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RGA
04-04-2012, 09:16 PM
My last thread appears to have been deleted.

Anyway, I auditioned some things and passed over others due to what I consider to be used prices that are far too high - though I could negotiate.

Speakers in consideration:
Epos 11
Revolver R33
Quad 21L and 12L
Harbeth HL K6ES
ATC SMC11
Tannoy DC8
B&W DM110i
Tannoy 628

Electronics:
Audiolab 8000a and 8000c preamp ($995 for both)
VTL 120/50 ($1800US)
Conrad Johnson PV11/MV52 ($2,300US for both)
Cary SLA Sli9 (could not find info on this amp but asking $1k US)
Dared MP2a3 or MP 300B (about $850 US each)
Creek A50ir
Audio Refinement Complete CD player
Audio Note Dac Zero and CDT Zero transport ($1300US for both)

I enjoyed the Revolver speakers more than some of the others - first time I've heard Revolver. A little more personality but a little more openness and dynamics and jump factor than the polite Quads. But often in a short audition the jump factor speakers stand out while the Quads may be better on a longer session.

The Dared stuff is new and looks pretty cool. I like that the tube in the middle gives you a clipping reading - so you know if the tube amp is being pushed into distortion or not. A built in meter but the tube displays the information.

Also saw a really nice Project turntable - the sexy looking ones (RPM 5.1 I believe) for $600US new. I remember liking their lower models far more than my Rega P2 clone.

The problem with the used gear is that the sticker price seems really high. Their English is zero and The AX Two standmount is about $5,000 HKD which is slightly more than the Epos 11 and not quite as much as they're asking for the Revolver. I will audition the AX Two again but it's much better than the Quads and doesn't have some of the box and treble issues that the ATC SMC or Tannoys seemed to possess. The Harbeths are $1300 US and while nice is creeping out of budget and is apparently difficult to drive.

Any input on Dared? I have read reports on AA that people shilled them heavily in the past and one poster didin't think they competed with other makes for the same money.

The Audiolab SS gear also holds interest largely due to the immense amount of raves and best in class awards the British press piles onto them. Their CD player/DAC/Preamp unit and 32 bit processing which is designed in Canada is intriguing. They imply that the numbers are a bit of marketing but then they say it's the best sound in it's class - so maybe there is something to the marketing. Have not heard it so I don't know. Audiolab 8200CD review from the experts at whathifi.com (http://www.whathifi.com/Review/Audiolab-8200CD/)


But again the new prices are not all that much more...

They also had an old set of Allison 115 that looked in great shape for $200. But I suspect these were before my time. But they were asking a hair over $200US. Problem might be getting them serviced down the line as they're pretty old.

Enochrome
04-04-2012, 10:33 PM
Man RGA that is a lot of gear.

What is this, a second system? It seems like you are matching low level to high level hi-fi gear. I have not heard any of those speakers, yet the Harbeth and Tannoys seem intriguing.

frenchmon
04-05-2012, 04:07 AM
What where the Epos 11 like? And how different are they compared to the Harbeths?

Hyfi
04-05-2012, 04:21 AM
Lots of Harberth lovers over at Karma. Not sure how you liked the B&Ws but just before I typed this out with a non recommendation I looked at some other opinions which were similar. They can be boring. You would be better of with a pair of Dynaudio 42s or 52s but they are not on your list. The Tannoys look interesting. The Revolvers look to be a nice pair with a typical UK sound, made in Cornwall home of the Pasty.

You need to decide on a speaker or amp first, then match the other. It does not look like any speaker on your list will match nicely with every amp or vice versa.

Looks like fun deciding tho, good luck.

Feanor
04-05-2012, 05:08 AM
From this list ...


...
Electronics:
Audiolab 8000a and 8000c preamp ($995 for both)
VTL 120/50 ($1800US)
Conrad Johnson PV11/MV52 ($2,300US for both)
Cary SLA Sli9 (could not find info on this amp but asking $1k US)
Dared MP2a3 or MP 300B (about $850 US each)
Creek A50ir
Audio Refinement Complete CD player
Audio Note Dac Zero and CDT Zero transport ($1300US for both ...
I'd very much like to hear the VTL and Conrad Johnson gear. They would provide a distinctly different character than what I'm listening to now. Whether I'd like what I'd hear better would remain to be see (heard).

The other stuff doesn't appeal. Either there would be little difference than what I've got, or I strongly suspect they would be less good, (and generally more expensive).

frenchmon
04-05-2012, 05:20 PM
I'v listened to the Harbeth a spell and remember a rich midsection but lacking in the upper ranges. That was at the store tho, and would love to take a listen to them again. Yes Art k and a few others over a audiokarma as well as audio asylum love them. I have yet to hear Epos but outside of that one batch that got bad reviews with the bad tweeter a few years back, they get excellent scores. Living in Durham North Carolina, 45 minutes from Cary North Carolina, I've heard Cary audio many a times....wonderful stuff. but the ConradJohnson gear....well syrupy warm...a tad to sweet in my book.

Poultrygeist
04-05-2012, 06:24 PM
I love my Dared MP-2a3c single ended triode amp which walks all over push pulls and ss gear but is not up to the level of my Paramour 2a3 mono-blocks. My friend in Charlotte has modded his Dared and I may do the same with mine.

High end replacement caps in low end Chinese amps can make an incredible difference. I learned this with my Jolida JD9 mods.

RGA
04-05-2012, 07:48 PM
Poultrygeist

I am very tempted on this amp because I generally prefer SETS and Dared has been around for long enough that it isn't smoke and mirrors. I also believe they've OEMed for other companies like VUUM which sold in London Drugs in Canada.

Do you know what the U.S. list price is for the 2a3 so I have an idea of how much to negotiate?

RGA
04-05-2012, 08:23 PM
Hyfi

certainly that's my usual advice "system synergy" over components. You can take otherwise great components and get lousy sound (or lousy for the money anyway).

All:

In my last thread I noted that the used shop was very cramped and any real audition is not possible. the store happened to be playing the revolvers in a room with probably 50 pairs of speakers and the Revolvers still managed to sound quite good considering they were on stands at ear height while standing.

Most of the equipment is vacuum wrapped in plastic. It's used gear and they sell to people who know what they want apparently.

There were many many other speakers and amplifiers and CD players: Plenty of Dynaudios, Sonu Faber, Mordaunt Short, MB Quart, Heco, Monitor Audio, Elac, B&W Matrix, 602S2 and 602S3, Canton, ProAc, Spendor, Charo, Mission, Paradigm, Wharfedale, Kef Reference, older Kef 102, Klipsch, JBL, Focal.

And just as many amplifier CD player brands (Tons of McIntosh tube amps, several amps from Jadis, Quad, Arcam, Cambridge Audio, Micro-Omega, Meridian, Cyrus, Threshold, Wadia, Levinson, Krell, Bryston, Cal Labs, Sonic Frontiers, Tanberg Parasound, Adcom, Classe, lots of Musical Fidelity and Nuvista gear, etc. I didn't list largely because I felt the used asking prices were on the high side. The Bryston gear was actually somewhat reasonable - a Bryston 4BST and their preamp of that era for $2k for both. But Bryston preamps are unlistenable to me. Classe had a pre/pro that seemed reasonably priced but Classe doesn't quite do it for me.

The ability to audition is seriously limited so the intent somewhat is to take a chance on it by reputation - the speakers I can audition but the choice of front ends will be limited to their opened displays I think.

I always prefer speakers that allow me to listen to a variety of amplifiers so the LE hard to drive speakers like the ATCs are off the list. Some Harbeths are off the list some are not.

The AudioLab gear I researched somewhat and it seemed to be polarizing - a lot of comments about it being too analytical and bright and that newer versions are better. So I'm largely off that track. CJ is typically described as a little too the other end of the spectrum (which IMO is the better end to be on if you have to choose an end). It's Easter so the Audio Note dealer is close - I was hoping to go there today to try the AX Two standmount - I want to try the Epos 11 as these two are about the same price. The AX Two has been a bit of a giant killer for me for quite awhile.

I will also try the AN K/Spe (which I owned) - it just won loudspeaker of the year in the press here. I find that somewhat amusing since they've been selling it since 1990 - which illustrates the progress of loudspeakers that a 20 year old speaker (30 if you count Snell) wins such an award. But it costs 5 times the money of the AX Two so we'll see if they have an old demo lying around for cheap. It's the perfect size for my apartment and can be driven off of 3 watts but also sounded very good with my Sugden A48b 70 watt SS amp.

The Audio Notes obviously have a strong influence on mere here because HyFi reminded me that it is about synergy - it's important to have the speaker mesh with your front end gear. I did see a K/Spe in Poplar burl with rubber surrounds so it's a bit older. We'll see but they retail for $3k in the U.S. Eesh.

Poultrygeist
04-06-2012, 02:40 AM
I bought my Dared from this guy based near Chicago who also sells on A'gon. $800 seems the going price.

Dared MP-2A3C 2a3 SET tube amp, new US limit Ed | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dared-MP-2A3C-2a3-SET-tube-amp-new-US-limit-Ed/260995676716)

RGA
04-06-2012, 03:41 AM
Thanks that's about what it goes for here as the asking price. I have sent Dared an e-mail to see if they would like it reviewed. It seems only their higher end models have been reviewed but not everyone can afford $3,500 on a tube amp.

I am really curious to see what they can do sub $1k.

Enochrome
04-06-2012, 03:45 PM
I just spotted a pair of Snell Ell's at my local swap meet this weekend for $100.
I'll pick them up, ship'em to ya, you put $500 worth of Audio Note parts = end of discussion :thumbsup::cornut:


.....by the way did anyone catch my "low-level to hi-level" joke?

RGA your all Hi-(level)-Fi..right?!


By the way everyone should check out Roy Hargrove's "Ear Food". Just picked it up from Amazon. Great fun of a jazz level.

