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RGA
03-10-2012, 07:13 PM
I live in the watch capital of the world it seems - they're everywhere from 5 for $10 to a $million US.

I bought 5 watches for $12 and 4 of them broke - the other is soon to die - you get what you pay for LOL.

Looking for a decent watch that will last 20 years. My price range is the $300 variety.

So far I have seen nice watches (style wise) from Seiko, Casio, and Citizen in that order of preference. The latter two are solar or eco drives. The Seiko is an automatic manual 130th Anniversary edition Sports 5.
watchopenia: Seiko 130th Anniversary (http://watchopenia.blogspot.com/2011/12/seiko-130th-anniversary.html)

The Seiko is the least expensive of the ones I'm looking at and has more of a stand out unique look compared to the other two.

But I can't find reviews on either specific watches or watch companies. I found a site that says what you should look for in a $300 watch which basically said it should have Swiss or Japanese movement and have sapphire crystals in the glass. Seiko uses Hardlex.

I assume Seiko is a pretty safe bet in this budget but that's what most people who buy Bose think about stereos - and I know about as much about watches as Bose buyers do about stereos.

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 07:21 PM
I love watches I am currently wearing my Hamilton Jazzmaster Viewmatic. I am also including a picture of the Omega I am trying not to buy.

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 07:42 PM
Seiko and Orient watch companies make some good automatic watches. I have a Seiko Series 5 automatic that is a good watch I found on Overstock. Seiko takes some grief because they use a plastic date dial but all the rest of the movement is metal with 21 jewel movements. The plastic date dial does not create the friction and drag a metal one can in Swiss watches.

Many watches that are made in Switzerland use ETA movements. The movements vary in quality depending on price paid. In your price range I would check out the channels that sell watches and a watch marked Swiss made. The nice thing about Swiss movements is they have the hack function so when you reset the watch you can stop the seconds hand at 12 and restart the watch after the time correction. My Seiko continues to advance while I reset time without a chance to check for accuracy.

My Hamilton gains about 2-3 minutes a month so at the first of each month I pull out the stem to stop the watch and when time catches up I restart the watch. Of course tonight I have already sprung ahead an hour. I do wear my watch 24 hours to keep the mainspring wound since this will maintain accuracy.

A mechanical watch works the same way watches have worked for hundreds of years. A coiled spring, an escapement and a balance wheel create the motor that tells you the time.

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 07:46 PM
Oh and the Omega is only $3,000.

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 08:02 PM
Here is a great site for some of the better Seiko watches that are not imported to North America.

SeiyaJapan | Grand Seiko | G-Shock | Seiko Spirit | Prospex | Marinemaster | Citizen | 3. SEIKO Mechanical (http://www.seiyajapan.com/c=MfxDSn9JHM1nN2GIY2GtNr1Pz/category/3_seiko_quartz_etc_/)

ForeverAutumn
03-10-2012, 08:40 PM
That Omega is beautiful John.

I just bough my husband a Tissot watch for his 50th birthday. There are some beautiful Tissot's in your price range. His was $400 CDN but it was a discontinued model so I was able to get it for less. It's titanium. Hubby likes a light watch so titanium was perfect for him. The whole watch only weighs a few ounces. But if you don't need titanium, you should be able to find a nice Tissot in the $300 range.

I have a lot of watches, but my favourite is a Skagen. Both Tissot and Skagen are Swiss.

I'm seriously considering the ladies version of the Tissot that I bought my husband. :) I love watches!

Smokey
03-10-2012, 08:48 PM
Timex all the way :thumbsup:

RGA, the Seiko you posted seem to be slightly too bulky to wear (may be for dress wear). However it does really make a nice gift though.


My Hamilton gains about 2-3 minutes a month...

I hope you're not taking somebody's pulse with that watch :D

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 09:20 PM
Timex all the way :thumbsup:



I hope you're not taking somebody's pulse with that watch :D

Actually 2-3 minutes a month is a high percentage of accuracy. I would not have any problem accurately counting someone's beats per minutes.

JohnMichael
03-10-2012, 09:28 PM
That Omega is beautiful John.

I just bough my husband a Tissot watch for his 50th birthday. There are some beautiful Tissot's in your price range. His was $400 CDN but it was a discontinued model so I was able to get it for less. It's titanium. Hubby likes a light watch so titanium was perfect for him. The whole watch only weighs a few ounces. But if you don't need titanium, you should be able to find a nice Tissot in the $300 range.

I have a lot of watches, but my favourite is a Skagen. Both Tissot and Skagen are Swiss.

I'm seriously considering the ladies version of the Tissot that I bought my husband. :) I love watches!


Tissot watches are very nice. I have been looking at a few models. All my watches are mechanical that are self winding. I do not wear battery operated quartz watches.

RGA
03-10-2012, 09:42 PM
I like the Omega watches I've seen here - basically every watch you can imagine is sold in Hong Kong - it's unbelievable.

The Seiko isn't that big - you can buy the same one without the world ring but this is a better picture With the world rings

SeiyaJapan | Grand Seiko | G-Shock | Seiko Spirit | Prospex | Marinemaster | Citizen | SEIKO 5 Sports Limited Edition SARZ010 Movt 4R36 (http://www.seiyajapan.com/product/S-SARZ010/SEIKO-5-Sports-Limited-Edition-SARZ010-Movt-4R36.html) -

without SeiyaJapan | Grand Seiko | G-Shock | Seiko Spirit | Prospex | Marinemaster | Citizen | SEIKO 5 Sports Limited Edition SARZ002 Movt 4R36 (http://www.seiyajapan.com/product/S-SARZ002/SEIKO-5-Sports-Limited-Edition-SARZ002-Movt-4R36.html)

In HK the ring version is about $10 more - both come with a black stainless steel strap. I not into the silver. I generally prefer the leather straps but they seem to break more often so the black metal is a bit better.

From what I can tell the Seiko 5s are now automatic and winding and all have hack.

I'll keep looking - But $300 is absolute max - I don't want to take more money away from the stereo system. $3k for a watch is nutty to me but I'm not a watch hobbyist. And I can't stomach paying for diamonds - since there is not real way to police it and the major corporations will spin doctor it to make themselves look like they have clean hands - I choose to simply not buy them Blood diamond | Human Rights Watch (http://www.hrw.org/news/2010/02/04/blood-diamond)

I'll keep looking - they have a healthy second hand market here as well.

RGA
03-11-2012, 02:42 AM
Well I am going to keep looking - I went out and tried some watches out at two to three times the price of the Seiko - Tissot, Mont cars (or some such name) and Tag Hauer and The Seiko5. M'eh - I don't see what you get for 2-3 times the money that really wowed me.

Seems to me it's more about brand prestige and marketing than quality and this article notes the same thing http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/swiss-vs-japanese-out-house-movements/

And http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/distinctiveness-japanese-vs-swiss/

Certainly has me leaning to the Japanese models at the budget end of the spectrum.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 04:06 AM
Watches are interesting because they have features that can change the value of the movements. BPH or beats per hour are important. The more beats the more accuracy and the Hamilton is in the 28,000 range. The balance wheel depending on the materials used can increase the cost. Top of the line watches still use a balance wheel where they are balanced by adjusting tiny screws which as you can imagine is labor intensive. In my better watch the balance wheel is beryllium bronze which is not subject to effects of temperature changes. The hairspring that attaches to the balance wheel can be made from different materials. As the hairspring expands or contracts the watch can run faster or slower. As the hairspring stretches the watch will run slower so you want a quality hairspring. The type of escapement can also effect price as well as long term reliability. The Omega uses a Co-Axial escapement that will be more dependable and accurate. There is a lot going on under the crystal to justify some watches price. Happy shopping.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 06:26 AM
FA here is the Tissot I would love to own.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 06:34 AM
That Omega is beautiful John.

I just bough my husband a Tissot watch for his 50th birthday. There are some beautiful Tissot's in your price range. His was $400 CDN but it was a discontinued model so I was able to get it for less. It's titanium. Hubby likes a light watch so titanium was perfect for him. The whole watch only weighs a few ounces. But if you don't need titanium, you should be able to find a nice Tissot in the $300 range.

