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PaBowHunter340
02-13-2013, 03:34 PM
I need some advice and expert opinons. I'll run through the brief history of events.
I recently purchased a Yamaha RX-V673 for my home theatre system, but once I connected the unit and began to adjust it, I found out that when I turned the volume to around +8, the unit would turn itself off if there was any sharp sound effect such as gun shots. Or if I was playing music at that volume, it would eventually blow out and turn itself off. There wasn't any damage and the unit would turn right back on, but it would continously happen. Granted, it would not happen if the volume remained around 0. The range of the volume went from -45 to +16.
Now I don't have a $10,000 system. I have Infinity Primus 360 speakers. I tried using banana clips to ensure the speaker wires weren't touching. No change.
So eventually I returned the unit to an online company who tested it and said everything is fine with the unit. And that he had tested it all the way up to 70% of the max volume. I responded that he needed to turn the volume to about +8 and watch the beach landing scene from Saving Private Ryan and that the unit would cut off within the first minute. He immediately responded by telling me that the unit is NEVER supposed to be operated above 0 volume. And that the distortion is what is causing the unit to turn itself off. Sound like a load of BS to you? Because when I turned the unit to +10 while it was working listening to satellite music it was crystal clear. Absolutely no distortion.
Prior to this unit I had a Harmon Kardon AVR325 which I could turn the volume to the max and it would function flawlessly and was clear. And it was louder than the Yamaha.
So my questions in addition to anything I've asked above are the following:
1. Is this guy lying through his teeth? I cannot turn the volume above 0?
2. Are my expectations to high? Should you never operate a unit at max volume?
3. What are some comparable models for the RX-V673?
4. Also, is there a problem with operating a 7.2 capable receiver in 5.1 configuration (two front towers, two rear surrounds, center channel and sub)?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

Mr Peabody
02-13-2013, 04:38 PM
Definitely no receiver or amp is made to run at full volume. If the amp distorted (clipped) the protection would kick in. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary about Primus, the model I checked showed 8 ohms and 88 dB which is safe, shouldn't require high current. What you may want to do is get a receiver with preamp outputs and add an external power amp to drive the main speakers, this not only gives more quality power to the mains but lightens the receiver's load on the power supply.


I need some advice and expert opinons. I'll run through the brief history of events.
I recently purchased a Yamaha RX-V673 for my home theatre system, but once I connected the unit and began to adjust it, I found out that when I turned the volume to around +8, the unit would turn itself off if there was any sharp sound effect such as gun shots. Or if I was playing music at that volume, it would eventually blow out and turn itself off. There wasn't any damage and the unit would turn right back on, but it would continously happen. Granted, it would not happen if the volume remained around 0. The range of the volume went from -45 to +16.
Now I don't have a $10,000 system. I have Infinity Primus 360 speakers. I tried using banana clips to ensure the speaker wires weren't touching. No change.
So eventually I returned the unit to an online company who tested it and said everything is fine with the unit. And that he had tested it all the way up to 70% of the max volume. I responded that he needed to turn the volume to about +8 and watch the beach landing scene from Saving Private Ryan and that the unit would cut off within the first minute. He immediately responded by telling me that the unit is NEVER supposed to be operated above 0 volume. And that the distortion is what is causing the unit to turn itself off. Sound like a load of BS to you? Because when I turned the unit to +10 while it was working listening to satellite music it was crystal clear. Absolutely no distortion.
Prior to this unit I had a Harmon Kardon AVR325 which I could turn the volume to the max and it would function flawlessly and was clear. And it was louder than the Yamaha.
So my questions in addition to anything I've asked above are the following:
1. Is this guy lying through his teeth? I cannot turn the volume above 0?
2. Are my expectations to high? Should you never operate a unit at max volume?
3. What are some comparable models for the RX-V673?
4. Also, is there a problem with operating a 7.2 capable receiver in 5.1 configuration (two front towers, two rear surrounds, center channel and sub)?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

markw
02-14-2013, 05:25 AM
+8 db? How loud do you listen?

The difference between music and movies is that music is compressed, with almost no peaks in loudness, while movies depends on those wide dynamic swings in order to sell the action scenes. Thst would explain wy it doesn't happen on music, only movies.

Final analysis: You're asking to much from that, or any, unit. The tech was on the right track.

PaBowHunter340
02-14-2013, 02:42 PM
Well, while I admit that I am fairly ignorant on this issue, I did have a Harmon Kardon AVR325 hooked up to the exact same set up (except the sub) and never had any issues with distortion or cutting out. And I don't normally listen at +8 db. I was simply stretching the legs of my new receiver to hear the limits of it's ability. I suppose you are all correct though. The unit is on the way back. When it arrives I will switch back and forth from the old HK and the new Yamaha and compare the clarity and volume. I still think there may be an issue with the unit. But thank you for your assistance.

Mr Peabody
02-14-2013, 05:20 PM
I am not familiar with what HK is doing now for HT receivers but their stereo receivers used to be high current and wide frequency range, Yamaha has a decent sound but their amp sections are not what I'd consider strong, seems they stretch the specs where HK is very conservative. I remember selling HK rated at 35 or 45 watts, costed twice as much as some of the competition at 100 watts, people would sort of bauk until they heard the HK shame the competition.