YBArcam
04-06-2012, 04:14 PM
I had the Quad 12L2 for a bit. I think the older 12L is often regarded as the better speaker. I ended up preferring Castle and PMC to Quad. The 12L2 for whatever reason were very boomy on my speaker stands, and sounded a little too congested and yes, polite.

I also had an Audiolab 8000A integrated at one point. I much prefer my Exposure amp for it's amazing clarity, composure, and drive. In comparison, the 8000A sounded like there was a sheet placed over the speaker drivers.

RGA
04-07-2012, 06:20 PM
Well I sure had an interesting day auditioning a bucket load of gear in Mongkok.

There is a giant building with store after store covering 21 floors. Everything from Sugden A21se to Sugden Mystro speakers (Sugden makes a speaker? I know now.

I was in one shop that had some very lovely Chario speakers for under $500 US. Just not finding something like that in Canada built that well that looks that nice for that money. There was a fellow auditioning an uber built CD player from Cayin which is not available in the U.S at $1k. Once again the build quality is ridiculous and it sounded really quite good. The fellow auditioning was deciding between it and the famed Shanling CD player - he ended up buying both CD players as he felt the Shanling had better bass while the Cayin was better in the mids.

Turns out after talking to him he is the guy who designs King Sound loudspeakers - small world. So I hope to get a pair of his Queen speakers to review - we'll see.

I ran across Zu Audio Essence loudspeakers connected to this pictured Frankenstein of a tube amp with in house OEM'd tube cd player

The tube amp is absolutely gorgeous sounding using 845 tubes on the outputs and 300b as driver stages to give you a whopping 24 watts in SET. As you know that is serious power for a SET. The amplifier has massive transformers weighing in at over 160lbs

"LM Audio 219IA 845 SET integrated Amplifier. 24 watt Single Ended Class A. 300B driver tubes, 310A input tubes. Adjustable bias via built in meters. Remote controlled. 4,8 and 16 ohm taps. Negative feedback adjustable and defeatable. Pre-amp input. Power output via meters. Two power transformers for true dual mono operation. Point to point wired throughout. Comes with a tube cage."

The price "$3k U.S. I double checked - $30k right? No $3k. You have to be kidding. I know $3k is a lot of money for most people but this is ridiculous - and the quality of sound ain't no $3k affair - this was stunning.

The Zu I was somewhat worried due to the comments I read on some forums about them and the Stereophile measured results. But the result of this combination really worked here and while I did here some speaker inbalances on the whole and given the price it was a deeply rewarding combination. The same dealer also carries Rogue Audio's complete line and Melody tube amps - I shall go back when I have more time. But keep an eye out for Line Magnetic. I was looking at my bank account to see if I could do something to get this thing.

RGA
04-10-2012, 06:36 AM
The Journey continues to build a quality budget stereo system and one step has been completed and purchased.

I decided to go back and audition Line Magnetic (LM) gear based on the staggeringly good sound I heard with the 219a and Zu Audio Essence Loudspeakers. Still what could Tube gear like LM and Melody do with the store owner's SCM 150 Loudspeakers and modest LM 215CD player. Let me pick my jaw up off the floor. For those that don't know ATC makes notoriously tough to drive speakers and tube amps that have trouble have trouble because they use puny ass transformers - the inexpensive LM amps and the more expensive but not that much more Melody amps ate the ATC's for breakfast - no problem play loud with full bodied bass and ridiculously clean treble response.

No I didn't buy an amp because I wanted to hear the stripped down 219a called the 218a which is half the price but uses 845 output tubes - they were sold out and it will be a couple weeks before they came in.

No I bought the Line Magnetic LM-215 CD player which unlike a lot of tube CD players that seem to use the tube as a tone control had first rate drama and incredible extension into the upper treble (Barber's Platoon theme as I call it) and everything was clear open transparent with goosebumps factor set to high.

Line Magnetic has operated since 1995 but before that they have been an OEM for many of the west's bigger named stuff - but they're most respected for restoring Western Electric amplifiers (which may explain their looks). Everything is hand made and point to point wired.

Keep an eye out for this brand - they are sold in the US through Tone Audio Imports who import Shindo Tone Imports (http://www.toneimports.com/)

Feanor
04-10-2012, 08:27 AM
... I bought the Line Magnetic LM-215 CD player which unlike a lot of tube CD players that seem to use the tube as a tone control had first rate drama and incredible extension into the upper treble (Barber's Platoon theme as I call it) and everything was clear open transparent with goosebumps factor set to high.
...
I like the look; I've always preferred a functional but sleek appearance in a component.

http://forums.audioreview.com/attachments/general-audio/8658d1334068593-update-system-build-lm-215-1.jpg

RGA
04-11-2012, 03:00 AM
The only problem with the CD player is the instructions are all in Chinese - LOL. So it's nice when it's dead easy to operate but Heaven help you if you buy a 7.1 receiver with multi-room and source :mad2:

After auditiong numerous speakers over the last weeks from Harbeth, Rogers LS3/5a/ATC SCM 11/Mission 762 and MX 2, B&W PM1, Paradigm Signature S2, Magnepan Standmounts (yes they have a standmount!) Chario loudspeakers, Dynaudio Contour standmounts, PMC TB2, Acoustic Energy speakers, Rogers speakers, Elac, Spendor, Mistrel (really nice for the price) , Ruark, Spendor, and a few others including the Roksan TR-5 that I just reviewed -

The Audio Note AX Two simply won out. I said it 5 years ago that they were the best speakers under $1500 and auditioning all these speakers that view didn't really change. The treble extension isn't with some of the others - nor do they possess the "punch" of many of them - but on acoustic material piano singer capturing the hall - and the goosebump factor with music like Loreena McKennitt, strings it's just a truly beautiful speaker to listen to. I simply don't know how these guys make money on a $650 US loudspeaker that is hand built in Denmark has to be shipped includes duties. Granted they had the advantage of following the notion of source first and having a very high level AN rig running them it had very superior information being fed. But the thing is - even with the $100k of front end gear attached it didn't seem out of place.

PS: I bought them - and I paid full price for them.The Roksan and one of the Charios were my runner ups. If Rock/Pop was my main thing then I would have probably went with the punchier harder hitting bass speakers like the SCM 11 which has an accuracy and exacting nature that I liked a lot but it possesses a bit of an edgier presentation (the 150 is better but 18 times the price).

The Budget creation system with a goal of sub $2k is getting closer to completion.

RGA
04-12-2012, 04:21 AM
Day 1 with the AX Two standmounts

I decided to check the noise rejection of the CD player to see if there would be any bleed from the Trends Audio tube preamp. No hum or any other spurious noise. The little Trends amps perform admirably.

I will comment on the room issues and sonics on the website at a later date.

RGA
04-12-2012, 04:31 AM
Day 2

Waiting for the appropriate adhesives (given that the walls are concrete the usual method of using an adhesive spray to glue the foam to wood and then nail the board into the wall is not going to work. I am will try the two sided tape made for foam - a little skeptical but worth a shot. So this is the makeshift set-up. I have started with 16 panels. I am using the stereo stand I had strictly for the LCD so I will be on the hunt for a Stereo rack or perhaps just amplifier stands.

RGA
04-13-2012, 08:54 PM
Line Magnetic makes CNET news - love it Listen before you buy a hi-fi, what a great idea | The Audiophiliac - CNET News (http://news.cnet.com/8301-13645_3-57403927-47/listen-before-you-buy-a-hi-fi-what-a-great-idea/?tag=txt;title)

Basically they're remaking Western Electric stuff of old and based on the sound quality that I've heard out of them it's a shame they ever left.

Hyfi
04-17-2012, 04:17 AM
Hey, since you seem to be in the right place, have you had a chance to listen to any of the JAS speakers?

Orior or Orsa?
Dignity International Ltd (http://www.jas-audio.com/index_topic.php?did=159790&didpath=/156720/159790)

RGA
04-17-2012, 04:34 PM
According to their distributor list they are not sold or no longer sold in Hong Kong.

Mash
04-17-2012, 06:09 PM
Aww........ come on man....... this is like watching paint dry....

or maybe the usual "high-end" audio equipment review...

Cut to the chase....

RGA
04-18-2012, 12:15 AM
The idea of this is that most veteran audiophiles already own system what would you do if you started from scratch and built or a smaller room on a tighter than usual budget. I think the idea is an interesting one - if you don't, don't read it. My goal is to build a system at about 1/8 the retail cost of my current system and still have an all-day enjoyable sound with future upgrade potential in that each component won't be out of place in far costlier systems.

For the newbie - it gives them some alternate brands to consider (and to try and turn over more stones). That is easier in Hong Kong since the stores are basically CES on top of each other. While in the U.S. you're basically forced to go to an audio show to audition anything (and usually not able to try several amps or sources on the same speakers).

It will be a few weeks before this is complete as I am waiting for a dealer to stock a few amps that I am interested in. At a roughly 1/8 price point it rules out certain favorites.

I have auditioned enough SS to know that the only one that would be in this price that I would like enough would be the Sugden amps. But they don't compete with better tubes - and better tubes are now the same price or less money than the Sugdens.

I auditioned Bel Canto for Class D - not impressed just as I wasn't impressed many years ago. I am currently reviewing Class T amplifiers and they're actually very good. For the money this technology is quite musical with enough grip and control that I'm not surprised by their success.

Some of the amps under consideration are as follows: AN211 from Melody's sister company - Line Magnetic's 845 based amp and Melody's 300B (will also compare Rogue, Almarro, and Line Magnetic's 300B as well as an OEM version of Unison Research's S6 amplifier. Unison Research price $3000. OEM version $600 for the exact same thing without the fancy logo.

bobsticks
04-18-2012, 10:50 AM
I'v listened to the Harbeth a spell and remember a rich midsection but lacking in the upper ranges...