I have a lot of watches, but my favourite is a Skagen. Both Tissot and Skagen are Swiss.

I'm seriously considering the ladies version of the Tissot that I bought my husband. :) I love watches!



I meant to comment that your husband is a very lucky man.:D

ForeverAutumn
03-11-2012, 07:38 AM
FA here is the Tissot I would love to own.

You have very good taste John. That's gorgeous. I love the colour. Hubby needed a new dress watch. This is the current version of the watch that I bought him.

He wanted something slighly smaller so we found him the same watch (slightly different face) in an older model that was a bit smaller and thinner. It looks great on him. Unfortunately, we couldn't find it in an automatic.

Feanor
03-11-2012, 09:51 AM
Nah! Not really. I can admire a handsome looking watch as jewellery; craftsmanship per se I don't much care about. Expensive watches are for rich folk which leaves me out. Meanwhile you can get great accuracy for really cheap.

To wit, what I wear these days: a Casio Wave Ceptor WV58-1AV (http://www.casioca.com/products/Watches/wave_ceptor/WV59A-1AV/), satellite signal regulated. Always accurate to within 1 sec. of official time signals -- and it automatically sets itself for Daylight Savings Time. MSRP C$50 and usually available at some discount.

http://www.casioca.com/resource/images/large/wv59a-1av_large.jpg

I must say, though, that I've had good luck with Seiko watches. I have two quartz Seikos that have been running fine for about 25 years. I bought my late mother a mechanical wind-up Seiko when I started work; she wore it regularly for almost 40 years with only a couple of clean-ups.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 10:23 AM
You have very good taste John. That's gorgeous. I love the colour. Hubby needed a new dress watch. This is the current version of the watch that I bought him.

He wanted something slighly smaller so we found him the same watch (slightly different face) in an older model that was a bit smaller and thinner. It looks great on him. Unfortunately, we couldn't find it in an automatic.



That watch is very handsome. The nice thing about Swiss quartz movements is they still use jewels to reduce friction which of course helps it last much longer. As much as I like mechanical watches quartz are more accurate. Excellent choice both in style and brand.

blackraven
03-11-2012, 12:21 PM
I have a Rado and a Raymond Weil. I like the look of Rado's.

Ajani
03-11-2012, 02:14 PM
I know the watch fans tend to hate when I say this, but watches are just jewelry. So simply determine how much you wish to indulge and find a watch that looks the way you like it. I had 2 Tissots (gave 1 to my brother and planning to give the other to my other brother) and a Kenneth Cole. I also had a Citizen Eco drive which never worked properly. I like Kenneth Cole for affordable but stylish looking watches. Nothing wrong with Seiko or non Eco drive Citizen, but they are so common. Tissot is nice if you want to spend a bit more than a Kenneth Cole, Seiko or Citizen.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 02:52 PM
I know the watch fans tend to hate when I say this, but watches are just jewelry. So simply determine how much you wish to indulge and find a watch that looks the way you like it. I had 2 Tissots (gave 1 to my brother and planning to give the other to my other brother) and a Kenneth Cole. I also had a Citizen Eco drive which never worked properly. I like Kenneth Cole for affordable but stylish looking watches. Nothing wrong with Seiko or non Eco drive Citizen, but they are so common. Tissot is nice if you want to spend a bit more than a Kenneth Cole, Seiko or Citizen.



Yeah we hate it. :D I am more concerned with the quality and design of the movement. I am speaking of mechanical watches be they automatic or stem wind. It takes a lot of precision in manufacture and assembly then the accuracy of the watch needs to be checked and adjusted in different positions. Now I will say all my watches are stainless steel. I have never wanted or could afford a solid gold watch. A well maintained mechanical watch can outlast you. I buy my watches from the inside out. First I look for a beautiful movement. Some folks like high performance autos, some like state of the art audio and there are those of us that like to wear history on our wrists. Remember the days before quartz watches?

Feanor
03-11-2012, 05:34 PM
.... Remember the days before quartz watches?
I certainly do. A few years before quartz arrived on the scene, I got myself a Bulova Accutron, (see Wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulova)), that was timed using a tuning fork stimulated by an electronic oscillator. It could be called electro-mechanical. I believe I still have that Accutron lying around somewhere though I don't think it's in working order.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bf/AccutronMech.jpg/220px-AccutronMech.jpg

Bulova still makes "Accutron" models but don't use the tuning fork mechanism.

Accutrons were typically accurate to <1 minute a month; that was 'way ahead of even the most expensive mechanical watches of the time. Of course a quartz watch is more like a second a month.

RGA
03-11-2012, 06:04 PM
Can I get a wind-up or solar quartz - or is it battery operated?

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 07:02 PM
Can I get a wind-up or solar quartz - or is it battery operated?



Some of the solar watches have a storage capacitor that keeps the watch running when not exposed to sunshine. Not a battery in the sense of a replaceable battery. Some Seikos have a rotor to generate power that is used and stored in the watch without the need to replace a battery.

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 07:12 PM
I certainly do. A few years before quartz arrived on the scene, I got myself a Bulova Accutron, (see Wiki here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulova)), that was timed using a tuning fork stimulated by an electronic oscillator. It could be called electro-mechanical. I believe I still have that Accutron lying around somewhere though I don't think it's in working order.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/bf/AccutronMech.jpg/220px-AccutronMech.jpg

Bulova still makes "Accutron" models but don't use the tuning fork mechanism.

Accutrons were typically accurate to <1 minute a month; that was 'way ahead of even the most expensive mechanical watches of the time. Of course a quartz watch is more like a second a month.


My first quality watch was an Accutron. I loved the hum of the tuning fork. You are correct that the Accutron watch was more accurate than the mechanical watches of the day but then the quartz watch was more accurate than the others. With each increase in oscillations watches became more accurate.

The Bulova Accutron of today is either a quartz watch or a Swiss mechanical movement. Bulovas without the Accutron designation are quartz or Japanese mechanical movements.

There have been some advancements in quartz watches that are unaffected by tempature and accurate to within a few seconds a year.

Ajani
03-11-2012, 07:36 PM
Yeah we hate it. :D I am more concerned with the quality and design of the movement. I am speaking of mechanical watches be they automatic or stem wind. It takes a lot of precision in manufacture and assembly then the accuracy of the watch needs to be checked and adjusted in different positions. Now I will say all my watches are stainless steel. I have never wanted or could afford a solid gold watch. A well maintained mechanical watch can outlast you. I buy my watches from the inside out. First I look for a beautiful movement. Some folks like high performance autos, some like state of the art audio and there are those of us that like to wear history on our wrists. Remember the days before quartz watches?

I see nothing wrong with wearing an expensive watch if it's what floats your boat. Frankly, admiration of quality workmanship and/history is IMO a far more valid reason to buy a luxury watch than any claims of the need for accurate time keeping. The easiest way to read the time is with a digital clock (like the one on a cellphone), but a digital watch just isn't sexy.

RGA
03-11-2012, 07:47 PM
I hate Apple but I met a guy here who had the Apple watch in white iWatchz Q Series watchband for iPod nano - Apple Store (U.S.) (http://store.apple.com/us/product/H3791ZM/A)

I liked the look of it on the arm and he could change the background to many different watch faces.

It looked space age.

The fellow suggested an off brand rather than the Apple version - the off brand is better constructed and about $15 (though I'm in Hong Kong) a fraction of what Apple charges.

It's not really my thing - but it looked pretty cool.

Personally I want the Wozniak Tube powered watch Steve Wozniak Showing Off His NIXIE Tube Watch - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4R3hODnTGo)

JohnMichael
03-11-2012, 07:56 PM
I see nothing wrong with wearing an expensive watch if it's what floats your boat. Frankly, admiration of quality workmanship and/history is IMO a far more valid reason to buy a luxury watch than any claims of the need for accurate time keeping. The easiest way to read the time is with a digital clock (like the one on a cellphone), but a digital watch just isn't sexy.



Interstingly is when the digital read out of time first appeared the talk was easy reading as you state but you lose some perspective of time. If you are looking at a face indicating 12 hours it is easier to visualize two hours with a watch face than a digital read out. Interesting how we humans perceive things.

