What to see the insides of gear...

[frenchmon]

...well check this site out. HiFi Shock!

Hifi Shock Home Page (http://www.hifishock.org/)

[Hyfi]

cool spot, and amazing just how little is inside some of the stuff

[frenchmon]

cool spot, and amazing just how little is inside some of the stuff


Yeah....I was truly surprised by some of it.

[JoeE SP9]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.

[Feanor]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.
By contrast maybe, ludicrously expensive as they are, Accuphase components at least give the impression of great build and a lot of "stuff" for the money ... C-3800 preamp ...

http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/Accuphase/Preamplifiers/C-3800---1.jpg

[JohnMichael]

Thanks Frenchmon for the link. I like the looks of my Krell S-300i insides. I have a few audio products in mind that may not contain much. I will be checking them out.

[frenchmon]

Oh...no problem JM. I was really shocked at some of the gear.

[Poultrygeist]

I used to own this Music Fidelity clone. Gorgeous guts but the hybrid amps just aren't my cup of tea.

Google Image Result for http://www.pacificvalve.us/images/BADA_DC-222_12AU7_Front.JPG (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.pacificvalve.us/images/BADA_DC-222_12AU7_Front.JPG&imgrefurl=http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t%3D1179621%26page%3D13&h=480&w=640&sz=86&tbnid=fEedmF7wshoMNM:&tbnh=104&tbnw=139&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dbada%2Bdc-222%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=bada+dc-222&usg=__4IMy-FRJ9IS3YpuvQf_oB3Hrn30=&docid=pj62p7BQ0Thw8M&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zy_ZT8X3NpCi8AST-Jy-Aw&ved=0CF0Q9QEwAQ&dur=2047)

[RGA]

Take a look at the the Stereophile review of the Audio Note CD-4.1X CD player. There is a nude shot of it. I don't care how good it sounds. There is simply no way it's worth $12,000.

You don't care how good it sound? According to Art it's one of the two best he's ever heard and the other is $8,000 more.

But aside from sound quality and just looking inside what exactly is the sticking point.

I'd rather "quality parts" than 400 .1c resisters and .50 caps and OPamps filling the box up to look like it's expensive.

Go to a dealer and sit in front of a DAC 4.1 with the top removed. Audio Note has little to no competition when it comes to parts quality - one reason I like them so much.

[E-Stat]

By contrast maybe, ludicrously expensive as they are, Accuphase components at least give the impression
It's interesting how we each have a different perspective on this aesthetic. Sorry, but that still looks like consumer goods to me. Even if the cover has a "natural persimmons wood finish". Here are some other pics of the op amp laden boards (17 in toto!):

More C-3800 pics (http://www.head-fi.org/t/555547/accuhase-c-3800)

One of the first things I did when I got the Emotiva XPA-5 was to look inside. Well done, but clearly consumer grade. Even had that smell. If you've ever had a Japanese receiver, you know what I mean.

One of my best friend's (from high school) father was an electron microscopist. Isn't that a great job title? He was a professor at GA Tech. So, Tim was the only kid on his block with a $100k scanning electron microscope in the basement. The machining on the vacuum chamber was phenomenal. The electronics were instrument quality.

That describes my preference. Instrument quality. Performance with subtle styling. No impressive light show. Perhaps that is one reason I have always gravitated towards ARC gear since first hearing the SP-3a. Here's one of my faves:

REF 5 (http://www.arcdb.ws/REF5/REF5.html)

Scroll down and drill into the pics. Some other gear with great build quality I've seen are by Burmester and Edge. Physically speaking, the most impressive disc player I've seen by far is the Burmester 969/970 transport and DAC. It's a top loader with a wonderfully machined loading mechanism.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/burms.jpg

Now, the Edge Signature 1 with its precisely fit aluminum chassis and engraved lettering using counter sunk machine screws.

http://home.cablelynx.com/~rhw/audio/edgerear.jpg

Ironically, as good sounding as the Edge amps were to me, I preferred the ugly duckling gentle giants sitting behind them. VTL Wotans. 500 watt triode mono amps.

[JohnMichael]

Here is an int. amp that I considered based on reviews. LFD makes int. amps based on performance and not power. The amp cost more than my Krell. I decided the Krell would have enough power to drive any speaker I might choose in the future.

[Feanor]

It's interesting how we each have a different perspective on this aesthetic. Sorry, but that still looks like consumer goods to me. Even if the cover has a "natural persimmons wood finish". Here are some other pics of the op amp laden boards (17 in toto!):

More C-3800 pics (http://www.head-fi.org/t/555547/accuhase-c-3800)
....
Humm ... well, to me "consumer goods" implies mass production. I doubt that applies to Accuphase. It's all quite subjective, but to me the effort Accuphase takes to deliver the ordered & symmetrical look is admirable. The REF 5 is nice but looks a bit ad hoc.

http://www.arcdb.ws/REF5/ARC_REF5_top.jpg

BTW, as for exterior component designs my two favourites just happen to be Accuphase and ARC.

http://accuphase.com/model/photo/c-2820.jpg

http://www.arcdb.ws/LS27/ARC_LS27_front.jpg

[Feanor]

Speaking of "consumer good" though, I do kind of like the Cambridge Azure 840E ....

http://www.hifishock.org/galleries/Cambridge-Audio/Preamplifiers/AZUR-840E---1B.jpg

[Poultrygeist]

Had one of these but sold it as well. Nice color scheme.

