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RGA
02-05-2012, 10:32 PM
But I often wonder what horns people have actually auditioned. Klipsch made the good the bad and the ugly and for the most part most people experiences with horns are what they heard from Klipsch.


So I would like to know the three BEST Horn speakers you have given a healthy audition to over the years. If you liked a horn speaker at $2k but you heard one at $20k then mention that you auditioned an expensive horn.

They don't have to be full horns - they can be quasi horns or part horns etc

My three horny for horns, speakers would be

Acapella High Violoncello II
From my show report 2010 CES Coverage 17: Acoustic Zen/Triode Corporation Ltd/Orb/DEQX, Ensemble, Kingsound/VAC/Ayon, Acapella/Einstein/Bergman/Ypsilon - Event Reports - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=717)

Silbatone Aporia Fullrange
From my show report 2010 CES Coverage 18: Lamm/ Wilson, PBN/Edge, Silbatone Acoustics - Event Reports - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=718)

Trenner and Freidl RA Box
From my show report 2010 CES Coverage 19: Classic Audio, Trenner & Friedl / Heed Audio / Viva Audio amplifiers, Sound Lab / Atmosphere, Gershman Acoustics / VAC, Manley Laboratories / Gershman Acoustics, - Event Reports - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=721)


Some other good ones but if I had to choose these would be my three.

Poultrygeist
02-06-2012, 04:27 AM
There are many excellent DIY folded horn designs that few main stream audiophiles ever experience. Here's one using a Fostex full range single driver.

Tubes & Horn - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbBVZ7T5p3k&feature=related)

Poultrygeist
02-06-2012, 04:48 AM
Here are my Frugal Horn's folded horn build anatomy.

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/P3040011.JPG

Ajani
02-06-2012, 05:48 AM
Does a shallow waveguide count as a Horn?
http://www.revelspeakers.com/images/prodphotos/prod_51_634478195574926481_F12_pr_cherry_resize.jp g
If so then Revel makes my favourite horns. :ciappa:

In general, I think horns get a bad rap because there are not a lot of horn speakers in home audio, so other than Klipsch, some JBL models and pro audio (outdoor/concert) speakers, most persons (myself included) have not heard many horns.

RGA
02-06-2012, 06:30 AM
Poultrygeist

I was interested in the Dalek from the FrugalHorn site - as a Dr. Who Fan I had a nice laugh at the name - it looks pretty interesting.

Problem is I have no way to put such a speaker together with zero tools the investment and time - just can't happen. If they build them for you like AN Kits does as an optional extra - they would be interesting however.

recoveryone
02-06-2012, 07:34 AM
Does a shallow waveguide count as a Horn?
http://www.revelspeakers.com/images/prodphotos/prod_51_634478195574926481_F12_pr_cherry_resize.jp g
If so then Revel makes my favourite horns. :ciappa:



In general, I think horns get a bad rap because there are not a lot of horn speakers in home audio, so other than Klipsch, some JBL models and pro audio (outdoor/concert) speakers, most persons (myself included) have not heard many horns. Those are pretty

Poultrygeist
02-06-2012, 10:27 AM
Folded horns are one of the few designs capable of gaining mechanical efficiency and they really come into their own when paired with tube amps.

Those with a rear terminus like the Frugals and Hornshoppe Horns ( Art Dudley's favorite ) need corner loading to maximize bass response.

RGA
02-07-2012, 02:52 AM
You'll get no argument from me - Peter Qvortrup's absolute favorite loudspeaker is Lowther based

"The treble and midrange on the Lowthers was one of the best I have ever encountered, and I have owned pretty much everything over the past 35 years, from Voigt's field coil driven horns, Tannoy's original 1950's Westminster's, Siemens Klangfilm and WE cinema systems to B&W DM70s, stacked Quad 57's, Beveridge System 2's, Acoustats, to Hill's Plasmatronics, Heil's full range AMT, Snell A/IIIs you name it, I have at some time or another had them all and what they all has taught me is not insubstantial. (referring to Lowther PM4 running in a folded horn that measured over 32 meters in length with a massive mouth diameter and that had very good bass, and it was 106dB or so efficient to boot.")

And

I rate the Lowther PM4 system and the Siemens systems as the best overall, but they are domestically almost impossible unless you live in a mansion, and very few of us do, so something smaller is needed."

The link also explains why he hates slim narrow baffles and 3+ way speakers - this probably should go in the thread for Feanor who noted they go against convention - probably because they have actually read the books on acoustics and not the marketing spiel of "corporations like oh never mind - I seem in a bad mood tonight so this is my last post today - gee I need a Baily's.

Re: The Dangers of Convension Slavery - Peter Qvortrup - Speaker Asylum (http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=speakers&n=192388&highlight=lowther+peter+qvortrup&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dlowt her%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26autho r%3Dpeter%2Bqvortrup%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowm essage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26foru m%3Dspeakers)

Poultrygeist
02-07-2012, 03:04 AM
Here are the Lowther field coils in a folded horn. Even on crappy pc speakers the purity of sound is evident. I'd kill for a pair.

Field Coil Horn at BAF Show 2011 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qEW2QcKLw4&noredirect=1)

Feanor
02-07-2012, 04:51 AM
...

The link also explains why he hates slim narrow baffles and 3+ way speakers - this probably should go in the thread for Feanor who noted they go against convention - probably because they have actually read the books on acoustics and not the marketing spiel of "corporations like oh never mind - I seem in a bad mood tonight so this is my last post today - gee I need a Baily's.

Re: The Dangers of Convension Slavery - Peter Qvortrup - Speaker Asylum (http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=speakers&n=192388&highlight=lowther+peter+qvortrup&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fsearchtext%3Dlowt her%26b%3DAND%26topic%3D%26topics_only%3DN%26autho r%3Dpeter%2Bqvortrup%26date1%3D%26date2%3D%26slowm essage%3D%26sort%3Dscore%26sortOrder%3DDESC%26foru m%3Dspeakers)
Humm ... well PQ isn't a convincing audio authority for me. There are several statements there that are at least dubious. A big one being that narrow baffles reduce off-axis response: got other authorities on this subject? In basic physics it's the width of the driver itself that primarily that determines dispersion, and provided the width of the baffle is at least 1/2 the lowest frequency produced, dispersion will be good. Another dubious comment is that high-order crossovers "make matters worse" with respect to driver mismatch; high-order crossovers reduce the driver overlap and thus reduce phase and other mismatch issues -- or at least this the conventional opinion of people with actual acoustic science credentials (which PQ does not have).

