Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years? Need advice.

[airblue23]

Obviously a noivice hear - Dynaudio Audience with Marantz AV Receiver for HT use only.

The last time i upgraded my speaker wire was 10 years ago - bought an "upgraded" caliber speaker wire that was about twice the guage on the recommnedation of the salesman at the time. Who knows if it was worth it.

Has anything come out that warrants ditching the old speaker wires that worth investing more money than i already have?

[blackraven]

Stick with your speaker wire if its in good shape. If not consider some wire from Blue Jeans Cable -- Quality Cables at Reasonable Prices (http://www.bluejeancables.com) Their 10-14g speaker wire is a great buy if you buy it unterminated and apply the spades or Banana plugs yourself.

[JohnMichael]

To my ears solid core cables are superior to stranded cables. Check out AntiCables and Audioquest since they both offer affordable cables using solid core wires. Solid Core cables are more focused and do not have the fuzzy strand interaction that bothers me with stranded cables.

[Mash]

You can spend a lot of money on wires and interconnects. All for dubious improvements at best. Loudspeakers provide so much variation that any possible changes wrought by switching wires and interconnects is lost. Unless, of course, your original wires and interconnects were simply inadequate or too long.

I have always suggested that wirephiles connect their new dream wires only on one channel with their old and unloved wires on the other channel and then pan back & forth to listen for any differences. As far as I know, none have ever done this. By the time you finish changing out ALL of your wires your memory of what you had will be lost so you will hear whatever improvements you wish to hear.

[JohnMichael]

I have never purchased expensive cables. I would like to try some top level cables to hear if there are any benefits. The most I have spent on speaker or interconnect cables have been $250 a pair. I do not consider those as expensive.

Today my thoughts on cables are solid core with minimal dielectric and minimal jacketing. The more I listen to the AntiCable speaker cables and the DNM Reson IC's are the way to go. I hate to speak of other companies but Audioquest are good cables but I can understand why they had to develop the DBS system to counter the effects of the insulation.

Geortz Alpha core is another solid core brand using minimal dielectrics. I like their Micropurl IC's but their entry level speaker cables roll off the high end.

I have just one comment about the AntiCable speaker cables. I bought two pair to bi-wire and hooked them up without twisting the 4 wires per side. Later I twisted them and the longer I listened I thought where was that magic I first heard. Instrumental texture were missing and a prevailing glassy sound to the music was added. I removed them and put another solid core cable but then a banana plug came lose. Something made me think to untwist the cables and when they were hooked up the magic was back. The cables are only $10 a foot/pair.

Progress in cable design involves quality of conductors with less impurities and crystal structures. Less dielectric is a good thing and Tara Labs uses solid core in a vacuum at a very high price. Geometry is also important. DSM speaker cables and IC's are kept a consistent space between each other and is not and cannot be twisted. Other cable makers twist their conductors.

Conductors, insulations and geometry is where most of the improvements have occurred and that is what makes up a cable.

[Mash]

The reason for using braided audio wire is that such wire is very flexible and therefore not at all prone to work hardening from being repositioned to curve around obstacles. House wiring can be solid because it is seldom repositioned, but audio wires may be repositioned many times. The latter is the reason that oxygen-free copper is often specified for solid wires: oxygen-free Cu is resistant to work hardening. That is, using solid wire creates the need to use oxygen-free Cu.

[Poultrygeist]

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.

[JohnMichael]

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.


I am curious as to which model of AudioQuest you have. I am not familiar with big 4 wire Audioquest.

[Poultrygeist]

HT Audioquest

[JohnMichael]

HT Audioquest

I am not aware of an Audioquest cable with HT as the name. It is tough to know what you are comparing if we do not know the model of cable you are using for comparison.

[Poultrygeist]

JM, lots of things we aren't aware of exist.

In this case it's Audioquest/CinemaQuest FLX semi-solid concentric loc copper 4x14 and as I said it's HT Audioquest speaker cable ( only 4 conductor model ).

Given the name, whatever it costs is too much.

[JohnMichael]

JM, lots of things we aren't aware of exist.

In this case it's Audioquest/CinemaQuest FLX semi-solid concentric loc copper 4x14 and as I said it's HT Audioquest speaker cable ( only 4 conductor model ).

Given the name, whatever it costs is too much.



I just like to know what we are comparing. By Semi-Solid does that mean it is a mixture of solid core and stranded cables? I have a pair of AQ cables that are stranded and they are not in the same class as their solid core cables. The better AQ cables are all solid core.

[Poultrygeist]

I'll say it again for anyone thinking of spending large sums of money on speaker wires and expecting return on their investment.

If your speaker wires don't degrade the sound, then those wires are the best you can buy. Speaker wire degradation like pregnancy is not measured in degrees. It does or it doesn't or it is or it isn't.

There are so many worthwhile upgrades to one's system such as better tubes, capacitors, resistors, phase plugs, dampening, room mods, cone treatments etc. that it's shameful to delude newcomers into thinking high priced wires can make a difference vs non-degrading cheap wires.

[JohnMichael]

Point-Counterpoint. Cables have their own electrical characteristics and those characteristics can work well with the components they are linking together or degrade the sound because of mismatched characteristics. Cables at the midrange price range can be a cost effective way to achieve synergy in your system.

Cables are a component in your system that are probably the most trouble free. They have nothing to break down or wear out. I did recently pull a banana plug from a speaker wire and you really do want to pull on the plug and not the wire.

Talk to your local dealer and ask if he has any wires for an at home trial. Until you try different style of cables it is hard to tell if they are a positive or negative.

Like many things in life some are more able to hear differences in cables. Differences in cables may be more noticeable in two channel systems than multiple speaker processed systems. When I add a new component I change cables to hear which sounds best.

My system is not finished until the cables have been selected.

[frenchmon]

I have the big 4 wire Audioquest only because it was given to me by my son-in-law who's in the business. At the moment it's in the garage as it sounds no better than the Walmart Woods Patio Power Cord and I don't care for it's weight and stiffness.

40 ft of the Woods Cord sells for around $10 plus you can use the male and female ends for other projects.

It's a waste to spend hard earned money on boutique horse**** cables.


Poultry....I will take it off your hands if you are willing to part with it.

[Mash]

Give it up, Pg. You are arguing a religeous question. People will hear what they want to hear.

I have read so much nonsense about wires I am forced to wonder how people can have so much free time and money for this.

Sell the flakey wire and use the money for your other projects.

