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frenchmon
03-29-2012, 03:59 AM
...Made in China, I really dont think you really understand what really comes out of China, and who builds there. I was not shocked at all to discover a very well respected TT in the world of audiophilia is actually made in China byOpera...the same company who makes the well repected loud speaker. You want to know what other well repected table is made in China?

Take a look, I wont even have to say the name, because those who are into TT's will know what table this is right off the bat.

http://www.charismaaudio.com/images/wtl/amaGT/rear%20panel%2028CI8800-1.jpg

http://www.charismaaudio.com/images/wtl/ama/Back%20panel.jpg

http://www.charismaaudio.com/images/wtl/ama/Rear%20View%20grey%20button.jpg

http://www.charismaaudio.com/images/wtl/amaGT/right%20view%20low%20elevation%2028CI8797%20copy.j pg

Now those who have this table just praise it, and others who don't have it usually crave it and want it. I know a few audiophiles on some of these forums who have traded in some very respectful TT's just to own one of these, one such audiophile on another board just sold his very well respected RM10.1, a table he praised as the best table he had ever had, and he has had a bunch, only to sell it and get this table. Peabody and I took a trip to the local Hi-Fi shop last year and we listened to this table and it was wonderful. But no one has ever mentioned that it was made in China. I got over my made in China problem years ago. Its not that I dont want to support American made products, I do. But somethings are just more affordable for me. Shoot, I can get bad American made products right here in St. Louis. The Company headquarters are in New Zealand, but builds in China.

JohnMichael
03-29-2012, 04:52 AM
I remember the days when products from Japan were looked at as lower quality. I read about photo journalists returning from WWII with Canon and Nikon cameras. The Leica, Zeiss users looked down their nose at the inferior products. A new source of design and manufacturing is always suspect.

In my system I have a turntable made in England using an American phono cartridge amplified by a Canadian phono preamp. Of course my integrated amp is designed in the US but assembled in China. Both the Monitor Audio RS6's and MoFi OML1's were built in China.

I would like to be able to afford Boulder electronics and Avalon speakers or even the previous $10,000 Krell int. amp. Since I am not wealthy I have benefitted from the savings of Chinese production. In one review of the Krell S-300i the writer suggests it would have cost twice as much. I worry about sound and budget more than place of origin.

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 05:40 AM
How come none of the stuff you get from Wal Mart is not up to the same quality?

Do the Chinese only build quality audio gear and nothing else?

Are they using the same slave labor for audio gear as they do for Nike sneakers?

RGA
03-29-2012, 05:48 AM
Yeah I agree with Hyfi

I was under the impression that North Americans complained more about the social conscience aspects of "Made in China" rather than build quality - build quality can be excellent or lousy no matter where it's made.

I think it was more about laying off Americans to have it built cheaper in China and then still charging top dollar back to the out of work North Americans. Such as Nike - which doesn't make a pair of shoes that cost them a total of $5 but they retail for $200+

Secondary to that it might be about the treatment of Chinese workers - though the counter to that is that while they only get a few dollars a day - things there cost very little - and a job is better than no job to them.

JohnMichael
03-29-2012, 06:09 AM
How come none of the stuff you get from Wal Mart is not up to the same quality?

Do the Chinese only build quality audio gear and nothing else?

Are they using the same slave labor for audio gear as they do for Nike sneakers?

I do not know I do not shop at Wal Mart. I do not buy Chinese pet food or treats.

Our next source of inexpensive autos will come from China.

The skilled labor needed for audio equipment is increasing the standard of living. This may help the underpaid Nike workers.

I think Chinese products will continue to improve if we demand quality and not just the lowest price.

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 06:18 AM
I do not know I do not shop at Wal Mart. I do not buy Chinese pet food or treats.

I think Chinese products will continue to improve if we demand quality and not just the lowest price.

I don't shop at wal mart either due to the fact that most items are Chinese made use it and dispose of it junk.

I do hope that the quality comes up but not so that the prices match American Union Made items which most Americans cannot afford.

