View Full Version : If Romney gets in which country will America start a war with next?
1) God created all MANKIND (err Humankind - God wasn't much for woman or inclusion apparently)
It appears you are saying God was not for a woman.
2) that means God created GAY men.
You attribute to God something thats not true.
3) But the religious whack-a-doodles can't accept that FACT because that would mean God deliberately created Gay men and therefore it can't be sinful.
You fail to see every one on this planet is sinful...straight and gay.
4)Rather than simply admit that the ordinary humans on earth who wrote the bible made a mistake in interpretation or lost in translation - they instead decide to stare the FACTS straight in the face and say - science is always wrong and must be the work of the devil.
This last remark is totally stupid...you dont even realise what you are saying.
__________________
Number 1 I was being flippant. The term Mankind is not PC any longer - like much in holy texts - there was hardly any forward thinking in them
#2)
What? Who created Men and Women?
Answer: God.
Homosexuality is 100% BORN IN - NOT a choice - 100% FACT. See biology - the bane of religious nutwings. They are born gay which means they were "created" Gay which means that God created Gay men.
I am not as up on my biology because I took those courses in the mid 90s. At that time they could not conclusively prove that Lesbians were born that way - meaning they could not measure parts of the brain to be able to distinguish if you're gay or straight - they could and can in men. They may be able to do this with women as 15 years is a long time. But these irrifutable facts with Gay men have been around for 20 years. And yet still the nutwings call it a choice.
#3 This is one part of the bible that is just plain STUPID in every logical facet of the term. It is through ones actions and actions ALONE that someone is "evil" or "sinful" if I must use the word.
#4) God didn't write the Bible - man did. Just like L Ron Hubbard wrote science fiction and found more money writing a religion. The single greatest money making scheme going is to create a cult of worshipers who hand their money over to a self proclaimed messenger of God. Promise people heaven just do what we tell you to do and you will have this great afterlife in death. Bwahahaha - what a great scam - I hate religion but I have to hand it to the people who manage to sucker in massive amounts of people.
At least L Ron Hubbard was somewhat original in the nutty things. Christianity lifted most of the rubbish from previous out of date religions. Born of the virgin (plagiarism) being killed by people to be resurrected later - (plagiarism), the burning bush (plagiarism), magical feats (plagiarism).
And that's the entire problem with the any argument made about religion - there is no point in talking about parts of the bible since it's made up bogus garbage - and anything it has to say about anything is no better or deeper than what a science fiction writer has to say. If you lived your life like Captain Picard you'd be a far more moral ethical and quality individual than following the teachings of any holy book. The God Who Wasn't There on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5861220)
frenchmon
09-28-2012, 02:59 AM
If you believe we are children of god then as a child of god I am as he intended. He gave me the gift of loving a man instead of a woaman. My desires are a natural part of me as are yours. You could no more change than I could. We are as god intended us or we are biology in all it's wonderful variations.
I would rather not get into this with you JM...or any of you guys. I have tons of respect for you guys. We see things differently on this subject.
JM...where does the bible say we are all children of God?
where the heathens in the OT children of God? I think not. So I don't think we are all His children.
Now the bible tells us God made Adam and Eve perfect . From my understanding they where the only two. After the fall we are all missing the mark.
So what you like men....who cares, I certainly don't, and I still like you as an audio fiend. It was God who helped me get over my hatred for gay men. I once escaped a man as a young lad 6 years old who tried to molest me, and as an young adult, I was once in a high speed car chase....a car full of gay guys back in the 80's where after me and I had the peddle to the metal. So I built up hatred for gays. Until God helped me see that all gays are not alike.
I would not say God gave you the desire to love men. I have no doubt that if you say you where born that way, then you where born that way. I know other gays who say they where born that way as well. I also know guys who where molested for years and turned out that way.
I don't think the bible teaches God made anything perfect beyound creation. I believe your desires are natural.. Ever sense the fall things have been evolving to what it is today. God planted perfect seed in Adam and things happen. After the fall is when imperfection came.
If you are a believer in the God of Abraham, Moses and Israel, then you understand that God does not intend to leave any of his people in our now conditions....the bible paints a different picture.
This thread has gotten way off track.
Can we get back to who we will go to war with next?
JohnMichael
09-28-2012, 06:00 AM
This thread has gotten way off track.
Can we get back to who we will go to war with next?
I moved it to the Steel Cage many posts ago. It had already descended into madness and name calling. I doubt if there is any saving it now
JohnMichael
09-28-2012, 07:09 AM
So what you like men....who cares, I certainly don't, and I still like you as an audio fiend. It was God who helped me get over my hatred for gay men. I once escaped a man as a young lad 6 years old who tried to molest me, and as an young adult, I was once in a high speed car chase....a car full of gay guys back in the 80's where after me and I had the peddle to the metal. So I built up hatred for gays. Until God helped me see that all gays are not alike.
I would not say God gave you the desire to love men. I have no doubt that if you say you where born that way, then you where born that way. I know other gays who say they where born that way as well. I also know guys who where molested for years and turned out that way.
I am sorry to hear a pedophile not a gay man tried to molest you when you were 6. Peophillia is considered abnormal behavior caused by the abuser's early abuse. The damage to the normal development of the person is what causes someone to become a pedophile. The fact that he was the same sex as you does not make him gay since many pedophiles molest children based more on availability than on orientation. Studies have shown that 93% of pedophiles are heterosexual. Pedophiles are created and gay men are born that way.
I am also sorry to hear you were chased by a car full of gay men. I live in a small city surrounded by a very rural area and each night leaving the bar I had to drive like hell to get away from a car full of haters. I always drove small cars so I could navigate the back alleys and areas where their pick-up trucks and large cars did not do as well. When I think of all that was done to me I could easily develop a hate for straight men. As it is I need only be leery of them.
noddin0ff
09-28-2012, 09:11 AM
I know we've long left war and the economy but I can't pass on this opportunity to soap box again. Interesting read from USA Today of all places...
Why not drop money out of a helicopter? (http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/story/2012-09-25/ben-bernake-inflation-money/57840674/1)
The closing paragraph
"The Great Recession, with its long period of extended high unemployment rates, has caused unnecessary economic hardship for millions. Remarkably, there's a simple way to help people and improve the economy. Even more remarkably, we aren't doing it."
We shouldn't let the hyperventilation about budget deficits distract us from jobs. Should we be propping up the mortgage industry or should "the Fed ... finance increased government spending on such things as infrastructure and education, leading to more construction workers and teachers being hired without any need to increase borrowing or taxes. "
Pretty easy call in my book. If we want recovery, if we want future growth, we should be dropping money to create the jobs to make it happen.
noddin0ff
09-28-2012, 09:12 AM
And, a lot easier than going to war to spur the economy. Not that Romney is interested in helping the economy...
I'll blame the far right and/or the Tea Party for the lunacy and distractions and obstructions that have kept the Gov't from doing what we should be doing...
JohnMichael
09-28-2012, 10:00 AM
And, a lot easier than going to war to spur the economy. Not that Romney is interested in helping the economy...
I'll blame the far right and/or the Tea Party for the lunacy and distractions and obstructions that have kept the Gov't from doing what we should be doing...
I will also lay blame on the Tea Party.
frenchmon
09-28-2012, 11:40 AM
This thread has gotten way off track.
Can we get back to who we will go to war with next?
Hey I'm with you on this talking.....religion will divide more so than politics.
frenchmon
09-28-2012, 11:47 AM
well dropping money might be a lot easier than war....especially they way they blocked the vote for the veterans....who wants to serve with the treatment those guys get during and after they've severed.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
09-29-2012, 06:23 PM
So what you like men....who cares, I certainly don't, and I still like you as an audio fiend. It was God who helped me get over my hatred for gay men. I once escaped a man as a young lad 6 years old who tried to molest me, and as an young adult, I was once in a high speed car chase....a car full of gay guys back in the 80's where after me and I had the peddle to the metal. So I built up hatred for gays. Until God helped me see that all gays are not alike.
Frenchy, I had a uncle that tried it with me when I was a kid. It didn't make me hate gays, but it did make me dislike him. When I got into my teens, I punched him in the face. Didn't change anything, but it sure made me feel better.
I have seven college partners who I am extremely tight with(we act more like brothers than friends). Three of them are gay, one is bi, and the rest of us are straight. My gay friends taught me to just be cool around other gay guys, and except them as a person sans sexuality. It was great advice, as I was already comfortable in my own skin, and didn't mind being around a lot of gay guys. One thing I learned from my experience around gay guys. If they try and pick up on you, then you are probably pretty damn hot- cause they just don't chase just anything. Living here in the bay area, I get quite a few gay guys trying to pick up on me, so does that mean I am hot JM? LOLOLOL.
JohnMichael
09-29-2012, 06:33 PM
Frenchy, I had a uncle that tried it with me when I was a kid. It didn't make me hate gays, but it did make me dislike him. When I got into my teens, I punched him in the face. Didn't change anything, but it sure made me feel better.
I have seven college partners who I am extremely tight with(we act more like brothers than friends). Three of them are gay, one is bi, and the rest of us are straight. My gay friends taught me to just be cool around other gay guys, and except them as a person sans sexuality. It was great advice, as I was already comfortable in my own skin, and didn't mind being around a lot of gay guys. One thing I learned from my experience around gay guys. If they try and pick up on you, then you are probably pretty damn hot- cause they just don't chase just anything. Living here in the bay area, I get quite a few gay guys trying to pick up on me, so does that mean I am hot JM? LOLOLOL.
I have never met you but how you have described yourself, your acceptance of others, your love of animals and how you carry yourself, hell yes you are hot!
frenchmon
09-30-2012, 01:21 PM
Frenchy, I had a uncle that tried it with me when I was a kid. It didn't make me hate gays, but it did make me dislike him. When I got into my teens, I punched him in the face. Didn't change anything, but it sure made me feel better.
I have seven college partners who I am extremely tight with(we act more like brothers than friends). Three of them are gay, one is bi, and the rest of us are straight. My gay friends taught me to just be cool around other gay guys, and except them as a person sans sexuality. It was great advice, as I was already comfortable in my own skin, and didn't mind being around a lot of gay guys. One thing I learned from my experience around gay guys. If they try and pick up on you, then you are probably pretty damn hot- cause they just don't chase just anything. Living here in the bay area, I get quite a few gay guys trying to pick up on me, so does that mean I am hot JM? LOLOLOL.
I hated gays up util I was 29. What happened was I was at church and I asked a young lady if the choir director is gay. Next thing I know...3 days later I get a phone call from the choir director. He asked why I wanted to know. I told him he seemed like it to me. He asked if I wanted to talk about it. I never thought he ment now, but I said yeah, lets talk about why you are gay. Next thing I know abount and hour later he is at my front door. (church directory address book). I think he thought I was interested, Well we talked about it, and long story short, he was malested by an uncle over and over again. The guy started crying in my apartment. At that moment I actually felt sorry for him. I think later he got ADS and is on medication...the word is he has ADS. Mind you this was a long time ago.... He would call me up on acassion to see if I could fetch his medication from the store. The guys skin tone was much darker than usual. Dont know if that is a side effect of ADS or the drugs or what.
When I moved from North Carolina to St. Louis back in 2008, I took and IT job and there is this one gay guy named Bennett. This guy aint trying to hide nothing....I mean he goes out of his way to let you know he is gay. Now the guy at church was black, Bennett is white. Well if you know me and saw me on a daily basis, you would see I am very out going....I get alone with every body even gays by this time having gotten over my homophonbia. Well Bennett was sitting next to my desk this particulor day and said "hey...show me yours and I will show you mine". Pissed me off big time. I went off on the dude. He remarked calm down, I was just kidding. As time went on Bennett was the kinda person you learned to hate. Example: If he saw you going into the break room for something he would ask if you would bring him things back, and if you would say, "do it your self" he would say stuff like, "if you dont bring it, I will tell you in graphic detail what two men do together. Bennett was disgustiing.
But we did have a little fun at Bennetts expense. I worked the night shift at that company. We also had some hot girls who worked there as well. There was this one hot girl about 25 years old....all she had to do was monitor a few networks to make sure they would not go down, and if so find the error and bring it back up. Well on that shift neteworks hardly went down so she spent a lot of times sleep at her desk. Now on that shift you could dress any way you pleased. We this particular night it was summer time and hot as hell. This young hot looking girl was sleep. She woke up to go to the rest room and started walking towards the door. she had on a very thin top and you could see her nipples where hard about an inch long and her short shorts where all in her crack from front to back. All the guys where looking at her like she was the last women on earth. As she got up to go to the rest room, Bennett got up as well. He did not bat an eye as he walked behind her. Well when Bennett got back from the restroom we asked him about the hot girl with hard nipples and her shorts all up in her crack and did it do anything for him...he was in disgust as if it was a fly on dodo. Said that does nothing for him....we teasted him until his shift was over. Boy we had fun that night.
frenchmon
09-30-2012, 01:39 PM
Number 1 I was being flippant. The term Mankind is not PC any longer - like much in holy texts - there was hardly any forward thinking in them
#2)
What? Who created Men and Women?
Answer: God.
Homosexuality is 100% BORN IN - NOT a choice - 100% FACT. See biology - the bane of religious nutwings. They are born gay which means they were "created" Gay which means that God created Gay men.
I am not as up on my biology because I took those courses in the mid 90s. At that time they could not conclusively prove that Lesbians were born that way - meaning they could not measure parts of the brain to be able to distinguish if you're gay or straight - they could and can in men. They may be able to do this with women as 15 years is a long time. But these irrifutable facts with Gay men have been around for 20 years. And yet still the nutwings call it a choice.
#3 This is one part of the bible that is just plain STUPID in every logical facet of the term. It is through ones actions and actions ALONE that someone is "evil" or "sinful" if I must use the word.
#4) God didn't write the Bible - man did. Just like L Ron Hubbard wrote science fiction and found more money writing a religion. The single greatest money making scheme going is to create a cult of worshipers who hand their money over to a self proclaimed messenger of God. Promise people heaven just do what we tell you to do and you will have this great afterlife in death. Bwahahaha - what a great scam - I hate religion but I have to hand it to the people who manage to sucker in massive amounts of people.
At least L Ron Hubbard was somewhat original in the nutty things. Christianity lifted most of the rubbish from previous out of date religions. Born of the virgin (plagiarism) being killed by people to be resurrected later - (plagiarism), the burning bush (plagiarism), magical feats (plagiarism).
And that's the entire problem with the any argument made about religion - there is no point in talking about parts of the bible since it's made up bogus garbage - and anything it has to say about anything is no better or deeper than what a science fiction writer has to say. If you lived your life like Captain Picard you'd be a far more moral ethical and quality individual than following the teachings of any holy book. The God Who Wasn't There on Vimeo (http://vimeo.com/5861220)
RGA...do you really want me to respond to the above? AOr, could you care less?
JohnMichael
09-30-2012, 01:46 PM
I hated gays up util I was 29. What happened was I was at church and I asked a young lady if the choir director is gay. Next thing I know...3 days later I get a phone call from the choir director. He asked why I wanted to know. I told him he seemed like it to me. He asked if I wanted to talk about it. I never thought he ment now, but I said yeah, lets talk about why you are gay. Next thing I know abount and hour later he is at my front door. (church directory address book). I think he thought I was interested, Well we talked about it, and long story short, he was malested by an uncle over and over again. The guy started crying in my apartment. At that moment I actually felt sorry for him. I think later he got ADS and is on medication...the word is he has ADS. Mind you this was a long time ago.... He would call me up on acassion to see if I could fetch his medication from the store. The guys skin tone was much darker than usual. Dont know if that is a side effect of ADS or the drugs or what.
When I moved from North Carolina to St. Louis back in 2008, I took and IT job and there is this one gay guy named Bennett. This guy aint trying to hide nothing....I mean he goes out of his way to let you know he is gay. Now the guy at church was black, Bennett is white. Well if you know me and saw me on a daily basis, you would see I am very out going....I get alone with every body even gays by this time having gotten over my homophonbia. Well Bennett was sitting next to my desk this particulor day and said "hey...show me yours and I will show you mine". Pissed me off big time. I went off on the dude. He remarked calm down, I was just kidding. As time went on Bennett was the kinda person you learned to hate. Example: If he saw you going into the break room for something he would ask if you would bring him things back, and if you would say, "do it your self" he would say stuff like, "if you dont bring it, I will tell you in graphic detail what two men do together. Bennett was disgustiing.
But we did have a little fun at Bennetts expense. I worked the night shift at that company. We also had some hot girls who worked there as well. There was this one hot girl about 25 years old....all she had to do was monitor a few networks to make sure they would not go down, and if so find the error and bring it back up. Well on that shift neteworks hardly went down so she spent a lot of times sleep at her desk. Now on that shift you could dress any way you pleased. We this particular night it was summer time and hot as hell. This young hot looking girl was sleep. She woke up to go to the rest room and started walking towards the door. she had on a very thin top and you could see her nipples where hard about an inch long and her short shorts where all in her crack from front to back. All the guys where looking at her like she was the last women on earth. As she got up to go to the rest room, Bennett got up as well. He did not bat an eye as he walked behind her. Well when Bennett got back from the restroom we asked him about the hot girl with hard nipples and her shorts all up in her crack and did it do anything for him...he was in disgust as if it was a fly on dodo. Said that does nothing for him....we teasted him until his shift was over. Boy we had fun that night.
I am surprised that you have not met many decent gay guys since we are the norm. The gentleman who was out at work was probably on the defensive from prejudice he has had to endure. I also wonder if he did not threaten to tell you about what two men do together because he enjoyed your reaction. I walked into the locker room at work and a guy shoved a picture of a nude spread woman in my face. I find straight men can also be disgusting. Oh and the way the young woman was described and objectified is not better behavior than the gay guy's behaviors.
frenchmon
09-30-2012, 07:05 PM
I am surprised that you have not met many decent gay guys since we are the norm. The gentleman who was out at work was probably on the defensive from prejudice he has had to endure. I also wonder if he did not threaten to tell you about what two men do together because he enjoyed your reaction. I walked into the locker room at work and a guy shoved a picture of a nude spread woman in my face. I find straight men can also be disgusting. Oh and the way the young woman was described and objectified is not better behavior than the gay guy's behaviors.
Yeah us staight guys can be crass as well. But in the case of Bennett, he initiated just about every thing. He flaunted it. He even told the straight guys about his escapades behind buildings and in alleys. He was a real piece of work.
JohnMichael
09-30-2012, 07:26 PM
Yeah us staight guys can be crass as well. But in the case of Bennett, he initiated just about every thing. He flaunted it. He even told the straight guys about his escapades behind buildings and in alleys. He was a real piece of work.
I think you have missed or ignored many of my points. I think you are still uncomfortable or even have some hate going on. This saddens me.
Frenchmon
No need to respond - I won't believe in God and you won't believe he's not there. So may as well leave it at that.
Others:
Homophobia I always felt was kinda dumb - said it before and I'll say it again - the more gay men the better. As a single heterosexual guy anything that reduces my competition with women is a GOOD thing LOL. I have a much better chance with the ladies if my competition for the ladies are gay. :-) especially the good looking ones.
When I mentioned this to the knuckle dragging homophobics I could see the little light (albeit 12ax7 bright) go on and the wheel turn in their head that hey that makes sense. Now if I could turn hot lesbians straight (or at least bi) then I would be much happier. :mad2:
The issue always comes down to intolerance. And that usually comes from religion. You say "but RGA you are intolerant of religion" and that is true to the extent of conversation and debate. I will slam religion all day long but I am not going to go out and beat a Christian with a baseball bat because he believes in God - unlike Christians who beat black people for wanting equal rights and homosexuals for liking same sex.
And the reason that those Christians are out killing people is because they believe what their pastor/priest/holy book/father/nun or whatever nut in dress-up tells them. They believe in doing what God wills and what God wills is to purge the earth of evil doers (sinners). The issue is they want to control the country based on their false unprovable no science backing (not by any credible scientists from REAL non Pat Robertson religious based universities (which are all worthless).
These tea bagging whackjobs keep talking about the sanctity of marriage (marriage was around longer than Christianity but it requires them to read more than one book their whole life. Sanctity of marriage?
frenchmon
10-01-2012, 05:43 AM
I think you have missed or ignored many of my points. I think you are still uncomfortable or even have some hate going on. This saddens me.
JM...kindly point out what I failed to answer.
Have I showed contempt for you? Been hostile towards you? I've known you where gay for years now and have never treated you indifferent have I ?
