman trial bringing anything else into it muddies the waters.

[markw]

So Mark, are you saying that you feel that a guy with a gun who got out of his car and followed the kid when told not to, and then shot him did so in self defense? Are you saying the kid deserved to get killed and instigated the whole thing?

That is what it sounds like, media or no media.No, I think Zimmernman was an idiot and deserves to pay for it. Shooting an apparantly unarmed person does warrant some questions. I would like to know exactly what happened but I don't think it's as black and white (no pun intended) as everbody thinks.

My point in this tread was it amazes me how much media play this one crime gets when, in when big picture, there were many more crimes worthy of a public lynching. That baby shot in the face, for instance, but like I said earlier, a black shooting whites (even a 13 month old baby, apparantly) isn't news, but a latino shooting a black guarantees lotsa viewers. Playing two race cards at once here.

Gotta go with the entertainment factor here, and everyone loves a good lynching.

[markw]

I was responding to Mark calling Sir T by terry. Sir T called Mark, Mark and not marky. I liked the point Sir T was making and yes it could have been worded differently. If we are talking about the Zimmerman trial bringing anything else into it muddies the waters.Sorry,but when he "talks" to me in that manner, I see no reason to play up to his affectations by wasting time typing out his long, pretentious, name just to feed his already over-inflated ego.

[Hyfi]

I was responding to Mark calling Sir T by terry. Sir T called Mark, Mark and not marky. I liked the point Sir T was making and yes it could have been worded differently. If we are talking about the Zimmerman trial bringing anything else into it muddies the waters.

OK, now you are getting a bit picky. You reprimanded me for calling you JM and not your full name, but I see others do that often without you saying a word. Keep it consistent.

Mark was merely pointing out how things get skewed depending on what race did what to who, and he was dead on.

People who create ridiculously long moniker names are sure to have them truncated from time to time, and if anyone gets bent about it they need to just grow up.

[JohnMichael]

If I ever reacted to being called JM I was either being sarcastic or had enough of your whining. I never write out Sir T's full name and do you know how he got his name? If he had called him Sir T, Terrence I would have not responded but to me calling him terry is meant to demean.


OK, now you are getting a bit picky. You reprimanded me for calling you JM and not your full name, but I see others do that often without you saying a word. Keep it consistent.

Mark was merely pointing out how things get skewed depending on what race did what to who, and he was dead on.

People who create ridiculously long moniker names are sure to have them truncated from time to time, and if anyone gets bent about it they need to just grow up.

[Hyfi]

If I ever reacted to being called JM I was either being sarcastic or had enough of your whining. I never write out Sir T's full name and do you know how he got his name? If he had called him Sir T, Terrence I would have not responded but to me calling him terry is meant to demean.

Don't know how, don't really care. Your grasping here. How is calling someone by a truncation of their name demeaning?

OK I won't muddy this thread any more than it is, JM.

[markw]

I have two friends named "Terrance". Neither one is so pompus as to demand they be called that. Eveyone calls them "Terry". No problemo, and ain't no way in hell I'm calling him "sir".

Now that my point has been made to those capable of undertanding it, you may now rejoin your regularly scheduled lynching, already in progress.

[dean_martin]

I have two friends named "Terrance". Neither one is so pompus as to demand they be called that. Eveyone calls them "Terry". No problemo, and ain't no way in hell I'm calling him "sir".

Now that my point has been made to those capable of undertanding it, you may now rejoin your regularly scheduled lynching, already in progress.

Mark, I read your linked article on the baby-shooting case and read some follow-up articles. It seems that the authorities are being a little tight-lipped. That's the main reason it's not getting much play in the media. The media doesn't have a lot to chew on. Because of the outrageous nature of the shooting, as long as the authorities have correctly identified the perpetrators, it should be an "open and shut" case. No debate necessary.

The Zimmerman case, OTOH, has lots of juicy tidbits, such as self-defense and possible racial profiling and vigilantism.

[JohnMichael]

I have two friends named "Terrance". Neither one is so pompus as to demand they be called that. Eveyone calls them "Terry". No problemo, and ain't no way in hell I'm calling him "sir".

Now that my point has been made to those capable of undertanding it, you may now rejoin your regularly scheduled lynching, already in progress.



I think comprehension on both sides are lacking. You may call your friend Terry but Sir T, terry. You as well as others like to instigate. Back to the Zimmerman trial.

[Hyfi]

So one witness says the guy on top was Martin, another says the guy on top was the one that got up.

If I was on the jury, all I would need is a few questions from the prosecutor to GZ.

Prosecutor- Did you call 911?
GZ- Yes

Prosecutor- Did they tell you to stay in your car or not follow the person?
GZ- Yes

Case closed.

[JohnMichael]

I agree. Zimmerman was neighborhood WATCH not follow, confront and shoot. What drove him to need to confront Martin. What drove him to think of Martin as up to something that he needed to follow and confront. Prejudging Martin is what must have motivated his actions.



So one witness says the guy on top was Martin, another says the guy on top was the one that got up.

If I was on the jury, all I would need is a few questions from the prosecutor to GZ.

Prosecutor- Did you call 911?
GZ- Yes

Prosecutor- Did they tell you to stay in your car or not follow the person?
GZ- Yes

Case closed.

[Hyfi]

Prejudging Martin is what must have motivated his actions.
And his gun fulfilled them because this time "They didn't get away"

[markw]

Mark, I read your linked article on the baby-shooting case and read some follow-up articles. It seems that the authorities are being a little tight-lipped. That's the main reason it's not getting much play in the media. The media doesn't have a lot to chew on. Because of the outrageous nature of the shooting, as long as the authorities have correctly identified the perpetrators, it should be an "open and shut" case. No debate necessary.

The Zimmerman case, OTOH, has lots of juicy tidbits, such as self-defense and possible racial profiling and vigilantism.Thank you. This actually make sense and makes me believe that you might be the only one here who was capable of listening rationaly to what I was saying as opposed to sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la la". For them, yeah, it's just a public lynching.

[dean_martin]

[QUOTE=markw;394873]Thank you. This actually make sense and makes me believe that you might be the only one hear who was capable of listening rationaly to what I was saying as opposed to sticking their fingers in their ears and going "la la la la". For them, yeah, it's just a public lynching.[/QUOTE/]
All I meant was there's room for opinion in the Zimmerman case. I want to see if there's any Florida state law that allows you to follow a guy, confront him, start some ****, then claim self defense after you shoot him because he was beatin' your ass for being an *******. If so, you can bet my state will pass a similar law. Then, I'll be walkin' around lookin' over my shoulder for *******s.

[frenchmon]

Well they cant use the Stand your ground law....Zimmerman said he did not what to use that. Having said that, all the defense has to do is create doubt, and so far they are really doing that. That guy John Good really hurt the state by saying he saw George on the bottom and George was calling for help. I am a good judge of character and I studied his every movement and face expressions...the guy has been telling his lies for about a year now he has it all down pat. My gut feeling is George will walk. Oh I work in IT.....I sit at work and wait for a problem to come to me....so I get a chance to watch the trial online everyday. I then get home at 1:30pm and continue to watch....I can see what the defense is doing. Its obvious George initiated all of this....it was him that attacked Treyvon and Treyvon kicked his punk ass, so George shot him. What a punk ass.

Pardon my French.

[Feanor]

Well they cant use the Stand your ground law....Zimmerman said he did not what to use that. Having said that, all the defense has to do is create doubt, and so far they are really doing that. That guy John Good really hurt the state by saying he saw George on the bottom and George was calling for help. I am a good judge of character and I studied his every movement and face expressions...the guy has been telling his lies for about a year now he has it all down pat. My gut feeling is George will walk. Oh I work in IT.....I sit at work and wait for a problem to come to me....so I get a chance to watch the trial online everyday. I then get home at 1:30pm and continue to watch....I can see what the defense is doing. Its obvious George initiated all of this....it was him that attacked Treyvon and Treyvon kicked his punk ass, so George shot him. What a punk ass.

Pardon my French.
I'm betting Zimmerman will walk. All it takes is reasonable doubt. That he "probably" did it, that he should have stayed in the car, that he was racially motivated, that he was or was not as badly hurt as he makes out, is all irrelevant unless it can be proven that he shot Martin while Martin was passive or pacified, and it doesn't look like that will be proven.

[markw]

All I meant was there's room for opinion in the Zimmerman case. I want to see if there's any Florida state law that allows you to follow a guy, confront him, start some ****, then claim self defense after you shoot him because he was beatin' your ass for being an *******. If so, you can bet my state will pass a similar law. Then, I'll be walkin' around lookin' over my shoulder for *******s.Dunno about that sequence, but reasonable doubt is a strong thing indeed. As for following and confronting, I don't think that's the same as actually initiating a physical altercation. Being a loudmouth ashhole is one thing (our roads are rife with those) but unless it gets physical, it's just noise. So,t he question is who started it, which we'll never know and/or, who was on the bottom?

But, as I've always said, never confuse the law with justice.

FWIW, there's already rumors of large scale rioting if Zimmernam gets off. Ain't that great?

[dean_martin]

[QUOTE=markw;394880]Dunno about that sequence

It would be clearer if I said a$$hole instead of *******.

[markw]

[QUOTE=markw;394880]Dunno about that sequence

It would be clearer if I said a$$hole instead of *******.Actually, I was referring to the sequence of events leading to the shooting, not the asterisks.

[dean_martin]

[QUOTE=dean_martin;394881]Actually, I was referring to the sequence of events leading to the shooting, not the asterisks.

I know.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

I have two friends named "Terrance". Neither one is so pompus as to demand they be called that. Eveyone calls them "Terry". No problemo, and ain't no way in hell I'm calling him "sir".

Well, I am not those friends, and my name is not Terry. Got that?

I think it is rather eggheaded to think a person is pompous for wanting to be called Terrence(or Terrance) if that is their name. Every Terrance I know wants to be called Terrance, not Terry. When a Terrence says call me Terry, that is when you do it. You don't ASSume you can shorten anyone's name.


Now that my point has been made to those capable of undertanding it, you may now rejoin your regularly scheduled lynching, already in progress.

And you can continue to ASSume we are lynching somebody.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Frankly, terry, I couldn't care less about what you think.

The feeling is mutual.


As I said earlier, your minds are alread made up. Reading this thread confirms that. You're all just sitting here, rubbing tour hands, looking for reasons to justify your already formed beliefs, and having a schadenfreude orgasm waiting for the verdict.

And you are ASSuming far too much here. You don't know where my mind is on this issue, I have mentioned nothing. Do you see how stupid this makes you look?


Now, since the trial isn't over, were did these beliefs come from?

What beliefs? I have not stated my beliefs.


Apparantly that a 13 month old WHITE baby was shot in the face in his stroller right in front of his mother by a BLACK punk doesn't seem to bother you at all, and if that in itself isn't racist, I don't know what is. And the same goes for MSM for dropping this one and crucifying Zimmerman, a latino.

How do you stupidly gather all of this when I have not stated my opinion, or really made any comments on the case at all? Do you see how stupid you look for this comment?

By the way brightness, I AM LATINO!


Remember, I'm not defending anoone here. I'm just pointing out that the media has played y'all (plural for yall), and y'all too brainwashed to admit it.

How do you know the media played me when I have not stated an opinion on this case. Do you see how stupid you look on this comment?


So, deal with it, terry.

I don't have to deal with anything stupid.

Terry shortened and with a little t, if that is not demeaning, I don't know what is. Please don't ASSume we are as stupid as you look with all of these assumptions you have thrown out there.

[markw]

Well, I am not those friends, and my name is not Terry. Got that?

I think it is rather eggheaded to think a person is pompous for wanting to be called Terrence(or Terrance) if that is their name. Every Terrance I know wants to be called Terrance, not Terry. When a Terrence says call me Terry, that is when you do it. You don't ASSume you can shorten anyone's name.



And you can continue to ASSume we are lynching somebody.Look, here's the scoop..

When you address me in your usual condescendong tone, I'll call you whatever I want. If you want respect, you gotta show some youeself.

Sofar, all I see is some loudmouth, bloviating, blowhard who thinks the can talk down to me trying to intimidate me.

So, you have three choices: 1) ignore me and I'll ignore you or 2) address me in a civil manner and I'll reciprocate, or 3) Continue dumping on me and deal with my responses.

So far, you've chosen option three.

Got that Now, move on and get a life.

Oh, you might want to add that ASS to your string of letters you're so proud of.

Oh, I know you're latino. Who here doesn't, and who cares? FWIW, My wife is brasilian. Why should that make a difference in anything?

[JohnMichael]

You two could ignore each other.

