New Class D Audio Complete Amplifiers

[Ajani]

Class D Audio now has some new custom cases for their amps:

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/mrnick_2006/NewImage.jpg

http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g295/mrnick_2006/ClassD-2.jpg

Sadly, the prices for the complete amps has gone up as a result, but at least the finished product now truly looks well... finished.

Class D Audio Complete Amplifiers (http://classdaudio.com/complete-amplifiers.html)

$175 Class D amp--120 wpc (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.3040)

[Ajani]

http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/d/cda_case_front_2.jpg

[Ajani]

http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/d/sds_case_back_1.jpg

[LeRoy]

I have never heard of these guys and the price is not extreme. Nice pics of the gear!

[blackraven]

I have never heard of these guys and the price is not extreme. Nice pics of the gear!


Here is a nice short read about Class D Audio-

$175 Class D amp--120 wpc (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=76400.0)

I own a Kit and Feanor has one too. A very nice amp for the money.

[Feanor]

Yes, they done a slick job. I like that it's got both balanced + single ended inputs plus a selector switch. Also the trim pot controls are nice, (though some owners jump the pots with resistors or straight wires).

The case and these features easily justify the cost of the completed amp vs. the raw kit.

Class D Audio (http://classdaudio.com/) has spiffed up their website a lot but unfortunately info is still often sketchy. Tom, the head honcho, is pretty good about answering email questions though.

[harley .guy07]

They look real good and I am thinking about pulling the trigger on one to see how good they really are and to retire my Adcom to rear channel duty. My Dynaudio's don't really half to have more power but I know that they would perform better with more power and the fact that the class d audio amps are good priced and I have heard that they are one heck of an amp even compared to high end amps at several thousand dollars and that to me says that they might be something to look at for sure.

[Ajani]

Yes, they done a slick job. I like that it's got both balanced + single ended inputs plus a selector switch. Also the trim pot controls are nice, (though some owners jump the pots with resistors or straight wires).

The case and these features easily justify the cost of the completed amp vs. the raw kit.

Class D Audio (http://classdaudio.com/) has spiffed up their website a lot but unfortunately info is still often sketchy. Tom, the head honcho, is pretty good about answering email questions though.

Tom really needs to work on the website. He needs info on the SDS440 in the amp section. I have no idea if the SDS470 still exists and if it does then why does the SDS258 still exist? Since the 440 and 470 deliver 220 and 250 watts into 8 ohms (double into 4) respectively, while SDS258 only delivers 250 into 8 (no doubling), so I'm not sure why they still make the 258.

[Ajani]

Back of the CDA amps: http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/d/cda_back.jpg

[Ajani]

Here's something for Feanor and Blackraven:

The custom case for your existing Class D amps (including all parts except wires) for $220:

http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/s/d/sds-case-parts.jpg

Class D Audio CUSTOM SDS ENCLOSURE WITH ALL COMPONENTS (http://classdaudio.com/custom-sds-enclosure-with-all-components.html)

[Ajani]

CDA case is $200:

http://classdaudio.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/750x750/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/c/d/cda_complete_kit.jpg

Class D Audio Build Your Own CDA Class D AudioAamplifier (http://classdaudio.com/build-your-own-cda-class-d-audioaamplifier.html)

[blackraven]

It looks tempting but I think that I will just buy a Par Metal case for $80. I will give it some thought though.

[Feanor]

It looks tempting but I think that I will just buy a Par Metal case for $80. I will give it some thought though.
The Par Metal is cheaper but don't overlook that the CDA case comes with connectors and is drilled and stencilled.

[Ajani]

BR - if you just want the case without the connectors, it's available for $135:

Class D Audio Custom Chassis for CDA amplifier & Kits - Class D Amp Kits - Complete Amplifiers (http://classdaudio.com/complete-amplifiers/amplifier-kits/custom-chassis-for-cda-amplifier-kits.html)

[Ajani]

The SDS case without connectors is $140:

Class D Audio Class D Audio SDS Chassis - Class D Amp Kits - Complete Amplifiers (http://classdaudio.com/complete-amplifiers/amplifier-kits/class-d-audio-sds-chassis.html)

[Ajani]

So the SDS-470 is still available:

Delivers 300 watts @ 8 and 600 @ 4. Given the current naming convention, Tom should have called the complete amp the SDS-600.

Class D Audio SDS-470C Custom Class D Amplifier - Complete Amplifiers (http://classdaudio.com/complete-amplifiers/sds-470c-custom-class-d-amplifier.html)

Sadly, the price has gone up $100 from $590 (when it debuted in the old case) to $695 in the new case (Tom did note when it appeared that the price was going to go up - so part of that difference is due to introductory pricing and the remainder due to the new case).

Still $700 for the SDS-470 is still a very good price for a complete amplifier with those specs. One of the first user reviews for the 470 in the case is out:

Class D Audio SDS-470 full review (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=104385.new#new)

[harley .guy07]

I bought the 440 complete amp and did not even know the 470 existed because it was not listed when I was on the site but really the 440 had the right amount of power for my needs and I absolutely love my 440 since I got it a few days ago and so far it has been one of the best amps I have heard so I don't think I will miss the couple hundred more watts the 470 puts out but I will say I am more than impressed with them so far.

[Ajani]

I bought the 440 complete amp and did not even know the 470 existed because it was not listed when I was on the site but really the 440 had the right amount of power for my needs and I absolutely love my 440 since I got it a few days ago and so far it has been one of the best amps I have heard so I don't think I will miss the couple hundred more watts the 470 puts out but I will say I am more than impressed with them so far.

How in the world did I miss your 1st impressions of the 440 in your thread??? I was about to ask why you hadn't updated us until this post, then I saw your thread with the update from 2 days ago... :mad2:

Anyway, Tom really needs to update his site. Potential customers should know all the choices available. He needs to put spec pages for the SDS-440 and 470 amplifiers (not the complete amps, just the amp boards). There is just too much confusion about what is available or not.

Glad to know you have such a positive impression of the 440 so far. I look forward to your detailed report and especially pics!

[LeRoy]

I bought the 440 complete amp and did not even know the 470 existed because it was not listed when I was on the site but really the 440 had the right amount of power for my needs and I absolutely love my 440 since I got it a few days ago and so far it has been one of the best amps I have heard so I don't think I will miss the couple hundred more watts the 470 puts out but I will say I am more than impressed with them so far.

The only experience I have with digital amps is with the original T-Amp and also listened to Bel Canto's latest digital amp offering. How would you compare the SQ of you 440 to other digital amps you may have heard before?

[Feanor]

I bought the 440 complete amp and did not even know the 470 existed because it was not listed when I was on the site but really the 440 had the right amount of power for my needs and I absolutely love my 440 since I got it a few days ago and so far it has been one of the best amps I have heard so I don't think I will miss the couple hundred more watts the 470 puts out but I will say I am more than impressed with them so far.
Congrats, Harley, and give us a full report soon. But do allow for some burn-in; I didn't hear much difference in case of my SDS-258, but I think there was some.

The Class D Audio website is puzzling for it's lack of information & consistency. What exactly IS the SDS-440? Presently there is only the complete amp list. There is no such raw amp module nor any such kit, at least not at the moment. Have a peek inside the case and let us know.

[Ajani]

Congrats, Harley, and give us a full report soon. But do allow for some burn-in; I didn't hear much difference in case of my SDS-258, but I think there was some.

The Class D Audio website is puzzling for it's lack of information & consistency. What exactly IS the SDS-440? Presently there is only the complete amp list. There is no such raw amp module nor any such kit, at least not at the moment. Have a peek inside the case and let us know.

It's supposed to be a new amp board that puts out 220 into 8 and 440 into 4 ohms.

[blackraven]

I think that I am going to have to buy an SDS-440 or 470 and compare it to my Parasound. I have the CDA-254 and it does some things better and some things worse than the Parasound. I am hoping that the SDS amps are a big improvement.

[Ajani]

I think that I am going to have to buy an SDS-440 or 470 and compare it to my Parasound. I have the CDA-254 and it does some things better and some things worse than the Parasound. I am hoping that the SDS amps are a big improvement.

I hope you do. I'm already looking forward to your review!

The SDS is supposed to be a real step up from the CDA line.

[Feanor]

I think that I am going to have to buy an SDS-440 or 470 and compare it to my Parasound. I have the CDA-254 and it does some things better and some things worse than the Parasound. I am hoping that the SDS amps are a big improvement.
This will be a great comparison. :2:

[blackraven]

It is going to be a few months before I can buy it, probably during the summer unless the tax man is good to me.