Google Image Result for http://hi-end.on9mart.com/products/amplifiers/integ_amp/AI-YQ-VK2100/YQ-VK2100_09.jpg (http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://hi-end.on9mart.com/products/amplifiers/integ_amp/AI-YQ-VK2100/YQ-VK2100_09.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.hi-end.on9mart.com/cart/Yaqin_VK2100.html&h=768&w=1024&sz=480&tbnid=dyL0a5EokYWC5M:&tbnh=90&tbnw=120&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dyaqin%2Bvk2100%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=yaqin+vk2100&usg=__c80qLkxLxyH7pCwcVEJz2vCcvQ4=&docid=9IfyszxFYOFbkM&hl=en&sa=X&ei=3UnZT6PUI5S36QH5r6TQAg&sqi=2&ved=0CGoQ9QEwAQ&dur=750)

[RGA]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."

[frenchmon]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."

You forgot the link RGA! Go down to the 8th picture to find the quote. Even has the same color of board as Accuphase.

Kenwood 9010x transport (http://lampizator.eu/LAMPIZATOR/REFERENCES/KENWOOD%209010X/Kenwood%209010x%20transport.html)

[Feanor]

One little thing that bugs me about Accuphase is that some of it seems to be re-badged Kenwood.

"By the way, Accuphase company was started by Kenwood employees, and all Accuphase top players have Sony KSS190A mechanism. So they are siblings so to speak. Only we know it and most people don't, so we can still buy the Ken for 1/10 th of the Accu price."
Haha. :14: You're just smarting from Joe's remarks about the Audio Note player..

But you're right that the Accuphase is through-back to the gorgeousnes of high-end Japanese equipment of the late '80s and early '90s -- not a bad thing.

[emaidel]

Certainly, looks aren't everything, but the 8 photos of the insides of my Adcom GFA-5800 are pretty impressive, and there's certainly a lot of stuff in there!

I've owned the amp since the mid 90's, and have been delighted with it since then. Nelson Pass designed it, amongst others, but has been quoted as saying it's the best-sounding Adcom amp ever. Whether that's true or not doesn't really matter, but it's certainly the best sounding amp I've ever owned, and I've had others that were considerably costlier.

[RGA]

Actually the link will make me take a closer look at Kenwoods - you never know if you see one on the used market for cheap it might be a good pick-up.

Here in HK I saw a used Wadia sitting right beside a TEAC (coincidentally). The TEAC VRDS transport is the same one used in the Wadia transport - the price difference was massive. Wadia has the name - but you'll get every bit the player in the TEAC for about 1/8 the price.

Granted some companies actually modify units they receive from suppliers but not all and that link seems to suggest Wadia did absolutely nothing (at least to that model).

Audio Note doesn't really have competition in the sense that they arguably make and use the best transformers and caps in the industry. They use them and others don't so it gives them an advantage right off in the parts quality game.

As to whether something is worth the money well - AN operates between a 3-5% cost to retail mark-up. Terry at Soundhounds told me that the rest of the stuff in the store operates on at LEAST a 10-1 mark-up. That means not a single competing component does better than a 10-1 cost to retail price scenario (and worse that covers marketing, shipping, packaging, labor.

So that means the $500 speakers are at best $50 in materials the $2000 are at best $200 in materials. Soundhounds sells the following Products (http://www.soundhounds.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=section&layout=blog&id=1&Itemid=2)

Labour is big which is why AN has a kits division to take British labour out of the equation (mostly as they still spend hours pair matching parts of the kits).

Unlike a lot of manufacturers Audio Note is not simply buying a CD player taking the cover off and putting their own cover on and multiplying the price by 10.

Virtually every thing they make is a two box unit first. They then take the two units and put them in a large case making it an integrated - or one box. Most companies have a number and they make something to hit the number so integrateds are designed as integrated or one box players. The OTO Phono SE is an M1 preamp and P2 power amp and Phono stage placed into one large box. The price goes down because it shares one case (less materials). But the actual parts inside are identical to the separates.

I like that there is a kits division - you want to save money then all you need to do is build a Dac 2 Sig Kit and buy a Chinese transport that uses the Philips Pro 2 and you can very likely cut the CD 4.1 price below half because you're not longer paying for labour. This assumes you can trust the Chinese version of the Philips transport but personally speaking as much as I like the 4.1 I would go two box and save money and get very close. Some people want less clutter I guess.

Like I say I would personally not buy the AN CD 4.1 - it sounds first rate but I think you can get the same/very close to same results far cheaper.

First, few people can drop $12,000 on a CD player in one go.

So I would do it in stages. I don't buy that the transport is as critical as some. This is why I bought the LM CD 215 which uses a decent Sony mechanism - but more to the point it sounds very good in its own right as a one box player. Really good. I could then add a DAC 3.1 later and combined I'd be getting a better DAC than the one in the 4.1 and lose a bit on the transport but it would cost less than half the price.