My favorite (beyond the exotic geometries jazz) is the use of OFC which MIGHT be beneficial in heavy solid conductors to prevent cracking. Oxygen-free copper was developed to allow generator armature windings and stator windings to be formed (bent) into their required shapes without cracking from work-hardening. There are no electrical differences between oxygen-free copper and standard copper. This is from the company that developed OFC. But many here are "sure" that they can hear the difference provided by using OFC in lieu of regular Cu.

[Poultrygeist]

People are so hungry to improve their systems yet lack the courage to try a real upgrade. It's sad that boutique wires end up being the best they can do.

[JohnMichael]

One of the things I have found in my sampling of cables is that a single solid core cable sounds best to my ears. The timing of all the notes traveling that single wire in time creates a better soundstage. Even a cable that uses individually insulated solid core conductors of different guages can interfere with the timing. All my IC's and the AntiCables are single conductor for each polarity.

The next cable I am thinking about is the DNM Bi-wire speaker cable. The four solid core conductors are molded to keep an even distance between conductors. The two wires for the negative and two wires for the positive are set to reduce electrical interference and eddy currents.

I do not need cables but I like to try cables much the same way someone might upgrade an amps capacitors or try a new set of tubes. The only part of my stereo needing upgrading was my turntable. I have replaced the motor and added the power supply upgrade so I am happy with the perfformance of all my components.

Since the money I spend on cables or tweaks is rarely more than a nice evening out with a show. The cables and tweaks I will have for a longtime, long after the dinner has passes and I sober.

[Mash]

Now I understand.... Those of us who cannot hear differences amoung cables are defective. I guess we should junk our soundsystems....

Let's see: New Magnepan MMGs can be bought for $600 delivered. How many nice cables can I get for $600?

Which will do more for most listeners?

BTW someone pointed out a dealer's negative (does-not-recommend) attitude toward the MMG ... well, guess what? Dealers do not sell the MMG. Magnepan sells the MMG directly to the buyer and within 6 months one can then trade their MMG in for a $600 credit at their favorite Magnepan dealer. Then what happens to those MMG?

[Poultrygeist]

I read somewhere that the definition of an audiophile is a person who claims to hear the inaudible. Could it be that only audiophiles can hear audiophile wire differences?:wink5:

[JohnMichael]

I was once interested in trying Mapleshade speaker cables and they are solid core twisted cables. My experience twisting the AntiCables and using some Ultralink stranded cables that are twisted has left me with the impression that twisted cables will have some brightness in the upper midrange and highs.

My first solid core cables after my experimenting with Radio Shack solid core hook-up wires were Nordost Flatline Gold. My system has improved so much since then I may try some of their entry level cables again.

As I continue my experience with cables I will avoid both twisted and stranded cables.

[JohnMichael]

There have been some speaker cables that were known to destroy amps. An early example was a cable from Polk Audio. Two of the larger AlphaCore cables needed resistive elements to mate with some amps. I do not know if any amps are at risk today.

[Mash]

So true, Pg. So true.

Me?

I have both Futterman/Tympani and Jolida/Magnepan systems (not to mention two Mackie HR824 systems) and I ... Gasp.... am not an audiophile.... or is that Audiopile ???

WHERE... OH WHERE.... DID I GO WRONG ?????

Oh, yea.... I decided to have a real life..... You know.... a wife .... kids .... a House.... a boat .... an airplane .....

I BLEW it!!!!

SHAME ON ME !!!! I did not learn to hear wires !!!

[ForeverAutumn]

Hey Mash and PG. If you feel this way about cables then why are you wasting your time in the cable forum?

Some people claim to hear differences between cables. Others can't hear the differences. That doesn't make the ones who can wrong. If you don't hear the difference, that's cool. But there's no reason to get nasty about it.

[E-Stat]

Hey Mash and PG. If you feel this way about cables then why are you wasting your time in the cable forum?
In context to the original poster's receiver, I would agree. Why bother?

[emaidel]

This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

I'm often shocked at the high prices (in the thousands of dollars!) some cables demand, and have no intention of every trying out any such cable. On a more "down-to earth" scale, I've had many success stories when it came to replacing speaker wire, interconnects and power cords.

The "bug" bit me in the late 80's when I replaced 14-guage zip cord with "Original" Monster Cable, and noticed a very significant improvment across the audio spectrum. Years later,I spent a small fortune (even at a substantial discount) for Audioquest "Crystal" solid core speaker wire: harsh, "in-your-face" and just plain awful, plus it was almost impossible to work with since it was so stiff. Monster Z-3 replaced that cable, and I've been delighted with it since, though I suspect there are still better cables out there, but at a price.

The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.

Audioquest has an arrangement with Audio Advisor for an interconnect called "Black Mamba II" which, for the price, is certainly worth trying. It sure improved the sound of my system by replacing Monster M-1000i, which sounded pretty good to begin with.

Then, there are the Pangea power cords, all of which cost a fraction of most "audiophile" power cords, and all of which made BIG differences in my system.

All that said, I'm sure several will still say I haven't a clue what I'm talking about. Be that as it may, others who,like me, have dabbled in this area, know what we hear. Would replacing my power amp and pre-amp with new units, costing about the same as my car make a difference? I'm sure they would, but expenditures of that nature are out of the question. If I can spend a few hundred dollars (or less) and hear an improvement, that, to me, is an "upgrade" well worth the effort, and deserves to be recommended to others.

[Poultrygeist]

It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

[E-Stat]

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.
Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden . :)

[ForeverAutumn]

It's not a waste of time responding to a novice asking an honest question regarding the worthiness of speaker wire upgrades. His mind has not been made up yet.

Offering a different opinion is not nasty but absolutely necessary for the life of any forum. If we were all like minded how much discussion, education or traffic would there be?

You won't find a cable forum on AC, AK or DIY Audio and for good reason.

I agree. Different opinions are absolutely necessary for discussion. However, the sarcasm seemed to be getting a bit on the high side. I know that things have gotten out of hand on this forum in the past and I just want to keep things pleasant. :)

[Mash]

Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.

Many inexperienced people visit here looking for information.

Why should they only be exposed to one side of the story? This may cause them to spend a lot of money that they will later wish they still had. Maybe you do not care about this.

And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?

[ForeverAutumn]

Hey, FA, I will make this straight forward so that YOU can understand.

This is exactly what I was referring to. Why speak down to me?