[Ajani]

It is going to be a few months before I can buy it, probably during the summer unless the tax man is good to me.

Don't worry, I'm patient :D

I actually loaned out my headphone rig (in my signature) since Christmas to my little brother. So I can wait a few months for your review.

[blackraven]

Having just bought a used sub and now bidding on a vintage Tube Tuner, my wife would not be too happy if I dropped $700 on an amp.

[Poultrygeist]

I have a gain control on my Aric preamp and it's a PITA to adjust.

I do think a tube preamp with the class d is the way to go. If I use a ss pre with my class d board amp it doesn't compete with the MW SET but if I add a tube pre it gets a lot closer.

[Feanor]

I have a gain control on my Aric preamp and it's a PITA to adjust.

I do think a tube preamp with the class d is the way to go. If I use a ss pre with my class d board amp it doesn't compete with the MW SET but if I add a tube pre it gets a lot closer.
I'm thinking that I might try another tube preamp in conjunction with my Class D Audio amp. I used a tube preamp before but it didn't have typical tube sound so there were fewer benefits.

[blackraven]

I use the Grant Fidelity DAC-11 as a preamp and DAC with my CDA-254 and have used the Maverick D-1 (which has a more tube like and warmer sound than the DAC-11) with it as well. It's a good combination. Even my Dayton DTA-100a amp sounds much better when paired with the Maverick.

Feanor, I would consider an AVA T-8 preamp. Its all tube and is affordable. I wish I had bought it instead of the AVA Ultra II hybrid preamp. The T-8 has this nice romantic sound.

[Poultrygeist]

This Bottlehead Foreplay preamp can be found on A'gon for under $400 but it may go for as little as $350. I paid that for mine. There's nothing for twice the price that can come close. It's point to point rather than pcb which makes it simple to service or modify. The Bottlehead builders are an anally retentive bunch so you get very high build quality for their over the top efforts. The joy for them is in the build so they lose money on a sale just to finance another build.

[Ajani]

The Bottlehead builders are an anally retentive bunch so you get very high build quality for their over the top efforts. The joy for them is in the build so they lose money on a sale just to finance another build.

Then they are a really silly bunch of people. No need to make over-the-top profits, but HiFi is not a charity, they should make a reasonable return on their investments.

[Poultrygeist]

Lots of guys practice catch and release.

[blackraven]

That bottlehead preamp looks interesting. It looks like something to keep in mind for the future for my system in my basement or for my son.

[Poultrygeist]

BR,

It's obvious that you've never heard a Bottlehead.

[Ajani]

Lots of guys practice catch and release.

Sure. When they're fishing, but generally not as a means of running a business. The odd low price promotion to gain some market share and/or attention is one thing, but why should an established company lose money on sales? A quality product can be sold for a reaonable price.

I don't know about the finances at Bottlehead, but I have an issue when I hear persons complain about all the mainstream HiFi brands being overpriced then bring up brands run as a mere hobby of some millionaire (who could care less about making any profit on the hobby). I think those brands brainwash consumers into believing that they should not have to pay for a quality product, that manufacturers should make little or no profit on every sale. I don't support inflated prices, but persons should be able to make a decent return on their business. That is hard to do when others are giving away / underpricing goods for the hell of it...

[Poultrygeist]

Ajani,

You're not catching my drift. All Bottleheads are DIY kits and there's a huge community of support and loyalty unlike anything I've experienced in audio. Did you ever build a model airplane or car only to lose interest in it after you'd built it? There are many DIY'ers who just get off on the build. Bottlehead Inc. keeps introducing better mods and higher priced models to keep these guys happy. The basic designs have been around forever and are totally glitch free. Thousands have been built them and if you have any issues the support online is unreal. FWIW you have to be approved and with good reason to become a BH forum member. They really only cater to owners or prospective owners. Very cliquish.

The prices have steadily risen on their kits. 2a3 mono-block SET kits like mine go for around $1500. I was lucky to find mine on CL for $200 from a EE going through a divorce. The Foreplay Preamp is way better than the Conrad Johnson tube pre I had. They may look homespun but they kick serious ass.

[Ajani]

Ajani,

You're not catching my drift. All Bottleheads are DIY kits and there's a huge community of support and loyalty unlike anything I've experienced in audio. Did you ever build a model airplane or car only to lose interest in it after you'd built it? There are many DIY'ers who just get off on the build. Bottlehead Inc. keeps introducing better mods and higher priced models to keep these guys happy. The basic designs have been around forever and are totally glitch free. Thousands have been built them and if you have any issues the support online is unreal. FWIW you have to be approved and with good reason to become a BH forum member. They really only cater to owners or prospective owners. Very cliquish.

The prices have steadily risen on their kits. 2a3 mono-block SET kits like mine go for around $1500. I was lucky to find mine on CL for $200 from a EE going through a divorce. The Foreplay Preamp is way better than the Conrad Johnson tube pre I had. They may look homespun but they kick serious ass.

If what you're refering to are persons who sell a Bottlehead Amp that they assembled as a DIY project for a low price, that's cool. Nothing wrong with a DIYer building a kit, upgrading the parts and then selling it for a low price to finance a new project. The DIYer is just engaging in a hobby (not running a business).

However, If you mean that Bottlehead (the company) sells either their kits or completed amps (they will assemble them for you for a charge) at a loss, then that would not be good business.

[harley .guy07]

I have done more listening to my 440 and it seems to be really growing on me as to what this amp really brings to the table that other amps have not and at first I think I was in denial in to how good it really is since I could not think it could be possible at the price range it is in and thinking about other amps I have heard at price levels way above this amps and they don't hold a candle to it in any category. I will let you know as time goes by as to how burn in effects it or as I listen to different music and really get some time doing more critical listening.

[Enochrome]

I too will go the kit route as soon as I sell of my Jolida. I want to know that I have a good quality/ereputable product that I built myself that might even be unique by the looks. I have not decided yet to go the Decware Set Kit direction or the Bottlehead direction.

In relation to Ajani's last post: there is a guy on Audiogon selling a completed Bottlehead kit for $100 over the kit price itself, only because he had a professional build it for him for $250. That is lame, don't charge other people if your lazy arse cant build it yourself; consequently it has not sold.

What is your opinion on these kits for SET amp?

[blackraven]

Glad to hear that you are liking the amp Harley. I too have come to really appreciate my CDA-254 and my Grant Fidelity DAC-11 combo. In the last 5 hours of listening, the DAC-11 has broken in and warmed up. The combo with my Magnepan MMG's is very dynamic, transparent and resolving and I paid $180 for the used CDA-254.

[Ajani]

I have done more listening to my 440 and it seems to be really growing on me as to what this amp really brings to the table that other amps have not and at first I think I was in denial in to how good it really is since I could not think it could be possible at the price range it is in and thinking about other amps I have heard at price levels way above this amps and they don't hold a candle to it in any category. I will let you know as time goes by as to how burn in effects it or as I listen to different music and really get some time doing more critical listening.

Really good to know. Assuming I don't give up on audiophilia and settle down with a simple pair of active monitors, the SDS 440 or 470 are on my short list of potential amps.

[Feanor]

I use the Grant Fidelity DAC-11 as a preamp and DAC with my CDA-254 and have used the Maverick D-1 (which has a more tube like and warmer sound than the DAC-11) with it as well. It's a good combination. Even my Dayton DTA-100a amp sounds much better when paired with the Maverick.

Feanor, I would consider an AVA T-8 preamp. Its all tube and is affordable. I wish I had bought it instead of the AVA Ultra II hybrid preamp. The T-8 has this nice romantic sound.
The Van Alstine Transcendent Eight+ is doubtless a nice preamp. But new it's $1600 with remote control: used would be my only option.

[Poultrygeist]

For $1600 you get a printed circuit board?

[BoJonJovi]

I am in the same boat as the original poster. I have a few sets of Maggies around but nothing good to drive them. I came to this sight today as I had not visited in years probably. Anyway they are 4 ohm speakers and I just want something good to drive them and be done with it. I am in the 400 dollar price range as far as what I am willing to spend. I looked at the Yaqin as well as Sound Angel. have also been looking at old NAD's but I really do not have a clue as to what I really need to drive the Magnapans and get some great sound out of them. I am really not an audiophile but I do like good sound. Once I get get good sound I probably won't want to give my system a second thought for a few years. So again, looking for suggestions.