They tend to need a good bit of amp to get the best out of them. That not withstanding, I'm surprised they didn't make it deeper into the cut in RGA's tourney...


certainly that's my usual advice "system synergy" over components. You can take otherwise great components and get lousy sound (or lousy for the money anyway).

That much we agree on completely.

RGA
04-18-2012, 03:24 PM
Bobsticks

Part of the sound is the presentation provided by a dealer. It's not to say that the AX Two is necessarily better than a give Harbeth but the resulting sound in the overall system set-up was better. I had an emotional response with the AX Two that I didn't even get with the SCM 150 - the front end gear attached is important. Linn has been saying that for decades.

One dealer here pointed out that manufacturers need to be careful who they choose to sell their products because if you can't show it properly then people will get a lesser sense of the sound - or a negative sense of the sound. Like Klipsch and Athena selling at Best Buy in a wall of speakers - you can't really hear them anywhere near their best so they're relegated as being cheap mid-fi while same priced B&W is considered high end when really it's not better it's just that you get to hear them at their best in dedicated rooms with better gear.

And the AX Two is no slouch. Hanging in with a $100k system is completely absurd (in a good way).

RGA
04-18-2012, 06:14 PM
Wow - as an aside - could it be that John Atkinson is coming around to Art Dudley's take on the AN E? It's a slow creep up and grab you loudspeaker and if John would simply take the engineering hat off - and just sit back and listen then ...

The corner placement required by Audio Note speakers always raises my eyebrows—there was even a mirror next to one of the speakers!—but the sound of Ivan Moravec performing Brahms late piano works, the Op.118 Intermezzi, on a secondhand Turnabout LP, was extraordinarily engaging on the Audio Note AN-E Lexus Signature loudspeakers. This was the last room I visited Saturday night and I didn’t feel the need to visit any more rooms for more music.

I'm patient - even the measurement freaks will come around given enough time. They're too right, too natural, to real, and too good.

Stereophile's Ariel Biltran
Nestling in with Audio Note | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/nestling-audio-note?destination=node%2F85216#.T47sGTHd-Gc.facebook)

Now I want them to get the AX Two - At $19k a speaker should be good - nothing less should be expected than greatness at that money. At under a grand is the fun stuff.

YBArcam
04-24-2012, 09:50 PM
I have auditioned enough SS to know that the only one that would be in this price that I would like enough would be the Sugden amps. But they don't compete with better tubes - and better tubes are now the same price or less money than the Sugdens.

Well given how you feel RGA I doubt you're going to be swayed by a relatively inexpensive SS amp. But...have you ever heard the Exposure 2010s2? I think it's fantastic and probably one of the best buys at it's price. I don't have near the listening experience that you do. I recall you said you liked Creek and Simaudio for their SS efforts (or at least they were not bad). I've not done a comparison against Creek, but I thought the 2010s2 was much better than the Simaudio i-1, at least in my system (and that's paired with a Sim CD player). It also easily beat an Audiolab 8000A.

Art Dudley absolutely loved the amp in his review, and I find much of what he says is how I feel about the amp. The foundation (bass and mid bass) the amp lays for the music, the drive that it has, the composure, the clarity and transparency, the extended and clean highs; they are all fantastic and it's hard for me to imagine better (at least with this type of amp). The 2010s2 is very simply designed for great sound quality. As Dudley points out though, it's key to use low capacitance cables, and I found that doing so improved the sound dramatically (LFD and Nordost are said to work well, and I in fact use the former).

Speaking of LFD, there is another highly regarded British SS amp. Quite a bit more expensive than Exposure though.

RGA
04-24-2012, 10:26 PM
Yes I have found a number of SS amps I like for the money but in general I would not buy them unless they compete with good SETs - and so far not one of them does - not at $1k not at $10k not at $100k.

I have no doubt the Exposure is good value for the coin - so is the Roksan, Sugden, Heed Audio, Creek Audio among others. My time with Sim Audio was short so I don't want to get into where I would place it.

A lot has changed in Art's system since 2005 when he reviewed Exposure - he currently owns Shindo and Audio Note speakers are his main reference.

SS and AN speakers generally are not a good match.

This has nothing to do with the Exposure or the "good" solid state amps but system synergy is critical and an otherwise excellent amplifier can simply be a poor match with certain designs. AN drivers operate differently than most others.

So it's less about the amplifier and more about how the amplifier operates with a given set of speakers.

I don't have the technical background so I am forced to somewhat generalize things to Feedback, damping factor, SE operation, class A.

There are always exceptions to generalized rules mind you but in general unless people I trust say otherwise I don't have the time to try out designs that seem to follow the same patterns of design I don't like. Art Dudley is an ear I trust - and he noted they stopped using Mosfets. So perhaps....

YBArcam
04-25-2012, 06:44 PM
So I take it that MOSFET amps don't work great with AN speakers?

What you say makes sense though. You shouldn't go to any great lengths to hear the 2010s2 given your preferences which have been formed over many years of listening. But if you happen to come across this amp it might be worth hearing. I forgot about the fact that I also compared the Exposure to a Unison Research Unico P and an Anthem 225. The Exposure won out, though it was closer than against the Audiolab and Simaudio amps. It's just been a great amp that continues to impress.

I agree with you about synergy between speakers and amps. I suspect one reason the Exposure works well for me is that I have paired it with British speakers (Castle and PMC), and of course the amp has no issue driving them comfortably.

RGA
04-25-2012, 10:31 PM
People have driven SS with Audio Note - and liked the results. So I don't want to say it doesn't work - but I think it is more based on expectations and the idea of what "good" really is and what it means. I happily drove a Sugden A48b with AN speakers. And I was happy until I heard what I was missing. Sometimes it's better to be ignorant of what is possible sometimes.

I don't have the engineering but apparently AN drivers act as radiating drivers rather than pistons is the layman response I got. The reason they want AN amps connected is because the amp transformer is designed specifically for the impedance and frequency behavior of the speakers (they call it mirror imaging). SETs have a general behavior perhaps that the speakers respond better to. Perhaps lower damping factors.

If I see one I'll try it out. Hopefully it won't be in the wall-o-gear that they had the Sugdens in. That store was disappointing.

E-Stat
04-27-2012, 06:38 AM
So I take it that MOSFET amps don't work great with AN speakers?
The type of output device per se isn't the issue. It is how the circuit is designed and most importantly, how it reacts to a given speaker's load. AN's are voiced using high output impedance amps which alters its FR as compared to low impedance amps (most SS). You need an amp that matches that characteristic.

The First Watt F2, for example, is one SS amp using MOSFET outputs that would likely work pretty well given its high output impedance (low damping factor).

First Watt F2 (http://firstwatt.com/f2.html)


I agree with you about synergy between speakers and amps.
Absolutely, although it really doesn't have to do with the country of origin! The VTL tube amps that sound great driving my stats fare poorly with the Advents in the vintage system. It is the speaker that determines the most suitable amp to drive it.

YBArcam
04-27-2012, 07:40 PM
The type of output device per se isn't the issue. It is how the circuit is designed and most importantly, how it reacts to a given speaker's load. AN's are voiced using high output impedance amps which alters its FR as compared to low impedance amps (most SS). You need an amp that matches that characteristic.

The First Watt F2, for example, is one SS amp using MOSFET outputs that would likely work pretty well given its high output impedance (low damping factor).

First Watt F2 (http://firstwatt.com/f2.html)

Good to know and interesting stuff. You really need to know what works best to find the right match.



Absolutely, although it really doesn't have to do with the country of origin! The VTL tube amps that sound great driving my stats fare poorly with the Advents in the vintage system. It is the speaker that determines the most suitable amp to drive it.

Yes, of course. I didn't mean that country of origin is the reason per se. It's the electrical characteristics of both amp and speaker that determines a suitable match. That said, I gather that many British speakers tend to work well with many British amps, as the Brits tend to favour certain ideals that extend across brands. Of course, it wouldn't be across the board, but in the entry level space you've got Rega, Naim, Exposure, Roksan and perhaps one or two more that work well with speakers from EPOS, Castle, Rega, Linn, PMC, Harbeth, etc.

RGA
04-28-2012, 03:03 AM
Good to know and interesting stuff. You really need to know what works best to find the right match.


I suppose it's interesting but he claims to only have made 100 of them. There is no price listed - and one still needs to actually hear it. Although based on what I have heard from Pass over the years - he is one of the only SS manufacturers where when I listen it consistently sounds good and even brings up the level of some speakers that have sounded poor previously.

Unfortunately, it's not a particularly practical exception to the general rule if there are only 100 of them or if they're more expensive than good SET amplifiers already on the market for $2k - $4k.

RGA
06-11-2012, 05:39 AM
Well the amp decision has been made. Factoring in that this is a budget system build where every component would be under $2k on average I felt that the Cheap SET amps I was auditioning were not cutting it. I just wasn't getting what I wanted and what I want is a Meishu but they cost beyond reason. One day maybe.

I may still get the 219Ia since I really liked it but a $7,500 amplifier is still not budget.

After auditioning Rogue Audio, Melody, Audio Space, Dared, Line Magnetic, and a few second hand items from CJ, Cary, Jadis It ended up coming down to Line Magnetic and Audio Space. Yeah who would have thought.

And it came down to both of their EL 34 based amplifiers. Sound quality was on par - I'd be happy with either one. The Line Magnetic has a remote control but to counter that feature the Audio Space has a full transformer headphone output.

The Audio Space won out. Interestingly I was there to make sure I wanted to review their speakers but their amps won me over. The speaker has a heads up is the best of these LS3/5a models I've heard - they really impressed me and I look forward to pitting them against the AX Two. Finally the AX Two has serious competition. They also make a cheaper version of the LS3/5a called the Gini but it sounded rather poor - it was a lot cheaper though but the build seems cheap and the slapped together. I heard Harbeth's version which was better but it had a lilt in the upper midrange treble that was not bad but I dunno just something not quite nice sounding - the regular Harbeth models sound better.

