Vizio Tells Owners Their Sets Are Un-repairable

[Smokey]

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Vizio-unrepairable-580.jpg

Vizio, America’s second best selling LCD TV brand, is now telling some broken set owners that their televisions cannot be repaired. If the set is past the 12 month factory warranty, Vizio advises owners to buy from them a replacement set !

The un-repairable defects included black screens, dark spots and red and green lines. Vizio replaced defective in-warranty sets with refurbished units, which a number of owners complained also failed soon after the warranty period. Vizio’s Florida customer service center confirmed in a phone call that defective set owners are indeed told that their TVs are un-repairable when the failure turns out to be the backlight unit, which is the light source within all LED and LCD flat panels.

Should an under one year old set be deemed un-repairable, Vizio’s warranty policy is to replace it (at their option) with a used, refurbished set they call “Recertified.” An out-of-warranty set becomes an expensive doorstop.

Vizio's spokeperson response to above article was:

“Panel defects are extremely rare with VIZIO televisions. In cases where a panel defect does arise, VIZIO’s policy is to replace the unit as opposed to sourcing, shipping and installing a replacement panel because it is considered “beyond economical repair” (BER). Panels can be replaced, but it is economically impractical because the cost of a new unit is comparable and comes with a full manufactures warranty. VIZIO is addressing it’s customer service response to ensure there are no further misunderstandings.”

Disposable TVs: Vizio Tells Owners Their Sets Are Un-repairable | HD Guru (http://hdguru.com/disposable-tvs-vizio-tells-owners-their-sets-are-un-repairable/5485/)

[Woochifer]

Old article, but not surprising. A few years ago, they were supposed to have begun contracting with service providers to maintain parts inventories for sets that are out of warranty. From the sound of things, their sets are now designed with unrepairable components to cut costs (i.e., non-replaceable backlights).

As I've pointed out many times, first tier manufacturers keep inventories of parts in stock for many years and have a long history of out-of-warranty support. My TV is a four-year old model, yet I can purchase just about any part through Panasonic's website.

[Smokey]

As I've pointed out many times, first tier manufacturers keep inventories of parts in stock for many years and have a long history of out-of-warranty support.

I don't know Wooch, but that might be changeing. Looks like for first time, Panasonic have started to outsource their low end LCD from China, starting with new 32" LCD model TC-L32C5. Lets hope unlike Vizio, they didn't choose their outsource based on lowest bidder.

[Woochifer]

I don't know Wooch, but that might be changeing. Looks like for first time, Panasonic have started to outsource their low end LCD from China, starting with new 32" LCD model TC-L32C5.

But, is that a rebadged TV or a Panasonic design that's outsourced to a production plant? And is Panasonic selling a TV that cannot be serviced after the warranty expires? Unrepairable TVs are the norm with third tier companies, but not so with the first tier group.

[Smokey]

Unrepairable TVs are the norm with third tier companies, but not so with the first tier group.

Is that true if first tier TV is manufactured in China? Even Vizio doesn't outsource from China :)

Outsourcing mean cutting cost which Chinese do it by lower labor, material, quality control and manufacture processing cost. So TV probably will not have same reliability, repairability and inventory as the one that was manufactured by Panasonic plants.

BTW on the related note, Vizio dropped from being number one in the US market share (Q4 2010) to number 3, replaced by Samsung and LG respectfully.

http://hdguru.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/Chart-2.jpg

[bobsticks]

Somewhere, pixelthis is inconsolable...

[Feanor]

It seems to me that the majority of electronic toys today are "beyond economical repair" (BER) by design. Understandably, because highly integrated components combined with highly automated assembly precludes anything else.

Bring on those extra-cost 3,4,5 year replacement warranties.

[Woochifer]

Is that true if first tier TV is manufactured in China? Even Vizio doesn't outsource from China :)

Where do I mention anything about China? Place of manufacture has nothing to do with the aftersales support and parts availability. So Vizios aren't made in China -- does that help those customers stuck with unrepairable TVs?


Outsourcing mean cutting cost which Chinese do it by lower labor, material, quality control and manufacture processing cost. So TV probably will not have same reliability, repairability and inventory as the one that was manufactured by Panasonic plants.