RGA
02-07-2012, 07:24 AM
Humm ... well PQ isn't a convincing audio authority for me. There are several statements there that are at least dubious. A big one being that narrow baffles reduce off-axis response: got other authorities on this subject? In basic physics it's the width of the driver itself that primarily that determines dispersion, and provided the width of the baffle is at least 1/2 the lowest frequency produced, dispersion will be good. Another dubious comment is that high-order crossovers "make matters worse" with respect to driver mismatch; high-order crossovers reduce the driver overlap and thus reduce phase and other mismatch issues -- or at least this the conventional opinion of people with actual acoustic science credentials (which PQ does not have).

Peter is not an engineer - he hires the best ones to get him what he wants - Andy Grove is the guy that heads their design team - and he has the credentials. And before that was Kondo - and I know cables get a bad rap but at least Kondo had a degree in metalurgy and headed Sony designinf the world's best microphones.

To say that Andy and Peter (and just because you don't have a degree doesn't mean anything - as I'll illustrate below) would disagree with the opinions of people who make MUCH MUCH worse sounding gear is not a surprise. The proof is in the pudding - or in this case the resulting sound. I'll read the white paper after I hear the product - if it sucks - the paper is not going to change that.

As for Degrees.

Ah my dad - at 47 was out of work and we lived in Australia - my dad went to British Columbia to find work while my mom and I moved to Wales waiting for him to land something. He caught on with Veterans Affairs for the Federal government. And he went for a job as a manager in the Finance area.

Back in the good old days where companies wanted the best people rather than just looking at pieces of paper - they had FAIR hiring practices. The job came up which requires applicants to write a test of knowledge in the field of accounting - and various managing questions. But anyone could apply - degree or not.

My dad went up against several fellows with University degrees chartered accountants and or CMAs. My dad was the only person to even pass the test. So much for degrees. He got the job. Now if he was only smart enough to quit smoking earlier but such is life.

I have two degrees and I don't hold a candle to what he knew. I would come home from the first day of University to tell him about the history course I was signed up for and over three hours he basically covered the entire course from memory - and he had the names the dates the events - the players, the social climate of the time the political intrigue.

As one friend who got his CMA at 50 once noted to me - brilliant people don't need degrees - degrees are for the average minds to prove to employers that they're their "pretty smart". Granted that is a sweeping generalization but there is a pretty big fat kernal of truth to it as well. The brilliant people are off being brilliant some place not sitting in classes listening to weaker minds telling them stuff they already know (thinking of the line in Goodwill Hunting where Will notes that absurdity of spending $150k in an education while he can spend $30 in late charges at the public library - or a line along this line.

Peter hires the people to attain what he wants - the top guy from Sonic Frontiers, the top guy from Voyd, Andy - whole bunch of people are after him - Quad hired him.


I can't really answer questions that are put to Peter. And I am no engineer. The way it works for me on these issues is this

1) let me listen to it. If it sounds great - sure I'll read your white papers or reasons for how you managed to make great sound - you probably know what the hell your talking about.

2) if your sound sucks - then I don't care if you finished first at MIT like Dr. Bose or work for a massive speaker maker or your a big name etc - if the sound sucks then your papers are meaningless - aka Dr. Bose with his PHD and his M.I.T degree or the Nuclear fission expert that runs Monster Cable (or whatever it is he's an expert in). Eesh.

Like I say - I have met many brilliant people far more brilliant than I'll ever be - they have no degrees - I have two of them - and I did very well in them too. But I'm not in their class - not even remotely so.

Peter's line in engineering seems to be from the following from his reply to the NHT dealer (and man those speakers SUCK compared to the AN E) which may indicate why they went belly up - the engineer there has gotten around to killing a lot of companies over the years!

Peter suggested that the NHT fellow this:

"Since you are clearly a fully paid up member of current fashion club in speaker design, may I suggest that you go back and study two of the original works on acoustics and speakers, or perhaps 3,

a.) N. W. McLaughlin's Acoustics on McGraw-Hill, I believe it was issued about 1934, McLaughlin was probably the greatest mathematician who ever set foot in acoustics.

b.) L. L. Beranek's Loudspeakers.

c.) Any of Harry Ohlsons books.

These books contain the vast majority of what one needs to understand about sound propagation and acoustics, mostly forgotten knowledge as the industry has "progressed" towards commerciality with all its vagaries."

There is a reason why the integration of AN speaker is IME better than anyone else out there that I have heard.

As a single driver nut on AA who switched from Lowther to the AN E mentioned - the AN E is like a lowther but with bass and treble. It's the main reason in fact that people go from Maggies and Quads and single drivers to AN Es - The gain outweighs the very little bit of loss in cohesion.

So when people come out with white papers about crossovers are coming from people who can't get seamless integration themselves - why would I put stock into them - It makes logical sense to put stock into the guy who comes out with something that actually works, no?

Although I suppose it does make sense in a way - after all if Audio Note viewed it the same way as everyone else and had the same banal lock step view then they would not be able to create the generally much better sounding stuff that they create. Indeed, if you follow the same "wrong path approaches" that everyone else follows you could not possibly create anything that is all that much different. Which is why so much stuff sounds awfully similar to lots of other stuff. I'd prefer to follow the people who make the best sound. As Peter noted they run counter the rest of the industry in the video link - "we do what we do - until the rest of the industry,... Peter Qvortrup @ Hi-Files Show 2009 (part 2) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=zEUW3Y7IZRA)

Feanor
02-07-2012, 10:07 AM
Yahda, yahda, RGA. I'm not saying the degree-less people can't be brilliant practitioners. I've been in that situation myself, (i.e. degree-less but doing the job, (not necessarily brilliantly), when most around me were degreed. Peter Qvortrup is an example of a unaccredited person who often to say things of a highly subjective nature with which accredited experts disagree based on scientific demonstration. It is one thing to be without degree, another thing to fly in the face of science.

Above all what Qvortrup is, is a clever entrepreneur who exploits an eccentric audiophile niche that is susceptible to his particular variety of snake oil.

For me one of the more stupid stances I've heard from Qvortrup say is that digital audio inherently cannot reproduce sound accurately. This is rubbish as demonstrated decades ago by Nyquist-Shannon theorem. With due regard for the true HF limits of human hearing and various practical considerations sound can be perfectly reproduced from digital samples.

Ajani
02-07-2012, 06:15 PM
Above all what Qvortrup is, is a clever entrepreneur who exploits an eccentric audiophile niche that is susceptible to his particular variety of snake oil..

:devil: LOL :devil:

Qvortrup is in the same category as countless other hifi designers like Antony michaelson of musical fidelity: they all believe their products are the way the truth and the life. Frankly, I ignore all their endless bragging and posturing. I could care less about Qvortrup's "closest tolerances in the industry" or Antony's "near state of the art measurements". All that matters is whether the specific product sounds good and meets my needs.

