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bobsticks
06-18-2012, 10:33 AM
"The Obama administration announced Friday that it will stop deporting law-abiding young undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and will instead begin granting them work permits."

My initial inclination is to start throwing things.

Obviously, I have some issues with the Constitutionality of this thing...I mean, can we really just EO an edict to break the law?

Further, I can't see how this will help the economy at all. In fact, won't this expand the number of potential people enrolling for unemployment benefits?

I'm looking for a little wisdom here...

Hyfi
06-18-2012, 10:53 AM
Close the borders and deport every one that is not here legally, no matter what. All they do is steel jobs and benefits from people who deserve them and are legally here. Or there....

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-18-2012, 12:07 PM
Close the borders and deport every one that is not here legally, no matter what. All they do is steel jobs and benefits from people who deserve them and are legally here. Or there....


There is ample evidence that this is counter-productive. Look at what happen to states that created strong anti-immigrant laws like Georgia and Alabama. They have crops rotting on the vine, and are unable to fill backroom restaurant jobs. Employers in these states want these kinds of laws repealed. Remember, we have a aging population, who will do those difficult to fill jobs in the future.

Next we can talk about the cost of doing what you propose, and why politicians know you cannot just deport them all.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-18-2012, 12:15 PM
"The Obama administration announced Friday that it will stop deporting law-abiding young undocumented immigrants who came to the U.S. as children and will instead begin granting them work permits."

My initial inclination is to start throwing things.

Obviously, I have some issues with the Constitutionality of this thing...I mean, can we really just EO an edict to break the law?

Further, I can't see how this will help the economy at all. In fact, won't this expand the number of potential people enrolling for unemployment benefits?

I'm looking for a little wisdom here...

Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. Granting them work permits does not equal giving them access to unemployment benefits - you need a social security number for that. This also is not a path to citizenship.

This really pertains to exceptional students who are high achievers in education, or serving in the armed forces. Our lack of a comprehensive immigration policy is forcing us to deport some of the best of the best for reason they could not control. If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?

Feanor
06-18-2012, 12:47 PM
The US attitudes and legislation re. illegal immigration are grossly hypocritical.

Immigration, legal or otherwise, happens because a country needs more or cheaper labor and people are willing to come to work. Illegal immigration because American want labor but aren't willing to pay legitimately competitive wage for it. Let's face it, when you employ an "undocumented worker", you can avoid a paying a competitive wage, payroll taxes, and benefits; further you can impose unreasonable demands and avoid workplace safety rules, etc.

Clearly a covert lobby exists in the USA that favors illegal immigration, and this lobby has seen to it that there isn't truly effective legislation and enforcement to minimize it. It's key to understand that what is needed is to deincentivize employers of illegal immigrants at least as much as the illegals themselves.

First, and obviously, it must be major civil (not necessarily criminal) offence to knowingly employ an illegal OR unknowingly do so when one ought to have take reasonable measures to confirm their status, (sorry if seems to imply profiling).

Secondly, but less obviously, the ability of employers to blackmail their illegal employees need to be removed. E.g. it needs to be possible for an illegal to report sub-minimum wages and other employer abuses without fear of deportation.

frenchmon
06-18-2012, 03:07 PM
I have seen first hand the problem. While living in Durham North Carolina the government let them come in for cheaper labor. You know the Smithfield pork plaint down in Carolina? They wanted illegals because they do not want to pay fair wages. Construction works are not paid a fair wage either....so it's the illegals that take the jobs and build the houses. Government also let's them live in state for 7 years without paying tax.

bobsticks
06-18-2012, 04:34 PM
Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. Granting them work permits does not equal giving them access to unemployment benefits - you need a social security number for that. This also is not a path to citizenship.

I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.

I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.


This really pertains to exceptional students who are high achievers in education, or serving in the armed forces. Our lack of a comprehensive immigration policy is forcing us to deport some of the best of the best for reason they could not control. If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?

Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.

This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.

Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.

To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.

Hyfi
06-18-2012, 04:36 PM
There is ample evidence that this is counter-productive. Look at what happen to states that created strong anti-immigrant laws like Georgia and Alabama. They have crops rotting on the vine, and are unable to fill backroom restaurant jobs. Employers in these states want these kinds of laws repealed. Remember, we have a aging population, who will do those difficult to fill jobs in the future.