If a transport is critical this is what I would buy

The Opera consonance Droplet since it uses the Philips Pro 2M transport and looks gorgeous ($3200)
Consonance Droplet CDP-5.0D Fully Balanced Tube CD Player (http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Consonance-Droplet-CDP-5-0D-Fully-Balanced-Tube-CD-Player.html)

Then I'd add an AN DAC 4.1 later (which is a higher end DAC than the one in the 4.1) for $3,275. Audio Note Kits - DAC Kit 4.1 (http://www.audionotekits.com/DAC4_1.html)

Total is $6,475 and takes up considerably more space but personally that is what I would do. Pay $200 or so and they'll build the DAC for you to boot so even if you're chicken to build it is still a much cheaper proposition.

Now if only every other company would offer kits - It would be nice to have those $2000 speakers Soundhounds sells in kit form for $350-$500

[Feanor]

...
Then I'd add an AN DAC 4.1 later (which is a higher end DAC than the one in the 4.1) for $3,275. Audio Note Kits - DAC Kit 4.1 (http://www.audionotekits.com/DAC4_1.html)
...
Now if only every other company would offer kits - It would be nice to have those $2000 speakers Soundhounds sells in kit form for $350-$500
I agree about kits in general. The AN DAC 4.1 (kit) obviously is an exotic design with some exotic and doubtless costly parts; transformer coupling, etc.. I'd go so far as to say it's "good value" ...

http://www.audionotekits.com/_images/DAC4_1_002.jpg

But is it worth $3215 more than my current $60 DAC from eBay ... uhmm ... maybe not.

[RGA]

I agree about kits in general. The AN DAC 4.1 (kit) obviously is an exotic design with some exotic and doubtless costly parts; transformer coupling, etc.. I'd go so far as to say it's "good value" ...

http://www.audionotekits.com/_images/DAC4_1_002.jpg

But is it worth $3215 more than my current $60 DAC from eBay ... uhmm ... maybe not.

Depends on whether one likes the sound better or not. Since I've heard a lot of digital over 20 years and none of it sounds better than Audio Note digital then it's worth it. But according to the Stereophile review - it doesn't play well in all systems due to impedance issues. But then it's not designed for all systems.

The issue of "worth it" applies to anything. Is it worth it to buy a $550 Sennheiser HD 600 over the free ones that come with your iPod - they both, after all, produce sound. Is it really "worth" $550 times more than the $1 headphone they provide?

I go back to my AN OTO experience back when I was a huge Bryston fan.

I sat there looking at my financial options - I could buy the Bryston Pre/pro combination for the same price as an OTO integrated. Bryston with the 20 year warranty versus the OTO with only 1 year. Bryston with the impeccable reputation for taking care of the customer, Bryston in the recording studios, Bryston with the reviews and name recognition and I could sell easily on the second hand market. Bryston with more dealers and less likely to go out of business. And separates (more option) - more inputs, looks better, no costly tubes to replace, better measurements.

The they pushed play.

Had it even been close I would have bought Bryston because contrary to popular belief I will sacrifice a bit of sound quality for Features, Aesthetics, Warranty, Resale Ability, Customer Support, and Ergonomics. Unfortunately, like Wes Philips - after my auditions in the dealer like his at CES - after AN the rest was noise.

The problem is that as much as I like Audio Note - it's not affordable - I can't blame them - part of it is supply and demand - more demand you can raise the price - people are willing to pay $12k for the CD 4.1. I can like it without attaching a value to it because IMO so long as it "sounds the price" or betters the competition then it's fine. Personally I would go with a DAC and cheaper transport. I could pick up a used TEAC VRDS for $600-$700 and that would probably be a top 5 to 10 transport and the AN DAC and CD is done.

The interesting thing though is CD is in a bit of a death rattle. Computer audio has taken over and AN has not really been on board. So if you want a great USB DAC from Computer I doubt the AN holds up very well.

Again personally speaking I want a DAC that can be used for a CD player AND computer. Strike 2 to Audio Note.

I am looking at Lindeman, Eastern Electric, Halide, and some others as a DAC.

The Eastern Electric Mini Max Plus is very nicely priced and has gotten raves by virtually everyone. For around $1k to me it is possibly a better option than Audio Note. It's certainly very likely to be a much better option for computer audio. The AN's outsource their USB Dac section to Hagerman in the U.S. for a custom job I believe but it's not as current.

This is a possible option for me later in the year MMpreIntro (http://www.eeaudio.com/eeaudio_012.htm)

[Glen B]

Often we thiok some manufacturers are asking too much for what is inside the components they're selling. We need to remember that they need to recoup the money spent on R&D when pricing their products. They are not in business to lose money.

I've built a number of DIY items as a favor to members of various forums (DC blockers and IR remote triggers for the legacy model Classe amplifiers) at near cost price. If I were to charge what I thought was a fair and reasonable price for my precious spare time building these items, people would probably think they were being ripped off paying so much for what seems like so little for the money.

I don't doubt there are manufacturers who charge too much, but that is a topic for another discussion. Just my $.02.

[Poultrygeist]

I build speakers for the joy of accomplishment. I almost feel I should be paying someone just for the experience.

