Audiophile Priorities and Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons [Archive] - Audio & Video Forums

PDA

View Full Version : Audiophile Priorities and Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons



Woochifer
01-09-2012, 12:05 AM
As announced in the car talk thread (http://forums.audioreview.com/off-topic-non-audio/car-talk-im-looking-compact-hatch-37348.html), I got a new ride (first new car after 383k miles with an Acura Integra). I didn't give much thought to the car audio system, since I was more focused on how the cars drive, the budget, gas mileage, reliability record, and other features. When I decided on the Mazda3, I was basically forced to go with the Bose Centerpoint audio system since it was in the same option package with the sunroof.

I already posted a quasi review of the Mazda3 Bose system (http://forums.audioreview.com/375193-post34.html). Surprisingly good system overall, although Bose's processing circuitry, particularly the Centerpoint surround mode, makes the sound quality worse. Just speaks volumes about Bose that they designed a decent OEM audio system for the Mazda3, yet still tout the gimmickry that actually diminishes the audio performance.

Do Audiophiles Care About Car Audio?
And a couple of online publications also gave the Bose system in the Mazda3 high marks. One of these articles appeared in Positive Feedback, which is an online audiophile publication that doesn't normally review car audio equipment. The review of the Mazda3's Bose Centerpoint system included a very choice quote about audiophiles and car audio.

Positive Feedback: Issue 55 - Bose Centerpoint Car Audio System (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue55/bose.htm)


I've owned more home audio components than I can remember, but for some reason, never fussed much with the stuff in my car. I've always just checked the "premium sound" option box and lived with whatever stereo came from the factory. Some were good, some were bad, others made no lasting impression at all. With middle age fast approaching, the last thing I want is to sit in the waiting room of a car stereo installation shop alongside the cast from The Fast and The Furious....

Certainly, if you're reading this, you're not a typical Bose customer. Neither am I, really—except in this case. Bose customers are happy to pay a premium for unobtrusive simplicity and good sound straight from the box. That's me in a nutshell when it comes to car audio and based on an informal survey of my audiophile friends, it could be you, too. It seems that most of the car audio junkies I know have crappy mass-market systems at home while most audiophiles live with whatever their car comes with. There are exceptions, even some on our staff, but if you've ever been stopped next to a booming 1993 Honda Civic coupe with tinted windows, you realize that most car audio buffs aren't really looking for the same virtues we are.

I'm inclined to agree with the author. I don't know any audiophiles that fuss nearly as much with their car audio systems, and in fact, most of the discussions over the years on this board tend to refer to the entire car audio segment as a derogatory comparison. Most audio enthusiasts I know will generally go with the factory-installed system, or go with some modest upgrades on their own. I've done my own car speaker replacements, but that's about it. Conversely, I don't know anyone with a tricked out car audio system that obsesses much over their home audio setup.

Factory-Installed Car Audio System Comparisons
With that in mind, Edmunds (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/)seems to be one of the few online car review sites that actually reviews the factory-installed audio systems using similar criteria to a home audio review. They have a standard set of review discs and use RTA measurements to confirm the observed listenings.

In a comparison of premium audio systems for budget cars, Edmunds actually ranked the Mazda 3 Bose Centerpoint system first. Yes, it surprised me too.

Comparison Test of Six Budget Premium Audio Systems - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/comparison-test-of-six-budget-premium-audio-systems.html)

Results - Car/Premium Audio Brand (Score 1=headache-inducing; 10=best to expect from a budget vehicle)

1. Mazda3/Bose (7.0)
2. Mini Cooper Hardtop/Harmon Kardon (5.7)
3. Volkswagen Golf TDI/Dynaudio (4.9)
4. Nissan Sentra Spec V/Rockford Fosgate (4.7)
5. Toyota Corolla XRS/JBL (3.3)
6. Scion xB/Alpine (2.7)

The results were a surprising because I would have expected the VW Dynaudio system to score higher. Just goes to show that sometimes expectations don't always measure up.

Edmunds also conducted a comparison test of premium factory-installed audio systems for luxury cars. Here are their results.