Next we can talk about the cost of doing what you propose, and why politicians know you cannot just deport them all.

OK Fine, just deport the parents who knowingly came here illegally. And Close the borders. We don't need any more.

What we do need is Americans to start being a little more hard working and less out for entitlement. We need to reel Capitalism in some and people need to stop being so greedy and pay a decent wage for a days work instead of getting rich while raping their employees.

I get that illegals are more prone to take jobs where the employers hide the payroll. Fits both agendas. But, 2 wrongs don't make it right.

It's also time that the handouts are less than what one would make on minimum wage if they expect people to work instead of stay home and collect.

Our whole society is in debt up to our eyeballs and a lot of the money pays for all that is wrong, not what is right.

bobsticks
06-18-2012, 04:40 PM
Blah, blah, blah...

Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.

Feanor
06-18-2012, 06:43 PM
Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.
Well, blah, blah yourself. 'Scuse me for looking at the big picture, but I'll guarantee that the failure to do that will result in the problem remaining unremedied forever.

Really? Number of "undocumented" now up to 18 million"? Wow, 5% of the population? That's an absurd state of affairs.

Frankly as I see it the President's edict indicates the fundamentally contradictory attitude Americans have to the issue of immigration, fraught as it is by self-interest of both those for & against.

BTW, lay off the "anti-American" stuff: it's bogus. Criticism of various things that happen in the USA doesn't constitute anti-Americanism. I always try to offer constructive criticism -- well it seems constructive to me; if it doesn't to you maybe it's because your brain is wedged in a reactionary disposition.

Bear in mind that if you were a true "libertarian", (apart from there being no such thing), you would pose no bounds at all to immigration -- you'd just let the market decide who comes in.

Feanor
06-18-2012, 06:48 PM
Keep this in mind Sticks, these are people who PARENTS bought them into this country illegally. We are not talking about people who knowingly broke the law, but kids who had to follow their parents. This is the only country they know. ....
... If my parents brought me here illegally at two years old, how is that my fault? Then how can you return me to a country I know nothing about, or perhaps cannot speak the language? Especially if I am already serving in the armed forces, or am valedictorian of my high school class?
WTF?!? What's this talk of fairness? Compassion even? That's damned liberal talk.

dingus
06-19-2012, 01:45 AM
I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.
Thoreau, Parks and many others have shown that not all laws are just... only putting that out there for some reference on what is legal or illegal. on the point of bearing the responsibility of a citizen, for those born on US soil there arent any requirements for maintaining citizenship outside those made by individual choice (expats, traitors).



I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.
actually we do... handicapped, disabled, married, elderly etc.



Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.

This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.
the authority of the office allows the President to enact policy in regards to enforcement of federal law. it may very well be only an election year ploy, but its still perfectly constitutional.



Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.
i like this idea. the US became a great country mostly because of an open immigration policy. methinks it might do us some good in these times as well.



To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.
if an illegal immigrant is paying income taxes would they meet a requirement of civic responsibility?

GMichael
06-19-2012, 06:28 AM
I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

Thank you for playing by the rules.

ForeverAutumn
06-19-2012, 06:51 AM
I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

Thank you for playing by the rules.

That seems to make the most sense to me. Sure it's not the child's fault that she was brought into the country illegally, but what's stopping her from applying for citizenship once she's old enough? If you're old enough for the governement to grant you a work permit then you should be old enough to apply for citizenship.

Why not just help them be here legally? They should earn their right to priviledges by becoming a citizen.

GMichael
06-19-2012, 07:01 AM
That seems to make the most sense to me. Sure it's not the child's fault that she was brought into the country illegally, but what's stopping her from applying for citizenship once she's old enough? If you're old enough for the governement to grant you a work permit then you should be old enough to apply for citizenship.

Why not just help them be here legally? They should earn their right to priviledges by becoming a citizen.

It's a multi-step process. First they'll need a Visa and a work permit. Then a green card (Permanent Resident). Then they have to stay in the country for 2-3 years. (I don't remember how long it was now). Then applying for citizenship is another process.