And WHY do you concern yourself? You cannot handle conflicting viewpoints?

Because I'm a moderator on this site and things were looking to me like they were about to take a nasty turn. I was trying to keep that from happening. That's all.

[Mash]

I am glad you are a moderator here, FA. Nasty turns are in the eye of the beholder. I consider it nasty to suggest to someone that they are not entitled to their opinions.

So someone "hears a difference" with wires? We cannot demonstrate that. It simply takes TOO LONG to change out ALL of the wires. Acoustic memories of the unfamiliar are simply too short.

At best one can use one set of wires on one channel and a different set on the other channel. Then pan back and forth to compare. To my knowlege no one has ever performed this test and demonstrated it to others of both camps. And it is an easy test.

I have experience with things electrical, including generators when I made decisions that involved sums running to more than 7 figures. And no one was looking over my shoulder. The company had full faith and confidence in my judgement... and so do I.

[Poultrygeist]

E-Stat, AC and AK are not DIY forums and you know that as well as the reason this topic deserves no forum of it's own. DIY Audio wouldn't waste their bandwidth.

[Mash]

Ummmm.... Pg.... Some discussions or threads on AK are DIY. But certainly not most of them.

I will admit that I have not noticed the "audibility of wires" being beaten to death on AK. Maybe we have missed those exchanges?

[Feanor]

My 2 cents worth is that expensive cables are not money well spend for people with mid-level systems -- these people, including me, are better off putting the money towards improving other components.

What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

I don't say all cables sound the same; I do say that the differences are typically extremely small relative to almost any other component you can buy, and that includes things like tubes or opamps.

[Poultrygeist]

Certainly cables/wires are discussed but unlike this forum there is no specific section devoted to that discussion.

[JohnMichael]

This argument seems to crop up periodically, year after year. "Wire is wire," and "cables don't sound different" are statements made often, with which most of us at this site disagree, based on our own experiences.

The largest single difference any cable made in terms of improvements was the AlphaCore TQ-2 solid silver interconncects I used from my SACD player to my preamp. I believe at the time they cost $275 for a 1-meter pair, but rarely was money better spent.



Emaidel are your TQ2 silver? I have the copper TQ2 and I was using them between the Marantz SA8001 and Krell S-300i. They are a good match when I use the RS6 speakers with their peaky treble but they soften the sound too much when I am using the OML1's. I was thinking I might like the TQ2 silver since I am listening exclusively to the OML1's.

[JohnMichael]

What's expensive? JohnMichael says $250 isn't expensive. "Expensive" is relative, but to me that's a lot money. A 3 foot pair of Blue Jeans Cable BJC LC-1 single-ended interconnects is $31.25; anything more is expensive to me.

.


When I mention that $250 is not a lot for speaker cables I am taking into account how expensive some cables are. I would never pay more for cables than I would for a car. I have some cables that are many years old and still doing their job. I wonder what it costs to replace a set of tubes knowing they have a limited life.

I think we all need to spend our money in how we see fit in ways that bring us joy. I as an in home caregiver do not make much money. I do the work because I am good at it and I am rewarded in other ways. I certainly do not have the money to buy something that is not a benefit.

[Mash]

I replaced the power tubes in a Jolida.... 4 Russian tubes at $27 each.

I bought 16 power tubes for my Futterman amps for $250.

Other tubes cost other amounts.

How long a set of tubes lasts depends on the design of the amp or preamp. Or whether the amps owner believes (for some silly reason) that the amp should be left on all the time.

The power tubes in my Futterman monoblocks worked fine for 13 years of heavy use. The power tubes were replaced when bias auto-adjustment circuits were installed.... just because.

I can garantee one thing.

Futtermans driving Tympani will make an improvement over other amps that absolutely dwarfs any improvement that any wire could ever provide.

[Mash]

The conductors in wires should last forever unless they become damaged.

The insulation should last forever in a home enviroment. The voltages are too low to stress the insulation. Other enviroments may lead to damage from, for example, sun exposure or petrochemical attack.

Generators must periodically be rewound to replace the insulation, which is stressed and thereby worn out by the high voltages (i.e. 14,400V).

[Poultrygeist]

During the last three years of daily use I've had two tubes give up the ghost. One was a Western Electric 2C51 I bought used and the other a brand new JJ EL-84. Money wise that comes to less than $50.

For the price of entry level boutique cables I can buy a matched pair of Shuguang 2a3 Black Treasures plus a quad of NOS triple micas. With those tubes no imagination is required.

[JohnMichael]

I am trying to remember a cable Michael Fremer reviewed for Stereophile. It was a fiber optic cable with a transmitter at one end and a receiver at the other end. The signal would be converted to pulses of light that travels down the fiber optic cable to the receiver where it becomes an audio signal again.

He reviewed it positively but he took a lot of heat. Many found it not up to high fidelity standards. In his system to his ears it sounded good. He did announce he would not use it to review equipment but only for his pleasure.

Other odd technologies were speaker cables with water jackets.

[Mash]

Complication is often best avoided.

Balanced XLR interconnects are probably best if your equipment supports them. These are what I use in the kitchen because I have a 50 ft run and use Mackies. XLR adaptors work but they add expense and bother.

I only have one SS amp I consider competitive with tubes but I still prefer tubie amps with planars.

[JohnMichael]

Since this thread is "Speaker Wire Developments in last 10 years?" I am going to visit some cable sites to see if I have missed anything. I want to read why JPL uses aluminum for their conductors. Crystal Labs is another solid core cable that if memory serves they use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver. Van den Hul used carbon conductors in some of their cables. Many of the cables mentioned are way out of my budget.

[Mash]

AL is subject to oxidation. Some houses burned because it was once fashionable to use AL wires in houses and then those wires oxidized leading to fires. Not good. Also AL is a fatigue-failure pig. Avoid it.

"...use gold to fill in any micropores in the silver" This is a scream.

Carbon conductors? Oh, geeze. Carbon has high resistance w/r/t Cu.....

Honestly, JM, give this a rest. Stop beating yourself.

[E-Stat]

AL is subject to oxidation.
Not when alloyed with other materials as is the case here. Ever seen a rusted airliner or military aircraft exterior - even those that are fifty years old?

[Mash]

Geeze, E-S, get with the program.

I did not, nor did I ever, say anytrhing about RUSTED aluminum. Aluminum does NOT rust, by definition.

Only FERROUS metals rust. Understand???????