I have no problem with gays, but I'm curious now....what gives you the impression other wise to the point it saddens you?
frenchmon
10-01-2012, 06:03 AM
Frenchmon
No need to respond - I won't believe in God and you won't believe he's not there. So may as well leave it at that.
Others:
Homophobia I always felt was kinda dumb - said it before and I'll say it again - the more gay men the better. As a single heterosexual guy anything that reduces my competition with women is a GOOD thing LOL. I have a much better chance with the ladies if my competition for the ladies are gay. :-) especially the good looking ones.
When I mentioned this to the knuckle dragging homophobics I could see the little light (albeit 12ax7 bright) go on and the wheel turn in their head that hey that makes sense. Now if I could turn hot lesbians straight (or at least bi) then I would be much happier. :mad2:
The issue always comes down to intolerance. And that usually comes from religion. You say "but RGA you are intolerant of religion" and that is true to the extent of conversation and debate. I will slam religion all day long but I am not going to go out and beat a Christian with a baseball bat because he believes in God - unlike Christians who beat black people for wanting equal rights and homosexuals for liking same sex.
And the reason that those Christians are out killing people is because they believe what their pastor/priest/holy book/father/nun or whatever nut in dress-up tells them. They believe in doing what God wills and what God wills is to purge the earth of evil doers (sinners). The issue is they want to control the country based on their false unprovable no science backing (not by any credible scientists from REAL non Pat Robertson religious based universities (which are all worthless).
These tea bagging whackjobs keep talking about the sanctity of marriage (marriage was around longer than Christianity but it requires them to read more than one book their whole life. Sanctity of marriage?
You know RGA....I'm starting to see you as the real hater here. Your miss understandings about christianity has really twisted the truth about what the bible teaches. You say some of the silliest stuff with out regard for the cultures, times, biblical languages, and context of the events I've ever heard. Just because some body says they are a Christian but yet does the things you say, Don't make that person a Christian in the sense of what a real Christian is. No need to write long lengthy post defending your self because the things you write on this subject is just stupid and immature in the context of biblical studies. It almost like you where hurt one time or another by it, and now you are lashing out against it. Stick to audio and you will get my attention, but I've seen enough of your rambling on matters of faith and Christianity to know you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
GMichael
10-01-2012, 06:44 AM
You guys amuse me. Keep up the good work.
It's actually not. Read the King James Bible Literally. Then come back to me. You either read it ALL as fable or you read it ALL as literal. If it's literal then the high number of slaughters through history in the name of the good book is completely acceptable. What you get is the "feelgood" heavily filtered version the priests dole out. No question that the filtered version I much prefer since I'd be dead now because I'm an Atheist.
Frankly I am not "up" on the bible as I was because I was too busy chuckling over the idiocy and factually wrong bits like Adam and Eve and Noah and the Arc that I tip my hat to those who can stand on a pulpit and not have to pay taxes and suck people for endless sums of cash to buy their private jets and not once sneak a chortle at the stuff they're putting in the kool-aid jar.
Yes there are plenty of people who hide behind religion but plenty of people act based on those texts - those words are IN the Bible and if one takes them literally then you get violence. The very fact that people believe in God based upon man written books like the Bible suggests that they are taking some of the Bible literally since there is zero evidence/proof there is a God then people are believing in this based on writing in a book - so why not also believe that Blacks and Gays are inferior.
Every social morally bankrupt debate in North America forces the sane secular part to pull the right wing religious conservatives into the 21st century. Equal rights for women - every left leaning democrat was for that - religious right fought against it - women after all are "lesser" and where did these tools get this info from - the Bible and their priest.
Rock music and Dancing are against God - WTF?
Gay rights - well it's still a battle in many places and once again it's the religious right who are always Anti-this or Anti-that except usually the this and that are the morally ethically correct things.
It's the religious right who opposed civil rights
It's the religious right against virtually any social program geared to HELP PEOPLE!! You know free medical care - no that is me helping someone so we can;t have that now can we.
It;s the religious right who are against the VETs, Medicare, Stem Cell Research, Evolution, Global Warming, and general critical thinking of any kind. It is religion that has people fly planes into buildings because they TRULY BELIEVE that they will be rewarded by their GOD. If they had a brain and didn;t believe that crap they would not fly into a building. Timothy McVeigh?
Certainly there are evil people without religion - for some their religion is power or money or political belief system - Mao, Stalin. But they don't ACT in the name of Atheism or non belief they act because they're greedy bastards or borderline insane to just insane.
The saying holds true - "good people do good things. Evil people do evil things, but for an otherwise good person to do something evil - that takes religion." (not direct quote but you've seen it).
Psychological experiments have proven this. A "group think" mentality can often yield passive minds to follow an evil act. Most of us saw this at school - some kid is picking on a smaller kid and otherwise "good" people just stand and watch the littler kid get his brains beat in. The Jehovah Witness believe blood transfusions are evil (or some nonsense) so they'll let their kid die for that "wrong" belief. Good people doing something patently evil (in ignorance but still evil) by not saving their child.
Killing abortion doctors because they're pro-life. They don't see the hypocrisy. Read the God Delusion which is about as Layman as the subject gets. Question your belief and think about all aspects of why you believe in God/religion and bibles. In almost every case it is some sort of a crutch to make you accept yourself better or make your life happier. (Two good results of course but IMO it's based on fallacy and wishful thinking/hoping).
Most people always look at "other" religions very critically and laugh at how dumb they are "Scientology" "Mormonism" but rarely look at their own religions from the same critical eye. Framing Christianity in an outside observer fashion and it's pretty much just as crazy at its core as Christianity. You've got the Westboro baptist church. You can write them off as nutty but they read the bible and there are a LOT more crackpots out there who buy into what they have to say.
Religion is intolerant to Gay people - it's complete dishonesty to curtail any equal rights while saying "God loves you" - it's such BS.
Westboro is an extreme version but it's deep seeded in the mentality that Chritianity preaches - which is "think like we do" "believe like we tell you" or you're "lesser" - lesser in that "you're going to hell while I'm going to heaven"
God Hates America - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Anwsku-9IiY&feature=related)
Frankly Richard Dawkins is absolutely right - the kids in the above video are being brainwashed and damaged by their parents - it's child abuse.
And this is just plain shocking Michael Moore vs Westboro Baptist Church - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ra_fAYl4Th4&feature=related)
^^^^
Good post except the Bible was never intended to be taken literally as it is all correspondences and by saying one thing, it really means something else. It would have been great if Swedenborg was able to translate more than the first several books of the OT but just reading his Arcana Celestia and then finding the same passages in the NT one can clearly see what I am saying, and also get a better understanding of what they are reading.
If you want to go as far as saying that the book is God's Word, then you have to say that EVERY book ever written is God's Word because we are all a part of him if you are a christian.
Anyway, lots of Hippocratic in religion.
Killing Abortion Doctors is at the top of the list.
Killing people who would not convert
Killing Muslims way back
Notice that reoccurring word?
Killing in the name of religion makes no sense and an All Loving God that will judge you in the end makes no sense and a God that loves everyone but hates Gays makes no sense........
If he made us all in his own image, then God is Gay and Straight and whatever other label you want to use because no matter what you believe, we are all one. There is only one root energy source and source of creation however you want to slice it up and argue about it.
frenchmon
10-01-2012, 08:57 AM
fable or literal..lol! Thanks for proving my point. I'll read your commentary on politics and audio RGA, but matters of the bible, I'll pass. Have a good day.
JohnMichael
10-01-2012, 10:36 AM
fable or literal..lol! Thanks for proving my point. I'll read your commentary on politics and audio RGA, but matters of the bible, I'll pass. Have a good day.
Remember christianity is only one of the world's religions. We also have the pagan beliefs. We have those with no beliefs and not one person can prove they have the true way. You only believe what your church teaches and many teachers have been wrong. Of course if it brings you comfort believe what you will.
The bible was written by man and often hundreds of years after the actual event. Did it literally rain for 40 days and 40 nights or just long enough to cover that are of the earth. Did god create the earth in 7 days or in an amount of time beyond our understanding that man called days. Did Jesus fast for 40 days or long enough to receive an answer? 7 and 40 are used throughout the bible symbolically and were never meant to be taken literally. To know the bible you need to know it's history and how it developed and became the book it is.
frenchmon
10-01-2012, 02:56 PM
Remember christianity is only one of the world's religions. We also have the pagan beliefs. We have those with no beliefs and not one person can prove they have the true way.
Affirmative JM, I can't prove to you the existence of God, and you can't prove to me He does not exist. Thats why its called faith.
You only believe what your church teaches and many teachers have been wrong. Of course if it brings you comfort believe what you will.
Wrong. I actually the church I attend believes things I don't believe. They have a host of doctrines I don't believe. I don't blindly believe stuff that people say ..christian or not.
The bible was written by man and often hundreds of years after the actual event.
Are you talking the entire bible, or certain books. Moses wrote most the Torah while he was alive.
Did it literally rain for 40 days and 40 nights or just long enough to cover that are of the earth.
Is that essential for salvation? If not it does not matter.
Did god create the earth in 7 days or in an amount of time beyond our understanding that man called days.
Is that essential for salvation? If not it does not matter if a believer believes it or not.
Did Jesus fast for 40 days or long enough to receive an answer? 7 and 40 are used throughout the bible symbolically and were never meant to be taken literally. To know the bible you need to know it's history and how it developed and became the book it is.
Again JM...a believer does not have to believe any of the above or even know about it....a believer is not required to know bible history...its not important at all. And your comments about bible history...I've studied Old Testament and New Testament biblical history....I especially love second temple Judaism. I find it fascinating.
frenchmon
10-01-2012, 03:01 PM
JM...kindly point out what I failed to answer.
Have I showed contempt for you? Been hostile towards you? I've known you where gay for years now and have never treated you indifferent have I ?
I have no problem with gays, but I'm curious now....what gives you the impression other wise to the point it saddens you?
Bump.
JohnMichael
10-01-2012, 03:17 PM
Bump.
Bump. You demand answers from me faster than you give them. I am finished here.
The problem with faith is that it leads to killing, intolerance and hate. The 9/11 bombers had faith - about as much faith as you could ever have if you're willing to strap a giant gas bomb onto your back and fly yourself into a building. The Westboro Baptist Church folks have plenty of faith too - so much so that they're willing to take on America's churches for not being faithful enough.
The onus is to prove a positive not a negative; therefore, the religious have to prove there is a God.
But science and the arts have disproven numerous religious teachings.
Earth is not the center of the universe (or flat)
Evolution is fact - creationism is bogus claptrap
Noah could not have put two of every animal on the boat
Dinosaurs did not live with man
Dinosaurs were real
The earth is billions of years old and not 6000 years old.
The sky God is illogical on numerous fronts but the "I want to believe in God and so should you because I believe" is dangerous. As you can see from all the people who take it too far "Westboo Baptist Church" types.
Let's start with the logic faults of any sky god. In every case they are said to be:
Omnipotent: All Powerful
Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge.
So this is God (or Q from Star Trek)
Free Will:
Galations 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
(Might be worthy to note at this point, that I discovered a contradiction in the bible while researching... see the galations 5 text above, and compare to Ephesians 1:11, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will". Which appears to be stating we don't have free will, but are bound by the "grand scheme" that god has put together.)
Omnipotence:
Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
Luke 1:37
For nothing is impossible with God.
Omniscience
Psalm 147:4-5
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Taking these scriptures into account, consider the following statements:
1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?
2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.
3) If god is all knowing, and all powerful, and the creator of all... than he must know who is doomed to hell before they are born. Knowing who is destined for hell, how can he offer a free pass to heaven by believing in Jesus? Surely he knew what you would decide before you were given the option. Therefore, choosing to believe or not to believe is not your choice, but is predestined before you were born. Your ticket has already been written, so don't sweat it... right?
4) If god knows who is doomed to hell before they are born and allows them to be created anyway, than he is sentencing people to eternal damnation for sins never committed... If people are born without their futures etched in stone, than god cannot see the future.
5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.
The conclusion of comparing these scriptures, versus some objective thinking leads to a number of conclusions:
1) God, bound by his own omniscience is completely powerless to do anything but watch events unfold.
2) Since I've established taking parts of the bible figuratively unravles the entire religion itself, the bible is not the true word of god, as god is perfect.
-or-
3) The Christian god can not exist the way he has been presented.
None of these conclusions look good for believers. It pretty much establishes that Christianity is wrong.
Don't feel left out quite yet mormons, jewish, muslim and hindus.... I hope to have enough time to take an objective look at your dogma and religious texts as well! Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all, page 1 (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread415055/pg1)
This is just one aspect as to why Sky Gods don't work. The reason they were "invented" to replace the Roman/Greek Gods is because people saw the logical problems. Gods are perfect infallible, omnipotent and omniscient but in those days Zeus would be mad at Aphrodite or Venus and one would tell the people to do This while the other God would tell them to do That. People figured out that if they were truly perfect they would always AGREE on everything because there would only be ever one correct course of action.
The lack of logic of the Greek Gods (and the fact that science told them things about their world) the realized that faith in this stuff was misplaced. The one God idea is "better" logically since there is one voice and "one" way - but as can be seen from the above it is impossible and thus PROVEN wrong that God could be Omnipotent or Omniscient - so if God is up there and you want to believe he she it is up there then you have to also believe he is fallible - which you're not allowed to believe. And if you believe in this in spite of the logical impossibility then I'm afraid you're a lune who should be in a rubber room. The fact that 80%+ of the population believes in this nutty stuff doesn't validate the point. Most people believe wrong stuff all the time - which is why Republicans get elected.
Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?
JohnMichael
10-02-2012, 03:10 AM
Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?
Yes they are and they protest other funerals.
Yes they are and they protest other funerals.
That surely helps to promote good will, love, tolerance, forgiveness, peace, understanding, acceptance.....oh wait, that sounds like they should be Christian.
markw
10-02-2012, 05:33 AM
The thinly veiled hate and jealousy is palpable on this site.
As I said in a post last year, someone always finds a way to turn any thread into a Christian bashing fest.
Thanks for proving me right, as usual.
Feanor
10-02-2012, 05:35 AM
"The problem with faith ..." The problem with it is that it doesn't demand empirical evidence or accept rational argument.
So, Richard, I suggest you & I give it a rest for now.
The thinly veiled hate and jealousy is palpable on this site.
As I said in a post last year, someone always finds a way to turn any thread into a Christian bashing fest.
Thanks for proving me right, as usual.
Wait, no prejudice here, we are bashing all religions just the same. But, only Christians are defending theirs.
"All religions are just different pathways to the same God"
Emanual Swedenborg
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 06:06 AM
Bump. You demand answers from me faster than you give them. I am finished here.
JM...im not perfect, and really don't see what the problem is in telling me what I missed seeing I dont know what I missed.....sorry.
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 06:09 AM
Are those Westboro bozos the ones that demonstrate at GI funerals saying that god is punishing them for gays in the military?
Yeah they are the ones....They are a perfect example of those who are following after a misguided pastor.
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 06:11 AM
That surely helps to promote good will, love, tolerance, forgiveness, peace, understanding, acceptance.....oh wait, that sounds like they should be Christian.
If you want to call them Christians, well make sure you call them misguided and extreme who take the bible out of context. There is no biblical bsis for what they are doing.
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 06:13 AM
Ok I'm done with this conversation...let get back to politics....I hope I have not lost a good friend in JM?
markw
10-02-2012, 06:19 AM
Wait, no prejudice here, we are bashing all religions just the same. But, only Christians are defending theirs.
"All religions are just different pathways to the same God"
Emanual SwedenborgWhat members of other religions post here?
I really gave you more credit that that. I guess I was wrong.
What members of other religions post here?
I really gave you more credit that that. I guess I was wrong.
Just being sarcastic about all this fun stuff, but I really don't need your credit.
I also have no idea what religions everyone that posts here are, and neither do you.
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 07:47 AM
The problem with faith is that it leads to killing, intolerance and hate. The 9/11 bombers had faith - about as much faith as you could ever have if you're willing to strap a giant gas bomb onto your back and fly yourself into a building. The Westboro Baptist Church folks have plenty of faith too - so much so that they're willing to take on America's churches for not being faithful enough.
Yeah, but faith in what is the question. Faith from a wrong foundation is misguided faith.
The onus is to prove a positive not a negative; therefore, the religious have to prove there is a God.
Prove it to who RCA?
But science and the arts have disproven numerous religious teachings..
Example please.
Earth is not the center of the universe (or flat)
Evolution is fact - creationism is bogus claptrap
Noah could not have put two of every animal on the boat
Dinosaurs did not live with man
Dinosaurs were real
The earth is billions of years old and not 6000 years old.
So tell me how they proved these wrong before I answer.
The sky God is illogical on numerous fronts but the "I want to believe in God and so should you because I believe" is dangerous. As you can see from all the people who take it too far "Westboo Baptist Church" types.
The Sky God? You lost me here. But again, why base all of christianity on what Westboo does or say?
Let's start with the logic faults of any sky god. In every case they are said to be:
Omnipotent: All Powerful
Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge.
So this is God (or Q from Star Trek)
What on earth are you talking about? What is a sky God?
Free Will:
Galations 5:13
You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.
(Might be worthy to note at this point, that I discovered a contradiction in the bible while researching... see the galations 5 text above, and compare to Ephesians 1:11, "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will". Which appears to be stating we don't have free will, but are bound by the "grand scheme" that god has put together.)
RGA....you have it wrong. You need to read in context. The author of Galatians is talking about Jewish converts and Gentiles believers who where deceived into going back to the old ways of the Mosaic law/Torah. Christ death freed Israel from the Torah, thus making no distinction in Jews and Gentiles. So they where totally free from the Mosaic law....and a new covenant was ushered in... It has nothing to do with the Ephesians passage which is stating that believers now have an inheritance in Christs according to the will of God, which has always been.
RGA, I think I will stop it there. I would like to see your response to the above before I continue on....if you care to continue on. Because I am sure you have taken everything else out of context as well.
Infact...if you want to continue this and not trash the intent of this thread any more, perhaps JM can move us to another section?
Frenchmon, if I may take a stab at one of your questions
Sky God
I would say he is talking about the God that Christians believe in where they see Him (never her) as an entity that sits on a throne in a make believe place called Heaven and wields his judgements on all of us sinners.
In reality, God is an energy source, the outcome or maybe even the cause of the big bang. Nobody will prove it one way or another in our lifetime or many to come.
The faith part comes in because people have Faith that the Sky God will Judge them justly and allow them into Heaven because they asked for forgiveness.
I don't buy into all of this and never really have. I do believe we are all spiritually connected by the energy I mentioned above. We are all one as well as everything around us. We are made from the same building blocks and atoms that were spewed out during the big bang.
I will not tell people that believing and having their faith is wrong, just not for me. What I do find odd is that as Christians get older and more scared as to afterlife, Heaven or Hell, they start trying to buy their way in to heaven.
I have spent many years going to different churches and reading many books and came up with something that works for me. I incorporate bits of all of them since for the most part, they are all after the same thing. What I do object to are the rituals and fluff that has nothing to do with being good to everyone around you and treating others the way you would like to be treated.
I try to live by a similar code as those preached by Jesus, and many others already said the same things before he was ever born, but without an Organized Religion to collect my money and give me false hopes.
Don't even get me started on Tithing and the way it is used to make you feel guilty.
JohnMichael
10-02-2012, 08:25 AM
I was asked by one member to close this thread. I am not sure that would be appropriate since I moved it into the Steel Cage. The member who started the thread was not the one asking for it to be closed. Remember you always have the choice not to participate. I would like to have ForeverAutumn and bobsticks opinion on this one.
I vote to shut it down only because it has become a circular jerk and in the end, there is no winner, right or wrong, or finite conclusions when it comes to religion and/or politics.
But, as you said, nobody is forced to read it or reply to it. But it is like a multi car pileup that you just have to keep staring at as you drive by slowly.
markw
10-02-2012, 09:03 AM
It shows the world what kind of people hang out here.
I'll bet it makes the management so proud to see their forum used tas a venue to spew hate..
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-02-2012, 09:30 AM
Yeah they are the ones....They are a perfect example of those who are following after a misguided pastor.
He is not their pastor, he is their father, grandfather and great grandfather. This is nothing more than a family and extended family. There are no members outside of this one family in the so called "church".
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-02-2012, 09:36 AM
Yeah, but faith in what is the question. Faith from a wrong foundation is misguided faith.
Prove it to who RCA?
Example please.
So tell me how they proved these wrong before I answer.
The Sky God? You lost me here. But again, why base all of christianity on what Westboo does or say?