I tried the Kt 88s but despite being a little pricier I preferred the slightly warmer presentation here from the EL 34.

Switching between ultra-linear and triode
Switching between high and low negative feedback
Switching between direct and line input
Headphone jack
tube circuitry with choke coil
Point to point soldering

Output Power: 2 x 16W (Triode - Class AB Push-Pull)
2 x 32W (Ultralinear- Class AB Push-Pull)
Output Impedance : 4, 8 ohm
Input : Single-ended RCA x 3
Vacuum Tubes: 1 x 6N9P (6SL7 or ECC35)
2 x 6N8P (6SN7 or ECC32)
4 x EL34 (6CA7)
Dimensions (W x H x D): 255 x 176 x 316 mm

Hyfi
06-12-2012, 04:42 AM
What is the exact model of the amp? Having trouble matching the pic to the model on the site?

RGA
06-12-2012, 05:47 AM
Yes they sell slightly different models to different countries - some models are everywhere like the bigger models but it's called the Mini-2 (SE). There used to be an amp called the Mini Houston which seems similar but it had different driver tubes and a few less features. The Mini-2 is the newer better version from what I can tell.

I liked the sound better than the AS series KT 88s and 34s. But that is preference as I liked the sound but it was a little more hi-fi and a little less relaxing on music you should be able to relax to.

This is the amplifier in Silver Integrated Amplifier - Mini-2SE Vacuum Tube Integrated Mini Amplifier product_info - Audiospace Tube amplifier,Integrated amplifier,Valve amplifier Audiospace Tube amplifier,Integrated amplifier,Valve amplifier (http://audiospace.com.au/p14/Mini-2SE/product_info.html?CDpath=3)

Poultrygeist
06-12-2012, 11:22 AM
This one is similar but somewhat surprised you didn't get a SET.

NEW AS-3iENGLAND 'EL34 Triode Connect. VALVE amplifier | eBay (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-AS-3iENGLAND-EL34-Triode-Connect-VALVE-amplifier-/310215396084?pt=UK_AudioTVElectronics_HomeAudioHiF i_Amplifiers&hash=item483a474af4)

RGA
06-12-2012, 03:26 PM
I auditioned the AS amp but I didn't quite like it as much. It has a different circuit and uses different input/driver tubes. The Mini-2 isn't as dark or brooding.

No it isn't a SET but like I say the cheap SETs I heard from some of the others I didn't care for - it doesn't win just because it's a SET - SETs require quality transformers and that requires money. The 300B is a simpler design and so it's easier to make a good one but there are few inexpensive 300Bs. The Audio Space Ref 3.1 is around $6,000 or nearly 4 times the price. The Meishu Silver Sig (granted their top version) is now $20,600. As Philip Holmes mentioned it comes down to the transformer design and they make the best transformers in his view "ever" which is why they cost large.

On the budget system I was looking at $5k for the cheapest Line Magnetic and 300B with only 8 watts unfortunately limit what I can review. Even the OTO has gone up in price since I bought mine. When I bought the OTO in 2005 or so it was about $3k now it's approaching $5k. And the OTO is a SEP

This amp opens my review options up while sounding very nice not having some of the grating qualities of SS or some Push Pull amps that sound overly lean.

I may still purchase the Line Magnetic 218 mini which is an EL84 SET with 3 watts per channel. Jack Roberts bought one already and likes it and Philip also noted that the EL84 is tough to screw up. I have to try it again.

I'd like to have several different amplifiers to mix and match across various systems.

Poultrygeist
06-12-2012, 06:04 PM
I've had the following push pulls in my home for extended stays yet none could resolve detail at low levels as well as my cheapest Chinese SET: Primaluna Prologue One, HK Citation, Dynaco ST70, HH Scott, Jolida 202, and Fisher 500.

RGA
06-13-2012, 12:23 AM
I've had the following push pulls in my home for extended stays yet none could resolve detail at low levels as well as my cheapest Chinese SET: Primaluna Prologue One, HK Citation, Dynaco ST70, HH Scott, Jolida 202, and Fisher 500.

I have not heard the Scott or the Fisher but I think the Audio Space is considerably better than the 202a, Dynaco ST70 and Primaluna. The 202a I have the most experience with and their 302B.

Granted people do modify the ST 70 and claim greatness but the one I heard was pretty dreadful.

Nothing beats a good SET on low level resolution (The Audio Space is no Audio Note). The Audio Space isn't an end of the road amplifier by any means - it's good for the kind of amplifier that it is against amps I've heard in the same price class and similar architecture.

A SET will come down the line. Basically the Mini-2 is to hold the fort down, sounds "good" and gives me something to listen to until I can spend the time wading through various Single Ended options. I'd like to hear the Audio Space SETs as well as LM, Melody, Audio Note, and some others.

YBArcam
06-14-2012, 08:20 PM
RGA, what did you think of the Rogue? Was it the Cronus that you listened to? I might purchase a preamp later this year and it will likely come down to Rogue, Audio Space, and PrimaLuna.

RGA
06-14-2012, 09:10 PM
YBArcam

I would definitely try to add Line Magnetic to the list/

The thing is they're all quite good. Tube amps have slight to significant variations on the sound. Just within the Audio Space line-up the sound difference is quite different - I liked them all but one seemed to sound more expansive and had more treble while another was better in the bass and richer sounding tonally - and it will depend on your speaker and taste - I liked them both so it will depend on the speakers.

Rogue is a good brand I liked them when I heard them. I prefer the Line Magnetic simply because it appears to be built a bit better (appears beefier than the Cronus) has more options and is less expensive. Audio Space is on par with Line Magnetic.

That said I doubt you can go wrong with any of them - it's a matter of which one do you like the looks of - which one gives you the features and looks you like. The cronus is more money but it also includes a phono stage and remote control so that offsets the price difference somewhat.

The Line Magnetic has the remote but no phono stage or headphone out. The AS has the headphone out but no phono stage or remote.

You have to weigh the importance of those since the phono stages tend to be cheap (not great) affiars in this price range and remote control is another switch that affects sound quality (how much or how little depends on the units and design).

Also - resale factor - I would think the Rogue has higher resale value - (though you never know).

It's harder in the west to audition stuff close by. In HK all the high end shops are very close so you can audition it all minutes apart to get an idea.

YBArcam
06-15-2012, 10:00 AM
Thanks, of course it's true that the best match will depend on associated gear. I'm glad that you found the Rogue a solid product and not lacking a quality you think it should have. That's good enough for me, I'll just have to determine if Rogue offers the sound that I like.

The Line Magnetic stuff looks great, but it appears the preamp is north of $3,000. That's waaaaay over my budget. Around $1,500 would be what I'd be looking at. A remote is a must, as I play around with volume levels on the fly.

RGA
06-15-2012, 04:16 PM
Audio Space does offer remote on certain models but I bet on more expensive ones. The only thing I can see the Rogue lacks is a triode mode - typically triode sounds better than ultra linear which tends to sound more SS. Depends on what you will like. I think Rogue is a little more geared to tough to drive speakers while the others mentioned are more favourable for Higher sensitive speakers. Kind of like the 88 vs 34 camps.

RGA
06-15-2012, 10:50 PM
YBArcam

Well I got the Mini-2 delivered today. I like Hong Kong they deliver they set-up and right off the bat it sounds quite excellent. The triode ultralinear switch and the feedback switch makes a very noticeable very audible difference. I'll have to listen more to the variations on both sets of speakers across different music to figure which is going to work.

One feature I didn't realize it had was the ability to be a power amp. That is certainly a nice addition for future upgrades so it's something to look for on the Rogue. I prefer it being a dedicated power amp rather than serving as the preamp because generally the preamp stage is the weaker in integrateds and dedicated preamps tend to sound better. It's a big cut above the Trends in the bass.

I am quite surprised by how good it suits both the AX Two and LS3/5a so far. Very pleased by the rendering of the bass especially on Taiko Band's "Monochrome II"

YBArcam
06-16-2012, 07:51 AM
Hi RGA,

Nice, glad you like the new amp. Audio Space seems to be a legit high end brand out of China, that has gained accolades across the globe. Still a little under the radar here in Canada I think. Maybe that's because for that kind of money people can buy product made in other countries, so it doesn't always get the consideration it deserves. I saw an integrated from them (the Galaxy 34 I think it was) and it was built like a tank and weighed as much as one too! Very nicely finished as well.

And it's my fault for not being clear. You looked at integrateds so that's why I asked if you listened to the Cronus. But I wouldn't consider the Cronus. If I go this route I'll buy a dedicated preamp. From Rogue it would be the Perseus. This preamp looks like it meets all my convenience needs: four inputs, a sub out (not sure I want a sub, but just in case), a remote.

Anyways, I don't want to derail your thread here. I will probably start one soon.

tube fan
06-23-2012, 09:48 PM
Well the amp decision has been made. Factoring in that this is a budget system build where every component would be under $2k on average I felt that the Cheap SET amps I was auditioning were not cutting it. I just wasn't getting what I wanted and what I want is a Meishu but they cost beyond reason. One day maybe.

I may still get the 219Ia since I really liked it but a $7,500 amplifier is still not budget.

After auditioning Rogue Audio, Melody, Audio Space, Dared, Line Magnetic, and a few second hand items from CJ, Cary, Jadis It ended up coming down to Line Magnetic and Audio Space. Yeah who would have thought.

And it came down to both of their EL 34 based amplifiers. Sound quality was on par - I'd be happy with either one. The Line Magnetic has a remote control but to counter that feature the Audio Space has a full transformer headphone output.

