Phono Preamp

[Enochrome]

Thought I would start this on a new thread since there seems to be a drought in the number of threads here.

My Thorens TD-125 died AGAIN! So I decided instead dumping more money into that heap I would sell it for parts, and use the proceeds to upgrade my stage from the Cambridge 640p to something else.

Here is my short list:

PS AUDIO GCPH
MUSICAL SURROUNDINGS PHENOMENA II
JASMINE LPMKII
REGA FONO MM WITH A SUT
RAY SAMUELS NIGHTHAWK

some of these are in consideration at used prices. I can probably handle any sub $1000 at a used price of around $500 - 600.

I almost bought a Dynavector P75 first version for $200 but I feel it would not be a significant jump from the 640p, maybe the mk2 would have but not the first version.

Chime in!

[Brett A]

I went from a 640p to a Jolida JD9 and found it to be a very substantial upgrade; even more so after doing some (well-documented) minor mods.

Of the units you listed, I've been very curious about the Musical Surroundings for a long time. That, like the Jolida, is a very versatile and adjustable phono pre.

[frenchmon]

Well Rogue has a new stage out...its sells for $995. I almost bought it before I decided to worry about new speakers first.

There is a Rogue Stealth on audiogon right now for $630.

Then there is the simaudio 110LP that JM has and I trust his ears...its $600.

The PS AUDIO GCPH can be had for about $600 and noob has one and I too trust his ears.

I have a Grado Phono 1 that is just wonderful for $500. I am running the 2M Black through it and I love it...I too trust my ears...lol!

The Jasmine is a giant killer from what I hear...and can be had for $499 on ebay.

You can get the Graham Slee Reflex with regular power supply direct from Graham for about $750...including shipping charges from GB. In the States they cost $1295.

And Brett and Poultrigeist both have the modded Jolida and speak wonders about it, so you have a lot of choices to pick from.

I've too heard great things aout the Musical Surrounings...you can go wrong with any of them. What table will you be using?

[Enochrome]

I'll be using my back up turntable which is a Micro-Seiki DD-40. Frustratingly, the M-505 is a killer
arm but it is low mass, so my options for MC carts will be limited (most likely a Denon 304).

[frenchmon]

I'll be using my back up turntable which is a Micro-Seiki DD-40. Frustratingly, the M-505 is a killer
arm but it is low mass, so my options for MC carts will be limited (most likely a Denon 304).
So you never got a chance to listen to the Grado Red?

[Enochrome]

I just got around to trying out the Grado Red. The table that died was indeed the one the Red was going to be demoed on. Sorry about the late reply, I was away for awhile and then I had my place painted (major job but worth it) so I had no access to my gear.

Listening to the Grado Red I take back most of what I said about the much criticized Blue, except there is quite a difference between the two. The greatest quality of the Red is its tonality. It just gets the timber and texture just right, and that was listening through my Large Advents, which are not known as the last word on detail of timber. I also thought it was smooooth and I really enjoyed vocals through it.
I thought that it had more air than what I remembered the Blue having and the soundstage too was wider. I think the Micro 505 is a good match for it because it tracked better than what I remembered, but not completely without fault; the inner grooves were hawk'n but not scream'n.

All in all I thought that this Red is a really good deal. I do feel it's soundstage is little narrow, and it lacks a great deal of air, but those are omissions I can live with for that great tonality.

Thanks Frenchie!!!!!

Here is some pics:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-wsfLL4V5pI0/T9eFEcoZPsI/AAAAAAAAAIE/DVqVN_0QnhI/s800/IMG_20120611_165610.jpg

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-eYSBlVfYsaM/T9eFEq5fPvI/AAAAAAAAAII/Y9bHwQXsoUk/s800/IMG_20120611_165624.jpg


Oh, and in regard to this thread I ended up choosing a Clearaudio Basic phonostage. It will arrive in the mail shorlty and I will post my thoughts and some pics.