I said Aluminum OXIDIZES. Which cannot be observed from a distance. ANY distance. And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?

Really, E-S, you should better understand what you REALLY understand, and what you do not understand.

I know this stuff cold.,

Alloy with Al? Tell me how.

[E-Stat]

And this is the reason Boeing is switching from using AL skins to GpE skins on their turbofan transports. Are you up to speed, yet?
I referenced aircraft fuselages. Are you paying attention?


Alloy with Al? Tell me how.
Ask Joe Skubinski.

[Mash]

I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.

Joe is not here, so YOU will have to do.

[E-Stat]

I was referencing aircraft fuselages.... and wings, too.
Kindly reference your acronym.


IJoe is not here, so YOU will have to do.
I can't speak any plainer.

[Mash]

Don't "speak" plainer, E-S. Simply explain your comments. And I have not used any acronyms.... unless you refer to GpE which is Graphite-Epoxy.

So... get on with your comments. And remember that aluminum DOES NOT RUST.

[E-Stat]

Simply explain your comments. And I have not used any acronyms.... unless you refere to GpE which is Graphite-Epoxy.
Yes, that is the acronym to which I refer. Do you really not understand why reducing weight is important to aircraft? It really is irrelevant (at least to me) for my cabling.


So... get on with your comments.
Sorry if you don't understand my response.

[Mash]

Allow me to try, and I mean REALLY try, to educate you here, E-S.

The Boeing Company has derivatives for their aircraft design, and in order of importance, they are:

1. Purchase Price (Self-evident, I hope)
2. Fuel burn (determnined by the efficiency of the engines).

Then, much further down, and I mean MUCH further down, because these modern wings are so very efficient, is



3. Aircraft weight. This is WAY behind Numbers 1. and 2.


GpE is used because it is more reliable than is AL, not because it is lighter. Also GpE can be "tailored" while AL cannot. Yes, E-S, I know my way around GpE.

[E-Stat]

Allow me to try, and I mean REALLY try, to educate you here, E-S.

The Boeing Company has derivatives for their aircraft design, and in order of importance, they are:

1. Purchase Price (Self-evident, I hope)
2. Fuel burn (determnined by the efficiency of the engines).

Then, much further down, and I mean MUCH further down, because these modern wings are so very efficient, is



3. Aircraft weight. This is WAY behind Numbers 1. and 2.


GpE is used because it is more reliable than is AL, not because it is lighter.
Now, bring this home to the relevance of audio cable design.

[Mash]

Well, as I recall, you were confused about aluminum being oxidized as opposed to rusted... so YOU brought airplnes into this. Now perhaps you are a little more grounded, as it were, about AL, GpE, and airplanes.

Audio cables? I thought I made that very clear. Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity. Only Cu, Ag, and Gold can be "trusted" but Cu has proven adequate in all cases. Fu-Fu dust aside, OFC is used for generator armatures and stators with excellent results for very many years now, so why guild the lilly?

P.S. I love the trem "Audio Cable Design". This gives audio cables more gravitas than they deserve.

[E-Stat]

Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity.
Pardon me if I misunderstood your first response.

JPS Labs does not use AL as the conductor. It is simply one component of the multiple metal alloy. The resistance of the alloy is quite low - .016 ohms for the eight foot run of speaker cable I use.

[Mash]

Mixing metals is tricky business. With many unpleasant results that sometimes take time to rear their heads. Simple is better.

The issue with AL is not its resistance per se, but that its oxidants are poor conductors. Cu does not pose these problems. Ag's oxidants are excellent conductors. And gold simply sits there. Why mess with success?

[E-Stat]

Why mess with success?
Exactly. I find empirical listening experience more valuable than armchair speculation.

[Mash]

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?

[E-Stat]

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?
I really wish I could simply imagine the subtleties of music I (and other experienced ears I know) hear with finer systems using such cables.

It would most certainly be cheaper. :)

[emaidel]

Emaidel are your TQ2 silver? .

Yes, they are. Years ago, I spent what seemed to be a small fortune on a pair of Kimber, solid silver, twisted interconnects that were used between my CD player and preamp. I ultimately found them excessively bright, harsh and with little bottom end. Perhaps the silver in the AlphaCore cable is somehow different, because it sure sounds a whole helluva lot better.

But then, cables don't make any difference anyway, as we've been told. When will we ever learn?

[JohnMichael]

Yes, they are. Years ago, I spent what seemed to be a small fortune on a pair of Kimber, solid silver, twisted interconnects that were used between my CD player and preamp. I ultimately found them excessively bright, harsh and with little bottom end. Perhaps the silver in the AlphaCore cable is somehow different, because it sure sounds a whole helluva lot better.

But then, cables don't make any difference anyway, as we've been told. When will we ever learn?


You have to stop listening with your ears and listen with your speculations.

[Poultrygeist]

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:

[JohnMichael]

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:



I see you more in Spock ears. Less ear hair by the way.

[Hyfi]

@ Mash and PG

Stating the other side of the story is fine. It should have simply been "in my experience with my equipment, I have not seen the benefits of cables vs tubes or other upgrade and tweaks."

You have also missed plenty of cable arguments at AK. I have been involved in some myself there as well as at AVS.

Lets be real honest here too. For the sake of the OP, the first and best upgrade for him would be a real amp to drive the Audience, not sure which he has. They are a tough line to drive no matter what model and most mass market HT receivers will NOT drive these speakers to their fullest potential.(again not sure of model) I have 3 of them myself so can speak from first hand experience.

He may be able to alter his sound by swapping out the ICs between source and receiver more so than with speaker wire.

Just because you don't/can't hear the same differences as others still does not mean it doesn't exist. It just does not exist for you in your experiences.

[E-Stat]

Someday when I grow bat ears I won't have to speculate.:biggrin5:
You can then echolocate!

[Mash]

If you wire fans were actually feeling secure in your wire religion you would not have the need to disparage people like me who disagree with you, now would you? Of course you would not. I do not disparage you, unless you view my non-acceptance of you wire religion as disparagement. E-S would often be overbearing and abusive but I always explained nicely why he was wrong. Perhaps he learned a few things.

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world. This Jan I searched on my name and I learned that I am described as an inventor. This is true but it is also a small piece of what I did. Some patents are for the world's first high-efficiency gas turbines for producing electricity. A few years back a gas turbine was good if it delivered 17% efficiency. The new base-load GT's my patents are for now demonstrate 60% efficiency in service while the new peak-load units deliver 50% efficiency in service. These are big steps toward slowing global warming. But these are only a small part of what I did and they will be continuing to slow global warming long after I am dead.