The Audio Space won out. Interestingly I was there to make sure I wanted to review their speakers but their amps won me over. The speaker has a heads up is the best of these LS3/5a models I've heard - they really impressed me and I look forward to pitting them against the AX Two. Finally the AX Two has serious competition. They also make a cheaper version of the LS3/5a called the Gini but it sounded rather poor - it was a lot cheaper though but the build seems cheap and the slapped together. I heard Harbeth's version which was better but it had a lilt in the upper midrange treble that was not bad but I dunno just something not quite nice sounding - the regular Harbeth models sound better.

I tried the Kt 88s but despite being a little pricier I preferred the slightly warmer presentation here from the EL 34.

Switching between ultra-linear and triode
Switching between high and low negative feedback
Switching between direct and line input
Headphone jack
tube circuitry with choke coil
Point to point soldering

Output Power: 2 x 16W (Triode - Class AB Push-Pull)
2 x 32W (Ultralinear- Class AB Push-Pull)
Output Impedance : 4, 8 ohm
Input : Single-ended RCA x 3
Vacuum Tubes: 1 x 6N9P (6SL7 or ECC35)
2 x 6N8P (6SN7 or ECC32)
4 x EL34 (6CA7)
Dimensions (W x H x D): 255 x 176 x 316 mm

I have not really liked any of the EL 34 based amps I have heard or any 3/5 speakers. To my ears, the EL 34s are too slow and lack true PRAT. Ditto for the 3/5s. Perhaps in an extremely small room.

RGA
06-24-2012, 03:08 AM
Well there are exceptions to every rule. The 3/5a I can't really compare to other versions since I've not heard the originals - this model is fast and apparently has more bass than any other version of the design - I can't say because the only other one I really spent time with was Grant Fidelity and then not long - but PRAT isn't the problem - they are fast and clean and not bright.

EL 34 I do see where you're coming from - other ones I've tried have sound a little slow and sluggish - which isn't the case here. It leans to the KT88 side of the spectrum but not too much that it's overly bright.

The 3/5a was designed for small studios although I found this speaker to work well about 15 feet apart in a big room - the subs make a big deal. I have tried the speaker without the sub and am less enthusiastic on them. The subs make them "significantly" better - and i mean significantly better. But there is some break in time left so we'll see.

tube fan
06-24-2012, 10:03 AM
Well there are exceptions to every rule. The 3/5a I can't really compare to other versions since I've not heard the originals - this model is fast and apparently has more bass than any other version of the design - I can't say because the only other one I really spent time with was Grant Fidelity and then not long - but PRAT isn't the problem - they are fast and clean and not bright.

EL 34 I do see where you're coming from - other ones I've tried have sound a little slow and sluggish - which isn't the case here. It leans to the KT88 side of the spectrum but not too much that it's overly bright.

The 3/5a was designed for small studios although I found this speaker to work well about 15 feet apart in a big room - the subs make a big deal. I have tried the speaker without the sub and am less enthusiastic on them. The subs make them "significantly" better - and i mean significantly better. But there is some break in time left so we'll see.
Why not just get an Audio Note J? Don't need a sub, they supply more detail and WAY more jump factor? Plus, they are 10dB + more efficient. IMO, the 3/5 simply will not work with a low powered tube amp (if you value dynamics), and certainly will not work with a SET amp. BTW, while SET amps are low power, their realistic sound is due to other factors. Check out Robert Harley's editorial on the magic of SET sound. At the CAS 2010 and 2011 three of my four favorite rooms were using SET amps. Driving the Sonist, Audio Note, and Teresonic speakers those SET amps produced a sound extremely close to the real thing, especially in timbre, inner detail, and effortless presentation. Almost all other systems, even $400,000 + ones, sounded etched and strained. Constipated in fact!

RGA
06-24-2012, 05:54 PM
I am reviewing the LS3/5a - not planning to buy it. As a reviewer I have to factor in several things not just what I would buy. The combined price of the LS3/5a and both subs (that serve as Stands is about $2,000 less than the AN J with stands.

The AN J sounds better and has more bass depth and can play a LOT louder. The LS3/5a handles 30 watts and is an 83db sensitive speaker - so it tops out at around 94db.

That said it offers other factors that I will get into in my review.

There is no question that SET is king in my book, and HE speakers and some other types. But budget is a factor for readers.

The impressive thing about the Audio Space amps is bang for dollar. They have impressive macro dynamics speed and openness in the treble that is absolutely wondrous on brass instruments and very good transient/decay behavior. What it doesn't have that the AN's have is the depth and richness on tonality and overtones or the nuance - but then again these are stock tubes with stock caps. And AN's SE amps start at double the price with no headphone output. So to be fair here there is only so much you can do at a given budget - but IMO it mops the floor with stuff I've heard from Jolida, ASL, or ARC and several other amplifiers that cost more - and that's why it's here - and it better my OTO on certain aspects (albeit not overall). I would like to hear comparably prices AS amplifiers as they make 300B Sets and 2a3 and interesting 300B push pull amps. The advantage of the Audio Space is that it can be used as a power amp only and I can run a SET preamp - possibly an Audio Note M6 with phono if I can find a used one.

I will likely ship my AN J/SPe to myself as well as my OTO which apparently is a dual primary transformer so it takes a couple of minutes with a soldering iron to convert it to 220v.

The turntable unfortunately is a no-go because the cycles need to be changed and frequency converters cost in the thousands - there is a VPI device but those too are pricey.

I may sell it and put the money to a second hand table in HK.

tube fan
06-24-2012, 09:27 PM
I am reviewing the LS3/5a - not planning to buy it. As a reviewer I have to factor in several things not just what I would buy. The combined price of the LS3/5a and both subs (that serve as Stands is about $2,000 less than the AN J with stands.

The AN J sounds better and has more bass depth and can play a LOT louder. The LS3/5a handles 30 watts and is an 83db sensitive speaker - so it tops out at around 94db.

That said it offers other factors that I will get into in my review.

There is no question that SET is king in my book, and HE speakers and some other types. But budget is a factor for readers.

The impressive thing about the Audio Space amps is bang for dollar. They have impressive macro dynamics speed and openness in the treble that is absolutely wondrous on brass instruments and very good transient/decay behavior. What it doesn't have that the AN's have is the depth and richness on tonality and overtones or the nuance - but then again these are stock tubes with stock caps. And AN's SE amps start at double the price with no headphone output. So to be fair here there is only so much you can do at a given budget - but IMO it mops the floor with stuff I've heard from Jolida, ASL, or ARC and several other amplifiers that cost more - and that's why it's here - and it better my OTO on certain aspects (albeit not overall). I would like to hear comparably prices AS amplifiers as they make 300B Sets and 2a3 and interesting 300B push pull amps. The advantage of the Audio Space is that it can be used as a power amp only and I can run a SET preamp - possibly an Audio Note M6 with phono if I can find a used one.

I will likely ship my AN J/SPe to myself as well as my OTO which apparently is a dual primary transformer so it takes a couple of minutes with a soldering iron to convert it to 220v.

The turntable unfortunately is a no-go because the cycles need to be changed and frequency converters cost in the thousands - there is a VPI device but those too are pricey.

I may sell it and put the money to a second hand table in HK.
Well my decades old Audio Research D-70 amp, Mark II is SPECTACULAR on brass, macro and micro dynamics, and simply KILLS any EL 34 amp on the correct attack of notes. Yes, EL 34s get the decay of notes mostly correct, but they are slow and soft, missing correct attack. Listen to a guitar live. Not only do the notes have decay, they also have stunning attack. Any set of audio components that fails to reproduce the leading edge of notes, as well as the decay of notes, is, in a word, boring. Combine that kind of amp with the typical British sound of the 3/5 speakers, which are similarly rich and slow (compared to the best amps and speakers), and you will certainly get a pleasant, but boring presentation. Yes, of course, IMO. Then is the question of your review. 95%+ of "reviews" are mainly positive. IMO, if a reviewer gives honest negative analysis of components, he, or she, will soon be an ex-reviewer.

RGA
06-25-2012, 02:28 AM
Most reviewers provide the pros and cons of any product. I have heard several ARC amps and I'm sorry to say I find all of them to be overpriced over-hyped underperforming pieces - I have heard them for 20 years and all of them in any system have left me perplexed and roundly unimpressed.

Amplifiers are 9/10 the transformer which is why you don't read Audio Note articles on tube selection.

I have heard EL 34 amps a lot over the years and some sound slow and bloomy and sluggish and some have sounded bright as hell lacked warmth and you'd have a tough time telling them from a SS Bryston. It is far too simplistic to say all EL 34 amps sound one way because they don't at all sound even remotely the same.

I said this 10 years ago comparing directly the Jolida 302B vs the ASL AQ 1003DT. You could not get a different sounding pair of amplifiers - both used the same tubes and they look the same with around the same power. The 302B sounds warm has decay but sluggish transients which are round soft. The ASL was excellent on transients but not decay didn't have the warmth and sounded more analytical. They both do some things right but not enough for me to buy them. Soundhounds no longer carries either brand(or ARC). Audio Note nevertheless remains.

As for positive reviews well we review things we like - which is why I auditioned the speaker for 2 hours to be sure before I brought them in. I felt that the speaker quite easily competes and beats most standmount designs under $2k if one is willing to put up with their limitations. Adding the sub is a game changer for them IMO but it raises the price to around $3k which I then had to compare to "new" floorstanders for the same money.

My job is to try and state what I hear and what I think the pros and cons are and comparing to other designs. I have no lore factor at play because I didn't grow up with them. I hate the Quad 63 because I heard it and it sounds like a pile of poo - and yet it's viewed as a classic. I am not swayed by classic titles. New Quads sound far far better than old quads because nostalgia isn't an overriding influence for me. I'm not 65 where when I was 20 I salivated over owning a Quad and 40 years later when I have lots of money I buy that 40 year old speaker and claim it's the best and nothing I have heard since betters it and blah blah blah. Most reviews of the LS3/5a compares it 13 other versions of the same speaker. I'll be comparing it to other small monitors designed for small rooms.

