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Poultrygeist
02-09-2012, 04:26 AM
My friend DJ from Charlotte brought his EL84 - 12AX7 Miniwatt N3 to my house recently and I was blown away with how good it sounded. I can't imagine any amp competing with the N3 even at three times it's price point.

APPJ EL84+12AX7 mini tube amp ( Original miniwatt N3 ) | eBay (http://www.ebay.com/itm/APPJ-EL84-12AX7-mini-tube-amp-Original-miniwatt-N3-/150650727840?pt=Vintage_Electronics_R2&hash=item23137bada0)

It's sad to see folks on audio forums drinking the kool aid hype of high end and shelling out mega bucks for "BLING" amps that can't touch the inner detail and dynamics of this pint sized wonder.

Paired with some easy to build open baffle full range speakers the N3 could easily be the centerpiece in a final destination system - it's that good!

cackalacky
02-09-2012, 10:47 PM
Poultrygeist knows whereof he speaks. My brother and I stopped at his house and listened to no less than 4 different systems. They had a common theme; low watt tubes driving full range transducers. What we heard was headshakingly amazing. Full range drivers mounted on open baffles, coupled w/bass augmentation, were startling in their clarity and image. The sound stage was deep and wide. A phenomenol setup for jazz and classical, yet plenty robust with bass-heavy blues. Textures, details, shimmer, resonance - it was all there in spades. My brother declared it "the best I've ever heard."
While I'm still a novice at this stuff, I've heard and priced some impressive systems. From what I've experienced, one would have to spend 300 - 400% more for sonic equality, and much more for limited and incremental improvement. And from what I've been reading, the low watt amp/full range high efficiency speaker is a not-so-quiet revolution that is gaining momentum daily.

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 05:03 AM
cackalacky, thanks for your objective comments on this less traveled audio path I've taken. Hearing is believing.

My passion for this topic comes from years of the never ending, high dollar, high power race with low efficiency multi-driver speakers and always thinking I was just one upgrade away. That "something is missing" feeling led me to searching for a better way and I found it the day the little Tekton's arrived and were hooked up to the original Miniwatt.

Having discovered what I'm convinced is a better, cheaper, and more sensible way, I'd love to see others give it a try. I wish I had had someone to encourage me years ago before I wasted so much time and money on gear that always left me wanting for more.

Feanor
02-10-2012, 05:39 AM
It's certainly tempting to try out SET at that price. One problem is I don't have suitable speakers to go with it.

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 06:53 AM
For $100 plus a sheet of plywood cut for free at Home Depot you can have these. I doubt there's a cheaper/better intro to full range sound and SET that these Betsy's and the Miniwatt N3. One guy on this forum sold some very expensive speakers after slapping the Betsy's together. He sent me a personal message thanking me for one of my posts which encouraged trying the Betsy's.

Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers (http://www.wildburroaudio.com/)

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 07:08 AM
These gussied up Betsy's are highly efficient and will play as loud as anyone could want when driven by the 3.5 watts of the N3 single ended triode amp.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/HPIM3973.JPG

LeRoy
02-10-2012, 09:03 AM
Hey P.G., your too good man! Thanks for the heads up on the amp and Betsy's. I have made it a point throughout the years to stay clear from Amazon and eBay....but not anymore. I can't resist the amp at the price point. Besides, yesterday I committed to getting a pair of Devore Fidelity 3XL speakers with an efficiency rating of 90. I will keep you posted.

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 10:15 AM
Hey LeRoy - 90db speakers will work with a 3.5 watt SET amp ( running in Class A ) but you may not have that much headroom.

I once drove some 84 db Aerials with the 2.5 watt MW and it wasn't bad in a small bedroom listening to the kind of music you'd play in a bedroom.

LeRoy
02-10-2012, 10:29 AM
Hey LeRoy - 90db speakers will work with a 3.5 watt SET amp ( running in Class A ) but you may not have that much headroom.

I once drove some 84 db Aerials with the 2.5 watt MW and it wasn't bad in a small bedroom listening to the kind of music you'd play in a bedroom.

I just completed the order a few moments ago. I will give the amp a shot over a the dealers showroom with the Devore's and if it drives them like I think it will then it won't be long before the Devore's are right where they belong--with me.

Thanks again for all your great info. :thumbsup:

Feanor
02-10-2012, 10:45 AM
For $100 plus a sheet of plywood cut for free at Home Depot you can have these. I doubt there's a cheaper/better intro to full range sound and SET that these Betsy's and the Miniwatt N3. One guy on this forum sold some very expensive speakers after slapping the Betsy's together. He sent me a personal message thanking me for one of my posts which encouraged trying the Betsy's.