The whole thing took my wife over 6 years of red tape, but they could at least take that first step.

recoveryone
06-19-2012, 09:12 AM
Many broad statements have been made solely on ones location, background, and interaction with those that fall into this category. Americas history on immigration has always been based on politico views and what advantage can be gain from the current policy. From slavery to the current Hispanic wave, America has changed its immigration laws to suit its own needs, and not by the words placed at the foot of the Statue of Liberty.

After Slavery, the Chinese were welcome to build the railroad, once done laws changed to restrict all Chinese coming to America, Same was done in early 1900s with the same Hispanic group who was the major labor force in the Southwest. Once the industrial machines could replace the manpower, immigration and drug laws changed (Weed was legal and heavy use by Hispanics). The Japanese during WWII, and during the 80's if you were Cuban you could stay, but if you were from Haiti you were sent back.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-19-2012, 11:50 AM
I don't care that much about the circumstances because illegal is illegal.Lest you think I've turned fascist, let's look at the pertinent characteristic embodying "illegal"...to wit: not baring the same responsibility of a citizen.

Sticks, you cannot seperate the circumstances because that is the basis for which this law got passed. As a two year old, I am not responsible directly to any government, I am the responsibility of my parents. If they go left, I have to go left. If they cross a boarder illegally with me in tow, I have no choice whatsoever in the decision making process, or whatever outcome happens once we get there. The DREAM act compassionately addresses the fact that some of these children grow up to be exceptional law abiding young adults, and we should not turn whatever contribution they can give this country away.


I'm sure you of all people will agree that we can't make special rules for special classes of people.

We have in the past though. Affirmative Action is special rules for a special class of people - folks that have been victims of purposeful racism. In this case, our ignoring a long standing problem has put is in a position that we cannot afford the easy way out. That is to round all illegals up and deport them. That is a budget busting proposition.




Well, moving beyond the fact that the people you describe aren't doing the tasks that you mentioned, these are exactly the kind of upstanding folks that would make great citizens. My problem arises not necessarily with the folks but the method.

I am sure you are well aware of the dynamic that is hitting this country. It is called paralysis. We cannot get anything done because we are so polarized, and nobody wants to put their political career on the line even to do the right thing. This is the right thing even if it is just temporary. Somebody has to make a move since neither the house of senate seems capable or willing to do so. If they had before this problem got 8-12 million people bad, then we would not be talking about this issue. It is just like small things happening to a car that leads to major expensive things. If you don't deal with those small things, they come back to bite you as a huge thing.


This President seems intent on making this a political issue or at least forcing the Republcans to make a stand that he believes will be disfavored by certain voting blocks. In so doing he's giving a blanket edict for an adminstrative arm of the government to, with purpose and intent, not do it's job.

Everything these days is political..even when it is not. Here is the reality. If we had a Republican President who was looking to score points with Latino's, they would have done exactly the same thing. They got beat to the punch, and were simply out maneuvered here. Keep in mind, this is only for the next two years. The House and Senate have two years to address this band-aid, and I am willing to bet the forces of the current majority in this country will not let this happen. The Tea Party came into existence to address this very issue - to create policies and an environment that is more like the 40's and 50's where the white majority ruled all faucets of life, and minorities understand their place and served that majority.


Doesn't this seem half-assed to you. If these folks are of such noble character why don't we offer full amnesty?...that would at least create a mechanism within existing law.

To me this is about the civic responsibility and financial responsibility of citizenship.

Sticks, it is a fact that Hispanics typically vote Democrat, and when they are in large numbers will elected their own to govern them. Some whites in this country see their population shrinking, and see Hispanics growing, and feel they are losing control of power. You have a black/white President, and his cabinet and close staff with more blacks than ever. Some middle and southern whites are scared to death at what they are seeing, and will never let any kind of legislation that allows 8-12 million Democrat voting Hispanics to get their citizenship. THEY WILL NEVER LET IT HAPPEN! All that will do is speed the course of time in which the Hispanic population becomes the majority, and they are in the minority. The word "Amnesty" is a profoundly dirty word to Republicans, and with the Tea Party rising fast within the party, they would never support such a bold and smart move. This is not about civic responsibility, it is about maintaining the current power structure.