[Feanor]

I am in the same boat as the original poster. I have a few sets of Maggies around but nothing good to drive them. I came to this sight today as I had not visited in years probably. Anyway they are 4 ohm speakers and I just want something good to drive them and be done with it. I am in the 400 dollar price range as far as what I am willing to spend. I looked at the Yaqin as well as Sound Angel. have also been looking at old NAD's but I really do not have a clue as to what I really need to drive the Magnapans and get some great sound out of them. I am really not an audiophile but I do like good sound. Once I get get good sound I probably won't want to give my system a second thought for a few years. So again, looking for suggestions.
Welcome to AR Forums, BoJonJovi.

What do you mean by a "few sets of Maggies"? Do you have more than one pair? Which models?

Are you looking for an integrated amp or a power amp, (i.e. if the latter, you've got a preamp of some sort)?

[blackraven]

I am in the same boat as the original poster. I have a few sets of Maggies around but nothing good to drive them. I came to this sight today as I had not visited in years probably. Anyway they are 4 ohm speakers and I just want something good to drive them and be done with it. I am in the 400 dollar price range as far as what I am willing to spend. I looked at the Yaqin as well as Sound Angel. have also been looking at old NAD's but I really do not have a clue as to what I really need to drive the Magnapans and get some great sound out of them. I am really not an audiophile but I do like good sound. Once I get get good sound I probably won't want to give my system a second thought for a few years. So again, looking for suggestions.

With out knowing which model of Maggies you have, I would recommend at least 150 wpc at 4 ohm and high current if possible. You could get by with less power if you don't like to listen at moderately loud levels.

Consider one of the Class D Audio amp Kits if you are handy-

Class D Audio Build Your Own Class D Audio CDA Series Amplifier - Complete Kits - Amplifier Kits (http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits-1/complete-amplifiers-kits/build-your-own-cda-class-d-audioaamplifier.html)

Class D Audio CDA-254L Kit - Amplifier Kits (http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits-1/250w-x2-500w-x1-amp-large-power-supply-transformer.html)

Class D Audio SDS-254 Kit - Amplifier Kits (http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits-1/sds-254-kit.html)

These are just amps and you will need a preamp.

I am a Maggie person and have a pair of 1.6s but also a pair of MMG's that I run with a CDA-254 amp and a Grant Fidelity DAC-11 Preamp/DAC combo that sells for $325 and it sounds great. Deep controlled bass, air and transparency, good detail.

Grant Fidelity TubeDAC-11 D/A Converter (http://shop.grantfidelity.com/Grant-Fidelity-TubeDAC-11-D-A-Converter.html)

[BoJonJovi]

The more I read the more I have become interested in the Type D amps for their power/cost ratio. I talked to the Class D owner and he pretty much sold me. I am a small business owner so I really do try to deal with small businesses and the Class D Audio truly is a small mom/pop business in every sense. It is also in the USA so I liked that. The class D amps from Class D Audio seem like a no brainer for a plug, play and forget about for it for a few years or until you get the next wild hair in a few years like myself.Now I am thinking I may need a preamp to go with it. Any suggestions for an inexpensive preamp would be appreciated.

I find it interesting that sound audio has changed much over the past few years. Everything seems a little more efficient. After all my nosing around I am thinking of also buying a a small inexpensive class T amp and some small Infinity bookshelf speakers. For a couple hundred bucks that should make a very nice kitchen system. It has also led me to believe I need to clear out my SS Harmon Kardons and just go with these little Class D and Class T amps with good efficient speakers.
.
I do have three pairs of maggies. Two of the pairs are MG-1 so that is what this amp will be pushing. I want to thank everyone on this board that has led me to the Type D amps, I think it is very sound advice; no pun intended. I also thinnk I will be getting a little more than I had hoped for and be within what I was willing to spend. Again suggestions on an inexpensive preamp would be appreciated.

[blackraven]

. Again suggestions on an inexpensive preamp would be appreciated.[/QUOTE]

I would strongly consider the Grant Fidelity DAC-11 Preamp/DAC combo. It is a tube preamp-dac. After it breaks in it has a very nice slightly warmer sound. Initially it was a little on the bright side of neutral. I have one and run it with the CDA-254 Class D audio amp. It has usb, analog and digital inputs. It can be used as a Preamp, DAC or both. For $325 it is a very good deal.

If you want to go cheaper, take a look at the Maverick TubeMagic DAC-1 which is also a tube Preamp/DAC for $200. But you need to get the tube upgrade for an additional $20 and you need to replace the on board op amp for $10 to get really good sound. The Op amp replacement is easy and takes about 1 minute. The is no soldering. I bought one for my son and it has excellent sound.

Maverick Audio - TubeMagic D1 DAC (http://www.mav-audio.com/base/product/tube_magic_d1)

If you want a nice cheap digital amp to run with some efficient speakers, take a look at the Dayton DTA 100a amp. It is perfect for efficient speakers 6-8ohms. I have one driving a pair of Monitor Audio S1 speakers and it sounds great. The S1's are rated at 89dB so they are not real efficient.

Dayton Audio DTA-100a Class-T Digital Amplifier 50 WPC Provides Power To Computer Speakers, Bookshelf Speakers, Headphones, And More! 300-383 (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=300-383)

[BoJonJovi]

Blackraven thanks for your input. I think you are right on the mark for what I am looking for and the price range. I am seeing what Tom can do a 254 with the connections but not the case. I think I would like to build my own cabinet but use his connections so I don't have to go on the hunt for them. I also like the Grant Fidelity DAC -11 and the Tube Magic DAC. I will probably go with the Tube Magic and rebuild per your suggestions. Depending on what Tom can do for me I should be under 5 bills for the two.
For the cheaper kitchen system I am thinking of the
Dayton Audio APA150 or Lepai Tripath Class-T with the
Klipsch Icon V VB-15 or
Infinity Primus Two-way 6 1/2-Inch Bookshelf or
Dayton B652 6-1/2
For a preamp I was thinking of the Gemini PA7000 but I am not sure it makes sense as I could get the Tube Magic for a 100 more.
Oh well, it is all fun.

[Poultrygeist]

BoJon,

I have the Dayton APA150 which I use as a sub amp as it has switchable crossover controls. Unfortunately it is not so great playing in stereo. I also have the Dayton DTA-100 ( T-amp ) which sounds much better.

[blackraven]

I agree with the Evil Bird above. The DTA 100a is supposed to be a much better sounding amp. I have one and it sounds great. If you go with the Dayton speakers be sure to add some sound deadening material inside the cabinets. From what I have read is that this really improves the sound.

If you decide to go with the GF DAC-11 or the Maverick DAC-1, you may want to ask Tom at Class D audio if he can adjust the impedance of the 254 amp for a lower gain preamp. Both the GF and Mav have a lower gain and don't play as loud as the amp can go (its not a big deal if you are not using Magnapan's like me or you like to listen at ear bleeding levels). The Tube Magic is great for the price but the GF is better IMO. Both are very good for the money. Another option for a preamp is to check out used gear on augiogon.com (http://www.augiogon.com) There are some great deals on some nice used preamps. But if you want a DAC/Preamp combo the GF and Mav. are the way to go.

[BoJonJovi]

Thanks once again Poultrygeist and Blackraven. I think I will go with the GF but am also wondering if I have the skills to build a preamp. If I get my confidence up I will get the GF as well as do a build. It seems they are a much more involved build than the Class D amps.
I think I pulled the trigger to soon on the 254 so it is probably too late to have the impedance adjusted unless I want to send it back. Although I am not new to home audio I am new to electronics and matching equipment. So I will probably go with what ever you guys suggest.
Blackraven it sounds like you did not have yours adjusted so I assume it should be OK. If you think it is worth the time, money and effort I could trade up to the SDS or just build them both over time.

Thanks for the reviews of the Dayton amp. It sounds like the Dayton 100 with either the Dayton speakers or the Infinity speakers would be a good match.

You two have really been helpful to me and I really do appreciate it. It seems I am falling rapidly down this rabbit hole. Oh well, it should sound pretty good on the way down. I could actually use a good hobby as age has caught up with some of my outdoor exploits.

If you guys think I might have the skills to build a preamp, I am open to suggestions.

[blackraven]

You may be able to increase the gain on the GF DAC-11. Email Ian Grant and he can tell you if it can be done or they may be able to do it before they mail it out. You will love the combo.