The more people who flock to wal mart and buy what they sell is sending the message that cheap is what they want, or else they would not be buying it there and would spend more for a similar quality made item. So if only Audio Enthusiasts are who are demanding better quality, it isn't going to happen.

RGA
03-29-2012, 07:07 AM
I will make the case that because people don't work in unions and work for businessmen who want to won $400,000 stereos and $400,000 cars and $10,000,000 homes that they pay their employees the absolute minimum.

So the employee makes the same wages that they were making in the mid 1980s and everything around them went way up in price (this happens when you never get a cost of living increase).

So there is the "I won't shop at Wal-mart ideal" - which is fine if you're wealthy enough to do that and the reality of the majority in the working poor that can buy a 2litre of V8 juice for $2.50 or spend $3.99 for the exact same item at Safeway. Pretty much the same thing over 50 food items and it's hard to blame the people who choose to eat everyday for a month or only have enough money for 2 weeks.

Wal-mart sells the same Sony and Samsung LCDs that Best Buy sells - the same Canon cameras, the same PS3, the same clothing lines (Levis, Wrangler etc) that other stores carry.

And yes they sell the $19 DVD player made in China - but no one expects it to be great - if it lasts a year and the picture is better than a VHS tape then it's good enough to give you 12 year old son for a birthday present.

And I've had three DVD players - the only one that was and is any good (not counting my PS3) is one called Aspire that I paid $49 maybe 9 years ago - it still works too. Also got a Danby no name microwave - that thing is into it's 18th year and it has been perfect - even dropped it off the back of a moving truck - has a dent in the side - that was a decade back - still works perfectly - $79. The Panasonic made in Japan pile of poo lasted 3 years was smaller and cost more than double!. You just never know.

Feanor
03-29-2012, 07:12 AM
...
I was under the impression that North Americans complained more about the social conscience aspects of "Made in China" rather than build quality - build quality can be excellent or lousy no matter where it's made.
...
Very true that Chinese build quality can be top-notch. And why not? They can afford to lavish the extra manual on superior quality if they choose to do it. Of course they don't always choose to.

IMO, a lot of the Chinese bashing we see here or, e.g., at AudioAsylum, is coming from the guys who can buy $5000 amps. For them it's protecting their investments. It's scary for them that a $1000 Chinese product might be as good or better than their $5000 amps.

JohnMichael
03-29-2012, 07:13 AM
Oh well with the rise in the economy of China and the rise in wages it will not be long before we begin to manufacture items again. Plus the rise in the cost of fuel shipping from China will become more expensive.

Let us not forget who profited from sending jobs to China.

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 07:23 AM
Very true that Chinese build quality can be top-notch. And why not? They can afford to lavish the extra manual on superior quality if they choose to do it. Of course they don't always choose to.

IMO, a lot of the Chinese bashing we see here or, e.g., at AudioAsylum, is coming from the guys who can buy $5000 amps. For them it's protecting their investments. It's scary for them that a $1000 Chinese product might be as good or better than their $5000 amps.

I am not rich by a long shot but if I really wanted to purchase very expensive gear, I could CHOOSE to remove funds from my savings/retirement funds to do so. But, not always having that kind of money, I always looked for good entry level gear that would only be a few notches below the big boys in performance.

So far I have not bashed any Audio item made in China because I have not heard them all. My Rotel CDP is excelent also.

The more I see and read about some of these low cost tube components, the more intrigued I am and willing to try one someday when my current gear that was built to last a lifetime ever gives out.

I do still struggle as to how they manufacture, tube up, and ship these items for the cost of the tubes alone here in the US.

frenchmon
03-29-2012, 07:26 AM
How come none of the stuff you get from Wal Mart is not up to the same quality?

Do the Chinese only build quality audio gear and nothing else?

Are they using the same slave labor for audio gear as they do for Nike sneakers?

Hifi....read this and see what he says about my Vincent pre and slave labor.