And how do you know this is the case here? For example, Sony has been outsourcing some of their low end components for years, yet that has no impact on parts availability or whether their service centers will work on those units.

[Mash]

Up to maybe 1990 TV design seemed to change as slowly as glaciers melted.

Now TV design is changing [and glaciers are melting] much faster today.

Maybe the calculated tradeoff is reduced TV cost (for somebody) in exchange for some owners landing on the short end of the not-repairable stick, because owners are expected to upgrade much more frequently with the progressive changes in display technology. These changes in display technology are expensive to implement, i.e. there is less time to recover design & tooling costs.

The market will probably sort this out.

[bobsticks]

And how do you know this is the case here? For example, Sony has been outsourcing some of their low end components for years, yet that has no impact on parts availability or whether their service centers will work on those units.

Sony has been "for years" outsourcing their components for Sony-owned subsidiary products. I'm not sure how the breakdown is skewed but I'm not sure your implications are accurate. That said, show me some facts; I'm willing to believe...

[Smokey]

It seems to me that the majority of electronic toys today are "beyond economical repair" (BER) by design. Understandably, because highly integrated components combined with highly automated assembly precludes anything else.

It is not so much repair as it is to just change a pc board via moduler design. The panel itself (and its integrated parts) seem to be the culprit that makes a Tv unrepairable.

[Woochifer]

Sony has been "for years" outsourcing their components for Sony-owned subsidiary products. I'm not sure how the breakdown is skewed but I'm not sure your implications are accurate. That said, show me some facts; I'm willing to believe...

The most prominent example of Sony's outsourcing has been with the Playstation consoles. Sony has its own factories that make gaming consoles, but they've also contracted with multiple outsource facilities to produce the units as well. I believe that their low end AV receivers have also been outsourced for more than a decade.

The linked article below is about Sony contracting with Hon Hai/Foxconn (which "manufactures PlayStation 3 game consoles and other devices for Sony") to take over some of their LCD TV production back in 2009. In actuality, Sony never had much LCD TV production capacity of its own -- most of their LCD TV production has entailed joint ventures with Samsung and other companies.

Sony to Outsource LCD TV Production to Hon Hai | PCWorld (http://www.pcworld.com/article/171181/sony_to_outsource_lcd_tv_production_to_hon_hai.htm l)

[Smokey]

Where do I mention anything about China? Place of manufacture has nothing to do with the aftersales support and parts availability.

May I remind of disaster TV called Apex made in China. You couldn't get no customer service, let alone getting parts and documnets to fix the TV. Also remember when Sony outsource their reciever from China while back. They had quality control issues up the ying yang with amp channels not working, overheating, chips burning up, you name it, they had problems with it.


And how do you know this is the case here? For example, Sony has been outsourcing some of their low end components for years, yet that has no impact on parts availability or whether their service centers will work on those units.

That is easier done when Sony components are made next door in Mexico, or from huge international company such as Foxcoon.

[blackraven]

I will never buy a Vizio product!

[Woochifer]

It is not so much repair as it is to just change a pc board via moduler design. The panel itself (and its integrated parts) seem to be the culprit that makes a Tv unrepairable.

But, the issue flagged in the article was the backlight. Vizio basically claims that if the backlight fails, the TV can no longer be repaired. Aside from some early Sharp (?) models, I can't recall any first tier manufacturer producing a LCD TV with a nonreplaceable backlight. How is the panel the culprit when the backlight in other TVs can be replaced if necessary?

The manifest on my TV (which I can call up anytime on Panasonic's website) lists close to 800 parts, including 16 separate PC boards. Yes, newer (and cheaper) TVs likely use more integrated functions. But, I don't think that the newer TVs are so integrated that they cannot be economically repaired after the warranty expires. I think it comes down to out-of-warranty service being viewed as an unnecessary cost. Maintaining parts inventories costs money, providing support costs money. First tier manufacturers will generally carry these costs, while third tier manufacturers won't.

Vizio was supposed to have taken care of this issue a few years ago when they announced that they had contracted with a parts distributor and repair services provider to provide out-of-warranty service. That was supposed to elevate Vizio above the rebadged "Polaroid" and "Westinghouse" TVs that made absolutely no bones about what they were selling -- in exchange for a low price, you were buying a disposable unrepairable TV. But, if a 13-month old Vizio TV can't even have a failed backlight replaced, then it seems that they've made no progress in the meantime, and they really are no different than any of those other exercises in badge swapping.