[Poultrygeist]

With my Sure board amp it was almost plug and play. The only soldering was with the RCA's inputs and speaker terminals once I mounted it in the wooden case I built. I fashioned some stand offs with small bolts and nuts to raise it above the board and board connections were made with set screws already in the board.

[BoJonJovi]

With my Sure board amp it was almost plug and play. The only soldering was with the RCA's inputs and speaker terminals once I mounted it in the wooden case I built. I fashioned some stand offs with small bolts and nuts to raise it above the board and board connections were made with set screws already in the board.

Can you send me some links for components for the Sure amp?

[BoJonJovi]

I was floundering around this morning and ran across these links.
Oswald Mills Audio
Oswaldsmillaudio - Showroom (http://www.oswaldsmillaudio.com/Products/showroom.html#&panel1-1)

Favorite Low Watt Speakers (pictures welcomed) (http://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=105328.msg1076416#msg1076416)

I majored in Industrial Arts and taught shop for a few years. Anything wood pretty much peaks my interest.

[Feanor]

Can you send me some links for components for the Sure amp?
Sure's eBay page is HERE (http://stores.ebay.ca/Sure-Electronics?_trksid=p4340.l2563).

Personally I'm intrigued by their 2x250 wpc IRS2092-based amp, HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-Channel-250Watt-Class-D-Audio-Amplifier-Board-IRS2092-/250959205113?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6e5592f9#ht_3528wt_1061); (the IRS2092 is the same chip used in Class D Audio's offerings).

http://www.sure-electronics.net/Modders/AA-AB32291_1.jpg

With above you could get a Mean Well 48V switching power supply, HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MW-48V-DC-7-3A-350-4W-Meanwell-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-350-48-/350557333639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519ed86887#ht_3234wt_993). 48V won't give you quite full power which require 60V; also, some people object to switching power supplies, but others are quite happy with them.

http://www.sure-electronics.net/measure,tools/PS-SP11132_2.jpg

[blackraven]

BoJonJovi, the combination of the GF and 254 is a good one. The Maverick also mates well. You will not be disappointed by the sound. It plays plenty loud and is very detailed with excellent bass and control. The GF sounds slightly bright at first but after about 25hrs the tube settles down and things burn in and the sound warms up. You could do a lot worse for under $1000.

[BoJonJovi]

Sure's eBay page is HERE (http://stores.ebay.ca/Sure-Electronics?_trksid=p4340.l2563).

Personally I'm intrigued by their 2x250 wpc IRS2092-based amp, HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/2-Channel-250Watt-Class-D-Audio-Amplifier-Board-IRS2092-/250959205113?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a6e5592f9#ht_3528wt_1061); (the IRS2092 is the same chip used in Class D Audio's offerings).

http://www.sure-electronics.net/Modders/AA-AB32291_1.jpg

With above you could get a Mean Well 48V switching power supply, HERE (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MW-48V-DC-7-3A-350-4W-Meanwell-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-350-48-/350557333639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519ed86887#ht_3234wt_993). 48V won't give you quite full power which require 60V; also, some people object to switching power supplies, but others are quite happy with them.

http://www.sure-electronics.net/measure,tools/PS-SP11132_2.jpg

I was looking at those as well. I was not sure what Sure you meant but I had those bookmarked as well. When I first came across them I was a bit confused as many years ago there was I pretty descent audio company for turntable styluses. I think it was Schure. Heck they may still be around.

At any rate they are certainly in the right price range for me. Have you tried any of the cheap china tube amps or preamps from ebay?

[BoJonJovi]

I agree with the Evil Bird above. The DTA 100a is supposed to be a much better sounding amp. I have one and it sounds great. If you go with the Dayton speakers be sure to add some sound deadening material inside the cabinets. From what I have read is that this really improves the sound.

If you decide to go with the GF DAC-11 or the Maverick DAC-1, you may want to ask Tom at Class D audio if he can adjust the impedance of the 254 amp for a lower gain preamp. Both the GF and Mav have a lower gain and don't play as loud as the amp can go (its not a big deal if you are not using Magna's like me or you like to listen at ear bleeding levels). The Tube Magic is great for the price but the GF is better IMO. Both are very good for the money. Another option for a preamp is to check out used gear on augiogon.com (http://www.augiogon.com) There are some great deals on some nice used preamps. But if you want a DAC/Preamp combo the GF and Mav. are the way to go.

What are you doing for a sub with your maggies?

[blackraven]

For years I did not use a sub with my 1.6's or MMG's. I recently added a used Martin Logan Original Dynamo with my 1.6's to fill in the low frequencies below 35Hz. I have it set so that you can only really hear it on bass heavy music. The integration is seemless. I don't use a sub with my MMG's which are in my work out area in my basement. They are pushed out to the corners of the room and really put out deeper bass because of the placement and the CDA-254 amp. I have some sound absorbing material directly behind the speakers so that there is no boom.

The Martin Logan Dynamos (the non ported version's) are a great match for Maggies. They are very musical, fast subs that integrate well with Maggies. Used original Dynamo's go for about $275-$325. The new Dynamo 700 and 1000 models go for a bit more. The 500 model is ported, so stay away from it.

[Feanor]

I was looking at those as well. I was not sure what Sure you meant but I had those bookmarked as well. When I first came across them I was a bit confused as many years ago there was I pretty descent audio company for turntable styluses. I think it was Schure. Heck they may still be around.

Yep, that's Shure, HERE (http://www.shure.com/americas/). They still make cartridges & styli as well as headphones, microphones, etc....

http://www.shure.com/idc/groups/public/documents/webcontent/prod_img_m97xe_m.jpg


...
At any rate they are certainly in the right price range for me. Have you tried any of the cheap china tube amps or preamps from ebay?
No, but I'm tempted.

[Feanor]

For years I did not use a sub with my 1.6's or MMG's. I recently added a used Martin Logan Original Dynamo with my 1.6's to fill in the low frequencies below 35Hz. ...
Likewise: I run my MG 1.6QR full-range with my PSB Subsonic 5's low-pass set for it's minimum, about 50Hz. Integration is excellent; basically you never here the sub per se, but it's there for the deepest notes.

(I got my PSB from a local guy for $125 -- bargoon!)

[Poultrygeist]

This is a Sure board amp and Meanwell PS from Parts Express. PE no longer sells the Sure but I believe their new class D's are better and even cheaper. I used a plexiglass cover over the top and drilled holes over the fans since this picture was taken. I know it looks like an amp in a drawer ( chuckle, chuckle ) but form fits function.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/PB160005.JPG

[BoJonJovi]

This is a Sure board amp and Meanwell PS from Parts Express. PE no longer sells the Sure but I believe their new class D's are better and even cheaper. I used a plexiglass cover over the top and drilled holes over the fans since this picture was taken. I know it looks like an amp in a drawer ( chuckle, chuckle ) but form fits function.
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/PB160005.JPG

I actually like the amp in a drawer concept. I have often threatened to put a computer in a drawer, I think it would make everything easier for the geek in me. Power supply goes, boom pull the drawer out, upgrade some component, boom pull the drawer out. If all the usb ports were on the front with sound and mic jacks that would be great and very convenient. Same for the amp. A new board comes along from parts express, pull out the drawer, put the jacks on the back switches on the front. Ya I like it.

[Poultrygeist]

BoJon,

You said you like DIY and for much less than one sub you can build these two open baffle H-frames ( blue cubes ). The H-frame is nothing more than a 16x16x16 open ended cube with a 15 inch Eminence Alpha full range woofer mounted on a flat baffle at the mid section of the enclosure. The H-frames, unlike plodding subs, are fast and musical. These aren't something I made up so read Martin J.King's OB papers on the subject.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/P6030023.JPG

[BoJonJovi]

I have been so pleased with you Blackraven and Feanor. It seems your interests are similar. I dropped out of high end audio years ago (life happens). Now I am retired and have a renewed interest. I am finding that in high end audio today it appears one can have a beer budget and champagne tastes (really I am just cheap, call it thrifty). I suspect I will definitively be making that sub. How about the light wood speaker in the front, what is it's story? I have an old set of Maggies in a closet that I want to get running. I am thinking of making them into tri-fold room dividers so they don't look like speakers at all; similar to the lighter speaker behind your sub. I also have some old Jenson Electrostatic (purchased 4 decades ago) speakers I want to rebuild as the guts seem fine but the cabinets are pretty rough.
I tried to order the Grant Audio DAC last night but I could not get into their online store.
I also think I am going to order another cheap Class D board to put together.
I spent yesterday morning putting several dusty treasures on Ebay and Craigslist to fund this project. I sold a bike yesterday (new amp), I think my son sold a rifle for me (new amp and preamp), I am getting hits on a couple fly rods I put one ebay (tube amp kit). So I think I can get rid of stuff that has been collecting dust and start some new adventures. You guys have primed me.