[Poultrygeist]

With a few easy mods the Jolida JD9 tube phono pre for less than $400 will shame anything under $1500. With miles of threads on most audio forums it has a proven track record.

It will also drive any cart under the sun.

[frenchmon]

Wow! You got the Clearaudio Basic +??? Thats and excellent stage from what I've read. I think you can also get the external psu.

Glad you got around to checking out the Red. I thought it was nice and musical as well.

[hifitommy]

eno,

i am surprised that you doubt the quality of the dv p75. it has been quite well received in the press and they disappear quickly from 'gon and other places too.

dynavector p75 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/dynavector_p75.htm)

had one been around for $200, there was i time i might have leaped for that item. i am not in need at present.

the other choices you list are good as would be the jolida and clearaudio units and i would be pretty sure the vincent should be included in consideration.

[frenchmon]

eno,

i am surprised that you doubt the quality of the dv p75. it has been quite well received in the press and they disappear quickly from 'gon and other places too.

dynavector p75 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/dynavector_p75.htm)

had one been around for $200, there was i time i might have leaped for that item. i am not in need at present.

the other choices you list are good as would be the jolida and clearaudio units and i would be pretty sure the vincent should be included in consideration.

Tommy...I saw the new model P75 Mk2 in the store and was very disappointed in the size of the thing. Pictures online don't tell all the story. While it may be good, where in the heck is the $850 they are charging going too? The thing was slightly bigger than a pack of cigarettes. I would feel like I had been ripped off if I bought that stage.

Here are the dimensions....: 5.3"x3.25"x1.75"

That small assh box goes for $850! Hell no!

[hifitommy]

frenchie,

what does it matter of the size of a component? ultimately, its the sound. yes, when something is seemingly priced high for its size, its daunting at first, but it is truly results we are after, no?

they are usually priced at the 4-500 dollar level which is not a whole lot of dough, especially for a high performer like it is. they don't last log at that price either.

[JohnMichael]

I have to admit I understand the issue of size and the concern of value for dollars. Often you read where an expensive component is almost an empty box. Of course what is in it may be the best available parts.

Of all my phono preamps the CA 640P with it's high parts count looks impressive. It sounds good but nowhere near my Moon 110LP. The parts in the 110LP are smaller but the layout is cleaner and the sound is great. Adding the upgraded power supply was another step up in performance.

I found a picture that I think was the interior view of the Fanfare MC preamp and that did not shout value. It sounded good but was not as shielded as the 110LP. My Rotel preamp in a full width case looks a little empty but it has a real power supply built in instead of using a walwart.

Judging by size, circuit layout and sound the Moon 110LP is good value for the money.

[frenchmon]

Tommy....I see things differently from you. They make a good product as cheap as they can, and make a ton of money on the consumer. Sorry that's how I feel about it.


JM your stage is a giant in comparison to that tiny thing.....

[hifitommy]

sorry frenchie,

i don't buy into the conspiracy theory. dynavector isnt one of the snake oil and fairy dust progenitors. having already established themselves as great phono cartridge manufacturers, i found it hard to believe that they would rape us with cheaply built crap.

it can be daunting to buy a product that seems inexplicably small. my instinct is to get sonic results first then judge the aesthetics. we are all different and have different

as a comparison, the clearaudio basic plus is smaller and costlier. thats another company that has established its quality to the audio community. why build a big metal box to create an illusion of size/value? as for price, it should be commensurate with performance.

bottom line is we spend our money on what we perceive to be worth it.

[frenchmon]

sorry frenchie,

i don't buy into the conspiracy theory. dynavector isnt one of the snake oil and fairy dust progenitors. having already established themselves as great phono cartridge manufacturers, i found it hard to believe that they would rape us with cheaply built crap.