And I would make the point that current tube companies are using vastly better parts than they did even 20 years ago. Even Audio Note is making an EL34 based amplifier in PP because with good parts and good transformers there is something to them that sure isn't there with the Dynaco ST70 - an amplifier that is considered a classic that I found to be comically terrible. Audio Note Kits - L6 Series Power Amplifier - EL34 Edition (http://www.audionotekits.com/l6_el34_pp.html)

The other reality is that most people don't own SET friendly loudspeakers. 3 to 10 watts isn't enough. Enter PP amps that is basically EL34 and KT88 - I prefer the former for sound and they're also less expensive so it's a win-win. KT 88s have tended to bully the speakers I like. They're far better suited for difficult to drive speakers and in fact sounded better than ASi EL34 based amp on the LS3/5a speaker. I liked the sound of the KT 88 as I did with Grant Fidelity Rita but it has a leaner presentation to my ear and sounds "brighter" and yes more tactile on transients. The Mini-2 I felt was the best of both worlds from their KT88 and their lower EL34 as it has a different circuit design. The ultralinear mode with the switch set to more feedback emulates the KT88 very nicely. Running it in Triode mode with min feedback sounds warmer and more polite and inviting.

Poultrygeist
06-25-2012, 02:29 AM
I agree RGA. SETs have certainly spoiled me.

tube fan
06-25-2012, 05:46 AM
Most reviewers provide the pros and cons of any product. I have heard several ARC amps and I'm sorry to say I find all of them to be overpriced over-hyped underperforming pieces - I have heard them for 20 years and all of them in any system have left me perplexed and roundly unimpressed.

Amplifiers are 9/10 the transformer which is why you don't read Audio Note articles on tube selection.

I have heard EL 34 amps a lot over the years and some sound slow and bloomy and sluggish and some have sounded bright as hell lacked warmth and you'd have a tough time telling them from a SS Bryston. It is far too simplistic to say all EL 34 amps sound one way because they don't at all sound even remotely the same.

I said this 10 years ago comparing directly the Jolida 302B vs the ASL AQ 1003DT. You could not get a different sounding pair of amplifiers - both used the same tubes and they look the same with around the same power. The 302B sounds warm has decay but sluggish transients which are round soft. The ASL was excellent on transients but not decay didn't have the warmth and sounded more analytical. They both do some things right but not enough for me to buy them. Soundhounds no longer carries either brand(or ARC). Audio Note nevertheless remains.

As for positive reviews well we review things we like - which is why I auditioned the speaker for 2 hours to be sure before I brought them in. I felt that the speaker quite easily competes and beats most standmount designs under $2k if one is willing to put up with their limitations. Adding the sub is a game changer for them IMO but it raises the price to around $3k which I then had to compare to "new" floorstanders for the same money.

My job is to try and state what I hear and what I think the pros and cons are and comparing to other designs. I have no lore factor at play because I didn't grow up with them. I hate the Quad 63 because I heard it and it sounds like a pile of poo - and yet it's viewed as a classic. I am not swayed by classic titles. New Quads sound far far better than old quads because nostalgia isn't an overriding influence for me. I'm not 65 where when I was 20 I salivated over owning a Quad and 40 years later when I have lots of money I buy that 40 year old speaker and claim it's the best and nothing I have heard since betters it and blah blah blah. Most reviews of the LS3/5a compares it 13 other versions of the same speaker. I'll be comparing it to other small monitors designed for small rooms.

And I would make the point that current tube companies are using vastly better parts than they did even 20 years ago. Even Audio Note is making an EL34 based amplifier in PP because with good parts and good transformers there is something to them that sure isn't there with the Dynaco ST70 - an amplifier that is considered a classic that I found to be comically terrible. Audio Note Kits - L6 Series Power Amplifier - EL34 Edition (http://www.audionotekits.com/l6_el34_pp.html)

The other reality is that most people don't own SET friendly loudspeakers. 3 to 10 watts isn't enough. Enter PP amps that is basically EL34 and KT88 - I prefer the former for sound and they're also less expensive so it's a win-win. KT 88s have tended to bully the speakers I like. They're far better suited for difficult to drive speakers and in fact sounded better than ASi EL34 based amp on the LS3/5a speaker. I liked the sound of the KT 88 as I did with Grant Fidelity Rita but it has a leaner presentation to my ear and sounds "brighter" and yes more tactile on transients. The Mini-2 I felt was the best of both worlds from their KT88 and their lower EL34 as it has a different circuit design. The ultralinear mode with the switch set to more feedback emulates the KT88 very nicely. Running it in Triode mode with min feedback sounds warmer and more polite and inviting.

Well, you are in the "sounds good" audio camp, so it's really impossible to argue with anyone from that school. Of course, no one from that camp can really argue with anyone else either! However, if we are talking about the absolute sound (live acoustic music), then the 34 based amps (yes, of course, all those I have heard), all sound slow and fat compared to live music (yes, especially in the leading edge of notes or in producing transients that are tactile). The combination of a 34 amp and a 3/5 speaker will sound pleasant, easy to listen to, but boring. And, of course, that combination will have virtually NO jump factor or dynamics! Just listen to the fantastic Hugh Masekela vinyl record "hope". On the "Coal Train" cut, the sound is just scary: totally uncompressed. the sound just keeps getting louder and louder (without ANY distortion). Few systems can reproduce the dynamics of this record, and no 34 amp I have heard comes even remotely close. BTW, Jack Roberts has done a good job on the Audio Space 3/5 in his review over at Drago.

RGA
06-25-2012, 05:24 PM
I love how YOU think you're the arbiter of "The Absolute Sound" and that whatever you like is the final truth on what IS and is NOT accurate. I've seen mountains smaller than your ego. And coming from me that is saying something.

If you think ARC is accurate to the live event then I can't help you. Newsflash - they ain't. ARC can't even decide is tubes are better than SS - they sell both because they have zero interest in the absolutes and only care about selling boxes. If they believed in tube amps that's all they'd sell. Like McIntosh it's only about the money for them.

SET amplifiers are BY FAR the most truthful accurate amplifiers. They're the most linear true amplifying devices and the reason they're liked is they sound more accurate and natural to live acoustic instruments. That is why people like them - not because they sound pleasant. Live natural and right does tend to sound pleasant though.

All other non Single Ended topologies or that use on-off switching chips are less accurate. Discussions over distortion is idiotic since that distortion ONLY EVER exists when the amp is pushed. HE speakers mean that that never happens.

As a poster on AA noted - the best amps in his view

1) The amp must be Class A or high bias AB (around 15-20 watts A)
2) The amp must have little to no negative feedback or at least no global feedback
3) The amp must have a large, low impedance power supply
4) If the amp is tube output it must have LARGE output transformers that do not easily saturate, or be an OTL without much negative feedback
5) It should be simple in design, having only 2 or 3 total stages from input to output.
My criteria for a POTENTIALLY good sounding amp - morricab - Amp/Preamp Asylum (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/17/175926.html)

The actual tube types are slight variations used to do a job for the type of transformer.

I think you need to audition a quality current EL34 based amplifier because it is apparent you have not.

PS I agree with poultry and as I noted before I am not claiming EL34 Audio Space to be the absolute sound - but it sure as hell ain't some KT 88 from ARC I can tell you that. Both are inaccurate in different ways.

It's a SET - so if you are interested in the "Absolute Sound" most accurate to the LIVE event then you need to dump your PP KT 88 amp and get the best. The best will be a SET whether a low powered one with HE speakers or a high powered one for tough to drive speakers.

tube fan
06-26-2012, 11:45 AM
I love how YOU think you're the arbiter of "The Absolute Sound" and that whatever you like is the final truth on what IS and is NOT accurate. I've seen mountains smaller than your ego. And coming from me that is saying something.

If you think ARC is accurate to the live event then I can't help you. Newsflash - they ain't. ARC can't even decide is tubes are better than SS - they sell both because they have zero interest in the absolutes and only care about selling boxes. If they believed in tube amps that's all they'd sell. Like McIntosh it's only about the money for them.

SET amplifiers are BY FAR the most truthful accurate amplifiers. They're the most linear true amplifying devices and the reason they're liked is they sound more accurate and natural to live acoustic instruments. That is why people like them - not because they sound pleasant. Live natural and right does tend to sound pleasant though.

All other non Single Ended topologies or that use on-off switching chips are less accurate. Discussions over distortion is idiotic since that distortion ONLY EVER exists when the amp is pushed. HE speakers mean that that never happens.

As a poster on AA noted - the best amps in his view

1) The amp must be Class A or high bias AB (around 15-20 watts A)
2) The amp must have little to no negative feedback or at least no global feedback
3) The amp must have a large, low impedance power supply
4) If the amp is tube output it must have LARGE output transformers that do not easily saturate, or be an OTL without much negative feedback
5) It should be simple in design, having only 2 or 3 total stages from input to output.
My criteria for a POTENTIALLY good sounding amp - morricab - Amp/Preamp Asylum (http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/amp/messages/17/175926.html)

The actual tube types are slight variations used to do a job for the type of transformer.

I think you need to audition a quality current EL34 based amplifier because it is apparent you have not.

PS I agree with poultry and as I noted before I am not claiming EL34 Audio Space to be the absolute sound - but it sure as hell ain't some KT 88 from ARC I can tell you that. Both are inaccurate in different ways.

It's a SET - so if you are interested in the "Absolute Sound" most accurate to the LIVE event then you need to dump your PP KT 88 amp and get the best. The best will be a SET whether a low powered one with HE speakers or a high powered one for tough to drive speakers.