ForeverAutumn
03-12-2012, 06:05 AM
John, if your watches are all automatic do you have one of those motion thingies to store them in or do you wind them if you don't wear them for a while? When I was shopping for Hubby's watch, I really liked the motion of the automatic watches. The second hand was so smooth. I was thinking about getting an automatic as my next watch, but I like to change things up depending on what I'm wearing or doing each day. If I have to reset and wind it each time I wear it then it might be more hassle then it's worth.

bobsticks
03-12-2012, 06:33 AM
I see nothing wrong with wearing an expensive watch if it's what floats your boat. Frankly, admiration of quality workmanship and/history is IMO a far more valid reason to buy a luxury watch than any claims of the need for accurate time keeping. The easiest way to read the time is with a digital clock (like the one on a cellphone), but a digital watch just isn't sexy.

IMO, the ony thing wrong with expensive watches is that their durability seems to be, in my experience, inversely proportional to the cost. There was a time in my life when I could afford such things and was prone to flights of fancy...if the tag says Panerai, Breitling or Movado you can plan on it self destructing when you stroll around the block.

The two best time pieces I ever owned (and still own)were, surprisingly, by Tag Heuer and Gruen, the latter of which would easily fall into your budget.

RGA
03-12-2012, 06:49 AM
So I went and looked at the watches again today - the 130th Seiko 5 is nice but here's the thing - for about $75 less I can get the same watch but a different colour Some Pictures of the Seiko 5 World Time – SRP127K « Yeoman's Watch Review (http://yeomanseiko.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/some-pictures-of-the-seiko-5-world-time-srp127k/)

Hyfi
03-12-2012, 07:00 AM
I see nothing wrong with wearing an expensive watch if it's what floats your boat.

Yeah, and don't dare say a $4200 Amplifier is expensive after dropping $3K on a watch.

I have a couple Seikos but I wear my Citizen Eco Drive all the time and don't have to worry about the battery.

Ajani
03-12-2012, 07:21 AM
IMO, the ony thing wrong with expensive watches is that their durability seems to be, in my experience, inversely proportional to the cost. There was a time in my life when I could afford such things and was prone to flights of fancy...if the tag says Panerai, Breitling or Movado you can plan on it self destructing when you stroll around the block.

That's about the same as other luxury items like cars and hifi equipment. Lots of luxury gear is even less reliable than cheaper gear.

Ajani
03-12-2012, 07:26 AM
Yeah, and don't dare say a $4200 Amplifier is expensive after dropping $3K on a watch.

I have a couple Seikos but I wear my Citizen Eco Drive all the time and don't have to worry about the battery.

I see no difference between buying expensive watches, hifi, wine or cars. Most persons indulge in something.

JohnMichael
03-12-2012, 10:15 AM
I have never spent more than $1,000 on a watch and my Hamilton was less than $500 during a jewelry store sale. The Omega is the most I would spend on a watch at $3,000 in stainless steel. I admire the design of Patek Phillipes, Blancpains, etc but so not in my price range.

I have owned two Movado Museum watches in quartz and they were dependable for me. As styles change and my wrist enlarged they were too small for me. Friends are wearing them now. I did not mind the Museum watches because they did not have a second hand that jumped around. The Omega styling is timeless but my better watch is too small 35 mm and I am tired of the face and bezel. I would hate to spend a large amount on a watch and grow tired of it.

Of course once you invest in a mechanical watch you have the joy of sending it off to be cleaned, lubed and time adjusted. I do not think $250 is a lot of money but that is what I would pay to have my watch serviced. When you no longer like a watch it is tough to spend the money on it.

RGA
03-12-2012, 06:56 PM
John, if your watches are all automatic do you have one of those motion thingies to store them in or do you wind them if you don't wear them for a while? When I was shopping for Hubby's watch, I really liked the motion of the automatic watches. The second hand was so smooth. I was thinking about getting an automatic as my next watch, but I like to change things up depending on what I'm wearing or doing each day. If I have to reset and wind it each time I wear it then it might be more hassle then it's worth.

I've been doing research a lot now on watches. On Seiko's site (mostly researched their technology since it seems they invented most of it) the new Kinetic watches

"SEIKO's unique Kinetic Auto-Relay technology. It is powered by the movement of your body with Kinetic Perpetual quartz accuracy and reliability. With Auto-Relay, the watch will, when not worn, operate normally for 6 months on a full charge, after which it goes into "sleep" mode for up to four years. The accuracy remains and the calendar continues to show the correct date, month and year, but the hands stop, conserving energy, until, once the watch is put on again, the hands automatically reset to the correct time."

So perhaps a Kinetic Perpetual watch is up your ally. Kinetic | SEIKO WATCH CORPORATION (http://www.seikowatches.com/technology/kinetic/index.html)

I suppose one of the things that is drawing me to Seiko is that there are more of them (more choices) and they make their own movements and their own watches. As noted many of the very expensive brands buy off the shelf movements and stick their own label on the front. Where is the artistry and craftmanship in that?

And many have invented absolutely nothing. Further it's crazy to spend multiples of the price for a "name" when you can get a different watch at a fraction of the price with the identical movement. At least Rolex makes their watches so while expensive I now see that you actually get something for the money. I just don't like the looks of Rolex or the fact that knockoffs look identical for $30.

I think I'm going to get the Sports 5 - it is both Automatic and wind up and has the hack feature.

Bobsticks

Your words ring in my head - if the Seiko dies in 5 years it's a $200 watch - big deal - but if I paid $1,000 I'd be rightly pissed off. Plus the expense of cleaning and or fixing them will no doubt be much more expensive.

The guy here selling Seiko (no commission) said the Sport 5 should go 8-10 years before it needs to be serviced and then it would be $50. They seem well regarded for being durable.

But by then the style may grow weary to me. Big fat watches are in right now - Girls are all wearing men's watches now. The dainty little things are out. But in 10 years the shift could go back the other way.

I had a smallish man's Longines - Wittnauer and it looks lousy now but in 1992 it was quite posh. But I would not pay to have that fixed. Back then it was a $400 battery watch. Batteries failed ever 4-6 months and the seal needed to be replaced each time. bah

I have a Rolex Tudor Oyster that I found in a puddle. Still works to this day - found in 1992. Manual wind. It's weird - have to turn the knob back towards me and then out and then spin forward to wind it. I went to get it serviced and they said it would be $300. Eesh. So it sits in a jar since i'm not entirely sure it's a real Rolex as it seems to have some water damage inside where the hands are.

I looked at the Solar watches but they still have a battery - and they run 8-10 years and need to be replaced (at what cost I don't know). Seems an automatic/wind up would be the best in terms of least service. Probably run 20 years with not much issue. My dad had a Citizen for 30 years - never serviced it and it never had a problem. it was a 17 jewel wind-up.

JohnMichael
03-12-2012, 07:34 PM
I guess it depends on what is important to you. Swiss watches have always been the standard bearer to me. My Hamilton watch uses the ETA 2824-2 25 jewel movement. This movement goes back to the Eternamatic movement which was one of the earlier automatic wind movements. Talk about history. My better watch has an ETA 2892-2 movement which can achieve chronometer status. Swiss watches are continually refined through the years.

When quartz watches first appeared in the marketplace they put a large dent in the mechanical market. Several makers of movements went out of business. ETA continued to produce Swiss movements for other watch manufactures. Until recently ETA supplied a lot of movements to the watch industry. Of course companies claimed they were their own movements. This caused ETA to reduce the number of movements made. Watch designers took ETA to court. The judge decided after each coming year ETA could reduce the number they sold to others. The watches under their banner still receive the ETA movements.

Omega watch movements are designed by Omega and ETA produces the movements. Be they automatic or quartz ETA builds for Omega their most recent designs. The co axial escapement is a fairly new design that will improve the reliability of the movement. ETA makes movements for Hamilton, Tissot which are under their corporate umbrella.

I would love to travel to Switzerland and visit the watch manufactures. When I was in Paris they had a display of the Breguet watches at the Louvre. Their are several Swiss companies that have been around since before this country was a country.