StevenSurprenant
02-15-2013, 04:20 AM
This isn't news to most people, but many times the power ratings on surround receivers is rated for one channel driven. The power supply can't handle the rated power when all channels are driven. This is reminiscent of the time (in the 70's) when they would rate amps in terms of instantaneous peak power. A 30 watt amp might be rated at 500 watts because it could produce that output for 1 microsecond (both channels added) before depleting it's power capacitors.

Once I was reviewing a 30 watt Pass Labs amp (class A) so I put it on one channel and a Carver 60 Watt/RMS amp on the other. The Carver was peaking out, but the Pass Labs was still clear as a bell (at the same volumes).

Realistically, it doesn't matter how loud an amp will play, only that it will play as loud as you need it to play. This means that if your amp will make your speakers put out 110db it doesn't matter if you only listen at 90db.

In my system, I only have a 6 Watt amp with 91db speakers. In surround mode, I set my mains to small and send the bass to the sub. It plays as loud as I can stand it and the bass vibrates the entire house. I'm guessing here, but without the bass going through my mains, I can achieve over 100db with those 6 Watts. When playing music, I doubt that I normally ever use more than a watt or two and that is without a sub.

I suppose that I should tell you that many years ago I was doing what you are doing. I had a 80 Watt amp and speakers rated at 350 Watts RMS for each side. I ended up clipping the bass which sent harmonics through the next smaller speaker up in the chain and blew it out. I learned my lesson the hard way.

The whole point is, don't concern yourself with how loud your amp will drive your speakers, only that it drives them loud enough for what you need and it sounds good doing so.

Mr. Peabody gave you good advice if this remains a problem for you. Lighten the load on your Yamaha's power supply.

PaBowHunter340
02-18-2013, 06:24 AM
Steven,
I admit that I don't have much experience with high end audio systems. I've had two or three systems in my lifetime. All have been in standard 5.1 home theater systems and never cost more than $2000 for all the components. So these were fairly basic plug and play devices. And the unit I'm having problems with is about the same. Again, I don't know how much that comes into play.
But, after sending the Yamaha back to the retailer, I hooked up my old 2003 Harmon Kardon AVR325 which boasts 50 watts per channel. The HK is simply blowing the brand new Yamaha RX-v673 away. The volume is much higher and there is no distortion at all even at max volume. Now I do understand that I won't be watching any movies at that volume, or rarely listen to music at that volume, but the fact remains that the unit DOES operate at full volume which is louder than the 95 watts per channel Yamaha unit. This leads me to conclude that there MUST be a problem with the Yamaha. While I concede that the Yamaha (or any other receiver) may not be designed to operate at full volume for any extended time, the 95 watt per channel Yamaha certainly should be able to at least equal the power and volume of the 10 year old 50 watt per channel Harmon Kardon. The retailer is simply lying to deny me the right to return the unit. Unfortunately I purchased the unit from the "interweb" (Clint's name for the www) and returning it has been a nightmare. So I will foot the bill for repair of the unit. I'll get on the phone with YAmaha before returning it to see if they have a solution, but I simply do not see a reason that a 10 year old half powered receiver should be providing better sound and more power than a brand new technologically advanced unit with twice the rated power. And if that is the case, then I am screwed because the next step in receivers is in the $1000+ group and I really didn't want to spend that kind of money to drive speakers that in total cost about $800. I am a rookie at this and I'm sure I have much to learn, but this receiver cannot be operating normally.

Hyfi
02-18-2013, 07:05 AM
The HK amps are way better than most other mass market HT Receivers. When I switched from an HK AV635 to the Integra 30.3 I felt a loss.

That said, if a unit should not be played above a certain volume, the unit should not allow a user to turn it up past that spot. Sounds like a design flaw along with asking too much from the unit.

Mr Peabody
02-18-2013, 07:38 AM
You, are, screwed. You learned a valuable lesson the hard way, not all watts are the same. Just because the Yamaha claims 95 watts doesn't mean it will be more powerful sounding than the HK, as you have found. Putting the Yamaha in the shop is wasting more money, there's nothing wrong with it, they just stretched the specs where HK seems to be the same as always, very conservative on the ratings and high current output stage. I would try seeing if the retailer might exchange for a different brand or move up the line. Another better option would be if the Yamaha has ppreamp outputs to look for an external amp to add to it, if buying used you can keep the price down. Another idea, did you run the Yamaha auto speaker set up, you could get more power output by running the internal volume up some, the internal setting will show a (-) number, 0, then (+) numbers, taking that setting into the plus side, but not too far, will give you more output. If no preamp outputs maybe see if you can trade up to a model that does. Depending on the model you can pick up a used Adcom amp, which are hardy, like the HK, for $400.00 or less, $400.00 if you get a 200 watt model, closer to $200 if you get a 125 watt model.

I hope this doesn't sound too blunt but you need to know the truth before wasting money on tech bills. I do empathize with you. Once you realize where you are at you can try to make the best of it for the least amount of money.

markw
02-18-2013, 08:46 AM
Not all manufacturers rate their power the same. IT's a marketig ploy to make tem seem more powerful than they are to wow the average consumer.

