Agh: cables

[nusiclover]

darn it- just when you think youve learned something of value

ok, confession is that 3 months ago i thought speaker cables were speaker cables. then i come to find out how they apparantly make your system sound "warmer" more "open" more "tansparent" give "tighter bass" and the list goes on. coincidently i found out how stabilizers under your components can give you better soundstaging.
ok, so i started to believe all this stuff. because when i searched the net, sure enough, i found rave reviews by rave reviewers supporting all this jive. btw, im still undecided.
but, these are my questions now:
do different speaker companies sound different?
what gauge is best, and at what point do gauge sizes become sheer fabrication?
finally, will a 14 gauge, or 12, or 10 (see question above) from Radio Shack sound any less good than JPS labs $2000 ones?

your honesty is noted, but not a convincing factor (lol)

[skeptic]

Despite the rave reviews, the audiophile cable industry which has been around for over 20 years still has not produced a single shred of credible evidence that their products are in any way better or even different than their more inexpensive easier to find counterparts which have been used successfully for decades by audiophiles. Most professional audio engineers scoff at the whole thing too and just laugh that anyone would waste their time and money on these products. Yet some audiophiles insist that they do make their equipment sound different, sometimes better. The best calculations and measurements show at most that there are small differences in frequency response between one product and another. These differences are near or beyond the threshold of audibility for most people. Furthermore, if they exist at all, there is no way to predict in advance how they would affect any particular sound system whether for the better, worse, or not at all. The only way for anyone to find out for themselves is through endless and expensive trial and error and since the companies which make them bring out new models faster than you can buy and try the old ones, you have a hopeless task in front of you if you want to do your own research.

Stereo Review Magazine did a fair and well thought out test many years ago and concluded that Monster Cable of the day sounded no different from 16 gage lamp cord but both outperformed 18 gage speaker wire. The fallout of this article was undoubtedly a hew and cry from the manufacturers who advertise in these magazines and as far as I know, neither Stereo Review or any other magazine ever made such a mistake again. Among serious audiphiles including those some of us consider to be on the fringe of sanity, those who can be taken seriously at all admit that at most, the differences are very subtle and only are audible on some recordings played through the very best sound systems which they refer to as high resolution. Unless you have many thousands of dollars invested in equipment, IMO, you would be wasting your money to buy them.

Personally, I use 16 gage speaker wire purchased at Home Depot for about $20 for 100 feet and $1 Radio Shack interconnects. I use the power cords which came with the equipment. If the manufacturer felt a better cord would have helped performance, IMO he would have supplied it himself since it is a very cheap item for HIM to purchase and install. If that gave him an audible edge over the competition, he'd use it.

Buyer beware. These products are apparantly not on the FTC's radar screen....Yet. If you read most of the advertising copy very carefully, you will see that while they talk in generalities, they rarely if ever make any specific performance claims in writing and even more rarely give meaningful technical specifications. Given the enormous profits to be made on this product genre, it is not surprising that the manufacturers give tremendous incentives to retailers and their salesmen to push them on customers where verbal promises and claims can always be disavowed by the people who made them and certainly by the manufacturers themselves. My advice, stay away and spend your money on something you are more sure of.

[okiemax]

darn it- just when you think youve learned something of value

ok, confession is that 3 months ago i thought speaker cables were speaker cables. then i come to find out how they apparantly make your system sound "warmer" more "open" more "tansparent" give "tighter bass" and the list goes on. coincidently i found out how stabilizers under your components can give you better soundstaging.
ok, so i started to believe all this stuff. because when i searched the net, sure enough, i found rave reviews by rave reviewers supporting all this jive. btw, im still undecided.
but, these are my questions now:
do different speaker companies sound different?
what gauge is best, and at what point do gauge sizes become sheer fabrication?
finally, will a 14 gauge, or 12, or 10 (see question above) from Radio Shack sound any less good than JPS labs $2000 ones?

your honesty is noted, but not a convincing factor (lol)

You are going to get conflicting opinions on whether audiophile cables are any better than the least expensive alternatives. I would suggest you find out for yourself by taking advantage of the 30-day money-back guarantees offered by many firms. I would not buy new cables without such a guarantee. Try some different makes and models and compare them with the inexpensive 12 awg zip cord from Home Depot and the interconnects from Radio Shack. I believe better cables can make a small difference in performance, but your experience may turn out to be different from mine, and that would be OK.