[MrAcoustat]

Hi i love to see the insides of units, here are a few photos of my Acoustat's 1+1s interface.

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface01.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface02.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface03.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface04.jpg

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface05.jpg

[Poultrygeist]

Love to see those big yellow auricaps. My Bottleheads are loaded with them.

[Feanor]

Hi i love to see the insides of units, here are a few photos of my Acoustat's 1+1s interface.
...

http://i814.photobucket.com/albums/zz61/MrAcoustat/Interface05.jpg
I like the wired-in wall-wart. :biggrin5:

[JoeE SP9]

You don't care how good it sound? According to Art it's one of the two best he's ever heard and the other is $8,000 more.

But aside from sound quality and just looking inside what exactly is the sticking point.

I'd rather "quality parts" than 400 .1c resisters and .50 caps and OPamps filling the box up to look like it's expensive.

Go to a dealer and sit in front of a DAC 4.1 with the top removed. Audio Note has little to no competition when it comes to parts quality - one reason I like them so much.

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. As an EE (retired) I have some idea about what components actually cost. As good as the Audio Note may sound the parts count/quality simply doesn't justify the asking price. At half the current retail cost it would still be overpriced. Examine the parts and cost them out yourself. Even paying single lot prices for parts, what Audio Note is charging is totally ridiculous.

Read what Art Dudley thinks, in, As We see It in the current Stereophile. My response to this is it's about time.

I could see going as high as ~$2000 for the Audio Note DAC. At that they would still be making (my estimation) 400% to 500% profit.

[TheHills44060]

I like the wired-in wall-wart. :biggrin5:
I guess the wall-wart wire wasn't long enough to reach the electrical outlet?

[RGA]

Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread. As an EE (retired) I have some idea about what components actually cost. As good as the Audio Note may sound the parts count/quality simply doesn't justify the asking price. At half the current retail cost it would still be overpriced. Examine the parts and cost them out yourself. Even paying single lot prices for parts, what Audio Note is charging is totally ridiculous.

Read what Art Dudley thinks, in, As We see It in the current Stereophile. My response to this is it's about time.

I could see going as high as ~$2000 for the Audio Note DAC. At that they would still be making (my estimation) 400% to 500% profit.

There is more to cost than just parts cost. Labour is orders of magnitude more expensive than parts cost in a product.

Audio Note uses better parts and has higher labour costs than virtually anyone else selling gear for similar prices.

Audio Note also does the old Rolls Royce thing where every part in your machine has a duplicate part stored for it should your unit ever fail. So in 25 years when your CD player dies they have an extra transport stocked for it, and every other part is available. When you drop large coin in 8 years you don't want to hear that there is no repair option available. And a lot of people can't get cabinets or tweeters for their speakers from just 10 years ago from the major speaker brands.

Mark-up is generally 10 to 1 on audio gear. Not exactly sure why AN is held to a higher standard for selling gear at similar or even higher prices to competitors who use worse parts. And very few of them have the labour costs in terms of time nor do most pay real wages, benefits, medical, and pensions. (hence if it's built in China)

The other problem with the costing is that it is easy when the parts prices are known - less so on in house exotic materials. AN is generally considered to be making the best transformers in the industry (the history of the industry for that matter) - so it would be fair to say that they would or should be the most expensive transformers of any given type available. And cases can also be made for wiring and caps.

Hand built in England takes time(labour), space, machines, - other companies can order their 500 count from Parts Express some of which may or may not be up to code which may explain why my Pioneer Elite arrived D.O.A and I had to go back and get a replacement. So much for checking each transformers to make sure it actually works. And Pioneer wasn't bad for this kind of thing.

One reason I like Soundounds' repair facility - they buy the parts that go into their repairs - they have repaired every major and most non major brand over the last 40 years. It's amazing that the same people who rip Audio Note have gear listed in their sig lines with parts quality that is truly absurdly low. Seems like a double standard.

As for prices being high - I agree on that - but audio isn't alone on this. You buy what you can afford and you whether you like the sound of it. If the $10k unit sounds better it sounds better and sound is what determines the value. In this case the two best digital sounds the reviewer heard was AN's CD player and another CD player for $8,000 more. So it's the best CD player he's ever heard at the price (and all prices lower) out of all the CD players/digital he's heard since CD became a format. And it's better than all the more expensive ones he's ever heard too (semi-tied with one more than 60% higher in price). Sound quality is the important thing no?

[JoeE SP9]

95% of the components in Audio Note gear are standard off the shelf parts. So the line about them keeping replacements doesn't hold water.

I realize that anything that doesn't support your attitude about Audio note gear is a problem for you. Regardless, the DAC in question is extremely overpriced. Cost out the parts yourself. There is simply not enough in parts or work involved to justify the asking price.

As I said, I have some knowledge and expertise concerning what parts and labor of electronics actually costs. I'm in no way denying that the Audio Note DAC sounds very good. It is however IMO extremely overpriced. Your defending it without actually knowing what parts actually cost is no real defense.

From your past postings you defend and push Audio Note to the exclusion of anything else. I'd be surprised if you didn't defend the ridiculously high cost of some of their gear.