Here's an example at how it can be done, using approximate figures.

Let's take 100 watts X 5

This means that each chanel can put out 100 watts, most likely not all at the same time.

If only one channel is driven, it can put out 100 watts. If two channels are driven, they both might put out 80 watts. The more channels driven at any one time, the power ratings go down.

But wait, there's more.

Tey might rate them at au unrealistic figure, say at 1khz at a certan distortion level. Let's say that's how they arrived at that 100 watt figure above.

So, we've got one channel, at 100 watts per channel at 1khzs and .1% distortion.

Nobody listens to a 1khz tone. Real world speca would be something like 20 -20khz. That would result in a lower power rating, say 85 - 90 watts.

Now, if we go for a lower distortion level, that would lower the power ratings even more.

So, you've got to learn to read those watt specs with a bit of a jaundiced eye. You could esilly wind up with maybe 50 - 60 "real world" watts per channel.

And, keep in mind that, unlike 10 years ago, nowadays you're paying more for features and gee gaws than power. Note that as you go up the food chain of a manufacturer, power ratings don't go up in quantum leaps, but the features do.

StevenSurprenant
02-18-2013, 08:51 AM
Steven,...But, after sending the Yamaha back to the retailer, I hooked up my old 2003 Harmon Kardon AVR325 which boasts 50 watts per channel. The HK is simply blowing the brand new Yamaha RX-v673 away...This leads me to conclude that there MUST be a problem with the Yamaha. While I concede that the Yamaha (or any other receiver) may not be designed to operate at full volume for any extended time, the 95 watt per channel Yamaha certainly should be able to at least equal the power and volume of the 10 year old 50 watt per channel Harmon Kardon.

You have the equipment right in front of you and so you should know better than I what is and what isn't. Generally better power supplies mean better sound. I suspect that the HK has a better power supply.

Of course, you may be entirely correct in your assertion that the something is amiss with the Yamaha.

In the past, HK amps have always had the reputation of being very good and above average amps. I think that reputation was earned because of their power supplies and that's why they called them high current. I too have a Yamaha receiver and sound quality wise, it's decent for surround sound where I am much less critical than my 2 channel system, but compared to my Trends TA10 digital amp, it sounds very dull.

Let us know what you find out...

Oh, strictly speaking, double the power is only a 3db increase in loudness which is only slightly louder.

Mr Peabody
02-18-2013, 09:33 AM
I got a chance to look at the 673, it has a lot of features, unfortunately, no preamp outputs. Here's what it says about power, 90 watts per channel into 8 ohms (20-20,000 Hz) at 0.09% THD, with 2 channels driven, with that being said it only weighs 22 lbs so the power supply can't be too healthy. Too bad the retailer you selected wasn't one of those who offer the 30 or 60 days return with no questions, most do, who did you buy from?

Mr Peabody
02-18-2013, 09:39 AM
One other thing, when I was doing a search for the receiver I saw other forums who had a dedicated thread for the 673 and you might also check reviews at Amazon or Crutchfield to see how people felt about the power or compared it to any other receivers.

Hyfi
02-18-2013, 09:46 AM
The HK I replaced with the Integra weighed about 3X as much. That should tell ya something right off the bat. I had to get a new unit because the HK died on me and I got gunshy to purchase another one so I went with the Integra.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-18-2013, 06:36 PM
I am curious about two things here. To the OP, and you putting your receiver into the standby mode when not watching it? Second thing, are you running your towers as full range?

If you are putting your receiver into the standby mode when not watching movies or listening to music, I would suggest you turn the receiver all the way off. If you are running your towers full range, and listening to a movie like Saving Private Ryan beach scene at high levels, then expect your receiver to shut down during the loud passages - as this scene is challenging for any system when played back at high levels. If you are going to play this movie at high volume, I would suggest putting the towers and all of the other speakers on small as well, it will reduce the load on the main channels, and can prevent the receiver from shutting itself off. Does this receiver run hot before shutting itself off?

PaBowHunter340
02-18-2013, 08:48 PM
Mr. Terrible,

The receiver is probably in standby mode when not in use. And if "full range" is the same as "large", then yes.

The receiver will shut itself off even if I turn it on and immediately crank up the power. Heat so far hasn't been a problem.

I spoke to Yamaha tech support today and they told me that there does appear that there is a problem with the receiver. And the tech told me a simple solution to check and see if it's the receiver or the speakers. Disconnect all of the speakers and then place a movie into the PS3 which I use as a Blu Ray player and then crank it up to max volume. If the unit shuts itself off then there is a problem with the unit and not the rest of the system. So at least I see light at the end of the tunnel.

I purchased the receiver from a company called Gear4less.com. We will see if the company does the honorable thing and replaces the unit if I test the unit and it fails.

Mr. Terrible, while you are certainly more knowledgeable than I, and I'm not being condescending, I must disagree that this is challenging. My ten year old HK AVR 325 kicks ass during the beach scene of Saving Private Ryan. I can turn the volume up to max and it functions flawlessly. No distortion. I can turn music up loud enough so that you cannot hear the person next to you speak. Never cut out once. Granted this may not be the smartest thing to do, but when the Maker's is flowing, occasionally the volume knob becomes easier to turn. All joking aside, the Yamaha has much less power and volume. And not by design. I believe it is defective. If you were here and heard it I'm sure you would agree and probably would know the answer to my problem.