Hi Tommy. No conspiracy. And when I say cheaply built, I don't mean as in inferior parts....but as in materials. They don't use a lot of materials. But apparently they make a good product.



it can be daunting to buy a product that seems inexplicably small. my instinct is to get sonic results first then judge the aesthetics. we are all different and have different

Tommy...my ideas about the size is mine alone. I dont know any body who share my idea. I have a big car, big house, and I like big stuff. So when it comes to certain audio gear....if its seems to small for the price, I don't want. it



as a comparison, the clearaudio basic plus is smaller and costlier. thats another company that has established its quality to the audio community. why build a big metal box to create an illusion of size/value? as for price, it should be commensurate with performance.
I like the Basic....and I too like the Dynavector. I think both are good products. I just wont spend money on them...and at least Clearaudio gives you two small boxes. lol!


bottom line is we spend our money on what we perceive to be worth it.

Thats right and I could not agree more.....Thats why at this moment, my next phono stage will be a Rogue Triton phono amp....its as big as a phono amp.

[JohnMichael]

Sadly in this day and age there are very few places to audition phono preamps. Back in the days when vinyl was king every receiver, integrated amp and preamp had a phono stage. When I bought a Rotel Int. amp and realized there was no phono stage I bought the matching Rotel without giving it much thought.

Phono preamps can be had for under $50 all the way to multiple thousands of dollars. In my mind, such as it is, I find it hard to spend too much more than I have spent on my cartridge. A $3,000phono preamp for my $600 Grado seems out of balance. Considering I may never pay more than $600 for a cartridge my $600 Moon 110LP makes sense to me. The Dynavector at $850 is not out of the question at that price. I felt I knew more about the Moon 110LP and both companies had a good rep so I bought the 110LP.

Audio magazines are good at reviewing the latest state of the art phono preamps for big dollars. There is not a lot of info in the $200-$1000 range. I would love to read a phono preamp shoot out in Stereophile between the Moon 110LP, Dynavector, Jolida, Musical Surroundings Phonomena and the tubed ProJect.

Of course I did add the Welborne Labs power supply upgrade which added to the cost but added more to the performance. Many of us without two channel dealers selling analog rely on companies like Music Direct and Needle Doctor are our places to shop. Being a distance from the products and making your choice I find myself looking at perceived value, construction, reviews and a 30 day return policy.

[Jack in Wilmington]

Hi Tommy. No conspiracy. And when I say cheaply built, I don't mean as in inferior parts....but as in materials. They don't use a lot of materials. But apparently they make a good product.




Tommy...my ideas about the size is mine alone. I dont know any body who share my idea. I have a big car, big house, and I like big stuff. So when it comes to certain audio gear....if its seems to small for the price, I don't want. it



I like the Basic....and I too like the Dynavector. I think both are good products. I just wont spend money on them...and at least Clearaudio gives you two small boxes. lol!



Thats right and I could not agree more.....Thats why at this moment, my next phono stage will be a Rogue Triton phono amp....its as big as a phono amp.

But Frenchie, you have small speakers. If you adhere to your theory, you should have bought floor standing speakers.

[JohnMichael]

But Frenchie, you have small speakers. If you adhere to your theory, you should have bought floor standing speakers.



Interesting point but there are smaller stand mount speakers. The point I was trying to make is that it would be easier to overlook size if you heard the product. Frenchon auditioned the speakers before purchase and he only saw the Dynavector. I would need to hear that phono preamp prior to handing over $850 for something so small you would wonder what was actually in it.

[frenchmon]

But Frenchie, you have small speakers. If you adhere to your theory, you should have bought floor standing speakers.

Jack...when you see the 830.2's and the fine material and craftsmanship that went into them, and THEN the sound, you would change your mind about that statement....and they sound like floor standers. When I saw the Dynavector in person...I did not say wow.

[hifitommy]

question frenchie-did you ever get to HEAR the p75?

[Jack in Wilmington]

Jack...when you see the 830.2's and the fine material and craftsmanship that went into them, and THEN the sound, you would change your mind about that statement....and they sound like floor standers. When I saw the Dynavector in person...I did not say wow.