Some, me included, think taking someone else's design and product, performing some minor modifications and increasing the price four fold to be gouging the customer. A lot of Audio Note gear is in that category.

Once again: There is no way that DAC is worth $8,000.

[RGA]

The Pro 2 mechanism by itself is $500. And that's for a stock lower end version than the one in the Audio Note CD player. It's one of the three best transport mechanisms available on the market which is why it's expensive. So where do you come up with 400times mark-up?

Black Gate caps were sold by Black Gate - these were some of the most expensive caps in the industry costing in some cases many hundreds and even thousands of dollars.

Audio Note also makes their own Caps, and their own wires and their own silver soldering materials and their own resisters and all of their transformers.

Look at what's in your gear before you throw stones. hint - divide by at LEAST 10. So why not address that?

Gee Audio Note sells a product for more than their cost - but of course the stuff you bought costs $1 less than the retail price right?

Be serious.

[E-Stat]

The Pro 2 mechanism by itself is $500... It's one of the three best transport mechanisms available on the market which is why it's expensive.
Didn't you get the memo from Feanor? He has concluded from theoretical analysis that transports have no audible effect on disc playback quality. Why on earth would you source such an overpriced component?

[JoeE SP9]

The Pro 2 mechanism by itself is $500. And that's for a stock lower end version than the one in the Audio Note CD player. It's one of the three best transport mechanisms available on the market which is why it's expensive. So where do you come up with 400times mark-up?

Black Gate caps were sold by Black Gate - these were some of the most expensive caps in the industry costing in some cases many hundreds and even thousands of dollars.

Audio Note also makes their own Caps, and their own wires and their own silver soldering materials and their own resisters and all of their transformers.

Look at what's in your gear before you throw stones. hint - divide by at LEAST 10. So why not address that?

Gee Audio Note sells a product for more than their cost - but of course the stuff you bought costs $1 less than the retail price right?

Be serious.


In the first place I was specifically talking about the DAC.

I don't care what they make in house. There is no way that DAC is worth $8,000. Everyone that posts here knows that you are the local Audio Note fan boy and I'm not surprised that you'll defend it to the end.

I don't have a proiblem with the cost of an item. I have a problem when I believe the item isn't worth the asking price.

I'm familiar with high quality components such as Vishay resistors and Mundorf capacitors. I'd love to see a capacitor from anyone that cost's "thousands of dollars".

I suggest you do some research and find out how much parts actually cost.

Please take note of the fact that I haven't said the same thing about other Audio Note products although IMO their speakers and TT's aren't worth what they're asking. I say that about the speakers in particular because they take someone elses design, make some very minor modifications and increase the price fourfold.

I sure hope Audio Note pays you well for being their major cheerleeader.

Having you constantly shove the "virtues" of Audio Note down our throats becomes tiresome.

For the record, I think there is a lot of overpriced audio equipment.

[E-Stat]

I don't have a proiblem with the cost of an item. I have a problem when I believe the item isn't worth the asking price.
I can see paying coin that for a Meitner product having heard several in very nice systems. Not to mention DSD labels like Telarc used his ADCs in production.

6moons offers some nice candy here (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/meitner/1.html).

[JoeE SP9]

Meitner yes! IMO his products are worth the money. They are original and utilize unique engineering and circuit design. Ed Meitner's designs are not a re-hashing of a Phillips design from the dawn of CD's. The Pacific Microsonic is another DAC I would open my wallet for if I could afford one.

I don't have a problem when the design and engineering are up to the cost.

[RGA]

It's funny that the same Art Dudley people are happy with regarding an article on pricey things defended the AN E

" A note on value: Just a short while ago, I saw a thread on AudioAsylum.com suggesting that Audio Note loudspeakers must be wildly overpriced, given their very plain appearance in comparison with most other expensive speakers. One savant noted the E's lack of a grille: a notorious scheme for cost-cutting by devious manufacturers, he said. I felt as if I'd stepped into a world where an expensive car would be criticized for lacking low-profile wheels, a rear-view videocam, a spoiler, and a fancy paint job—until it occurred to me that I'd never left that world in the first place. I didn't know whether to laugh or cry.

A product such as this confounds a mindset such as that. In addition to the happy prospect of buying a thing that sells for less than its predecessor and sounds at least as good, the latest version of the Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE offers the kind of performance that simply must be heard to be understood:"
Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeaker Audio Note AN-E/SPe HE, August 2008 | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/audio-note-e-lexus-signature-loudspeaker-audio-note-espe-he-august-2008)

And he bought those overpriced loudspeakers. Mr. Value finds the $9,600 two ways a killer value. And he's correct.


You are making the claim that AN uses cheap parts and asking top dollar - so list the prices for me so that I can see your argument. Yes I like AN, yes I am a fanboy, that still doesn't mean that you can slag gear without supporting it with evidence. If you can illustrate that $8k Audio Note uses no better parts than the $2k machines on the market (as you said it would still be overpriced at $2k) then show me a production CD player from ANYONE at $2k that uses better parts.