We often blame illegal immigrants for falling wages, but wages have been falling long before illegal immigration has become a problem. It is the corporation, companies, and the wealthy that control wages in this country. In order to continue to divide and confuse the masses(while they continue to take more and more power) the elite in this country are attempting(with profound success) in pitting one individual against another. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and it is being used skillfully by the elite to continue to concentrate power into just a few hands. Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-19-2012, 11:54 AM
Bill, this is a very specific case involving specific criteria and fewer than 820,000 of the 18 million "illegals". Please educate yourself to the facts. Your usual anti-American diatribe isn't really useful in this discussion.

Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.

Feanor
06-19-2012, 12:47 PM
...
We often blame illegal immigrants for falling wages, but wages have been falling long before illegal immigration has become a problem. It is the corporation, companies, and the wealthy that control wages in this country. In order to continue to divide and confuse the masses (while they continue to take more and more power) the elite in this country are attempting (with profound success) in pitting one individual against another. Divide and conquer is a very old tactic, and it is being used skillfully by the elite to continue to concentrate power into just a few hands. Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.
Precisely, Sir T. :yesnod: I couldn't have said it better, (though I've tried).

Feanor
06-19-2012, 12:49 PM
Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.
It was reported today that "Asian" immigrants are now outnumbering Latino.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-19-2012, 02:48 PM
It was reported today that "Asian" immigrants are now outnumbering Latino.

Not out numbering them quite yet, but there were certainly more Asians coming into the country in 2010 by a 36 to 31 percent margin. As a percentage of population(and if this rate continues) it will still take decades for Asians to surpass the Hispanic population in this country - and that is if Hispanics stop having the amount of babies they are currently having.

The good thing for Asians is they will do better her than Hispanics have because they are more education and affluent in most cases.

bobsticks
06-19-2012, 04:23 PM
Sticks, the estimated population of illegals is somewhere between 8 and 15 million as of 2009. This economic downturn has caused many of them to return to Mexico, so now we are at a net loss of illegal immigration crossing our borders - there are no jobs here.

Lol, you do realize that there are people besides Mexicans that are involved in the politics of illegal immigration, right? :biggrin5:

(In my own little part of the world Russians and Philipinos are a much greater percentage of that populace, so maybe we think of it from a more "worldy" perspective)

bobsticks
06-19-2012, 04:24 PM
I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

Thank you for playing by the rules.

Thank you, thank you, thank you....a daily, neverending supply of Greenies for you...let's make us some brand-spankin' new, tax-paying citizens!

Feanor
06-19-2012, 06:27 PM
... Gay marriage, abortion, illegal immigration are nothing more than conquer and divide wedge issues that will make people vote against their own financial interests, and we are too stupid to realize this.
And, BTW, we could add labor unions and the supposed greed of teachers, police, and firemen to that list.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-21-2012, 02:52 PM
Lol, you do realize that there are people besides Mexicans that are involved in the politics of illegal immigration, right? :biggrin5:

(In my own little part of the world Russians and Philipinos are a much greater percentage of that populace, so maybe we think of it from a more "worldy" perspective)

Sorry Sticks, but this law for all intended purposes is aimed directly at Mexicans, and every other south of our border country. I am not hearing reports of Russian or Philipino children being separated from their parents because of this issue. They would benefit from this for sure, but they were not really this laws target.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-21-2012, 02:58 PM
Thank you, thank you, thank you....a daily, neverending supply of Greenies for you...let's make us some brand-spankin' new, tax-paying citizens!

If the Democrats were in charge of house and senate, I could see this happening. As long as the Republicans have the house, there is a not a snowballs chance in hell this will happen. This is about long term votes, and Latino's and most minorities don't usually vote their way. This would also infuriate the Tea Party group, and create a further chasm between the old school Republicans politicians and them.

JSE
06-22-2012, 04:28 PM
I say, round them all up. Give them all the paperwork needed to become legal. Then hand them a pen. Don't let them leave until they have filled out all the papers. Once filled out, they are free to go, but must follow all the same rules my wife had to when she came here. Number one on that list to to inform the proper authorities if and when they move.

Thank you for playing by the rules.