I sometimes think what people do not like about someone else they fail to see in themselves.



Look, here's the scoop..

When you address me in your usual condescendong tone, I'll call you whatever I want. If you want respect, you gotta show some youeself.

Sofar, all I see is some loudmouth, bloviating, blowhard who thinks the can talk down to me trying to intimidate me.

So, you have three choices: 1) ignore me and I'll ignore you or 2) address me in a civil manner and I'll reciprocate, or 3) Continue dumping on me and deal with my responses.

So far, you've chosen option three.

Got that Now, move on and get a life.

Oh, you might want to add that ASS to your string of letters you're so proud of.

Oh, I know you're latino. Who here doesn't, and who cares? FWIW, My wife is brasilian. Why should that make a difference in anything?

[frenchmon]

I'm betting Zimmerman will walk. All it takes is reasonable doubt. That he "probably" did it, that he should have stayed in the car, that he was racially motivated, that he was or was not as badly hurt as he makes out, is all irrelevant unless it can be proven that he shot Martin while Martin was passive or pacified, and it doesn't look like that will be proven.

The only thing from John Goods testimony that was hurtful to the defense and their case was John Good said he saw, as Zimmerman lay on the ground, his hands where free and he probably could have got up or wiggled out. The state may take advantage of that later in the trial. That establishes the fact that Zimmerman did not have to shoot the guy. It establishes the fact he may not have been helpless as he claims and it really was murder. Zimmer said Treyvon was going for the gun and that he touched the gun....but there in none of Treyvins DNA on the gun, only Zimmermans....that's very important. None of Zimmermans DNA was found on treyvon...no blood or anything, so how does that happened if Treyvon kicked his ass as shown in the pictures? This is a total mystery. But there is lots of trial to go, so we will see what happens.

[Sir Terrence the Terrible]

Look, here's the scoop..

When you address me in your usual condescendong tone, I'll call you whatever I want. If you want respect, you gotta show some youeself.

Oh piss off Mark. You don't show any respect to anyone, and based on that you don't deserve any.


Sofar, all I see is some loudmouth, bloviating, blowhard who thinks the can talk down to me trying to intimidate me.

Nobody cares about you. You are nothing more than a piece of crap on a elephants azz. Who cares about that?


So, you have three choices: 1) ignore me and I'll ignore you or 2) address me in a civil manner and I'll reciprocate, or 3) Continue dumping on me and deal with my responses.

No Mark, these are your three choice. I have my own choices, and no azzhole is going to make mine for me.


So far, you've chosen option three.

Go ahead and throw you responses, they don't bother me one bit.


Got that Now, move on and get a life.

Say this four thousand times in front of the mirrior.


Oh, you might want to add that ASS to your string of letters you're so proud of.

When I refer to you, the word is so appropriate.


Oh, I know you're latino. Who here doesn't, and who cares? FWIW, My wife is brasilian. Why should that make a difference in anything?

You cannot pull your usual black/white slant with me, and I am letting you know that.

I see you didn't even address the fact that you judged my opinion before I even made it. No respect in that is there? You stupidly flew off the handle before I could even post one.

[markw]

That short line of text between my name and avatar pretty much what I think of you.

Buh-buy ...cwybaby

[JohnMichael]

I am sorry this thread stopped due to bad behaviors. I am wondering as the trial is coming to an end before verdict what does everyone think today? I want to read opinions regarding the trial and not each other.

[Hyfi]

I think he is gonna walk. I hope otherwise but that is my gut feeling. I do hope he loses a civil suit or worse. I do wonder why this case continues to be the main news article while so many worse things and murders go on daily. I have my conspiracy theories on that but will reserve for now.

Aside from GZ being a complete Ahole, which he should be tried and convicted, the real injustice may be that Martin called a Latino a Cracker.

[JohnMichael]

I think this case is interesting in that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that George shot Trayvon. The real interest is why he made so many bad choices that led to the death of Trayvon. Self defense or murder and I think it was murder.

[Hyfi]

It would have been self defense if GZ sat in his car and TM attacked him there. The fact that he followed and kept stalking makes it a bit otherwise. I would have stopped and decked his ass too if he was harassing me in my own neighborhood.

[Feanor]

It would have been self defense if GZ sat in his car and TM attacked him there. The fact that he followed and kept stalking makes it a bit otherwise. I would have stopped and decked his ass too if he was harassing me in my own neighborhood.
I think Zimmerman will walk because it hasn't been proven that he didn't act in self-defence; (notice the double negative here).

Racism doesn't matter; hoodyphobia doesn't matter; police wannabe doesn't matter. It isn't against the law to disregard a 911 operator's suggestion, (maybe it should be). Nor is it against the law to confront a potential malfeasant, (maybe it should be). What is against the law is to pin a person to the ground and beat his/her head against the concrete. Are we sure this happened? No. OTOH, are we sure it didn't happen? No, not from the evidence I've heard.

There is reasonable doubt that Zimmerman didn't act in self-defence, therefore he must be acquitted - QED.

Zimmerman was emboldened to approach Martin against the 911 guy's advice because he was (a) lawfully armed with handgun, (b) almost certainly aware of Florida Stand-you-ground laws.

[JohnMichael]

Did Trayvon think he was in danger and needed to stand his ground? Can he not safely walk to the store for skittles? George was safe in his car until he got out to follow Trayvon. Trayvon was being followed by someone he did not know. First he was followed by vehicle and then on foot. I am sure Trayvon was fearful and ready to protect himself.

[markw]

It would have been self defense if GZ sat in his car and TM attacked him there. The fact that he followed and kept stalking makes it a bit otherwise. I would have stopped and decked his ass too if he was harassing me in my own neighborhood.Granted, Z was a ashhole but, if he didn't throw the first punch, well...

As to Martin, throwing a punch to get Z off is ash and walk away would be one thing but to sucker punch him, knock him down, get on top of the out-of shape Zimmerman, straddle him, and power-pummel him without any sign of letting up is a different matter entirely. Even by the farthest strech of the imagination does that far exceed any "stand your ground" interpertation.

That now sort of puts Zimmerman in the victim seat and he was defending himself.

It was funny to see the prosecurion change their story from where, in the beginning, Zimmernam was on top but towards the end, they were showing, with the dummy, Martin on the top. Cerdibility issues? Nah, not in the least.

Basically, this was two ashholes, and one is dead. Life goes on.

[dean_martin]

I think Zimmerman will walk because it hasn't been proven that he didn't act in self-defence; (notice the double negative here).

Racism doesn't matter; hoodyphobia doesn't matter; police wannabe doesn't matter. It isn't against the law to disregard a 911 operator's suggestion, (maybe it should be). Nor is it against the law to confront a potential malfeasant, (maybe it should be). What is against the law is to pin a person to the ground and beat his/her head against the concrete. Are we sure this happened? No. OTOH, are we sure it didn't happen? No, not from the evidence I've heard.

There is reasonable doubt that Zimmerman didn't act in self-defence, therefore he must be acquitted - QED.

Zimmerman was emboldened to approach Martin against the 911 guy's advice because he was (a) lawfully armed with handgun, (b) almost certainly aware of Florida Stand-you-ground laws.

Those things DO matter in trying to determine GZ's intent or what was in his mind when he acted. That's why the murder charge is going to the jury. There's just enough evidence of ill will, spite and/or hatred (an element of the crime) to let the jury decide.

As far as self-defense goes, that's a question for the jury too because the evidence isn't clear. There is some subtle "burden shifting" on an affirmative defense. The minority view is that the defendant carries the burden of proof on self-defense by a preponderance (more likely than not) of the evidence. The majority view is that evidence of self-defense must be examined along with all the evidence. IOW, the fact-finder is not supposed to examine the evidence of self-defense, if any, in a vacuum. Lack of self-defense is not an element of the crime of murder. Therefore, the state does not have to "disprove" it, but if there is evidence of self-defense, then the evidence taken as a whole must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a tricky and sometimes superficial legal analysis to reconcile the fact that lack of a legal "defense" to a crime is rarely an element of the crime (each element OF THE CRIME must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt) with the state's burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. What if the jury finds it difficult to believe that GZ pulled his gun while his shoulders/arm pits were pinned by Martin? A wild tale inconsistent with common sense is not reasonable doubt.

The lesser-included charge of Manslaughter: On this charge, I can see the jury not giving much weight to the "self-defense" defense even if they think the defense precludes a guilty verdict on murder.

[Feanor]

that ist's
Those things DO matter in trying to determine GZ's intent or what was in his mind when he acted. That's why the murder charge is going to the jury. There's just enough evidence of ill will, spite and/or hatred (an element of the crime) to let the jury decide.

As far as self-defense goes, that's a question for the jury too because the evidence isn't clear. There is some subtle "burden shifting" on an affirmative defense. The minority view is that the defendant carries the burden of proof on self-defense by a preponderance (more likely than not) of the evidence. The majority view is that evidence of self-defense must be examined along with all the evidence. IOW, the fact-finder is not supposed to examine the evidence of self-defense, if any, in a vacuum. Lack of self-defense is not an element of the crime of murder. Therefore, the state does not have to "disprove" it, but if there is evidence of self-defense, then the evidence taken as a whole must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. It's a tricky and sometimes superficial legal analysis to reconcile the fact that lack of a legal "defense" to a crime is rarely an element of the crime (each element OF THE CRIME must be proved beyond a reasonable doubt) with the state's burden to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. What if the jury finds it difficult to believe that GZ pulled his gun while his shoulders/arm pits were pinned by Martin? A wild tale inconsistent with common sense is not reasonable doubt.

The lesser-included charge of Manslaughter: On this charge, I can see the jury not giving much weight to the "self-defense" defense even if they think the defense precludes a guilty verdict on murder.
Since you are a lawyer I defer to your insight about "subtle burden shifting", even as I note that you say it's the minority view that the defendant carries the burden of proof.

However in Canada the burden of self-defence does generally shift to the defendant. I'm told the Stand-your-ground is derive from the so-called "castle doctrine", but here in Canada the castle doctrine isn't recognized, that is, it is always a Canadian's responsibility to retreat from, or evade, a potential attack even in his own home, ("castle"). Certainly in Canada if a neighbour watch volunteer shot anybody, however likely that the latter was an actual malfeasant, he would be charged with murder ipso facto. No volunteer would be issued a carry permit; if he was carrying a gun unlawfully, there would be strong presumption that he came to the situation with the intended to used it.

I'm pretty sure that if you shoot an intruder in your house in Canada, you will be charged with manslaughter (at least) and the burden will be yours to proof it was self-defence. Also it virtually certain that you will be charged with a firearms offence since gun storage requirements here make it virtually impossible to quickly access a gun to use for self-defence.

[Hyfi]

There would have been no need for either to resort to self defense if GZ followed the simple instructions he was given. He created the situation. Period! How can you stalk and follow someone against direct instructions from the police, and then when the stalkee ends up turning the tables he then cries self defense and scared for his life. He should have just taken the beating he deserved and then filed assault charges.

[markw]

There would have been no need for either to resort to self defense if GZ followed the simple instructions he was given. He created the situation. Period! How can you stalk and follow someone against direct instructions from the police, and then when the stalkee ends up turning the tables he then cries self defense and scared for his life. He should have just taken the beating he deserved and then filed assault charges.I don't think he's under any legal obligtion to follow the orders of a 911 operator. As for turning the table, I don't think the kid had any legal right to start a physical altercation, much less pin and pummel anyone. If such was the case, it's not Z's fault that he had to resort to the gun, which he ws legally allowed to carry, to protect himself.

Betcha of the kid knew he had a gun he wouldn't have started in throwing punches. That's the risk people take when CCW permits are out there. They may start in with the wrong guy, like this kid did.

[JohnMichael]

I don't think he's under any legal obligtion to follow the orders of a 911 operator. As for turning the table, I don't think the kid had any legal right to start a physical altercation, much less pin and pummel anyone. If such was the case, it's not Z's fault that he had to resort to the gun, which he ws legally allowed to carry, to protect himself.

Betcha of the kid knew he had a gun he wouldn't have started in throwing punches. That's the risk people take when CCW permits are out there. They may start in with the wrong guy, like this kid did.


Well as neighborhood watch George should have not been carrying and should have stayed in the car. George was stalking Trayvon and that would have put me on guard. The verdict is in and I am pissed.

[Feanor]

Well as neighborhood watch George should have not been carrying and should have stayed in the car. George was stalking Trayvon and that would have put me on guard. The verdict is in and I am pissed.
The Zimmerman verdict is just and as I predicted. The jury correctly concluded that it was not proven that GZ did not act in justified self-defence.