Wild Burro Audio Labs - DIY Full Range Speakers (http://www.wildburroaudio.com/)
Those are pretty cool but other problem I've got is where to put another pair of fairly large speakers. These aren't going to displace the Maggies.

Ajani
02-10-2012, 01:34 PM
Excellent link Poultry! Keep spreading the word about affordable SET & OB and even obstinate bastards like me will eventually try one out...

That price on the miniwatt is mighty tempting...

LeRoy
02-10-2012, 01:47 PM
I once drove some 84 db Aerials with the 2.5 watt MW and it wasn't bad in a small bedroom listening to the kind of music you'd play in a bedroom.

All I ever do is play music in my bedroom because that is where my rig resides.

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 02:48 PM
You can fold each of the wings on a Betsy resulting in a skinny speaker and hide it behind drapes when you're not playing it.

A folding room divider would also make a good baffle for a pair of Betsy's.

Poultrygeist
02-10-2012, 07:08 PM
LeRoy,

You are gonna like the N3 but you'll probably need to roll all three tubes. I don't believe the N3 comes with a power cord but if you're like the rest of us you've got a spare or two. I think DJ has Mullards in his but I'm not positive.

Poultrygeist
02-11-2012, 01:00 PM
LeRoy,

N3 tube recommendations: ( 2 ) new matched EL84 JJ's, Tung Sols, or vintage Amperex, Sylvania, Mullard

( 1 ) vintage 12AX7 RCA clear top, Mullard or Conn, Baldwin, Lowrey, or other organ tube ( organ tubes had higher fidelity standards )

LeRoy
02-20-2012, 08:20 PM
PG, thanks for the much needed tube recommendations.

LeRoy
02-24-2012, 01:02 PM
Unit arrived today all in one piece and without blemishes. No user manual but it's simple. One analogue input for a source and speaker inputs for banana's only. Much to my surprise, behind the unit, the speaker inputs have options for 8 ohm, 6 ohm, and 4 ohm speakers. The color of the unit is like a brushed silver and very nice indeed.

At this writing I am 4 songs into it and playing Sarah Jarosz- Song Up In Her Head. Right out of the box from the upper mids to the top end...sounds good right out of the box. A tad lean in the lower mids and bass is light but this is with stock tubes and have new tubes on the way to replace the stock tubes it came it. The unit has no problem driving my inefficient System-Audio Aura 1 bookshelf speakers. Volume setting is at 10:00, very enjoyable, and could listen at this volume level all day.

Will let you guys know more as the amp gets seasoned. The Rogue is in "time-out" at the moment.

Ajani
02-24-2012, 05:51 PM
Cool. Keep us posted on your findings. I know nothing about tubes but I'd suggest trying the stock tubes for a while before switching to the new ones.

Poultrygeist
02-24-2012, 06:07 PM
My Miniwatt is the original 4 tube S1 which makes 2.5 watts vs 3.5 for your N3. Rolling the tubes made a drastic improvement as the stock no name Chinese tubes that came with mine were just horrible. Mine also has a diode mod which opened things up. The switching power supply, rare in a SET, no doubt helps the MW's performance.

Poultrygeist
02-24-2012, 06:26 PM
http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio/500/medium/PB220028.JPG

LeRoy
02-24-2012, 06:30 PM
Cool. Keep us posted on your findings. I know nothing about tubes but I'd suggest trying the stock tubes for a while before switching to the new ones.

This morning, before the MiniWatt arrived, I ordered the following tubes:
Northern Electric 12AX7 (http://thetubestore.com/northern-electric-12ax7.html)

and

Preferred Series 7189 (Premium EL84) (http://thetubestore.com/preferred7189.html)

It already shipped today as well. Man, I am not used to such
blazing service. The MiniWatt must have been shipped on the Star Trek Enterprise.

LeRoy
02-24-2012, 06:37 PM
P.G., ya I have the same silver unit as the one in your pic. I have been playing the unit since about 2:30-ish today. To my ears...timbre and pitch in the low mids and bass are restricted but upper mids to treble is good right out of the box. In comparison to the Rogue Cronus Magnum..the Rogue has a more delicate top end and more extension with a richer lower midrange. Bass from the Rogue is on another level but consider the Rogue has had one month of duty plus has 9 tubes overall and 90 WPC at that.

I am already considering ordering a second MiniWatt but this time the cryo'd version.

Looking at the pic from ebay the APPJ logo is shown on the lower right faceplate but my unit has MiniWatt N3 on the faceplate. :)

My System-Audio Aura 1 bookshelf speaker are rated at 84db but I hear no strain from the amp at all.