[BoJonJovi]

BoJonJovi, the combination of the GF and 254 is a good one. The Maverick also mates well. You will not be disappointed by the sound. It plays plenty loud and is very detailed with excellent bass and control. The GF sounds slightly bright at first but after about 25hrs the tube settles down and things burn in and the sound warms up. You could do a lot worse for under $1000.

I went ahead and ordered the GF. I put a bunch of stuff on craigs list so I almost have it paid for by selling old dusty stuff. Thanks for your help. If I can sell some more old dusty stuff I think I will get another cheapo class D board.

[BoJonJovi]

Would this
Antek - AN-05T160 (http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=602)
work with this
Buffer 6N3+6Z1/6Z4 Tube Preamp AMP Amplifier Assembled Great Sound Quality NEW | eBay (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320809891047#ht_1818wt_1163)

And would this
Antek - AN-4435 (http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=623)
work with this
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices (http://www.ebay.com/itm/250959205113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3528wt_1228)

[Poultrygeist]

Open baffle speakers like the folding wings above require full range drivers with a Qts. above 5. Here's a link to building a pair using the Betsy 8 inch full range driver.

Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers (http://www.wildburroaudio.com/index.php)

[Feanor]

I think I can address this one; if anyone has better insight, please speak up ...


...
And would this
Antek - AN-4435 (http://www.antekinc.com/details.php?p=623)
work with this
eBay - New & used electronics, cars, apparel, collectibles, sporting goods & more at low prices (http://www.ebay.com/itm/250959205113?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649#ht_3528wt_1228)
With the Sure IRS2092-based module you need a full power supply not just a transformer. The amp module specs suggest 55 - 65 volts; (you'll need to be closer to 65V for full power). The power supply can be a switching mode power supply (SMPS) or a linear supply. If a linear supply, for say +/- 60 volts, you'll need a transformer capable of 60V/1.4 = 43V, that is, +43 volts and -43 volts with a common ground. Also I'd guess you should be looking for 8+ amps output capability. Thus model Antek PS-5N42 might be better.

The Sure Store seems to sell only SMPS; (they are self contained and don't need a transformer). If you want a linear supply you'll have to find one elsewhere.

Another Internet provider that I've heard of is Connexelectronic, HERE (http://connexelectronic.com/). They have a pretty good range of Class D and Class T amp modules as well as SMPS and linear power supplies, (but no transformers). So for the Sure module, Connexelectronics can provide their PS2-6C dual rail linear supply, HERE (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/72). You'd need at least their 63 volt, 10,000 uF version or better yet, the 71 volt, 18,000 uF ...

http://connexelectronic.com/images/PS10K50.JPG

[BoJonJovi]

Thanks
Looks like I should use what they recommend in the postings.

[BoJonJovi]

I think I can address this one; if anyone has better insight, please speak up ...


With the Sure IRS2092-based module you need a full power supply not just a transformer. The amp module specs suggest 55 - 65 volts; (you'll need to be closer to 65V for full power). The power supply can be a switching mode power supply (SMPS) or a linear supply. If a linear supply, for say +/- 60 volts, you'll need a transformer capable of 60V/1.4 = 43V, that is, +43 volts and -43 volts with a common ground. Also I'd guess you should be looking for 8+ amps output capability. Thus model Antek PS-5N42 might be better.

The Sure Store seems to sell only SMPS; (they are self contained and don't need a transformer). If you want a linear supply you'll have to find one elsewhere.

Another Internet provider that I've heard of is Connexelectronic, HERE (http://connexelectronic.com/). They have a pretty good range of Class D and Class T amp modules as well as SMPS and linear power supplies, (but no transformers). So for the Sure module, Connexelectronics can provide their PS2-6C dual rail linear supply, HERE (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/72). You'd need at least their 63 volt, 10,000 uF version or better yet, the 71 volt, 18,000 uF ...

http://connexelectronic.com/images/PS10K50.JPG

Ok, I went back and gave this post a closer read. So if I am reading it correct, for the Sure board I could get either the Connexelectronics 18000 uf or the Antec PS-5N42 but I would need a transformer with either one.
Or
I could go with the Mean Well 48V which would take care of both power and transformer.

Is that correct?

Could you tell me which might sound cleaner and provide optimum power and also recommend a transformer?

I think I am going to go ahead and order the Sure board as I do really want to get all my speakers up and running.

Also, do you know of any instructional videos or how to step by step instructions to assemble the 254 from Class-D audio? This is still the week point of these kits.

I have ordered a couple electronics books and have began reading them. I think I am going to be fine but it is totally different than wiring homes;>)
Thanks Feanor

[Feanor]

Ok, I went back and gave this post a closer read. So if I am reading it correct, for the Sure board I could get either the Connexelectronics 18000 uf or the Antec PS-5N42 but I would need a transformer with either one.
Or
I could go with the Mean Well 48V which would take care of both power and transformer.

Is that correct?

Just to be clear, the Antec PS-5N42 is a transformer. I pretty certain from the description that the Sure IRS2092 needs a full power supply. This would be a linear PS consisting of some thing like the Connex board + Antec PS-5N42. Class D Audio's Heavy Duty DC power supply HERE (http://classdaudio.com/power-sppplies/heavy-duty-dc-power-supply.html), plus the Antec would also work.

Reading the Sure IRS2092 blurb more carefully I see that they recommend +-50 to +-65 VDC so the 48 VDC Mean Well would be marginal.


...
Could you tell me which might sound cleaner and provide optimum power and also recommend a transformer?

I think I am going to go ahead and order the Sure board as I do really want to get all my speakers up and running.

Also, do you know of any instructional videos or how to step by step instructions to assemble the 254 from Class-D audio? This is still the week point of these kits.

I have ordered a couple electronics books and have began reading them. I think I am going to be fine but it is totally different than wiring homes;>)
Thanks Feanor
I really don't know whether the switching or linear supply would sound better. Purists do lean to a linear supply, however.

To be "safe", just go with the Class D Audio CDA-254L kit, Class D Audio CDA-254L Kit - Amplifier Kits (http://classdaudio.com/amplifier-kits-1/250w-x2-500w-x1-amp-large-power-supply-transformer.html), or the SDS-254 kit. It comes with adequate instructions to connect it up.

[BoJonJovi]

I already got the CDA 254 it just arrived, I didn't get the complet kit so I am waiting for parts from PE.

Anyway, thanks. Your helping my understanding greatly.

I still may do the the Sure board or one from Parts Extress. It appears the sure board has a little less distortion which is why I kinda came back to it. However, you start playing the numbers like the Sure board + power supply + .transformer and the Class-D audio looks pretty good as package.

I started kinda thinking the same thing on the china tube amp. By the time I get the components to make it run I would be into the cost of a Maverick, so why bother.

At any rate, thanks for your patients. I guess everybody has to start with minimum knowledge and build. I am laying down bricks.

[blackraven]

You won't be sorry that you got the CDA-254. It has crystal clear sound and is very dynamic. I tried it with my $2000 preamp and Magnepan QR1.6's and the sound was excellent. It was not quite as good as my $2200Parasound A21 but it had less grain than the A21. The GF DAC-11 is a good fit with it. I would recommend some Audio Quest Coral IC's from here- http://hcmaudio.com/comp.asp?compID=1208 These Cables have a warmer sound and really pair well. I have a pair of these and it is a good match.

[BoJonJovi]

On this rather quick to road to learning it appears that Class D Audio really is the way to go. I could be sucked in by a cheap board but it is the components that make it run that are expensive.

I do have another question on the sue board and it is more just to help me understand.
The MW 48V DC 7.3A 350.4W Meanwell Switching Power Supply NES-350-48

MW 48V DC 7.3A 350.4W Meanwell Switching Power Supply NES-350-48 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MW-48V-DC-7-3A-350-4W-Meanwell-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-350-48-/350557333639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519ed86887#ht_3232wt_1171)

Could give me 65v if I used two together in series but I need a 600w unit so the cheaper 350.4 w would not work even though in series it would give me 65v. Is that kinda correct? At this point I am just trying to learn and increase my understanding.