RGA
03-13-2012, 12:21 AM
I guess from my research is that on the budget end of the spectrum Japanese is the way to go (gee just like cars) and the cost no object is where buying Swiss makes more sense.

There is a balance between looks, price, and quality at play here.

http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/distinctiveness-japanese-vs-swiss/

The comments part at bottom I found even more enlightening. Paying for a Swiss watch that's made in China (ahem).

Ajani
03-13-2012, 02:58 AM
I guess from my research is that on the budget end of the spectrum Japanese is the way to go (gee just like cars) and the cost no object is where buying Swiss makes more sense.

There is a balance between looks, price, and quality at play here.

http://www.orientalwatchsite.com/distinctiveness-japanese-vs-swiss/

The comments part at bottom I found even more enlightening. Paying for a Swiss watch that's made in China (ahem).

There is a reason why Citizen, Seiko and Casio are the best-selling watches globally. For the most part, they are exceptionally reliable. Last time I checked (no pun intended), my Citizen watch from my 14th Birthday was still working - 18 years is a clear sign of reliability.

The problem is that because those big 3 brands are everywhere, they lack sex appeal. For many persons, buying a watch is about owning something distinctive; whether due to looks, build quality, craftmanship, etc... So the general idea is to move away from the "mass market" brands to more expensive and/or more exotic ones.

It's just like cars and HiFi. Being too popular can be a turn off for enthusiasts.

ForeverAutumn
03-13-2012, 05:52 AM
Man, you guys are totally making me want to go out and buy a new watch!

Feanor
03-13-2012, 07:13 AM
Internet user tracking is real-time. After reading the latest comment from FA I idly went to the Citizen website; when I got back to AR, the top ad was for XENTUM (http://www.xetum.com/gallery/) watches. Just great. Anyway I kind of like this one ... I like chic simplicity ...

http://www.xetum.com/static/images/flatpages/Xetum-watch-gallery-8.jpg

RGA
03-13-2012, 07:16 AM
Ajani

I sort of understand that but on the flip side of the coin - while I may run into a lot of people who own Seiko - what are the odds of running into someone who owns a Seiko that looks the same. There is far far far far more variety in the looks department, design department, technology department, colour schemes, than Rolex or Omega or most of the smaller brands that I can see.

Sure there are fewer owners of those brands because the prices are high - but just looking at the Seiko 5 sports series alone and there is a myriad of styles, bracelets, colours. I was looking at the Seiko - Monster series - that fans have named it and the selection is wide Collector's Guide To All the Seiko Monster Variants (Incl. Night & Trek Monsters)... (http://forums.watchuseek.com/f281/collectors-guide-all-seiko-monster-variants-incl-night-trek-monsters-219920.html)

Those are not meant as jewelry - they're diver's watches.

I certainly get the expensive watches - the things look beautiful and if the mechanisms are truly better then you're buying artwork. But that's at the very top end - I wonder about the stuff in the middle price points from those "middle brands" like Movado, Bulova, and their ilk.

Another site also pointed out that rather than buying one $2000 watch you could buy 10 different Seikos - which technology and "quality wise" are likely to be just as good if not better. SO you get 10 different looking watches - or be stuck with one look all the time. I mean I like the Seiko sports watch I posted as a casual wear all the time kind of watch but it's maybe not as nice going out to a nice dinner (though frankly I personally don't care that much about such things - but I get that some people are so it would be nice to have several watches for various occasions.

I mean to me you either buy a watch either for the accuracy of time - a Timex digital will be as good as any. Or if you buy a manual for the "quality" of craftmanship in watch making. If it's the latter then it should come down to how accurate they can make the manual watch - ie - you're paying for the high precision quality movement and how well those engineers can get the watch to last a long time and tell good time. And of course the jewelry factor.

But I've been looking at numerous watches lately - Movado, Breitling, Omega, Patek, Rolex, Harry Winston - eesh the list is endless.

What I see in the more expensive lines is a clear design pattern their watches seem to follow - while a Seiko has numerous very different looking designs and within the class they follow a similar pattern. Seiko doesn't compete in the looks or work of art department at all with some of those - then again they do with many of those.

After looks - I am not sure about the technology since they're known to last a long time - so that means the quality must be as good as more expensive watches - and then you ask how well they keep time. Seems to me about as good as you can get from an automatic/manual (see chart scroll down Review of three Seiko watches by Les Zetlein - Pt 2 (http://pippick.com/reviews/seikoreviewpt2.htm)


I think I get what you mean in the sense of brand name ownership - Walking around with a Cartier on your arm separates you from the unwashed masses.

Still you could have 3 watches from different brands - Seiko, Citizen, Casio and you might be able to fit in a Tissot all for under a grand. One for each occasion.

Or be like me with the dainty male Witnauer that would be considered too small for most of what women are wearing today - LOL.

Still I do like the Blue Omega watch that John Michael posted - it's a stunner. The trick is trying to find a Seiko that looks as nice and I haven't seen one yet - so there is that! :mad2:

Err the blue one - the one on the left looks just like every other watch to me.

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 07:28 AM
Man, you guys are totally making me want to go out and buy a new watch!



I am with you. That Omega is calling my name. Since the case is stainless steel it is only $3,000. I have always wanted an Omega and think it is equal to or superior to a Rolex. I may need to hide my debit and credit card and cancel PayPal until the urge passes.

RGA
03-13-2012, 07:31 AM
The Grand Seiko series looks as nice as many other "posh" watches.

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 07:43 AM
Internet user tracking is real-time. After reading the latest comment from FA I idly went to the Citizen website; when I got back to AR, the top ad was for XENTUM (http://www.xetum.com/gallery/) watches. Just great. Anyway I kind of like this one ... I like chic simplicity ...

http://www.xetum.com/static/images/flatpages/Xetum-watch-gallery-8.jpg


That watch uses the ETA 2824-2 movement. Each ETA movement has three levels of quality. The top model has the Incabloc shock protection system and other refinements. My Hamilton uses the 2824-2 Elabore movement which is the midlevel. That is why watches can vary in price when they look like they have the same movement. A watch is more than a pretty face.

Ajani
03-13-2012, 08:07 AM
I'm not really into metal bands, but this Seiko is interesting:

http://www.seikousa.com/products/coutura/images/kinetic_p/l_snp017.jpg

I'm sure it's worth the price based on quality, but it would be a shame to spend $850 on a Seiko, and have everyone assume you're wearing a $100 watch.

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 08:23 AM
A little watch trivia; years ago the quality of a watch was judged by it's number of jewels. Some questionable watchmakers would put in jewels where none were needed. Today a stem wind watch requires about 17 jewels and an automatic needs about 21-25. The moving rotor requires more jewels for the swinging motion that winds the watch. As more complications are added the jewel number increases. Watches with moon phases, date, power reserve, tourbillon, minute repeater would all add to the number of jewels.

Ajani
03-13-2012, 08:31 AM
This is my current watch, cheap but nice IMO:

http://www.fashionwatchesonline.com/images/4448/kenneth-cole-kc1613-watch.jpg

Ajani
03-13-2012, 08:55 AM
And my Tissot (looking for a replacement brown watch):

http://www.watchesproduct.com/product_bimg/tissot-t016.309.16.293.01_20336.jpg

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 09:08 AM
I'm not really into metal bands, but this Seiko is interesting:

http://www.seikousa.com/products/coutura/images/kinetic_p/l_snp017.jpg

I'm sure it's worth the price based on quality, but it would be a shame to spend $850 on a Seiko, and have everyone assume you're wearing a $100 watch.


Seiko used to have a line of watches that were made at the factory they owned in Switzerland. Yes Seiko wanted the Swiss designation on their La Salle line of watches. When I liked a model I asked the salesman what improvements there was in the watch. He did not know so I began to learn about watches. I did not want to spend big bucks without knowing why it was worth it. That is when I became interested in mechanicals.

I understand what you are saying about expensive Seiko's. A mechanical watch has a longer life if properly maintained. The electronics in a quartz watch have a limited life compared to the potential of a mechanical. Yes there are some long life stories about quartz watches. I would never buy a solid gold watch and bracelet only to need the movement replaced in 6-8 years.