Poultrygeist
02-24-2012, 06:41 PM
LeRoy,

I hope you some day get to hear the Miniwatt paired with a 93db or higher full range single driver speaker with no filters or crossovers in the signal path.

Poultrygeist
02-24-2012, 07:14 PM
I only thing I ever bought that was cryo'd was an electrical outlet and only because it was cheap.

When I pulled the Miniwatt label off my amp, APPJ was printed underneath.

LeRoy
02-27-2012, 06:07 PM
Okay, last update till the new tubes arrive on Friday.

The Good:
1) Consistency- from the first time I turned the unit on the snares have been snappy, the shimmer and taps on the cymbals with the varying tones depending on where the taps are placed has been a real treat to listen to. Being able to reveal the inner detail of a variety of recordings has also been a strong suit of the amp. Such is the detail that its easy to feel the shape of the singers lips/mouth during the enunciation of the lyric on the song, Man Of The Hour, by Norah Jones.
2) Value- this little amp is neat to listen to and a great deal of musicality for so little money. The music just flows right and with the overall tonality I have no complaints.
3) Fit and finish- no flaws or scratches or loose parts.
4) I really like the volume knob. I can handle the knob with confidence knowing it won't skew when handled normally. Unlike the knob on the Rogue which is so sensitive that normal handling is actually too rough and will result in it getting stuck and thereby the remote can't get past certain points. So Kudos to APPJ for keeping the quality of workmanship high.
5) Usable volume with all the music I've put on it remains good to 11:00. Depending on the quality of the recording I might be able to keep the volume consistent at 12:00 (with average recordings).
6) The upper mid-bass and treble is accurate and is a great match with my speakers.
7) It's cute, light, and easy to place wherever you want and would make a good traveling companion.


The Bad:
1) Beyond 12:00 on the volume the amp loses control of the bass and it just sounds totally smeared and off time. If the recording is of very good quality, say Cassandra Wilson - New Moon Daughter, then I have to leave the volume at 11:00 tops.
2) Not really able to deliver music with the requisite dynamics. I did not realize how important the loss of dynamics would affect my emotional response to the music with the loss of dynamics.
3) The lower mid bass pitch and timbre, while has improved some, still lacks some sustain.

The Ugly:
1) The loss of dynamics on one of my favorite songs from Hugh Maskela- Stimela (The Coal Train), really made me want to turn the amp off. There is so much emotion/sentiment and artistry in this song that was not present--such a severe drop in dynamics. The drop off was so big that it actually made my speakers sound puny. Even though my speaker are quite small they never have sounded puny till I played this song.
2) Any burst of mid-bass energy is best appreciated within 2-3 feet in front of the speaker while the rest of the upper mids and top end propagate as they should toward the listener.

Concluding:
Even though this amp has bad and ugly that I have listed above...I still prefer the overall musicality of the MiniWatt N3 over what I used to have- Rega Brio 3 and Belles Soloist Amp & Pre. The amp is from the cloth of neutrality. This is not a bad thing! Most neutral products sound gray and boorish. However, not so with the MiniWatt. I am engaged into the presentation even though it's a small potato's kind of presentation.

LeRoy
03-03-2012, 06:36 AM
A mini update. New tubes arrived yesterday evening. All I can say is WOW. What a difference tube rolling can make in a system. Last night I only changed the stock AX7 with the new one, Northern Electric 12AX7.

With the new AX7 in place I now have bass weight in the piano notes (listening to Jaime Cullum-Twenty Something) and without smearing or distortion all the way to 12:00 on the volume pot. Playing the CD, Holly Cole- Temptation, there is a lot of female baritone and great stand up bass. All of it sounded very natural with great clarity, pitch is well delineated, and timbre sounds correct to me.

It's amazing that the MW can overcome my inefficient 84db S-A. speakers! I can hear no amp strain whatsoever. My speakers no longer sound puny.

So, this morning I replaced the stock EL84's with the Preferred Series 7189 (EL84). Now I have more top end resolution and overall balance, and a more forward presentation. The character of the sound of the amp in terms of warmth is now where I want it....somewhere between a hybrid amp and the warmth of a Marantz electronics ( I don't like Marantz for 2ch but like it for HT).

Another amazing thing about the MW is it really does not need to warm up a long time to sound great....its good to go after just a couple of minutes being powered on.

Now the challenge I will have is trying to roll tubes on the Rogue in attempt to get it sounding as good as the MW!

The MW is one heck of an audio bargain.

Ajani
03-03-2012, 07:00 AM
You could just sell the rogue.

Glad to hear you're getting good results with the mini watt.

LeRoy
03-03-2012, 08:31 AM
You could just sell the rogue.

Glad to hear you're getting good results with the mini watt.