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps he learned a few things.
Yes. Boeing plans to save 35% maintenance time using fiber structures over aluminum with the 787 in addition to burning less kerosene.

Your theories about cabling? Zilch! Perhaps some day you'll join those with experience. :)

[Mash]

It is nice to see that your world is so wide, E-S.

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.

I actually feel sorry for you.

[E-Stat]

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.
Since you so enjoy talking about yourself, do tell us more!

Does everyone know about your incredible retirement? Here, I'll enrichen the lives of others as well. :)

Remember, I achieved ... (http://forums.audioreview.com/73446-post137.html)

edit: You never did reveal what part of the Russell links you find significant.

[Hyfi]

If you wire fans were actually feeling secure in your wire religion you would not have the need to disparage people like me who disagree with you, now would you? Of course you would not. I do not disparage you, unless you view my non-acceptance of you wire religion as disparagement. E-S would often be overbearing and abusive but I always explained nicely why he was wrong. Perhaps he learned a few things.

From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world. This Jan I searched on my name and I learned that I am described as an inventor. This is true but it is also a small piece of what I did. Some patents are for the world's first high-efficiency gas turbines for producing electricity. A few years back a gas turbine was good if it delivered 17% efficiency. The new base-load GT's my patents are for now demonstrate 60% efficiency in service while the new peak-load units deliver 50% efficiency in service. These are big steps toward slowing global warming. But these are only a small part of what I did and they will be continuing to slow global warming long after I am dead.

So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.

I don't see how I disparaged you. You jumped in the thread claiming that anyone who believes that cables can have an effect on the sound is an idiot, in so many words.

Most everyone else described their personal experiences with cables up to that point.

What do I do besides listening to wires, which there sure are lots of around here since I have 5 decent systems.

My wife and I volunteer at a local Senior Center even tho we cannot be members and are both only 50. I take care of my home and 1/2 acre, my mothers cabin in the poconos, and my mother in laws house in Jersey all while we take care of my father in law who suffers from dementia in a lousy nursing home.

So what are you looking for? A big AR pat on the back?

And what does any of that have to do with the fact that you cant, or don't hear any differences in any wires? And you are free to believe in that as long as you don't trash others who think differently. If you lived close enough, I could easily demonstrate it with ICs.

[emaidel]

My wife and I are retired, and are both active in our church. I sing in the church Chancel Choir, and have even performed a couple of solos. The choir also performs whenever there's a funeral service, whether or not we knew the person who passed away.

I also sing in the Spartanburg Festival Chorus, which puts on a performance of at least one great work twice annually. Having been a member of the SFC allowed me the opportunity to travel to Prague last year, and sing (along with 263 others) in the Prague Choral Festival at Smetana Hall.

I also record books for an organization called, "Learning Ally." Its former name was "Recording for the Blind and Dyslexic," so that should give anyone a fairly good idea who uses the material we read. Thousands of students across the country have managed to achieve college degrees as a result of our efforts.

And then too, I purchase new cables and speaker wire, and listen to - and appreciate - the differences. So one can make a difference for others in this world, and still hear the difference between cables.

[Hyfi]

Ahhh... but how do you know what you are really hearing versus what you think you are hearing?

And how do you know we are not really hearing anything? You don't.

[Hyfi]

Now I understand.... Those of us who cannot hear differences amoung cables are defective. I guess we should junk our soundsystems....



Maybe you should join up with Smokey who claims that if any cable does change the sound in any way is defective....

[Hyfi]

Give it up, Pg. You are arguing a religeous question. People will hear what they want to hear.

I have read so much nonsense about wires I am forced to wonder how people can have so much free time and money for this.



This is another problem with Nay Sayers. All they do is read and most of them never even try and experiment for themselves which makes them sheep in the religion of nay sayers.

I don't know what your reference system is but maybe it won't matter for you and that's great because nobody told you to go buy anything.

The last cable thread at AK that was closed was in the TOL forum and was about the fact that even when like minded people who choose on their own to experiment with and talk about real experiences, why do the nay sayers always feel that they have to chime in and save everyone from themselves.

That is what I see you doing here. The OP asked 2 things. If there were significant developments in the last 10 years, and if anyone thought he should upgrade his cables.

Again, if you had nothing in your own experiences to add or to say that you cannot hear any changes when you tried cable x or y, then really all you can add is that you Read something that someone else who didn't try anything wrote.

Also, some of us come by decent cables in odd ways. I got over $2K worth of Synergistic cables when I purchased a whole system for $300. The cables bested what I had so of course I use them.

[JohnMichael]

Let us compare wire to fine foods. I have a friend who can taste a dish and tell you the ingredients used in the preparation. I can enjoy the same dish but other than obvious ingredients have no idea what spices or herbs were used. We are able to agree if we like it.

My sense of hearing seems to be more acute than my sense of taste. I think we all have different abilities so it seems normal that some can hear differences in cables and some are not able. I would not argue with anyone who says they taste saffron in a dish.

[jneutron]

Absolutely. No do it yourselfer could possibly "make" a high performance cable like Valhalla and there's not much to talk about terminating a piece of Belden . :)

Perhaps most do it yourselfers. but not all.

jn

[jneutron]

Audio cables? I thought I made that very clear. Al poses real issues when used for conducting electricity. Only Cu, Ag, and Gold can be "trusted" but Cu has proven adequate in all cases.
Historically accurate for in the house use. The big problem was the combination of Al2O3 which is indeed non conductive, with connector hardware designed for use with copper wire. Aluminum has a TCE of 25.5 ppm/degree C, copper at 16.6 ppm/degree C.

However, pigtailing and the use of a flouride paste has solved those in the residential arena, the power company, as well as by those who use aluminum stabilized niobium titanium superconductors.


P.S. I love the trem "Audio Cable Design". This gives audio cables more gravitas than they deserve.
Perhaps..Perhaps you have taken your assertions a tad far as well.


From time to time I look back at my life to review what I have contributed to the world.
I too do that...sigh.


So what are you wire-folks doing to contribute to the world? I mean, besides spending time listening to wires.
For me, the list is long. But actually irrelevant to the discussion at hand. There's really no need to bolseter ones' self as an argumentative tool..