[Woochifer]

May I remind of disaster TV called Apex made in China. You couldn't get no customer service, let alone getting parts and documnets to fix the TV. Also remember when Sony outsource their reciever from China while back. They had quality control issues up the ying yang with amp channels not working, overheating, chips burning up, you name it, they had problems with it.

So you're using one example to paint a broad brush about any product made in China? Sony also outsources the PS3 to Foxconn plants in China, which build the console in parallel to the units built by Sony-owned facilities in Japan. I have not seen any data indicating that the failure rate for the Chinese-made units has been any different than the ones made in Japan.

And if you're going to use Apex and Sony receivers as the bludgeon to generalize about Chinese made products, what about Apple? Apple products consistently have the highest reliability record in the industry, and all of them are built in China.

But, I will ask again -- what does any of this have to do with whether a TV has parts available and can be repaired? Bringing up Apex or Sony receivers does not address my original question.


That is easier done when Sony components are made next door in Mexico, or from huge international company such as Foxcoon.

A well-managed supply chain will ensure parts availability, no matter if they come from China or Mexico. But, aren't most Foxconn facilities in China to begin with? And in that case, what does any of this have to do with Apex or Sony receivers or whatever?

[Feanor]

So you're using one example to paint a broad brush about any product made in China? Sony also outsources the PS3 to Foxconn plants in China, which build the console in parallel to the units built by Sony-owned facilities in Japan. I have not seen any data indicating that the failure rate for the Chinese-made units has been any different than the ones made in Japan.

And if you're going to use Apex and Sony receivers as the bludgeon to generalize about Chinese made products, what about Apple? Apple products consistently have the highest reliability record in the industry, and all of them are built in China.
...
The quality level from China depends precisely on what their customers demand -- if it's high quality for Apple or Sony, then that's what they deliver.

On the other hand if the customer wants really low cost, that's what he gets. Really low cost compromises quality even in low-wage China. A big problem is that customer expectations remain low for Chinese products -- sort of a vicious circle: it's too easy to deliver compromised quality if that's all people expect..

OK, some Chinese manufactures have an ethics problem, i.e. compromise quality more than necessary to satisfy greed for profit, but that is scarcely unique to the Chinese.

[Mash]

.........................................

OK, some Chinese manufactures have an ethics problem, i.e. compromise quality more than necessary to satisfy greed for profit, but that is scarcely unique to the Chinese.

Nah! Some of the REAL biggie ethics problems in China [example- Foxcon] would be children 13 years old working 13 hr days; no bathroom breaks; no talking for any reason; and being blackballed by the gov't for asking that Chinese labor laws ACTUALLY be enforced.......................................

[Hyfi]

Somewhere, pixelthis is inconsolable...

LOL, can you please post a pic of his setup? I don't think he posted it enough times.

Greenie for that one.....Oh and by the way, Tubes Suck

[Mash]

Of course tubes suck... they are VACUUM tubes.

[Smokey]

Vizio basically claims that if the backlight fails, the TV can no longer be repaired. Aside from some early Sharp (?) models, I can't recall any first tier manufacturer producing a LCD TV with a nonreplaceable backlight. How is the panel the culprit when the backlight in other TVs can be replaced if necessary?

After a bit of research, it seem replacing LCD backlight unit seem to be a straightforward repair. Not being able to repair it on Vizio TVs might go with the fact (as you said) that they don't carry inventory. But other things such as dead pixels that can go wrong with a panel (even from first tier company) that can make repair not economical.


So you're using one example to paint a broad brush about any product made in China? Sony also outsources the PS3 to Foxconn plants in China, which build the console in parallel to the units built by Sony-owned facilities in Japan.

But Foxconn is not a Chinese company although they do have plants there. There should be a distinction between Chinese own and non own manufactures. Chinese companies have different reliablity chart (see below), and guessing harder to repair and less parts available.


Apple products consistently have the highest reliability record in the industry, and all of them are built in China.

Where did you get that from? According to the reliability chart below, Apple (Foxconn) is #7.