DIY Audio Projects (http://diyAudioProjects.com)

[Feanor]

...
I do have another question on the sue board and it is more just to help me understand.
The MW 48V DC 7.3A 350.4W Meanwell Switching Power Supply NES-350-48

MW 48V DC 7.3A 350.4W Meanwell Switching Power Supply NES-350-48 (http://www.ebay.ca/itm/MW-48V-DC-7-3A-350-4W-Meanwell-Switching-Power-Supply-NES-350-48-/350557333639?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item519ed86887#ht_3232wt_1171)


Could give me 65v if I used two together in series but I need a 600w unit so the cheaper 350.4 w would not work even though in series it would give me 65v. Is that kinda correct? At this point I am just trying to learn and increase my understanding.

DIY Audio Projects (http://diyAudioProjects.com)
Sorry, Bo. Now you're getting beyond my depth.

Unless you can find Mean Well's own documentation, or somebody at DIYaudio who's done it, I would not assume that two MW 48V's can be used in series.

[Feanor]

On this rather quick to road to learning it appears that Class D Audio really is the way to go. I could be sucked in by a cheap board but it is the components that make it run that are expensive.
...
That's right. Personally if for some reason I didn't want to go for a Class D Audio kit, I look to Connexelectronics.

Check out their IRS2092 Stereo Amplifier (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139); judging by the large on-board capacitors, my guess would be that this unit needs only a transformer. Annoyingly, there is no link to documentation, but you could contact them -- as I recall, the main guy there has a presence at
diyAudio.com though I don't recall his moniker.

Or if you'd like to try a Tripath-based amp, their TA3020 Audio Amplifier v3c (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_42/products_id/54) module definitely includes an on-board PS and needs only a transformer according to the linked documentations.

http://connexelectronic.com/images/TA3020v3c.JPG

[blackraven]

I would not think twice about the decision to go with the Class D Audio Kit. There are enough people who own them and almost 200 pages on the Audiocircle forum documenting how good these units sound. Plus there are 3 people here including myself who have them and like them.

[BoJonJovi]

I would not think twice about decision to go with Class D Audio Kit. re are enough people who own m and almost 200 pages on Audiocircle forum documenting good se units sound. Plus re are 3 people here including myself who have m and like m.


I got my parts from parts express so I will start slowly putting it together.
I am also taking a few classes so finals are coming so it may actually take me a while. I also have to build the case so I will have to monkey around with that a bit. That might actually be the most time consuming. I have some marble tile so I was thinking of using it for the top and bottom and making some wood sides and insetting a metal back into the wood so I can easily drill holes and mount hardware.

[BoJonJovi]

That's right. Personally if for some reason I didn't want to go for a Class D Audio kit, I look to Connexelectronics.

Check out ir IRS2092 Stereo Amplifier (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139); judging by large on-board capacitors, my guess would be that this unit needs only a transformer. Annoyingly, re is no link to documentation, but you could contact m -- as I recall, main guy re has a presence at
diyAudio.com though I don't recall his moniker.

Or if you'd like to try a Tripath-based amp, ir TA3020 Audio Amplifier v3c (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_42/products_id/54) module definitely includes an on-board PS and needs only a transformer according to linked documentations.

http://connexelectronic.com/images/TA3020v3c.JPG
Regarding IRS2092 connex it does need an auxilary power supply. Here is re reply to my email.

" IRS2092 Stereo amplifier Connexelectronic (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139) can be configured with few diferent output power levels strarting 2x150W on 4R to 600W on 4R. output power on 8R will be a little more than half.
for a system which will deliver 2x250W i recommend Connexelectronic (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139) 2x250W version if speakers impedance is 8R or 400W, better 600W if impedance is 8R. power supply should be rated at at least total power of amplifier, and can be SMPS500R or SMPS500QR, better SMPS800R or SMPS800RE.
since is a class D amplifier, switching amplifier, a SMPS is more suitable than a mains transformer plus rectifier bridge, capacitors because of lack of regulation for this type of power supply compared with regulated SMPS."

I am guessing this would work with IRS2092 board Sure as well. I may be getting eir connex power supply or ClassD audio power supply as I got trigger happy and bid on Sure. Of course I got it. So I can eir eat 58 bucks or go ahead and build it out. Building it would probably be better way to go.
I think I could use Class D power supply for $60. Class D uses Antek 4435 which costs $45 and I got $58 in Sure IRS 2092. So If I am correct with se parts it would cost about $155 plus hardware to get it going. Really not bad in whole scheme of things. I think I will get my Class-D Audio 254 up and running first.

[Feanor]

Regarding IRS2092 connex it does need an auxilary power supply. Here is re reply to my email.

" IRS2092 Stereo amplifier Connexelectronic (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139) can be configured with few diferent output power levels strarting 2x150W on 4R to 600W on 4R. output power on 8R will be a little more than half.
for a system which will deliver 2x250W i recommend Connexelectronic (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/cPath/39_41/products_id/139) 2x250W version if speakers impedance is 8R or 400W, better 600W if impedance is 8R. power supply should be rated at at least total power of amplifier, and can be SMPS500R or SMPS500QR, better SMPS800R or SMPS800RE.
since is a class D amplifier, switching amplifier, a SMPS is more suitable than a mains transformer plus rectifier bridge, capacitors because of lack of regulation for this type of power supply compared with regulated SMPS."

I am guessing this would work with IRS2092 board Sure as well. I may be getting eir connex power supply or ClassD audio power supply as I got trigger happy and bid on Sure. Of course I got it. So I can eir eat 58 bucks or go ahead and build it out. Building it would probably be better way to go.
I think I could use Class D power supply for $60. Class D uses Antek 4435 which costs $45 and I got $58 in Sure IRS 2092. So If I am correct with se parts it would cost about $155 plus hardware to get it going. Really not bad in whole scheme of things. I think I will get my Class-D Audio 254 up and running first.
Well I guess you've got to take Connex word for it re. the PS. It is a good point that their SMPS are regulated whereas the linear, transformer+bridge+capacitor supplies are not -- although the Class D Audio amps work fine with a linear supply.

I would be inclined to go with Connexelectronics SMPS supply over the 48V Mean Well, e.g. the SMPS500R (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/118), with the 60V option.

[BoJonJovi]

Well I guess you've got to take Connex word for it re. the PS. It is a good point that their SMPS are regulated whereas the linear, transformer+bridge+capacitor supplies are not -- although the Class D Audio amps work fine with a linear supply.

I would be inclined to go with Connexelectronics SMPS supply over the 48V Mean Well, e.g. the SMPS500R (http://connexelectronic.com/product_info.php/products_id/118), with the 60V option.

Once again Feanor I think your right on the mark. It seems everyone who sells the IRS2092 recommends a SMPS. The one from connex also allows me to buy 1 component instead of two SMPS in series or a Power Supply and Transformer. I also get out cheaper and will probably have a very nice amp.
I was thinking of the Class-D Audio Power Supply to hedge my investment thinking that If I did not like the IRS I could buy the Class-D Audio amp and would have their trio.
You have helped me rethink that idea and I think put me back on track. Actually, the Connex SMPS and the IRS probably will turn out to be a pretty good deal.
I studied my beginner electronics book a bit more yesterday. I am understanding more.
I also took a good look at the Class-D Audio literature and amp and think I understand where all the connections go. So I think I am in good shape there. I should have more time to build it out the latter part of next week.

[Feanor]

Once again Feanor I think your right on the mark. It seems everyone who sells the IRS2092 recommends a SMPS. The one from connex also allows me to buy 1 component instead of two SMPS in series or a Power Supply and Transformer. I also get out cheaper and will probably have a very nice amp.
I was thinking of the Class-D Audio Power Supply to hedge my investment thinking that If I did not like the IRS I could buy the Class-D Audio amp and would have their trio.
You have helped me rethink that idea and I think put me back on track. Actually, the Connex SMPS and the IRS probably will turn out to be a pretty good deal.
I studied my beginner electronics book a bit more yesterday. I am understanding more.
I also took a good look at the Class-D Audio literature and amp and think I understand where all the connections go. So I think I am in good shape there. I should have more time to build it out the latter part of next week.
A great source for beginner audio electronics info is the Elliott Sound Products site, HERE (http://sound.westhost.com/). Check out the 'Articles' section, (here (http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm)); this is remarkably comprehensive set of articles on the subject. Rod Elliott assumes only a fairly minimal electronics knowledge -- you generally don't have to work through the formulas he provides.

You might start with the "Beginners' Luck - The beginners' Guide to ..." section in Articles. You could start with his "Amplifier Basics - How Amps Work" article, here (http://sound.westhost.com/amp-basics.htm). There are plenty of other great articles. Another very informative article is "Power Supply Design", here (http://sound.westhost.com/power-supplies.htm).