You like 20k DACs from Meitner - did you run the prices of each part and conclude that they are worth the asking price? And that they are better than what Audio Note uses? Have you heard them side by side? Did you know that there are several Audio Note patents (yes they do actually have numerous patents)? Or is it because your anti-AN stance is so high that anything they do is BS but stuff you like (and heard or merely read about) is better because they apparently spent more on R&D? R&D is one of those guesswork things. Maybe you would stop to wonder that Audio Note is using the approach based on the initial design of the entire technology because that was the CORRECT design. It was THE fundamental approach to the entire landscape of CD. The fact that Sony/Philips used lousy lousy horrible cheap parts and power supplies made them sound rubbish. So rather than using good parts they opted instead to do what everyone is doing today - processing and processing and more processing - corrective feedback - anything EXCEPT using quality parts.


When I look at $10k plus machines of CD players, DACS, amplifiers what I would ask is

What did they make? What inside the unit did they make. As that lamligter (Sp?) website noted (incidentally they rip open piles of CD players and he is very favorable of the AN units in terms of design and quality of parts and build) - he found that an expensive Wadia was basically someone else's machine placed in a Wadia box with zero addition or change and a massive upcharge. Other companies took Laser disc players and stuck into their machines and charged massive sums - cosmetic changes only.

So when I look at a $10k device and see that XYZ company bought all their parts and stuck them in a machine - that's less impressive to me, even if they're generally viewed to be "good parts" than the companies out there, AN is one of very few, where they make their OWN caps, resisters, wires, soldering material, transformers and casework and in non slave labour conditions.

That ain't know slap stuff together in some Chinese sweat shop using dubious quality controls.

You get a 100% hand built designed in house where all the most important parts are made by them and 100% tested - every single one. You pay for that - whether it is worth it or not is up to the individual that hears them.

But in the parts quality game for these kinds of designs - tube CD players - I'd like to see better. Looking inside $20k EMM Labs - I am waiting to see how you justify their price cost.

Rolls Royce when they were really Rolls Royce charged a LOT of money for the same kinds of things. You pay a premium for truly hand made stuff - people are willing to pay for that.

If you're not willing to pay for that - guess what - you can buy the same thing as a kit for less than half the price. Why don't the other makers offer that you should ask? Because then you'd know all the parts inside THEIR products and AN would be looking pretty great at that point.

[JoeE SP9]

Nowhere in any post did I say that Audio Note uses cheap parts. I said their $8,000 DAC is overpriced for the design and components. There isn't even $1000 worth of parts in it. There is no new thought, design or engineering in a product that's nothing more than an old Phillips DAC that's been repackaged

You can and will continue to push and boost all things Audio Note. That doesn't change the fact that a substantial portion of their product line is highly overpriced.

I'm sorry if your feelings are hurt because someone has the nerve to call your beloved Audio Note gear overpriced. The reinforcement and proof is that I'm not the only one who thinks a lot of Audio Note gear is overpriced.

Gee, paying an accomodation price for a used pair of demo speakers that have made the rounds to various reviewers. If "Mr. Value" actually payed $9,600 for those speakers I'll buy a pair myself. Everyone knows that none of Stereophiles writers pay list price for anything.

[RGA]

So in other words you have no pricing information whatsoever on a single thing inside an Audio Note DAC and just inventing assumptions (umm LIES) because it's not filled to the hilt with a bunhc of "stuff"- thought so.

As for reviewer discount pricing - gee let's assume Art got the speakers for half price - your point would be what? Art could get ANY speaker from ANYONE at half price. So any other $10,000 speaker he could get for $5k. So he found that it was the best $10,000 speaker available regardless of discount prices.

As for the older DAC - if you actually did any research you would actually try to figure out that that particular DAC costs considerably more than most and is one reason few other companies use it - because they're too cheap. See Lamplighter's comments on the DAC chosen.

As for Caps - easily the most expensive to manufacturer out of any cap on the market and use the most expensive materials in order to make them. Cap shoutout - http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

Perhaps at least find stuff out before you make assumptions and SEE what is inside them first Audio Note Co. Tours (http://www.avshowrooms.com/Audio_Note_Co.html)

Then cost out a custom designed transformer winding machine from Ruff Ruff Toroidal Winding RW 55 (http://ruff-worldwide.de/Ruff%20Toroidal%20Winding%20RW%2055.php)

[Byron4]

Hi RGA

First of all it was a pleasure meeting both you and Atomic Adam in person at CAS 3. I enjoyed hearing both of your perspectives about the various pieces of equipment.


Yes I like AN, yes I am a fanboy, that still doesn't mean that you can slag gear without supporting it with evidence.

You are correct some people seem to enjoy bashing other people's equipment and points of view. BTW I was not comfortable with the confrontational style of one of the posters in another thread which I stated as "rather childish and off topic" so I put him on my "Ignore List" and have not had any problems with him since.

[RGA]

Nice to meet you too Byron - did you buy those Crescendo's for your daughter? (LOL I know you didn't but she has great taste in sound - she should be a reviewer - we need more females in the industry)

I know that if I were a kid I'd have much rather had speakers for my 16th or graduation than a car.

PS - I probably should not mention this - but if you really liked those speakers do look up Aurum Cantus - they actually make a LOT of loudspeakers as OEM for MANY MANY other brands (Ahem hint) for about 1/3 to 1/4 the price. It may not be exactly the same but then again it might be.