Nevertheless I will test it and send it back to Yamaha for repair. If it is too expensive then I'll be looking for suggestions on a new receiver. So far I'm leaning towards another Harmon Kardon or maybe digging deep for a Marantz. But suggestions would be appreciated. I'd like to stay under $1,200.00.

By the way fellas, I have a very basic system. I have 10 year old Infinity Primus 360 tower speakers. An Infinity C25 center channel. The rears are Infinity Primus 160's. Not very expensive gear, but it's served my purpose for a decade. I had a M&K 75 MKII, but the amp went. Trying to get it repaired. In the mean time I bought a Bic America PL-200 to hold down the fort. Let me know what you think of my bargain basement movie sound system.

StevenSurprenant
02-19-2013, 12:31 AM
By the way fellas, I have a very basic system. I have 10 year old Infinity Primus 360 tower speakers. An Infinity C25 center channel. The rears are Infinity Primus 160's. Not very expensive gear, but it's served my purpose for a decade. I had a M&K 75 MKII, but the amp went. Trying to get it repaired. In the mean time I bought a Bic America PL-200 to hold down the fort. Let me know what you think of my bargain basement movie sound system.

I've owned M&K, Paradigm, Yamaha, and HSU subs. The M&K was sealed and while it didn't play as loud as the Paradigm, it sounded much better. That was many years ago. I like my HSU the best at only about $500. They were all around $500 on sale. There are much better subs, but dollar for dollar the M&K and the HSU were the two best I've owned.

It's been a while since I've heard Inifinty speakers, but what I liked about them was that the bass was tight and dynamic. I was reading about your Infinity's on Stereophile and I see that the impedance drops below 4 ohms at certain points. That could explain why your Yamaha had problems driving them. I also noticed that they are 93db sensitive. You could drive these with a very small amp and still get them to play very loud. You should read their report, they really liked these in that price range.

Infinity Primus 360 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/infinity-primus-360-loudspeaker-measurements)

Anyway, it looks like a very nice system. All that really matters is what you think.

BTW, we all don't have megabuck systems. I know I don't. Nor do we all have the same tastes. I play music at about 75db peak and movies at about 90db peak. You seem to like it much louder. That seems to be what's important to you and there is nothing wrong with either way.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-19-2013, 09:31 AM
Mr. Terrible, while you are certainly more knowledgeable than I, and I'm not being condescending, I must disagree that this is challenging. My ten year old HK AVR 325 kicks ass during the beach scene of Saving Private Ryan. I can turn the volume up to max and it functions flawlessly. No distortion. I can turn music up loud enough so that you cannot hear the person next to you speak.

So you understand what I mean by challenging. For twenty minutes straight you have full power gunshots, deep loud bass in the main channels to 30hz, loud bass to 40hz in the surrounds, and bass to 17hz in the LFE. This is what I saw from the RTA's on each channel in my system while watching the movie last night. There were quite a few occasions where the power meters jumped to 100+ watts coming from the L/R mains, hence why I knew you were running your mains on large. Based on what I saw last night, you are running your system well past the what the power supply can deliver in this receiver, hence why it shuts down during peak volumes. I do not recommend any speaker being put to large when using receivers. The demands it places on the amps is far to high for most receivers to handle. Receivers are really designed to handle 80hz and above, and leave the heavy bass lifting to the subwoofer. When you combine a low impedance speaker(4 ohms) along with deep bass, then you have a problem with a receiver.

The beach scene is the only scene that has ever tripped a breaker on Widescreen Review's reference system, and it has almost the same amount of power as the system in my signature.

I used to have the same problem you did with an old Sony receiver I had many years ago. I used to put that receiver in the standby mode while not watching it, and as soon as a peak hit, it would shut down. Turning the receiver fully off cured the problem.

I may be wrong, but this sounds like a "over current" situation which is triggering the safety circuit so the amps won't melt down.

HK receivers have always been modestly spec when it comes to their power amps in their receivers. They are high current designs that probably could play well past their conservative power rating. However, there is a missing piece here you are overlooking. The 325 can only play the lossy tracks on Bluray, not the lossless tracks. The lossless tracks are a bit more dynamic(especially in the LFE) than the lossy tracks, and that may be why the 325 can hum right through them.

My last question is how do you hook up your PS3 to the HK? It does not have HDMI inputs, and the PS3 does not have 7.1 outputs. How could you test Saving Private Ryan with the HK in this case?

If you are going to compare the HK to the Yamaha, the comparison has to be 1 to 1, apples to apples. I cannot see how a fair comparison can be made of these two receivers.

BadAssJazz
02-19-2013, 04:25 PM
My last question is how do you hook up your PS3 to the HK? It does not have HDMI inputs, and the PS3 does not have 7.1 outputs. How could you test Saving Private Ryan with the HK in this case?