I personally served as a juror in a case, (sexual assault), where the accused was probably guilty, but the the requirement here in Canada as in the USA is "guilty beyond reasonable doubt", and there was reasonable doubt.

I say again with emphasis that the big contributors to this tragedy were (1) George Zimmerman is an a$$hole -- but that isn't a crime: police-wannabe-ism & profiling are bad things but don't constitute 2nd degree murder; (2) legal permits that allowed GZ to carry a concealed weapon; (3) stand-your-ground laws, which GZ was aware of and that emboldened him to approach Martin armed as he was.

I hear that Martin's family could launch a civil suit for "wrongful death": sounds like they have good case.

[markw]

Well as neighborhood watch George should have not been carrying and should have stayed in the car. George was stalking Trayvon and that would have put me on guard. The verdict is in and I am pissed.I'm sure you'll get over it. Remember, following someone is not a crime and Z had a legal right to carry. Now, if Martin had used his words instead of his fists to express is displeasure, this whole thing could have been avoided. Simple as that.

As for the MSM* lynching Z all along, my initial point in tis thread, this link (http://news.investors.com/ibd-editorials/070513-662690-courtroom-testimony-shatters-media-narrative-about-zimmerman.htm) pretty much sums it up. So how does it feel to have been played like a violin? Like it or not, he was no angel, and I'm sure Obama would be proud to call him his son.

* Main Stream Media for those who are unaware.

[Hyfi]

So Mark, if there were no eyewitnesses, and only a one sided story where the defendant was not even questioned, who can prove that TM threw the first punch OR got on top of GZ and pummeled him with intent to kill him? One witness says the big guy was on top while another says the opposite.

The fact that GZ "Stalked" TM gave the kid enough to worry that he may be in danger and it appears that he tried to protect himself.

Also interesting how GZ shot TM in the heart and not any other spot on the body, that would not have been a "Kill" shot.

Now, just about anyone with a brain knew how this was going to play out, without ever watching TV or reading the press. I knew GZ would walk but did not want him to. Again, GZ should have just taken his due beating and pressed proper charges, he should not have been able to kill the kid and walk away.

I also believe that the whole reason that the media and govt supporters sensationalized this case is because they want to continue keeping the racial lines divided and tension always available for good stories. The Gov also loved how the media blew this all out because it took the focus off of Snowden, Syria, and other issues that hurt americans more than just another dead idiot punk.

On the plus side, properly licensed gun owners with permits have less to worry about if the same situation comes up. Shoot to kill, then never take the stand and with absolutely no credible witnesses, there is nothing that can be proven beyond reasonable doubt.

[markw]

Check out this link (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/65465-the-trayvon-martin-picture-the-mainstream-media-dont-want-you-to-see/). It contains a picture of Martin the day the altercation took place, and the one when he was 12 years old, the one MSM plastered all over the place to crucify Z. I wonder if Obama would still say it looks like the son he never had, particularly now being aware of Martins record

Now, look at a picture of Zimmernman. Zimmernman may be crazy but I doubt he's that stupid.

Z was 5'8 and in not-too good shape. Martin was 6'3 and in good shape and was proud of his fighting skills. Do you really think Z would initiate a physical altercation, even with a gun and, from is classes, knowing the legal implications?

Call it what you want. You want to look and act like a thug, be prepared to be looked upon with a jaundiced eye. I'd be suspicious of someone like that slinking around my neighborhood, too. I'll betcha ther's some lady in Milburn, NJ that would ave loved to have someone like Z patrolling her neighborhood a few weeks ago.

I'd venture a guess that Martin took offense at being watched, which was Zs duty, and viciously attacked Z for that. As for that "taking his due beating, what do you consider "due"? If Martin just decked him to get him off his arse and went away, I'd agree with you but when, from the eyewitness account, he was straddling Z and doing a "ground and pound" with no signs of letting up, he really didn't leave Z too much choice. Wether Martin would have done this knowing Z was legally carrying, dunno, but I kinda doubt it. He seemed to have no remorse using that size/fitness advantage he had over Zl.

Apparantly, in spite if the prosecution lying through their teeth and twisting the truth every which way they could think of, six jurors from that area saw it that way also.

Like I said earlier, it's too bad he didn't "use is words" as they say in schools nowadays.

I do agree with your third paragraph, though. The media loves playing us and Washington certainly uses te diversions to their advantages. Whatever happened to all the Obama scandels?

[Feanor]

Check out this link (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/65465-the-trayvon-martin-picture-the-mainstream-media-dont-want-you-to-see/). It contains a picture of Martin the day the altercation took place, and the one when he was 12 years old, the one MSM plastered all over the place to crucify Z. I wonder if Obama would still say it looks like the son he never had, particularly now being aware of Martins record

Now, look at a picture of Zimmernman. Zimmernman may be crazy but I doubt he's that stupid.

Z was 5'8 and in not-too good shape. Martin was 6'3 and in good shape and was proud of his fighting skills. Do you really think Z would initiate a physical altercation, even with a gun and, from is classes, knowing the legal implications?

Call it what you want. You want to look and act like a thug, be prepared to be looked upon with a jaundiced eye. I'd be suspicious of someone like that slinking around my neighborhood, too. I'll betcha ther's some lady in Milburn, NJ that would ave loved to have someone like Z patrolling her neighborhood a few weeks ago.

I'd venture a guess that Martin took offense at being watched, which was Zs duty, and viciously attacked Z for that. As for that "taking his due beating, what do you consider "due"? If Martin just decked him to get him off his arse and went away, I'd agree with you but when, from the eyewitness account, he was straddling Z and doing a "ground and pound" with no signs of letting up, he really didn't leave Z too much choice. Wether Martin would have done this knowing Z was legally carrying, dunno, but I kinda doubt it. He seemed to have no remorse using that size/fitness advantage he had over Zl.

Apparantly, in spite if the prosecution lying through their teeth and twisting the truth every which way they could think of, six jurors from that area saw it that way also.
...
I`m afraid the understandable sensitivity of black Americans is central to the arrest & trial saga. For better or worse I think Zimmerman`s attorney was right who said that if Martin had be white (or Zimmerman black), Zimmerman would not have been arrested.

No need to whitewash Zimmerman, he was a jerk. He was not doing his duty when he pursued Martin, having been told not to do it by the 911 operator. However being a jerk doesn`t make him a murder and he was entitled to defend himself against a potentially lethal attack -- there is not proof that this was not the case and the jury had the clarity to recognize this.

We cannot allow that emotion overrule the sound principle of law, innocent until proven guilty beyond reasonable doubt.

[Hyfi]

GZ will probably get nailed in the Civil case.

It boggles my mind how someone accused of murder with almost no credible witnesses is not forced to take the stand. I would think things may have turned out different if the jury actually heard GZ stumble over all the hearsay.

[markw]

To add a bit of fuel to the fire, this youtube video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bF-Ax5E8EJc) sheds a bit more light into some of the heretofore dark crevices of this case. It gets a bit off subject towards the end but the analysis of the major players, the confrontation, and the laws involved is pretty telling.

I guarantee some here won't like to hear it, but hey, that's life.

[JohnMichael]

Z was 5'8 and in not-too good shape. Martin was 6'3 and in good shape and was proud of his fighting skills.




Let us check our facts about Trayvon's height. During the trial they compared height several times and Trayvon was always listed as 5 feet 11 inches.

This thread is about the trial and not for bashing President Obama. Stay on topic.

[markw]

Let us check our facts about Trayvon's height. During the trial they compared height several times and Trayvon was always listed as 5 feet 11 inches.

This thread is about the trial and not for bashing President Obama. Stay on topic.Correct. That was addressed in that youtube video I just posted. But, he was still considerably taller and in better conditio than Z. Anything else to add?

I really don't expect any minds to be changed. After all, the media did it's work on poisioning the weak-minded of this nation already.

Bread and circuses... bread and circuses...

[markw]

GZ will probably get nailed in the Civil case.

It boggles my mind how someone accused of murder with almost no credible witnesses is not forced to take the stand. I would think things may have turned out different if the jury actually heard GZ stumble over all the hearsay.Now, why would he want to get on the stand and run the risk of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory when the prosecution practically handed him the victory, what with their own witnesses blowing up in their faces?

Besides, if pleading the 5th amendment is good enough for Lois Lerner, it's good enough for George Zimmerman.

Face it, just because someone dies doesn't make it murder.

[JohnMichael]

Mark no more insults to people. Poisoned the weak-minded. Nice comment for anyone who does not agree with you. Time to be respectful.

[markw]

Mark no more insults to people. Poisoned the weak-minded. Nice comment for anyone who does not agree with you. Time to be respectful.That would only apply to those who refuse to accept facts as the truth when it's pointed out to them. Naturally, nobody fitting that description would be participating in this discussion.

We're all open to the facts and wouldn't let preconceived prejudices or skewed media reporting, even though it might serve to reinforce those preconceived prejudices, interfere with our decision making process, would we? After all, we're at least as good as that jury, aren't we?

[JohnMichael]

Unless you are speaking of the juror who along with her attorney husband tried to strike a book deal.



That would only apply to those who refuse to accept facts as the truth when it's pointed out to them. Naturally, nobody fitting that description would be participating in this discussion.

We're all open to the facts and wouldn't let preconceived prejudices or skewed media reporting, even though it might serve to reinforce those preconceived prejudices, interfere with our decision making process, would we? After all, we're at least as good as that jury, aren't we?

[JohnMichael]

Oh and remember as far as facts we only heard one side of what happened that night.

[markw]

Oh and remember as far as facts we only heard one side of what happened that night.And everhing said, even before the trial, was corroborated by everything that was brought out during the trial. And, when the cop that night lied and said they had everything on videotape, Z said "Thank God". Yeah, a liar would say that.

[Feanor]

GZ will probably get nailed in the Civil case.

It boggles my mind how someone accused of murder with almost no credible witnesses is not forced to take the stand. I would think things may have turned out different if the jury actually heard GZ stumble over all the hearsay.
As I understand, the prosecution cannot force the defendant to take the stand; the defence may do so if it chooses. I suspect it is part of the concept that the defendant should not be forced to incriminate himself.

[Hyfi]

As I understand, the prosecution cannot force the defendant to take the stand; the defence may do so if it chooses. I suspect it is part of the concept that the defendant should not be forced to incriminate himself.

Yeah, I understand that but if he did nothing wrong, had nothing to lie about, and could corroborate everything being said, he should have been jumping at the chance to clear himself.

My view is if YOU are on trial for anything, YOU should be questioned by both sides. This would shorten these trials a great deal and we would not have to listen to weeks of 2nd hand hearsay.

[frenchmon]

Call it what you want. You want to look and act like a thug, be prepared to be looked upon with a jaundiced eye. I'd be suspicious of someone like that slinking around my neighborhood, too.

And what is that suppose to mean? Explain your self?

[frenchmon]

I`m afraid the understandable sensitivity of black Americans is central to the arrest & trial saga. For better or worse I think Zimmerman`s attorney was right who said that if Martin had be white (or Zimmerman black), Zimmerman would not have been arrested.



Feanor...when Zimmermans lawyer said that I was floored....and for you to repeat it shows you dont know what you are talking about. So all of a sudden the law is going soft on black guys who kill white guys? Is THAT what they do in Canada? Because it sure aint where I live. That was a stupid thing to say.

[frenchmon]

GZ will probably get nailed in the Civil case.

It boggles my mind how someone accused of murder with almost no credible witnesses is not forced to take the stand. I would think things may have turned out different if the jury actually heard GZ stumble over all the hearsay.

Hyfi..im with you! I watched every minute of the trial, and the prosecutor's blew this one. I could have done a better job and got Zimmerman at least on MS charges. But they had not a clue. The case wasn't that hard either. Zimmermans statements showed so many lies it aint funny. And how in the hell did they not get at least one black person on the jury? That just not right....thats total BS.

But to tell you the truth, from listening to juror B37, Martin never had a chance. Did you see her on CNN? They never even considered anything about Martin really...from what she was saying, they believed Zimmerman was innocent from the get go.

[markw]

And what is that suppose to mean? Explain your self?
OK, you asked for it, you got it.

Some kids today strive for the thug look. You really should know that. If not, get on the social media or twatch he local news and see what's going on.

In the off chance you really don't now what I'm taling about, this link (http://www.hitupmyspots.com/s/index.php?q=Thug+look&page=1) should give you an idea of what I'm talking about. If you've seen some of his posed pictures, you'll see he fits right in here. ...and that candid shot in the convenience store wouldn't be out of place either.