Add Locking down the border to that and we would be well on our way to solving the problem. I don't think you can have one without the other. Can you imagine the flood of illegal crossings if they knew all they had to do in sneak over to become legal?

jvc
06-23-2012, 08:19 AM
This country is in a state of extreme unemployment. Now Obama wants to give illegals access to the few jobs that are still out there. We need to get that man out of the white house, as quick as possible. We got change alright! We also need to get all new people into congress and senate. Now Obama's using "executive privilege" to hide papers, that he and others don't want seen. After these three years, a lot of people still don't see him for what he is! Don't give him a second term..............

recoveryone
06-23-2012, 10:18 AM
Thanks for sticking to the topic JVC, if you are looking for work they are hiring pickers for the up coming watermelon harvest this summer in Imperial county, Ca. temps only average around 110-125 and 100 at night.

Feanor
06-23-2012, 10:53 AM
This country is in a state of extreme unemployment. Now Obama wants to give illegals access to the few jobs that are still out there. We need to get that man out of the white house, as quick as possible. We got change alright! We also need to get all new people into congress and senate. Now Obama's using "executive privilege" to hide papers, that he and others don't want seen. After these three years, a lot of people still don't see him for what he is! Don't give him a second term..............
So Obama is trying to get Latino votes by offering a humane option to a small minority of undocumented workers. The impact on the employment situation will be negligible.

The real problem has always been the "wink, nudge" attitude towards illegal immigration by the quiet constituency the benefits from cheap, unregulated labor. Without the eagerness of various farmers, small businesses, and domestic help seekers to exploit these workers, there would be no significant illegal immigrant problem. This constituency, BTW, is heavily Republican.

Recent polls, as hear, show Obama ahead of Romney on almost everything except the economy. The irony is that there is no area where Romney policies would do more harm. "Bribe the Rich" is a 30 year old policy that has only lead to declining real incomes for the middle class; why do voters think that more-of-the-same will work now? Plus austerity in a recession is madness.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-26-2012, 02:46 PM
This country is in a state of extreme unemployment. Now Obama wants to give illegals access to the few jobs that are still out there. We need to get that man out of the white house, as quick as possible.

You obviously do not understand the law at all. It is the kids of illegals who were dragged here by there parents that will benefit from the laws. They had no choice in coming here, their parents did.



We got change alright! We also need to get all new people into congress and senate. Now Obama's using "executive privilege" to hide papers, that he and others don't want seen. After these three years, a lot of people still don't see him for what he is! Don't give him a second term..............

Bush used executive priviledge to hide facts about the Iraq war, are you going to hold him as accountable as you are holding Obama? Probably not, it is only bad when the "other" guy does it.

bobsticks
06-27-2012, 06:42 AM
Bush used executive priviledge to hide facts about the Iraq war, are you going to hold him as accountable as you are holding Obama? Probably not, it is only bad when the "other" guy does it.

T, I think you're engaging in the same kind of polarizing politics against which you have earlier railed. Of course when the "other" guy does it it's wrong but that doesn't change the fact that when "your" guy does it it's wrong too. Two wrongs don't make a right, as it were.

Off topic, my greater concern with the current implementation of Executive Orders (by both Bush2 and the President) is the facilitation of secret keeping and trampling on Civil Rights.

Nixon, who was widely regarded as a political hack and a lizard and a deviant used Executive Orders to enact Affirmative Action, the EPA, and the move off the Gold Standard. This was done to rapidly enact (debatably) needed programs and avoid time consuming debate and political maneuvering. To wit; to address human suffering, also seen multiple times in our nation's history in disaster releif.

Conversely, let's examine "The Fast and the Furious" scandal which essentially breaks down to, "We're going to give untrackable guns to Mexican drug cartels so we can track them...huh? Does that seem like a good idea. And, now EOs are being used to shield non-elected bureaucratic administrators from accountability.

Clearly there's a difference of intent and I don't care if it's the Left or the Right, it's wrong...

dean_martin
06-27-2012, 08:04 AM
After these three years, a lot of people still don't see him for what he is!

I'll bite. What is he?

Feanor
06-27-2012, 08:31 AM
... let's examine "The Fast and the Furious" scandal which essentially breaks down to, "We're going to give untrackable guns to Mexican drug cartels so we can track them...huh? Does that seem like a good idea. And, now EOs are being used to shield non-elected bureaucratic administrators from accountability.