I think the subjects that I have mastered have carried me far further and provided me with far more satisfaction than your area of interest has provided you.
It is impossible to claim one's satisfaction is greater than another's as you have done. Please refrain.


This is another problem with Nay Sayers. All they do is read and most of them never even try and experiment for themselves which makes them sheep in the religion of nay sayers.
No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

I approached some neural/hearing researchers about 10 years ago with a well constructed scientific explanation and test setup, they could not get past the foolish cable yaysayer/naysayer garbage.

The OP asked 2 things. If there were significant developments in the last 10 years, and if anyone thought he should upgrade his cables.
For IC's and PC's, there has been some significant gains in understandings. For speaker wires, it's a tad more difficult, but yes, some.

jn

[Hyfi]

No. There are also people you classify as naysayers who attempt to understand why cables possibly could have an effect. Most of the explanations given just don't make the grade. The lack of a viable explanation certainly doesn't make it impossible, but most scientific types can't get past the fodder presented as science.

I have no issues with nay sayers that have actually tried for themselves and just post that. My problem is when people who have never tried for themselves just start spouting off about what they have read and believe.

If a person who seriously believes that there are no differences in sound between ANY 2 cables jumps into a thread and claims that anyone who does think they hear a difference is an idiot, and they have never tried it themselves with a system transparent enough to display the differences, then I have a problem.

If the non believer chimes into a thread like this and says "from everything I have read, along with personal attempts with my own system, I cannot hear a difference and do not believe they exist" then that is an appropriate response, not that I am an idiot and have wasted all my money and so on.

Non belief is no less of a religion than those who do believe.

Again tho I will state that I have not played around with enough Speaker Cable to have a strong belief one way or the other but I do own ICs that alter the sound depending on the components connected to as well as where in the chain they reside.

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

[jneutron]

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first.

Is your use of the word "you" directed at me, or is it being used generically at those you classify as "naysayers"? A term I abhor btw, as well as that of yaysayer..

jn

[Poultrygeist]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.

[JohnMichael]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.


But the person buying the cable may not perceive the purchase as large sums of money. My AntiCables were $10 a foot pair. Or in my bi-wire case $20 a foot pair. My AntiCables cost $160 for the bi-wire cables. I also had the ability to return the cables if I was not happy. So my liking of the cables was not influenced by the purchase price. I have $2500 more reason to like my Krell S-300i. If I had a system worth $100,000 I might buy cables costing thousands of dollars.

Value is in the eye of the purchaser. Some friends do not understand my love of art and why I spend what I do but not Edvard Munch prices. Cars to me are A-B. I want basic transportation to take me from A to B. We all have to decide what is worth our money.

[Hyfi]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.

The negative behavior of spending large sums of money with the expectation of high reward ( positive reinforcer ) vs the negative reinforcer of no reward and loss of funds.

2 different discussions

1- do the laws of diminishing returns kick in with cables? I say yes

2- can differences be heard between some cables? I say yes


But, not all of us spend ridiculous amounts on cables. I have $60 ICs that sound different with given components. I also have $350 ICs which cost me nothing so I have not wasted any money and I can enjoy the fact that most of my cables were well manufactured and terminated properly with good materials. What is so wrong with that given that I don't care to be a DIYer?

Over at AudioAfficianados, they are discussing the benefits of a pair of $28k cables. Do I think that's over the top? Yes but the people discussing them and purchasing them are apparently millionaires who also don't give a hoot about DIY and don't seem to mind spending their money on expensive cables. But why not when the rest of their setup is already in the plus $250K range.

You claiming that anyone not running a flea watt SET amp with OB or single driver speakers is wasting thier money is no different than me claiming everyone who spends more than $25 on a watch is too. But it's about more than that isn't it? It's called Personal Preference which cannot be regulated.

[Hyfi]

Is your use of the word "you" directed at me, or is it being used generically at those you classify as "naysayers"? A term I abhor btw, as well as that of yaysayer..

jn

Yes, it was a direct response to the section you responded to with quoted text from my previous post. I was responding to your reply to ME.

[jneutron]

Yes, it was a direct response to the section you responded to with quoted text from my previous post. I was responding to your reply to ME.

Ah, ok. It seemed as though you were classifying me as a naysayer.

You said"

You don't have to believe it, and maybe if I demonstrated it in my home you would not hear it. And that is fine too because at that point, you would have actually tried as opposed to just repeating whatever you have read and believed up to that point. Then you could post about your real world experience instead of quoting or paraphrasing what others have written, and a lot of times without actually trying it out first."

The point where you talk about quoting or paraphrasing doesn't apply to me, so that was where my confusion lies.

cheers,

jn

[Hyfi]

Ah, ok. It seemed as though you were classifying me as a naysayer.



The point where you talk about quoting or paraphrasing doesn't apply to me, so that was where my confusion lies.

cheers,

jn

From your responses, it does not imply you on one side of the fence or the other. In the off chance you were just doing what Smokey tried two weeks ago, I responded the way I did.

If you have tried rolling cables and never heard a difference, that qualifies you to say just that. And those that roll them and think they do hear differences, that qualifies them to say just that. But people who just read and repeat are not qualified to say anything but just that, that they have read somewhere bla bla bla and have never tried for themselves.

I understand the theories and the fact that cables not connected to anything measure a certain way. But I do not buy into those who say that there is no way any 2 cables can sound different when connected to different components.

I personally have just cured one of my systems of being bass-less and made the setup really enjoyable with the same single pair of ICs that made another system horrid and a 3rd setup lose what it had with better ICs.

Maybe I'm crazy but I'm the one who lives with and has to enjoy my systems. I would love to show/demonstrate to non believers (as opposed to naysayers) what I feel makes changes in my setup but have never had a taker to the offer and of course they are no even willing to try because it's not a scientifically based DBT. That tells me they are more afraid of what they might hear and cannot explain away with white papers than them not hearing anything different at all.

[jneutron]

In the off chance you were just doing what Smokey tried two weeks ago, I responded the way I did.
Ah, ok.

I was not aware of what he did.

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering. Unfortunately, that engineering is young, esentially ten years or so old.

jn

[Hyfi]

Ah, ok.

I was not aware of what he did.

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering. Unfortunately, that engineering is young, esentially ten years or so old.

jn

OK, sorry for the assumption.

He chimed in on a thread and started quoting from the NaySayers Bible without ever having any real world experience to go on. Just a read and repeat thing like a parrot, which in my view has no credibility unless same person actually has something more than reading to go on.