A well-managed supply chain will ensure parts availability, no matter if they come from China or Mexico. But, aren't most Foxconn facilities in China to begin with?

Again, there should be distinction between Chinese own and outsourced companies. Chines owned companies have much less reliability perdictions than lets say Foxconn or Funai which rank higher.

Here is 70-year consumer electronics reliability average curve (perdiction) since 1960 which include 12 new Chinese OEM manufacturers . As you can see, Chinese own companies rank at bottom half:

1. Panasonic/Quasar
2. Toshiba
3. Sanyo/Fisher
4. Sharp
5. Sony
6. NEC/Fujitsu
7. Apple/Sharp/Sony (Foxconn)
8. Funai/Symphonic/Emerson/Magnavox/Philips/Sylvania/Toshiba
9. JVC
10. Orion/Sansui/Emerson/Hitachi/JVC/Toshiba
11. Hitachi
12. RCA/TCL
13. Dynex/Insignia/Prima (XOCECO)
14. Zenith
15. LG/GoldStar/Zenith
16. Vizio/Hitachi/JVC (Amtran)
17. RCA
18. Samsung
19. Hisense
20. Curtis Mathes
21. Toshiba (Compal)
22. Westinghouse/Apex/Element/Seiki (TongFang)
23. Daewoo
24. Phlips/Philco/Magnavox/Sylvania
25. Haier/iSymphony/Sigmac/Viore
26. Mitsubishi/MGA
27. Coby
28. RCA/GE/ProScan/Thomson
29. Curtis/GPX/Supersonic
30. Toshiba/RCA/Craig/Venturer (Alco)
31. Vizio/Apex/Digix/Dynex/Insignia/KCPI (Contel)

[Charlie04SiR]

There's my Quasar at the top....

Still working perfect after 29 years :yesnod:

[recoveryone]

Why are some companies listed twice? or even 3 times or more (Toshiba)

[Woochifer]

But Foxconn is not a Chinese company although they do have plants there. There should be a distinction between Chinese own and non own manufactures. Chinese companies have different reliablity chart (see below), and guessing harder to repair and less parts available.

Now you're totally copping out. Keep in mind that you brought up subject of Chinese plants in the first place is because of Panasonic outsourcing their low end LCD TV manufacturing. So, if you're now claiming that "there should a distinction between Chinese own and non own manufactures" why the hell did you even bring up the subject in the first place? Also, the unrepairable Vizio TVs cited in the article aren't made in China, so again what does China have to do with any of this?

And you still haven't answered my question about why country of origin would have anything to do with the repairability and/or parts availability. :3:


Where did you get that from? According to the reliability chart below, Apple (Foxconn) is #7.

Here.

Apple tops PCWorld reliability, satisfaction surveys | Macworld (http://www.macworld.com/article/1164091/apple_tops_pcworld_reliability_satisfaction_survey s.html)

Here.

Apple Tops J.D Power Satisfaction Survey For 7th Time (http://thenextweb.com/apple/2012/03/16/apple-tops-j-d-power-smartphone-customer-satisfaction-rankings-for-the-seventh-time-in-a-row/)

Here.

Apple Tops in Reliability Again, Mobile Ivy Bridge Road Map, Upgrade MacBook Memory, and More (http://lowendmac.com/bookrev/11br/1209.html#1)

Also, Foxconn is not the only manufacturer that Apple uses to assemble its products. Apple's supply chain operations also include capital investments in their suppliers' production lines. Foxconn is merely the assembler, with many of the components, such as their mobile chips, designed by and made exclusively for Apple.


Here is 70-year consumer electronics reliability average curve (perdiction) since 1960 which include 12 new Chinese OEM manufacturers . As you can see, Chinese own companies rank at bottom half:


First off, once again you don't name your source or link to it. A 70-year reliability average means absolutely nothing, because it includes a whole slew of products (and companies) that are no longer around. And it still doesn't say anything about your point that things with Panasonic "might be changing" -- and certainly nothing pertaining to out-of-warranty repairs or parts availability.

[Smokey]

Why are some companies listed twice? or even 3 times or more (Toshiba)

Because of fluctuations in outsourcing and buyouts. For example, Toshiba used to outsource from Orion, and then switched to Funai. And now it is from Compal and Alco.