My guess would be that he/she used digital optical out from the PS3 to the HK AVR635. :shrug:

Mr Peabody
02-19-2013, 04:58 PM
Is it Sir T or Sherlock the Terrible? One good point, setting speakers to "small" opposed to "large", and, one good observation, BAJ, here's what T was getting at, HD audio formats cannot be passed via optical or coaxial connections at least the lossless DTS-MA or Dolby Tru HD. So the Yamaha is asked to handle a wider frequency range, NOW, that is assuming the OP was playing a Blu-ray disc opposed to DVD, if DVD, then, uh, nevermind :)

Interesting the tech said to turn the amp up full without a load, I was always under the impression that was a bad thing to do.

PaBowHunter340
02-19-2013, 06:13 PM
[QUOTE=Sir Terrence the Terrible

My last question is how do you hook up your PS3 to the HK? It does not have HDMI inputs, and the PS3 does not have 7.1 outputs. How could you test Saving Private Ryan with the HK in this case?

If you are going to compare the HK to the Yamaha, the comparison has to be 1 to 1, apples to apples. I cannot see how a fair comparison can be made of these two receivers.[/QUOTE]


I ran the HDMI cable from my DirectTV box and my PS3 straight to my TV. Then I ran a digital optical cable from the TV's digital optical out down to the HK AVR 325. So I suppose I wasn't comparing apples to apples because the system set up was different, but I just received the Yamaha back. Now I will remove the HK and replace with the Yamaha and will test it again with the exact same set up.

First I will try the Yamaha tech's suggestion of disconnecting all speakers and turning the unit all the way up with a movie playing in the PS3. If the problem still exists and the unit again cuts off, I will try your suggestions of setting my two front tower speakers to small. Then I will change my power cords around so that I can turn off the power completely when not in use.

Can you explain what you meant by this: "The 325 can only play the lossy tracks on Bluray, not the lossless tracks. The lossless tracks are a bit more dynamic(especially in the LFE) than the lossy tracks, and that may be why the 325 can hum right through them."
I don't know what "lossless tracks" or "lossy tracks" are. And I do use the LFE.

Also, what affect if any is there on a 7.2 receiver if you configure your speakers in 5.1? And what happens to the power that is designated for those unused channels?

Thanks again. You've been very helpful.

UPDATE:
Okay, I plugged in the Yamaha and simply connected the digital optical cable from the OUT on the TV to the IN on the Yamaha as I was instructed by the Yamaha Tech. Insert one Saving Private Ryan DVD, scan to the beach landing, turn the volume ALL the way up as the tech advised and th unit turned itself off within 5 seconds.
I immediately contacted Yamaha customer support and explained the situation to ANOTHER tech who agreed that the unit is defective. So now I battle with the retailer who I now found out is NOT an authorized Yamaha dealer thus voiding any warranty. Even though the ad stated otherwise. I have been duped and I am a fool.
This now leads me to a new but somewhat exciting problem. What should I buy to replace my mistake?
I really need some ideas. I mostly use the unit for Home Theatre movie watching, but I do listen to the occasional classic rock station. Denon? Onkyo? Marantz? Harmon Kardon? I know earlier I said I'd like to stay under $1,200.00, but I've decided I'd like to stay under $800.00. Thanks again.......

BadAssJazz
02-20-2013, 10:23 AM
Is it Sir T or Sherlock the Terrible? One good point, setting speakers to "small" opposed to "large", and, one good observation, BAJ, here's what T was getting at, HD audio formats cannot be passed via optical or coaxial connections at least the lossless DTS-MA or Dolby Tru HD. So the Yamaha is asked to handle a wider frequency range, NOW, that is assuming the OP was playing a Blu-ray disc opposed to DVD, if DVD, then, uh, nevermind. :)

.

Yep, I was under the impression that he was using a standard DVD, as opposed to a blu ray. And yep, I saw STT's endpoint, but wanted to toss out the obvious for comedic effect. I've read about 4 audio forums yesterday and people were much too serious about the discussions/gear. ("Why so serious?") In any event, I thought the OP had the HK635, not 325, so all moot. Back to home room I go to brush up on reading/comprehension skills and practice putting on my Joker facepaint. :)

BadAssJazz
02-20-2013, 11:15 AM
So now I battle with the retailer who I now found out is NOT an authorized Yamaha dealer thus voiding any warranty. Even though the ad stated otherwise. I have been duped and I am a fool.


Make sure you pass along the name of said retailer to any and all consumer watchdog groups and BBB. Also, depending on where this retailer conducts business you may yet have recourse through local, state, etc., consumer protection agencies. Clearly they sold you a defective product. Unless your receipt is stamped "All Sales Final: No Returns" you may yet be able to recover your money or get an exchange. Even with an "all sales final" receipt, your credit card company (or Googlepay, or Paypal) may be able to intervene as well. Heck, I'd probably even go as far as contacting my local news depending on the dollar amount, since some of the Bay Area networks all have a consumer advocacy segment aimed at shining the brightest light on these shady retailers.Sometimes you have to shame businesses into doing right by you. Research your options. Even if it's nothing more than a little internet justice, it's worth it.



This now leads me to a new but somewhat exciting problem. What should I buy to replace my mistake? I really need some ideas. I mostly use the unit for Home Theatre movie watching, but I do listen to the occasional classic rock station. Denon? Onkyo? Marantz? Harmon Kardon? I know earlier I said I'd like to stay under $1,200.00, but I've decided I'd like to stay under $800.00. Thanks again.......