I have done blind listening tests, comparing my Audio Research D70 with several 34 based tubes, all current units. In all cases, both I and the other listeners preferred the D70. That preference was determined by listening, not by measurements. BTW, many audio reviewers own Audio Research preamps and amps and use them as references. Here is a quote from Dick Olsher (who has reviewed many 34 based amps) in his review of the current Conrad-Johnson L125 M SE power amp and ET 5 preamp: "Well, tube warmth is not a given, and certainly not when it comes to the ET5. Its sound was neither warm nor fuzzy like that of vintage tube preamps. Its intrinsic character could never be described as lush or romantic. Instead, its delivery was solid-state-like in the sense of emphasizing harmonic accuracy. Of course, should you desire a bit of romance, all you need to do is team it up with the right power amp. My latest, used acquisition, an Audio Research D70 Mk II, did the trick. The result was a glorious midrange with rich organic textures and sufficient residual detail to satisfy any music lover." In JA's current review of the$46,000 + Lansche Audio 5.1 speakers, he admits that, with all the ss amps he had on hand, "the Lansches sounded clean, detailed, and transparent, but the system didn't properly jell until I drove them with the tubed Audio Research amplifier. Only then could I properly appreciate the magical qualities of that 'singing flame' tweeter." JA said much the same thing when reviewing the $80,000 Acapella speaker: they only sounded realistic when driven by Audio Research tubes (here JA had both ss and several tube units for comparison). RGA, you have claimed, COUNTLESS times, that a speaker must be able to play all types of music in order to be highly valued. COUNTLESS times! And, yet, here you are defending a speaker (and amp) that CANNOT play house, trance, pop, or rock at live levels!!! And, NO they won't be able to play classical music at live levels either (where it counts, in the climaxes).

And, NO, I don't think SET amps are perfect: they are too slow on transients, too prominent in the mid-bass, and too rolled off in the treble. Yes, they have true coherency (which no non-class A amp has). Thus, IMO, the best SET amps are great, IN SPITE OF their limitations in reproduction of leading edges of notes, in bass, and in extended treble. All the 34 amps I have heard (and, yes, I have heard an Audio Space amp at the 2011 CAS with their 3/5 speaker) are too slow, lacking in bass control, and rolled off in high frequencies, and certainly, compressed on popular music and louder jazz and classical. Yes, compared to live music OR to my vintage Audio Research tube units. The 34 based amps have the flaws of SET amps, WITHOUT their stunning coherency!

RGA
06-26-2012, 06:35 PM
Audio Research beating an expensive SS amp or American reviewers loving American products isn't of interest to me. Acapella uses Einstein Amps which are significantly better better than any ARC - that is why they use them and they don't use ARC.

I have never said it must play at live levels - I have said it must sound lifelike and like live instruments. I see no reason to play at ear damaging levels - it's not at all necessary. More on this below.

I am not exactly sure where you come from - you like Magnepan 1.7 and Teresonic which are COMPLETE AND UTTER jokes on house trance rock and neither play well loud (and nowhere near live levels) - though Maggie will play louder than a stat in general. The Ingenium which you like (as do I) has serious limitations here and costs $14,000 but if an $1800 standmount has the same limitation it is unforgivable. WTF? The 1.7 has no dynamics, pathetic "impact" bass response and lacks 3 dimensions and yes it has strengths but your so called absolutes seem to be a very big sliding scale and you choose to overlook the weaknesses wherever it so suits you.

You can't hold the LS3/5a and AS integrated up to the best $100k systems for the ability to play loud with bass at "live" levels and then turn around and say other similar priced speakers mated to Bryston SS that ALSO don't remotely compete with those $100k systems suddenly get a pass from the harsh criticism.

Play the evil nine at 95db on the Maggies(any Maggie regardless of price) and laugh. It's a complete joke. It's a complete joke on the LS3/5a too but at least with the subs in a small room it's competent. Can't say that for the Ingenium which struggles with Sarah McLachlan and Delerium's "Silence" badly compressing at moderately high volumes and costs 5 times the price. Sure the Ingenium does other things better but it's not better everywhere. And those speakers can't do the Evil Nine and ALSO won't fit in a small room.

Sure I want a system to play everything well but compromises MUST be made at lower end of the price spectrum or based on the music one listens to (and room size). No one is buying an LS3/5a or Magnepan 1.7 or Quad, or Totem Model One if their music taste is House and Trance.

The reality - you know the real world, is that people have different room sizes where sorry but 20.1s and massive 18 foot high 10 feet wide horns won't fit. This is why you see makers making different sized speakers. If you have a big room you buy a Soundlab U1 if you have a small room you get a Maggie MMG - you work with the limitations you have.

As for the KT 88 and EL34 I auditioned the Audio Space EL 34 and KT 88s (two models of each). I auditioned a Melody KT88 and EL34 and Line Magnetic's EL 34 and KT88 on four different loudspeakers.

I am not going to sit here and say the EL 34 is better - I will say that the EL 34 amps in each and every case allowed me to sit back in the chair and listen to music rather than sit forward in the chair listening to "sound." Ultimately they were more enjoyable to listen to which is also why I kept my EL84 based OTO over the KT-88 GF Rita.

SETs have issues with frequency response behavior related to impedance matching of loudspeakers so yes they exhibit bass and treble roll-off when partnered with inefficient loudspeakers. Some SETs exhibit that sound regardless.

Once again I am not saying the EL34 is better - I preferred it with the music I brought to each of those auditions. With the Zu audio speakers the KT 88s sounded too bright - with the ATC 150 the KT 88 sounded leaner and had more air and bigger stereo spread - it sounded more hi-fi - the EL34 was smaller but had better foundation and bass. With that speaker it was a toss-up. On the LS 3/5a same kind of deal. One EL 34 was far too dark - their ASi model - the Mini-2 uses a different circuit and a better driver tube.

Philip Holmes noted that amplifiers using 12AX7 tubes as the preamp stage tend to sound worse than any other kind - and I think based on limited experience he is correct - the input tube is more important and he notes that in every case the 12AX7 is best avoided.

The stupid thing about this entire argument is synergy. The fact is amplifiers, including solid state amplifiers, work better with different kinds of speakers. SETS need simple easy to drive speakers (single driver or two ways at most). Audio Note speakers don't like high power high damping factor SS amplifiers. They like SETs or SE amps. EL34 for PP is clearly more suitable for their speakers than KT 88 which is why Audio Note makes an EL 34 amp and doesn't make a KT88.

It's not that the KT 88 based amps are bad - but I get the sense that they are what I refer to as "control freak" amplifiers. If you have a speaker using any sort of long throw or high excursion woofer then you need far better control of the woofer cone which requires more power and drive of a KT 88 over the likes of the softer lower powered EL84 and 34 types. So If I owned a Wilson or big PMC, B&W Paradigm etc then I would likely opt for the GF Rita or Audio Space Galaxy 88 or Line Magnetic's award winning 216ia. But the KT 88 Rita bullies AN speakers and makes them sound thinner and compressed because they "control" the drivers too much and they lose their magic.

Reviews:
I went into reviewing because I felt most of the major publications were sending people down the wrong path with stuff that I felt was overpriced under-performing junk. Looking over Stereophile's recommended lists and and TAS award winners frankly makes me sick.

tube fan
06-27-2012, 11:36 AM
Audio Research beating an expensive SS amp or American reviewers loving American products isn't of interest to me. Acapella uses Einstein Amps which are significantly better better than any ARC - that is why they use them and they don't use ARC.

I have never said it must play at live levels - I have said it must sound lifelike and like live instruments. I see no reason to play at ear damaging levels - it's not at all necessary. More on this below.

I am not exactly sure where you come from - you like Magnepan 1.7 and Teresonic which are COMPLETE AND UTTER jokes on house trance rock and neither play well loud (and nowhere near live levels) - though Maggie will play louder than a stat in general. The Ingenium which you like (as do I) has serious limitations here and costs $14,000 but if an $1800 standmount has the same limitation it is unforgivable. WTF? The 1.7 has no dynamics, pathetic "impact" bass response and lacks 3 dimensions and yes it has strengths but your so called absolutes seem to be a very big sliding scale and you choose to overlook the weaknesses wherever it so suits you.

You can't hold the LS3/5a and AS integrated up to the best $100k systems for the ability to play loud with bass at "live" levels and then turn around and say other similar priced speakers mated to Bryston SS that ALSO don't remotely compete with those $100k systems suddenly get a pass from the harsh criticism.

Play the evil nine at 95db on the Maggies(any Maggie regardless of price) and laugh. It's a complete joke. It's a complete joke on the LS3/5a too but at least with the subs in a small room it's competent. Can't say that for the Ingenium which struggles with Sarah McLachlan and Delerium's "Silence" badly compressing at moderately high volumes and costs 5 times the price. Sure the Ingenium does other things better but it's not better everywhere. And those speakers can't do the Evil Nine and ALSO won't fit in a small room.

Sure I want a system to play everything well but compromises MUST be made at lower end of the price spectrum or based on the music one listens to (and room size). No one is buying an LS3/5a or Magnepan 1.7 or Quad, or Totem Model One if their music taste is House and Trance.

The reality - you know the real world, is that people have different room sizes where sorry but 20.1s and massive 18 foot high 10 feet wide horns won't fit. This is why you see makers making different sized speakers. If you have a big room you buy a Soundlab U1 if you have a small room you get a Maggie MMG - you work with the limitations you have.

As for the KT 88 and EL34 I auditioned the Audio Space EL 34 and KT 88s (two models of each). I auditioned a Melody KT88 and EL34 and Line Magnetic's EL 34 and KT88 on four different loudspeakers.

I am not going to sit here and say the EL 34 is better - I will say that the EL 34 amps in each and every case allowed me to sit back in the chair and listen to music rather than sit forward in the chair listening to "sound." Ultimately they were more enjoyable to listen to which is also why I kept my EL84 based OTO over the KT-88 GF Rita.

SETs have issues with frequency response behavior related to impedance matching of loudspeakers so yes they exhibit bass and treble roll-off when partnered with inefficient loudspeakers. Some SETs exhibit that sound regardless.