Ajani
03-13-2012, 09:31 AM
The Grand Seiko series looks as nice as many other "posh" watches.

Certainly, but it also cost just as much if not more. I knew Seiko had some expensive watches, but I never realized that they had ones over $10K.

Ajani
03-13-2012, 04:21 PM
A little watch trivia; years ago the quality of a watch was judged by it's number of jewels. Some questionable watchmakers would put in jewels where none were needed. Today a stem wind watch requires about 17 jewels and an automatic needs about 21-25. The moving rotor requires more jewels for the swinging motion that winds the watch. As more complications are added the jewel number increases. Watches with moon phases, date, power reserve, tourbillon, minute repeater would all add to the number of jewels.

LOL. Nice fact - once you use a single criteria to determine quality, persons are bound to abuse it.

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 04:48 PM
This is my current watch, cheap but nice IMO:

http://www.fashionwatchesonline.com/images/4448/kenneth-cole-kc1613-watch.jpg



This watch shape is called Tonneau which means barrel shape. This has always been a popular shape. Back in the days of mechanical watches the movements were designed to fit the case. Today with watches being fairly large a round movement can fit inside without problem. Quartz movements can be made fairly small and dropped into any shape of case.

RGA
03-13-2012, 04:53 PM
I'm not really into metal bands, but this Seiko is interesting:

http://www.seikousa.com/products/coutura/images/kinetic_p/l_snp017.jpg

I'm sure it's worth the price based on quality, but it would be a shame to spend $850 on a Seiko, and have everyone assume you're wearing a $100 watch.

I suppose you're right - but then why not buy a fake Rolex for $30 - it looks identical - I know because I walked into a Rolex dealer in Shanghai and walked out to a guy who had the exact same looking watch (I mean it was uncanny) for $30 (which I paid $15 too much for I am sure). If it's just about perception then buy a fake.

But here's the MORE troubling thing Ajani - you spend the $10,000 on a Rolex or Omega and everyone who sees it will just ASSUME it's a fake anyway - LOL.

Granted the fake Rolex I had began to rust and the band broke after 3 months. However there is a website that seems to offer high quality (so they say) replica versions for $300-$500. I don't know how good they are but they may be high quality watches (different movement) but the same "look" as the high end brands. Only people super into watches would likely know the difference. Like the fakes didn't have the Rolex crown on the knob - or the second hand wasn't a smooth rotation.

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 04:55 PM
Here is a truly inventive line of Swiss watches.

Reverso - Complication - Jaeger-LeCoultre (http://www.jaeger-lecoultre.com/CH/en/luxury-watches/line/reverso-complication.html?resolution=1024)

JohnMichael
03-13-2012, 05:05 PM
Granted the fake Rolex I had began to rust and the band broke after 3 months. However there is a website that seems to offer high quality (so they say) replica versions for $300-$500. I don't know how good they are but they may be high quality watches (different movement) but the same "look" as the high end brands. Only people super into watches would likely know the difference. Like the fakes didn't have the Rolex crown on the knob - or the second hand wasn't a smooth rotation.



Must be the same place I buy my knock off Audio Note equipment. Who wants the real thing if you can buy a knock off and trick the inexperienced.

RGA
03-14-2012, 12:53 AM
John

I guess you missed the point.

My question was "why buy a watch?'

1) to tell the time. People who don't care about watches would be happy with a TImex since it "takes a lickin and keeps on tickin" Maybe the G-Shock would be their model up.

2) as a jewelry - get the looker using gold/silver and fine details - telling the time is secondary

3) a Respect for the quality of craftmanship and engineering to get an accurate reliable manual watch - (ie buying a watch designed and built in house. These buyers from what I can tell are the equivalent of the "Car Guys" who restore classic excellent designed cars and are in it for the love of the engineering.

4) to show off how much money they spent.

#2 and #3 go together in the sense that a car guy may have respect for the engineering but they still choose the cars they admire with the tipping factor towards the one they like the looks of best.

#2 and #4 go together with the people who like jewelry and may also like to show off - telling time is secondary.


What I have not accounted for is the "pride of ownership" factor. Ajani noted that he would not like to spend $850 on a Seiko if most people would assume it to be a $100 watch.

I certainly get that - the perceived value of brands is pervasive in society and not limited to cars, watches, stereo equipment clothes, perfume etc.

The fact is when you buy something that is dear you want to feel good about the item - you want to believe your getting excellent value, that it's well made, and yes even providing a sense of "prestige" or pride of ownership.

So if a Breitling or Movado makes you feel that over a Seiko for the same money - I am not here to say anything about it.

Audio has the same problems that X brand is better than Y for prestige reasoning when in reality the Y is much better but doesn't have the name brand or marketing appeal - or looks worse. Audio Equipment is unique because it is not a "showy" product. Unlike Cars and watches that you take with you when you are out in public for ALL TO SEE - Audio sits like a lump in your house.

No one makes fake audio equipment brands in general - but they certainly do for watches because #4 is pervasive - people want to give of the impression they're more than they are via what they possess. And yes RGA bought a fake Rolex - but I would always go on about the fact that it was a fake. I get the impression most people want to give off the impression they spent $15,000 on a watch.

You sound like a #3 guy to me - you care about the design/engineering and you want #2 involved in there.

Still I have not been able to see why one movement is superior to another - more common less common but there doesn't seem to be any winner. Seiko has done a lot more inventing on a lot more technologies than some very expensive brands who have done zippo. So I don't see how a #3 could have any respect for those companies.

I have respect for Audio Note because they hand build almost everything they sell, and they design almost everything they make as well. You pay the big money but you get something.

The VAST VAST majority of high end brands buy off the shelf parts and slap them together and stick a label on the front and hype the hell out of it. You get the same critical parts in $15,000 SS amps that you see in $800 amps.

I guess the thing with watches is it's tough to see what it is you are paying the extra money for - is it the movement - the link I posted to Ajani has the Seiko gaining 3 seconds per week (automatic/manual) which is highly impressive. A $150 Seiko 5 divers watch - with a movement found in many of their watches. So a #3 should be highly impressed by the quality of said movement.

So now it comes down to #2 and #4. Unless I'm missing something that I am not seeing in watch discussions. I mean I have this weird impression this comes down to race a little bit - maybe on a subconscious level - but German/Swiss versus Japanese - I dunno but I certainly don't see a real "substantial" link to quality. Indeed people will fork the money over for Mercedes over a Lexus for the same money where Lexus destroys Mercedes in almost every way yet they won't buy a Japanese car - they need "German Engineering". Yeah a car that breaks down 5 times as often so much for German engineering.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 04:05 AM
Must be the same place I buy my knock off Audio Note equipment. Who wants the real thing if you can buy a knock off and trick the inexperienced.

The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.

Personally, I would rather buy a $100 watch every 10 years or as needed. I don't have a need to play "Look at me, my watch costs as much as your car".

I have 3 watches, a 2-tone Seiko with a white face and numbers, an REI Field Watch, and a 2-tone Citizen eco which I wear all the time and it has been flawless now for 4 years. None of them cost more than $150 so the rest of the dough is in the Audio Note Fund.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 04:43 AM
The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.

Personally, I would rather buy a $100 watch every 10 years or as needed. I don't have a need to play "Look at me, my watch costs as much as your car".

I have 3 watches, a 2-tone Seiko with a white face and numbers, an REI Field Watch, and a 2-tone Citizen eco which I wear all the time and it has been flawless now for 4 years. None of them cost more than $150 so the rest of the dough is in the Audio Note Fund.


Some people wear watches and some people love watches. Some people need excellent audio equipment to enjoy their music and others get their groove on from a Bose wave radio. If you truly like watches and admire the skills needed to make a fine mechanical movement a knock off will not make you happy no matter how many people you fool.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 04:51 AM
Some people wear watches and some people love watches. Some people need excellent audio equipment to enjoy their music and others get their groove on from a Bose wave radio. If you truly like watches and admire the skills needed to make a fine mechanical movement a knock off will not make you happy no matter how many people you fool.