[E-Stat]

Perhaps most do it yourselfers. but not all.
I'd be very curious where you're gonna find the "raw cable" that looks anything like theirs :)

[E-Stat]

BF Skinner would see operant conditioning at work here with predictable outcomes.
Only for those who don't follow the normal approach for acquiring audio gear:

1. Listen to gear first using familiar settings (ideally your own) and familiar music
2. Make purchase following evaluation. Such includes considering cost vs. gain.

Perhaps you've have bad experiences before by reversing the order!

[Hyfi]

I'd be very curious where you're gonna find the "raw cable" that looks anything like theirs :)

isn't that just a flattened out extension cord?:14:

[jneutron]

The pic didn't show up. It doesn't matter though.

For speaker wires, the only things that matter are distributed R, L, C, and length.

The effective dielectric constant, characteristic impedance, and propagation velocity can be derived from the first 4.

It is trivial to duplicate any cable out there using off the shelf materials. How it looks is of no concern. (well, let's neglect the eye candy thing).

And very few engineers out there can appreciate or understand what is actually happening when a cable is connecting a very low impedance amplifier to a variable impedance load using a wire of impedance significantly higher than the nominal of the speaker.

jn

[E-Stat]

I will repeat, IC's and PC's absolutely can affect a system, and that is based in solid engineering.
It is a shame that many evaluate cables in a vacuum attached to nothing merely by specs. They don't appreciate the interaction with other components and the radio and power environment in which they live.

Roger Russell's mantra of "It all sounds the same provided the resistance is low enough" doesn't acknowledge that reality. Inductance, capacitance and RF rejection matter, too. :)

[jneutron]

It is a shame that many evaluate cables in a vacuum attached to nothing merely by specs. They don't appreciate the interaction with other components and the radio and power environment in which they live.

Actually, it's not the test people's fault. It's the designers of the equipment.


Roger Russell's mantra of "It all sounds the same provided the resistance is low enough" doesn't acknowledge that reality. Inductance, capacitance and RF rejection matter, too. :)

I found it very worthwhile printing out a hard copy of his paper.

The recycle bin's about 6 feet away, I occasionally need practice.:biggrin5:

jn

[E-Stat]

Actually, it's not the test people's fault. It's the designers of the equipment.
Equipment? A VOM? Capacitance meter? What does Fluke have to do with understanding the interaction of the capacitance of an interconnect to the ouput stage of a SACD player?

The funniest (actually saddest) assertions are those based upon implementing switch boxes for comparison - which totally alter the results! They worry about contact resistance and don't have a clue about measurable interactions. Frank Van Alstine is a pretty pragmatic guy who doesn't make utlra exotic gear but understands the concept quite well:

Duh (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=29717.msg264538#msg264538)

Feanor linked to one of Rod Elliott's pages about cabling that exhibited profound ignorance. Basically, he said you could compare cable audibility by splitting the output of a source using a Y-adapter into different inputs. Using my trusty capacitance meter, I find that doing so combines the capacitance of both cables at either end! Guess what? There's no difference! You just have to laugh at guys like this who have so little understanding of system interaction - much less introducing uncontrolled variables into their "scientific test". :)

[E-Stat]

The pic didn't show up. It doesn't matter though.
You must be logged in to view images uploaded to AR. Apparently, you've never seen Nordost cabling. Google "Nordost Valhalla images"


For speaker wires, the only things that matter are distributed R, L, C, and length.
That assertion is not supported by my experience (or that of a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods) using almost identical cabling from a single company. In fact, the effective DC was slightly worse on the more revealing cable.

[JohnMichael]

isn't that just a flattened out extension cord?:14:



No, there is much more to the design of the cable. Check out the Nordost Cable web site. You might be impressed by all the technology.

[jneutron]

Equipment? A VOM? Capacitance meter?
No. The audio equipment.

None are designed for EMC issues.


Apparently, you've never seen Nordost cabling.
Why would you say that? All I said was, I got a red x in a box where you linked a picture.

I've duplicated the valhalla.


That assertion is not supported by my experience (or that of a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods) using almost identical cabling from a single company. In fact, the effective DC was slightly worse on the more revealing cable.
You disagree...then say "in fact"... then present information which agrees with me. You are confused.

Allow me to help you resolve your confusion...

I did not say that lower effective dielectric coefficient, or faster prop velocity was better. Nor, worse. But different.


What were the numbers for both cables?

jn

[emaidel]

Let us compare wire to fine foods. I have a friend who can taste a dish and tell you the ingredients used in the preparation. I can enjoy the same dish but other than obvious ingredients have no idea what spices or herbs were used. We are able to agree if we like it.

My sense of hearing seems to be more acute than my sense of taste. I think we all have different abilities so it seems normal that some can hear differences in cables and some are not able. I would not argue with anyone who says they taste saffron in a dish.

All of that was very well said, and pertinent to the beliefs of many AR members.

I have a friend who says that he can hardly tell the difference between Patron tequila (for an additional $1.75) and the house-brand junk a local Mexican restaurant uses in its Margaritas, yet claims to be "known to walk out of a restaurant that uses Hunt's ketchup instead of Heinz." Other than his ketchup comparison being a bit silly, he's basically just a cheapskate. Might that not be somewhat pertinent here?

I will never spend thousands of dollars on cables, not only because I'm retired and on a fixed income, but because, deep down inside, $3,600 for a single 1-meter cable stikes me as flat-out ridiculous. On the other hand, like you, I will spend hundreds (or have spent hundreds) of dollars on cables, and been thoroughly satisfied with what I've heard, with the exception of Audioquest Crystal speaker wire.

[Hyfi]

No, there is much more to the design of the cable. Check out the Nordost Cable web site. You might be impressed by all the technology.

Hopefully you realized I was being sarcastic, but it is a good read for the all cable is the same crowd.

[jneutron]

a trusted reviewer in your neck of the woods...

If we are talking about the same person, I have family in that town now.

Ask him about the golf tournament that goes through the yards in the community..

followed of course, by a party.

jn

[JohnMichael]

Hopefully you realized I was being sarcastic, but it is a good read for the all cable is the same crowd.


Uh, I do now. We need a sarcasm smilie for our more heated threads.

[E-Stat]

None are designed for EMC issues.
I'm a pragmatist. The world is what it is. Cost controlled at every turn, too.