What really sucks about all of this is that the retailer ruined the chances of you ever buying a Yamaha product ever again. While I haven't owned Yammie in years, some of their recent crop of AVRs have earned solid reviews for their performance.

I won't tell you what to buy. I will tell you to research and expand your knowledge base and read equipment reviews. Whether it's whathifi.com, dolby.com, stereophile.com, avsforum.com, audioreview.com, or simply hopping into your car and driving to your nearest audiophile boutique to audition gear in person and pick the local guru's brain, there are countless ways to go about making an informed decision. And trust me, if you're anything like the rest of us, once you truly delve in, you'll be glad that you did.

Don't be discouraged by your budget. For $800 you can still get everything that you need in an AVR. Ordinarily, I'd suggest used gear or equipment that has been renewed by the manufacturer to original specifications, but having been burned once, I don't expect you to take any chances this time around. You need to hit a home run here, so I'll leave that discussion for another day.

If you choose to buy from the internet again, be sure to go to the manufacturer's website first to confirm the authorized sellers list. There is only one aspect of your relationship to an internet retailer that you can absolutely trust: the part where your money leaves your wallet once you click "Pay Now." Safeguard yourself.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-20-2013, 01:29 PM
Can you explain what you meant by this: "The 325 can only play the lossy tracks on Bluray, not the lossless tracks. The lossless tracks are a bit more dynamic(especially in the LFE) than the lossy tracks, and that may be why the 325 can hum right through them."
I don't know what "lossless tracks" or "lossy tracks" are. And I do use the LFE.

Lossy soundtracks are soundtracks that are data reduced to get more information on the disc. DTS and Dolby Digital are lossy encoder/decoders, and these sound formats are exclusively used on DVD and streaming. These tracks do not sound like the original masters they are encoded from, and are a little less dynamic than loss-less tracks.

Loss-less soundtracks have no data removed, and is found in the form of DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD. To reduce the size of the audio data stream, Dolby is zipped up in a data reduced "wrapper" during encoding, and unzipped at the other end back to the original PCM file. DTS MA is transmitted as a core(for backwards compatibility), with metadata stacked on top which is the remaining loss-less data. These two formats are found on Bluray disc.


Also, what affect if any is there on a 7.2 receiver if you configure your speakers in 5.1? And what happens to the power that is designated for those unused channels?

There is no effect at all. With the additional channels unused, you might have more dynamic power going to the channels that are.

Mr Peabody
02-20-2013, 01:37 PM
I should have known not to doubt your knowledge on the matter. They say you put the "B" in Bad.

Why not get the Yamaha fixed? It's a shame Yamaha won't step in and get behind their product, it's not like you bought it out the back door if the site said authorized. Seems there's a legal issue there claiming something you are not. Any way the 673 has a lot of good feature and a repair bill would be less than a new receiver.


Yep, I was under the impression that he was using a standard DVD, as opposed to a blu ray. And yep, I saw STT's endpoint, but wanted to toss out the obvious for comedic effect. I've read about 4 audio forums yesterday and people were much too serious about the discussions/gear. ("Why so serious?") In any event, I thought the OP had the HK635, not 325, so all moot. Back to home room I go to brush up on reading/comprehension skills and practice putting on my Joker facepaint. :)

Glen B
02-20-2013, 01:46 PM
I need some advice and expert opinons. I'll run through the brief history of events.
I recently purchased a Yamaha RX-V673 for my home theatre system, but once I connected the unit and began to adjust it, I found out that when I turned the volume to around +8, the unit would turn itself off if there was any sharp sound effect such as gun shots. Or if I was playing music at that volume, it would eventually blow out and turn itself off. There wasn't any damage and the unit would turn right back on, but it would continously happen. Granted, it would not happen if the volume remained around 0. The range of the volume went from -45 to +16.
Now I don't have a $10,000 system. I have Infinity Primus 360 speakers. I tried using banana clips to ensure the speaker wires weren't touching. No change.
So eventually I returned the unit to an online company who tested it and said everything is fine with the unit. And that he had tested it all the way up to 70% of the max volume. I responded that he needed to turn the volume to about +8 and watch the beach landing scene from Saving Private Ryan and that the unit would cut off within the first minute. He immediately responded by telling me that the unit is NEVER supposed to be operated above 0 volume. And that the distortion is what is causing the unit to turn itself off. Sound like a load of BS to you? Because when I turned the unit to +10 while it was working listening to satellite music it was crystal clear. Absolutely no distortion.
Prior to this unit I had a Harmon Kardon AVR325 which I could turn the volume to the max and it would function flawlessly and was clear. And it was louder than the Yamaha.
So my questions in addition to anything I've asked above are the following:
1. Is this guy lying through his teeth? I cannot turn the volume above 0?
2. Are my expectations to high? Should you never operate a unit at max volume?
3. What are some comparable models for the RX-V673?
4. Also, is there a problem with operating a 7.2 capable receiver in 5.1 configuration (two front towers, two rear surrounds, center channel and sub)?

Thank you in advance for any assistance.