I also don't see why none of these designers can have "professional disagreements" about design. It's always about how their path is the only one and everyone else is just interested in ripping off the masses with marketing. Is it not possible that someone like Kevin voecks of Revel is as passionately convinced that his speakers sound great as Peter Qvortrup is about audio note?

RGA
02-07-2012, 09:55 PM
Feanor

I won't disagree with you on the seeming snake oil commentary. If I read before I heard I'd say the same thing - oh wait - I did back when I was about to buy a B&W and Bryston system - as those pieces are certainly "safe" with lots of numbers on their side. Peter puts out a lot of layman talk I suspect because that's easier for him to get his head around it - perhaps what he should do is let his engineers do the talking for engineer readers. Most aren't however. Andy Grove on their Digital technology Audio Note Kits - Why is AudioNote's 1X oversampling unique? (http://www.audionotekits.com/agrovedac.html)

RGA
02-07-2012, 10:37 PM
:devil: LOL :devil:

Qvortrup is in the same category as countless other hifi designers like Antony michaelson of musical fidelity: they all believe their products are the way the truth and the life. Frankly, I ignore all their endless bragging and posturing. I could care less about Qvortrup's "closest tolerances in the industry" or Antony's "near state of the art measurements". All that matters is whether the specific product sounds good and meets my needs.

Well if people only cared about sound quality then they would actually get of their fat asses and audition stuff right? But no what they do is they read a bunch of stuff and then determine what is good and what is bad based on that. I was guilty of that as well - hey my Pioneer Elite was .00025% THD from 20hz to 20khz and put out 125 watts per channel RMS full bandwidth - pretty excellent - Until I brought home a worse measuring Bryston and Arcam that both anhialated it.


As for tolerances - with all the talk of frequency response what would you say about a PAIR of loudspeakers that are off by 3db from eachother? How about off by 6db?

It's all nice to measure ONE speaker in a pair in the middle of a room and provide frequency plots but if the left speaker sounds different than the right speaker - well you have a problem.

Kevin Voecks I might buy into more but he has shifted back and forth on designs over the years - he doesn't seem really clear on what makes the best sound - as you can see over the years with the variety of speakers he's made. Most of which I have not liked.

I certainly understand the marketing pressures - you have to sell a looker - and then with the looks in mind dreamed up by the marketing department - the engineer is then asked to make good sound out of the preconceived looker. That's what happened when the engineers at B&W asked Audio Note for help to make better loudspeakers - several of their engineers wanted to make the change but when forced to change their look dramatically - the answer is - "that look doesn't sell" and so sound takes the back seat. As was pointed out to me on AA - B&W pays all the studios to use their speakers.



The issue with Peter Q is secondary to the discussion and it may be fun to take pot shots at Peter but he never designed the AN speakers - he simply loved them and hired people to make them better. Peter Snell - the guy who schooled Voecks - designed one aspect of the AN E - it was designed by L.L. Beranek - the worlds leading expert on loudspeaker design and acoustics and taught acoustics at M.I.T.

You want an engineer - no one anywhere is any better than Beranek - which is why EVERY book on acoustics references him.

"he managed Harvard's electro-acoustics laboratory, which designed communications and noise reduction systems for World War II aircraft, while at the same time developing other military technologies. During this time, he built the first anechoic chamber, an extremely quiet room for studying noise effects which later would inspire John Cage's philosophy of silence. Beranek remained on staff at Massachusetts Institute of Technology as professor of communications engineering from 1947 to 1958. In 1948, he helped found Bolt, Beranek and Newman (BBN), serving as the company's president from 1952 to 1971.

His 1954 (reprinted in 1986) book, Acoustics, is considered the classic textbook in this field. His seminal 1962 book, Music Acoustics and Architecture, developed from his analysis of 55 concert halls throughout the world, became a classic; the 2004 edition of the text expanded the study to 100 halls. Beranek has participated in the design of numerous concert halls and opera houses. From 1983 to 1986 he was Chairman of the Board of the Boston Symphony Orchestra (where he remains a Life Trustee). He also serves on the Council for the Arts at MIT."

The proof is in the pudding - go to Soundhounds (phone ahead) and audition the 20.1 from Magnepan ($15k) or B&W 802D ($23k) or any of their speakers from Dynaudio or Paradigm or Meridian Active directly against the AN E LX HE $5800. Put on any piano (or any acoustic instrument) piece. It should take - oh - I dunno about 4 minutes. the last 3 minutes will be "asking yourself a bunch of questions of how to sell the system I currently have to make space or change my living room around to make corners available. Not that it matters - even positioned badly they still beat those positioned in their perfect sweet spots - and that's because Beranek and Peter Snell had a clue.

There is a reason everyone there likes one speaker above the rest. Beranek and Snell and Grove have a clue. Peter - he just has excellent taste.

Ajani
02-08-2012, 01:02 AM
I certainly understand the marketing pressures - you have to sell a looker - and then with the looks in mind dreamed up by the marketing department - the engineer is then asked to make good sound out of the preconceived looker. That's what happened when the engineers at B&W asked Audio Note for help to make better loudspeakers - several of their engineers wanted to make the change but when forced to change their look dramatically - the answer is - "that look doesn't sell" and so sound takes the back seat. As was pointed out to me on AA - B&W pays all the studios to use their speakers.

1) there are always going to be limitations in designing products. If the product is massive and ugly then it will be very hard to sell - I see nothing wrong with customers expecting speakers to both sound and look good.
2) if you're going to make those kind of scandalous accusations against b&w then you really need to back them up with proof. Until then they just aren't credible.

Feanor
02-08-2012, 07:48 AM
Feanor

I won't disagree with you on the seeming snake oil commentary. If I read before I heard I'd say the same thing - oh wait - I did back when I was about to buy a B&W and Bryston system - as those pieces are certainly "safe" with lots of numbers on their side. Peter puts out a lot of layman talk I suspect because that's easier for him to get his head around it - perhaps what he should do is let his engineers do the talking for engineer readers. Most aren't however. Andy Grove on their Digital technology Audio Note Kits - Why is AudioNote's 1X oversampling unique? (http://www.audionotekits.com/agrovedac.html)
This is old stuff, but one must grant that Andy Grove comes away sounding more rational then Qvortrup.

Still you get this: "<i>When a set of samples is passed through a digital filter, what you get out won’t be an interpolated superset of the input samples, which is the fundamental premise of the whole technology, they will be an entirely new set of samples.

Therefore philosophically there is something wrong with digital filtering and this is proven in practical listening tests. Hence we do not oversample the input signal or digitally tamper with it at all.</i>"

To paraphrase Goering, when I hear "philosophical" in at technical context, I reach for my gun.

Of course it's true that frequencies coming out to DAC that are above half the sampling frequency, (i.e. 22 kHz in case of CD), are noise. This garbage is potentially damaging to amplifier circuits and speakers.