[Smokey]

Now you're totally copping out. Keep in mind that you brought up subject of Chinese plants in the first place is because of Panasonic outsourcing their low end LCD TV manufacturing. So, if you're now claiming that "there should a distinction between Chinese own and non own manufactures" why the hell did you even bring up the subject in the first place?

Because as of now we don't know which company Panasonic is outsourcing from. If the company is indeed Chinese owned, both comments are probably true.

And here might be why. Take a look at reviews of LCDs made in China's own TCL (RCA) vs LCDs made from Foxconn (Sony) who also have plants in China. They are both made in China, but RCA always rank at bottom in term of quality and reliability. Now imagine Panasonic outsourcing from TCL, or even worse from Chinese electronic company Contel which ranked at the bottom of rating.


And you still haven't answered my question about why country of origin would have anything to do with the repairability and/or parts availability. :3:

I'm assuming :D

You probably have better luck repairing and finding parts if TV is Panasonic or Sony vs if TV is TCL or Hisense.


A 70-year reliability average means absolutely nothing, because it includes a whole slew of products (and companies) that are no longer around.

Some are not around as real compnay, but they do exist as a name badge for the company that bought them out. Buyers can lower their risk by purchasing one of the top ten most reliable brands/manufacturers in the world, assuming the products they buy were not outsourced or rebadged to another manufacturer.

[Woochifer]

Because as of now we don't know which company Panasonic is outsourcing from. If the company is indeed Chinese owned, both comments are probably true.

And here might be why. Take a look at reviews of LCDs made in China's own TCL (RCA) vs LCDs made from Foxconn (Sony) who also have plants in China. They are both made in China, but RCA always rank at bottom in term of quality and reliability. Now imagine Panasonic outsourcing from TCL, or even worse from Chinese electronic company Contel which ranked at the bottom of rating.

But, you were first making a generalization about Chinese made products (not just TVs). Then when you got flagged on that point, you then backtracked to say that it's the country of ownership and not the country of origin that matters. And now, you're saying that you don't really know. Of course, keep in mind that this whole subject originated because of Vizio, and those TVs aren't even built in China. So, I ask again, why the hell did you bring up the subject in the first place?


I'm assuming :D

You probably have better luck repairing and finding parts if TV is Panasonic or Sony vs if TV is TCL or Hisense.

And you're assuming yet again, because you don't really know what the actual relationship is between the company and the outsourcer (i.e., who actually designs the TV and specifies the parts). Nor do you know anything about the supply chain, specifically as it pertains to spare parts availability.


Some are not around as real compnay, but they do exist as a name badge for the company that bought them out. Buyers can lower their risk by purchasing one of the top ten most reliable brands/manufacturers in the world, assuming the products they buy were not outsourced or rebadged to another manufacturer.

Yes, but again you're making presumptions here that the outsourced TVs are designed by the outsource manufacturer and not Sony or Panasonic. I know that Foxconn's relationships with Sony and Apple involve taking a finished design and basically assembling the products, with most of the major components sent to them from outside suppliers.

[Smokey]

Yes, but again you're making presumptions here that the outsourced TVs are designed by the outsource manufacturer and not Sony or Panasonic.

And you are assuming the opposite :)

Toshiba also outsource their products and there is no way their outsourced products are as good as one made by Toshiba. Just check out CL and there is a much higher % of toshiba LCDs sold for parts/as-is vs other brands.

Going back little further, Toshiba used to make some of best CRT TV in industry especially with their lower end brand labled "SuperTube" TV as I owned one. But once they started to outsource their CRT in 2006, quality dropped big time. I bought one of outsourced 32 inch Toshiba TV back in 2006 and it was nothing like the 32 inch TV made by Toshiba which I used to own. Took it back the next day.

[markw]

IIRC, CRT TV sets were pretty much on the endangered species list by 2006 and the fact that anyone was even making them at all is a bit of a miracle.

[Smokey]

IIRC, CRT TV sets were pretty much on the endangered species list by 2006 and the fact that anyone was even making them at all is a bit of a miracle.

2006 was probably the last year CRT TVs were made by major manufactures.

When I took back Toshiba to Sears in that year which was around May, the only new CRT TV models I saw were from Sony, Samsung and Sharp. Panasonic already had quit making CRTs previous year.