As I suspected, your speakers may seem like a benign load with their 8 ohm rating, but are actually presenting a very difficult load to your receiver, causing it to go into protection mode. I searched for and found a review and bench test of the Infinity 360 in Stereophile Magazine that reveals why.

Although the Infinity 360 is rated at 8 ohms nominal, its impedance drops well below 4 ohms in critical areas of the audio band, and also presents a quite severe phase angle to the driving amplifier. What the latter means, is that impedance and phase are out of sync at several points in the audio frequency band, making it a taxing load for the driving amplifier.

You either need an amp that can drive low impedances with no problems, or get different speakers. The Infinitys seem exceptional for the price, and you would need to spend a lot more to get speakers that sound better. An external amp driven from the receiver preouts may be a better solution.

Here is the quote from the Stereophile bench test:

"However, with an impedance magnitude that drops below 4 ohms in the lower midrange and high treble and an electrical phase angle that is extreme in the upper bass (fig.1), the speaker needs to be partnered with an amplifier or receiver that can drive low impedances with aplomb. (The combination of 5.2 ohms and 45 phase angle at 93Hz will tax amplifiers rated at 8 ohms.)"

Solid line is impedance, dotted line is phase.
9196

Mr Peabody
02-20-2013, 01:47 PM
Translated, in the end Dolby Tru HD and DTS-MA are supposed to be the same as the original master soundtrack, once decoded no compression. "Lossless" nothing lost.


Lossy soundtracks are soundtracks

that are data reduced to get more information on the disc. DTS and Dolby

Digital are lossy encoder/decoders, and these sound formats are exclusively used on DVD and streaming. These tracks do not sound like the original masters they are encoded from, and are a little less dynamic than loss-less tracks.

Loss-less soundtracks have no data removed, and is found in the form of DTS HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD. To reduce the size of the audio data stream, Dolby is zipped up in a data reduced "wrapper" during encoding, and unzipped at the other end back to the original PCM file. DTS MA is transmitted as a core(for backwards compatibility), with metadata stacked on top which is the remaining loss-less data. These two formats are found on Bluray disc.



There is no effect at all. With the additional channels unused, you might have more dynamic power going to the channels that are. [/FONT][/COLOR]

PaBowHunter340
02-21-2013, 06:34 PM
So you understand what I mean by challenging. For twenty minutes straight you have full power gunshots, deep loud bass in the main channels to 30hz, loud bass to 40hz in the surrounds, and bass to 17hz in the LFE. This is what I saw from the RTA's on each channel in my system while watching the movie last night. There were quite a few occasions where the power meters jumped to 100+ watts coming from the L/R mains, hence why I knew you were running your mains on large.

Mr. T:
After re-connecting the HK AVR325 I determined that my TV has enough HDMI inputs that I can actually use the HK AVR325 if I choose to do so. I only connect a PS3 and DirectTV receiver to the TV (or AVR if I could). So I may just leave the HK AVR325 in place. Heck, it sounds great. I don't get to play with all of the new technology such as the connectivity to the www and such, but I also have a spare $500 in my pocket. More than likely I'll conduct a slow search for the replacement for the HK. I do like gadgets.
In addtition to all of the other great information I've learned from the responses in this thread, your suggestion to change my front main speakers to SMALL has really made a difference in the sound quality for both music and movies. I literally had to turn the power down on my sub to about 10-20%. I have a BIC-America Acoustech PL200. Not a very expensive sub, but it's getting the job done. Prior to switching my mains to small, I was forced to turn the power on my sub up to about 45%.
I think the only negative (and I'm not sure it's a negative yet) I can see is that the sub is delivering so much of the low frequencies that it's almost difficult to finely tune the correct amount of power to the sub via the power knob on the rear of the sub. Adjusting the power knob on the rear of the sub has become much more precise. I suppose that's a good problem to have. I like it this way so far. Thanks........

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-21-2013, 06:52 PM
Mr. T:
After re-connecting the HK AVR325 I determined that my TV has enough HDMI inputs that I can actually use the HK AVR325 if I choose to do so. I only connect a PS3 and DirectTV receiver to the TV (or AVR if I could). So I may just leave the HK AVR325 in place. Heck, it sounds great. I don't get to play with all of the new technology such as the connectivity to the www and such, but I also have a spare $500 in my pocket. More than likely I'll conduct a slow search for the replacement for the HK. I do like gadgets.

Man, I am glad this all worked out for you. Here is my only rub. You have the PS3, one of the finest sounding Bluray players on the market, and the best you will be getting out of it is the older lossy codecs. A cheap DVD player would get you the same. The PS3 has the best lossless decoding algorithms in the business, and it would be a shame to let it go to waste by using the HK. However, I am really glad you are considering upgrading to a more modern receiver in the future.



In addtition to all of the other great information I've learned from the responses in this thread, your suggestion to change my front main speakers to SMALL has really made a difference in the sound quality for both music and movies. I literally had to turn the power down on my sub to about 10-20%. I have a BIC-America Acoustech PL200. Not a very expensive sub, but it's getting the job done. Prior to switching my mains to small, I was forced to turn the power on my sub up to about 45%.
I think the only negative (and I'm not sure it's a negative yet) I can see is that the sub is delivering so much of the low frequencies that it's almost difficult to finely tune the correct amount of power to the sub via the power knob on the rear of the sub. Adjusting the power knob on the rear of the sub has become much more precise. I suppose that's a good problem to have. I like it this way so far. Thanks........