OK, so what is the real markup on these babies?

Does it really cost $20k to make a watch? Or rather a few hundred, then add a diamond chip and shazam, now it's worth $20k.

How much difference is there really in the movements? I'm not saying that fine watchmaking is not a skill but there is only so much you can do with a watch movement.

Feanor
03-14-2012, 05:03 AM
If you want a "value" watch maybe Seiko is the way to go. Like I said, I have two I bought for myself that are close to 25 years old and still working fine, (both quartz with dead batteries at the moment). I have another wind-up that belong to my mother that she wore occasionally for 40 years that still works. Also, Seikos have been great-looking watches in their price ranges.

Admiration of craftsmanship closely combined with pride of ownership are big factors for "fanciers" of watchs as for fanciers of a lot of other things. For example, guns: I've know a quite few gun collectors. Most are not would-be Rambos but rather fit the preceding definition of "fanciers".

And when it comes to hi-fi, I have no doubt that a high proportion of owners of very pricey systems fit the definition of "fanciers" as above. Of course they want good sound but they also want handsome-looking, well-made, technically SOTA equipment in addition.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 05:14 AM
OK, so what is the real markup on these babies?

Does it really cost $20k to make a watch? Or rather a few hundred, then add a diamond chip and shazam, now it's worth $20k.

How much difference is there really in the movements? I'm not saying that fine watchmaking is not a skill but there is only so much you can do with a watch movement.


The same could be said about speakers, automobiles, or any other specialist product. My ten year old Toyota Echo takes me from A to B so why would I spend money on a BMW? In the realm of mechanical watches there is much going on with development in new materials to make a longer lasting and more accurate timepiece. Like a speaker the drivers need an enclosure as with movements they need to be protected. When a movement is designed that is state of the art it is usually placed in a case of precious metal. That type of movement has parts that are made within microns of spec. The parts are then hand assembled followed by calibrating the movement in multiple positions. Once the movement is ready it is fitted to it's case. So for your $20,000 you have extremely tight tolerance parts assembled into a state of the art movement, lots of skilled labor, and a case of gold and either a leather strap of some exotic leather or a gold bracelet.

RGA
03-14-2012, 05:57 AM
Well my reply was lost bugger

Anyway - I think I understand why there is added prestige in the swiss watches - many are hand made - the Seikos pumped out by robots. There is a precision and unique design aspect. If you're into watches then you value these things. JohnMichael has been cordial and probably taking some heat when he should not have to.

I see the value in the expensive watches to a degree and there is a whole package that needs to be accounted for (design, looks, precision, artistry). While the Seiko's arguably look a little more utilitarian. Watches are a form of jewelry after all and that aspect is highly personalized.

I don't think the car analogy works as well because cars are clearly measurably better or worse.

Audio equipment is murkier since it doesn't play well to my scientific ideals of better/worse because unfortunately too often I come across the mediocre measurements that sound more like the real instruments and therefore more accurate to the ear while on paper it is not so. I get the groaning sensation every time I see graphs and the the one that's worse I have to say "yeah but it sounds better" - uggh.

Watches I am not seeing what constitutes as clearly better - but like I said there is a much clearer jewelry aspect to the thing - and where fashion is concerned some bets are off.

Anyway - I ended up buying the Seiko today - I signed up to Citi-bank Hong Kong in October and received a thank you of about $130 US in grocery coupons. That was nice. So what the heck - almost a free watch. Since I move around so much I like the world clock bezel and knowing what time it is anywhere anytime - a bit of a gimmick but I would use it from time to time. I almost opted for the black steel brown bezel watch but for 1/3 more money I just could not do it. The black metal is a coating so if it scratches the silver would come through - so that didn't help.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 06:02 AM
The same could be said about speakers, automobiles, or any other specialist product. My ten year old Toyota Echo takes me from A to B so why would I spend money on a BMW? In the realm of mechanical watches there is much going on with development in new materials to make a longer lasting and more accurate timepiece. Like a speaker the drivers need an enclosure as with movements they need to be protected. When a movement is designed that is state of the art it is usually placed in a case of precious metal. That type of movement has parts that are made within microns of spec. The parts are then hand assembled followed by calibrating the movement in multiple positions. Once the movement is ready it is fitted to it's case. So for your $20,000 you have extremely tight tolerance parts assembled into a state of the art movement, lots of skilled labor, and a case of gold and either a leather strap of some exotic leather or a gold bracelet.

Right, and 60 seconds is still 60 seconds.

At least with speakers, you can clearly hear the difference between a pair costing $100 and a pair costing $5k, with a watch you can't tell a difference in the fact that over 30 some years one will be off by a millisecond and the other off by 5 milliseconds.

What about resale? Can yo buy a $20k watch today and sell it for $22k next year?

Feanor, with gun collecting, whatever gun you buy today holds it's value or more. The un-shot collector editions go up drastically.

Harleys are similar, you can get what you aid for it a year later unlike cars that drop in value the second you drive it off the lot.

ForeverAutumn
03-14-2012, 06:22 AM
The difference is, you can hear the difference in audio quality but with watches, they all tick one second at a time and you can't see a difference whether the watch is $100 or $10000.

You know, I thought that until I started shopping for watches for Hubby. I had only a $500 budget, but some jewellers were showing me watches in the 4 digit range...don't ask me why, I was clear on my budget.

They all did the same basic job...told the time. But if you watched the second hand, you could see the difference in movement on some watches. Some of the watches had a definate ticking movement. Others just flowed around the face smoothly. There were also options. Waterproof depth. Scratch resistance. Things like moon phases and second time zones, if that floats your boat. There is a series of Tissot watches that have touch technology built in (they were out of my price range, so I didn't spend much time learning about them, but I'm intrigued). Hubby doesn't like heavy watches, so I discovered that there are watches made out of titanium, but you won't find one for $100.

Buying a watch is like buying a car, as JohnMichael pointed out. They all tell the time. But do you want to chug along listening to a noisy engine and have to manually roll down your window? Or do you want a smooth, quiet ride with some bells and whistles?

Personally, if I never have to listen to something tick again, that would make me very happy. Few things get on my nerves more than constant ticking.


OK, so what is the real markup on these babies? I have a friend who owns an ad agency and does work for Bulova. He can get watches from them for half price. So I have to figure that the markup, on Bulova at least, is around 100%. I don't think that they would sell to him at a loss.

I also discovered, while shopping for hubby, that prices were negotiable. None of the jewellers that I talked to about price would have charged me the ticketed price. At the high end of savings, I was offered 25% off. The watch we ended up buying was 13% off (equivalent to the tax).

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 06:26 AM
You know, I thought that until I started shopping for watches for Hubby. I had only a $500 budget, but some jewellers were showing me watches in the 4 digit range...don't ask me why, I was clear on my budget.

They all did the same basic job...told the time. But if you watched the second hand, you could see the difference in movement on some watches. Some of the watches had a definate ticking movement. Others just flowed around the face smoothly. There were also options. Waterproof depth. Scratch resistance. Things like moon phases and second time zones, if that floats your boat. There is a series of Tissot watches that have touch technology built in (they were out of my price range, so I didn't spend much time learning about them, but I'm intrigued). Hubby doesn't like heavy watches, so I discovered that there are watches made out of titanium, but you won't find one for $100.

Buying a watch is like buying a car, as JohnMichael pointed out. They all tell the time. But do you want to chug along listening to a noisy engine and have to manually roll down your window? Or do you want a smooth, quiet ride with some bells and whistles?

Personally, if I never have to listen to something tick again, that would make me very happy. Few things get on my nerves more than constant ticking.

I have a friend who owns an ad agency and does work for Bulova. He can get watches from them for half price. So I have to figure that the markup, on Bulova at least, is around 100%. I don't think that they would sell to him at a loss.

If you can hear the second hand on your watch ticking, you should be writing reviews for Stereophile cause you got Golden Ears.

As long as the watch tells me what time it is, I don't care how the second hand moves.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 06:32 AM
Handsome watch RGA. That is a classic style that you should enjoy for many years. No more changing batteries. Mechanical watches run slightly fast at first. You will know the watch needs cleaned and lubed when it begins to lose time. Of course it will be years before that happens. The more you wear your watch the more accurate it will be since this will keep the mainspring wound. I only take my watch off to shower.