It's also true that steep analog filters cause phase shifts in the audible range, and it's true that the most often used digital filter, (FIR = finite impulse response), is phase linear but causes the "pre-echo" that Groves describes. Two things can be said about that: (a) it's not clear that the "pre-echo" is actually audible, and (b) in any case, other digital filtering options are available, e.g. in case of the Cambridge Dacmagic where the type of filter is selectable.

The Grove/Qvortrup solution is to not filter at all (!!). Instead they rely on non-linear components, viz. transformers and tubes, to filter out the HF garbage. This is yet another example of Audio Note ignoring best practice; John Atkinson always expresses a negative comment when he reviews a non-oversampling or non-filtering DAC.

Feanor
02-08-2012, 08:02 AM
...
The proof is in the pudding - go to Soundhounds (phone ahead) and audition the 20.1 from Magnepan ($15k) or B&W 802D ($23k) or any of their speakers from Dynaudio or Paradigm or Meridian Active directly against the AN E LX HE $5800. Put on any piano (or any acoustic instrument) piece. ...

There is a reason everyone there likes one speaker above the rest. Beranek and Snell and Grove have a clue. Peter - he just has excellent taste.
I think "everyone" is hyperbole.

For my part, I wouldn't select a piano recording as a test; my choice would be a medium- or large-scale choral work with chorus and orchestra.

RGA
02-08-2012, 06:20 PM
In this case it isn't Hyperbole - there is only one store that sells all of Magnepan, Quad, Audio Note (and did sell Martin Logan) - there are roughly 10 employees in the store - all of them would take the entry level AN E over the top models from those brands. This is no insult to those brands - in part it depends on the music and positioning availability in one's home.

If a system can't reproduce one instrument what makes you think it can reproduce more than one? Piano covers most of the frequency spectrum - it is a full bodied instrument offering up excellent transient and decay behavior. I start with piano, female vocals, male vocals, and something like Beethoven's 5th, some Vivaldi and usually Dave Brubeck, Oscar Peterson, Pat Metheny - then I reach for the Rock/Pop/Trance/Country kind of stuff. Usually I don't need to get past the piano and vocals. Creating a large stereo soundstage is irrelevant if instruments sound poor.

There are some other non oversampling CD players and DACs. None are the same as an Audio Note however. And having reservations about the measured response - UHF measured the basic DAC from AN - and I have no problems in saying they don't measure well. Big deal - neither do SET amps.

And yet that same Stereophile with a writer who owns great technical measuring stuff reviewed a system utilizing DAC 4.1x Balanced DAC. Ongaku Means Ecstasy | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/index.html)

Or this reviewer that owns an SACD player in the $5k price range which is probably better than most players that SACD owners on these forums will ever possess. That same zero sampling DAC

So two reviewers who have had healthy experience and own SACD machines - the first claims that a non SACD machine is the best sound he's ever heard - and better than any SACD fronted room at the show and the latter stopped reviewing and became a dealer he liked it so much. audionote (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue8/audionote.htm)

There is a reason Audio Note is widely and deeply considered to make the best digital replay on the planet. JA has reservations about measurements - that's fine. What is he going to say? Oh by the way for the last 25 years our magazine was wrong and you can ignore the graphs - c'mon - never going to happen.

RGA
02-08-2012, 06:59 PM
1) there are always going to be limitations in designing products. If the product is massive and ugly then it will be very hard to sell - I see nothing wrong with customers expecting speakers to both sound and look good.
2) if you're going to make those kind of scandalous accusations against b&w then you really need to back them up with proof. Until then they just aren't credible.

1) I have no problem with people sacrificing some sound quality for appearance. I am not married - if I were I would probably have to make those "compromises" as well. However, I would not delude myself into thinking I wasn't making a compromise.

2) My accusation was hear-say - thanks for calling me on it - I assumed who I was talking to on AA was an engineer in the know and I have now gone back to call him on it. I was a little quick to believe him due to my own bias on my opinion of the sound of B&W and the sound of recordings coming out of Abbey Road. You can read my new reply to him - Problem with your statements... - RGA - Speaker Asylum (http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/speakers/messages/31/313301.html)

Mr Peabody
02-09-2012, 06:30 AM
I agree horns do get a bad rap and it's mostly Klipsch's fault, and I agree not a lot of good horns in mainstream audio. At one time I sold Electro Voice and wanted to use them in my system, they sounded awesome, it was early in my marriage and the wife didn't think carpet boxes met our decorum though :) A recent brush with horns which led me to believe they can be done right for home use was the JBL LS series and Array series, the horns sounded great, although I couldn't get the 1400's to image to my satisfaction in my room. Really not much else horn experience. I've heard several Klipsch.

E-Stat
02-09-2012, 03:08 PM
I agree horns do get a bad rap and it's mostly Klipsch's fault...
along with Altec, JBL and every other pro system I have ever heard, except for...

One completely different approach to horn design is taken by Danley Labs. While there are neutral sounding horns available, I have yet to hear a large multi-way one that is truly coherent sounding. Tom Danley's horns output the entire bandwidth from a single "mouth" where all frequencies radiate into the room with the same directivity - much like a full range electrostat. Like the larger Sound Lab stats, they are also designed to be used in arrays for greater lateral or vertical coverage.

Danley Synergy Horns (http://www.danleysoundlabs.com/synergy_horn.asp?model=SH%2060)

tube fan
02-12-2012, 08:12 PM
I just have to disagree: the best Klipisch speakers can compare favorably to 95% of today's best.

RGA
02-13-2012, 12:49 AM
I think Mr. P was referring the big box store shopping mall sold Klipsch speakers. Like I said Klipsch made the good the bad and the ugly.

Most people have never heard the K-Horn - what they heard were those $650 floorstanders with ear bleedingly bright or forward tweeters that were unmatched in sensitivity to their woofers. Compound that by connecting them to those early 14bit CD players and junky receivers and it was truly an abysmal mess.

As for still competing with 95% of stuff today - quite true and Klipsch thinks so too as they are now selling 4 of their best older models - but with new upgraded parts and very likely tightened them up to sound even better. I am quite excited to hear the new (or should I say old) Heritage series. The trouble with judging the old models is that they're old and worn down - hearing a fresh pair is rather intriguing.

Heritage Home Audio-Loudspeakers-Klipsch (http://www.klipsch.com/heritage-speakers)

E-Stat
02-14-2012, 07:46 PM
Most people have never heard the K-Horn...
Every one I've heard honks in the midrange and compromises imaging with its corner placement. Which is why the Heresy was created in 1957.

Mr Peabody
02-14-2012, 08:56 PM
Klipsch made some fun and acceptable models but sonically not on par with EV or JBL.