Review | VINCENT SA-T1iSP-T100 German design meets Chinese manufacture This truly multinational Vincent amplifier pairing has a sound that appeals to Andrew Everard rims' eY:iiter.../ ,use ;., ....? ) | Page*139 - May*2007 - Gramophone Archive (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%202007/139/738264/VINCENT+SAT1iSPT100#header-logo)

JohnMichael
03-29-2012, 07:33 AM
I find it interesting that Wal Mart has such buying power that a manufacture may reduce quality on the same product for Wal Mart but maintain there standards for other stores. There was a boys bicycle where the front fork was breaking but it was only the one sold by Wal Mart. No other stores were included in the recall. I will not buy any Canon cameras or lenses for much the same reason. A camera repairman once showed me a Wal Mart camera and the same model sold at other stores. The standard camera had more modules that could easily be replaced and the WM version was less repairable since it had fewer connections to replace parts that failed. He explained it so much better than I can.

There are other Wal Mart practices I do not like but I blame Walton family greed more than Chinese products.

frenchmon
03-29-2012, 07:36 AM
I will make the case that because people don't work in unions and work for businessmen who want to won $400,000 stereos and $400,000 cars and $10,000,000 homes that they pay their employees the absolute minimum.

So the employee makes the same wages that they were making in the mid 1980s and everything around them went way up in price (this happens when you never get a cost of living increase).

So there is the "I won't shop at Wal-mart ideal" - which is fine if you're wealthy enough to do that and the reality of the majority in the working poor that can buy a 2litre of V8 juice for $2.50 or spend $3.99 for the exact same item at Safeway. Pretty much the same thing over 50 food items and it's hard to blame the people who choose to eat everyday for a month or only have enough money for 2 weeks.

Wal-mart sells the same Sony and Samsung LCDs that Best Buy sells - the same Canon cameras, the same PS3, the same clothing lines (Levis, Wrangler etc) that other stores carry.

And yes they sell the $19 DVD player made in China - but no one expects it to be great - if it lasts a year and the picture is better than a VHS tape then it's good enough to give you 12 year old son for a birthday present.

And I've had three DVD players - the only one that was and is any good (not counting my PS3) is one called Aspire that I paid $49 maybe 9 years ago - it still works too. Also got a Danby no name microwave - that thing is into it's 18th year and it has been perfect - even dropped it off the back of a moving truck - has a dent in the side - that was a decade back - still works perfectly - $79. The Panasonic made in Japan pile of poo lasted 3 years was smaller and cost more than double!. You just never know.

You aint said nothing RGA... don't let me start talking about my expensive cheap Whirlool Microwave and Whirlpool Gold Refrigerator that crapped out on me...I will never buy Whirlpool or Kitchen Aide anymore..

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 07:42 AM
I find it interesting that Wal Mart has such buying power that a manufacture may reduce quality on the same product for Wal Mart but maintain there standards for other stores. There was a boys bicycle where the front fork was breaking but it was only the one sold by Wal Mart. No other stores were included in the recall. I will not buy any Canon cameras or lenses for much the same reason. A camera repairman once showed me a Wal Mart camera and the same model sold at other stores. The standard camera had more modules that could easily be replaced and the WM version was less repairable since it had fewer connections to replace parts that failed. He explained it so much better than I can.

There are other Wal Mart practices I do not like but I blame Walton family greed more than Chinese products.

This is also common practice and for as long as I can remember for the same thing in all items such as Washers, Dryers, Fridges, TVs and so on. Each store gets it's own model number with different features. One also cannot play the beat the price game on same item because no stores sell the exact same item, even when it is the same. This is not a Chinese Practice it is all over the place.

And yes, WM does get MFGs to lessen the quality and cost of what they make in order to remain a vendor for WM. I guess the big problem along with the people who keep buying the products, is that the MFGs also choose to degrade themselves to remain a WM vendor and I guess in many cases, stay in business all together.

frenchmon
03-29-2012, 07:44 AM
I find it interesting that Wal Mart has such buying power that a manufacture may reduce quality on the same product for Wal Mart but maintain there standards for other stores. There was a boys bicycle where the front fork was breaking but it was only the one sold by Wal Mart. No other stores were included in the recall. I will not buy any Canon cameras or lenses for much the same reason. A camera repairman once showed me a Wal Mart camera and the same model sold at other stores. The standard camera had more modules that could easily be replaced and the WM version was less repairable since it had fewer connections to replace parts that failed. He explained it so much better than I can.