Why would you say that? All I said was, I got a red x in a box where you linked a picture.
Sorry, I thought it would be helpful to explain why you weren't getting the image.


I've duplicated the valhalla.
Matching three metrics, perhaps. I continue to disagree with the notion that is all that matters when used in real world systems.


I did not say that lower effective dielectric coefficient, or faster prop velocity was better. Nor, worse. But different.
Ok. Generally speaking lower EDC creates fewer interactions and phase changes than those with higher values.



What were the numbers for both cables?
1.33 vs 1.10.

[jneutron]

Matching three metrics, perhaps. I continue to disagree with the notion that is all that matters when used in real world systems.

You'll eventually agree with me...I'm patient..:biggrin5:


Ok. Generally speaking lower EDC creates fewer interactions and phase changes than those with higher values.
It does? Why is that?:frown2:

Seriously, The interaction between cable length, it's EDC, it's characteristic Z and R, all conspire with the load to modify the soundstage imaging placement accuracy. Saying such a monotonic statement as you have isn't accurate. It's unfortunately, a tad more complicated than that.

1.33 vs 1.10.

Neat. What about the other numbers?

jn

[E-Stat]

You'll eventually agree with me...I'm patient..:biggrin5:
Theory sure does look good on paper!


Seriously, The interaction between cable length, it's EDC, it's characteristic Z and R, all conspire with the load to modify the soundstage imaging placement accuracy.
How do you know those are the only factors. Which one(s) have you considered and ruled out?


Saying such a monotonic statement as you have isn't accurate.
I think "generally speaking" is a sufficient qualifier.


It's unfortunately, a tad more complicated than that.
On that we most certainly agree!



Neat. What about the other numbers?
Length was the same at ten feet or so. Z value not published for both cables. Good question. Very similar. We're not comparing 24 gauge zip to 12 gauge zip.

[jneutron]

Theory sure does look good on paper!
It's even better when it describes a model which is an accurate predictor of an outcome.



How do you know those are the only factors. Which one(s) have you considered and ruled out?
The list is extensive. Color, height from floor, grain boundaries, 4 9's vs 7 9's, lots of really silly stuff.




Length was the same at ten feet or so. Z value not published for both cables. Good question. Very similar. We're not comparing 24 gauge zip to 12 gauge zip.

How does one know effective dielectric constant without knowing the distributed L and C?? They conspire to create Z.

jn

[E-Stat]

Color, height from floor, grain boundaries, 4 9's vs 7 9's, lots of really silly stuff.
That is a list of silly stuff.


How does one know effective dielectric constant without knowing the distributed L and C?? They conspire to create Z.
It would appear that you are looking for the "characteristic impedance" as I have already provided the EDC. At least according to your definitions from five years ago.

Click here for them (http://forums.audioreview.com/166594-post40.html)

I was referring to the use of "Z" to represent impedance in ohms. Aren't you with the plan? After all, resistance is the ONLY important factor to Roger Russell. :) In that case, the answers are 1.09 /.09 vs. 1.33 / .04

FWIW, the values for my JPS cable are 1.16 / .05.

[jneutron]

It would appear that you are looking for the "characteristic impedance" as I have already provided the EDC. At least according to your definitions from five years ago.

Click here for them (http://forums.audioreview.com/166594-post40.html)

I was referring to the use of "Z" to represent impedance in ohms.

I know. What is L, C, and R for the cable?


Aren't you with the plan? After all, resistance is the ONLY important factor to Roger Russell.
Luckily, I am not Roger Russel..

Which is why I asked for the numbers.

and yes, vprop =1/sqr(EDC)

Z =sqr(L/C)

cheers, jn

[E-Stat]

I know.
But confused me by asking the wrong question.



What is L, C, and R for the cable?

9.2 pF / 0.15 mH / ??? vs. 11.8 pF / .096 mH / 2.6 ohms per 1000 ft.

Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?

I've already told you I do not have the resistance spec for both cables! It must be too late in the day. :)

[jneutron]

But confused me by asking the wrong question.
That's a perk..



9.2 pF / 0.15 mH / ??? vs. 11.8 pF / .096 mH / 2.6 ohms per 1000 ft.
So first cable EDC 1.33 and vprop 86.5%.

Second EDC 1.09 and 95.5%.

Now the unanswered question..What is the L, R, and C vs frequency?? And I know you don't have the infor, nor does the vendor. Sigh, this high end audio crew, nuttin but anarchy...



Will it go round in circles?
Will it fly high like a bird up in the sky?
I've got a song, ain't got no melody..

I can't believe it. That's the first song on my playlist in the office...

jn

[E-Stat]

Now the unanswered question..What is the L, R, and C vs frequency??
I get the value of EDC and glad you concur with my math - theoretical goal of matching "perfect" dielectric of 1 to reduce time/phase distortion. What does the "characteristic impedance" tell you? Is .05 better than .09 or vice versa? Why?


That's the first song on my playlist in the office...
Bonus! :)

[jneutron]

I get the value of EDC and glad you concur with my math - theoretical goal of matching "perfect" dielectric of 1 to reduce time/phase distortion. What does the "characteristic impedance" tell you? Is .05 better than .09 or vice versa? Why?


First cable 127 ohms, second 90 ohms, given the numbers you present.

When a cable is constructed with parallel insulated conductors in a wide form factor, the magnetic field path is increased, increasing reluctance. This lowers the inductance per unit foot, but introduces susceptibility to freuqncy based changes in inductance. Proximity effect will cause the outer conductors to begin "shying away" from carrying current, and as a result, the inductance will lower with frequency and the resistance of the cable will begin to increase.



What is .05 and .09?
jn

[E-Stat]

First cable 127 ohms, second 90 ohms, given the numbers you present.
What is the significance, if any, between those values?


What is .05 and .09?
jn
Operator error. First due to fumble fingers on calculator. Overall, I used mH as specified rather than nH. Difference in magnitude.

[jneutron]

What is the significance, if any, between those values?

For the base numbers, it determines the settling time for the cable/load system. Since we're dealing with loads which are orders of magnitude lower than what the cable impedance is, the number of reflections necessary to get to 80/90% of final value will change.

The caveat with the valhalla is what proximity effect on the cable width has on the cable Z vs frequency.





Operator error. First due to fumble fingers on calculator. Overall, I used mH as specified rather than nH. Difference in magnitude.

Ah, ok. For numbers large enough to require me taking my shoes off, I try to repeat the calcs many times.. sometimes it works...

jn