E-stat I wasn't in the hobby in Altec's day but I have to wonder if you've heard the Array series in JBL? The horns used in the JBL Synthesis series are outstanding, very smooth. I wasn't a JBL fan until last year hearing the 1400's and much less expensive LS70's.

In audio there are always trade offs and you have to pick your priority. There is a certain liveliness horns bring to the music that I haven't heard matched by other designs. It brings that rawness, for lack of a better adjective, of a live show to the listening room. Well, exceptions to some extent would be the JBL Array or Klipsch Paladium which have almost tamed that aspect out, giving the horns more of refined delivery.

E-Stat
02-15-2012, 06:50 AM
I wasn't in the hobby in Altec's day...
I remember how disappointed I was when I first heard A7s. Hollow midrange, steely top end, with no real low end at all. Far from transparent.


but I have to wonder if you've heard the Array series in JBL?
I have not. I did, however, look them up.

Designed to Impress (http://www.jblpro.com/pages/tour/array.htm)

What you say about preferences is certainly true. As for me, I prefer speakers that are "designed to disappear". My reference point is using no speaker at all. Here you have yet another two way horn stretching the output of a large (14") woofer to reach a horn. The specs illustrate what I find to be their troubling characteristics: inconsistent directivity and poor driver blending at the crossover. Notice how they describe the response:

"Low Frequency Transducer:600 W AES, 50 Hz to 500 Hz
High Frequency Transducer: 75 W AES, 1kHz to 10kHz"

They may be "lively", but who needs the octave from 500 hz to 1khz anyway? :)

Joe Roberts
02-15-2012, 06:22 PM
Here is a pic of the third best horn system I heard last week.

This is a pair of Western Electric 15A with 555 drivers, covering 80hz to 7khz, WE 597A tweeters, and a mono sub with two EV30W and two Altec 515s, cut in below 70hz.

I was in Korea preparing this rig for Silbatone's exhibit at the Munich High End show. We will have to cut the 15As to fit them through the door at the show.

Do you think Paul Klipsch though K-Horns were the best when he had a collection of Western Electric theater gear?:lol:

I don't know what Peter Qvortrup was smoking when he said AN E are better than WE and Klangfilm theater gear. I had AN Es and I gave them away. I have no clue what kind of WE gear he had.

No way those AN boxes compete with a properly set up WE system to my taste, but I don't think it is even fair or reasonable to make the comparison.

AN E are OK box speakers but good horns can obliterate them in terms of emotional impact and musical involvement. And when you get into full range horns like the 15A, add coherence to the list.

My own peak audio experience is with pro gear worked into home applications: Large format Altec, WE, and Lansing field coil. It is a lot of work to get this stuff working right in the home and it is never a turnkey approach.

I can't name a modern high end speaker that replaces the pro stuff for me. Heard Musique Concrete horns for a few minutes at Munich last year. They were pretty good.

Most of the "high end audio" horn offerings are not of the top sonic rank, but, in fairness, none of the pro horns will win any home decorating awards! Home speakers are the art of the compromise for most of us, alas.

RGA
02-16-2012, 02:08 AM
Joe

I think you read Peter incorrectly - he noted that his all time favorites are not the AN E and noted this

"The treble and midrange on the Lowthers was one of the best I have ever encountered, and I have owned pretty much everything over the past 35 years, from Voigt's field coil driven horns, Tannoy's original 1950's Westminster's, Siemens Klangfilm and WE cinema systems to B&W DM70s, stacked Quad 57's, Beveridge System 2's, Acoustats, to Hill's Plasmatronics, Heil's full range AMT, Snell A/IIIs you name it, I have at some time or another had them all and what they all has taught me is not insubstantial.

I rate the Lowther PM4 system and the Siemens systems as the best overall, but they are domestically almost impossible unless you live in a mansion, and very few of us do, so something smaller is needed.
Which is why we are here!"

and "I still own a Beveridge System II, ESS Transar, Siemens Klangfilm system, several Snell Type A models and one of two more, and have over the years worked on and modified practically every vintage speaker system made."


But as he notes the best of these are domestically not feasible for the VAST VAST VAST majority of audiophiles - even the Altecs are very large and obtrusive for the normal sized apartment or home - the picture you just posted is illustration of that. The AN E Sec Silver Sig in a 200 square meter room (which is the max size room they recommend for the AN E) is as good as I have heard from anyone ever in such a living room. And I think they do better than most in considerably larger rooms as well. They don't compete in the dynamic ease department (though the new hemp higher efficiency alnico versions help immensely) with big horns - but they also don't have that honkiness that E-Stat notes. And that has been an issue with most every horn speaker that comes out. The best horns that I have heard which includes the one I heard from Silbatone at CES (The Aporia) are still BIG. Here in Hong Kong the two would have to touch each other to fit in the living room. So no matter how good the speaker is the room can't support them. So you look at something else that the room can support.

I have often described the AN E has a between the poles speakers - my favorite speakers have tended to be large horns and Panels (and single drivers) because both poles bring certain things to the table (but at the expense of the other) while the E is a compromise of sorts retaining much of what I like about horns and much of what I like about panels (but not to their degree but also not bringing the weaknesses to the fore) Which is a long way to say they're a superb all-rounder and why I can play any music on them - most rooms at shows I noted had a few recordings - play the same ones all day over and over because apparently they're afraid to play real music - just play what their speaker is good at playing.

Some people only listen to one genre of music in a narrow volume level - if the speaker does that well and that's what you listen to then great - but an all-rounder needs to play it all equally well. And I don't hear that from panels or horns - I heard the steely hardness of horns - but I get presence and a jump factor that no panel I have heard remotely captures - but I also get a holographic sound and staging and imaging and openness that arguably is peerless.


Emotional impact and musical involvement is somewhat subjective. Terms that people reading this discussion who have not heard the products in question will roll their eyes at. The system is also more than the loudspeaker - the AN E I have heard in a number of configuration with a number of amps from Audio Note and not from Audio Note (ditto for sources) and in a number of rooms. And IME they have topped the Emotional and musical involvement charts against their competition. But that goes out the window with some amps - and not just SS but some tube amps as well.

Their competition is not speakers designed for massive rooms however - for that you need speakers like the ones you posted.

But Audio Note tends to get a lot of reactions like the one from Wes Philips - over the course of the years I have read many such over the top reactions - and it is disproportionate to AN. I never read such reactions to say an AvanteGarde or B&W for example (I discount some magazines that I find have track records of lies or crookedness mind you).

