In search for disappearing speakers

[Dutchy]

Hi all,

Just registered because I have some questions concerning speakers.

At the moment I listen to a set Quad 22L, driven by a renewed and modified Quad 33/303. The sound of the 22L's is one word: brilliant!
But... I'm longing for a more dynamic soundstage, three dimensional, holographic, a YOU ARE THERE experience because the speakers completely disappeared.

After a while of researching reviews, articles and so, as well as listening to some speakers, I discovered that standmount speakers (monitors, bookshelves) could be the solution.

Now there are a lot of brands producing high-end standmount speakers. And each set of speakers has its own characteristics - musical, analytical, emotional, refined and so on. Interesting brands for me: Sonus Faber, Xavian, JM Lab, Diapason, Master Three and Reference 3A.

Somehow I'm most fascinated by the 'classic' models of Reference 3a: Royal Master, Studio Master, Master Control MMC and MM De Capo. In the next weeks I have a chance to listen to the first three mentioned.

Therefor I would welcome opinions and advices concerning Reference 3A speakers. Please share your experience!

Besides I'm open to any suggestion about speakers that excel in dynamic, 3D, holographic sound.

Please be invited in my search for the best disappearing speakers.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

[Hyfi]

Not sure what your budget is but there are a lot of people raving about the Dynaudio C1s.
http://www.fototime.com/71C968969F8B745/standard.jpg

[frenchmon]

Hi all,

Just registered because I have some questions concerning speakers.

At the moment I listen to a set Quad 22L, driven by a renewed and modified Quad 33/303. The sound of the 22L's is one word: brilliant!
But... I'm longing for a more dynamic soundstage, three dimensional, holographic, a YOU ARE THERE experience because the speakers completely disappeared.

After a while of researching reviews, articles and so, as well as listening to some speakers, I discovered that standmount speakers (monitors, bookshelves) could be the solution.

Now there are a lot of brands producing high-end standmount speakers. And each set of speakers has its own characteristics - musical, analytical, emotional, refined and so on. Interesting brands for me: Sonus Faber, Xavian, JM Lab, Diapason, Master Three and Reference 3A.

Somehow I'm most fascinated by the 'classic' models of Reference 3a: Royal Master, Studio Master, Master Control MMC and MM De Capo. In the next weeks I have a chance to listen to the first three mentioned.

Therefor I would welcome opinions and advices concerning Reference 3A speakers. Please share your experience!

Besides I'm open to any suggestion about speakers that excel in dynamic, 3D, holographic sound.

Please be invited in my search for the best disappearing speakers.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

I've not heard the R-3A but have heard nothing but great things about that speaker! I am waiting for the day I can hear one. I hear that tweeter in that speaker is outstanding!

If LeRoy can chime in here, he may be able to give you some information on that speaker. I think he has had a extensive listen to it.

[LeRoy]

Hi all,

Just registered because I have some questions concerning speakers.

At the moment I listen to a set Quad 22L, driven by a renewed and modified Quad 33/303. The sound of the 22L's is one word: brilliant!
But... I'm longing for a more dynamic soundstage, three dimensional, holographic, a YOU ARE THERE experience because the speakers completely disappeared.

After a while of researching reviews, articles and so, as well as listening to some speakers, I discovered that standmount speakers (monitors, bookshelves) could be the solution.

Now there are a lot of brands producing high-end standmount speakers. And each set of speakers has its own characteristics - musical, analytical, emotional, refined and so on. Interesting brands for me: Sonus Faber, Xavian, JM Lab, Diapason, Master Three and Reference 3A.

Somehow I'm most fascinated by the 'classic' models of Reference 3a: Royal Master, Studio Master, Master Control MMC and MM De Capo. In the next weeks I have a chance to listen to the first three mentioned.

Therefor I would welcome opinions and advices concerning Reference 3A speakers. Please share your experience!

Besides I'm open to any suggestion about speakers that excel in dynamic, 3D, holographic sound.

Please be invited in my search for the best disappearing speakers.

THANKS IN ADVANCE!

Well, I have extensively listened to the current line of Reference 3A speakers- Episodes and Grand Veena models. I have not heard the R3A classic models you are currently interested in.