What on earth are you talking about? What is a sky God?
RGA....you have it wrong. You need to read in context. The author of Galatians is talking about Jewish converts and Gentiles believers who where deceived into going back to the old ways of the Mosaic law/Torah. Christ death freed Israel from the Torah, thus making no distinction in Jews and Gentiles. So they where totally free from the Mosaic law....and a new covenant was ushered in... It has nothing to do with the Ephesians passage which is stating that believers now have an inheritance in Christs according to the will of God, which has always been.
RGA, I think I will stop it there. I would like to see your response to the above before I continue on....if you care to continue on. Because I am sure you have taken everything else out of context as well.
Infact...if you want to continue this and not trash the intent of this thread any more, perhaps JM can move us to another section?
Frenchy, you are casting pearls before a swine here. RGA does not like religion, does not believe in God, and takes 300,000 words to say what he can say in 10.
By continuing to engage with RGA, you just give him a full platform to post his ignorance and lack of comprehension regarding the Bible.
Personally, I think we should all eat Barbeque, drink beer, have a group hug, and sing kumbaya in four part harmony. Wait, RGA can't participate in that.......
It shows the world what kind of people hang out here.
.
You hang out here
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-02-2012, 09:57 AM
You hang out here
He doesn't hang out here, he spews up here.
He doesn't hang out here, he spews up here.
The main point is that he is no different than those he has accused of being a hater. Not even sure where that came from tho. RGA or others don't hate people because they believe differently, they just respectfully disagree and challenge them.
markw
10-02-2012, 10:20 AM
You hang out hereWhile I'll occasionally drop off some technical know-how, I much prefer to drop into the off topic forum to dump a baby-ruth in the pool. It's fun to tease the natives.
That's the only real action here. All the other forums here are generally just more of the same from the same misanthropic inbreds that post here. New blood goes running for the hills. ...and rightly so.
While I'll occasionally drop off some technical know-how, I much prefer to drop into the off topic forum to dump a baby-ruth in the pool.
That's pretty obvious
markw
10-02-2012, 10:40 AM
That's pretty obviousVirtually all other "real" audio forums have limits on what topics can be discussed and, if you've ever noticed, they generally have a healthy post count and new members come and go on a regular basis, not to mention no lack of advertisers. IOW, they run a class act and still manage to thrive and grow.
I remember in "the old days" when AR actually had a presence in the NY Hi-Fi shows. But, that's when this was a real site, not a sham that depends on potty talk and a refuge for a few malcontents who enjoy stroking each others egos.
I guess the management here is desperate to keep what they have and allow this trash-talk in order to not chase away the few people that still frequent here.
Wallow happily, my friends. When you wallow, think AR.
Virtually all other "real" audio forums have limits on what topics can be discussed and, if you've ever noticed, they generally have a healthy post count and new members come and go on a regular basis, not to mention no lack of advertisers. IOW, they run a class act and still manage to thrive and grow.
I remember in "the old days" when AR actually had a presence in the NY Hi-Fi shows. But, that's when this was a real site, not a sham that depends on potty talk and a refuge for a few malcontents who enjoy stroking each others egos.
I guess the management here is desperate to keep what they have and allow this trash-talk in order to not chase away the few people that still frequent here.
Wallow happily, my friends. When you wallow, think AR.
So why are you here? Don't you have a better place for all your input? If you are so disgruntled with this place, have your account deleted and go away, you won't be missed. Anyway, I can see your same old stuff on the other forums.
markw
10-02-2012, 11:04 AM
So why are you here? Don't you have a better place for all your input? If you are so disgruntled with this place, have your account deleted and go away, you won't be missed. Anyway, I can see your same old stuff on the other forums.Same as you others. I like to spew, too. This is my vent.
If you'll notice, my input here on 9/12 or so was fairly innocuous and was in keeping with the original subject.
You boys took it from there. Don't try to lay your off-topic shiite on me. I didn't direct the flow. Y'all did.
and, I do help those that I can on occasion .
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 11:06 AM
Frenchmon, if I may take a stab at one of your questions
Sky God
I would say he is talking about the God that Christians believe in where they see Him (never her) as an entity that sits on a throne in a make believe place called Heaven and wields his judgements on all of us sinners.
In reality, God is an energy source, the outcome or maybe even the cause of the big bang. Nobody will prove it one way or another in our lifetime or many to come.
The faith part comes in because people have Faith that the Sky God will Judge them justly and allow them into Heaven because they asked for forgiveness.
I don't buy into all of this and never really have. I do believe we are all spiritually connected by the energy I mentioned above. We are all one as well as everything around us. We are made from the same building blocks and atoms that were spewed out during the big bang.
I will not tell people that believing and having their faith is wrong, just not for me. What I do find odd is that as Christians get older and more scared as to afterlife, Heaven or Hell, they start trying to buy their way in to heaven.
I have spent many years going to different churches and reading many books and came up with something that works for me. I incorporate bits of all of them since for the most part, they are all after the same thing. What I do object to are the rituals and fluff that has nothing to do with being good to everyone around you and treating others the way you would like to be treated.
I try to live by a similar code as those preached by Jesus, and many others already said the same things before he was ever born, but without an Organized Religion to collect my money and give me false hopes.
Don't even get me started on Tithing and the way it is used to make you feel guilty.
nice post Hyfi...and yeah, tithing went out with the old covenant.
frenchmon
10-02-2012, 11:14 AM
Frenchy, you are casting pearls before a swine here. RGA does not like religion, does not believe in God, and takes 300,000 words to say what he can say in 10.
By continuing to engage with RGA, you just give him a full platform to post his ignorance and lack of comprehension regarding the Bible.
Personally, I think we should all eat Barbeque, drink beer, have a group hug, and sing kumbaya in four part harmony. Wait, RGA can't participate in that.......
Yeah....I believe you are correct here....I will stop here....lets get this thread back to politics.....But Hyfi is correct...you sort of slow down and take a look. Rubber necking.
I'll be the first to admit that I am not as up on the Bible as some but that's like saying I'm not as up on Lord of the Rings novels or Beowulf as some English professors. Since none of the three should be used as "evidence" or "proof" of anything it isn't really in play. Others such as Richard Dawkins grew up Catholic, know the Bible as well as it can be known is smarter than everyone on this board and is much better at ripping down this dumb religion from Bible verse than I.
If you don't know what the term Sky God means read some books. If you believe the earth is 6000 years old and want proof otherwise - read some science books. If you want to know that evolution is in fact a FACT read some science books not religious crazies who don't understand what evolution actually is - we don't come from monkeys - now you do some reading, Start with the God Delusion since it's written for the Layman and is about as spoon-fed as it gets although some find Dawkins a little insulting but if you set that aside and it's not a sin to "just read" a book that questions "God" then that's the place to start.
I am not anti-most people who believe by the way - I don't care that someone is religious - I have Mormon and Pastor friends but where the problem lies is in the belief running their life such that it ends up running mine and other non believers.
I am sure most Christians would not like their life run by Muslim doctrines in any way shape or form. When Bush attacks Iraq because "God told him to" that affects the entire country. Granted he may have just used that wording as propaganda to get Christian right on his side but still - it got some on his side or he would not have bothered to say it. That act affected the entire economy and killed lots of innocent people. And it affected more countries than just the USA and Iraq.
And that's the problem. The average Joe Christian frankly no one cares if you believe in God - believe away. Perfectly harmless upstanding individuals and if faith makes you happy and/or keeps you from committing crimes (as it does for some) then more power to the belief (yes I believe it is good for numerous people).
Even chucking science under the bus for the average person isn't a real problem but again it is a real problem when it affects me. Teaching intelligent design in Science class as a legit "theory" or not teaching evolution is hugely problematic. You want to Intelligent Design have it taught at Sunday School - leave science the hell alone.
Sir T
I find your form of intellectual dishonesty head scratching. You present intellectual ideas you have some understanding of the notion of test the beliefs of others. When someone says vinyl is better than CD you, more than most, took what they said and explored the technology and the lack of evidence and said technically CD should be superior to vinyl. You even went one further than that and actually auditioned the master tape, CD, and a vinyl pressing.
Then you chuck out your brain out the window researching the utter idiocy and illogic of "faith." Something which one bases their entire life and world view on is slightly more important than whether CD is better that vinyl.
And that's the problem with the word "faith"
There would be no problems if the word faith meant faith - but Christians and other religious followers don't see a difference between "Faith and Fact" To them faith is a fact. There is 100% a GOD who listens to them, there is 100% some sort of hell, there is 100% a heaven that only believers get to go to.
When one believes so strongly and adamantly that this "faith" is a fact then you get the likes of Westboro.
Of course 90% of Christians are not that adamant or extreme but it certainly is the case that most Christians are anti-gay, vote republican, and believe that RGA is going to hell for being Atheist. I am therefore "other" and "worse" than they merely because I don't believe. Now in everyday normal 2012 life this doesn't matter but it doesn't take much for the winds to change and I find myself in a concentration camp. And history is littered with the "other" being segregated for such things. The 90% follow the herd and certainly are not at the forefront of stopping gay bashing, or intelligent design in schools, or stem cell research etc. That passivity is a form of support.
Hold your "Sky God" (one God) to the standards of basic logic, sciences and reason. The wishful thinking "I hope there is a God" doesn't make it so. I have that wishful thinking too by the way - I would love for there to be a God. He sure goes out of His way for rational people NOT to believe.
frenchmon
10-03-2012, 01:05 AM
RGA....i wont say much and this is my last response to these religious postings. You have mentioned on more than one occasion the age of the universe. The bible says God created it all in 6 days. Modern scientist say according to their testing it is millions and perhaps billions of years old.Who is correct? Man or ancient manuscripts? Let me ask you a question if I may? The bible says God created Adam the first man. How old was he? You see my point? It doesn't seem as if Adam was an infant at creation. With the responsibilities God gave him, it would seem Adam had to be created as an adult....certainly he was not a child with a woman running around without clothing and after the fall told to populate the earth. So my point.....The universe, created in 6 days, could have been created with age....millions or billions of years old at creation...and if that is so, or a possibility, no matter what age it has, or is, surely it did not just magically appear out of some gas that was just floating around in spce by itself and then just decided to explode into what we all see and enjoy today....something out of nothing. No....it had to have all been placed there by an ultimate designer. The gas floating around, the explosion, the universe, the animals and mankind....it all had to come from something, its called cause and effect.....it all points to an intelligent designer......and have you ever wondered where the space that contained the gas and all that came forth out of it, came from? It too had to be put there. I know who put it there....do you? Look at your hands....your feet....think about your heart inside your chest and how it works....how the sun comes up and warms the earth, or the rain and how it washes the earth, or the tree that grows oranges that taste so sweet. You think that all happened by chance? I dont see how it could have....its takes more faith to believe in chance than it does in a n Intelligent Designer. ..and the proof is right there before you in your science, but you refuse to see it. Well I wont. I am not saying you have to believe in the God of the bible, but to say its all just chance is putting your head in the sand my friend.
No need to respond....I am truly done. I will see you when you write some of those wonderful postings about audio...they stimulate my thinking, unlike your postings on faith, science and the bible.
You know, there have been great points on both sides of this discussion here and it didn't really get that ugly. From the believer's point of view, faith only counts when it comes to religion, anything else that one knows can be proven is tested. Faith in religion cannot be tested and proven in any way.
Just a breif response to a few points in Frenchmon's last post.
It was ALL written in correspondences.
6 days did not mean 6 24 hour cycles as we now call a day. Would I believe Man or Ancient Manuscripts? Knowing that most of what was written back then was 3rd hand babblings and again can never be proven to be true, I would trust what science has discovered about the overall universe right now but still leave open the idea that the energy started somewhere but not how most religions want me to think. God did not just create the earth as a 6 billion year old baby while the rest of the universe expanded from a central location 6 billion years ago.
Adam was not an individual but a representation of the Human race. Since they didn't care much for womens rights, and many fanatics still don't, they mentioned Eve as an afterthought to represent the female of the Human race. It was never about 2 distinct individuals that Focked like rabbits to create the start of the billions now here on earth.
Here is a good question. Why do the majority of Christians label Swedenborg as a nut job because he claimed to speak to angels, but they believe that God opened the heavens and talked ONLY to Moses alone at the top of a mountain and spit out the 10 commandments. What would be the difference if you claim it's all about faith?
Or is it Selective Faith?
frenchmon
10-03-2012, 06:30 AM
You know, there have been great points on both sides of this discussion here and it didn't really get that ugly. From the believer's point of view, faith only counts when it comes to religion, anything else that one knows can be proven is tested. Faith in religion cannot be tested and proven in any way.
Just a breif response to a few points in Frenchmon's last post.
It was ALL written in correspondences.
6 days did not mean 6 24 hour cycles as we now call a day. Would I believe Man or Ancient Manuscripts? Knowing that most of what was written back then was 3rd hand babblings and again can never be proven to be true, I would trust what science has discovered about the overall universe right now but still leave open the idea that the energy started somewhere but not how most religions want me to think. God did not just create the earth as a 6 billion year old baby while the rest of the universe expanded from a central location 6 billion years ago.
Adam was not an individual but a representation of the Human race. Since they didn't care much for womens rights, and many fanatics still don't, they mentioned Eve as an afterthought to represent the female of the Human race. It was never about 2 distinct individuals that Focked like rabbits to create the start of the billions now here on earth.
Here is a good question. Why do the majority of Christians label Swedenborg as a nut job because he claimed to speak to angels, but they believe that God opened the heavens and talked ONLY to Moses alone at the top of a mountain and spit out the 10 commandments. What would be the difference if you claim it's all about faith?
Or is it Selective Faith?
Should I respond to this Hyfi? Or just leave it as is?
Should I respond to this Hyfi? Or just leave it as is?
You said you were done. We can leave it at that or we can continue to have a nice theological conversation where nobodies feelings get hurt and we all agree to disagree politely.
If you would like to get a different perspective and logical interpretation of the first several books of the bible, that can then be applied elsewhere when similar passages (correspondences) are used, please give some of this a read. It changed my way of reading the bible and my understanding of what they were trying to say within it.
After reading all of this, which I did but fell asleep 2700 times, watch What Dreams May Come and you will see and get all the references they used from some of this text along with his book titled Heaven and Hell.
Arcana Coelestia Index (http://www.sacred-texts.com/swd/ac/index.htm)
Feanor
10-03-2012, 07:41 AM
RGA....i wont say much and this is my last response to these religious postings. You have mentioned on more than one occasion the age of the universe. The bible says God created it all in 6 days. Modern scientist say according to their testing it is millions and perhaps billions of years old.Who is correct? Man or ancient manuscripts? Let me ask you a question if I may? The bible says God created Adam the first man. How old was he? You see my point? It doesn't seem as if Adam was an infant at creation. With the responsibilities God gave him, it would seem Adam had to be created as an adult....certainly he was not a child with a woman running around without clothing and after the fall told to populate the earth. So my point.....The universe, created in 6 days, could have been created with age....millions or billions of years old at creation...and if that is so, or a possibility, no matter what age it has, or is, surely it did not just magically appear out of some gas that was just floating around in spce by itself and then just decided to explode into what we all see and enjoy today....something out of nothing. No....it had to have all been placed there by an ultimate designer. The gas floating around, the explosion, the universe, the animals and mankind....it all had to come from something, its called cause and effect.....it all points to an intelligent designer......and have you ever wondered where the space that contained the gas and all that came forth out of it, came from? It too had to be put there. I know who put it there....do you? Look at your hands....your feet....think about your heart inside your chest and how it works....how the sun comes up and warms the earth, or the rain and how it washes the earth, or the tree that grows oranges that taste so sweet. You think that all happened by chance? I dont see how it could have....its takes more faith to believe in chance than it does in a n Intelligent Designer. ..and the proof is right there before you in your science, but you refuse to see it. Well I wont. I am not saying you have to believe in the God of the bible, but to say its all just chance is putting your head in the sand my friend.
No need to respond....I am truly done. I will see you when you write some of those wonderful postings about audio...they stimulate my thinking, unlike your postings on faith, science and the bible.
The wonders of the human body, etc., came about isn't resolved by insisting that God or some other "intelligent designer" created them. And that's because of the old, reductive logic: who created the God or the intelligent designer? One cannot respond the God or the designer always existed, because if she or he always existed, then why not the universe itself and its laws?
There is no issue of higher life forms coming about "by chance". It wasn't by chance: evolution is a process that follows its own logical rules, and though chance plays a part, it's only a part of the process
JohnMichael
10-03-2012, 08:18 AM
I find it interesting that humans as they evolve created new gods as they better understood their world. Humans did not understand thunder so let us have a god of thunder. I am sure Egyptians, Romans and Greeks would have felt as strongly about their gods. In mythology a god would impregnate a mortal woman to create a demi-god. Does that sound familiar. As we continue to learn and discover many are leaving churches.
frenchmon
10-03-2012, 08:47 AM
Hyfi.....I just cant stop rubber necking! im done....I will check out the link, but im done for real this time....no more rubber necking
Hyfi.....I just cant stop rubber necking! im done....I will check out the link, but im done for real this time....no more rubber necking
Talk to me off line after reading some of it.
Virtually all other "real" audio forums have limits on what topics can be discussed and, if you've ever noticed, they generally have a healthy post count and new members come and go on a regular basis, not to mention no lack of advertisers. IOW, they run a class act and still manage to thrive and grow.
I remember in "the old days" when AR actually had a presence in the NY Hi-Fi shows. But, that's when this was a real site, not a sham that depends on potty talk and a refuge for a few malcontents who enjoy stroking each others egos.
I guess the management here is desperate to keep what they have and allow this trash-talk in order to not chase away the few people that still frequent here.
Wallow happily, my friends. When you wallow, think AR.
I've been posting on AR since 1998. And this site ell off the map when they shut down free speech - at it's height this forum was a barrage of cable debates and DBT discussions. When they stopped allowing that discussion every poster in the DBT camp with the exception of PatD left. And PatD barely posts here.
This forum has started to regain that as I think they allow DBT discussions somewhat - unlike AA where it has to be put in a special forum.
This is an Off Topic forum and now in the Steel Cage. Audio Asylum has similar forums - Water Cooler, Cable debates, religious and political discussions which are far far more heated than the tame stuff here.
And like they say you can always vote with your feet - you don't like something don't buy it, don't like a forum don't visit it.
Frenchmon
Every question you just asked me is FULLY answered in Richard Dawkins "God Delusion"
Yes a God day could be a billion years but follow the basic logic.
A Religious person: How could the universe begin from nothing?
B - Scientist: That assumes it came from nothing and there is nothing in evidence to make that assumption. If it did come from nothing the odds of it coming from nothing are very low indeed.
A: So there must have been a creator
B: The odds of a Universe coming from nothing is very low - the odds of a "Creator" powerful enough to create everything who is omnipotent and omniscient coming from nothing is orders of magnitude LESS likely. After all if you say the Universe could not just pop into existence then why could a creator of said universe just pop into existence from nothing?
A: look how beautiful everything is it must have been designed.
B: if a designer were "Perfect" then everything He creates would also be perfect. Perfection can't create imperfection because that would mean God is imperfect. Everything on earth is imperfect. Evolution is a better theory as there is evidence that creatures have improved over time to adapt to their environments and needs. The human eye is not very good - but it's good enough for the purpose of the hhuman animal to survive - it would not however be very good for an Owl which is why an Owl has a completely different kind of eye.
The human eye is an example of BAD Design which means that if there was a God he was an ATROCIOUS engineer. No human if he had absolute power would design such a useless device.
Intelligent Design (2): The Human Eye - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZkPAanGXsc)
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-03-2012, 05:49 PM
Sir T
I find your form of intellectual dishonesty head scratching. You present intellectual ideas you have some understanding of the notion of test the beliefs of others. When someone says vinyl is better than CD you, more than most, took what they said and explored the technology and the lack of evidence and said technically CD should be superior to vinyl. You even went one further than that and actually auditioned the master tape, CD, and a vinyl pressing.
Then you chuck out your brain out the window researching the utter idiocy and illogic of "faith." Something which one bases their entire life and world view on is slightly more important than whether CD is better that vinyl.
And that's the problem with the word "faith"
There would be no problems if the word faith meant faith - but Christians and other religious followers don't see a difference between "Faith and Fact" To them faith is a fact. There is 100% a GOD who listens to them, there is 100% some sort of hell, there is 100% a heaven that only believers get to go to.
When one believes so strongly and adamantly that this "faith" is a fact then you get the likes of Westboro.