But this is pretty over the top praise by one of their leading 3-4 reviewers and basically says there was only ONE system in the entire show that was worth listening to and you don't have to read between the lines to figure that out. Ongaku Means Ecstasy | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/ces2009/ongaku_means_ecstasy/index.html)

Joe Roberts
02-16-2012, 04:12 AM
I think you read Peter incorrectly

That could be...in which case the question becomes "What have I been smoking!":yesnod:

So are we talking about horns or box speakers here? To me, AN E are punk-out speakers for a horn lover. This is not to say that they are bad box speakers...they are definitely decent. And they work well in tandem with Audio Note gear so you can actually get a matched system out of the box. Audio Note makes reasonable stuff and they are ahead of the industry curve taste-wise in my estimation. But horns can best AN Es in my mind and for my ear.

I maintain that horns can work in medium rooms and I have done it successfully, I had 15 cell Altecs with a big Onken cab in an 18x25 room and it worked great. I still miss that system.

A Siemens/Klangfilm Eurodyn will fit in a medium room and provide much more presence and dynamic range than an AN E.

There are many horn solutions for small to medium rooms. No need to punk-out with silk dome tweeters and all that.

Honkiness is a drawback of BAD horns. Good horns have none of it. Honk disqualifies a horn from serious consideration. Move on.

Same with steely or mechanical overtones...junk it. Good horns are very detailed and natural.

I believe that many problems are caused by running the wrong cone high enough to mate with a small horn (like 1500hz) or putting the crossover smack in the middle of the vocal range in addition to pushing the woofer up beyond its optimal range. The LF is more tricky than the horn midrange in many implementations, especially in smaller-sized systems.

Quotes from famous reviewers don't impress me. Hey, I was a reviewer. I know lots of reviewers. Most of these guys don't have a clue as to the possibilities beyond the high end speaker marketplace. I am not trying to be flippant and harsh, but
most reviewers just don't know the world of vintage and pro horn technologies and topologies or the exotic DIY stuff and if they do they have to hide it for the job.

Some of the best reviewers seem to like all kinds of audio gear well enough to give it a shot. I used to but I can't do it anymore. I am a man of strong preferences and opinions, less so in real life than in print, but life is too short to traffic in inferior audio.

Is is true, at least, that the vast number of speaker products out there today tend to represent a narrow slice of possible technologies. Part of it is the need to have good looking, shippable products that can be sold to normal people. The other side is that success breeds success and copycat design is prevalent.

I will admit that I am totally spoiled by big setups that put all or most of the vocal range in one horn. This is not easy to pull off for a "product" but the alternative is super tricky as regards mating the drivers into a convincing musical whole. Rare is the woofer that will play smooth up to 1500 and hand off seamlessly to a compression midrange.

I think that the place to look for horn solutions is not Stereophile or Hot Springs, AR but DIY forums. Lots of guys are running horns in domestic spaces, good ones, and they are happy as clams.

The snobbish position of the DIY horn crowd is that high end audio is for beginners. The real story is that manufacturers work under constraints that the DIYers have abandoned or rejected. It is not an even playing field. DIY has the upper hand.

There seem to be a number of small manufacturers trying to do things right with horns and I am probably not giving these warriors due credit but that is only because I haven't heard their stuff.

Perhaps high end designers get too artistic with horns. Maybe they have to be industrial ugly to some degree in order to work!

I'll still stand by what I said when I started writing about horns 20+ years ago...most horns are bad horns, but a good one is the best speaker you can get.

Here is a pic of the best horn system heard last week. This is a WE 12A/13A system in Silbatone's new listening room. This is the FIRST generation of cinema speakers, c.1928. Super super rare. Probably worth more than my house, especially now that a dozen rich Korean audio madmen have heard it.

Aside from no bass below 80hz, this system truly sounds like a concert hall. I never heard anything like it. Jaw dropping. Riveting.

No, it is not practical in any way and barely possible to put together, but it has been accomplished.

The useable answer is somewhere between "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" and "Don't settle for a Bose mini system."

I am certain that most listening rooms can accommodate some form of good horn system, but you might not be able to go out and buy it. It will probably take some creativity and work and/or a large pile of cash. You have to be the type that will love the journey of research, exploration, and learning by doing.

Think of something like a Heresy but built with really good parts...then start inching bigger and bigger...and bigger...

frenchmon
02-16-2012, 05:10 AM
Sibatone Acoustics Reference 300....Silbatone Acoustics (http://www.silbatone.com)

http://www.silbatone.com/images/ampfront.gif


Made in Korea....and cost 30K

frenchmon
02-16-2012, 05:17 AM
http://forums.audioreview.com/attachments/speakers/8606d1329394549-horns-get-bad-rap-13agif.jpg


When I worked in the industry of commercial heating and cool, some of the heating/cooling blowers looked just like those horns. To me for audio....its a bit over kill. Just my opinion.

Joe Roberts
02-16-2012, 06:19 AM
.its a bit over kill. Just my opinion.

More like wretched excess, I would have to admit.

We are totally about overkill. After a certain point, it becomes a real challenge to progress but we can't go backwards now, can we?

Middling efforts yield middling results.

For me and the rest of the Silbatone team, ultra-extremist audio is an intellectual pursuit and a buzz-seeking adventure. How far can we go? What is possible?

I am not sure yet but it sure is fun trying to find out.

We also love to take this rare stuff out to shows and let people hear it, like a traveling museum exhibit.

Personally, I am happy with a lot less for myself, Most of my listening is on a Dell monitor sound bar while sitting at the computer. Hahaha!

Seriously, I can detach music enjoyment from audio almost entirely and enjoy whatever I am hearing unless it causes pain or discomfort. I have come full circle on audiophilia and recognize it for what it is.

I constantly work with systems that are too expensive and too big for me to hope to own, but that's cool. Experience and understanding mean more to me than ownership.

Right now, I am trying to plan and execute a small room horn system around a pair of nicely made mini-Altec 828 cabinets I bought on craigslist. Only 30" high. Take 12" woofs. They were somebody's one-of-a-kind DIY project 40 years ago. Looks like fun!

RGA
02-16-2012, 07:04 PM
Of course I agree with you Joe. The High End audio manufacturers are comproimised by the fact that they want to sell products. They are not making one-offs and the business aspect of the thing means you have to appeal to wider audiences. One offs tend to cost a tone of money which people don't have.

I think you need to distinguish between DIY - I have heard a lot of DIY gear versus similarly priced manufactured gear and didn't conclude it to be better. Perhaps because the DIYer isn't really objective because they've put so much of their time and "LOVE" into the build they think it's better than really is. Which is why when I audition it and have no attachment one way or the other I simply listen to the sound. For instance you can DIY with Audio Note by buying their kits - but they don't sound as good as the manufactured products. At least the speakers don't IME.

I do agree though that if you throw enough money at a one off solution you can get superior results but it's not practical for a manufacturer or a dealer.