Of the R3A speakers attributes that I prefer are it's tonality, easy to drive, and soundstage. I have heard these speakers with both SS and tube amplification and each with a tube CDP and non tube CDP. I think they sounded best with tubes somewhere in the audio chain ( I even thought this before I recently bought a tubed integrated),

I can listen to the R3A speaker and simply slide into my listening chair and all the analyzing just shuts down automatically without me even having to think about it. But do they disappear or go 3D like you are looking for? Nope, not in my opinion but when you have tonality, balance, detail, timing, and are easy to drive, separation of voices/instruments then I could forgive that they don't totally disappear.

I recently auditioned an pair of Devore Fidelity 3XL stand mount speakers. If you get an opportunity to give them a listen you might like what you find there.

Let us know how your search is going.

[Dutchy]

Thanks for your replies!

@ Hifi: The Dynaudio C1s mk2 (new 7.600 euro) is far above my budget (max. 2.000 euro). Besides that I would like to hear this little extravagant, good looking speaker.

@ LeRoy: You confirmed the musical sound quality I am looking for. Natural, detailed, LIVELY. A sound that makes you forget analyzing, cause it's all there and you are completely involved. And yes, Reference 3A CAN offer this experience.

Last week I listened to four sets: Tannoy D500, Totem Hawk and two different sets of Reference 3A Royal Master. Tannoy sounded like my Quad 22L, only a little more full. Totem Hawk did offer a lot of holographic sound, but by far not as natural and detailed as the Quad's.

The Royal Master's are a complete different story. I was very impressed how they are able to create a realtime, LIVE experience of music. Very detailed and breathing. The soundstage offers depth and wideness. There's is no left and right anymore, it's just ONE stage. WOW!

I won't go into the technical details of the RM's now, maybe later.

More important: the second set of RM's plays in my room right now and I am in Heaven! Yello, Jordi Savall, Leonard Cohen etc - they are present in a way I never heard before.

The owner of the set offered me the possiblity to listen to them for one week and then decide. So will I keep them?
Next week I have the opportunity to listen to the following sets:
* Reference 3A Studio Master
* Reference 3A Master Control MMC
* Diapason Adamantes III
I will do so, and then make my final decision.

In the meantime I will appreciate any information or experience with the last mentioned speakers.

Anyone?

[blackraven]

What amp, preamp, CD player or DAC are you using? To get that holographic sound (air, transparency, wide sound stage along with depth) you need the electronics as well.

Martin Logan will give you what you are looking for. Some of the Dynaudio's and PSB Synchrony's also have that sound.

[RGA]

The thing is staging and imaging and "holographic" sound is largely dependent on the room, speaker placement, and the recordings. Most speakers are very capable of being at least "good" at those things.

Holographic sound IME is better served by speakers like Quad (the electrostats not the boxes) or King Sound.

Alternatively Horns or HE speakers like Audio Note or Omni-directionals from Mirage or MBL But all cost above what you're looking at.

The box can't get in the way in a boxed speaker because if it has that one note dead sound to it you won't buy into the disappearing act that you desire.

Reference 3a MM De Capo really isn't that great at this - What I liked about them is solid bass, musical, good body and weight and a nice perceptual front to back stage. But they didn't disappear or sound overly holographic (though I probably felt that way when I first heard them because when I first heard them they destroyed a lot of the competitors I heard at the time).

I would definitely be look at HE speakers - they escape the confines of the box - open baffle designs - because there is no box, panels.

Sealed boxes often tend to sound "faster" due to shorter roll off and because they tend to be more room friendly they also sound more open and realistic. I purchased the Audio Note K/Spe over the Reference 3a MM De Capo for many of these same reasons.

Teresonic has a standmount called the Magus - it's $5k however - but being a single driver these too avoid a lot of problems which should enhance the coherence of the sound which in turn should enhance the ability to sound holographic.

[Enochrome]

Snell Type Jll in my neighborhood for $200. Talk about a disappearing bargain.