Sure. Another tip for the $500 dollars saved. Get you a sound level meter like this one

Sound Level Meter Radio Shack 33-2055 on eBay! (http://compare.ebay.com/like/321062575460?var=lv&ltyp=AllFixedPriceItemTypes&var=sbar)

It is infinitely easier to match your subs with you mains with this meter. It is impossible to do by ear, I assure you. When you are ready to buy another receiver, make sure you find one with Audyssey built in. Not only does it correct any abnormalities with your speaker/room interactions, but it time and phase aligns the sub and the mains for better integration and coherence.

You will be in Hometheater heaven after all of this.

PaBowHunter340
02-21-2013, 07:08 PM
So the codecs in the HK are older and substandard to the codecs the PS3 are currently utilizing? And this will negatively effect the sound quality coming from the PS3?
I'll order the sound meter tomorrow when I have a chance to shop around on the WWW. But I've found a new one for $50.
Can you explain how the meter assists in matching the sub to the mains? What is Audyssey? What does it do? And what are some examples of AVR's that have Audyssey?
Thanks again.......

*UPDATE: I did some quick research and came up with the following AVR with Audyssey.
1. Onkyo TX 717 or 818 $584.00 to $880.00.
2. Denon AVR2313Ci $900.00
3. Marantz SR5007 $850.00.

Now obviously the Onkyo is much cheaper than the the other two, but cost isn't going to be my only consideration. I've never owned an AVR from any of these companies. And the Marantz has me intrigued. I don't know why. Maybe because I don't know anybody that has a Marantz. You know how it is: First kid on the block with a new toy.
What do you think of these three selections? Please take into consideration that I will mostly be using the AVR for home theater use. And that my speakers may limit the capabilities of the AVR's music sound quality.
Although I have considered shopping around for some new speakers. Klipsch?

Also, I see you have an OPPO BDP-103 and a PS3. I currently have a PS3 which I use as my Blu Ray player. I rarely listen to music via my player. It is mainly used for movies and occasionally a game.
Is there an advantage to buying an OPPO BDP-103? Is the quality of the video better? The 3D? I see I can get an OPPO for about $500 on Amazon.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
02-22-2013, 03:04 PM
So the codecs in the HK are older and substandard to the codecs the PS3 are currently utilizing? And this will negatively effect the sound quality coming from the PS3?

I would have to say yes to this. Your HK supports lossy DTS and Dolby Digital, two codecs that came to DVD back in 1997. The PS3 does lossless DTS HD MA, and Dolby TrueHD, two lossless codecs that came to Bluray in 2006 via the PS3. To my ears, the lossy codecs sound lifeless, sound stage more narrow, and they sound less natural than the lossless codecs.



I'll order the sound meter tomorrow when I have a chance to shop around on the WWW. But I've found a new one for $50.
Can you explain how the meter assists in matching the sub to the mains? What is Audyssey? What does it do? And what are some examples of AVR's that have Audyssey?
Thanks again.......

The HK has a enternal pink noise generator that moves the pink noise from channel to channel. You use the meter to measure the output of each channel, and use your AVR's individual channel volume to adjust each channel until they are all the same volume. When you get to the subwoofer, you raise the volume about 3-4db's louder than you mains. The mains should read 75db on each channel, and the subwoofer should read 78-79db.



*UPDATE: I did some quick research and came up with the following AVR with Audyssey.
1. Onkyo TX 717 or 818 $584.00 to $880.00.
2. Denon AVR2313Ci $900.00
3. Marantz SR5007 $850.00.

Personally I would go for the TX 818 because it has the most sophisticated version of Audyssey. Both the Denon and Marantz are great as well.


Now obviously the Onkyo is much cheaper than the the other two, but cost isn't going to be my only consideration. I've never owned an AVR from any of these companies. And the Marantz has me intrigued. I don't know why. Maybe because I don't know anybody that has a Marantz. You know how it is: First kid on the block with a new toy.
What do you think of these three selections? Please take into consideration that I will mostly be using the AVR for home theater use. And that my speakers may limit the capabilities of the AVR's music sound quality.
Although I have considered shopping around for some new speakers. Klipsch?

Depending on which Klipsch speakers you choose, they are just fine. However, I would not worry about speakers that much, what you have is just fine.


Also, I see you have an OPPO BDP-103 and a PS3. I currently have a PS3 which I use as my Blu Ray player. I rarely listen to music via my player. It is mainly used for movies and occasionally a game.
Is there an advantage to buying an OPPO BDP-103? Is the quality of the video better? The 3D? I see I can get an OPPO for about $500 on Amazon.

If you are going to watch Bluray movies, there really is no difference between the Oppo and PS3. I keep a PS3 in my system because it is just better at streaming, and gives the highest quality Netflix and Amazon streaming of any player aside from the Sony BD790. Not to mention my PS3 plays SACD's.

Mr Peabody
02-22-2013, 04:49 PM
The Onkyo would have the closest drive power to the HK