Aurum cantus (http://www.aurumcantus.com/)

[E-Stat]

Gee, paying an accomodation price for a used pair of demo speakers that have made the rounds to various reviewers. If "Mr. Value" actually payed $9,600 for those speakers I'll buy a pair myself. Everyone knows that none of Stereophiles writers pay list price for anything.
I'll have to agree with Rich on this having purchased a couple of things on accommodation long ago myself. While the purchased prices are lower, the playing field pretty much stays the same.

Some manufacturers have slightly different margins and programs, but it was always the product I obtained that drove the purchase. One requirement for such a purchase was to keep the unit for at least a year before selling. My choices lasted at least ten!

[JoeE SP9]

So in other words you have no pricing information whatsoever on a single thing inside an Audio Note DAC and just inventing assumptions (umm LIES) because it's not filled to the hilt with a bunhc of "stuff"- thought so.

As for reviewer discount pricing - gee let's assume Art got the speakers for half price - your point would be what? Art could get ANY speaker from ANYONE at half price. So any other $10,000 speaker he could get for $5k. So he found that it was the best $10,000 speaker available regardless of discount prices.

As for the older DAC - if you actually did any research you would actually try to figure out that that particular DAC costs considerably more than most and is one reason few other companies use it - because they're too cheap. See Lamplighter's comments on the DAC chosen.

As for Caps - easily the most expensive to manufacturer out of any cap on the market and use the most expensive materials in order to make them. Cap shoutout - http://www.vhaudio.com/21capacitorshootout.pdf

Perhaps at least find stuff out before you make assumptions and SEE what is inside them first Audio Note Co. Tours (http://www.avshowrooms.com/Audio_Note_Co.html)

Then cost out a custom designed transformer winding machine from Ruff Ruff Toroidal Winding RW 55 (http://ruff-worldwide.de/Ruff%20Toroidal%20Winding%20RW%2055.php)

You can defend and boost Audio Note as you constantly and consistantly do. You have no pricing information either. It won't change the fact that IMO much of their product is highly overpriced.

Trotting out the prices of tax deductible capitol investment machinery doesn't work with me. What I find incongruous is that while you defend Audio Note to your dying breath other companies that produce expensive gear don't get the same pass on their prices.

My point about accomodation pricing is that ordinary folks don't have that "money saving" option.

I wonder how much Art Dudley actually paid for those speakers?

[RGA]

Well if you REALLY want to know the costs of the parts that go into products you can go to Soundhounds in Victoria - speak with the repair guys and find out what they pay for replacement parts.

As for specific information - hey you're the one that says their retail price is 400 times manufacturer cost.

As for other companies and their prices - depends on what it is. Plenty of expensive stuff sounds expensive (great) and therefore I could not care less what the parts are. I care about results which some incredibly stupid people don't understand. Frankly, if a company can make something sound better with less expensive parts then that's a commendable thing - they make a much better sounding product and they make more profit insuring the long term viability of their company. What's the problem?

If you actually bothered to watch the videos (which you likely didn't) you would hear from the horse's mouth comments about higher margins on pricier gear. That's a reality by the way for all things from shirts to cars.

Defending Audio Note is fairly easy whether I like the product or not. They may not be everyone's first choice for sound quality - that's fine - but they rarely get beat on parts quality at the price.

As for machinery costs - they count toward the cost of the products sold - those are still costs. Overhead, marketing, advertising, labour - not just parts cost.

As for details on pricing - well this is not rocket science. In general most stuff is 10-1 retail to cost. If it's $2000 retail it cost the manufacturer $200 or less to make it. And that is all costs not just parts cost. And dealers have different margins from different companies as well.

But it's not hard to tell that one cap costs more than another cap or that silver is more expensive than copper or that nickel cores are vastly better and vastly more expensive than an off the shelf cheap ass toroid that most everyone uses including a lot of expensive amplifiers from expensive names where a similar or just as good one is used in cheaper amps from the likes of Rotel.

When Audio Note has a 5lb Cap with 90%+ of rolled Silver foil that they have to pay $450 perkg for and the device uses 8 such massive caps (and there is a 50% loss rate in making the cap - versus a similarly priced retail product that advertises "Mundorf" which you can buy retail for $30 and uses one - and throws in a cheap $5 Toroid verus double C-core 50% nickel then one thing actually uses expensive parts and the other is a joke.

And when you make your own parts by hand - it's far more expensive than getting the bulk rate purchase from Mundorf or Transformers R' us.

I am not exactly sure what your point is about Art and the AN E. The retail is say $9k. Being that Art has purchased other Audio Note products (the kit one) to use as his reference gear while at Listener and given the fact that he OWNED Snell Type J speakers the man likes the sound of it. So that's the speaker he WANTED. He probably got them at around 40-50% of retail. Incidentally, most consumers will get 15-20% off on AN gear anyway since they generally follow the Asian haggle philosophy.

Incidentally, he could have got the same pricing on the Audio Note M2 preamp and didn't buy that one - I'm not a huge fan of it either, so he chose something from someone else - where he probably got it (Shindo) for 40-50%.