But there are plenty of beautiful looking speakers out there that won't sound good in your setup and there are plenty of ordinary looking speakers out there that would sound great in your system. I'm guilty of this also. I won't buy a component if it doesn't look good in my system. My Pro-ject phono pre is the least exciting looking piece of equipment that I own, but it does what it's supposed to do and that's all I need from it.

[frenchmon]

question frenchie-did you ever get to HEAR the p75?

No I did not hear it Tommy. Im sure it sounds great. But the match box size of it kinda surprised me. Besides the simaudio 310LP we where listening too out classed the much cheaper p75.

[frenchmon]

But there are plenty of beautiful looking speakers out there that won't sound good in your setup and there are plenty of ordinary looking speakers out there that would sound great in your system. I'm guilty of this also. I won't buy a component if it doesn't look good in my system. My Pro-ject phono pre is the least exciting looking piece of equipment that I own, but it does what it's supposed to do and that's all I need from it.

I hear ya Jack. But that's really not my argument how beautiful the gear is. My Xray is butt ugly and the transport looks like an old computer cd rom drawer. My initial argument is the very small size of the p75 and the money spent to build it. Now most gear cant be justified by the cost of material....this we all agree. But the p75 in my opinion was doubly unjustifiable especially for $850. Nope, can't do it.

[JohnMichael]

No I did not hear it Tommy. Im sure it sounds great. But the match box size of it kinda surprised me. Besides the simaudio 310LP we where listening too out classed the much cheaper p75.



I would love to hear the 310LP to see how much better than the 110LP it is. The PSU for the 310LP is expensive. I might try a Welborne Labs PSU for about $300 before I bought the Moon 310 PSU but hey I could not afford the 310LP anyway. Nice to dream.

[frenchmon]

I would love to hear the 310LP to see how much better than the 110LP it is. The PSU for the 310LP is expensive. I might try a Welborne Labs PSU for about $300 before I bought the Moon 310 PSU but hey I could not afford the 310LP anyway. Nice to dream.

The only draw back too listening to the 310 was the cart they had on the Clearaudio which was very warm matched with the Dynaudios. But even then I could tell the 310 was superb. I've never heard you stage, but from listeining to the 310 an reading what others have said about it, its outstanding as well.

[Enochrome]

eno,

i am surprised that you doubt the quality of the dv p75. it has been quite well received in the press and they disappear quickly from 'gon and other places too.

dynavector p75 (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue33/dynavector_p75.htm)

had one been around for $200, there was i time i might have leaped for that item. i am not in need at present.

the other choices you list are good as would be the jolida and clearaudio units and i would be pretty sure the vincent should be included in consideration.

Tommy,

I would agree with you, but to be honest it was a superficial decision.

After getting back from New York and reading this thread, I hate to say that I chose the Micro over the Dyna based on looks. Having no chance to demo both and realizing that they both had caveats but also great reviews, I chose the Micro because it matched the rest of my system. Hey!! ya gotta look at half the time! But really your right Tommy: it is the sound first and looks second.

The Dyna was the Mark 1 not the Mark 2 and the Micro Basic I got for $250.

I really like the sound of the Micro!! Very transparent with a huge soundstage and great seperation of instruments, which is its leading attribute. But what really sells me is the truth of timber which is what I hope I would get and what the reviews have said.

Here's some pics of the Micro:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7280/7463266474_f2bc064e48_z.jpg

I have also finally gotten to a settling point with my system, after purchasing a new integrated, dac, and turntable. In all I replaced everything as it turns out! It just happened; I got lucky with a string of deals and sales and bam! I realized I am done for awhile on upgrading my system.