Of course 90% of Christians are not that adamant or extreme but it certainly is the case that most Christians are anti-gay, vote republican, and believe that RGA is going to hell for being Atheist. I am therefore "other" and "worse" than they merely because I don't believe. Now in everyday normal 2012 life this doesn't matter but it doesn't take much for the winds to change and I find myself in a concentration camp. And history is littered with the "other" being segregated for such things. The 90% follow the herd and certainly are not at the forefront of stopping gay bashing, or intelligent design in schools, or stem cell research etc. That passivity is a form of support.
Hold your "Sky God" (one God) to the standards of basic logic, sciences and reason. The wishful thinking "I hope there is a God" doesn't make it so. I have that wishful thinking too by the way - I would love for there to be a God. He sure goes out of His way for rational people NOT to believe.
RG=Regurgitated
A=out of the A$$
This is what I think of this illogical twisted pile of BS.
You have firmly established you don't believe in God. Walk away now as you are not going to convince me or anyone to give up their faith. A CD and vinyl disc can be tested against a master. You cannot test faith - either you have it, or you don't.
I made my comment to Frenchmon because I cannot see any benefit in explaining Biblical faith to a agnostic or an atheist. It is a complete waste of time.
Twisted - explain the logical faults - calling it BS is your usual history whenever something doesn't fit your belief you resort to name calling and belittling. This tells me you have no solid footing and you clearly have none here.
You don't want to use your science training (engineers of course are merely the Oompa Loompa's of science so I kind of cut them slack) but to say you can't test it is intellectual dishonesty. No you can't prove/disprove God but the onus of proof is on the person making the claim - and unless you turn your brain off you KNOW THIS IS TRUE - calling it BS makes you look like a tool.
And you also KNOW but ignore that you most certainly can test "the Sky God" premise with first year basic logic courses which you must have taken to have an engineering degree - unless universities in the U.S. are so bankrupt they too have succumb to the religious right and don't make it mandatory. That basic logic and main point of my previous post which Frenchmon ignored, to blather on about his disagreement over Bible interpretation, didn't surprise me. He didn't want to go anywhere near the God is omnipotent or omniscient arguments and neither do you.
Regurgitated - I love that. 2+2=4 is a regurgitated question and answer found in numerous Grade 1 classrooms. Yes it is a regurgitated teaching - it also happens to be FACT.
Rather than address the issues of basic logic/paradox you resort to name calling - your faith is so fragile that you can actually look into it and say "gee this doesn't make the least bit of sense" maybe I should consider the possibility that at some point I was brainwashed. Most 5 year olds believe in Santa and then eventually have a chuckle that everyone fooled you - teachers, parents, siblings, and friends. You had no reason to distrust them so most people TRULY believe in him and even write letters and put out cookies. You get up and the cookies and milk are half eaten - every fiber in your being believes fully in this tale because everyone in your life reinforces it over and over and over. People you trust immensely - so of course you believe. Then one day a friend at school perhaps will let you in on the joke. "there's no Santa" - the child STILL believes until they confront their parents or teacher. Some kids cry.
Well I'm you're little school friend telling you that you've been had but unfortunately no one told the priest or your parents.
There are several avenues to test whether there is an "omnipotent and omniscient God " and those tests "knock down" the possibility and from several sciences/disciplines not just Biology. Dawkins makes several correct cases that destroy the notion of the creation of man - and it's irrefutable. And if the ship is still barely afloat Physics and Geology put a few more torpedoes into the ship - and if it still hanging on - Philosophy comes in with an A-bomb air strike to finish it off.
Dawkins is an easy read - pretty much spells it out as easy as it can get - You should be an Atheist by the time you get to chapter 4. Not an Agnostic an Atheist - Agnostics just want to cover their ass. Although plenty of Christians on boards have told me that "I should believe because what have I got to lose" or "if you don't believe what's to stop you from doing evil things like rape and murder." Really - the only thing stopping them from killing and raping is believing in God. In that case please believe away - if that's the kind of person you are at your core then please believe in God and don't kill people. And of course just "saying" you believe in God to cover your butt - pretty sure if there was a God he'd know you were just covering your butt. Don't think you can fake God out. And he might be three times more angry if you try than say "gee God I was wrong I didn't believe in you - why did you make me an Atheist?
This is something like a 3 minute read and should raise enough alarm bells to make objective minds seriously doubt any of the Sky God teachings.
God the all-powerful: The Paradox of Omnipotence (http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/The-Paradox-of-Omnipotence)
Here are a few questions that have always baffled me.
Were Adam and Eve the very first humans on the planet?
Who nurtured them from childbirth? (placed on the earth at just the right age to conceive?)
If Adam and Eve were the first by any stretch, then ALL of their children had incestuous relationships to pro-create, and then all of their children and so on up to the present day. If that were all supposed to be read literally, and we blindly agree to ignore the fact that we are all inbreeds due to the first families incestuous behavior, then why do we not all have the same DNA?
Science has already proved that there were several waves of humans that did not all share the same DNA. Is science wrong?
So if that story, logically and intellectually just cannot be true as interpreted literally, than how can any other part be?
So the believers say "you believe or you don't, all or nothing" and I ask, if we have to question this part from the very beginning of the story, how can we not question all of it?
So anyone, please enlighten me as to how we are all direct descendants of Adam and Eve, if they were not just representations of the whole of Man and Woman, the Human Race, but don't have matching DNA and all of the horrific abnormalities that we should have after 2000 years of inbreeding and incestuous relationships?
Feanor
10-04-2012, 04:32 AM
Sir T has nailed it, RGA. You simply aren't going to dissuade people from religious believe by logical argument -- he's also correct that it's pointless to explain Biblical faith to non-believers like you and me: we're past that.
I had a religious upbringing; but I call doubts from the early age when my mother, (a religious person all her life), admitted the Santa Claus didn't actually continued to insist that God does.
I read The God Delusion only about 3-4 years ago, but all of Dawkins' arguments had occurred to me decades earlier, (though Dawkins is more articulate than I could be). He was preaching to the converted, (to use a religious analogy :) )
BTW, I agree with Dawkins on the agnostic vs. atheist distinction. This is like ...
I ought to call myself an agnostic; but, for all practical purposes, I am an atheist. I do not think the existence of the Christian God any more probable than the existence of the Gods of Olympus or Valhalla. To take another illustration: nobody can prove that there is not between the Earth and Mars a china teapot revolving in an elliptical orbit, but nobody thinks this sufficiently likely to be taken into account in practice. I think the Christian God just as unlikely.
I'm tending to call myself a "non-believer" these days since it easier than getting into arguments about whether Atheism is, itself, a faith.
Look up "Russell's Cosmic Teapot" ... Let me Google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Russell%27s+teapot&l=1).
http://theosophical.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/russells-orbitting-teapot.jpg?w=510
markw
10-04-2012, 04:47 AM
I've been posting on AR since 1998. And this site ell off the map when they shut down free speech - at it's height this forum was a barrage of cable debates and DBT discussions. When they stopped allowing that discussion every poster in the DBT camp with the exception of PatD left. And PatD barely posts here.
This forum has started to regain that as I think they allow DBT discussions somewhat - unlike AA where it has to be put in a special forum.
This is an Off Topic forum and now in the Steel Cage. Audio Asylum has similar forums - Water Cooler, Cable debates, religious and political discussions which are far far more heated than the tame stuff here.
And like they say you can always vote with your feet - you don't like something don't buy it, don't like a forum don't visit it.This forum never did fully rebound and, it did hang on for a few years before rigor mortis set in.
Look at the main page. Hoe many new posts? How many not from the usual handful of regulars?
No, the only action here is in this wretched forum where bashing people with any beliefs is sport for a few nihilistic regulars who apparently have nothing else to look forward to. ..including one hypocrite who is proud of his family's starting a cult of their own.
This forum never did fully rebound and, it did hang on for a few years before rigor mortis set in.
This place died the day they downgraded to vBulletin software and has only died more since.
Was the bashing that myself and others got continually from Mtrycraft and his band of merry DBTers because I can hear differences in certain cables acceptable bashing to you? Sounds like Selective Bashing is OK as long as Religion is left out.
markw
10-04-2012, 06:38 AM
This place died the day they downgraded to vBulletin software and has only died more since.
Was the bashing that myself and others got continually from Mtrycraft and his band of merry DBTers because I can hear differences in certain cables acceptable bashing to you? Sounds like Selective Bashing is OK as long as Religion is left out.C'mon now. You know changing the platform bad no bearing on the decline of this site. The direction of it did.
Cables are audio related. Religion is not
Besides, measurable and audible differences can be scientifically proven or disproven. It's just that when the purported differences disappear like morning dew in the early morning sun when put to the test that the loudest supporters cried foul. The hard-headed cable nuts left for other sites and only the dregs remained here.
Religion, however, cannot. That relies purely on faith so, without the DBT'ers to rag on, they moved more towards politics and religion in order to vent their hatred..
You digress from my premise, but thanks for proving my point ...again.
It's tragic when a so-called audio site has sunk to the point where it has to stoop to religion bashing to draw posters, isn't it?
Mark, you seem to be the main one with a problem yet you just keep coming back. Why not just go and be done with it? I would say you enjoy it or you would just ignore the thread and move on.
markw
10-04-2012, 06:54 AM
Mark, you seem to be the main one with a problem yet you just keep coming back. Why not just go and be done with it? I would say you enjoy it or you would just ignore the thread and move on.As much as y'all love freely screwing with believers, I enjoy being the sand in your vaseline.
Remember, my post on the 9/11 Libya bombings mentioned nothing about religion. Y'all threw that ball into the arena and gleefully started kicking it around all by yourselves.
I just provide commentary on what kind of people people you are. You should be proud of yourselves.
Oh, I misspoke earlier. Not everyone who remained here are "dregs".Just those that create or enjoy posting in most of the angst ridden threads in this particular forum. My apologies to those that read these e threads with their face placed firmly in the palm of their hand while shaking their heads.
What is wrong with questioning things? I'm really not sure who you are referring to as bashing religion. I have kept my entries pretty civil and for the most part just questioning illogical thinking and why it is ok to have selective faith along with asking for an explanation to things in the bible that the believers say must be read and taken literally and not as correspondences.
Since you are so enlightened, why don't you take a stab at explaining the validity of the Adam and Eve story? Or are you ok with being an incestuous in-bread as the story implies we all are?
JohnMichael
10-04-2012, 07:28 AM
Why is anyone surprised that politics turns into religion. It is only a reflection of what is happening on the National Stage. We have one party that wants abortion banned due to their religious beliefs. As a member of the other party we are often called godless. In the fight for marriage equality which is a legal contract between two loving adults again you find religion trying to interfere with the rights of some.
I see the Country as more of a business and not where I would go for moral guidance. I do not want a country that does immoral things but it has gone to war needlessly, allowed torture and talk of removing safety nets for the elderly and poor. Talking about religion does not make one a good person and not believing does not make one a good person.
markw
10-04-2012, 07:48 AM
What is wrong with questioning things? I'm really not sure who you are referring to as bashing religion. I have kept my entries pretty civil and for the most part just questioning illogical thinking and why it is ok to have selective faith along with asking for an explanation to things in the bible that the believers say must be read and taken literally and not as correspondences.
Since you are so enlightened, why don't you take a stab at explaining the validity of the Adam and Eve story? Or are you ok with being an incestuous in-bread as the story implies we all are?Get back to me when you explain the validity of your grandfather talking to angels.
For you to jump, both feet first, into the religion bashing dog-pile, and then trying to deny it, is perhaps the most hypocritical thing I think I've ever seen. ...from several angles.
BTW, the word you want is "in-bred". In-bread is like the raisins in raisin bread.
Why is anyone surprised that politics turns into religion. It is only a reflection of what is happening on the National Stage. We have one party that wants abortion banned due to their religious beliefs. As a member of the other party we are often called godless. In the fight for marriage equality which is a legal contract between two loving adults again you find religion trying to interfere with the rights of some.
I see the Country as more of a business and not where I would go for moral guidance. I do not want a country that does immoral things but it has gone to war needlessly, allowed torture and talk of removing safety nets for the elderly and poor. Talking about religion does not make one a good person and not believing does not make one a good person.
I have always maintained that ones Politics IS their Religious Belief and ones Religious Beliefs create their Political choices and decisions.
Why else would every political position and race and supreme court nominee be judged almost solely on whether that person believes in Abortion, Gay Rights or anything else that is more of a Religious Belief than having anything to do with Politics?
dean_martin
10-04-2012, 08:34 AM
Oh, I misspoke earlier. Not everyone who remained here are "dregs".
Regardless of whether you had anyone in particular in mind, thank you for that acknowledgment.
I've checked your system and interests in your link. I haven't updated my system description in a while despite aquiring a new turntable. I'd like to hear more about whether you still use your cassette player, what kind of sound reinforcement equipment (pro audio) you have expereince with, if any, like microphones, pro speakers, pro amps and mixers and whether you set up systems capable of live recordings. But all those subjects are for other threads that never seem to materialize.
frenchmon
10-04-2012, 08:45 AM
What in the Hell was wrong with Obama last night!!!!
Get back to me when you explain the validity of your grandfather talking to angels.
.
LOL, my Grandfather
Again, you only have selective Faith.
If you believe Moses talked to god because someone wrote it in a story book, then how could you even question that someone talked to angels?
Get back to me when you have actually read some of Swedenborg's writings. The Swedenborg religion, part of Christianity, was started long after he died but because his writings and teachings make sense, he obviously had many followers.
And all the while you are singling me out for bashing, I am promoting Swedenborg, a Christian religion.
markw
10-04-2012, 09:16 AM
LOL, my Grandfather
Again, you only have selective Faith.
If you believe Moses talked to god because someone wrote it in a story book, then how could you even question that someone talked to angels?
Get back to me when you have actually read some of Swedenborg's writings. The Swedenborg religion, part of Christianity, was started long after he died but because his writings and teachings make sense, he obviously had many followersWell, Moses had a heckuva lot of followers who persist to this day. Scientology has followers, too. As for Swedborg, talk to me in a few thousand years.
And all the while you are singling me out for bashing, I am promoting Swedenborg, a Christian religion....and yet you happily mock others. riiiiiiight.
Well, Moses had a heckuva lot of followers who persist to this day. Scientology has followers, too. As for Swedborg, talk to me in a few thousand years.
...and yet you happily mock others. riiiiiiight.
Since you are so quick to give out spelling lessons while happily mocking others for spelling and grammar, try checking yourself for obvious mistakes.
markw
10-04-2012, 09:46 AM
Since you are so quick to give out spelling lessons while happily mocking others for spelling and grammar, try checking yourself for obvious mistakes.What makes you think that was a mistake? :D
What makes you think that was a mistake? :D
Nice try, inbred!
markw
10-04-2012, 10:07 AM
Nice try, inbred!Class act you've got there. Betcha grandpa's proud of you here.
Class act you've got there. Betcha grandpa's proud of you here.
Not sure why you take offense since you agree with it. If you believe the story, you identify with the facts they create. If the whole human race was created by two individuals, we are all inbreds now aren't we?
markw
10-04-2012, 10:20 AM
Not sure why you take offense since you agree with it. If you believe the story, you identify with the facts they create. If the whole human race was created by two individuals, we are all inbreds now aren't we?If you think anyone is dumb enough to believe that, then you've only kidding yourself.
You crack on other religion is the get all nasty personal when a little misspelling is done on your obscure cult. ..and then you try to alibi your way out of it.
Yeah, grandpappy's real proud of you, boy.
If you think anyone is dumb enough to believe that, then you've only kidding yourself.
You crack on other religion is the get all nasty personal when a little misspelling is done on your obscure cult. ..and then you try to alibi your way out of it.
Yeah, grandpappy's real proud of you, boy.
Not sure why you keep trying to insult my family. I never knew my Grandfather, he died when I was a baby.
Now as far as believing the Bible, you either believe it or you don''t remember? All or nothing. You cannot take one passage literally and question others.
And if you're telling me I have it all wrong, then be so kind as to explain it to me instead of continuing a thread that you are the only one complaining about the content.
Swedenborg is far from an obscure cult. Look for info on what is called the New Church. Stop by Bryn Athyns PA and see the beautiful true Gothic Cathederal. Meet some of the people who actually practice what they preach unlike most Catholics treat people as they leave church on Sunday morning. Peace be with you, not get the hell out of my way!
Just so happens that I grew up with a family whose Grandfather came to the US, Philadelphia to be exact and started the first Swedenborg church in the US. They are everywhere now.
I do not belong to any organized religion but if I was forced to associate myself with one, it would be Swedenborg because his writings, teachings, and interpretation of the Bible make more sense than "Just Believe it and don't ask questions"
frenchmon
10-04-2012, 10:48 AM
I SAID>>>>>> What was wrong with Obama last night!!!
YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY!!!!!!
markw
10-04-2012, 10:50 AM
Good for you! That way you do'nt have anyting to live up to except what you feel is right. That' convenient since you can change your expectations based on your needs at that moment.
As for you trying to tell me how I interpert my religion, that just shows what an ass you are. You like to put words in my mouth in order to create straw-man arguments. That's quite a simplistic way of making a point, doncha thinkt? But, that's quite common here I've noticed.
Remember, that church you hold up wouldn't be an issue if you didn't wrap yourself in it's flag whenever you think it might help make a point.
Your grandpappy might have had a decent idea but you, obviously, chose to ignore it and go your own way as suits you. That's exactly what westboro does.
...not to mention that it doesn't cost you a penny. That wonderful church you proudly point to didn't drop out of the sky. Believers built it with their hard-earned dollars. You had nothing to do with it aside from the chance of genetics. Pointing to it simply shows your hypocracy.
JohnMichael
10-04-2012, 04:35 PM
I have been asked to close this thread and to open it. Calling each other inbred I thought was over the top for the Steel Cage. There are still rules in the Cage. Have at it.
Sir T has nailed it, RGA. You simply aren't going to dissuade people from religious believe by logical argument -- he's also correct that it's pointless to explain Biblical faith to non-believers like you and me: we're past that.
I had a religious upbringing; but I call doubts from the early age when my mother, (a religious person all her life), admitted the Santa Claus didn't actually continued to insist that God does.
I read The God Delusion only about 3-4 years ago, but all of Dawkins' arguments had occurred to me decades earlier, (though Dawkins is more articulate than I could be). He was preaching to the converted, (to use a religious analogy :) )
BTW, I agree with Dawkins on the agnostic vs. atheist distinction. This is like ...
I'm tending to call myself a "non-believer" these days since it easier than getting into arguments about whether Atheism is, itself, a faith.
Look up "Russell's Cosmic Teapot" ... Let me Google that for you (http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Russell%27s+teapot&l=1).
http://theosophical.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/russells-orbitting-teapot.jpg?w=510
I believe people who can reason and think logically and put their faith to the fire can in fact be dissuaded - otherwise I would not bother posting. I've met several Catholic/Christians over the years who changed views in their 30s and 40s which is quite a long held belief system. It's easy to drop Santa when your 7. It's much harder to drop the Big Santa when you're 40.
Further a great many people go from fanatical belief to the millions and millions who call themselves Christian but are kind of "Liberal Christian" who still vote for Obama. If you're willing to vote for a party that is for stem cell research, women's body is her choice, and has generally adopted the 21st century mentality and science then you're already what I would call a "soft Christian." Sure you believe in God and Jesus and the fairy tale but in the "be kind to your fellow man" and "making society better makes your life better (oh no borderline socialism) too. In other words even though I don't believe in the book these are the people who interpreted the message properly. The other "Greed is Good" Gordon Gecko cruelty bits seem to be the current (not the past) Republican platform. Pretty Sure if Jesus was around he would not deny you medical and then take your house as payment for saving your life. Pretty sure Jesus would ask the town to pitch in a certain percent of their yearly wage to help save people. Jesus would not be a complete money grubbing prick. Apparently Republican voters view Jesus as someone who, if around today, would be a CEO of an HMO heavy on the denial of claims and strong arming tactics to force people into bankruptcy the second they can't pay. The Republican platform and world view is that the most important thing in life is the accumulation of wealth and power. Greed is good and rich people are better than poor people. I must have missed where Jesus was all about collecting stuff over making the world a better place for as many as you can. I may disagree with Religious Christian Democrats about God but at least they get the MAIN gist of the message of the New Testament right. If Homosexuality is a sin to them they know it's God's place to judge not theirs to go bash their heads in with bats.