[YBArcam]

You may want to try a set of PMC TB2i speakers. I was a little dismayed at the sound a couple of weeks ago that I was getting from my TB2i, but stuck with them as I knew they were still breaking in. I've reached PMC's recommended break in and the speakers sound much better.

I'm not sure I'd say that the speakers have disappeared. Left to right it usually doesn't feel as if the sound extends past the speakers. But between the speakers is filled in nicely, and front to back soundstaging is good (ahead of the plane of the speakers and behind them too). There is nice body and fullness to the lower mids and bass, and excellent tone as well. Because of these things the music feels alive, while male voices, drums, low piano notes, etc. have the heft they require. The speakers are fairly efficient, at 91dB I believe, though they use a power sucking 4th order crossover. But I believe it is very well implemented and along with the transmission line probably accounts for the high price PMC charges. The high rolloff allows each driver to handle the range it should, and the highs and lows are well integrated so that the musical performance as a whole is well put together.

The PMC may not give you exactly what you want, but IMO they would be better at it than the 22L (I used to own the Quad 12L2). But looking at a more high efficiency design (as RGA suggests) could be the ticket.

Here's a HE speaker I've had my eye on and I might purchase one day if I decide to get into tubes...ribbon tweeter, 8" woofer, one cap on the crossover, 94dB efficiency, and under $1,000:

Audiophile Tube Amps and Tube Gear from DECWARE (http://www.decware.com/newsite/DM945.html)

[JohnMichael]

Comparing my stand mount Mobile Fidelity OML 1's to floor standing Monitor Audio RS 6's the OML 1's disappear better than the floor standers. I think the combination of two drivers in close proximity along with less resonanat enclosures will throw a better soundstage and with eyes closed the speakers will disappear.

I have only heard the Reference 3A de Cappo and Dulcet and they are wonderful at both soundstaging and not being the obvious source of the music.

[LeRoy]

Last week I listened to four sets: Tannoy D500, Totem Hawk and two different sets of Reference 3A Royal Master. Tannoy sounded like my Quad 22L, only a little more full. Totem Hawk did offer a lot of holographic sound, but by far not as natural and detailed as the Quad's.

The Royal Master's are a complete different story. I was very impressed how they are able to create a realtime, LIVE experience of music. Very detailed and breathing. The soundstage offers depth and wideness. There's is no left and right anymore, it's just ONE stage. WOW!

I won't go into the technical details of the RM's now, maybe later.

More important: the second set of RM's plays in my room right now and I am in Heaven! Yello, Jordi Savall, Leonard Cohen etc - they are present in a way I never heard before.

The owner of the set offered me the possiblity to listen to them for one week and then decide. So will I keep them?
Next week I have the opportunity to listen to the following sets:
* Reference 3A Studio Master
* Reference 3A Master Control MMC
* Diapason Adamantes III
I will do so, and then make my final decision.

In the meantime I will appreciate any information or experience with the last mentioned speakers.

Anyone?

Sounds like you are having an audio buffet over at your place! It's gonna be lots of fun listening to everything. I will be interested in your opinion of the Diapason speakers. Take care and happy listening.

[RGA]

Comparing my stand mount Mobile Fidelity OML 1's to floor standing Monitor Audio RS 6's the OML 1's disappear better than the floor standers. I think the combination of two drivers in close proximity along with less resonanat enclosures will throw a better soundstage and with eyes closed the speakers will disappear.

I have only heard the Reference 3A de Cappo and Dulcet and they are wonderful at both soundstaging and not being the obvious source of the music.

Agreed and I think I find this with the vast majority of speakers - you can't disappear if the box is getting in the way - and standmounts tend to get in the way less but then you trade soundstage and imaging for a lack of bass, volume, dynamics, weight. Losing the full bodied sensation is tough to lose - subs add the bass back but they don't seamlessly integrate and they almost always invariably sound like dead one note bass. Fine for home theater but not for piano or cello IME anyway.

All the design types are better with more money (what a surprise) but on a budget you have to choose one over the other.

If volume and bass are no big deal then take the standmount.

I'll also put a good word in for the Roksan TR-5 loudspeaker - my review has been sent to the editor but this speaker IMO is a must audition in the price range and should merit consideration if your budget is double. I'm not saying it will win against double the price speakers but it won't lose to most of them and that's a win.