If your watch has an exhibition back it can be interesting to look at the movement. You can see the swing of the rotor that winds the watch and the balance wheel and hairspring oscillate that regulates the time. Young friends who only know about quartz watches are surprised that mechanical watches are still being made. You know the same ones who do not know turntables are still being sold.

Enjoy!

ForeverAutumn
03-14-2012, 06:33 AM
If you can hear the second hand on your watch ticking, you should be writing reviews for Stereophile cause you got Golden Ears.

LOL! I can't hear my watches unless I forget to take it off before I go to bed. Then if my hand ends up under, or near, my pillow I realize very quickly that my watch is still on.

However, we used to have a couple of clocks in house that drove me mad until I convinced my husband that they needed to go in the basement! :)


As long as the watch tells me what time it is, I don't care how the second hand moves.

And that's totally cool. Be happy with your $10 watch and let those of us who appreciate the finer watches enjoy our purchases. I was just trying to explain to you that there are, in fact, differences and what they are aside from the things that John's been talking about.

ForeverAutumn
03-14-2012, 06:38 AM
I can't see RGA's photo of his new watch here. Grrrrrr. I'll have to wait until I get home. Congrats on your new watch RGA. Now you have no excuses if you're late for something! :)

RGA
03-14-2012, 06:52 AM
ForeverAutumn

It's the one reviewed in this link Some Pictures of the Seiko 5 World Time – SRP127K « Yeoman's Watch Review (http://yeomanseiko.wordpress.com/2011/11/19/some-pictures-of-the-seiko-5-world-time-srp127k/)

here is the back

RGA
03-14-2012, 07:03 AM
John Michael

I doubt it will be the only one I buy - I live in Hong Kong the watch capital of the world - it's absolutely nutty here.

Here is my blog of living in Hong Kong so far Richard in Hong Kong (http://richard-austen.blogspot.com/)

There is no way around it - the marketing finally got to me - it's relentless. The Seiko is a big heavy brute watch which I like - but I would like a leather strap watch - very much like the Blue Omega you posted - I am nowhere near in the $3k range but if I see something that looks somewhat in the ballpark from a reputable company I would go for it.

I have read positive things about Orient. So perhaps I'll look around - gee maybe get one Swiss - one Japan - and one China. Future watch reviewer - hahaha - I'm in the right place.

I will be going tomorrow to some stereo shops with a fellow Dagogo reviewer (Lawrence Lock) who is far more knowledgeable about classical music than I. He's going to show me around. He recently interviewed Karita Mattila - who? Yeah I don't know opera at all. Interview with Finnish soprano Karita Mattila - The Columns - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=1000)

I really have to stay away from these expensive hobbies because umm I seriously don't have the money for them. Audio is somewhat sane - it can be - but watch collecting would ruin me. I know if I started I'd be buying them up beyond my means.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 07:08 AM
LOL! I can't hear my watches unless I forget to take it off before I go to bed. Then if my hand ends up under, or near, my pillow I realize very quickly that my watch is still on.

However, we used to have a couple of clocks in house that drove me mad until I convinced my husband that they needed to go in the basement! :)



And that's totally cool. Be happy with your $10 watch and let those of us who appreciate the finer watches enjoy our purchases. I was just trying to explain to you that there are, in fact, differences and what they are aside from the things that John's been talking about.

Hey, you all can enjoy whatever you like, I just question the motive and thinking that goes with a purchase of something that doesn't do it better than the cheaper one. I question the same with cars too. Oh yeah, one gets to the next red light faster than the other. And as I pointed out earlier, the same person that complains that a $4200 Amp is crazy, would go out and buy a $10k watch without a thought.

Bells and whistles are great but again can be had for much less.

I think you mis-read, my 3 watches cost between $100 and $150, not $10. I am not stopping you from enjoying an extravagant look at me purchase. Just chiming in on a public message board. If you would like to exclude those that don't agree with you 100%, take the thread Private.....oh wait, can't do that here...take it to PM.

RGA
03-14-2012, 07:32 AM
Hyfi

I think the thing is the jewelry factor - Watches are jewelry - audio equipment isn't.

For instance the Omega at $3k is a stunning watch - so are a number of the very expensive models here - does it tell time better than a cheapish watch? No.

But it's the same reason people buy a necklace - what is the point? Style - Fashion - and people are either into such things or they're not. I see no problem with that - and watches are a cut above just jewelry at least since there is function and design effort in them - it's not just melted gold and artificially propped up in value stones like diamonds - which are only "rare" because the giant diamond companies make them artificially rare.

Jewelry doesn't entirely get away from the audio industry either - Peter has been railing against most stuff on the market for designing a look first and then trying to get quality sound out of a look that has no hope of producing great sound. Or component makers that use 1/2 inch thick plates to weigh an amp down to make it seem solid because buyers think heavy is better. When you look inside and see that the actual parts that influence sound are cheap affairs decked out in fancy cases and sculpted looks.

TheHills44060
03-14-2012, 07:42 AM
I do not have any interest in watches nor do I like wearing them but you'd better believe I have 3 nice ones on tap at all times. Women judge men by: first their shoes and second their watch.

Can't tell you how many times I've been on dates and had the broad ask me what kind of watch I was wearing and where I purchased it. Then on the second date I've caught them peering at my wrist to see if I was wearing the same watch.

ForeverAutumn
03-14-2012, 07:57 AM
Women judge men by: first their shoes and second their watch.

Can't tell you how many times I've been on dates and had the broad ask me what kind of watch I was wearing and where I purchased it. Then on the second date I've caught them peering at my wrist to see if I was wearing the same watch.

Wow, you need to find some less shallow women to date. :nonod:

I have never judged a man on how expensive his watch, shoes, or car is. It's a good thing too, because if I did I would have never given my husband the time of day (pardon the pun :)). And he's the best thing that's ever happened to me.

Of course, you might want to stop calling women "broads".

TheHills44060
03-14-2012, 08:01 AM
It is probably a gauge as to how much money you are likely to spend frivolously on them.
I think you hit the nail on the head there.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 08:01 AM
I do not have any interest in watches nor do I like wearing them but you'd better believe I have 3 nice ones on tap at all times. Women judge men by: first their shoes and second their watch.

Can't tell you how many times I've been on dates and had the broad ask me what kind of watch I was wearing and where I purchased it. Then on the second date I've caught them peering at my wrist to see if I was wearing the same watch.

Glad the woman I married is not that shallow.
It is probably a gauge as to how much money you are likely to spend frivolously on them.

TheHills44060
03-14-2012, 08:05 AM
Wow, you need to find some less shallow women to date. :nonod:
You'd be surprised how many of them are out there but yeah they weed themselves out.


Of course, you might want to stop calling women "broads".
I certainly don't make a habit of it.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 08:05 AM
The best Swiss movements are made in limited quantities. Then installed in a precious metal case. Due to limited production and rising prices of gold watches can very much increase in price. The watch auctions are quite interesting and a rare old watch with several complications can bring in many times it's original price.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 08:17 AM
The US had a number of good watchmakers years ago. Hamilton watches started out being made in this country. I think the design is still happening here. They use Swiss ETA movements today in their watches. Benrus, Gruen, Elgin were also watches made here. Benrus and Hamilton supplies troops with watches during WW II and some of the designs are updates of those watches. Many of our older pocket watches are very collectible and rising in price.

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 08:29 AM
The US had a number of good watchmakers years ago. Hamilton watches started out being made in this country. I think the design is still happening here. They use Swiss ETA movements today in their watches. Benrus, Gruen, Elgin were also watches made here. Benrus and Hamilton supplies troops with watches during WW II and some of the designs are updates of those watches. Many of our older pocket watches are very collectible and rising in price.

I have an old Hamilton that was my wife's uncles. It is a wind up and still works but is not much to look at. It has a cool purple face but needs a new band if ever used. Always wondered if it is worth anything.