I'm not a huge fan of Atheist as a term either because like most terms religious people screw it up - like "Theory." Atheist does not mean a person is "sure" that "God does not exist." Even Dawkins has a scale (i believe 1-7) on one end "sure that God exists" and the other end "Sure there is no human written sky God" as 7 - he places himself as a 6.9.
But that's the same for the Spaghetti Monster and teapot. Sure there could be a spaghetti monster in the sky - I can't prove there isn't and no one here can - and I can't disprove unicorns, ghosts, fairies, vampires, or Xenu and neither can Christians or Muslims etc.
Prove that there is no Xenu and never was. Oh you can't DISPROVE that he existed so that means he's there. Yet a Christian will not believe in Xenu for the same reasons I don't believe in Xenu or Unicorns or Fairies. But when it comes to their faith I'm supposed to make an exception. Seriously? It's painful reasoning.
Feanor
10-05-2012, 08:13 AM
...
Prove that there is no Xenu and never was. Oh you can't DISPROVE that he existed so that means he's there. Yet a Christian will not believe in Xenu for the same reasons I don't believe in Xenu or Unicorns or Fairies. But when it comes to their faith I'm supposed to make an exception. Seriously? It's painful reasoning.
Scientology devotees prove that people will believe anything they WANT to believe however ridiculous.
E.g. People can believe that abortion must be prohibited under any and all circumstances, but that one mustn't support the teenage single mother & child because that would reward irresponsible behavior.
Or they can believe that more Supply-Side, Trickle-down, Bribe the Rich tax schemes will create great jobs for the middle class despite 30+ years of the failure of that strategy.
Feanor
10-05-2012, 08:18 AM
I SAID>>>>>> What was wrong with Obama last night!!!
YOU GUYS ARE CRAZY!!!!!!
Wow, Frenchie, pay attention: see THIS (http://forums.audioreview.com/off-topic-non-audio/romney-crushes-obama-38466.html) thread.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-05-2012, 08:43 AM
Twisted - explain the logical faults - calling it BS is your usual history whenever something doesn't fit your belief you resort to name calling and belittling. This tells me you have no solid footing and you clearly have none here.
You don't want to use your science training (engineers of course are merely the Oompa Loompa's of science so I kind of cut them slack) but to say you can't test it is intellectual dishonesty. No you can't prove/disprove God but the onus of proof is on the person making the claim - and unless you turn your brain off you KNOW THIS IS TRUE - calling it BS makes you look like a tool.
And you also KNOW but ignore that you most certainly can test "the Sky God" premise with first year basic logic courses which you must have taken to have an engineering degree - unless universities in the U.S. are so bankrupt they too have succumb to the religious right and don't make it mandatory. That basic logic and main point of my previous post which Frenchmon ignored, to blather on about his disagreement over Bible interpretation, didn't surprise me. He didn't want to go anywhere near the God is omnipotent or omniscient arguments and neither do you.
Regurgitated - I love that. 2+2=4 is a regurgitated question and answer found in numerous Grade 1 classrooms. Yes it is a regurgitated teaching - it also happens to be FACT.
Rather than address the issues of basic logic/paradox you resort to name calling - your faith is so fragile that you can actually look into it and say "gee this doesn't make the least bit of sense" maybe I should consider the possibility that at some point I was brainwashed. Most 5 year olds believe in Santa and then eventually have a chuckle that everyone fooled you - teachers, parents, siblings, and friends. You had no reason to distrust them so most people TRULY believe in him and even write letters and put out cookies. You get up and the cookies and milk are half eaten - every fiber in your being believes fully in this tale because everyone in your life reinforces it over and over and over. People you trust immensely - so of course you believe. Then one day a friend at school perhaps will let you in on the joke. "there's no Santa" - the child STILL believes until they confront their parents or teacher. Some kids cry.
Well I'm you're little school friend telling you that you've been had but unfortunately no one told the priest or your parents.
There are several avenues to test whether there is an "omnipotent and omniscient God " and those tests "knock down" the possibility and from several sciences/disciplines not just Biology. Dawkins makes several correct cases that destroy the notion of the creation of man - and it's irrefutable. And if the ship is still barely afloat Physics and Geology put a few more torpedoes into the ship - and if it still hanging on - Philosophy comes in with an A-bomb air strike to finish it off.
Dawkins is an easy read - pretty much spells it out as easy as it can get - You should be an Atheist by the time you get to chapter 4. Not an Agnostic an Atheist - Agnostics just want to cover their ass. Although plenty of Christians on boards have told me that "I should believe because what have I got to lose" or "if you don't believe what's to stop you from doing evil things like rape and murder." Really - the only thing stopping them from killing and raping is believing in God. In that case please believe away - if that's the kind of person you are at your core then please believe in God and don't kill people. And of course just "saying" you believe in God to cover your butt - pretty sure if there was a God he'd know you were just covering your butt. Don't think you can fake God out. And he might be three times more angry if you try than say "gee God I was wrong I didn't believe in you - why did you make me an Atheist?
This is something like a 3 minute read and should raise enough alarm bells to make objective minds seriously doubt any of the Sky God teachings.
God the all-powerful: The Paradox of Omnipotence (http://secularist10.hubpages.com/hub/The-Paradox-of-Omnipotence)
RGA,
If you do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the difference between science and religion, then how do you think you can convince me of anything? Science can be tested, faith cannot. Faith is not logical, and logic does not explain all things. Faith is personal, which is why I am not going to engage in a public conversation about it - especially not with a person I consider an Idiot.
I don't give a damn about you stupid links, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY BELIEFS PERIOD. So just give it up. If you want to be an atheist, good, be one. However, none of your soulless links or comments are going to move me one bit. Say take your link(and your stupid opinions), and shove it up you bum.
And you must know that your attempts at trying to insult me are as weak as your ability to use your brain. I have already written you off as too stupid to be believed. You must know after all these years that you cannot bait me with your stupid little comments.
RGA,
If you do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the difference between science and religion, then how do you think you can convince me of anything? Science can be tested, faith cannot. Faith is not logical, and logic does not explain all things. Faith is personal, which is why I am not going to engage in a public conversation about it - especially not with a person I consider an Idiot.
I don't give a damn about you stupid links, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY BELIEFS PERIOD. So just give it up. If you want to be an atheist, good, be one. However, none of your soulless links or comments are going to move me one bit. Say take your link(and your stupid opinions), and shove it up you bum.
And you must know that your attempts at trying to insult me are as weak as your ability to use your brain. I have already written you off as too stupid to be believed. You must know after all these years that you cannot bait me with your stupid little comments.
So it's back to name calling. Yup Idiots are the ones who question Hocus Pocus BS.
Soulless links? Please direct me to the links which have "souls" - oops I know silly me I'm gonna want evidence of "souls" that are in "links." Are these souls(ghosts) different than the other mythical types supposedly inside of us that you believe in?
Scientology devotees prove that people will believe anything they WANT to believe however ridiculous.
E.g. People can believe that abortion must be prohibited under any and all circumstances, but that one mustn't support the teenage single mother & child because that would reward irresponsible behavior.
Or they can believe that more Supply-Side, Trickle-down, Bribe the Rich tax schemes will create great jobs for the middle class despite 30+ years of the failure of that strategy.
And that abortion is wrong but it's perfectly fine to kill the abortion doctor and also be for Capital Punishment.
And then if you point to the logical faults you're called an idiot.
One of the great Professors I had in University had us select an essay topic. This was a philosophy course on contemporary moral problems - abortion, capital punishment, Euthanasia etc.
You selected a topic and a side. You submitted the proposal. The prof said great "You have selected to argue for Pro-Choice" And then the prof made a change to everyone's proposals - they got the topic they selected but not the side of the debate they chose. We were all forced to write for the opposing belief system. So the religious students had to write a paper advocating pro-choice and vice-versa.
You can make a lot of very good arguments for Pro-life without ever needing to cite Bible quotes.
I took a criminology course and the professor wanted a debate over capital punishment and asked for volunteers to argue for the death penalty - I was the only person to put up my hand. Eesh I took flack from classmates who thought I was for it. (Canada remember and many budding lawyers).
I argued from a world view population model, and "perceived" immorality. More people die in construction accidents than everyone combined from the the death penalty - and that media individualized the deaths of criminals. Even if they get the odd one wrong - so be it. etc.
Further the chicken and the egg argument of the following scenario. My case was as follows - It is wrong to put a man to death who is a confessed serial killer who video taped his murders and killed 20 children. DNA, Video, confession and witnesses - yes they say capital punishment is murder so you're no better because you too have resorted to murder.
Scenario 2 is a man is holding a knife over a kid's head and is about to murder the kid. You have a gun and only one clear shot to kill this would be killer to save the boy's life. Do you shoot. Answer from the anti-capital punishment crowd was of course.
But wait - this man has not actually killed anyone - to this point he has not committed any crime but it's ok to kill this innocent man but not okay to kill a serial killer after the fact. Of course the guy with the knife may have seen a snake on the boy's arm no facing you and he was about to stab the snake -- oops.
There is a counter to the above as well of course - one is to save a life so you choose the lesser evil to save or the evil to kill while the after the fact murder is more isolated etc.
As for trickle down economics - of course it works - it works for the rich.
This is a population that is analogous to the Ferengi in Star Trek Deep Space Nine. If you watched that show at all you will know that everything is about profit. But of course there were rich Ferengi and good businessmen who had the "lobes for business" Women were second rate (not too off the mark either as an analogy) but most Ferengi were poor.
So why didn't the Ferengi scrap the model and start over - why didn't they become more socialized? Because every Ferengi believed that someday they too would become rich. Kind of the "Ferengian Dream."
Arthur Miller's "Death of a Salesman" still ranks as my favorite play and is hugely relevant today and probably for all time under a similar economic structure. When people figure out that a "solid" income and a "solid" safety net for ALL is better than high risk high reward propositions then everyone is better off and the entire country gains. But it's the same play the lotto for a retirement plan belief system that people have.
The same people who don't want the government to "look after them" with tax dollars are perfectly fine believing that if you make billionaires hundred billionaires that they will "look after them" by giving them a job. It's just so dumb. The rich are not going to give you a job - they're going to use the tax break to open a plant in Whenzhou, China and hire 20 people who combined make less than 1 American worker. So you're ass is out of a job. You'd think these right wing dimwits would have learned from 2000-2008 that it wasn't Obama who lost your job.
The great thing about Star Trek is that it was basically Dicken's idealistic future. The trick is to get from A (the current mess) to the ideal (TNGish world view). At least move in that direction. Romney is a Ferengi but at least Quark was honest about it.
Feanor
10-06-2012, 06:13 AM
RGA,
If you do not have the intellectual capacity to understand the difference between science and religion, then how do you think you can convince me of anything? Science can be tested, faith cannot. Faith is not logical, and logic does not explain all things. Faith is personal, which is why I am not going to engage in a public conversation about it - especially not with a person I consider an Idiot.
I don't give a damn about you stupid links, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO CHANGE MY BELIEFS PERIOD. So just give it up. If you want to be an atheist, good, be one. However, none of your soulless links or comments are going to move me one bit. Say take your link(and your stupid opinions), and shove it up you bum.
And you must know that your attempts at trying to insult me are as weak as your ability to use your brain. I have already written you off as too stupid to be believed. You must know after all these years that you cannot bait me with your stupid little comments.
So it seems that almost nobody is above name calling -- I'll admit it was me that requested that this thread be closed.
I feel reasonably comfortable & safe with a person like you who can reasonably compartmentalize their conciousness between areas that require empirical evidence & reason from those where they can indulge in believing whatever makes them feel good.
I think I speak for RGA in this to an extent, though -- goodness knows -- he can speak for himself.
But the world has a whole lot of people who cannot so reasonably compartmentalize their beliefs, but permit their non-rational beliefs to predominate in areas where ignoring rational, empirical evidence is harmful. And who furthermore strive might-and-main to force the tenets of their non-rational belief on to the lives and actions of others.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-06-2012, 08:33 AM
So it's back to name calling. Yup Idiots are the ones who question Hocus Pocus BS.
Soulless links? Please direct me to the links which have "souls" - oops I know silly me I'm gonna want evidence of "souls" that are in "links." Are these souls(ghosts) different than the other mythical types supposedly inside of us that you believe in?
:You call it name calling, I call it identifying who you really are.
JohnMichael
10-06-2012, 08:58 AM
So it seems that almost nobody is above name calling -- I'll admit it was me that requested that this thread be closed.
Your request alone was not why the thread was closed. I did not close the thread until calling one another inbreds began. I knew others were becoming uncomfortable with the thread. Yet others wanted to continue the lovely tone of the posts we had been reading. Maybe I should add a warning to the title?
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-06-2012, 10:35 AM
So it seems that almost nobody is above name calling -- I'll admit it was me that requested that this thread be closed.
Bill, how could you? This is unthinkable that you would do such a thing. I am disappointed.......well maybe not! LOLOL
I feel reasonably comfortable & safe with a person like you who can reasonably compartmentalize their consciousness between areas that require empirical evidence & reason from those where they can indulge in believing whatever makes them feel good.
My faith is intensely personal. I do not recruit, or make any attempts to change anyone over to my way of thinking when it comes to faith. In other words, it is not exportable, and IMC not open for discussion. Besides, what is the logic in discussing my faith with an profoundly adamant atheist? Can you see what a waste of time that would be?
I think I speak for RGA in this to an extent, though -- goodness knows -- he can speak for himself.
And speak, and speak, and speak, and speak, and speak some more, and more, and more(and this can go on into infinity). He can so this while saying absolutely nothing in the process.
But the world has a whole lot of people who cannot so reasonably compartmentalize their beliefs, but permit their non-rational beliefs to predominate in areas where ignoring rational, empirical evidence is harmful. And who furthermore strive might-and-main to force the tenets of their non-rational belief on to the lives and actions of others.
Speaking to your last sentence, there is no way in the world I am going to do that....no way. I understand clearly what belongs to science, and what belongs to faith. The two are incompatible, and cannot be mixed together - hence why I reject Richard asinine comment about my adherence to science in one area, and not doing it in another. If Dawkins is so great, then why can't he get out of that wheelchair, breathe on his own, and heal himself?
Let's face it, even a atheist has some measure of faith. They breathe air they cannot see, and they believe they will live to see tomorrow(and plan their days just like I do with that in mind), they drive cars on the road, ride in airplanes and expect to reach their destination, and they believe that medication will heal their sickness. They may not believe in God, but they have faith in something right?
I have no understanding of why anyone would come here, insult people because of their faith, and make any attempt to dissuade them from believing in whatever they want to by presenting the opinions of a mere man. By presenting him as your definitive answer to all things, then he becomes the god - and sorry, I don't have that kind of belief in men, especially one that cannot heal himself. Dawkins does not know all there is to know, and that makes him an unsuitable vehicle to attempt to change what I believe in.
A sighted and double blind test has different objectives. That is clear. One establishes a personal preference, the other removes it as a basis of decision making. It is the same with science and faith(not religion). One seeks to make one a better person who interacts better with others(when done perfectly which we don't), and the other is a quest for knowledge where it is proven(of which we don't know 1/100's of in reality).
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-06-2012, 10:40 AM
Your request alone was not why the thread was closed. I did not close the thread until calling one another inbreds began. I knew others were becoming uncomfortable with the thread. Yet others wanted to continue the lovely tone of the posts we had been reading. Maybe I should add a warning to the title?
Rated NC-17? Not for the faint of heart? Beware of the rantings of a psychopathic atheist?
I like the last one.......
Feanor
10-06-2012, 04:09 PM
...
My faith is intensely personal. I do not recruit, or make any attempts to change anyone over to my way of thinking when it comes to faith. In other words, it is not exportable, and IMC not open for discussion. Besides, what is the logic in discussing my faith with an profoundly adamant atheist? Can you see what a waste of time that would be? ...
Yes!
...
Let's face it, even a atheist has some measure of faith. They breathe air they cannot see, and they believe they will live to see tomorrow(and plan their days just like I do with that in mind), they drive cars on the road, ride in airplanes and expect to reach their destination, and they believe that medication will heal their sickness. They may not believe in God, but they have faith in something right? ...
Well, not necessarily "faith"; let's say they have "reasonable expectations" about some things like airplanes and doctors' advice.
Some people reject God for subjective reasons that can very well be non-rational. On the other hand, most atheists I've known are fundamentally skeptics who naturally tend to doubt rather than faith. Like good scientists, they might accept empirical evidence and work with theories based on it, but remain open to evidence to the contrary. So, no, these atheists don't have faith in the usual religious sense.
Science isn't faith and I don't have faith that a given medicine will work. It has been tested to work and deemed to work then it will work. If it has a 90% success rate then I have a "reasonably high" expectation that it will work for me - but I won't curse the devil if it doesn't.
Dawkins the Biologist isn't in a wheelchair. I assume you have him mixed up with Stephen Hawking (Physicist) both of whom are Atheists.
As for the air we breathe you can see it via tests and you can certain feel it. I don't need faith in air since when it's not there I'll be dead. I can't understand how you could even make the absurd analogy.
Philosophy and science (some disciplines viewed as stronger to weaker) are empirical and require testing and evidence to support theory. Physics, Chemistry, and Biology head the fields.
The reason I have trouble with DBT isn't because the methodology is wrong it is because it is completely misapplied by audiophiles and non science types. Further it enters the realm of psychology which isn't even called a science at most universities but is in fact part of the Arts degree program. Regardless, DBT in audio auditions is "weak science" and is open to numerous attacks - which is why so many people argue against relying on them in any kind of absolute way. On the other hand if someone wants to "go with them" then fine by me. Since believing in the difference or not isn't going to cause deaths who really cares?
And Sir T - As for long posts - Pot meet Kettle
Feanor
Yes you're right about compartmentalized beliefs. But I am not convinced that "truly" happens given the Sir T's analogies about Science or what equals the term "faith." He seems to think that if I can't see God I don't believe but I can't see "air" yet I have faith that it is there. Sight has nothing to do with it since the human eye is so bad. Surely if a designer made it I'd be able to see air. But it was never designed it evolved and it evolved into something it needs to be "which is good enough" for the purpose required.
As an aside - I am not adamant on Atheism - if someone can prove to me that there is a Sky -God I'll be happy to pray. Atheists have open minds to new evidence that comes along. In a vacuum of evidence however we don't fill in life altering feel good stories to explain stuff.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-07-2012, 10:02 AM
And Sir T - As for long posts - Pot meet Kettle
Yeah well, I actually say something. You on the other hand provide us with a long winded air sandwich that can be said in far fewer words(Which results in a little less air, but still no substance). My posts are technical in nature which requires an explainantion, yours is just long winded opinion pieces with absolutely no technical merit at all.
Feanor
Yes you're right about compartmentalized beliefs. But I am not convinced that "truly" happens given the Sir T's analogies about Science or what equals the term "faith." He seems to think that if I can't see God I don't believe but I can't see "air" yet I have faith that it is there. Sight has nothing to do with it since the human eye is so bad. Surely if a designer made it I'd be able to see air. But it was never designed it evolved and it evolved into something it needs to be "which is good enough" for the purpose required.
If you cannot see the compartmentalization, then this is a confirmation that not only are you an idiot, but you are a blind one. If Bill can recongnize it and confirm's it is there, that is the only reasonable explaination - you DON"T WANT to see it.
As far as the human eye being so bad - not only do you not have a audio clue, but you have no clue how acute the eye really is. Your comment is ignorant, and not based on fact, which is par for the course for you.
Who gives a damn about convincing you of anything? You should know by now that I don't give a damn what you think. It really should be crystal clear.
As an aside - I am not adamant on Atheism - if someone can prove to me that there is a Sky -God I'll be happy to pray. Atheists have open minds to new evidence that comes along. In a vacuum of evidence however we don't fill in life altering feel good stories to explain stuff.
Based on what I have read here, you are a adamant athiest. And what is worse, is you come here and insult and try and change my mind using the words of another man who is as fallible as I am.
How stupid is that?
I think the real reason why you are still here blowing out all of this hot air is because you weakly and ineffectively tried to goad me into religious arguement - and stupidly wanted me to analyze it using scientific methods, and I refused causing you to hurl your kidneys out of your nose and ears.
Pobre bebe', se siente frustrado y eso es una verguenza. Aqui es una toalla de pepel, limpia tu auto hasta.
Yeah well, I actually say something. You on the other hand provide us with a long winded air sandwich that can be said in far fewer words(Which results in a little less air, but still no substance). My posts are technical in nature which requires an explainantion, yours is just long winded opinion pieces with absolutely no technical merit at all.