[BoJonJovi]

A great source for beginner audio electronics info is the Elliott Sound Products site, HERE (http://sound.westhost.com/). Check out the 'Articles' section, (here (http://sound.westhost.com/articles.htm)); this is remarkably comprehensive set of articles on the subject. Rod Elliott assumes only a fairly minimal electronics knowledge -- you generally don't have to work through the formulas he provides.

You might start with the "Beginners' Luck - The beginners' Guide to ..." section in Articles. You could start with his "Amplifier Basics - How Amps Work" article, here (http://sound.westhost.com/amp-basics.htm). There are plenty of other great articles. Another very informative article is "Power Supply Design", here (http://sound.westhost.com/power-supplies.htm).


That was a really cool thing to do.
Thank You.

[Feanor]

That was a really cool thing to do.
Thank You.
Your welcome! (You might give me a green chicklet :biggrin5:)

[harley .guy07]

well my update to my experience with the class d 440 amp is that it has gotten even better after break in and some time on the amp. I have never heard my Dynaudio's sound this good! they are dynamic, smooth and balanced in a way that I have never experienced them and this amp has proven to be way more than the price of the unit could ever normally give a system. I would put it up there with way more expensive gear. To say the least I am very happy with what it has done in my system. Oh and the lack of SS grain is a huge bonus in my book.

[Feanor]

well my update to my experience with the class d 440 amp is that it has gotten even better after break in and some time on the amp. I have never heard my Dynaudio's sound this good! they are dynamic, smooth and balanced in a way that I have never experienced them and this amp has proven to be way more than the price of the unit could ever normally give a system. I would put it up there with way more expensive gear. To say the least I am very happy with what it has done in my system. Oh and the lack of SS grain is a huge bonus in my book.
Thanks for your update, Harley. The results from you SDS-440 are consistent with those from my SDS-258.

Our results belie the assertion that only SET gives clear, transparent sound.

[blackraven]

I am probably going to buy an SDS amp some time in the future unless I decide to buy the new AVA SS amp that sounds like a tube amp. But at $600 vs $2K the SDS is very appealing. I am going to do a review on the new AVA amp soon.

[harley .guy07]

I am not sure what the CDA series sound like compared to the SDS series but I am very pleased with my purchase of the SDS series and I would put it up there with about anything.

[blackraven]

I am not sure what the CDA series sound like compared to the SDS series but I am very pleased with my purchase of the SDS series and I would put it up there with about anything.

My Parasound sounds better than the CDA except that the Parasound has a little hint of grain and the CDA does not. Treble and bass also sound better on the Parasound. How ever the difference is not night and day. The Parasound plays louder too.

[BoJonJovi]

:out:
Your welcome! (You might give me a green chicklet :biggrin5:)

[BoJonJovi]

:out::out:
Your welcome! (You might give me a green chicklet :biggrin5:)

[Feanor]

:out:
Oh, never mind. Bo. But for future reference, I was referring to the ability to tag approval of a post -- check out the little icons at the lower left of the posting.

[BoJonJovi]

LOL I am sorry I made a chicklet, faux pas.
I guess it is the small things in life, but that made my day.
Yes, I will give you a chicklet.
A few years ago when I was working in a more social setting, I would ask people if they wanted a piece of gum. I would then, straight faced, give them one chicklet; I loved the faces I would get.

Hey, I will probably start putting things together this weekend. Do you guys have suggestions for PC sound cards or getting a good clean 2.1 or 2.0 signal to my speakers from my PC.
I have been looking at the
M-Audio US41750 Audiophile 192 Hi-def Aud Card and the
ASUS Xonar Essence ST
The Xonar reviews look great but if the M-Audio would give me what I need I would prefer to spend 80 as opposed to 200. On the other hand it will probably be used for years so I could take a big gulp, pony up and get the Xonar.
This is also kinda new to me. Ya I have built computers and serviced them, but "quality" sound from a computer is totally new to me. I guess there are some good USB sound cards.

[Feanor]

LOL I am sorry I made a chicklet, faux pas.
I guess it is the small things in life, but that made my day.
Yes, I will give you a chicklet.
A few years ago when I was working in a more social setting, I would ask people if they wanted a piece of gum. I would then, straight faced, give them one chicklet; I loved the faces I would get.

Hey, I will probably start putting things together this weekend. Do you guys have suggestions for PC sound cards or getting a good clean 2.1 or 2.0 signal to my speakers from my PC.
I have been looking at the
M-Audio US41750 Audiophile 192 Hi-def Aud Card and the
ASUS Xonar Essence ST
The Xonar reviews look great but if the M-Audio would give me what I need I would prefer to spend 80 as opposed to 200. On the other hand it will probably be used for years so I could take a big gulp, pony up and get the Xonar.
This is also kinda new to me. Ya I have built computers and serviced them, but "quality" sound from a computer is totally new to me. I guess there are some good USB sound cards.
Thank you! BoJonJovi!

Just so we're clear, do you intend to use the analog outputs from the soundcard, or S/PDIF to an external DAC?

I haven't heard either, but the Asus Xonar Essence enjoys the the big reputation at the moment. If I were intending to use the analog outputs, I'd just go for the Essence; (ST for PCI or STX for PCI Express). The Essence ST/STX claim to have excellent noise rejection and also have socketed opamps so you can swap.

http://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/zCDHPnfR1jymHK2f/P_500.jpg

If I were going to use only the S/PDIF digital output, I might be tempted to go for the cheaper M-Audio Audiophile 192. Right now I use an older model M-Audio, the Revolution 7.1, using just the S/PDIF coax output; it works very well feeding my external DAC.

[BoJonJovi]

Oh, never mind. Bo. But for future reference, I was referring to the ability to tag approval of a post -- check out the little icons at the lower left of the posting.

That has put a smile on my face all day. Yes, I am a bojohn. I prove it everyday. As my son says "you crack yourself up".

[BoJonJovi]

Thank you! BoJonJovi!

Just so we're clear, do you intend to use the analog outputs from the soundcard, or S/PDIF to an external DAC?

I haven't heard either, but the Asus Xonar Essence enjoys the the big reputation at the moment. If I were intending to use the analog outputs, I'd just go for the Essence; (ST for PCI or STX for PCI Express). The Essence ST/STX claim to have excellent noise rejection and also have socketed opamps so you can swap.

http://www.asus.com/websites/global/products/zCDHPnfR1jymHK2f/P_500.jpg

If I were going to use only the S/PDIF digital output, I might be tempted to go for the cheaper M-Audio Audiophile 192. Right now I use an older model M-Audio, the Revolution 7.1, using just the S/PDIF coax output; it works very well feeding my external DAC.

It will be going into the Grant Audio DAC. I can go either way RCA or S/PDIF or digital. It will be traveling the Grant Audio/Class-D 254/Magnepan route. The Grant Audio has S/pdif, Digital Toslink, RCA, and USB. I just want sound connection/card that will maximize the sound without being a weak link.

[Feanor]

It will be going into the Grant Audio DAC. I can go either way RCA or S/PDIF or digital. It will be traveling the Grant Audio/Class-D 254/Magnepan route. The Grant Audio has S/pdif, Digital Toslink, RCA, and USB. I just want sound connection/card that will maximize the sound without being a weak link.
Using the Grand Fidelity or any external DAC, the way to go is coaxial S/PDIF from the sound card to the DAC. I'm tempted to say that the M-Audio would work very well this way -- unless, BTW, you computer happens to have a S/PDIF output built in. In that case, try the built-in connector first to see if you like well enough.

According to some sources the coax connecting the computer to the DAC ought to very short, i.e. <1 foot, or very long i.e. 30+ feet. This is alleged to reduce jitter caused by any impedance mismatch the might exist between the two. I usse a 30' coax between my M-Audio Rev 71. and my "El Cheapo" DAC; it works very well indeed.

[BoJonJovi]

Oddly, when I got the Grant Audio and hooked it up to the computer via the digital output on the computer I got garble, then the sound card stopped working completely. I may need to just reset it. I recently built a different computer using a Sabertooth 990FX board. The sound from it was much better that the sound from the other computer I want to stream from; that actually kinda started this whole quest.
Currently I am running the system from my telephone, which is doing a surprisingly good job.
I will probably get the M-Audio and the difference can fund some other upgrade.