This kid succeeded. If you want to slink through a neighborhood at night that's been regularly burglarized over the past few years with a hoodie in Flordia, where it's hot, you better expect to draw stares. Sorry if you don't like it, but them's the apples.

And, I really don't expect too much from someone who called Woods a liar up front. Like your mind wasn't made up before the trial.

Satisfied?

[markw]

So all of a sudden the law is going soft on black guys who kill white guys? The media certainly is.

If you read my other posts ere you'll see one where I posted a link where two back guys who shot a baby in the face in is stroller.

I posted another where three (assumed fron te neighborhood it took place in) where three, count 'em THREE, black guys beat a 70 ear-old man with a baseball bat for accidentaly tappingtheir car while parking. ...he later died.

ow about the one where two black kids chased a random 13 year -old white kid in Oklahoma to his porch, threw lighter fluid (or gasoline) on him, hlit im on fire, and said something like "You deserve this, whitey".

Please note that in all three cases, whitey was outnumbered at least two to one. Now, if that's not thuggery on parade, I don't know what is.

So, where's the media coverage for this?

Drop it. I can dig up more unreported black on white crime if you really want.

Oh, check out this link (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/16/Black-Juror-Cut-From-Zimmerman-Jury-For-Watching-Fox-News). You'll see the prosecutor threw out a black juror. You'll love the reason why.

[markw]

Now that Rachel Jeantel using her fifteen minutes of fame hitting the talk show circuit and she's not under oath, she's letting out some interesting tidbits.

It appears there may have been some bigotry involved after all, but it's not white on black

If you want to get aother perspective on what happened that night, rather than my posting any one of the many links on this, go to google and type in the following: "trayvon thought zimmerman was gay". Take your time reading the links that are returned.

Good going, Jenteal. You're doing Trayvons reputation real good.

Enjoy your fifteen minutes.

[frenchmon]

OK, you asked for it, you got it.

Some kids today strive for the thug look. You really should know that. If not, get on the social media or twatch he local news and see what's going on.

In the off chance you really don't now what I'm taling about, this link (http://www.hitupmyspots.com/s/index.php?q=Thug+look&page=1) should give you an idea of what I'm talking about. If you've seen some of his posed pictures, you'll see he fits right in here. ...and that candid shot in the convenience store wouldn't be out of place either.

This kid succeeded. If you want to slink through a neighborhood at night that's been regularly burglarized over the past few years with a hoodie in Flordia, where it's hot, you better expect to draw stares. Sorry if you don't like it, but them's the apples.

And, I really don't expect too much from someone who called Woods a liar up front. Like your mind wasn't made up before the trial.

Satisfied?

From what I saw, all Trayvon had on was a grey hoody and jeans. In the picture in the store he looked like a thug to you?

[JohnMichael]

From what I saw, all Trayvon had on was a grey hoody and jeans. In the picture in the store he looked like a thug to you?


I have reached a point as a member that markw is not worth the time arguing unless you want to debate him. He takes the bully pulpit more than anyone and is too rigid in his thinking. He is why I moved your thread to the Steel Cage. I have to deal with my own sadness over recent events and reading what he thinks is not helping with my healing. Prejudice is alive and well in this country and I miss France.

[frenchmon]

The media certainly is.

If you read my other posts ere you'll see one where I posted a link where two back guys who shot a baby in the face in is stroller.

Bull ****...the two guys got charged with murder.


I posted another where three (assumed fron te neighborhood it took place in) where three, count 'em THREE, black guys beat a 70 ear-old man with a baseball bat for accidentaly tappingtheir car while parking. ...he later died.

ow about the one where two black kids chased a random 13 year -old white kid in Oklahoma to his porch, threw lighter fluid (or gasoline) on him, hlit im on fire, and said something like "You deserve this, whitey".

Please note that in all three cases, whitey was outnumbered at least two to one. Now, if that's not thuggery on parade, I don't know what is.

So, where's the media coverage for this?

Drop it. I can dig up more unreported black on white crime if you really want.

I cant find any reference to the other stories so I wont believe them until I see reference. But still....thats not to say the law is going soft on black guys. Thats total bull ****!


Oh, check out this link (http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Journalism/2013/07/16/Black-Juror-Cut-From-Zimmerman-Jury-For-Watching-Fox-News). You'll see the prosecutor threw out a black juror. You'll love the reason why.

Who cares...that has nothing to do with my conversation with you as to why Martin was a thug in your eyes.

[frenchmon]

Now that Rachel Jeantel using her fifteen minutes of fame hitting the talk show circuit and she's not under oath, she's letting out some interesting tidbits.

It appears there may have been some bigotry involved after all, but it's not white on black

If you want to get aother perspective on what happened that night, rather than my posting any one of the many links on this, go to google and type in the following: "trayvon thought zimmerman was gay". Take your time reading the links that are returned.

Good going, Jenteal. You're doing Trayvons reputation real good.

Enjoy your fifteen minutes.

that came out in the trial...where you not watching?

[markw]

So, if you're sayin that if you're black it's OK to "whup arse" on someone you think is gay? OK That's a new take.

And the funny part is here I am arguing with one of each. Ironic, isn't it.

Well, it's obvious that at least two people here won't be swayed by facts. The baiters won.

One last time, it ain't about race. It's about one guy viciously attacking another who, unknown to the first, was armed. In spite of the biased media and the professional race-baiters, justice prevailed.

It's too bad some of this country, particularly our racist administration, can't admit that and work hard to set the races against each other, even more than they were ten years ago.

You might be interested to hear Ted Nugents (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/15/ted-nugent-says-lesson-in-trayvon-martin-incident-teach-your-children-not-to-attack-people/) take on this

Enjoy your lives of hatred and bigorty, boys. You made it yourself and you've earned it.

In the words of Paul Simon.
"I am just a poor boy
Though my story’s seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest"

[Hyfi]

Hyfi..im with you! I watched every minute of the trial, and the prosecutor's blew this one. I could have done a better job and got Zimmerman at least on MS charges. But they had not a clue. The case wasn't that hard either. Zimmermans statements showed so many lies it aint funny. And how in the hell did they not get at least one black person on the jury? That just not right....thats total BS.

But to tell you the truth, from listening to juror B37, Martin never had a chance. Did you see her on CNN? They never even considered anything about Martin really...from what she was saying, they believed Zimmerman was innocent from the get go.

Frenchmon, I watched as little of this crap as I could help. I happened to be on vacation one of the weeks and my friend that I stayed with is addicted to bad news so it was on some of the time, just the news parts and clips of the trial. I would never waste my precious time on this circus act. You knew what the outcome was going to be from the beginning when GZ was not arrested and charged with something on day 1.

There was no jury of piers and certainly not enough of them. Can't Florida afford to have 12 like the norm? It does turn out that TM was a thug of sorts BUT he was also profiled by a wannabe tough guy who should really have been at the gym or a Weight Watchers meeting and not playing tough guy with a gun. That is one reason I seldom carry even tho I have a permit. If it has to come out of the holster, it is most likely going to be used.

If your going to be a Watchman, then Watch and report. He should have never left his car.

Now I am still confused as to how this is even a black and white issue when GZ is Latino, not white. But it does not matter, Big Brother wants the races divided and the lines between to remain. If not, they would not be in place.

Anyway, as pointed out several times earlier, and I for one agree with Mark in almost all of his points, this media circus was designed to captivate people with no life that can be sucked in and swayed at the drop of a Big Mac. It was used to divert the whole countries attention from real travesties going on in the US as well as those the US is responsible for in other countries around the world.

Like Mark points out from his neck of the woods, I get totally depressed every morning when I turn on the local news to hear about all the killings overnight. Many of these are more horrific and gruesome than the TM-GZ case but you hear about it once and it's on to the next crime. The majority of the ones reported are black on black or black on white. That may or may not be part of the Media Game but it is pretty easy to check out the statistics and they are not easy to dispute.

The one case around here getting some attention is where they demolished a building and part of it fell on a Salvation Army store killing several shoppers. The guy running the equipment was on pain killers and pot (which by itself I have no issues with) and the stupid Demo company did not follow the protocols and make sure all surrounding businesses were empty. The operator did not look like he was qualified to be a Street Bum, but he had a nice high paying job running heavy equipment. The Building Inspector committed suicide after the incident and the operator is charged with the deaths of the shoppers. This to me is far more important and will have more effected outcome than a racially motivated, profiled and stalked, Murder when the tables got turned on a wannabe Ahole.

As I stated earlier, the best outcome of this case is that if I stalk someone and they turn the tables on me, I can shoot to kill and walk. It is a big win for us gun toting crazies, don't you agree?

[Feanor]

Feanor...when Zimmermans lawyer said that I was floored....and for you to repeat it shows you dont know what you are talking about. So all of a sudden the law is going soft on black guys who kill white guys? Is THAT what they do in Canada? Because it sure aint where I live. That was a stupid thing to say.
NO, I did not imply that "the law is soft on black guys who kill white guys": that is entirely your mis-construction. As for knowing what I talking about, I know what CNN and MSNBC convey; I can't pretend to see things like a typical black American.

When the case first broke I got the sense that many black Americans believed that an innocent, unarmed black youth had been callously gunned down by a white guy, and that the latter was getting away with it mainly on account of their respective racial affiliations. If I'm wrong about that, you can let me know. So what I did imply was that the prosecution of a white guy, (a "white Hispanic" as a black lady on MSNBC put it), proceeded mainly because of black Americans' sensitivity, not mainly on account of the FACTS on the ground.

The demonstrable FACTS that emerged pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman encounter clearly didn't not prove murder. Did Zimmerman "profile" Martin? More likely than not. Should Zimmerman not have pursued Martin, especially after being told not to? Obviously. But the former can't be proven and isn't (as yet) a crime; the latter is not (as yet) a crime. What IS a crime is assaulting a person: knocking him to the ground, punching him, and beating his head on the ground; the assaulted person may defend himself against such an potentially assault with available means. This is the way the local police interpreted the crime scene -- and this is what the demonstrable FACTS support. (If you don't like the facts and would prefer to go with your "gut" about what happened, then you are an enemy of just criminal process.)

As for Canada, as I explained in earlier posts, Zimmerman would not have be allowed to carry a gun and would not have a stand-your-ground defence. Any neighbourhood watch person who shoot a person would be charged with manslaughter at least as a matter of course, and the burden of proof would have shifted heavily to him to show self-defence required shooting. Even if he succeed to prove self-defence, he would face separate, serious firearms charges that would send him to jail.

Does profiling of young black males happen in Canada? I suspect so in certain areas of the country.

[frenchmon]

So, if you're sayin that if you're black it's OK to "whup arse" on someone you think is gay? OK That's a new take.

You about as stupid as they come! But thats nothing new. You stupidity shows in you saying what you just asked me above. I never said that. You said that as if I was saying that.


And the funny part is here I am arguing with one of each. Ironic, isn't it.

No thats not the funny part....not at all...the funny part is you are listening to spin put out by Rush! By Rush of all people....hahahahaha...boy, he has you hook line and sinker! Rush???!!! You have no credibility....Rush?!?!...hahahahaha! Maybe its not funny after all, but just down right stupid to follow the greatest spin doctor on radio! Hahahahaha!


Well, it's obvious that at least two people here won't be swayed by facts. The baiters won.

Especially if you get it from Rush...hahahaha! And you're stupid!


One last time, it ain't about race. It's about one guy viciously attacking another who, unknown to the first, was armed. In spite of the biased media and the professional race-baiters, justice prevailed.


Oh those are the facts? How do you know Trayvon attacked Zimmerman? Where you there? Because the two little scratches on Zimmermans head really dont show what you call a vicious attack. More like whoop AZZZ!


It's too bad some of this country, particularly our racist administration, can't admit that and work hard to set the races against each other, even more than they were ten years ago.

Oh yeah...what about you? You seem pretty racist it seems.


You might be interested to hear Ted Nugents (http://dailycaller.com/2013/07/15/ted-nugent-says-lesson-in-trayvon-martin-incident-teach-your-children-not-to-attack-people/) take on this

You are more stupid than I first thought! You listen to Ted Nugent? Hahahahahaha! Boy you are stupid as all get out! So let me understand this....you look at FoxNews....You get your Gospel from Rush....and you are a follower of Ted Nugent!....hahahahahaha....that is just down right funny as hell....Markw...calls throwing out the race card but follows 2 people and a news program that are known to spin everything. Hahahaha! Foxnews, Rush, and Ted Nugent, are doing everything they can to take this country to slave days, but you follow them! And all 3 are doing everything in their power to disenfranchise minorities...and you are right there with them.....hahahahah MARKW Exposed for what he is....A RACIST!