I don't think you have to spend a lot to get better cables. Check the web sites of small firms that sell direct, such as Blue Jeans Cable and SignalCable, or eBay for Zu Cable's auctions(Zu gives a 60-day guarantee).

[skeptic]

Make sure you get your UNCONDITIONAL money back guarantee in writing and that it is not a store credit. Funny how memories are short and what seemed like a promise in advance becomes a misunderstanding later on. Don't be a sap.

[Monstrous Mike]

...finally, will a 14 gauge, or 12, or 10 (see question above) from Radio Shack sound any less good than JPS labs $2000 ones?
I you think $2000 cables would sound better than they just might to you. However, you should be aware that it is virtually impossible for a person to be completely objective when comparing two such cables. We are human beings, not machines. Therefore, any information we have stored in our brains while we are trying to "objectively" compare these two cables presents a very real probability that our assessment will not be fair. And no matter how hard you try and convince yourself you are being completely objective, our subconcious is distorting our perception without our knowledge.

On top of that, it is also likely that most people here would conduct a flawed test. In these instances, there may actually be a real difference but it could be the result of the listener being in a slightly different position, as an example.

You would tend to think that if a set of cables that cost 100 times more and were actually better than basic Radio Shack cables, then every erson with a set of ears should clearly hear the difference. But this is not the case, so I for one am highly suspicious of such claims. The reasons put forth by many audiophiles for people not hearing these differences are varied from possible to riiculous. One of the best ones is that your audio system does not have enough "resolution" to reveal these differences.

Well, it is open to anyone to come up with a proper test, using "revealing" enough equipment where the results can be repeated by people using the same test and equipment. This has not been done yet. I think that in itself says a lot.

[turbodog]

As an electrical engineer and a confirmed agnostic, I feel that (except for using sufficiently heavy guage wire for the length of run), wire is wire is wire. I have abnormally long speaker wire runs (25'). I used 10 guage romex (runs under the floor) purchased at Home Depot, for less than 1/3 the cost of their 14 guage 'speaker wire'.

I did use the 'fancy' (but remember, still Home Depot) 14 guage speaker wire for the final 2 feet at each end... just because the Romex is ugly, stiff and hard to work with.

[mtrycraft]

I would suggest you find out for yourself by taking advantage of the 30-day money-back guarantees offered by many firms. I would not buy new cables without such a guarantee. Try some different makes and models and compare them with the inexpensive 12 awg zip cord from Home Depot and the interconnects from Radio Shack. I believe better cables can make a small difference in performance, but your experience may turn out to be different from mine, and that would be OK.



How should he listen to them so he gets a fair hearing? Any bias controls implemented? Why not?

Even the latest TAS shootout recommends Home Depot cables :)

[mtrycraft]

wire is wire is wire. .


Well, some are black, some are white, some are other shades. Differently dressed, more expensive, etc:D

[paul_pci]

How should he listen to them so he gets a fair hearing? Any bias controls implemented? Why not?

Even the latest TAS shootout recommends Home Depot cables :)


Granted, I skimmed the article, but I don't recall any "recommendation" by TAS, albeit it was cool that they included a wire that many audiophiles would never consider.

[mtrycraft]

coincidently i found out how stabilizers under your components can give you better soundstaging.

Audio nonsense, except for turntables but they are dinosaurs, arent they?

ok, so i started to believe all this stuff. because when i searched the net, sure enough, i found rave reviews by rave reviewers supporting all this jive. btw, im still undecided.

If you search the net you will find support for creation, intelligent design, psychics, holistic medicines, etc. Why would audio be exempt from voodoo, urban legends, bs, etc?


do different speaker companies sound different?

Ask them for credible evidence for their claims. They have zero such evidence and rely on testimonials. So does creation, ID, psychics, etc.


what gauge is best,

16 ga or thicker, depending on length, a rule of thumb.

and at what point do gauge sizes become sheer fabrication?

Very short distances, say 5 ft.

finally, will a 14 gauge, or 12, or 10 (see question above) from Radio Shack sound any less good than JPS labs $2000 ones?

No such evidence exists in over 20 years of trying.