Here's some pics of my final mid-fi system. It's not high end but it will do:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8163/7463255868_c70faa0548_z.jpg

Micro Seiki DD-40 and the Micro Basic

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8142/7463269044_8ce51ed9b4_z.jpg

Exposure 2010s

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8015/7463252300_b8efcaa15a_z.jpg

PS AUDIO DLlll

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7246/7463254156_070ec44534_z.jpg

Sony DVP-S7700 as transport

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8022/7463261330_2ee06c43e4_z.jpg

I might be looking for a nice vintage tuner, but it is not a huge priority now. Any suggestions?

[Enochrome]

Oh and frenchie,

PM your address again!

[frenchmon]

Dang boyee.....you step up your game big time!

That Clearaudio looks great! I love it! Hey I've learned that high end is not necessarily defined by supper high dollar, but by supper special sound that rises above high fi ish sound into real audio. So don't sell yourself short. I like the Exposure and the PS Audio as well. Congrats man on the new gear.

So tell me man...whats the Clearaudio like? Oh...and PM sent.

[frenchmon]

Enochrome...does the Basic+ come with the power supply or is that an option?

[hifitommy]

eno,

i would also consider a micro, i have recommended it sound unheard on the rep of clearaudio. its great to hear that i was right about that. there are precious few reviews of that item.

btw, a friend is running tc50s in nearfield with a RSL speedwoofer and i defy anyone to locate the speakers blindfolded. they are sonically invisible.

this hobby yields such great satisfaction at all levels of expenditure. its only surpassed by seeing the music performed live.

[Enochrome]

Enochrome...does the Basic+ come with the power supply or is that an option?

Thanks Frenchie!!! Yeah, the exposure is the Acurus DIA-100 on steroidal truth syrum :D

The Micro is crazy revealing, not butter smooth, yet stops itself before getting too sibilant. It reveals timber with relaxed confidence is the best way to describe it. It is equally good with MM and MC with one not besting the other. I forgot to mention in the previous post that the bass authority for the Micro is the best I have ever heard; it really is big, tight and full sounding but nevers bleeds into the lower midrange.

I talked to Musical Surroundings, the US distributor, and they said the difference is mainly that new "+" allows you to add the battery power supply, that is what the "+" stands for. They did add a couple of nicer caps, but essentially it is the same exact stage and they stated that the sonic differences are subtle.

I've gotten to the point now that I would have to drop some serious cash to upgrade what I have now and that will be a longtime coming (maybe a new turntable = a VPI Classic (drool)).

Thanks for the Grado test!! Package coming your way!!!!

Cheers

[Enochrome]

Enochrome...does the Basic+ come with the power supply or is that an option?

Mine came with the standard power supply. For the "Basic + " you need to spend like an additional $600 or so for the battery "+" option........ouch!

[Enochrome]

eno,

i would also consider a micro, i have recommended it sound unheard on the rep of clearaudio. its great to hear that i was right about that. there are precious few reviews of that item.

btw, a friend is running tc50s in nearfield with a RSL speedwoofer and i defy anyone to locate the speakers blindfolded. they are sonically invisible.

this hobby yields such great satisfaction at all levels of expenditure. its only surpassed by seeing the music performed live.

Yes, there were not that many reviews; I had to read some Russian ones with Google translate :shocked:

The Spicas are ruthless and hard to match but when they are going you are right they disappear; absolutely massive soundstage!! :yikes: :14:

Maybe you can anwer this for me: I would like to add a passive subwoofer to the Spicas so I don't blow the Spica's irreplaceable woofers. Is that possible? Or do I have to go active?

[hifitommy]

believe me, the RLS speedwoofer is a bargain. a powered sub is really best and you can get an inline filter to reduce the lows going to the spicas.

RSL Speedwoofer 10 - Home Subwoofer Theater Systems (http://rslspeakers.com/RSL_Speedwoofer_10.html)

talk to howard rodgers about the filter. anyway the sub is remotely controlled so adjusting from the listening position is ideal. and the thing goes down very nicely, the price includes delivery.