Enjoy your lives of hatred and bigorty, boys. You made it yourself and you've earned it.

No....you are the one thats bitter! When you see a person with a hoddy, you automatically think he is a thug! Thats sad.....I know people like you....you see a black guy with a hoody on and automatically think he is up to no good. We all know you have been exposed...you are the racist! We can all tell it by your remarks...deep inside you cant stand people of color....you listen to Rush, follow Ted Nugent, and watch FoxNews....and spit hate words out against black people in hoody's.


In the words of Paul Simon.
"I am just a poor boy
Though my story’s seldom told
I have squandered my resistance
For a pocketful of mumbles
Such are promises
All lies and jest
Still, a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest"

If Paul Simon knew a person such as yourself was using his words, im sure he would ask you to stop! Simon is about peace and love...two things you know nothing about!

For all those who are reading this...please excuse my behavior here but some one needs to call MARKW out for what he really is...a BIGOT and a racist!

I'm done in this section to return no more.....I signed on to this forum to talk audio....and got side tract by the case...not to argue with such people as MARKW, who obviously dont have a clue into the make up of minorities....or the rights of people,but only wants to keep minorities and others down as long as he can...people like him walk around talking about "taking this country back"...and saying "Obama was not born in the USA" and other foolish things hate peddlers and race batters do.

[frenchmon]

NO, I did not imply that "the law is soft on black guys who kill white guys": that is entirely your mis-construction. As for knowing what I talking about, I know what CNN and MSNBC convey; I can't pretend to see things like a typical black American.

When the case first broke I got the sense that many black Americans believed that an innocent, unarmed black youth had been callously gunned down by a white guy, and that the latter was getting away with it mainly on account of their respective racial affiliations. If I'm wrong about that, you can let me know. So what I did imply was that the prosecution of a white guy, (a "white Hispanic" as a black lady on MSNBC put it), proceeded mainly because of black Americans' sensitivity, not mainly on account of the FACTS on the ground.

The demonstrable FACTS that emerged pertaining to the Martin/Zimmerman encounter clearly didn't not prove murder. Did Zimmerman "profile" Martin? More likely than not. Should Zimmerman not have pursued Martin, especially after being told not to? Obviously. But the former can't be proven and isn't (as yet) a crime; the latter is not (as yet) a crime. What IS a crime is assaulting a person: knocking him to the ground, punching him, and beating his head on the ground; the assaulted person may defend himself against such an potentially assault with available means. This is the way the local police interpreted the crime scene -- and this is what the demonstrable FACTS support. (If you don't like the facts and would prefer to go with your "gut" about what happened, then you are an enemy of just criminal process.)

As for Canada, as I explained in earlier posts, Zimmerman would not have be allowed to carry a gun and would not have a stand-your-ground defence. Any neighbourhood watch person who shoot a person would be charged with manslaughter at least as a matter of course, and the burden of proof would have shifted heavily to him to show self-defence required shooting. Even if he succeed to prove self-defence, he would face separate, serious firearms charges that would send him to jail.

Does profiling of young black males happen in Canada? I suspect so in certain areas of the country.


Fenor...who saw these so called facts:


knocking him to the ground, punching him, and beating his head on the ground;

That is only what I want to know from you now...who saw Trayvon knock him to the ground and punch him and beat his head into the ground?

Kindly answer that please.

[Hyfi]

Why did they not make GZ squeal like a baby and then use Voice Analyzing software to determine if it was a match of the recording? They have that technology available and it has been used in the past.

[markw]

Uhhh, Frenchy, I hate to tell you this, but I honestly believe that everyone here is fully capable of reading this entire thread and deciding for themselves who the real racists and bigots are. Not everyoe needs a Jackson, Sharpton, or Holder to tell them how to think or are that easily swayed by emotion.

I'm not goig to do a line-by-line dissection of your rambling, incoherent post. It wouldn't do any good. Haters gonna hate.

But, if you really, really want to learn something, view the clip in this link (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/larry-elder-explodes-at-piers-over-zimmerman-youre-condescending-stupid-should-be-ashamed-of-yourself/) but, somehow, I think this was covered in the Paul Simon quote in my previous thread.

It's funny: You started this thread, gleefully reporting eery instance where you thought they would "get Ziimmerman", even whe the newscaters weren't so confident. My main input was on how the media handled this i such a one-sided fashion. AS the rrial progressed, your glee diminished ad for a long tome you didn't really say anything. But, when all the facts were in and the jury ruled, then you went off on that "they hate blacks" thing again. Yeah, tell me again who is the racist.

[frenchmon]

Why did they not make GZ squeal like a baby and then use Voice Analyzing software to determine if it was a match of the recording? They have that technology available and it has been used in the past.

Judge would not let it in...she says technology is not good, and no case law on it. But the surprising part about it....was the guys who do that sort of stuff had already did it, and determined it was Trayvons scream.

Any body who believe Zimmerman is living in a different world. Right up to the shot you heard the scream. According to Zimmerman, the gun was inside his pants,,,in the holster over his back pocket, (So how did Trayvon see it) while he is laying on his back, with Trayvons hands over his mouth and nose, and at the same time screaming like a 17 year old as he is pointing his gun at his chest and then Martin says he continued to scream as he pulled the trigger? Makes no sense....Zimmerman doing the screaming for help as he points the gun?

[frenchmon]

Uhhh, Frenchy, I hate to tell you this, but I honestly believe that everyone here is fully capable of reading this entire thread and deciding for themselves who the real racists and bigots are. Not everyoe needs a Jackson, Sharpton, or Holder to tell them how to think or are that easily swayed by emotion.

I'm not goig to do a line-by-line dissection of your rambling, incoherent post. It wouldn't do any good. Haters gonna hate.

But, if you really, really want to learn something, view the clip in this link (http://www.mediaite.com/tv/larry-elder-explodes-at-piers-over-zimmerman-youre-condescending-stupid-should-be-ashamed-of-yourself/) but, somehow, I think this was covered in the Paul Simon quote in my previous thread.

You see...I never mentioned any of those guys...you did. Proves you have issues with them because they seek civil rights for minorities and ethnic groups in this country and you cant take it!

We know what you are...one of those older white guys who cant take the fact that the country is changing and people like you are being left behind....you're scared to death. You cling to your guns...yeah that makes you feel like a big man...when actually your an old white bigot! and I dont feel sorry for people like you, because you should know better.

You hate to see black people or any minority or gay person with power or have rights....you're a racist and a funking bigot...go ahead, have the last word as all Bigot's do. I'm done for sure.

[Hyfi]

Yeah, Voice technology is no good but asking people to identify someone via a recording is way more reputable. All second hand accounts are way better than making the defendant take the stand and answering questions under oath in his own words.

See now you know why this whole case was just a Media Circus Act to distract the public at large from REAL issues. The whole case was a joke from the time of the shooting.

Now, if you followed any of the clips Mark linked, specially the first one, you would have seen the history of both individuals. TM was a no good drug addicted thug in reality, but GZ did not KNOW that at the time.

[Hyfi]

You see...I never mentioned any of those guys...you did. Proves you have issues with them because they seek civil rights for minorities and ethnic groups in this country and you cant take it!



Sorry, but I also have issues with people like Sharpton who got involved in the Twanna Brawly issue where she smeared dog sh!t on herself and jumped into a trash can and then blamed it on Whitey. Credibility goes way down for these guys when they jump on that kind of band wagon.

By the way, I am also a Gun Toting Middle Aged (Older) White Guy. I cling to my Legally Purchased and Licensed guns. I cling to my Right to have a Permit to Carry. And now after this case, I will cling to the fact that I can more easily defend myself if I choose. I don't have issues with blacks or gays in a position of power IF they earned it and were not just hired and pushed up the ladder due to Affirmative Action.

[markw]

You see...I never mentioned any of those guys...you did. Proves you have issues with them because they seek civil rights for minorities and ethnic groups in this country and you cant take it!

We know what you are...one of those older white guys who cant take the fact that the country is changing and people like you are being left behind....you're scared to death. You cling to your guns...yeah that makes you feel like a big man...when actually your an old white bigot! and I dont feel sorry for people like you, because you should know better.

You hate to see black people or any minority or gay person with power or have rights....you're a racist and a funking bigot...go ahead, have the last word as all Bigot's do. I'm done for sure.You see, those race-baiters control the hearts and minds of a goodly percent of "your people", and the media gives them the forum to do so. ...and so many blindly follow them blindly, right back into the ground from which they were rising, at least until Obama took over. Are you part of that percentage? It surely seems so.

Did you view that link? Nooooo.

Yeah, you're done ...right

[frenchmon]

Sorry, but I also have issues with people like Sharpton who got involved in the Twanna Brawly issue where she smeared dog sh!t on herself and jumped into a trash can and then blamed it on Whitey. Credibility goes way down for these guys when they jump on that kind of band wagon.

By the way, I am also a Gun Toting Middle Aged (Older) White Guy. I cling to my Legally Purchased and Licensed guns. I cling to my Right to have a Permit to Carry. And now after this case, I will cling to the fact that I can more easily defend myself if I choose. I don't have issues with blacks or gays in a position of power IF they earned it and were not just hired and pushed up the ladder due to Affirmative Action.

Hyfi, you and I are about the same age...I have a gun, and have no issues with legal rights of any race... you never came off as a racist or bigot either. Let me give you the test.....did you think Trayvon was a thug because he wore a hoody? And do you have a problem with blacks because they are black or problems with civil rights for gays?

[Hyfi]

Hyfi, you and I are about the same age...I have a gun, and have no issues with legal rights of any race... you never came off as a racist or bigot either. Let me give you the test.....did you think Trayvon was a thug because he wore a hoody? And do you have a problem with blacks because they are black or gays?

Do I think TM was a thug only because he wore a Hoody? No, but I do have issues with a whole generation of young people who strive to dress like thugs. Hoodies in 90 degree wheather, pants falling down, hats on sideways and so on. Today, white kids are all now trying to dress like the black kids and blast the most horrid music from their cars trying to draw unnecessary attention to themselves. It makes both races look like idiots and thugs.

Do I have problems with Black people or Gays just because they are Black or Gay? No but I have problems with those who choose to remind us about it any chance they get. I don't like it used as a Reverse. I do not preface my conversation with weather I am White or Straight and I don't think anyone else needs to do it the other way around. I have issues with Affirmative Action and those given a free pass.

I have several Gay friends and work mates. One of my work mates went from a Guy to a Gal over the last 2 years. I don't care as long as they are happy. I get good home decor and cooking tips from one of my gay couple friends.

I really think you are overly dumping Mark into a Label or Labels because he has continued to point out things that were wrong with this whole trial. As far as where he gets his news from, ALL News Outlets are funded and swayed by a political agenda and money. If you believe otherwise, you could be the fool here. You nor anyone else can dispute the fact that this whole case was blown way out of proportion and turned into a media circus to distract the mainstream from far more critical issues. Again, if you don't believe that....

[Feanor]

That is only what I want to know from you now...who saw Trayvon knock him to the ground and punch him and beat his head into the ground?

Kindly answer that please.
That is what GZ contended: witnesses' testimony could not refute it and the crime scene evidence tended to support it, not refute it.

Get you mind around the fact that GZ MIGHT of been guilty of shooting Martin when that wasn't necessary for self-defence BUT THAT WAS NOT PROVEN, so he walked.

[Feanor]

You see...I never mentioned any of those guys...you did. Proves you have issues with them because they seek civil rights for minorities and ethnic groups in this country and you cant take it!

We know what you are...one of those older white guys who cant take the fact that the country is changing and people like you are being left behind....you're scared to death. You cling to your guns...yeah that makes you feel like a big man...when actually your an old white bigot! and I dont feel sorry for people like you, because you should know better.

You hate to see black people or any minority or gay person with power or have rights....you're a racist and a funking bigot...go ahead, have the last word as all Bigot's do. I'm done for sure.
I'm an old, white guy who would be very sorry indeed to see certain changes. One of the changes I hate to see would be "affirmative action" in the criminal process: viz. waiving the requirement of proof beyond reasonable doubt where there is black alleged victim and a white alleged perpetrator. This is what many black Americans seemed to want in the case of the Zimmerman prosecution.

[markw]

Anaybody want a good example of why blacks don't seem to get looked at the same as other races?

Check out this video (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/66464-video-black-panthers-offer-bounty-for-zimmerman/).

Oh, yeah. That's really gonna turn out well for all blacks, isn't it?