There are other Wal Mart practices I do not like but I blame Walton family greed more than Chinese products.

I've noticed the very same name brand HD TV's being sold at Costco, Bestbuy, and Walmart to name a few, and each same TV at each different store had one letter different in the model number. I asked why and was told so they know where each TV came from. I suspect each TV had something different on the inside as well...Sorta for the same reasons you gave JM.

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 07:47 AM
Hifi....read this and see what he says about my Vincent pre and slave labor.

Review | VINCENT SA-T1iSP-T100 German design meets Chinese manufacture This truly multinational Vincent amplifier pairing has a sound that appeals to Andrew Everard rims' eY:iiter.../ ,use ;., ....? ) | Page*139 - May*2007 - Gramophone Archive (http://www.gramophone.net/Issue/Page/May%202007/139/738264/VINCENT+SAT1iSPT100#header-logo)

Good review and I have never knocked Vincent gear. Actually, I have always been interested in hearing some since seeing it in Audio Adviser who usually does not sell anything that is less than decent gear for the money.

Feanor
03-29-2012, 08:06 AM
I am not rich by a long shot but if I really wanted to purchase very expensive gear, I could CHOOSE to remove funds from my savings/retirement funds to do so. But, not always having that kind of money, I always looked for good entry level gear that would only be a few notches below the big boys in performance.
...
But you, like me, are a responsible person.


...
So far I have not bashed any Audio item made in China because I have not heard them all. My Rotel CDP is excelent also.

The more I see and read about some of these low cost tube components, the more intrigued I am and willing to try one someday when my current gear that was built to last a lifetime ever gives out.

I do still struggle as to how they manufacture, tube up, and ship these items for the cost of the tubes alone here in the US.
It's an important distinction between products made in China in factories owned or closely QA'd by reputable foreign companies, e.g. Rotel, Cambridge, on the one hand and on the other hand, generic builders and independent Chinese brands.

Chinese Rotel, NAD, etc., are as typically good quality as they were when made in original countries.

Eventually some of the last category will establish a solid reputation of quality. Some are well on the way, e.g. Xindak (http://www.xindak.com/en-us/default.aspx)

JohnMichael
03-29-2012, 08:11 AM
I've noticed the very same name brand HD TV's being sold at Costco, Bestbuy, and Walmart to name a few, and each same TV at each different store had one letter different in the model number. I asked why and was told so they know where each TV came from. I suspect each TV had something different on the inside as well...Sorta for the same reasons you gave JM.


One product I research is car tires. The model of the tire at Wal Mart rarely match the names on the brands web site. I prefer not to have lesser quality tires.

Hyfi
03-29-2012, 08:17 AM
One product I research is car tires. The model of the tire at Wal Mart rarely match the names on the brands web site. I prefer not to have lesser quality tires.

Bingo!

Did you ever wonder why they are $100 bucks cheaper there?

Even Michelin plays that game with WM.

frenchmon
03-29-2012, 10:03 AM
WOW!!! Thanks JM and Hyfi! I never thought about that, and have looked at tires at WM.

frenchmon
03-29-2012, 10:07 AM
Good review and I have never knocked Vincent gear. Actually, I have always been interested in hearing some since seeing it in Audio Adviser who usually does not sell anything that is less than decent gear for the money.

Oh I know Hyfi...but I was told by one member here in a email that Vincent probably uses slave labor like the majority of Chinese gear.
What you said reminded me I wanted to post that, and you gave me a way in....:)

RGA
03-29-2012, 05:57 PM
The Chinese make uber built gear - Grant Fidelity makes amps that will shame McIntosh or Bryston at triple the money. And sound better - often much better - to boot.

Tube Amplifiers (http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Tube-Integrated/)