Thank you Ajani. Yep, selling the Rogue has crossed my mind a few times ever since I got the MW in.

I think I will try to roll the trio of AU7's in the Rouge and then listen for the changes. If that does not do it then I will roll the 2 AX7's and go no further with it. That's the plan at the moment.

Poultrygeist
03-03-2012, 09:11 AM
Thanks LeRoy for the update.

I've been advocating for the MW here for several years and am glad someone finally took me serious. This pint size wonder is down right amazing and will get you hooked on the superior qualities of single ended tube amps.

The N3 will open up even more once the tubes season.

LeRoy
03-03-2012, 10:15 AM
Thanks LeRoy for the update.

I've been advocating for the MW here for several years and am glad someone finally took me serious. This pint size wonder is down right amazing and will get you hooked on the superior qualities of single ended tube amps.

The N3 will open up even more once the tubes season.

Your welcome. Until you posted the link for the ebay sale I don't recall seeing anything about the MW. I guess I just bypassed the other threads you may have posted about it.

Yes, the MW is quite the pint size wonder. Now if they would only make a 10-15 MW amp that certainly would open up greater possibilities for speaker selection matching.

Toward that end, yesterday, I placed an order for a pair of Dali Ikon 2 mk2 in black. Should have them in about a week. I will have to choose between Dali or System-Audio speakers on the Rogue and the MW. I got it sooo bad :)

Poultrygeist
03-03-2012, 10:38 AM
LeRoy,

Your MW would love these and so does Art Dudley who owns a pair.

the horn shoppe (http://www.thehornshoppe.com/model1.html)

LeRoy
03-03-2012, 01:53 PM
LeRoy,

Your MW would love these and so does Art Dudley who owns a pair.

the horn shoppe (http://www.thehornshoppe.com/model1.html)

I will check out all the reviews.

LeRoy
03-10-2012, 12:28 PM
Mini update- I had no idea just how sensitive or much more sensitive cables impact a tube amp. The MW definitely prefers the Neko XLR with RCA connectors to the amp over the Virtue Audio I.C.'s. The fullness of the lower midrange and bass in general is present with the Neko. With the V.A. cables it sounds more natural but with a loss of dynamic expression--too soft with the V.A. cables.

For the moment, I will keep the System-Audio Aura 1's with the Neko cables to complete the MW system.

andyalls
03-17-2012, 02:39 AM
Hi LeRoy. I was interested to see your post regarding rolling onto the Northern Electric 12AX7 tube. I've been trying to find out info on that tube after seeing it on sale at one of the online stores, and could only find negative comments on another thread complaining that the tubes are Chinese. I gather you purchased the Preferred Series from the same shop, have you tried their 12AX7 tubes? If so, what did you think? I quite keen to try in my amp.

I'll probably buy both anyway just to try them out.

My Yaqin MC-100B uses:

4 x Electro Harmonix KT88
4 x Sylvania 6SN7GTB chrome domes (1950)
2 x Brimar 12AX7

I currently use two of the new Russian Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7 gold pin tubes in the pre-amp.

LeRoy
03-18-2012, 02:49 PM
Hi LeRoy. I was interested to see your post regarding rolling onto the Northern Electric 12AX7 tube. I've been trying to find out info on that tube after seeing it on sale at one of the online stores, and could only find negative comments on another thread complaining that the tubes are Chinese. I gather you purchased the Preferred Series from the same shop, have you tried their 12AX7 tubes? If so, what did you think? I quite keen to try in my amp.

I'll probably buy both anyway just to try them out.

My Yaqin MC-100B uses:

4 x Electro Harmonix KT88
4 x Sylvania 6SN7GTB chrome domes (1950)
2 x Brimar 12AX7

I currently use two of the new Russian Genalex Gold Lion 12AX7 gold pin tubes in the pre-amp.

Yes, I bought the tubes from 12AX7 / 7025 / ECC83 Tube Types (http://thetubestore.com/12ax70ectyp.html).

Please take any comment I have about the N.E tube with a grain of salt. I am new to tube amplification and the N.E. tube was my first experience with tube rolling of any kind.

To answer your inquiry, the N.E. AX7 is a warm tube but much to my delight was significantly more complete in the lower mids and bass over the stock tube ( which are simply stamped 12 AX7 China).

I don't know where the N.E. AX7 is made though. I have had no microphonics or noise issues with this tube since I installed it. I also am utilizing EL84's with the AX7 in the MW. The EL 84's really are dominant over the AX7 in that it they took out a lot of the warmth of the AX7. I don't like a bright or overly warm sounding system so the blend of the two works for me. I did lose some soundstage when I put the Preferred Series 7189 (EL 84's) but the lower mids and bass were not diminished.

Hope this info helps you out.