Frenchy, I'm being serious here. Your people are doing this to themselves. The same laws apply to both races. Have you any idea how may blacks walk on technicalities after commiting henious crimes? No...

Hell, the thug who beat ahd kicked the shiite out of that tiny woman in the Milburn home invasion a few weeks ago had been in and out of jail for violent crimes TWELVE times before that happened. and they're harder on blacks harder than whites?

[Hyfi]

Anaybody want a good example of why blacks don't seem to get looked at the same as other races?

Check out this video (http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/66464-video-black-panthers-offer-bounty-for-zimmerman/).

Oh, yeah. That's really gonna turn out well for all blacks, isn't it?

Frenchy, I'm being serious here. Your people are doing this to themselves. The same laws apply to both races. Have you any idea how may blacks walk on technicalities after commiting henious crimes? No...

Hell, the thug who beat ahd kicked the shiite out of that tiny woman in the Milburn home invasion a few weeks ago had been in and out of jail for violent crimes TWELVE times before that happened. and they're harder on blacks harder than whites?

LOL, "we are not even citizens in this country, we are 3rd class citizens" This guy needs some serious education. And yes, they give themselves a bad name.

OK so here is one in reverse. Last year at the 50th anniversary Puerto Rican Day parade in Philadelphia, a huge black State Trooper "Sucker Punched" a skinny little woman because he "thought" she threw something at him. It was caught on tape so there is no questions like there are in the GZ case. Guess what? He walked and got his job right back. He got the Free Pass!

Watch the far left of video at 6 seconds in.

LiveLeak.com - Philadelphia Cop Sucker Punches Woman (comments) (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fba_1349120640&comments=1)

Some of the comments at the bottom are spot on.

[frenchmon]

Do I think TM was a thug only because he wore a Hoody? No, but I do have issues with a whole generation of young people who strive to dress like thugs. Hoodies in 90 degree wheather, pants falling down, hats on sideways and so on. Today, white kids are all now trying to dress like the black kids and blast the most horrid music from their cars trying to draw unnecessary attention to themselves. It makes both races look like idiots and thugs.

What do you mean today??? Hell they been doing it for years.

Do I have problems with Black people or Gays just because they are Black or Gay? No but I have problems with those who choose to remind us about it any chance they get. I don't like it used as a Reverse. I do not preface my conversation with weather I am White or Straight and I don't think anyone else needs to do it the other way around. I have issues with Affirmative Action and those given a free pass.

I have several Gay friends and work mates. One of my work mates went from a Guy to a Gal over the last 2 years. I don't care as long as they are happy. I get good home decor and cooking tips from one of my gay couple friends.


I really think you are overly dumping Mark into a Label or Labels because he has continued to point out things that were wrong with this whole trial. As far as where he gets his news from, ALL News Outlets are funded and swayed by a political agenda and money. If you believe otherwise, you could be the fool here. You nor anyone else can dispute the fact that this whole case was blown way out of proportion and turned into a media circus to distract the mainstream from far more critical issues. Again, if you don't believe that....

I am tired of people blaming everything on the news service....we all know they cover stories that's going to make them money, and they will put spin on it...but facts are facts no matter what.....as far a MW....I know people like that.....In my 50 + years of living as a black man, who has been called the N work on more than a few accessions by whites, who has been denied certain things due to me because of my skin color....who has been racially profiled by white people and harassed by the cops because of my skin color......I can smell people like MarkW a mile away.

Because of income me and wife make, we live in middle class hoods...where the nicer homes are, and the majority are white....my kids attend majority white schools , and I can tell you, her age group cant care less about racial problems...they think its silly which it is. But on the night GZ was proven not guilty, people in my majority white hood started popping fire crackers....sorry Hyfi, this is no ill towards you at all, but just my take on markW and the silliness of it all. GZ went free....do I think he is really guilty? Yes....Do I think he lied ...Hell yes....do I think the prosecutor messed up? Heck yes. Did the jury over look important information and mess over the facts...yes they did. Its interesting juror 37B came out and she is not the brights tool in the shed...and then the 4 other jurors distanced them selves from her....and juror 29 has yet to say a word. I bet she is the one who initially saw GZ guilty and I bet she was the only one to give in at the end before she fell to pressure and I bet she was the minority on the jury.

[Hyfi]

Frenchmon, I am not blaming the outcome on the media. I am blaming the media for its dis-service to America by blowing this whole thing into a circus act and televising the whole thing to distract us from bigger issues AND to keep racial tensions high. It makes for more good news.

Now on to the N word. Why is it OK for blacks to constantly call each other the N word but as soon as Whitey says it all hell breaks loose?

I guess I am a Cracker, so what.

Again, I am not following any of what the jurors have said and posting in this thread along with reading a few headlines is the most attention I will waste. It's more out of boredom and I like good debates.

As per my post and link above, it does not even matter if something is caught on tape to prove the guilt.

[JohnMichael]

Wow one small group speaks for an entire population. Westboro Baptist Church speaks for all Christians. The Hell's Angels represents all motorcycle riders. Neil Patrick Harris and Nate Berkus represent all gays. K. D. Lang and Gordon Lightfoot are like every Canadians, eh. Now I know where to send my lightly used white sheets.

[Hyfi]

Wow one small group speaks for an entire population. Westboro Baptist Church speaks for all Christians. The Hell's Angels represents all motorcycle riders. Neil Patrick Harris and Nate Berkus represent all gays. K. D. Lang and Gordon Lightfoot are like every Canadians, eh. Now I know where to send my lightly used white sheets.

Just like all the "Good Muslims" just sit back and let the bad ones define who they are. Complacency is not the answer and Black People in general should rally to shut the Black Panthers down. But they support them instead so that is how they are defined. And I can only guess you are implying that ONLY the Panthers feel that way and all other black people think something different from that statement???

[markw]

One of my work mates went from a Guy to a Gal over the last 2 years. I don't care as long as they are happy. I get good home decor and cooking tips from one of my gay couple friends.Well, that's nice to know. Stereotype much?




I am tired of people blaming everything on the news service....we all know they cover stories that's going to make them money, and they will put spin on it...but facts are facts no matter what.....as far a MW....I know people like that.....In my 50 + years of living as a black man, who has been called the N work on more than a few accessions by whites, who has been denied certain things due to me because of my skin color....who has been racially profiled by white people and harassed by the cops because of my skin color......


I can smell people like MarkW a mile away.Well, you would be very surprised if you ever met my cliet base and church. And, from your posts that dwell on your skin color, I know your type as well. You've got a big chip on your shoulders. Maybe others sense that as well and react to it. And, if it makes you feel any better, I've had a few black clients walk past me and go directly to my less experienced black trainee, even though I usually had to fiis the job. See? You're not alone.


Because of income me and wife make, we live in middle class hoods...where the nicer homes are, and the majority are white....my kids attend majority white schools , and I can tell you, her age group cant care less about racial problems...they think its silly which it is.Then your kids are wiser than you are. You should learn from them.


But on the night GZ was proven not guilty, people in my majority white hood started popping fire crackers....sorry Hyfi, this is no ill towards you at all, but just my take on markW and the silliness of it all. GZ went free.So, you think I celebrated this? You're wrong. I simply reacted to others reactions that "they wuz robbed" oftheir crucifixion. I think I said it was a tragedy that one of two ashholes died somewhere in here, but you probably didn't read that.

Personally, seeing you're so intospeculation here, after seeing the interview with Rachel Jeantel (sp?), I feel kinda sorry for Trayvon. I think her telling him that Zimerman was gay and wanted to rape him incited Trayvon to do some "whup azz" on him (read some of those links)


...do I think he is really guilty? Yes....Do I think he lied ...Hell yes....do I think the prosecutor messed up? Heck yes. Did the jury over look important information and mess over the facts...yes they did.Then you want the justice/legal system changes so it works according to color then. I also recall you saying early on that one of the witness's was practing telling lies for a year now. Gotcha.


Its interesting juror 37B came out and she is not the brights tool in the shed...and then the 4 other jurors distanced them selves from her....and juror 29 has yet to say a word. I bet she is the one who initially saw GZ guilty and I bet she was the only one to give in at the end before she fell to pressure and I bet she was the minority on the jury.Uh, I wouldn't like anyone speaking for me either but ultimately, all six eventually voted him not guitly. And, they COULD have not returned a verict if any of the jury didn't agree. That's called a "hung jury" and it does happen. Of course, you don't think it's possible that when reviewing all the evidence and discussing it with the others, the other three eventually saw the light? Of course not!

[Hyfi]

Well, that's nice to know. Stereotype much?


Hey, there is a lot to be said for the Que@r Eye for the Straight Guy.

My word, I can't even use the word Que.... in the correct context here

[JohnMichael]

Just like all the "Good Muslims" just sit back and let the bad ones define who they are. Complacency is not the answer and Black People in general should rally to shut the Black Panthers down. But they support them instead so that is how they are defined. And I can only guess you are implying that ONLY the Panthers feel that way and all other black people think something different from that statement???


Then you and I should shut down the KKK and white supremacist groups. If we do not that is the same as us supporting them?

[markw]

Then you and I should shut down the KKK and white supremacist groups. If we do not that is the same as us supporting them?
As it stands, they are so marginalized that nobody is dumb enough to take them seriously, they get no press coverage, nobody listens to them, or even cares what they say. They are jokes to everone except themselves.

When they get the press coverage that professionnal race-baiters like Jackson, Sharpton, New Blalck Panthers, Holder, and Obama do, then they will be a threat to our society, and we'll worry about it then.

As for Westboro Babdist, if you'll notice,whe they announce they will be having a presence, there's usually a goodly number of people who show up to prevent them from otaing their goal. Here's what happened when they tried to pull their stuff at Texas A & M, about as bible-belt a school as you'll find. Go Aggies! (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/22/westboro-baptist-church_n_1693548.html)

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, I am not blaming the outcome on the media. I am blaming the media for its dis-service to America by blowing this whole thing into a circus act and televising the whole thing to distract us from bigger issues AND to keep racial tensions high. It makes for more good news.

Now on to the N word. Why is it OK for blacks to constantly call each other the N word but as soon as Whitey says it all hell breaks loose?

I guess I am a Cracker, so what.

Again, I am not following any of what the jurors have said and posting in this thread along with reading a few headlines is the most attention I will waste. It's more out of boredom and I like good debates.

As per my post and link above, it does not even matter if something is caught on tape to prove the guilt.

Hyfi...

Actually I think its ignorant for any one to use that word. the younger blacks using that word is stupid and don't seem to understand the pain of slavery....most of them can't understand because of not being educated enough to undertand the history. Now dont get me wrong, there are tons and tons of respectable blacks and young blacks in the hood who are getting educated....the so called media wont write about that, and other people wont most of America to think all blacks are dumb and uneducated, but thats far from the truth.

The reason why Blacks can call each other that is because it does not mean the same coming from a black. Its like one black either cussing another black or one black using it as a term of endearment. coming from a white person to a black is like like the worse thing you can say...it brings back the pain of slavery and all that blacks have lost. And a white man can never ever use that word as a term of endearment.....so its a no no to most blacks coming from a white person. Actually I know some white people who genuinely feel bad about slavery...and I also klnow some who want to bring it back.

[markw]

A goodly portion of whites didn't even come to this coutry until after slaver was abolished. For instance, my Alsatian ancestors didn't hit the shores until 1880. So why sould I be held rsponsible? I mean, it was wrong, sure, but we didn't have any hand in it. Same goes for the Italians who arrived starting at about the same time. The Irish started in about 1840 and then were mainly in Boston.

Here's a map (http://www.pbs.org/destinationamerica/usim_wn_noflash.html) of the european imigration from 1850 - 1860. I doubt too many had the wherewithall to own slaves during that time period.

Most of our ancestors were still overseas until after slavery was abolished over 150 years ago. So, how the hades do you think we are responsible for your problems?

It's really about time y'all get over it and move on. I mean, it's like me still blaming my parents for any problems I still have at 60. At some point we all have to stop blaming others for our problems and take responsibility for own destiny.

Heck, if anyone has a beef it would be the Chineese who were essentially slaves when the railroads were being built. Here's a link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Chinese_Americans) that prety much lays out the whole story. Do you hear them whining? No. They moved on and now, 150 years later, their kids are "whupping azz" in schools and getting all the good tech jobs.

[markw]

Well, to lighten the tone a bit...

[JohnMichael]

Well, to lighten the tone a bit...

Manufactured scandals that amount to nothing. Check how many embassies were attacked during The Bush years. Bush started the wire tapping but no one of the GOP complained. You are wrong about so many things and stop getting your news from FOX.

Oh and one more thing this thread is about the Zimmerman case only.