High-End Stock Stereo Sound-Off - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/high-end-stock-stereo-sound-off.html)

1. Acura TL/ELS (8.5)
2. Lexus LS 460/Mark Levinson (8.0)
3. Hyundai Genesis/Lexicon (7.3)
4. Infiniti M45/Bose (7.1)
5. Aston Martin DBS Volante/Bang & Olufsen (6.9)
6. Jaguar XFR/Bowers & Wilkins (6.0)

The high end comparison is a bit outdated now because some of these systems came with DVD-Audio capability. The Acura system is actually intriguing because it was custom designed by Eliot Scheiner, who's one of the premier 5.1 music mixers in the industry. I have yet to hear any of B&W's car audio systems, but it surprised me to see their Jaguar system ranked dead last.

blackraven
01-09-2012, 11:22 AM
I appreciate a good stereo in my car and have replaced stock sound systems in the past. The problem that I have found with car audio is that if the road noise in the car is loud then a high end system is wasted.

Feanor
01-09-2012, 12:40 PM
I have low expectations of car audio. I suppose it started back in '82 when I spend a fair buck to retrofit what I hoped to better-than-stock system install in my Chev Malibu. It was highly disappointing.

Today I rarely listen to anything but a little radio in the car, and that is anything but serious listening. I wouldn't spend a dime to upgrade my car system; if a better system were to come in some option package I wanted for other reasons, then fine.

eisforelectronic
01-09-2012, 04:44 PM
The best sounding stock car system I've heard was in a Volvo.

blackraven
01-09-2012, 06:54 PM
The thing about stock higher end audio systems is that many of them are specifically tuned for that model car. The system in my 2009 Maxima is excellent, it probably is a Bose. It has a sub, separate tweeters and full range speakers.

Ajani
01-09-2012, 07:07 PM
I assume there are at least 2 reasons for this situation:

1) The way audiophiles listen to music - Often as an activity by itself. Versus most others as background music while they do other things - So driving (travelling) maybe the only time they listen to music.

2) $$$$$$$$ - Money spent tricking out my car stereo is money that I could have spent on my main system. So since I don't do my major listening in the car, then it doesn't need a great system.

RGA
01-10-2012, 07:52 AM
It's about road and wind noise - My Rondo was quite quiet and had I stayed in Canada I was planning to make a major upgrade to the car system - This was the only vehicle I have ever had that I think I could something in a big way. The fact that it was a mini-van (sort of) helped and that roads in B.C. are generally speaking high quality on the noise front - unlike the roads in L.A back when I made the drive there.

I did replace my car system with the Civic with an Alpine CD player (but back then 1996 - they were $600 and was considered the top brand for this stuff. Also bought Mordaunt Short speakers. And a sub was coming but I ended up selling it and went back to University to change my career trajectory away from Accounting to teaching.

I would never underestimate the importance of car audio - for many people this is their time to listen to music - because when they get home the girlfriend wife wants to go out or watch a movie or you have to help the kids with homework or take them to some sporting event etc. That hour in the commute each way is the time to listen.

And generally speaking car audio is cheaper to get to a very good point (good for a car audio system anyway). The guy across the street from me put $15,000 into his car stereo - a Volkswagon Golf. You needed headphones to protect your ears from blowing. Now that was a loud system!:12:

The repair guy at Soundhounds does custom car installs - They carry interesting decks - Nakamichi is still making them and seemed to be the deck of choice by the fellow. It is lighter on features than some though but for those of us with those mid 90s decks will appreciate the simple operation. Although I liked the Sony deck I had in my Toyota - for $119 it ran the iPod and was easy to use. The stupid blue LED was a bit too bright and at night it would reflect off the windshield - so if you ever get one try and find one with a dimmer or colour selection so that it will match your instrumentation.

Woochifer
01-10-2012, 08:44 PM
I have low expectations of car audio. I suppose it started back in '82 when I spend a fair buck to retrofit what I hoped to better-than-stock system install in my Chev Malibu. It was highly disappointing.

Today I rarely listen to anything but a little radio in the car, and that is anything but serious listening. I wouldn't spend a dime to upgrade my car system; if a better system were to come in some option package I wanted for other reasons, then fine.

During that era, the stock OEM car audio systems were almost uniformly horrible. You pretty much had to go aftermarket to get anything remotely decent sounding, and even there a lot of the component quality fell way short of even a decent boombox. Bose was the first manufacturer to produce a custom designed car audio for specific models (I believe the Corvette was the first car to offer the Bose systems). But, I recall those systems as also sounding mediocre compared to a good aftermarket system. It wasn't until at least the early-90s that a lot more interesting "premium" OEM car audio systems became available.

The current choices with premium audio systems is mind-boggling by comparison, and the quality of the equipment used in these systems is often comparable to good aftermarket gear. What amazes me is the number of higher end audio manufacturers that now make branded OEM car audio systems, but don't sell any other components to the aftermarket car audio trade.