Clearly there's a difference of intent and I don't care if it's the Left or the Right, it's wrong...
Bad idea for sure, but is the intent of the executive order to protect bureaucrats whose reputations are in danger? Or operatives whose lives are in danger? Or was the whole operation just to facilitate a domestic assault weapon ban? We'll never know so opponents are free to make scurrilous speculation.

GMichael
06-27-2012, 08:52 AM
I'll bite. What is he?

A man, but no biting please.:eek6:

(not without a safe word)

dean_martin
06-27-2012, 12:16 PM
A man, but no biting please.:eek6:

(not without a safe word)

The safe word is banana . . . banana. Repeat it back to me before we start.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
06-27-2012, 12:24 PM
T, I think you're engaging in the same kind of polarizing politics against which you have earlier railed. Of course when the "other" guy does it it's wrong but that doesn't change the fact that when "your" guy does it it's wrong too. Two wrongs don't make a right, as it were.

Please, don't enterpret my comments as being partisan. Wrong is wrong, and unfair is unfair, no matter which side you look at it in my opinion. Clinton is as responsible for this economic mess as Bush is. He did sign the legislative bill that overturned Glass/Segal. So I totally disagree with you on the angle of my engagement on this issue.


Off topic, my greater concern with the current implementation of Executive Orders (by both Bush2 and the President) is the facilitation of secret keeping and trampling on Civil Rights.

This current implementation has been going on for years. Don't think the current implementation started with Bush2 or Obama. This action is just more open to the public eyes via the 24hr a day news cycle.


Nixon, who was widely regarded as a political hack and a lizard and a deviant used Executive Orders to enact Affirmative Action, the EPA, and the move off the Gold Standard. This was done to rapidly enact (debatably) needed programs and avoid time consuming debate and political maneuvering. To wit; to address human suffering, also seen multiple times in our nation's history in disaster releif.

So now you see how tools can be used for good, and for not so good. Keep in mind, we are in a different era from the Nixon days. At least back then our polictians could agree to disagree, and still get something done.


Conversely, let's examine "The Fast and the Furious" scandal which essentially breaks down to, "We're going to give untrackable guns to Mexican drug cartels so we can track them...huh? Does that seem like a good idea. And, now EOs are being used to shield non-elected bureaucratic administrators from accountability.

This does not seem any different from the contra/iran scandal, nor the disillusionment of the Vietnam war. Different day, same kind of lying twisted tactics.


Clearly there's a difference of intent and I don't care if it's the Left or the Right, it's wrong...

I agree.

bobsticks
06-27-2012, 06:16 PM
Bad idea for sure, but is the intent of the executive order to protect bureaucrats whose reputations are in danger? Or operatives whose lives are in danger? Or was the whole operation just to facilitate a domestic assault weapon ban? We'll never know so opponents are free to make scurrilous speculation.

Frankly, I don't think even a high level agent through the gate of the White House, much less into the West Wing, with the intention to divulge that kind of plan to the President. There's no plausible deniability so I can't believe President Obama actually knew about the plan.

I suspect that he may be covering for someone he views as an ally within the bureaucracy.

3LB
07-03-2012, 04:39 PM
I wonder what good jobs the immigrants/illegals are taking away? The few that are still left?

Used to be a kids job where I grew up in Tennessee, picking berries, apples and such. And in Michigan. Washington state too. My wife made a lot of her spending money that way when she was a teenager. I mowed lawns, bailed hay, painted houses, etc. Back then child labor laws weren't that enforced - in most of my experiences weren't that necessary. Oh, I could go into a few stories where I was completely ripped off (did the work, wasn't paid). That was in small towns, on small farms. I remember there were a few immigrant workers on those farms.

I'm sure a lot of illegal aliens are doing jobs no one else wants to do. I'm sure some of them are paid a fair wage. I'm sure most of them wouldn't rat out a boss for being over-worked and under-paid. I'll bet a lot of the people who may have refused to do certain jobs in the past will have a change of heart before everything is said and done.

BTW: If there wasn't a market for illegal aliens, they wouldn't be here. Illegal aliens don't drive the market for illegal aliens.