Most of your windbag replies have nothing to do with practical experience - you remind me of a borderline Aspergers type who can't understand what people are actually talking about. Real world listening to real world albums versus technical comparisons of 1 recording done in isolation without providing specific information to allow anyone to verify (ie; peer review) your experience. No one cares.
If you cannot see the compartmentalization, then this is a confirmation that not only are you an idiot, but you are a blind one. If Bill can recongnize it and confirm's it is there, that is the only reasonable explaination - you DON"T WANT to see it.
Again learn to read - yes you compartmentalize but your analogy was patently absurd. You separate science from religion but you liken science to a MERE faith as if it is on the same level as religion in that we put "faith" in technology, medicine, and that the earth will be here tomorrow. No one can possibly be stupid enough to buy into that. Compartmentalized minds can also merely indicate a borderline split personality. You've said several times that it's all 'mere man' which implies that science is "lower" in fact and evidence than faith.
As far as the human eye being so bad - not only do you not have a audio clue, but you have no clue how acute the eye really is. Your comment is ignorant, and not based on fact, which is par for the course for you.
Again you're lack of science understanding is ASTOUNDING! The hack university you went to should revoke your degree.
I know you won't actually follow the link because you're too closed minded but how about listen to the world's BEST Biologist who Chairs Oxford University discussing the human eye. I know you're too much of an ego maniac to ever once on any topic EVER admit you're wrong - but the world's best biologist on the human Eye versus you (some "legend in his own mind" weenie who makes movies go boom boom real loud supporting a vacuous industry - LOL). Puhleeze!
Richard Dawkins on Eye Evolution - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5M8fXCyQ94)
The human eye is an example of why it would NOT be designed.
Incidentally, I have taught the very same simple blind spot experiment in the above link to grade 5 classes and at science fairs. No one walks away thinking the eye is any way shape or form perfect. And only an incompetent BOOB would design the human eye the way it's been designed. So either Evolution is true or God is an incompetent BOOB. And that's your ONLY choices. Let me guess, you're gonna compartmentalize that too.:mad2:
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-08-2012, 11:04 AM
Most of your windbag replies have nothing to do with practical experience - you remind me of a borderline Aspergers type who can't understand what people are actually talking about. Real world listening to real world albums versus technical comparisons of 1 recording done in isolation without providing specific information to allow anyone to verify (ie; peer review) your experience. No one cares.
Can you tell me what good is practical experience when you don't even have a basic understanding of what you are experiencing. How could you peer review anything, you don't know jack $hit about anything except what you think sounds good. This is a prime example of that.
http://forums.audioreview.com/general-audio/hi-resolution-audio-article-may-helpful-38462.html
Getting a headache off of basic digital audio 101? So you are all opinion, and no education.
Now let's tackle the practical experience slant.
http://forums.audioreview.com/favorite-films/why-soundtracks-should-remixed-hometheater-37210.html
Can't write stuff like this without practical and educational experience can you stupid?
Again learn to read - yes you compartmentalize but your analogy was patently absurd. You separate science from religion but you liken science to a MERE faith as if it is on the same level as religion in that we put "faith" in technology, medicine, and that the earth will be here tomorrow. No one can possibly be stupid enough to buy into that. Compartmentalized minds can also merely indicate a borderline split personality. You've said several times that it's all 'mere man' which implies that science is "lower" in fact and evidence than faith.
See this is where your emotions blind your stupid a$$. You have a bad habit of smushing things together because you CANNOT compartmentalize anything. A mere man has nothing to do with science, but the fallibility of THAT or ANY man. Then you turn to a semantic argument as faith is not a religious construct at all. It is a human construct. Faith is not strictly a religious concept. You can have faith in your spouse, in your kids judgement, that the universe isn't going to collapse around you tomorrow.
1
confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.
belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.
belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.
a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.
There is a hairsbreadth of difference between "reasonable expectation" and faith. Using the term "reasonable expectation" is designed to distance yourself from anything related to religion, and based on the meaning of the word, it has both religious and non religious connotations.
Again you're lack of science understanding is ASTOUNDING! The hack university you went to should revoke your degree.
Another stupid statement from a stupid person. Nobody can call USC a hack university, and I didn't go there to get a science degree stupid!
I know you won't actually follow the link because you're too closed minded but how about listen to the world's BEST Biologist who Chairs Oxford University discussing the human eye. I know you're too much of an ego maniac to ever once on any topic EVER admit you're wrong - but the world's best biologist on the human Eye versus you (some "legend in his own mind" weenie who makes movies go boom boom real loud supporting a vacuous industry - LOL). Puhleeze!
Richard Dawkins on Eye Evolution - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5M8fXCyQ94)
The human eye is an example of why it would NOT be designed.
So you complain about being called names, and then you turn around and call names. HYPOCRITE, and a stupid one at that. This is not about the eyes, and you like to deflect to minor non topic stuff to make up for your lack on topic stuff. I have no interest in your link because the topic of this thread is not about the eyes.
Incidentally, I have taught the very same simple blind spot experiment in the above link to grade 5 classes and at science fairs. No one walks away thinking the eye is any way shape or form perfect. And only an incompetent BOOB would design the human eye the way it's been designed. So either Evolution is true or God is an incompetent BOOB. And that's your ONLY choices. Let me guess, you're gonna compartmentalize that too.:mad2:
Who said the eyes were perfect? I didn't, and this is a prime example that you are so emotional about non emotional stuff, that you cannot even read what is on the page.
Why don't you open a new post so you can talk about the eyes. I sure in the hell am not going to talk about religion, and you stupid weak a$$ goading is not going to take me there.
So, you can take all of your comments and shove them straight up your stupid(to match the rest of you) a$$.
Man you are long winded saying nothing.
Once agauin you have it mostly wrong.
There is not a hairsbreath difference between faith (or reasonable expectation) in any of the things you just mentioned versus faith in God. People who have faith in God are 100% positive and KNOW FOR A FACT that God exists. Every single religious person I have ever met is 100% positive that God is there without question and without doubt.
No one has that same level of expectation of their buddy Joe meeting them at Starbucks at 6pm because he said so and is usually always on time. Science types will make the adjustments.
A person having Faith that flying themselves into buildings because it's the word of their God so they can go to heaven and get 72 virgins is just slightly different than me hiring Fred the accountant with the expectation and I suppose "faith" that Fred will turn the work in when he says he will. This usage of the term faith is not remotely the same as religious "Faith" and that is because if you ask me whether I am 100% sure Fred will absolutely without question and without doubt hand in the work when he says I will say No.
That's the key difference - doubt. I am reasonably sure I will wake up tomorrow but I am not 100% of this. A spider could come in and bite me - my heart could take a holiday a plane could crash into my apartment. I don't have absolute knowledge of future events.
The eye is an example to "test" the notion as to whether God is omnipotant. A perfect person/entity means that everything he/she/it does is perfect. They would never make mistakes in mathematics tests, they would throw a perfect game striking out every batter on 3 pitches, they would write perfectly and everything they design would be "perfect." Including the human eyeball and interface to the brain.
The human eye is often used by Christians to illustrate this "perfection of design" and used as "evidence" that God must be the creator. I genuinely apologise if you were unaware that the human eye is trotted out a "proof" of intelligent design on virtually every debate on religion. Perfection creates perfection. Now if we want to say God is not "perfect" well I could get on board somewhat - but the problem is the religious people don't accept or entertain the possibility. And then there is the Duck Billed Platipus!
We have been discussing religion - the eye discussion is pretty central to that. I understand I won't convince you not to have religious faith but I wonder why you are so loathe to even read about dissenting viewpoints. You started this entire thing attacking me for not believing in God and not to me but to Frenchmon. I know you like to keep attacking me calling me an idiot every post but I have presented sound loigic and scientific reasons and you've not once considered them - or even read anything on why people don;t believe and why it's not a real good reason to.
dingus
10-08-2012, 05:10 PM
hey Sir Terrence the Terrible,
its not my fight and i'm not interested in making it mine, but i have to ask, what faith are you?
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-08-2012, 06:07 PM
Man you are long winded saying nothing.
Once agauin you have it mostly wrong.
There is not a hairsbreath difference between faith (or reasonable expectation) in any of the things you just mentioned versus faith in God. People who have faith in God are 100% positive and KNOW FOR A FACT that God exists. Every single religious person I have ever met is 100% positive that God is there without question and without doubt.
If that is what they want to believe, then what business is that of yours? You are showing yourself to be a narrow minded judgemental prick. If you don't believe, and they do, then the discussion is over. There is no point in getting into a discussion on this issue when two polar opposites are involved. You are not going to change their minds, and they are not going to change yours - discussion over. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Faith is faith. Whether it is faith is science, or in religion. Scientist believe the universe was created by the big bang theory. My question to them is how do you know, where you there? Look at the second definition of faith I posted.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
No one has proof this is how the universe was created, it is a theory they happen to think is correct. Scientist have faith in that theory. What you don't seem to get is faith by definition has a pretty multifauceted meaning. But faith is faith nevertheless.
No one has that same level of expectation of their buddy Joe meeting them at Starbucks at 6pm because he said so and is usually always on time. Science types will make the adjustments.
And so would anyone with any common sense.
A person having Faith that flying themselves into buildings because it's the word of their God so they can go to heaven and get 72 virgins is just slightly different than me hiring Fred the accountant with the expectation and I suppose "faith" that Fred will turn the work in when he says he will. This usage of the term faith is not remotely the same as religious "Faith" and that is because if you ask me whether I am 100% sure Fred will absolutely without question and without doubt hand in the work when he says I will say No.
This is not called faith, it is fanaticism - big difference. And sorry, but you are talking about situational faith, but it is still faith. You are parsing the meaning, and the definition is pretty clear whether you like it or not.
That's the key difference - doubt. I am reasonably sure I will wake up tomorrow but I am not 100% of this. A spider could come in and bite me - my heart could take a holiday a plane could crash into my apartment. I don't have absolute knowledge of future events.
This is faith no matter how you slice it. Once again, read the definition of faith that I posted. There is five pieces to it, not just one.
The eye is an example to "test" the notion as to whether God is omnipotant. A perfect person/entity means that everything he/she/it does is perfect. They would never make mistakes in mathematics tests, they would throw a perfect game striking out every batter on 3 pitches, they would write perfectly and everything they design would be "perfect." Including the human eyeball and interface to the brain.
The human eye is often used by Christians to illustrate this "perfection of design" and used as "evidence" that God must be the creator. I genuinely apologise if you were unaware that the human eye is trotted out a "proof" of intelligent design on virtually every debate on religion. Perfection creates perfection. Now if we want to say God is not "perfect" well I could get on board somewhat - but the problem is the religious people don't accept or entertain the possibility. And then there is the Duck Billed Platipus!
Can you walk straight? Can you run straight? Can you drive straight? Can you see 7 million colors? Can you recognize black from white? Can you see a predator if it is not hidden? Can you aim? If all this is a yes, then the eyes that we come with serve their purpose. They do not have to be perfect for man to survive, so you point is just a mere sidetrack to the original context of this post.
We have been discussing religion - the eye discussion is pretty central to that.[/quote]
No it is not, and that is best illustrated by the fact it was not mentioned earlier in the discussion. You are just mudding the issue PERIOD.
I understand I won't convince you not to have religious faith but I wonder why you are so loathe to even read about dissenting viewpoints.
Richard, what makes you think I have not already?. Do you know me personally? Have you ever lived with me? You are making an assumptions. Do you really believe this is the first time I have ever discussed this topic? If so, then you have a brain of a tsetse fly. I have had plenty of these discussion with athiests, and it goes nowhere....absolutely nowhere. This is why I will not bother with it, or waste my time - IT GOES NOWHERE.
You started this entire thing attacking me for not believing in God and not to me but to Frenchmon. I know you like to keep attacking me calling me an idiot every post but I have presented sound loigic and scientific reasons and you've not once considered them - or even read anything on why people don;t believe and why it's not a real good reason to.
Read what I said again. I told Frenchmon he is wasting his time talking with you on this issue, and I am right about it. Frenchmon is a believer in God, you are not. So why should he waste his time talking with a brickwall on this issue. Richard, you are too damn emotional for your own good.
You presented some off topic science, and your personal opinion. That is it. If you think you have contributed sound logic, then you are a legend in your own mind. It is not sound logic to spend your time disparaging what you don't believe in. That is idiocracy - hence why you get called an idiot.
You are still making assumption. I have heard many reasons why people don't believe in God. I have also heard many reasons why people do, and it has nothing to do with them being weak and incapable of coping with life.
You make so many assumptions it is pitiful. You don't know me PERIOD, and logically you have to recognize this.
You are just another person with another opinion. Like a$$e$ we all have them. Somebody's 100% belief is just as valid as your 100% disbelief. You are not all knowing, and neither is science.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-08-2012, 06:10 PM
hey Sir Terrence the Terrible,
its not my fight and i'm not interested in making it mine, but i have to ask, what faith are you?
With all due respect to you, this is my personal business, and I don't discuss this on a audio forum - even in the off topic section.
I hope you don't take this negatively, as that is not the spirit that I am delivering to you.
If that is what they want to believe, then what business is that of yours?
Because what they "believe" impacts everyone and gets the likes of Bush elected. In other words people often die for their beliefs. If they want to die for them fine by me - but they also tend to take people with them. That's not judgment that's historical fact.
You are showing yourself to be a narrow minded judgemental prick. If you don't believe, and they do, then the discussion is over. There is no point in getting into a discussion on this issue when two polar opposites are involved. You are not going to change their minds, and they are not going to change yours - discussion over. Why is this so hard for you to understand?
Most Atheists began as Catholics, Christians etc. Just this past Sunday evening I met an "ex" Catholic. It would seem it is very possible to be a polar opposite and then come around to something when looked upon a different way. In your case and Frenchmon's etc that will never be the case - I get that.
Faith is faith. Whether it is faith is science, or in religion. Scientist believe the universe was created by the big bang theory. My question to them is how do you know, where you there? Look at the second definition of faith I posted.
Faith is not faith. Scientific faith or "reasonable expectation" means that they are 100% willing to drop that placeholder theory when new evidence comes along and knocks it down. Religious faith is an entirely different animal. When confronted with 100% undeniable fact these people ignore it completely and believe whatever they want to believe. Which is fine by me but some country usually gets bombed because of it.
belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
Once again it is a questionable of reasonableness. For something to be held as significant theory in science it always has a tremendous amount of evidence (discovered through tests) to verify that it would be highly improbable and unlikely for the theory not to be true. That is different than saying "I have faith that it is true."
No one has proof this is how the universe was created, it is a theory they happen to think is correct. Scientist have faith in that theory. What you don't seem to get is faith by definition has a pretty multifauceted meaning. But faith is faith nevertheless.
I have been the one telling you that faith means different things - you just said it is multifaceted and then say it's all the same. It's not. Religious Faith implies belief beyond any doubt (based on ZERO evidence, ZERO facts) - scientists do not say the Big Bang Theory is absolute. They have numerous tests in physics, astronomy, mathematics that heavily point to this theory(and variations of it) being true. I personally am not up on the Big Bang but I know that it wasn't without problems. Interestingly it was a Belgian Priest who first came out with the theory of the Big Bang. There is also a difference between the Big Bang Theory and the cause of it. Science doesn't even attempt to answer the latter. A religious person could argue (and has argued) that God snapped his fingers (that would be a helluva bang) and thus began the Universe.
This is not called faith, it is fanaticism - big difference. And sorry, but you are talking about situational faith, but it is still faith. You are parsing the meaning, and the definition is pretty clear whether you like it or not.
I understand what you're saying - I am not lumping you in with people who go out shooting abortion doctors or blowing buildings up. But there are a lot of easily persuadable people out there who attend the Ted Haggert's and Jerry Falwell's of the world in football stadium sized numbers. People who send the "message" to lynch homosexuals or that Louisiana got what they deserved for being subversive etc. Sure the Westboro guys are written off as fanatical nuts (even buy Fox News) but Falwell is revered by them as a National Hero. And sure you and I may both agree that Fox is batcrap crazy but the last I checked they have the highest ratings for news in the U.S. So I am not sure you are in the majority. The fanatical parts of the religions seem to be in charge.
Can you walk straight? Can you run straight? Can you drive straight? Can you see 7 million colors? Can you recognize black from white? Can you see a predator if it is not hidden? Can you aim? If all this is a yes, then the eyes that we come with serve their purpose. They do not have to be perfect for man to survive, so you point is just a mere sidetrack to the original context of this post.
The eye has "evolved" and adapted based on the needs of the animal's environment. As I said the eye is adequate for human purposes to ensure the survival of our species. But it suffers a host of unnecessary problems. Had a human top flight optical engineer sat down and was given the power to be all powerful and could create exactly what he wanted for the eye brain interface the human eye would laughed off the drawing board.
And that's just a man. If an all powerful being who is perfect in every way creates something his creation would be perfect. That means there would be no gross blind spots, there would be none of this 7 year olds having to wear glasses because they fail badly so soon. Or lousy night vision etc.
No it is not, and that is best illustrated by the fact it was not mentioned earlier in the discussion. You are just mudding the issue PERIOD.
But it is because the argument is that there are no tests for a Perfect God. Using basic logic is not muddying the issue - it IS the issue. Now if you want to make the case that God is not perfect then that's something else entirely and yes the eye would not be central. God's not perfect and he made the eyeball at midnight on the 6th day and He was tired then great. Of course the problem then becomes - if he is not perfect and always right then it's possible he screwed up other things too. The slippery slop people don't want to go down.
Richard, what makes you think I have not already?. Do you know me personally? Have you ever lived with me? You are making an assumptions. Do you really believe this is the first time I have ever discussed this topic?
Actually I didn't make an assumption and that's kind of the point. You did not provide one argument to me that you have made such arguments in the past. Nor did you say that you did. So I did not assume that you have been in big religious debates. Over the last say 7 years Richard Dawkins has been pretty outspoken on this subject and since you didn't seem to know who he was mixing him up with a Hawking a scientist in a completely different field" you gave me no indication whatsoever that you have been in these debates previously. It would have been erroneous of me based on this to assume that you had engaged in the discussion.
I have had plenty of these discussion with athiests, and it goes nowhere....absolutely nowhere. This is why I will not bother with it, or waste my time - IT GOES NOWHERE.
Fair enough.
Read what I said again. I told Frenchmon he is wasting his time talking with you on this issue, and I am right about it. Frenchmon is a believer in God, you are not. So why should he waste his time talking with a brickwall on this issue. Richard, you are too damn emotional for your own good.
I am not posting from emotion - I outlined logical problems with Sky-God belief systems. You choose to read and think and apply reason or you choose not to. You've told me your decision. No problems
You presented some off topic science, and your personal opinion. That is it. If you think you have contributed sound logic, then you are a legend in your own mind. It is not sound logic to spend your time disparaging what you don't believe in. That is idiocracy - hence why you get called an idiot.
It's called educating people to look at one thing versus another and understand why one thing makes more sense than another. One clearly does and the other clearly does not. Critical thinking on religion is uncomfortable and I can understand that reducing ignorance and increasing people's knowledge and increase their ability to examine and think for themselves is my day job. That doesn't stop when I walk out of the classroom.
You are still making assumption. I have heard many reasons why people don't believe in God. I have also heard many reasons why people do, and it has nothing to do with them being weak and incapable of coping with life.
Not at all - there is lots of money to be made in religion. You can indeed be very successful and cope quite well with religion.
You are just another person with another opinion. Like a$$e$ we all have them. Somebody's 100% belief is just as valid as your 100% disbelief. You are not all knowing, and neither is science.
Science doesn't claim to be all knowing - Religious people however do claim to be all knowing - they KNOW God made the earth, is omnipotent and omniscient. They know what happens to them when they die, they know what will happen to RGA when he dies, they KNOW it absolutely.
noddin0ff
10-09-2012, 05:34 AM
People who have faith in God are 100% positive and KNOW FOR A FACT that God exists. Every single religious person I have ever met is 100% positive that God is there without question and without doubt.
Faith is faith. Whether it is faith is science, or in religion. Scientist believe the universe was created by the big bang theory. My question to them is how do you know, where you there? Look at the second definition of faith I posted.
I'm so totally not qualified to step in here but that doesn't seem to deter me. Morning coffee in hand, it pains me to see Science set up in opposition to Faith. As a scientist and current agnostic, both the extremes (acknowledging that there's been many good moderate points of views) presented here just don't ring true for me.