And without dealers people won't be able to hear them. Buying DIY or kits unheard runs into my previously mentioned bias - person spends big money and lots of time - they will likely "love it" no matter what it sounds like - and with no direct comparison they will deem it a winner.

Certain companies that sell over the internet with free home trials bank on the same thing. The person buys it has it in their home with nothing to compare it to - they'll likely keep it proclaiming it's greatness. Soundhounds, my main dealer, for example bought the MMG speaker - and sells Magnepan - you can listen to the MMG BEFORE you order one. You can compare it to a bunch of other speakers of similar price in direct comparison. I didn't walk away thinking it was best in class - and that's because I had something to compare it with - not a home theater in a box from Wal-Mart.

Anyway - I loved the sound o fhte Aporia you guys brought to CES 2010 - I had it listed in the top 5 best rooms of the show (above $10K) so I do understand where you're coming from - I just wish there was a more practical and affordable sollution - because unfortunately the cheap horns don't really do horns justice.

I heard a giant Altec in South Korea when I taught there and they were quite good. Not Aporia good but good.

Joe Roberts
02-16-2012, 08:36 PM
Well that's the whole thing...are manufacturer's goals, pricing, and implementations the same as yours or close enough? If not, some venture into the murky waters of DIY.

Pure sonic performance is not the only satisfaction in audio. For me, nothing is more satisfying than building.

You might prefer manufactured gear to somebody else's DIY project, but as you noticed, they probably don't care what you like better! They are they one who get to listen to it.

That's why I always joke...Who cares what reviewers think? Who will be listening to your system? You or Anthony Cordesman?:smilewinkgrin:

With horn speakers, there are significant expenses that would incur to a commercial manufacturer trying to do it right. Good inducement to take the discount of using off the shelf pro parts or used vintage and fire up the saw.

Part of what we are trying to do with Silbatone is point out the limitations that high end takes for granted and give a peek beyond them. Sure, few can actually afford this stuff (including Silbatone's top line electronics) but that doesn't make it less significant as a learning experience.

The correct response to statements such as "Horns are steely" or "Horns sound honky" is "Not all of them, Bud!"

Not the good ones.

At the Munich show, where lots of very exotic manufacturers show up, we bring our benchmark, which happens to be 80 year old Western Electric speakers and let the people listen, learn, and decide.

The audio business is very very difficult. I believe that for certain classes of products, such as premium horn speakers, the able enthusiast is better off bypassing that commercial quagmire and taking matters into his own hands.

Maybe the industry is catching up. I hope so. The interest is certainly there.

RGA
02-16-2012, 10:51 PM
Well I agree with you again especially about reviewers - that's why I became one.

Thinking about this a little more I see that some DIY outfits will build the things for you for a fee.

Why doesn't someone resurrect these older designs. I was thinking of what Peter said he loved best - SET those Klangfilms Snell Type A etc. I get the "speakers for a small/med room" but why not have the Type A remake or WE remakes and sell those. Why not attract the people who love the sound but have no interest or ability or time to do the build.

Seems to me like there would be a market (a bigger one than DIY) to get into here. And while some of these speakers are very large - so is the Wilson MAXX 3. The Aporia ate it for breakfast at 2010 CES and they look better to boot. Oh and they cost less.

I guess I don't see why these speakers can't be manufactured and sold - if they were made in numbers the price would come down (economy of scale) and more people could afford them.

The horns/semi-horns I mentioned in my first post don't honk or shout and that illustrates to me the technology is superb. Those three speakers were three of the five in my top 5. I don't recall the price of the Aporia but the RA Box from Trenner and Freidl I think was the least expensive at $25,000.

It gets a little nuts for us commoners. I guess I'd like to see another Peter Q out there to come in and buy the rights to the WE speakers or other fine models and upgrade them wherever they need an upgrade and start selling them.

I think sound trumps looks for most audiophiles - IF they hear something truly great. But it took me living in South Korea or going to CES to hear these things. The average dealer just wants to sell a box with 6 inch woofers in an MDF cabinet and advertise diamonds and Kevlar or white papers.

PS: Even dirt cheap horns occasionally sound pretty good. I have a pair of Horn Wharfedale Vanguard floorstanders - basically an upgraded E-70. This was a mid-fi speaker but I maintained then and I still do that despite it's numerous problems it still had jump factor and an entertaining visceral sensation that was really quite fun to listen to. Compared to numerous $2-$5k so called hi-fi speakers from Paradigm, B&W, Klipsch - my argument was that when you spend more you should get more - and that means more of everything. I never understood why you would have a floorstander at $2000 that was pretty full range and then buy the $2500 standmount that has a better tweeter but no bass or dynamics. You spend and extra $500 - they should simply put the better tweeter into the floorstander - then you get better treble without losing 3 octaves. (But that's a whole other issue).

I think the other thing is that horns are typically high resolvers - and with most sources and amplification SUCKING the speakers tell you in great detail how bad the front end truly is. So in fact maybe some of those cheap horns are a little better than we think.

Anyway if you know of any of these "good" horn designs that would sell at retail under $10,000 let me know and I will try to find something to review.

The only good thing about reviews IMO is to bring lesser known gear to the attention of people buying in the mainstream. The big magazines require dealer networks (In other words you have to be mainstream to get a review).

I have tried to get Horns from very small makers that were very intriguing but the shipping costs to Canada were too much for him ($2000 each way - the speakers fer $2500 - so he is basically a local seller in the Eastern U.S.). The sad thing is the really interesting stuff is tough to find for the average audiophile and it's not that easy for reviewers. Reading John Marks - if a Stereophile writer has trouble getting stuff then I/we have little hope at dagogo.

Fortunately, I am now living in Hong Kong which spreads are review staff out a little more - and the Asian market seems to be a hotbed for off the beaten path gear. I'll try to make a trip over to Mongkok to see what they have.

Joe Roberts
02-17-2012, 01:09 AM
You can forget these sensible economic arguments. Yeah they look good on paper but don't work in practice. The audio market is too small and too weird. Run the numbers and an impossible number of sales is usually required to make everything fall into place.

One thing Audio Note knows is that expensive gear sells...in fact, it can be easier to sell than inexpensive gear. These days, people who have to scrape together $3k to buy aren't buying gear, they are buying food. Rich cats ALWAYS have money to spend. This is why most of audio seems dialed in on the 1%. They are the ones who can and do buy.

We sell all the Silbatone we want to make and it is very pricey stuff. We showed our $100,000 C-100 preamp in a store in Seoul for two weeks and sold seven of them, mostly to ex-FM Acoustics users. If we tooled up to make 1000 of them (at massive capital expense) and sold them for $50k, we would have 975 in stock after a year.

Totally senseless world.