[markw]

Well, I did mention Zimmerman, and several of us did bring up this same subject previously. This was just a more graphic representation.

And besides, this thread has already morphed into several directions, even with some of your posts as well. Where does Westboro fit in here?

Anyhow, Nixon was forced to leave office for Watergate, one incident. Even our current president was ready to run The Reviled W out on a rail when he was a senator (for all of three years) and now, he's even worse than W.

The current adminisration is juggling so many scandals that it's almost funny, but actually tragic, how many people don't give a hoot, or aren't even aware, thanks to the MSM (main streak media)

Double Standard? Nah! Hey, the guy's teflon, thanks to his color, the MSM, and bread and circuses.

[JohnMichael]

If you do not understand why Nixon had to leave office there is no longer any reason to discuss anything with you. You just do not get it.

[markw]

If you do not understand why Nixon had to leave office there is no longer any reason to discuss anything with you. You just do not get it.I'm sure ou can do better tan that, JM.

But, he DID end the Viet-Nam war which he inherited from his predecessor. As for Iraq and Afghanistan, well, we're still waiting for that promise to be fufilled.

[Smokey]

I have to deal with my own sadness over recent events and reading what he thinks is not helping with my healing.

Is everything alright?


Prejudice is alive and well in this country and I miss France.

I am sure France got their own baggage to deal with :)

I have traveled half way around the world and what you find out when traveling is that poeple are the same all over the world. Like when Richard Pryor said after visiting Africa:"And you realize that people are the same all over the world. Because people in Africa screw over your luggage just like people in New York.”

[Hyfi]

Hyfi...

Actually I think its ignorant for any one to use that word. the younger blacks using that word is stupid and don't seem to understand the pain of slavery....most of them can't understand because of not being educated enough to undertand the history. Now dont get me wrong, there are tons and tons of respectable blacks and young blacks in the hood who are getting educated....the so called media wont write about that, and other people wont most of America to think all blacks are dumb and uneducated, but thats far from the truth.

The reason why Blacks can call each other that is because it does not mean the same coming from a black. Its like one black either cussing another black or one black using it as a term of endearment. coming from a white person to a black is like like the worse thing you can say...it brings back the pain of slavery and all that blacks have lost. And a white man can never ever use that word as a term of endearment.....so its a no no to most blacks coming from a white person. Actually I know some white people who genuinely feel bad about slavery...and I also klnow some who want to bring it back.

I guess the real problem here is that ONLY blacks think of or are reminded of something that happened a long time ago. As a white person, I have NEVER thought of slavery until you brought it up. Sounds like being stuck in the past and taking it out on the present. Whenever I have used it, and of course I have like just about everyone else, it was in the context you claim is OK for black on black usage. Never was it intended or considered or even thought of to mean that I support or condone slavery.

Mark elaborated quite nicely in his reply about the Chinese slaves and such.

It's time to let go of the past and move forward into the future.

[Hyfi]

Then you and I should shut down the KKK and white supremacist groups. If we do not that is the same as us supporting them?

By now you know how silly this reply was. Like Mark pointed out, white people do not take those groups seriously and they have far less effect on anything unlike the Panthers. If you think they do, you have not been here long enough.

[JohnMichael]

By now you know how silly this reply was. Like Mark pointed out, white people do not take those groups seriously and they have far less effect on anything unlike the Panthers. If you think they do, you have not been here long enough.

Not silly just not understood by the silly. The members of the groups sure take themselves seriously. To say that white people do not take the KKK seriously but black people take the Panthers seriously is silly.

[markw]

Not silly just not understood by the silly. The members of the groups sure take themselves seriously. To say that white people do not take the KKK seriously but black people take the Panthers seriously is silly.When was the last time you've seen those crackpot white supremast groups make public announcments and get any media coverage? When have you seen them hold rallies that garnered any media coverage, much less were attended by anyone except themselves?

I guess you didn't see my link where the Panthers offered a ransom for the kidnappig of Zimmerman.

And, IIRC, there was somehing about these guys intimidating people at the 2008 presidantial elections where charges were filled against them but, strangely enough, were dropped when Obama took office. Linky here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Black_Panther_Party_voter_intimidation_case) Now, which crackpot white supremecist group has that sort of affect on anything?

To his credit, the black newscaster covering it couldn't believe it either and called them on it.

But, it still got airplay.

So, I guess only the silly can't see how ridiculous and desperate your original statement was.

[JohnMichael]

Depends on what part of the country you are from and the prevalence of the Klan. They have had rallies in my town. Recently they had recruitment rallies. The Westboro Baptist churc from my earlier example is always getting media attention. Regardless people of color are not going to hunt down Zimmerman just because the Panthers made that statement he should be kidnapped. Anymore than we would be talked into lynching someone because a white hate group suggested it.



When was the last time you've seen those crackpot white supremast groups make public announcments and get any media coverage? When have you seen them hold rallies that garnered any media coverage, much less were attended by anyone except themselves?

I guess you didn't see my link where the Panthers offered a ransom for the kidnappig of Zimmerman.

To his credit, the black newscaster covering it couldn't believe it either and called them on it.

But, it still got airplay.

[markw]

Depends on what part of the country you are from and the prevalence of the Klan. They have had rallies in my town. Recently they had recruitment rallies.Really? I did't see advance notice it on TV. Was it covered live on TV?? How many people showed up? Did anybody?

On a more serious note, if the potentially hostile reaction to the Zimmerman verdict from te black community doesn't calm down, it could very well lead to an increase in their membership, and gun sales.


The Westboro Baptist churc from my earlier example is always getting media attention.And, what happens when they do? Do people rally to cheer them on in support or join their cause? No, people show up to protest them.

You really didn't see that coming, did you?


Regardless people of color are not going to hunt down Zimmerman just because the Panthers made that statement he should be kidnapped.All it takes is one demented, hateful, dipshiite that wants the money. Frankly, I doubt the panthers would make good on their promise to pay, but if someone carries it out, well, the damage is done. IMNSHO, That anyone made this video and aired it in the first place should be an indictible offense.


Anymore than we would be talked into lynching someone because a white hate group suggested it.So, since you admit that nobody takes them seriously what's your concern with the white crackpot groups? They are a bunch ohf hateful social misfits who spew their venom among themelves.

Blacks have held protests all over the country since the verdict. To everyones credit, virtually all were peaceful, but some got new plasmas for free in LA. Social media is rife with calls to kill Zimmerman. This simply attests to their power guided by the MSM. Now, what white crackpot group has that leverage?

Are we done yet, John? You're becoming tedious and that chip on your shoulder must be getting pretty heavy by now..

[JohnMichael]

Mark I am just responding to your tedium. You spew but have never listened to anyone who has not completely agreed with you. I have just been playing your little game.


Really? I did't see advance notice it on TV. Was it covered live on TV?? How many people showed up? Did anybody?

And, what happens when they do? Do people rally to cheer them on in support or join their cause? No, people show up to protest them.

You really didn't see that coming, did you?

All it takes is one demented, hateful, dipshiite that wants the money. Frankly, I doubt the panthers would make good on their promise to pay, but if someone carries it out, well, the damage is done. IMNSHO, That anyone made this video and aired it in the first place should be an indictible offense.

So, since you admit that nobody takes them seriously what's your concern with the white crackpot groups? They are a bunch ohf hateful social misfits who spew their venom among themelves.

Blacks have held protests all over the country since the verdict. To everyones credit, virtually all were peaceful, but some got new plasmas for free in LA. Social media is rife with calls to kill Zimmerman. This simply attests to their power guided by the MSM. Now, what white crackpot group has that leverage?

Are we done yet, John? You're becoming tedious and that chip on your shoulder must be getting pretty heavy by now..

[Hyfi]

I do remember one thing.
It took hours and hours but.
by the time I was done with it,
I was so involved, I didn't know what to think.
I carried it around with me for days and days.
playing little games
like not looking at it for a whole day
and then. looking at it.
to see if I still liked it.
I did.

I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat myself when under stress.
I repeat.
The more I look at it,
the more I like it.
I do think it's good.
The fact is.
no matter how closely I study it,
no matter how I take it apart,
no matter how I break it down,
It remains consistent.
I wish you were here to see it.

I like it.


KC - Indiscipline

[frenchmon]

Depends on what part of the country you are from and the prevalence of the Klan. They have had rallies in my town. Recently they had recruitment rallies. The Westboro Baptist churc from my earlier example is always getting media attention. Regardless people of color are not going to hunt down Zimmerman just because the Panthers made that statement he should be kidnapped. Anymore than we would be talked into lynching someone because a white hate group suggested it.

In 2005 when I lived in Durham North Carolina, there was a cross burning and the KKK to the credit. I moved to St.louis in 2008 and a year later there was a KKK rally in one of the small towns that made the news.




.

[JohnMichael]

In 2005 when I lived in Durham North Carolina, there was a cross burning and the KKK to the credit. I moved to St.louis in 2008 and a year later there was a KKK rally in one of the small towns that made the news.




.


It is interesting to visit the Southern Poverty Law Center and read the list of hate groups. Another concern are the militia/survivalist groups that are plotting the overthrow of the government. Hate groups and the lunatic fringe are alive and well.

The last time the KKK were in town and my mother was still alive she had a fit that I wanted to counter protest. That and she wanted her pink sheets back.

[markw]

By it's own definition, the Southern Poverty Law Center is a hate group itself. Linky here (http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/fischer/130409)

I'll be moving on now. After all, you two started this thread to cackle amongst yourselves and glad-hand each other when you thought they were going to crucify Zimmerman. Too bad for you, but it didn't turn out that way.

I'll leave you alone now. Y'all can go lick your wounds in peace.

Buh-bye.

[frenchmon]

I guess the real problem here is that ONLY blacks think of or are reminded of something that happened a long time ago.

Why do you say that....kindly explain.


As a white person, I have NEVER thought of slavery until you brought it up.

Good for you! and your point?


Sounds like being stuck in the past and taking it out on the present.

I'm sure some do. But you have never had the horrible history that blacks have had. Why are you inplying that blacks should forget it? You have no right! Just like some of the Jews...they will never forget, and neither should blacks.


Whenever I have used it, and of course I have like just about everyone else, it was in the context you claim is OK for black on black usage.

Oh a term of endearment? Still that's very disrespectful in my book. Its disrespectful for blacks to even use that word with each other....its so ignorant!


Never was it intended or considered or even thought of to mean that I support or condone slavery.

The term "n" is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War. The senses labeled Extremely Disparaging and Offensive represent meanings that are deeply insulting and are used when the speaker deliberately wishes to cause great offense. It is so profoundly offensive that a euphemism has developed for those occasions when the word itself must be discussed, as in court or in a newspaper editorial: “the n-word.”
Despite this, the sense referring to a “black person” is sometimes used among African Americans in a neutral or familiar way. I would hope you neer use that word again!




It's time to let go of the past and move forward into the future.

Who are you to tell me to let go of what happened? How rude and condescending of you! You cant just forget it and let it go! Its history and it happend, and now you want to just wash it under the table as if it never happened. How ignorant of you!

I will never let it go! Does not mean I hold you responsible, but I am reminded of what some are capable of. I am also reminded by the talk about black and brown parents telling their sons how to act when confronted by cops as well, and being in my 50's, I did remember my dad giving me instructions as a boy on how to respond to cops if they should ever confront me. Some things have not changed. I have been profiled by cops many times...especially where I live and the car I drive. so yeah my parents gave me warnings as a boy...You know why? Because they lived through all the yuk as a boy and their dad told him how to act as well...and his dad as well and so on. I will never forget it Hyfi. As horrible as it was, I will never forget it. And for a black man today, its still hard and I would say the sense of privileged that a white man has, I have yet to see as a black man.

[Hyfi]

Why do you say that....kindly explain.



Good for you! and your point?



I'm sure some do. But you have never had the horrible history that blacks have had. Why are you inplying that blacks should forget it? You have no right! Just like some of the Jews...they will never forget, and neither should blacks.



Oh a term of endearment? Still that's very disrespectful in my book. Its disrespectful for blacks to even use that word with each other....its so ignorant!



The term "n" is now probably the most offensive word in English. Its degree of offensiveness has increased markedly in recent years, although it has been used in a derogatory manner since at least the Revolutionary War. The senses labeled Extremely Disparaging and Offensive represent meanings that are deeply insulting and are used when the speaker deliberately wishes to cause great offense. It is so profoundly offensive that a euphemism has developed for those occasions when the word itself must be discussed, as in court or in a newspaper editorial: “the n-word.”
Despite this, the sense referring to a “black person” is sometimes used among African Americans in a neutral or familiar way. I would hope you neer use that word again!