I don't think they're holographic but they do get the integration thing right and there is good bass weight such that a piano seems like a piano. The ribbon tweeter doesn't have the annoying ssshshshsshy ribbon sound that pervades most speakers using them.

What Hi-Fi beat me to it but they're pretty much bang on

Roksan Kandy K2 TR-5 review from the experts at whathifi.com (http://www.whathifi.com/review/roksan-kandy-k2-tr-5)

Although I had to laugh at them saying Ribbons are expensive to use - I've seen $14 computer speakers using ribbons. But that's for another thread.:21:

[LeRoy]

@ Dutchy, I fogot all about this speaker. Have a look at the reviews. I have never personally heard this speaker but maybe some of the other forum regulars have?
Minuet Supreme plus :: Silverline Audio :: at the convergence of art and science (http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=91)

@ RGA, man it's about time you finished that review :) I have been dying over here on the sidelines hoping you were going to publish soon. Gald you mention they don't do the sssssh thing with the ribbon tweeter. The first thing I always associate with ribbons is that awful sound.

Have a good day fellas.

[Enochrome]

@ Dutchy, I fogot all about this speaker. Have a look at the reviews. I have never personally heard this speaker but maybe some of the other forum regulars have?
Minuet Supreme plus :: Silverline Audio :: at the convergence of art and science (http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=91)

@ RGA, man it's about time you finished that review :) I have been dying over here on the sidelines hoping you were going to publish soon. Gald you mention they don't do the sssssh thing with the ribbon tweeter. The first thing I always associate with ribbons is that awful sound.

Have a good day fellas.


oooooooo...yeah, those are tasty. I heard those when getting a cart installed and demoed. Most people say their speakers out perform their size, those ACTUALLY do.

Did you see those specs? : down to 55hz with a 3" inch woofer, what the f*^k!!!? = Increable! :eek6:

[RGA]

@ Dutchy, I fogot all about this speaker. Have a look at the reviews. I have never personally heard this speaker but maybe some of the other forum regulars have?
Minuet Supreme plus :: Silverline Audio :: at the convergence of art and science (http://www.silverlineaudio.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=91)

@ RGA, man it's about time you finished that review :) I have been dying over here on the sidelines hoping you were going to publish soon. Gald you mention they don't do the sssssh thing with the ribbon tweeter. The first thing I always associate with ribbons is that awful sound.

Have a good day fellas.

If you hate ribbons you should be very very pleasantly surprised with these. I was. Interestingly they sounded quite a lot like their bigger brother that uses a silk dome. It's not nearly as good as the upper mid and treble of my AN J - but it is a damn good tweeter for the money and it doesn't have the problem treble.

I was really pleased because when I requested Roksan - I requested it based on hearing the bigger floorstanding speakers - but Sandy Greene at Dagogo already reviewed them so it was suggested to me to do the standmounts and given that they're a new model and that the dealer here suggested them (and he's got ears) then I was fine with that.

I will also be mentioning the Roksan speakers in my Trends Audio review since I had about a week and half overlap where I had both systems at the same time. But that will be a month after the Roksan.

[LeRoy]

RGA, thanks. I will be looking out for the reviews on the Roksan.

[Burchill]

There strange looking

[Gunawan]

Hi All, I have Reference 3A speaker type Ref2008, but I cannot get review for this speaker, somebody have experience?, thank's and sorry for my english

[Gunawan]

Hi All, I have speaker Reference 3A type Ref2008, I search review for this speaker, but I cannot found it, somebody have experience about this speaker or have link review for this speaker?
How about class of this speaker?, is it good compare with another Reference 3A speaker for example type episode or vienna?, thank's and sorry for my english

[eisforelectronic]

oooooooo...yeah, those are tasty. I heard those when getting a cart installed and demoed. Most people say their speakers out perform their size, those ACTUALLY do.

Did you see those specs? : down to 55hz with a 3" inch woofer, what the f*^k!!!? = Increable! :eek6:


Silverline is no joke.

[saymir]

audio physic virgo II fits your budget