Also, for most North American manufacturers, the real market is in Asia. Importers are more interested in high dollar gear with some profit in it, so that is what gets put on the boat. Once they got to Asia, luxury buyers wouldn't be interested because they are "too cheap." Big cheap horn speakers are a worst case product for this export distribution system.

The most viable business strategy is to play the game as it exists, leading to more of what we already have.

Silbatone is not trying to make a profit so we can play with the rules but for most makers it is a life and death struggle with little room for error.

Thank the gods for the small guys who take a chance, probably not entirely realizing what they are up against. That's where most of the interesting stuff happens and where most of the gear built with love originates.

The most encouraging point I can make is that fancy mainstream "magazine" audio is a shrinking fraction of what is going on out there. DIY and cottage industry is where the real action is, not to mention the FUN!

Most of the folks I hang out with haven't read an audio magazine in ten years or more...

Poultrygeist
02-17-2012, 03:24 PM
If my wife will give me the F.R.O.G. I'm building these suckers!

Dipole Fostex Front Horn - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6VlboT-sI&feature=related)

Ajani
02-17-2012, 03:38 PM
If my wife will give me the F.R.O.G. I'm building these suckers!

Dipole Fostex Front Horn - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eX6VlboT-sI&feature=related)

Those look kind of cool.

Joe Roberts
02-17-2012, 07:13 PM
Admin deleted my posts, so I'm outta here.

Have fun, y'all.

Joe

RGA
02-17-2012, 07:39 PM
Seriously - deleting the ENTIRE post - just delete the links or tell the person to edit their post. That's ridiculous.

Joe Roberts
02-17-2012, 07:50 PM
RGA, tell the mods. I couldn't agree more.

I put a link in my sig so people would know I am professionally engaged in audio, not to promote my products.

Many forums have a means to note if a poster is in the business, which is good to know.

Nobody around here is going to buy any Silbatone products, after all.

The posts were on-topic informational, not sales-oriented, and I think they contained some useful food for thought.

A total waste of my time and energy.

Joe

tube fan
02-17-2012, 09:54 PM
I thought the $80,000 Acapella horn was excellent, but no match for my decades old Fulton Js. The $15,000 Teresonic speaker was a match for my Fultons at moderate volume.

RGA
02-18-2012, 12:45 AM
Did you hear the speakers in direct comparison with the same electronics in the samesimilar room at the same volume level?

Yes you've said that about everything you've heard - nothing is as good as the Fulton J we get it but no one today can realistically go out and buy a set or audition a set to verify the claim.

There is unfortunately a practical aspect to consider. Joe Roberts was also talking about gear that very few people can get their hands on. I have heard a number of vintage products and I do agree that some of them compete quite well with current models - there are still people who claim the Quad 57 is still the best sounding model (for a panel).

Is this what you're talking about? I just don't see how the pictured speakers below will integrate seamlessly from bass to treble to the degree of a single driver Lowther / Teresonic. If it can beat every product going to today - I am surprised no one is making them - someone should start.

Edit: I did some reading on Robert Fulton and I liked the fact that he was one of the early people to realize the pitfalls of feedback in an audio system. The company stopped in 2006 - Is he still in the audio business?

JohnMichael
02-18-2012, 08:53 AM
Seriously - deleting the ENTIRE post - just delete the links or tell the person to edit their post. That's ridiculous.



I had asked him to delete the link which was part of his signature. Since the last upgrade we are unable to edit signatures so an admin will need to do it.

E-Stat
02-18-2012, 11:58 AM
I did some reading on Robert Fulton and I liked the fact that he was one of the early people to realize the pitfalls of feedback in an audio system. The company stopped in 2006 - Is he still in the audio business?
He was quite a character. HP tells a story of when Bob drove from Minnesohta to Sea Cliff to deliver some stuff for review. Harry was using Fulton Gold speaker cables with the IRS circa 1980.

I think Fulton is no longer with us.

RGA
02-18-2012, 05:19 PM
RGA, tell the mods. I couldn't agree more.

I put a link in my sig so people would know I am professionally engaged in audio, not to promote my products.

Many forums have a means to note if a poster is in the business, which is good to know.

Nobody around here is going to buy any Silbatone products, after all.

The posts were on-topic informational, not sales-oriented, and I think they contained some useful food for thought.

A total waste of my time and energy.

Joe

Yes AudioAsylum has an M for manufacturer - R for reviewer etc.

I think it's important to have the distinction listed so forumers know what advice they're getting and from whom.

But you know "Rules" they rarely look at things case by case. Although this rule seems odd becase you'd think audio forums would WANT manufacturers posting information on boards with different perspectives - so long as they're not advertising. Perhaps the issue is with the hyperlink but even then a person can spend all of 5 seconds to type in Silbatone on google and get to the same place anyway.

I found your posts to be quite excellent - so chalk it up to a system issue.

E-Stat
02-20-2012, 02:25 PM
Yes AudioAsylum has an M for manufacturer - R for reviewer etc.
My favorite sig is from Duke (M) over there (from whom I purchased my U1s):

"Me being a dealer makes you leery?? It gets worse... I'm a manufacturer too."

He's an open minded and super nice guy. He's one of many who like both horns and stats. :)

RGA
02-20-2012, 03:08 PM
Duke is the guy I tried to have send me one of his speakers - but the shipping costs were stupid. His Rythm Prism looked interesting to me at what appeared to be an affordable price

RGA
02-20-2012, 06:02 PM
Hey Tube Fan

the Audio Note attack thread on the General forum had me look over Peter's threads on AA and I found a small tidbit on Fulton being one of Peter's inspirations. Which may explain why you enjoyed the AN sound. Now I want to audition the Fulton's even more because I suspect due to the modular approach (which is similar to the Snell Type A) that it would be quite interesting.

"I know this short piece in no way goes into nearly enough depth, but I hope at least gives some idea, and lastly I would like to offer my gratitude to some of the people who have inspired me to follow this path, Donald Chave, the founder of Lowther, (with Paul A. G. H. Voigt and Peter Lowther, neither of whom I sadly ever met), Peter Snell and Kondo-san primarily, but also Bob Fulton, Guy Adams of Voyd, Peter Dunlop of Systemdek and many others too numerous to mention whose ideas and designs have inspired what I do." Still Wondering? - Peter Qvortrup - General Asylum (http://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=general&n=473174&highlight=Kondo+name+Peter+qvortrup&r=&search_url=%2Fcgi%2Fsearch.mpl%3Fauthor%3DAudio_Or phanage%26forum%3DALL%26sortRank%3DNone%26sort%3Dd ate%26sortOrder%3DDESC)

Burchill
03-14-2012, 03:18 PM
Kboihohi

carpetgy
03-25-2012, 01:38 PM
i have altec 811b pared with 802-8g drivers they sound good