Who are you to tell me to let go of what happened? How rude and condescending of you! You cant just forget it and let it go! Its history and it happend, and now you want to just wash it under the table as if it never happened. How ignorant of you!

I will never let it go! Does not mean I hold you responsible, but I am reminded of what some are capable of. I am also reminded by the talk about black and brown parents telling their sons how to act when confronted by cops as well, and being in my 50's, I did remember my dad giving me instructions as a boy on how to respond to cops if they should ever confront me. Some things have not changed. I have been profiled by cops many times...especially where I live and the car I drive. so yeah my parents gave me warnings as a boy...You know why? Because they lived through all the yuk as a boy and their dad told him how to act as well...and his dad as well and so on. I will never forget it Hyfi. As horrible as it was, I will never forget it. And for a black man today, its still hard and I would say the sense of privileged that a white man has, I have yet to see as a black man.

Frenchmon, I am not going to take the time to debate you point by point. My main point in that reply was that to me the N word NEVER meant anything more than black, no different than coon and whatever others we want to dig up. No different than Puerto Ricans being called a Spic, no different than all the slang names created for any race and or ethnic group. I don't know personally anyone who has used the N word in conjunction with Slavery. I would never have thought of it until YOU brought it up.

And yes, I have heard of The Talk, listened to a whole NPR show about it. Guess what, Whitey has to act the same way when we get pulled over by the cops. It is just plain common sense and respect for a police officer. Mouth off and you have a problem.

You don't have to forget it, and I am not telling you to, but I am suggesting that you define yourself by your present and what you do with your future. Don't define yourself by history, the past, and things people you interact with today had nothing to do with. Every ethnic group or race has had its bad days.

When RAP songs no longer use the word, and movies no longer use the word, and when blacks themselves no longer use the word, Then just maybe the word might stop being used. It's in so many black artists songs, it's in so many movies as to be comical in Django Unchained. Jamie Fox was OK with it, he gots millions. Why didn't every black actor in that movie protest and say No? If I see that I will agree a little more with your stance.

I know you can't get everyone of your race to do the right thing, just like I can't so we will just have to remain at a stalemate and define our lives by what "happened" not what is and could be.

OK, since this has swayed so far from the original intent of the thread, I'm done also. TM was a thug and GZ was an ass and the system sucks.

[JohnMichael]

The N word is offensive due to it's use through the years. People who say it with hate in their heart do not think it just means black. It is a word that demeans a certain group. It is a name used during slavery, a name used during lynchings and a name uses during beatings and killings during the struggles for civil rights. I do not think they meant black.

I have no problems if blacks want to own the word and use it how they want. I am much the same way with the word f@ggot. If another gay person calls me a f@g it is not hurtful. A group of classmates chasing me down a hall shouting it was hurtful as was the beatings when they caught me. How hurtful it was to be called f@g when I was working my job bagging groceries. Leaving the local gay bar and rushing to your car being shouted at and chased until I could loose them. When you grow up with a word being used against you for many years you hate the word.

Like many painful life experiences hearing the word used against me again takes me back to the feelings of the dark days. Of course if you have never been in a minority group that faced hate and prejudice you are not able to understand the emotions.

[JohnMichael]

I'll be moving on now.
I'll leave you alone now.
Buh-bye.

Thank you

Zimmerman took Trayvon's life and ruined his in the process.

[markw]

Zimmerman took Trayvon's lifeIn self defense


...and ruined his in the process.Such is the pity.

You're welcome

[JohnMichael]

In self defense

Such is the pity.

You're welcome


Living in prisons of our own creation

He still has other trials ahead.

[Hyfi]

The Martins are already worried about going forward with a civil case because A- they are broke and B- if they lose, they will have to pay GZ
The Feds will most likely drop their case because it is baseless.

What other ones are you thinking of?

[JohnMichael]

The Martins are already worried about going forward with a civil case because A- they are broke and B- if they lose, they will have to pay GZ
The Feds will most likely drop their case because it is baseless.

What other ones are you thinking of?


Oh you have spoken with the Martins recently? As Zimmerman received donations for his defense many will contribute to the Martins. There are also a lot of petitions being circulated asking the "Feds" to get involved.

[frenchmon]

Frenchmon, I am not going to take the time to debate you point by point. My main point in that reply was that to me the N word NEVER meant anything more than black,

How selfish of you if that's true. But I don't believe a grown man never associated that word as a horrible term aimed at blacks during slavery and there after. And I know you dont care what I believe so save it.


And yes, I have heard of The Talk, listened to a whole NPR show about it. Guess what, Whitey has to act the same way when we get pulled over by the cops. It is just plain common sense and respect for a police officer. Mouth off and you have a problem.

Well I know...you tell that to the countless blacks who kept their mouth shut and still got beat up in the peaceful civil rights rallies of the 50 and 60's. You tell that to the countless blacks in slavery who did nothing wrong but had their families ripped apart. You tell that to those who where lynched whos only crime was having dark skin. You want me to forget? No way....if it was not for the strength of those blacks during slavery, and those after slavery who stood up for what was right, those who paved the way for me to have a decent life today, I would not be able to enjoy what I do now....especially to enjoy the hobby you and I both enjoy and thats audio....you and I are connected through audio Hyfi. If not the road paved for me...we couldnt do that because I would not have had the chance to get an education and make money to buy...but now I do.:thumbsup: (And btw.....I just got a spanking brand new VIncent sp-331mk anp)


You don't have to forget it, and I am not telling you to, I will never forget those who paved the way for me, and no one cant tell me what to do....saidly, you never suggested I forgot, but you TOLD me to forget.



but I am suggesting that you define yourself by your present and what you do with your future. Don't define yourself by history, the past, and things people you interact with today had nothing to do with. Every ethnic group or race has had its bad days.

Hahahahaha! sorry Hyfi, I know you have good intentions here, but you just don't get it! You act as if I am saying I am a slave. Thats not what I am saying. I identify with those of long ago, because they where the fore runners....they made a way for me. They paved the way for me to live the life I live now. they fought for me Hyfi. they where a strong people who endured,,. Even people like Jefferson....Abraham Lincoln, Martin Luther King....they all fought for the rights of people to have the life we have today. I know some who fought had slaves, But for me, I identify more with those who where held against their will. I can never forget my great, great, great, great grand parents where slaves in this country and helped pave the way for me. Never.


When RAP songs no longer use the word, and movies no longer use the word, and when blacks themselves no longer use the word, Then just maybe the word might stop being used. It's in so many black artists songs, it's in so many movies as to be comical in Django Unchained. Jamie Fox was OK with it, he gots millions. Why didn't every black actor in that movie protest and say No? If I see that I will agree a little more with your stance.

You cant agree more with me because stupid people keep using it? wow! Well its sad to say, ignorant people will always be with us. So the word will never go away. But just because others are stupid and selfish dont mean we all are....and I dont know what world you live in, but there was many who spoke out about that word. Cosby as well as Spike Lee who was very vocal about its over use.



I know you can't get everyone of your race to do the right thing, just like I can't so we will just have to remain at a stalemate and define our lives by what "happened" not what is and could be.

OK, since this has swayed so far from the original intent of the thread, I'm done also. TM was a thug and GZ was an ass and the system sucks.

Oh so you too think Martin was a thug? Why do you say that? Because the dictionary says Zimmerman is the real thug.



thug [thuhg] Show IPA
noun
1.
a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter ) one of a former group of professional robbers and murderers in India who strangled their victims.


There is no proof Martin was crul or vicious a robber or murderer.....But we know Zimmerman was a big lier and a MURDERER who shot a kid who was 17 years old and unarmed.

So Zimmerman is the real THUG....he is the person who is forever going to live the THUG life. and the majority of the people in the USA also feel that Zimmerman is the real thug who got a way with murder.

But for some reason you want to call the unarmed guy who was minding his own business on his way home, who had no witness that he threw the first punch, who had no witness that he started the fight, but you would rather believe the testimony of a man who had a gun and was on the hunt, who had close to 70 911 calls of only blacks in the hood and not one white, a guy who was caught in at least 10 lies about his story that night, a guy who was armed and hunted down black guys and got a way with murder, but the unarmed guy is the thug....Hyfi, you got some twisted thinking because those are facts.

[frenchmon]

The Martins are already worried about going forward with a civil case because A- they are broke and B- if they lose, they will have to pay GZ
The Feds will most likely drop their case because it is baseless.

What other ones are you thinking of?

Where did you get that from? thats not what she said last night.

And besides.....the bill is already paid. If She does go for it, others with wealth have offered to pay the bill. Have you not also heard Tom Joyner has already put up the money for the girl who was on the phone with Martin up till Zimmerman confronted Martin, to finish high school and he is paying for tutors all the way through college? Oh don't think Martins parents are broke, because right now she has more money than you or I for this case if she decides to go for it, but from what I gathered last night, she is waiting for the Feds to get done with their investigation. And the Feds are turning over every stone to see if Martins civil right where violated....I don't know if is a closed case as of yet. All the talking heads are saying there is nothing there, but I will have hope they find something.

[Feanor]

Living in prisons of our own creation

He still has other trials ahead.
The beauty of a civil trial for, say, Wrongful Death, is that the case doesn't have to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", only on the balance of probabilities. (Ask O.J. Simpson about this.) Presumably the Martin's don't have to worry about paying because they can probably find a lawyer who will take the case on a conditional fee basis, i.e. a percentage of the actual award -- so it's Zimmerman's ability to pay more than the Martins' which is relevant.

[JohnMichael]

Is everything alright?



I am sure France got their own baggage to deal with :)

I have traveled half way around the world and what you find out when traveling is that poeple are the same all over the world. Like when Richard Pryor said after visiting Africa:"And you realize that people are the same all over the world. Because people in Africa screw over your luggage just like people in New York.”



Smokey thanks for asking. This should be a happy time for me as we approach marriage equality. On the other hand women are losing their rights to choose what is best for themselves. Planned Parenthood is being defunded when many poor and uninsured women need them for cancer diagnosis and treatment, birth control and yearly testing. Money is being taken from food stamp programs and given as subsidies. We have a House that is more concerned about making our President look bad than getting any work done. We have so much gun violence but gun sales are at an all time high so no one who receives funding from the gun lobby wants to do anything.

We call ourselves a Christian nation but we do not want to feed the poor. We do not want universal health care. We do not want our mothers, sisters and daughters to receive the care they need. We have the death penalty and have laws that allow people to claim fear for an excuse to kill one of God's creations a 17 year old black boy.

Pat Robertson wants a vomit button if he sees two men kissing but I think he would "like" an image of two men fighting to the death. Why is violence more accepted than affection? As we progress towards marriage equality in my area there has been a rise in hate crimes. Why do they think they can beat us straight.

Bullying is still a problem and all the young people who think things will not get better end their lives. Sweet wonderful children who have done nothing but be different and are taunted and abused until they think so little of themselves.

In this thread when I read people who deny another's pain when they explain their reaction to a word. Oh no it only means this but if it has been used against you it has a different meaning and feeling. So few people are willing to walk in another man's shoes. Some pick sides by who is closest in skin color.

Then we have the punishing of the poor and the voting rights issues. We are the first country to complain if another does not have a democratic election but we change voting hours, send out misinformation about polling places or just make it physically impossible to get there as they did in Alaska.

Smokey there is much to be sad about and much of which we should be ashamed.

[Smokey]

Smokey there is much to be sad about and much of which we should be ashamed.

You can't solve all the world's problems. There is always going to be negetivity no matter if it was 100 years ago or 100 years in the future. Its human's self interest (whether its coming from religion, politics, race, country, money or power) that causing all the world problems. Its always "Me First".

But at same time you also have to think positive and count the blessing for what you have (most important being your health).

When you think of all problems poeple around world have to deal such as war and killing, hunger, no home, oppression, violence and terror, then you don't think of some of social issues as such an overwhelming problems :)

[markw]

Maybe somebody would be happier in France where everythig is so peachy keen.

[JohnMichael]

Maybe somebody would be happier in France where everythig is so peachy keen.


You are a mean spirited a$$hole. I thought you were going away. Need some help?

[markw]

You are a mean spirited a$$hole. I thought you were going away. Need some help?I could't resist.

I've never seen anyone with so many complaints about their life or their country. How do you even manage to get out of bed every day.

If you're really, really that discontent with this country then do yourself, and the rest of us here, a favor and go someplace else were you'll be happier.

Either that, or get psychological help before you do yourself, or anyone else, physical harm. You've got serious anger issues and use this forum as your vent.