[BoJonJovi]

Blackraven
Do you have any thoughts, biases, opinions, preferences... on PC soundcards?

[Poultrygeist]

I'm not so up on all this but why would you need a fancy sound card if you had an outboard DAC?

[BoJonJovi]

I'm not so up on all this but why would you need a fancy sound card if you had an outboard DAC?

You make a good point.
My card went out this past week; Murphys law I guess. I am going to replace it, so I thought I may as well get a good one. I also seem to move computers form room to room and in and of use. The computer I plan to use for streaming is the one that went out but prior to it going out I could see a significance difference in it and the on board card on my newer mother board.
For 80 bucks M_Audio isn't that much more than an entry level card.

[Feanor]

I'm not so up on all this but why would you need a fancy sound card if you had an outboard DAC?
Don't know about "need", but the two most common methods of getting the digital signal to the DAC are (1) USB, and (2) S/PDIF.

Of the two, S/PDIF was considered the more jitter-free method. That's not so much the case any more with the advent of asynchronous USB methods which, however, vary in effectiveness and are still not prevalent in lower cost DACs.

Some motherboards come with S/PDIF output, some do not. Of those that do, some have only optical (Tosklink) connectors which are considered very jitter prone except for very short distances. Coax is better and maybe best over longer distances, i.e. 30+ feet. If your computer doesn't have built-in S/PDIF (or it doesn't work or you don't consider it good quality), then a soundcard with S/PDIF output is the other option.

[Poultrygeist]

I used a USB connection with my Audio GD NFB-11 DAC and now use a USB with my Marantz SA8004 SACD player which has an accessible DAC. Both work well without a fancy sound card through USB.

[harley .guy07]

I know a lot of people prefer the results of s/pdif over usb. In the last year or so it seems there have much more concentration on companies using usb for computer audio and the newer dacs have usb inputs that can handle up to 24 bit 192 klh operation for super high quality digital music. I could have seen usb being not the way to go a few years ago but now with the many options available I would say it would be more than up to the task.

[BoJonJovi]

Cool. I fiddle farted around with my card yesterday and reset it in a different slot and got it going. The Optical still does not work. I think I will forego the card for a week or two and concentrate on getting the amp up and running. I did get the Grant Audio DAC up and running yesterday and alll I can say is wow. What a huge difference it made to this system. It was being run from the questionable card through a very old HK AVR 20 (probably goes on ebay for about 20 bucks) and I have to say it sounded very good. IU have probably put better receivers in the goodwill box.
I am looking forward to getting this built out over the next week. I think Poultrygeist and Feanor have nurtured an addiction. I am continuing to read my book, Getting Started in Electronics. That has greatly added to my knowledge and is a pretty simple read. At least I know what a transformer, capacitor, and ohms really mean now :>) Can't say I really had a grasp on that two weeks ago. I have really appreciated the patience of you guys and your continuing input. I know my questions seem pretty odd and uneducated at times. I am working on that.

[blackraven]

Blackraven
Do you have any thoughts, biases, opinions, preferences... on PC soundcards?

I use to be up on all the latest and greatest computer gear as I have built a few high end systems for my son. The last system I built has a Creative Labs XFI Titanium Fatal1ty Champion series card that I picked up for a huge discount. It sounds great but is more for gaming.

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium Fatal1ty Champion Series Sound Card w/ I/O | Creative Labs Online Store (http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-Fatal1ty/M/B001BDPLJA.htm)

This sound card is supposed to be excellet for audio with audiophile components-

Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Titanium HD PCIe Sound Card powered by THX TruStudio Pro | Creative Labs Online Store (http://us.store.creative.com/Creative-Sound-Blaster-XFi-Titanium-HD/M/B0041OUA38.htm)


The Asus Xonar Essence is excellent as well from what I have read-
ASUS Xonar Essence STX Sound card (http://www.google.com/products/catalog?hl=en&q=asus+xonar+essence+stx&ix=sea&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.,cf.osb&biw=1280&bih=705&um=1&ie=UTF-8&tbm=shop&cid=12150061145821736264&sa=X&ei=iYakT4O_GYXe9ATW7-TAAw&ved=0CJoBEPMCMAE)

By the way, I am glad to hear that you like the Grant Fidelity. It is a bang for the buck piece of kit!

[BoJonJovi]

It dawned on me today that if I use the 254 as my amp then I have no port for a subwoofer. Any thoughts or suggestions?

[JoeE SP9]

It depends on the subwoofer. If your sub (s) has line level in and out connectors use them for the pass through from preamp to power amp.

[blackraven]

It dawned on me today that if I use the 254 as my amp then I have no port for a subwoofer. Any thoughts or suggestions?

Use the solid state output of the Grant Fidelity for your sub out. The Tube out and SS out are always on. Also, if your sub has speaker line inputs you can hook directly to the amp or daily chain off your speaker terminals on the speakers..

[BoJonJovi]

Use the solid state output of the Grant Fidelity for your sub out. The Tube out and SS out are always on. Also, if your sub has speaker line inputs you can hook directly to the amp or daily chain off your speaker terminals on the speakers..
Excellent!!
My sub is powered and it does have RCA and speaker line inputs. Would you suggest one over the other or does it matter much?

[blackraven]

Excellent!!
My sub is powered and it does have RCA and speaker line inputs. Would you suggest one over the other or does it matter much?


The sound will be the same which ever you use but there will be less wires with the RCA. You may need a Y splitter to connect to your sub though.

[Poultrygeist]

I would go with a line level connection to the sub. It's nice that the Grant has two outputs that can be used at the same time. I thought you had to select one or the other.

[BoJonJovi]

I would go with a line level connection to the sub. It's nice that the Grant has two outputs that can be used at the same time. I thought you had to select one or the other.

I finally got my Class D and the Grant going together.
Fantastico!!!!

I wanted to make sure I thanked you Poultrygeist and Raven for your recommendations, help, support. You two have been awesome!

My next project is to get the Sure amp going but I am still waiting for power supply from connex.

Then I will turn my attention to another room and another system.

Anyway
Thank you both very much.
It has definitively been worth the journey; and the path continues.

[Poultrygeist]

You're welcome. How bout some pictures?

[blackraven]

BoJonJovi, I'm glad that you like the combo. Now just sit back and enjoy the music and have a beer or 2 for me!

Larry

[BoJonJovi]

Sorry, I am still learning how to post. I hope the picture comes out.

https://plus.google.com/photos/102982519747149205425/albums/5744105415578218961/5744105424234379282

The bad thing is now that I can hear things a little better, I have become Mr Discerning. I find myself picking my speakers apart. For 80 percent of what I listen to they are very good. For Rock and Roll, not so good or anything with a lot going on. For voices, piano, light jazz, most alternative, blues they are great; which is good since that is what I listen to most. Miles Davis is magnificent as is Paul Desmond -Cool Imagination, Lisa Hamilton-Seduction, Amel Larrieux-Get Up and on and on. I find music that I did not care much for is suddenly great.

But Alas, one is always looking for the Holy Grail. Little does one realize that the search itself is the Holy Grail. I am hoping to start making some in the next month or two.
I don't know if I can improve on what I have but I would like to try.
Heck, I might just learn something.

I still have a pair of old Jenson Electrostatics I can put on the end of the wires. I am not sure what I got laying around here that might be great.

[BoJonJovi]

Looks like the picture did not come out. I put it on Picassa and uploaded it so it would give me a URL. Then used the attach picture icon. Nada. There must be an easier way or something I am missing.

[BoJonJovi]

Ok I found the how to attach photos link. I was making it too complicated.

I like the way the amp case came out. It was a pain but the redo would be a snap compared to this proto. It was much harder than the actual amp build. Probably due to my typical woodworking tools being inaccessible at the moment. It was basically built using a compound miter saw and that was pretty much it.

I pulled out my old Janszen speakers that I purchased 40 years ago at age 14; I washed a dish or two for those. Frankly I am amazed at how good they sound all things considered. They have been reconed twice and have sat unused for nearly 15 years. I think they deserve a rebuild.

Arthur Janszen was one of the pioneers of electrostatic speakers and designed the KLH Nine electrostatics. I could never afford those. Probably still cant. I was pleased to find Davd Janszen his son started making speakers in 2005. I would love to hear them. I wrote him for suggestions for a rebuild and he responded within the morning. He gave some good things to consider. That was pretty cool.

You can check the new
Janszen Speakers (http://www.janszenloudspeaker.com/index.htm) out.The website provides a good history of electrostatics the precursor to the Magnepans.