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 09:17 AM
I have an old Hamilton that was my wife's uncles. It is a wind up and still works but is not much to look at. It has a cool purple face but needs a new band if ever used. Always wondered if it is worth anything.


A classic Hamilton with a purple face may make it unique. The wrist band is affordable and a jeweler could polish the case. I am not sure if replacing the crystal, if scratched, would change the value.

Most mechanical watches stop not from a broken part but lubricating fluids that dry out or become gummy. Some collectors buy "non-working" top line watches for pennies on the dollar and then send them to the watchmaker for restoration. They polish the case, freshen the dial, clean and lube the movement. Then they recalibrate the watch by adjusting the hairspring. You end up with an accurate timepiece of much greater value than if you bought it new or in working condition.

Feanor
03-14-2012, 11:00 AM
Hyfi

I think the thing is the jewelry factor - Watches are jewelry - audio equipment isn't.

...
Ha! I have to dispute that audio equipment isn't jewelry -- some is certainly designed for eye appeal for beyond any functional requirement.

Do we really need examples? ...

http://www.vac-amps.com/Sig_Pre_IIa.jpg

https://passlabs.com/images/uploads/Header_banner/3/home_x1000.5_on_case__large.jpg

http://www.classeaudio.com/images-product/CP-800_A_sm.jpg

http://www.simaudio.com/images/lg_moon700i.jpg


http://www.hometheater.com/images/010611dagostino.jpg

http://www.stereophile.com/images/011511dan-600.jpg?1295112049

http://www.extravaganzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Chord-CPA8000-1.jpg

http://www.charismaaudio.com/images/shanling/CD-T2000C.jpg

http://www.chordelectronics.co.uk/images/page/chord-image4.jpg


http://www.charismaaudio.com/T-300F.jpg

Hyfi
03-14-2012, 03:39 PM
Ha! I have to dispute that audio equipment isn't jewelry -- some is certainly designed for eye appeal for beyond any functional requirement.

Do we really need examples? ...




This is me drooling over all that.....but I still would never pay what it cost. My VAC is a little less gawdy but still a rare gold face. But all of it sounds better than a second hand ticking....

http://www.talknerdytomelover.com/storage/drooling_homer.gif?__SQUARESPACE_CACHEVERSION=1283 857706832

JohnMichael
03-14-2012, 04:49 PM
Watch fans enjoy this video.

A walk through the Orient Watch Factories in Japan - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MH1IZ9rA28&feature=player_embedded#)!

Worf101
03-14-2012, 05:50 PM
I've only two watches worth talking about.

1. A "pre-war" Witnauer (sp) from an old girlfriend. It was her fathers.

2. A "Fender 75th Anniversary" watch with the Fender logo on it. Recently busted the band on it, gotta git er fixed.

Worf

RGA
03-14-2012, 06:09 PM
Feanor

yes certainly an element of jewelry to some brands. This doesn't mean they're not as good or even better than ugly ducklings for the same money - but you're paying for the style.

Hyfi
03-15-2012, 03:11 AM
A classic Hamilton with a purple face may make it unique. The wrist band is affordable and a jeweler could polish the case. I am not sure if replacing the crystal, if scratched, would change the value.

Most mechanical watches stop not from a broken part but lubricating fluids that dry out or become gummy. Some collectors buy "non-working" top line watches for pennies on the dollar and then send them to the watchmaker for restoration. They polish the case, freshen the dial, clean and lube the movement. Then they recalibrate the watch by adjusting the hairspring. You end up with an accurate timepiece of much greater value than if you bought it new or in working condition.

My bad, it's a Waltham. I knew it had "Ham" in the name. Looks a whole lot like this one and says 'Anti Magnetic' on the back.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-OcgV2hWimFY/TjlKqbuIBdI/AAAAAAAAHnI/WpivT5x1eqk/s1600/DSC07779.JPG

Hyfi
03-15-2012, 04:08 AM
While looking for pics of my old Waltham, I found this site of unique watches...follow the links on right. The first link I found were sex watches but I figured better to post this link starting with Weapon Watches.

Watchismo Times: concealed watches (http://watchismo.blogspot.com/search/label/concealed%20watches)

bobsticks
03-15-2012, 06:57 AM
Feanor

yes certainly an element of jewelry to some brands. This doesn't mean they're not as good or even better than ugly ducklings for the same money - but you're paying for the style.

I tend to agree with RGA. I've heard all but two of those pieces (the CPA and the Oracle) and they bring the goods.

Feanor
03-15-2012, 08:00 AM
I tend to agree with RGA. I've heard all but two of those pieces (the CPA and the Oracle) and they bring the goods.
And I agree with both of you -- just because a product is pretty doesn't mean it can perform.

BTW, that isn't the Oracle, it's a Shanling.

Shanlng ...
http://www.charismaaudio.com/T-300F.jpg

Oracle ...
http://www.oracle-audio.com/imagesup/produit/7_oracle_5169_1.jpg

And as a bonus, the Oracle t/t ....
http://www.oracle-audio.com/imagesup/produit/1_delphi_mk_vi_1.jpg

Also, the Oracle amp ...
http://www.oracle-audio.com/imagesup/produit/9_sii1000gif.gif

ForeverAutumn
03-15-2012, 09:03 AM
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because that Shanling is one ugly piece of equipment. It looks like a cheaply made Star Wars toy.

JohnMichael
03-15-2012, 09:34 AM
John Michael

I doubt it will be the only one I buy



I have read positive things about Orient. So perhaps I'll look around - gee maybe get one Swiss - one Japan - and one China. Future watch reviewer - hahaha - I'm in the right place.


I really have to stay away from these expensive hobbies because umm I seriously don't have the money for them. Audio is somewhat sane - it can be - but watch collecting would ruin me. I know if I started I'd be buying them up beyond my means.


Several years ago I bought a new automatic Timex. It uses a Chinese movement. The movement does not have anyway I can see to adjust the accuracy. I read where the Chinese watch makers designed their movements after an older Rolex movement. The movement in the Timex is not finished to a high level. Swiss and Japanese movements are of an obvious higher quality.

You might also want to consider Russian watches. They are less expensive than some and have interesting designs.

Hyfi
03-15-2012, 09:58 AM
I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder because that Shanling is one ugly piece of equipment. It looks like a cheaply made Star Wars toy.

Someone told me you can hear the seconds tick off as the CD plays too.

JohnMichael
03-15-2012, 02:48 PM
Here is a link to my dream watch's movement.

OMEGA Watches: Co-Axial Technology (http://www.omegawatches.com/spirit/watchmaking/co-axial/technology)

Mash
04-08-2012, 04:18 PM
Watches, huh?

My everyday is a Special Forces UDT 1000 which over many years has proven indestructable. The Breitling CoPilot is great for flying. The rest are toys.

JohnMichael
04-08-2012, 04:58 PM
Chase Durer is a controversial figure in the watch industry. Like many the watch has an ETA quartz movement.

Mash
04-08-2012, 06:27 PM
and doesn't blow out, why should we care?

Now if you want to dis the tactical 9mm that is my goto, that is different...................

E-Stat
04-09-2012, 07:16 AM
Anyone into watches
For a long time. When I was thirteen, I saved up and got an Omega Flightmaster. Today, I have five:

Nice: Omega Speedmaster 3520.50
Dress: Seiko Rolex clone (26 years old!)
Daily: Casio analog solar atomic
Knockaround: Casio analog
Keepsake: Dad's old Omega

JohnMichael
04-09-2012, 07:36 AM
For a long time. When I was thirteen, I saved up and got an Omega Flightmaster. Today, I have five:

Nice: Omega Speedmaster 3520.50
Dress: Seiko Rolex clone (26 years old!)
Daily: Casio analog solar atomic
Knockaround: Casio analog
Keepsake: Dad's old Omega


Cheers to the Omegas.

Mash
04-09-2012, 07:05 PM
I fly with the Brietling CoPilot. I am on/in the water with the udt1000.

I have automatics with 17j,... 23j,... up tp 50j. But these are for dress..... How do you feel with a $10K watch on your wrist? Like you might loose your hand? Wear a Zenith Gold 416 in public & tell me you do not feel conspicuous....