The reality is once the reviewer reviews it - it is a used item and can not be sold as new. Shipping the things around the world is expensive so the manufacturers say to themselves - if the reviewer doesn't want it we have to pay possibly hundreds or thousands of dollars to ship them back. And then what? They're stuck with a used item.

And note that several TAS reviewers have been GIVEN their stuff for FREE (long term loan) so when you look at their systems you have to wonder - and it usually comes with some stipulation that they not negatively compare their "long term loan" to something else. Obviously, just by reading Art - you can tell that wasn't the case.

Speaking to Bob Hodas he noted that several recording studios get stuff free so that those companies can advertise that their speakers are used in recording studios - he specifically mentioned B&W and Abbey Road and a few other studios which he worked in and that none of them would have chosen those speakers for themselves - it's business.

I recently bought the Audio Note AX Two speaker (incidentally at the retail price) which is slightly lower in Hong Kong due to no tariffs and much lower shipping costs - but at retail. I could probably have purchased just about any $1500-$2000 loudspeaker from anyone else for the same money on reviewer pricing. If I heard speakers from anyone else in that price range that I liked better I would have sought them out. (note: I do like some other speakers in that price range but not for the room size ie; they need a bigger room so while arguably better - would suck in the small room).

[JoeE SP9]

Gee, getting a $10,000 pair of speakers for 50% off. What a hardship!:biggrin5:

However, this discussion isn't about that. This is about a DAC that from what I see is seriously overpriced. Please note that I've said nothing about other Audio Note electronics. I've had an opportunity to look at a couple of their amplifiers "naked". While they are expensive they are not IMO grossly overpriced.

I have a pretty good idea what parts actually cost. My tubed mono blocks use Hammond transformers, Vishay and Holco resistors, Reliable and Musicap capacitors and Silver wiring with WBT connectors. Also, being a retired EE I have some knowledge how much skilled labor actually costs.

Some Audio Note gear is merely expensive. That DAC is just grossly overpriced.:smilewinkgrin:

If any manufacturer will gift me with some gear on long term loan I promise I won't say anything bad about it as long as it's in my room. That's the standard deal isn't it?:devil:

Has anyone else read As We It in the September Stereophile?

[RGA]

I am still not sure I get your argument - is it because there's less stuff in it? There's more parts in my OTO than many of their more expensive models - but those models are using MUCH more expensive parts.

The only AN DAC in this entire thread with a photo is the AN DAC 4.1 Kit which sells for $3,275.

What's in it?

AudioNoteKits’ new 3mm powder coated black Aluminum chassis.

New enhanced M2-X power supply uses AN copper film caps along with high quality RubyCon Electrolytics and Panasonic for the filament position.

Updated and more rugged Mains transformer.

Pre-assembled Digital DAC board with dual toroidal input transformers.

The 5687 Driver Board comes with Tantalum resistors, Copper film capacitors and Elna cerafine.

Audio Note Improved HI-B C core output transformers for the final stage.

Supports either XLR, USB or RCA(SPDIF) input and both RCA and XLR Balanced Outputs!

Pre-assembled Digital DAC board with dual toroidal input transformers And Elna Cerafine capacitors.

USB input board included as standard.

TFE wire (silver plated copper)



Seems reasonable to me. Plenty of expensive CD players and DACs out there for many times this price that are nowhere in the same class with regards to Parts - and according to Art - nothing at any price sounds "better".

Personally speaking - I'd buy the kit over a production unit (except speakers) - but looking at the AN DAC Kit and the 4.1 production model pics - it's not the same - looks close to the same though. I get the sense the kit 4 is more the equal of the 2.1 production model - maybe the 3.1

The price list - doesn't seem too nuts to me http://www.audionotekits.com/PDF/ANK_Price_List.pdf

[JoeE SP9]

You find nothing wrong with any Audio Note product. That in and of itself says a lot.

[RGA]

Maybe you should read my review of the CD 2.1x if you don't think I find no fault with AN gear.

Audio Note UK CD-2.1x MkII CD player Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=826)

Products that I would not want to own:

AN speaker kits
AN AX One
AN SORO
AN units using the Philips L1210 transport - or anyone else using it - Bryston, Sim Audio for example
AN Meishu (sounds fine but the price...)
The low level DACs

The stuff I do like costs too much even if I could get it half off - it's still beyond my reach.

Which is why I look to find something in the ballpark for lower money - usually that comes from China - but as Philip Holmes pointed out - none of them know how to design and build proper transformers to the same degree and as he notes the sound of them are not as good as a result. Ie; Hammond is a pile of **** in comparison and they're considered good. Good is relative.

[E-Stat]

The only AN DAC in this entire thread with a photo is the AN DAC 4.1 Kit which sells for $3,275.
How different is that from the assembled version as reviewed by Positive Feedback for $11k?

AN 4.1 Balanced DAC (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue8/audionote.htm)

[RGA]

I am hardly an expert but obviously there would be more labour and from the write-ups appears to be silver wiring and black gates and better transformers - one can see the difference on the AN kits site and the AN website and you can look inside - they're not the same.

But if anyone is truly interested - rather than press a forum poster - why not post on the Audio Note forum where Dave Cope can answer those questions

ANswers - Index (http://www.triodeandco.us/forum/index.php)