Once again I am not saying the EL34 is better - I preferred it with the music I brought to each of those auditions. With the Zu audio speakers the KT 88s sounded too bright - with the ATC 150 the KT 88 sounded leaner and had more air and bigger stereo spread - it sounded more hi-fi - the EL34 was smaller but had better foundation and bass. With that speaker it was a toss-up. On the LS 3/5a same kind of deal. One EL 34 was far too dark - their ASi model - the Mini-2 uses a different circuit and a better driver tube.

Philip Holmes noted that amplifiers using 12AX7 tubes as the preamp stage tend to sound worse than any other kind - and I think based on limited experience he is correct - the input tube is more important and he notes that in every case the 12AX7 is best avoided.

The stupid thing about this entire argument is synergy. The fact is amplifiers, including solid state amplifiers, work better with different kinds of speakers. SETS need simple easy to drive speakers (single driver or two ways at most). Audio Note speakers don't like high power high damping factor SS amplifiers. They like SETs or SE amps. EL34 for PP is clearly more suitable for their speakers than KT 88 which is why Audio Note makes an EL 34 amp and doesn't make a KT88.

It's not that the KT 88 based amps are bad - but I get the sense that they are what I refer to as "control freak" amplifiers. If you have a speaker using any sort of long throw or high excursion woofer then you need far better control of the woofer cone which requires more power and drive of a KT 88 over the likes of the softer lower powered EL84 and 34 types. So If I owned a Wilson or big PMC, B&W Paradigm etc then I would likely opt for the GF Rita or Audio Space Galaxy 88 or Line Magnetic's award winning 216ia. But the KT 88 Rita bullies AN speakers and makes them sound thinner and compressed because they "control" the drivers too much and they lose their magic.

Reviews:
I went into reviewing because I felt most of the major publications were sending people down the wrong path with stuff that I felt was overpriced under-performing junk. Looking over Stereophile's recommended lists and and TAS award winners frankly makes me sick.

The AS 3/5 is simply HORRIBLY inefficient (what? about 82 db!!!), and will not come close to suggesting the dynamics of live music, be that pop, house, jazz, or classical. A similarly priced Sonist or Usher or Gallo speaker WILL come close to the dynamics of live music. At the 2011 CAS I heard an inexpensive Usher speaker reproduce the spectacular Masekela "Coal Train" cut with absolutely NO compression! NONE! The Sonist room had no tt, but I suspect that they too would be able to reveal the dynamics on the "Coal Train" track. The Gallo will reproduce correct dynamics, but demand more power than the Usher or Sonist speakers. My favorite room at the 2011 CAS was the Sonist, and it was certainly one of the least costly (they were using an under $1,000 SET amp and analogue tapes!!!). The AS 3/5 system was about my 15th favorite room. Better than the HORRIBLY expensive MBL or Wilson rooms, but that's faint praise. BTW, the MBL room was, BY FAR, the worst I have ever heard, either at an audio show, or at a store, or even in someone's home. EVERYTHING in the MBL was strident, harsh, compressed, and two-dimensional! The MBL approach (thousand watt ss amps and inefficient speakers) is the unfortunate direction that too much of today's "high end" has taken. The horrible MBL system must have cost upwards of $500,000!!! The AS 3/5 sounded pleasant, soft, and smooth. No fatigue, but no real dynamics. The Usher and Sonist speakers show you that there is no need to compromise, even in the $2,000 to $3,000 price range. IMO, the Audio Note Js are surely worth the extra money versus the AS 3/5 s with a sub. Not that much a difference in price. A HUGE difference in sound! Ditto for the Usher and Sonist speakers which can be used with low power SET amps. BTW, the Audio Note J and E speakers sound fantastic driven by my low power Audio Research D70 tube amp (new caps and tubes).

RGA
06-27-2012, 04:47 PM
Tube Fan

We probably agree 90% of the time which in audio is miraculous. Even if you like one speaker over what I like best generally what you liked best is in my top 2-3. For instance Sonist was one of my favorites at CES 2010, MBL sounded off.

But MBL is an extremely difficult speaker to set-up. I am the one who always says - don't blame the room for poor sound because they should work in most any room - but MBL is an exception because of the omni-directional design which will take more effort than most to get right. They can actually sound very good - although yes I think they'd be better if they used someone else's amplifiers.

The LS3/5a is a very easy to drive loudspeaker. Yes it has a low sensitivity of 82.5db but they operate mostly at 11ohms and don't dip under 7 ohms(and they used to make 16ohm version). They're very gentle to SET amplifiers. In fact the load behavior is more important than sensitivity - a 95db sensitive speaker that drops to under 4ohms (like the AN E) is in some ways more difficult to drive and requires a much beefier tube amplifier.

The LS3/5a with their two dedicated subwoofers essentially makes them a 3 way floorstander with significant bass response and veryt acceptable loudness capabilities. Remember they're strictly designed for small living rooms/bedrooms/small studios. The midrange and treble are first rate and based on what I heard at CES integrate considerably better than the vast majority. The sub does a superb job of seamlessly integrating with the standmount - and apparently there is a better method whereby you place the LS3/5a on it's own stand and have the subwoofer portions in front or behind the speaker. Regardless bass depth is very well rendered and that is likely because it uses the same driver - can't get anymore integrated than that. In fact it's so good that I want to suggest a few other speaker makers look into a similar approach to bass columns.

This approach is better than a floorstander sharing the same cabinet because you can move the subwoofer columns around - a floorstander you can't.

I would not give up on the AS LS3/5a just yet. Try them in a smaller room and the subs are a must. Jack was somewhat waffling on the speakers as standmounts because there is a lot of competition and he has a pretty large room.

Like I said before there are other speakers I prefer but taking the room size into account and their easy impedance characteristics, size and vocal abilities they're better than most.

tube fan
06-28-2012, 08:50 AM
If I am as impressed at the 2012 CAS by SET amps as I was at the 2010 and 2011, an SET amp will be my next purchase. I suspect that, once the signal is divided in non-SET amps, all attempts to correctly put that signal back are as doomed as digital is in trying to put the original analogue signal back together. So far, I have been most impressed with the Jinro, but the price is probably too steep for me. There are a few SET amps that cost under half of what the mighty Jinro costs. BTW, the Audio Note Es, driven by the Jinro, were one of the best systems I have ever heard. They cost a cool $24,000. I love my Audio Research D70, especially compared to ss and other non-SET tube amps, but the SET amps I have heard have a direct purity that matches live music.

RGA
07-19-2012, 11:41 AM
It is nice to return home to Canada to listen to the big system to remind myself why I spent the extra cash back in the day. I love the little system but turn on the old OTO after around 11 months and put in the brilliantly recorded test disc (which has nice music not just a test disc like the TAS and ISO-Mike stuff) and turn the dial and get the massive landscape and decay and a much more complete sense of everything.

I had contemplated selling my OTO but after the first notes I think I'll have them change it to 220V and ship it to myself. The J's are going nowhere. I could sell them for what I paid for them 6 years ago (same for the OTO). But the replacements are much more expensive so I don't really get anywhere. I know why the OTO/J/Spe is one of their biggest selling combinations. The J lives for acoustic classical - cello was OMG - funny how one forgets after 10 months what they had. I saw a second hand pair of AN E's in Hong Kong but they wanted $3,000US for them. When I go back I may do it. I can use the AX twos as rears (make it fit somehow) and go that route for home theater than the orb balls. Then I won't need a sub since the E goes lower than any cheap sub. The center channel is the issue.

I have put my TT2/arm3/IQ3 up for consignment at Soundhounds at a bit of a cut rate ($3k) in the hopes of selling it within a month. I hate doing it but there was too much involved in changing it over to the HK frequency as they'd have to re cut the thing to move the motor and pulleys. They felt it would be expensive and that the VPI device doesn't do a good enough job on their tables.

tube fan
07-20-2012, 08:04 PM
It is nice to return home to Canada to listen to the big system to remind myself why I spent the extra cash back in the day. I love the little system but turn on the old OTO after around 11 months and put in the brilliantly recorded test disc (which has nice music not just a test disc like the TAS and ISO-Mike stuff) and turn the dial and get the massive landscape and decay and a much more complete sense of everything.

I had contemplated selling my OTO but after the first notes I think I'll have them change it to 220V and ship it to myself. The J's are going nowhere. I could sell them for what I paid for them 6 years ago (same for the OTO). But the replacements are much more expensive so I don't really get anywhere. I know why the OTO/J/Spe is one of their biggest selling combinations. The J lives for acoustic classical - cello was OMG - funny how one forgets after 10 months what they had. I saw a second hand pair of AN E's in Hong Kong but they wanted $3,000US for them. When I go back I may do it. I can use the AX twos as rears (make it fit somehow) and go that route for home theater than the orb balls. Then I won't need a sub since the E goes lower than any cheap sub. The center channel is the issue.

I have put my TT2/arm3/IQ3 up for consignment at Soundhounds at a bit of a cut rate ($3k) in the hopes of selling it within a month. I hate doing it but there was too much involved in changing it over to the HK frequency as they'd have to re cut the thing to move the motor and pulleys. They felt it would be expensive and that the VPI device doesn't do a good enough job on their tables.

In a small room, I actually prefer the ANJs to the ANEs. ANEs for $3,000 are a STEAL!!! If I am correct, high efficient, high impedance speakers are the way to go, because SET amps are MANDATORY if you want an effortless, musical, detailed, dynamic sound. If you go to the 2012 CAS, check out the deHavilland SET amps.

tube fan
07-23-2012, 07:36 AM
I see that Line Magnetic is appearing at audio shows with a LM-2101 SET integrated driving a new De Vore Orangtang wide baffle, two way speaker. I hope that combination is at the 2012 CAS.

RGA
07-23-2012, 05:05 PM
Yes this amp I have my eye on as it is considerably more affordable than the Meishu. I don't know who is attending outside the small list posted at the CAS page. There is no phono stage with LM amps though.