I would define Faith as the acceptance of statements regarding unknowable aspects of how the world works as true. (I shy away from 'belief' in the unknowable because that implies the absence of doubt and I would say the majority of the Faithful still have doubt.)
I would define Science as the process of synthesizing a description of how the world works from careful observation.
Both are approaches to understanding the world and on the whole both are frequently misrepresented.
The Faithful rely on existing statements about how the world works. These are deemed true so long as they don't obviously conflict with the individuals experience of the world. When there is conflict Faithful folk tend to narrow the sphere of their faith. I think most people apply Faith reasonably to areas of moral guidance and the truly unknowable (what is the experience after death, e.g.) and the interaction of the two. Faithful tend to accept statements (that pertain to Faith) about how the world works as true, when they observe that the world works similar to their Faithful understanding, Faith is affirmed. When it doesn't…well, honestly I never really figured out for myself what the plan was here… so I don't know what the answer is. Apply more or less Faith, I suppose…or argue about it. Faith is a personal thing, the quality of which is defined by the person with the faith. Some, I'm sure define their faith as the ability to hold a belief in the face of conflicting evidence. Personally, I think the quality of Faith should be measured by how well it accommodates and incorporates the conflicting evidence of experience.
Scientists rely on careful observation. Careful observation involves creating various hypothesis about how the world should work, predicting what the evidence for or against this would look like, and then looking to see if that evidence exists. If not, start anew with a different hypothesis. Not every scientist is 100% effective, some are pretty bad at this. But scientists are aware that people are imperfect and tend to doubt everything until the evidence is solid enough to suggest the most reasonable synthesis of how the world works. Scientists always consider argument and doubt to be healthy, however painful personally. The quality of a concept of how the world works is determined by how well it holds up against every doubt, and every potential bit of counter observation that you can throw at it.
Anyway, I think it's silly to attack a persons Faith as being wrong. Faith is Faith and Faith is a personal experience. It's also silly to beat back Faith with Science. Science is a process and not a belief system. We expect a lot of science to be wrong before we get any universal rights. I have Faith in Science but a could never prove if that Faith was right or not. It's a lot easier to have blind faith than it is to intellectually challenge faith. It's also much much harder to do good science than it is to jump to conclusions.
People do good things and people do bad things, both in the name of science and in faith. Crusades & Eugenics vs Charity & Vaccines. People will do bad things regardless of what they believe or know, either because they are just evil or because they don't care about others as much as themselves.
Civil argument is always good. Its a lab for working out ideas and differences. I guess I can see why some would want to close the thread. But, the mods are reminding all to be civil and people are testing out arguments. That seems to me a better good.
noddin0ff
10-09-2012, 05:52 AM
An argument for more God...I think.
Craig’s Artisinal Pickles Philosophy (http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/craigs-artisinal-pickles-philosophy)
Feanor
10-09-2012, 10:07 AM
An argument for more God...I think.
Craig’s Artisinal Pickles Philosophy (http://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/craigs-artisinal-pickles-philosophy)
:lol: Wow! Dissing God! :nono: Tender feelings could be hurt and/or fatwahs issued.
I have noticed, though, that believers tend to feel that God should get all the praise but none of the blame.:devil: Wish I'd had it more like God during my career.
Funny article. It is interesting how believers think that they do nothing on their own and that all they do is God working through them.
But a non-believer gets thru the day all by themselves.
Another interesting observation is how I have never had an Atheist knock on my door to convert me but I have had many many Christian based, JWs, Mormons, and the likes try to convert me.
noddin0ff
10-10-2012, 07:39 AM
I didn't read the article either as an attack or a defense of God. It was just a humorous parody of Godlessness. For balance, I'll put in some plugs for God and the faithful.
I have noticed, though, that believers tend to feel that God should get all the praise but none of the blame. Wish I'd had it more like God during my career.
Well, praise is really a form of thanks for blessings bestowed. From my Lutheran upbringings, my take on the doctrine is that we don't, on our own merits deserve blessings, so it's right to be thankful and praise God for the good in our lives. It's beyond man's ability to comprehend God or God's motives but not beyond us to be thankful for the good. When something 'bad' happens, well, its not in mankind's right to judge god, ergo you can't blame god. You can be angry with God, however. Lot's of examples of that.
Summary: I don't think there is any thing wrong with imbalance you point out. It's quite logical. Them's just the rules of Faith.
Funny article. It is interesting how believers think that they do nothing on their own and that all they do is God working through them.
But a non-believer gets thru the day all by themselves.
I'll disagree with this one too (except, I do think the article is funny). After all, "The Lord helps those who help themselves"
OK. That's not really anywhere in the bible. But it's pretty clear that there is no basis for a belief, along the lines of what Hyfi implies, that believers think they do nothing on their own. For example, there's second Thessalonians 3 verse 6-10
6*In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7*For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8*nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9*We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10*For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
Plus there are several Protestant faiths that consider good works part of the path to salvation. Lutheranism isn't one of those, however. Most faithful would concede that God works in mysterious ways, and the best one can do is pray that God works good through you. It's vanity to assume that you know God's plan and are implementing it. ...Unless you hear the voice of God in your head telling you so. Then you're either a prophet or crazy. I don't know who get's to make the call on 'prophet'.
I'll disagree with this one too (except, I do think the article is funny). After all, "The Lord helps those who help themselves"
OK. That's not really anywhere in the bible. But it's pretty clear that there is no basis for a belief, along the lines of what Hyfi implies, that believers think they do nothing on their own. For example, there's second Thessalonians 3 verse 6-10
6*In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers and sisters, to keep away from every believer who is idle and disruptive and does not live according to the teaching[a] you received from us. 7*For you yourselves know how you ought to follow our example. We were not idle when we were with you, 8*nor did we eat anyone’s food without paying for it. On the contrary, we worked night and day, laboring and toiling so that we would not be a burden to any of you. 9*We did this, not because we do not have the right to such help, but in order to offer ourselves as a model for you to imitate. 10*For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: “The one who is unwilling to work shall not eat.”
Plus there are several Protestant faiths that consider good works part of the path to salvation. Lutheranism isn't one of those, however. Most faithful would concede that God works in mysterious ways, and the best one can do is pray that God works good through you. It's vanity to assume that you know God's plan and are implementing it. ...Unless you hear the voice of God in your head telling you so. Then you're either a prophet or crazy. I don't know who get's to make the call on 'prophet'.
I have been involved with many different churches over the years and most recently Calvary Chapel, a non-denomination church and what I wrote above is how they act and think. I realize my statement should not have been all encompassing.
The point I was trying to make is that without faith, I get thru the day where many believers think that God gets them thru the day.
Now, just maybe, God gets both the believers AND the non-believers thru the day OR, Both the believers and non-believers both get thru the day because God does not do anything for either because he does not exist or he just does not get down to the minute level of each individuals complete life.
Just remember, God answers all your prayers.
The answer is just usually NO
Feanor
10-10-2012, 10:32 AM
...
Well, praise is really a form of thanks for blessings bestowed. From my Lutheran upbringings, my take on the doctrine is that we don't, on our own merits deserve blessings, so it's right to be thankful and praise God for the good in our lives. It's beyond man's ability to comprehend God or God's motives but not beyond us to be thankful for the good. When something 'bad' happens, well, its not in mankind's right to judge god, ergo you can't blame god. You can be angry with God, however. Lot's of examples of that.
Summary: I don't think there is any thing wrong with imbalance you point out. It's quite logical. Them's just the rules of Faith.
...
Yep, but it's these rule that bring faith into disrepute in my books.
BTW, you Lutheran take isn't much different than my Calvinist take ...
...
CHAPTER 6
Of the Fall of Man, of Sin, and of
the Punishment thereof.
I. Our first parents, begin seduced by the subtily and temptations of Satan, sinned in eating the forbidden fruit. This their sin God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel, to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
II. By this sin they fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and so became dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
III. They being the root of mankind, the guilt of this sin was imputed, and the same death in sin and corrupted nature conveyed to all their posterity, descending from them by original generation.
IV. From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
V. This corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and all the motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
VI. Every sin, both original and actual, being a transgression of the righteous law of God, and contrary thereunto, doth, in its own nature, bring guilt upon the sinner, whereby he is bound over to the wrath of God, and curse of the law, and so made subject to death, with all miseries spiritual, temporal, and eternal.
StevenSurprenant
10-11-2012, 07:28 AM
Because what they "believe" impacts everyone...
...they are 100% willing to drop that placeholder theory when new evidence comes along and knocks it down. Religious faith is an entirely different animal.
For something to be held as significant theory in science it always has a tremendous amount of evidence (discovered through tests) to verify that it would be highly improbable and unlikely for the theory not to be true.
Faith implies belief beyond any doubt (based on ZERO evidence, ZERO facts)
... reducing ignorance and increasing people's knowledge and increase their ability to examine and think for themselves is my day job. That doesn't stop when I walk out of the classroom.
All well said!
You are completely correct in that science is constantly being revised, whether it be what we believe to be the beginning of creation, evolution, or any other area of science we choose. When Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity it held strong until Einstein theorized that what we call gravity is actually a result of space curvature surrounding a mass. From this he also predicted that the passing of time for an object within a gravitational field is different relative to an observer outside that field. String-theory might possibly change our understanding of gravity in a much more profound way than Einstein's theory changed our understanding of Newton's discovery.
I find science infinitely more fascinating and wondrous than religion. We've only actually just begun discovering the realities of our existence and what we will know someday will make today's knowledge seem naive. Go back 200 years and try to describe the world that we live in today. People back then wouldn't be able to understand and would probably think you were crazy.
I used to not care whether someone believed in a religion but, as you said, it affects us all. Religion is two sided, it has it's good side, it's ugly side, it's good people, and it's evil people.
Ask a religious person why they believe and they will say that's the way they were raised. Ask them if they were raised in a different place where the religion was different, would they believe in the other religion. If they were to answer honestly, they would say yes. We spend our lives being programmed by religion, by government, and by our peers and are completely unaware that it is happening.
BTW, I enjoyed the Richard Dawkins link.
Feanor
10-11-2012, 12:51 PM
...
You are completely correct in that science is constantly being revised, whether it be what we believe to be the beginning of creation, evolution, or any other area of science we choose. When Sir Isaac Newton discovered gravity it held strong until Einstein theorized that what we call gravity is actually a result of space curvature surrounding a mass. From this he also predicted that the passing of time for an object within a gravitational field is different relative to an observer outside that field. String-theory might possibly change our understanding of gravity in a much more profound way than Einstein's theory changed our understanding of Newton's discovery.
I find science infinitely more fascinating and wondrous than religion. We've only actually just begun discovering the realities of our existence and what we will know someday will make today's knowledge seem naive. Go back 200 years and try to describe the world that we live in today. People back then wouldn't be able to understand and would probably think you were crazy. ...
Proper science is fundamentally different from religion because it is a process that tests hypotheses and systematically discards or revises those the don't fine the empirical evidence -- this is the antithesis of religious faith.
However among naive people there is such a thing as "scientism", i.e. the faith that science has all the answers right now. But proper science is a process, not body of knowledge. By it's nature science will never have all the answers.
...
I used to not care whether someone believed in a religion but, as you said, it affects us all. Religion is two sided, it has it's good side, it's ugly side, it's good people, and it's evil people.
...
When you bring it up with religionists all the harm done in the name of religion, they respond that the evil doers are misguided and not proper representatives of the faith: yeah well.
But like Jesus said, "You will know the tree by the fruit it bears". Religion has born a lot of evil.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-11-2012, 05:36 PM
I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in.
I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.
Folks around here are not quite as tolerant as I thought. Respect begats respect, and no respect begats no respect. This is why I have lost respect for some folks(and profoundly for some as well). This kind of topic should never be discussed on a public forum.
Whatever pleasure some are looking for(at the cost of some respect for others), I hope they have found it.
Sir T - perhaps I got off track a little for the "debate's sake" rather than staying on point. I truly and honestly don't care or mind if someone believes in God or is a religious person. I only mind when their beliefs affects me. I am quite sure you would be very upset if you lived in a world run by Jehovah Witnesses and your wife or one of your kids needed a blood transfusion to live but the government said no because under Jehovah Law they've been banned. That is truly and only the thing that bothers me about religion. So long as people pray in peace and leave me out of it and don't enact any law whatsoever that is formed in ANY WAY based on Bible verse then I have no complaints.
But unfortunately, there are SO MANY laws in the U.S. alone that run directly counter to the notion of "the separation of church and state.
One example. I have no problem with suicide. If I am 80 years old and suffering in agonizing pain I want to be allowed to be put out of my misery. Nope - sorry not allowed. Why? religious belief that suicide will send me to hell. Doesn't matter if I don;t believe in hell - doesn't matter that the world is overpopulated and I'd be doing the environment a big favor - it is illegal because of religious voodoo belief. Sure doctors do it under the umbrella of pain management but they dictate what is "pain" and what isn't. Alzheimers is a pain of indignity and basically I want to decide my own fate not some other person who feels he has to run MY LIFE because he believes in whatever he believes in. I won't tell that guy to commit suicide and if he wants to suffer horrific cancer pains for 2 years that's fine by me.
It goes to virtually all of the "liberal" issues I mentioned earlier - woman's body her choice. But many religions basically put women on the same level as cattle. (how else do we explain why it took so long for them to get the vote?) And that's the supposed "good" religions like Christianity and Catholics. The Taliban just shot a 14 year old girl in the face - for wanting to be educated.
Virtually every human rights policy that succeeds is brought about by secular society or what I termed as soft religious people -
Joe Biden (a religious guy who is not a crackpot and understands that what he believes others don't) versus Ryan (a nut that would put me in a gas chamber if he had any real power)
StevenSurprenant
10-12-2012, 04:39 AM
RGA -
Actually religions effect goes much deeper than direct influence on those that don't believe. I met a guy from Ireland that was visiting the U.S. and he made the comment that he felt so much more relaxed here in the United States. His reason was that in his native country, if you didn't follow the prevailing religion where you lived, people would frown upon and avoid you. Apparently this had an effect on this person mental state of being. I also know a person from Iran than shared the same viewpoint.
Even in the U.S. it was this way many years back. If you were atheist you never mentioned it for the same reasons that I mentioned above.
Fortunately this is changing.
Feanor
10-12-2012, 04:58 AM
I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in. ...
That's ironic, eh? But the answer is obvious: religions belief affect the non-religious -- and the religious of different beliefs -- in ways they'd rather not be affected.
When religionists insist that they should just be left alone with their beliefs regardless of the consequences of those beliefs, it a form of "special pleading", i.e. a logical fallacy.
...
I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.
...
As a religious non-believer, I resent the insinuation that I "don't believe in jack". There a few things that I certainly believe in. One is the right to human dignity; an other is philosophical skepticism.
I am at a loss as to why so many who do not believe in religion would come here bashing it. Why waste your time discussing something you don't believe in? Surely folks have better things to do than to discuss a god they don't believe in.
I guess some do have an agenda to make themselves better than others here. Maybe it makes some feel better that they don't believe in jack, than respect those that believe in something.
Folks around here are not quite as tolerant as I thought. Respect begats respect, and no respect begats no respect. This is why I have lost respect for some folks(and profoundly for some as well). This kind of topic should never be discussed on a public forum.
Whatever pleasure some are looking for(at the cost of some respect for others), I hope they have found it.
Thought, discussion, scientific facts among other things help a person grow and be more open minded and not rigid with a single set of beliefs. I learn from these discussions whether it changes my mind about things or not.
And I am surprised you participated at all in this whole thread after posting this. You must have enjoyed it as much as the others or you would have just passed it by. You had every opportunity to just not respond.
Politics should also not be discussed on a public forum either since your politics are directly correlated to your religious beliefs, or lack of.
Like RGA stated, the Bushwacker took our country and others to war because God influenced him to. That says it all as to why religious beliefs should be totally kept out of political decisions.
Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.
Feanor
10-12-2012, 06:32 AM
...
Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.
High-5, Hyfi. So true
Being a non-believer one tends to feel that life has no "higher" purpose, that there is no one "up there" to help you, etc. Your main consolation is that you aren't in indulging in self-delusion.
On the other hand I've observed religionists not only "feeling better" about themselves, but mock and condemning those who don't believe as they do.
But let's allow that Sir T is liberal religionist, and by that token that there is a wide range of tolerance capacity among religionists of all religions.
In the U.S there are pockets where Atheists are outright attacked and killed for "not believing" in God.
Evolution is a fact and yet it has been continuously attacked by people who have never read anything on the subject, don't understand it when they do read it.
Even with my two pictures above even Biden mentions the bit of not going against the Supreme Court but the Supreme Court which is supposed to be unbiased and supposed to separate Church and State virtually always split right along political and religious lines. Of course there is no separation - how can you separate your beliefs that are part of who you are with that of public policy?
Take this U.S congressman Rep. Broun: Evolution, Embryology, Big Bang Theory Are "Lies Straight From The Pit Of Hell" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rikEWuBrkHc)
This man is saying loud and clear that he has absolutely no intention to separate church from state. Thomas Jefferson is rolling over in his grave.
I can take public policy disagreement over abortion for example. You can make plenty of pro-life arguments that resonate and same for capital punishment and ultimately - the majority rules. (if it is actual number of votes and not votes based on regions having more sway than other reasons even with less people).
If we're going to pretend we live in a "free" society then it should mean you are free to make any choices you want so long as thy don't hurt others. You want to smoke a plant in your house be my guest - has nothing to do with me. You want to advocate against people smoking pot fine but use credible arguments and don't be a hypocrite - Pot's bad but smoking and alcohol are fine? I don't smoke either and rarely drink but just because I don't do it I just feel it's hypocritical - alcohol makes you do crazy stuff and smoking causes cancer - most people who drink also smoke. Pot is just like combining the two except the net results is they're less violent and tend to eat cookies. That helps the economy and Oreo Corporation and potato chip companies everywhere.
And personally speaking I would love there to be a God - I wish so bad that there is one. I would love to see my dad again - And I really get why people are drawn to religions that promise just that and that your next life will be better than this one etc. The idea of immortality is also an exciting prospect. Humans have such massive egos that we are more special than a fish. Everything revolves around us and we are the chosen ones. My Mormon friend claims that how you do in this world determines what level of "God" you get to be in the next life or some such tiered level of goodness. Follow our religion and you get 72 virgins, follow our religion and you'll get to BE a God, follow our religion and go to Heaven a sea of the penultimate levels of happiness, joy, and pleasure.
What's common to all is that you need to hand over a credit card.
I so wish I could suspend my disbelief the way I can when I watch a play or a great film. Dream worlds are often far more exciting and wonderful than real life. The mind is such a creative and intricate device - it can create and imagine and hope. That pesky Vulcan logic comes into play however to ensure we stay grounded in reality and accept some hard truths. Like every other animal we're here to live, spawn, and die. And in the blink of a universal eye we'll be snuffed out of existence like Dino.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-12-2012, 12:16 PM
Thought, discussion, scientific facts among other things help a person grow and be more open minded and not rigid with a single set of beliefs. I learn from these discussions whether it changes my mind about things or not.
This may apply to you, but does it really apply to others. This is not thought or discussion, this is an outright bashing and disrespect of somebody's beliefs.
And I am surprised you participated at all in this whole thread after posting this. You must have enjoyed it as much as the others or you would have just passed it by. You had every opportunity to just not respond.
I was enjoying it until it got to religion and God bashing. And please, don't make excuses for disrespecting others beliefs. That kind of deflection is disingenuous at best.
Politics should also not be discussed on a public forum either since your politics are directly correlated to your religious beliefs, or lack of.
I agree.
Like RGA stated, the Bushwacker took our country and others to war because God influenced him to. That says it all as to why religious beliefs should be totally kept out of political decisions.
So this one person decision makes religion and God bad. How does anyone know God told him anything, folks lie about that all the time. His actions do not give you carte blanche to disrespect all christians and their beliefs
Not believing does not make anyone feel better than the next guy but I have surely been treated the opposite way at times.
So you let how you were treated by a few mislead christians allow you to disrespect other christians who mean you no harm to you at all.
Don't complain about how you are treated if you are going to turn around and disrespect others beliefs. That is kind of hypocritical don't you think?.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-12-2012, 12:18 PM
That's ironic, eh? But the answer is obvious: religions belief affect the non-religious -- and the religious of different beliefs -- in ways they'd rather not be affected.
When religionists insist that they should just be left alone with their beliefs regardless of the consequences of those beliefs, it a form of "special pleading", i.e. a logical fallacy.
As a religious non-believer, I resent the insinuation that I "don't believe in jack". There a few things that I certainly believe in. One is the right to human dignity; an other is philosophical skepticism.
None of this is an open door for the kind of disrespect you have shown here.
I am really disappointed.......
Feanor
10-12-2012, 01:04 PM
None of this is an open door for the kind of disrespect you have shown here.
I am really disappointed.......
Don't be sanctimonious. We couldn't begin to count the times you've called various people, "liar", for example.
Is possible to respect the person but not respect some of his/her beliefs? Yes, it is.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-12-2012, 08:47 PM
Don't be sanctimonious. We couldn't begin to count the times you've called various people, "liar", for example.
Is possible to respect the person but not respect some of his/her beliefs? Yes, it is.
No, in some cases the two are intertwinded.
I do not call anyone a liar unless they keep on repeating a myth over and over again.
You have no context to this comment. I would never call anyone a liar based on their religious beliefs, but their audio and video knowledge is another story.
I know you understand compartmentalization. There are some things that are free to be discussed, and things that are wise to be discussed. You are showing a profound lack of wisdom in favor of your right, and it is insulting others with your freedom. So don't give me your sactimonious BS, it has nothing to do with that.
StevenSurprenant
10-13-2012, 03:51 AM
Pot is just like combining the two except the net results is they're less violent and tend to eat cookies. That helps the economy and Oreo Corporation and potato chip companies everywhere.
LOL...I surprised that the cookie companies aren't on the legalize pot bandwagon!
Feanor
10-13-2012, 05:10 AM
...
I know you understand compartmentalization. There are some things that are free to be discussed, and things that are wise to be discussed. You are showing a profound lack of wisdom in favor of your right, and it is insulting others with your freedom. So don't give me your sactimonious BS, it has nothing to do with that.
The ability to compartmentalized is a good thing in an individual and you have this capability -- in this case it's a matter of keeping personal religious belief out of the real world.
What I do objective is the "special pleading" with respect to personal religious belief that it must be excluded from criticism and debate. Here, Off Topic we discuss many things, including politics for example: why not philosophical/religious issues?
Let the moderators exclude religion and I will observe that rule; they haven't -- it isn't taboo. If don't want your feelings hurt, stay away from the discussions; don't come in and castigate those participating. As Truman said, "If you can't take heat, get out of the kitchen".
When I was young I often heard advice from my mother and others, "Never discuss religion or politics". Good advice if you aren't ever willing to risk giving offend, (or are selling a used car).
Earlier I suggested that this thread be closed: that suggestion still stands.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-13-2012, 06:27 AM
The ability to compartmentalized is a good thing in an individual and you have this capability -- in this case it's a matter of keeping personal religious belief out of the real world.
What I do objective is the "special pleading" with respect to personal religious belief that it must be excluded from criticism and debate. Here, Off Topic we discuss many things, including politics for example: why not philosophical/religious issues?
Let the moderators exclude religion and I will observe that rule; they haven't -- it isn't taboo. If don't want your feelings hurt, stay away from the discussions; don't come in and castigate those participating. As Truman said, "If you can't take heat, get out of the kitchen".
When I was young I often heard advice from my mother and others, "Never discuss religion or politics". Good advice if you aren't ever willing to risk giving offend, (or are selling a used car).
Earlier I suggested that this thread be closed: that suggestion still stands.
You should have listened to your mother before it costs you a friend. In the future, I will be sure to disrespect your beliefs as profoundly as you have disrespected mine.
StevenSurprenant
10-13-2012, 06:44 AM
Arggg! Sir T asking for respect when he is one of the most disrespectful people I have encountered.
Feanor
10-13-2012, 06:54 AM
You should have listened to your mother before it costs you a friend. In the future, I will be sure to disrespect your beliefs as profoundly as you have disrespected mine.
Feel free.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-14-2012, 05:00 PM
Feel free.
Trust me when I say I do.........
thekid
10-14-2012, 07:33 PM
Well the nice thing about this thread is that in about 22 days it will disappear and then everyone can go back to criticizing the gear choices of others......... :D
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-14-2012, 09:19 PM
Arggg! Sir T asking for respect when he is one of the most disrespectful people I have encountered.
It is interesting that stupid $hit has the same first letters as your moniker.So you think your comments have affordorded the high road. Well I guess if the curb was you high road, then you have met your standards.
Feanor
10-15-2012, 03:48 AM
Trust me when I say I do.........
I can take a lot of heat without wilting ...
On the other hand, you, I, and various other people here would do well to emulate that relentlessly gracious & gentlemanly, some-time member, Bernd.
I am still unsure why asking why and how people can believe certain stories with absolutely no proof they ever happened or happened the way they are told or if we are supposed to believe them word for word or that they mean something else......is disrespecting someone's religion. We don't even know what religion the complainer is anyway.
I never said anyone was wrong for believing, I just question how and ask for an explanation of how certain stories could have ever happened the way they were written.
I never told anyone they should not have faith and believe whatever they think they need to believe.
So how having a discussion, asking for real answers to questions, and pointing out flaws in the theory is disrespecting ones religion eludes me.
And why do Christians think their religion is the only right one? That disrespects ALL other religions.
All religions are just different pathways to the same end, a glorious afterlife or whatever one chooses to believe.
Buddha allegedly said many of the same things Jesus allegedly said but many years before Jesus was born. Many other religions existed before Christianity so why are they all wrong and only Christians are now right?
And as for reverse disrespect, go back and read many of Mark's entries back to Feanor, RGA and myself. We have been totally disrespected for not believing what he believes. But that is OK I guess.
Yeah, I went too far and called Mark (and myself for that matter) an inbred. He pushed my buttons. I will try not to let that happen again.
Feanor
10-15-2012, 05:53 AM
I am still unsure why asking why and how people can believe certain stories with absolutely no proof they ever happened or happened the way they are told or if we are supposed to believe them word for word or that they mean something else......is disrespecting someone's religion. We don't even know what religion the complainer is anyway.
....
This was certainly my question too. In fact I heard many religious people object to this questioning. When they are people who insist on objective information & reasoning in all other areas, it strikes me as a "special pleading" for religion. Does religion deserve this privilege? They say 'yes'; I say 'no'.
BTW, I meant no personal disrespect to the most recent complainer but, typical of these special pleaders, he chose to take insult from my purely intellectual position.
Smokey
10-15-2012, 02:00 PM
And why do Christians think their religion is the only right one? That disrespects ALL other religions.
That is not exclusive to christianity as followers of other religions do the same thing. Jews say they are the chosen people and Muslims say they are the true believers. So who you are going to believe :)
All religions are just different pathways to the same end, a glorious afterlife or whatever one chooses to believe.
One really don't need [organized] religion beliefs to get to heaven as you will be judged by your actions, not your beliefs.
That is not exclusive to christianity as followers of other religions do the same thing. Jews say they are the chosen people and Muslims say they are the true believers. So who you are going to believe :)
One really don't need [organized] religion beliefs to get to heaven as you will be judged by your actions, not your beliefs.
Preaching to the choir on both points, Smokey. I don't believe any of them but was just making a point because disrespect was pointed at me by a hypocrite who by being one, disses the others by the belief they have.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-15-2012, 05:26 PM
Preaching to the choir on both points, Smokey. I don't believe any of them but was just making a point because disrespect was pointed at me by a hypocrite who by being one, disses the others by the belief they have.
Excuse me fool, but I have not criticized anyone for not believing in God. I don't do that, it is not how I roll. But you were dissing religions, a profound personal thing that in the end disses the person that do believe in God(whoever that is for the individual) So your weak attempts at deflecting are rebuffed.
Nobody disrespected you, you did that to yourself by negatively commenting on peoples religion. That was stupid, but not above you at all.
Sometimes the wisdom if discussing personal ideaology is stronger than the right to do so. I am sorry you are too stupid to see this.
Sir Terrence the Terrible
10-15-2012, 05:32 PM
I can take a lot of heat without wilting ...
On the other hand, you, I, and various other people here would do well to emulate that relentlessly gracious & gentlemanly, some-time member, Bernd.
And you can't start the process by using wisdom by discontining your participation in this discussion. You are disrespecting others, and those others are losing respect for you.
You are talking out of two sides of your mouth here.
Feanor
10-15-2012, 05:50 PM
And you can't start the process by using wisdom by discontining your participation in this discussion. You are disrespecting others, and those others are losing respect for you. ...
I have had occasion to defer to you, to agree with you, and to disagree with you. You are content when I do the former but accuse me (and others) of disrespecting you when we do the last.
You are talking out of two sides of your mouth here.
So it might seem, but life is, in fact, complicated.
Florian
10-15-2012, 10:43 PM
Excuse me fool
¨
and
Nobody disrespected you
Bless you Sir, its a classic :21:
¨
Bless you Sir, its a classic :21:
Yeah, just go back a little further and see just how many times he has called people disrespectful names, yet he has been crying the victim for pages now.
Me and Feanor may talk out both sides of our face by his judgement, but he talks completely out of his ass.
If you don't like the discussion, stay out of it and your poor wittle feewings won't get hurt.
By the way, Mods....is this the most hit thread in the last 10 years?
StevenSurprenant
10-16-2012, 06:10 AM
Convoluted is the term that describes his thought process. It does no good telling him because he doesn't understand.
So let us review Sir Ritiousness better than all thru this thread
On bashing the Mormon Religion-
So based on that last statement, you Mormons are not allowed to think for yourself. God does not want Robots, but the Mormon Church does. I wouldn't last ten milliseconds in the Mormon Church, and somehow that makes me really happy.
Not much here to be so lofty over........please troll somewhere else. .
And then his deflection after insulting the Mormons-
I have no understanding of why anyone would come here, insult people because of their faith, and make any attempt to dissuade them from believing in whatever they want to by presenting the opinions of a mere man.
And another cover-
And please, don't make excuses for disrespecting others beliefs. That kind of deflection is disingenuous at best.
Don't complain about how you are treated if you are going to turn around and disrespect others beliefs. That is kind of hypocritical don't you think?.
On treating others respectfully-
Now piss off.......
He doesn't hang out here, he spews up here.
RG=Regurgitated
A=out of the A$$
Say take your link(and your stupid opinions), and shove it up you bum.
So, you can take all of your comments and shove them straight up your stupid(to match the rest of you) a$$.
It is interesting that stupid $hit has the same first letters as your moniker.So you think your comments have affordorded the high road. Well I guess if the curb was you high road, then you have met your standards.
On Deflection-
You call it name calling, I call it identifying who you really are.
On Bashing Atheists-
Beware of the rantings of a psychopathic atheist?
And then deflection-
Excuse me fool, but I have not criticized anyone for not believing in God.
And the results are in-
Arggg! Sir T asking for respect when he is one of the most disrespectful people I have encountered.
There is no 'Turn the other cheek'
There is no 'Treat others as you would have them treat you'
There is no 'Practice what you preach'
It's only talk, Elephant Talk!
And I am supposed to be worried that he lost respect for me?
I will never be able to sleep again as I lay awake and worry about what he thinks.
GMichael
10-16-2012, 07:28 AM
I think the steel cage is bending.
markw
10-16-2012, 07:57 AM
You got it.
That's all this site is worth anymore.
You've taken what used to be an audio site and made it a septic tank full of haters..
Proud of yourself?
Feanor
10-16-2012, 08:54 AM
You got it.
That's all this site is worth anymore.
You've taken what used to be an audio site and made it a septic tank full of haters..
Proud of yourself?
Same advice to you as to the Terrible Terrence: if you get all hurt & offended by a philosophical discussion of personal religiosity, don't participate -- and don't berate those who can handle it.
markw
10-16-2012, 09:42 AM
Same advice to you as to the Terrible Terrence: if you get all hurt & offended by a philosophical discussion of personal religiosity, don't participate -- and don't berate those who can handle it.You're just a frail old man who lives thanks to pills and will most likely be the first one to test your theory about a god or no god.
I hope you're ready to face your time like a manly man, not whining like so many others when the rubber meets the road.
Y'all are like the monkeys at the zoo: Flinging poo and jerking off so all can see because that's all you can do to express yourselves, and you're proud of it.
Feanor
10-16-2012, 09:59 AM
You're just a frail old man who lives thanks to pills and will most likely be the first one to test your theory about a god or no god.
I hope you're ready to face your time like a manly man, not whining like so many others when the rubber meets the road.
Y'all are like the monkeys at the zoo: Flinging poo and jerking off so all can see because that's all you can do to express yourselves, and you're proud of it.
markw remains true to form. :arf:
markw remains true to form. :arf:
Talk about a "Hater".....looks like he hates us. Another one I will surely lose sleep over....yeah right.
Mark, bend over and turn the other cheek
markw
10-16-2012, 10:17 AM
Talk about a "Hater".....looks like he hates us. Another one I will surely lose sleep over....yeah right.
Mark, bend over and turn the other cheekI merely pointed out the harsh realities of bills' plight.
And, nice insult there, guy. Sorry, "bending over and turning the other cheek" isn't my style.
It's nice you've decided to add yet another direction to this formerly political discussion. I'll bet JM is going to be really, really happy about that insult.
Amazing... Every time I think you've decended about as low as you can go, you manage to dig even deeper...
I merely pointed out the harsh realities of bills' plight.
And, nice insult there, guy. Sorry, "bending over and turning the other cheek" isn't my style.
It's nice you've decided to add yet another direction to this formerly political discussion. I'll bet JM is going to be really, really happy about that insult.
Amazing... Every time I think you've decended about as low as you can go, you manage to dig even deeper...
Don't worry, I can keep up with you
JohnMichael
10-16-2012, 10:37 AM
I wish we had a Forum called the Sewer.
WARNING! WARNING!
Tomorrow 10/17/12 at 12:00 PM DEST this thread will be closed. Do not PM me but get your hate out while you have time. We as a community do not need to go any lower than we have.
I merely pointed out the harsh realities of bills' plight.
Unfortunately for you, he will be going to the same exact place as you, 6 feet under or in an urn.
I wish we had a Forum called the Sewer.
WARNING! WARNING!
Tomorrow 10/17/12 at 12:00 PM DEST this thread will be closed. Do not PM me but get your hate out while you have time. We as a community do not need to go any lower than we have.
Good, should have left it closed the first time
markw
10-16-2012, 11:13 AM
Good, should have left it closed the first timeFunny, it was one of your posts that got it closed then, too.
Great job!
Feanor
10-16-2012, 11:18 AM
I merely pointed out the harsh realities of bills' plight. ...
Gosh, Mark, thanks for your Christian concern. :thumbsup:
You're just a frail old man who lives thanks to pills and will most likely be the first one to test your theory about a god or no god.
...
And yet I'm not worried. Granted, I don't believe in Heaven, but then I don't believe in Hell either ... now if I were YOU, I'd be worried big time.
GMichael
10-16-2012, 11:35 AM
If everyone were to turn around and look in the distance, we might just be able to make out the line that was crossed.
Florian
10-16-2012, 12:50 PM
For me its simple: If you believe in a god, take whats written on the books as "fact" then you Sir are an "idiot"..... Does this qualify for this thread?
markw
10-16-2012, 01:37 PM
An atheist was walking through the woods one day in the Canadian wilderness, admiring all that evolution had created. "What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
Turning to look, he saw a 10-foot bear beginning to charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could down the path.
He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow, he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again & the bear was even closer. His heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground.
As he rolled over to pick himself up, the bear was right over him, reaching for him with it's left paw and raising its right paw to strike him....he yelled out, "OH MY GOD!"
Time stopped.......
The bear froze.......
The forest was silent............
Even the river stopped moving.
As a brilliant light shone upon the man, a thunderous voice came from all around,
GOD SPOKE:
"YOU DENY MY EXISTENCE FOR ALL THESE YEARS, YOU MOCK ME AND MY FOLLOWERS. YOU TEACH OTHERS THAT I DON'T EXIST AND EVEN CREDIT CREATION TO SOME COSMIC ACCIDENT. DO YOU EXPECT ME TO HELP YOU OUT OF THIS PREDICAMENT? "AM I TO COUNT YOU NOW AS A BELIEVER?"
Difficult as it was, the atheist looked directly into the light & said, "It would be hypocritical to ask to be a Christian after all these years, but perhaps you could make the bear a Christian?"
"VERY WELL," said GOD.
The light went out...
The river ran...
The sounds of the forest resumed..
And the bear dropped down on his knees, brought both paws together, bowed his head and spoke:
"Lord, thank you for this food which I am about to receive, Amen."
Finally, remember the words of that great philosopher, Voltaire who once boasted, “In twenty years Christianity will be no more. My single hand shall destroy the edifice it took twelve apostles to rear.”
Some years later, Voltaire’s house was used by the Geneva Bible Society to print Bibles.
TTFN
That was a great story (read similar ones many times) - I am sure it's told at many a churches as a kind of Aesop Fable.
"A Christian was walking through the woods one day in the American wilderness, admiring all that God created. "What majestic trees! What a powerful river! What beautiful animals!" he said to himself. As he was walking alongside the river, he heard a rustling in the bushes behind him.
Turning to look, he saw a 10-foot bear beginning to charge towards him. He ran as fast as he could down the path.
He looked over his shoulder and saw that the bear was rapidly closing on him. Somehow, he ran even faster, so scared that tears came to his eyes. He looked again & the bear was even closer. His heart pounding in his chest, he tried to run faster yet. But alas, he tripped and fell to the ground.
As he rolled over to pick himself up, the bear was right over him, reaching for him with it's left paw and raising its right paw to strike him....he yelled out, "OH MY GOD!"
Time didn't stop because it doesn't
The bear didn't freeze because bears don't understand English
The forest was not silent because they aren't
Even the river didn't stop moving because rivers don't understand English either.
As a brilliant light shone upon the man (the Sun), a thunderous voice came from all around,
It was the Bear letting out a thunderous ROAAAR and he ate the Christian.
The End.
Bears don't care whether you're religious or not.
Personally I like my fable better. The moral of the story is to bring UDAP bear spray and a big ass gun.
Florian
10-17-2012, 01:50 AM
LOL ..... Thats wonderfu! Nothing hits like reality....
StevenSurprenant
10-17-2012, 03:02 AM
John, I agree this got out of hand, but understand this type of mob behavior starts with a single uncivil act.
The thread took a downturn because of personal vile insults from one person. This person has a long history of acting in this manner which, for some reason, is tolerated without a word on this forum. I have also been a victim of this person onslaughts and try as I might, I also got caught up in his insanity, which is contrary to my nature, yet it happened.
This thread will be closed soon which is a good thing, but as long as Sir T is allowed to continue personally berating individuals, as he has so aptly demonstrated since I've been on this forum, the problems will continue into the future.
I realize that his acts of "hate" are tolerated perhaps due to what he offers this board, but it is not worth it if he angers members and drives them away. He is on my ignore list which is ironic since he is also a moderator. That should tell you a lot about his character.
I've been to many audio forums and I like this one the best. I like the way it's laid out on my screen and I like all the people here, minus one. As a long time member I've seen this board go from one of the most active boards to one where we have to respond to postings written years ago. If it is to stay alive personal attacks need to be moderated more closely especially when the name calling begins.
When I had my first encounter with Sir T, ForeverAutumn stepped in and brought me back to my senses. It didn't stop Sir T from spewing his hate and name calling, but it was a step in the right direction. I realize that over moderating can ruin a board, but there has to be some standard applied to members whom show a strong tendency toward lack of civility.
JohnMichael
10-17-2012, 05:24 AM
The countdown has begun. Steven this has happened before. I originally moved it to the Steel Cage and that may have given members permission to get colorful. Few have been on their best behavior myself included. I do not think anything more need be said on these issues.
GMichael
10-17-2012, 06:54 AM
I'm taking my popcorn and going home now.
markw
10-17-2012, 07:01 AM
The only reason many hang here is so they can dog-pile on people on subjects that "real" audio forums consider off limits.
So far, I can only thik of one subject that's taboo. I think y'all can figure that out from this thread.
JohnMichael
10-17-2012, 07:10 AM
The only reason many hang here is so they can dog-pile on people on subjects that "real" audio forums consider off limits.
So far, I can only thik of one subject that's taboo. I think y'all can figure that out from this thread.
Marriage equality?
GMichael
10-17-2012, 07:20 AM
White gloves.
JohnMichael
10-17-2012, 07:32 AM
White gloves.
Do you mean latex exam gloves complete with hand cream?
markw
10-17-2012, 07:34 AM
Marriage equality?Close, but no cigar.
GMichael
10-17-2012, 07:41 AM
Do you mean latex exam gloves complete with hand cream?
Do they come ribbed?
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