The thing about stock higher end audio systems is that many of them are specifically tuned for that model car. The system in my 2009 Maxima is excellent, it probably is a Bose. It has a sub, separate tweeters and full range speakers.

Judging by what I've seen with the Bose system in my Mazda (I've seen pictures of the components used in the system), the customization of the system makes up for a lot of the deficiencies in the individual components. For example, the subwoofer on my setup only uses a 5.25" paper/foam woofer. The speakers themselves also don't look all that substantial. But, there are 10 speakers in the system, and they are actually well situated and together sound pretty good. Would not surprise me if the other premium systems similarly use cabin optimized positioning while not necessarily using top quality components.


I assume there are at least 2 reasons for this situation:

1) The way audiophiles listen to music - Often as an activity by itself. Versus most others as background music while they do other things - So driving (travelling) maybe the only time they listen to music.

Well, the mobile audio market is actually more than twice as big as the home audio component, even after you remove the OEM installations. I don't think people listening in their cars are necessarily listening as background, it's really their primary time to listen to music. And sales for portable music players are more than triple the sales for home audio components. Put together, I think you can see that music-on-the-go is more the norm than anything.

To get an idea of how much bigger the car audio market is, you just need to look at the number of home audio retailers versus car audio. In smaller towns, you will often find car audio dealers, but no home audio retailers for many miles away. The retail support is also different in that car audio vendors can make their money through installation services, whereas it's more difficult for a home audio retailer, since fewer home audio customers will opt for the more profitable installation services.


2) $$$$$$$$ - Money spent tricking out my car stereo is money that I could have spent on my main system. So since I don't do my major listening in the car, then it doesn't need a great system.

You're probably right, and I think someone that prioritizes their car audio system would feel the same way about spending on their home setup.

Ajani
01-10-2012, 09:59 PM
Well, the mobile audio market is actually more than twice as big as the home audio component, even after you remove the OEM installations. I don't think people listening in their cars are necessarily listening as background, it's really their primary time to listen to music. And sales for portable music players are more than triple the sales for home audio components. Put together, I think you can see that music-on-the-go is more the norm than anything.

To get an idea of how much bigger the car audio market is, you just need to look at the number of home audio retailers versus car audio. In smaller towns, you will often find car audio dealers, but no home audio retailers for many miles away. The retail support is also different in that car audio vendors can make their money through installation services, whereas it's more difficult for a home audio retailer, since fewer home audio customers will opt for the more profitable installation services.



You're probably right, and I think someone that prioritizes their car audio system would feel the same way about spending on their home setup.

Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).

As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.

Feanor
01-11-2012, 06:34 AM
Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).

As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.
I'm with you, Ajani. Spending big bucks on car stereo is fairly incomprensible to me. Maybe I'd feel differently if I drove long distances but that is rare for me. I think your right that people who prioritize their car systems are watching TV sports or videos at home. And/or they get more peer envy on account their car stuff.

I often listen to music with a lot of concentration -- driving or exercising are too distracting for serious listening, (or ought they ought to be :eek6:). I often listen to my iPod while taking exercise but it's background for sure; come to that, I more often listen to talk podcasts.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 12:21 PM
Perhaps "background music" is not the right term, but the point is that most persons won't devote time to listening to music in the way music lovers tend to.

I'm not convinced that all the persons listening to music in their cars or while jogging or at the gym are really music lovers. I suspect that for many of them, if they could watch a movie or play a video game instead they would (but doing so while driving, jogging or working out is not feasible).

I think you're now crossing the line and getting into arbitrary labeling. I don't agree at all that "music lovers" should automatically be equated as people who listen to music at home and people who listen on the go are not "music lovers."

I look at the mobile and personal audio market as a natural progression of trends that have been ongoing for more than 50 years (or more than 100 years, if you count the advent of recorded music). Music has continually been trending towards portability and listening on-the-go. This goes all the way back to the days of portable record changers, and then onward to boomboxes, Walkmans, and now iPods.

If anything, this trend now allows people to take their music with them, without any restraints. People who are passionate about music no longer have to leave it behind when they go out. It's actually liberating, because music consumption no longer has any barriers. I've long stated that the iPod/MP3 player is revolutionary simply because it allows people to bring their entire music collection with them no matter where they go. That's something taken for granted nowadays, but absolutely mindblowing compared to where we were less than 20 years ago, having to decide which tapes/CDs to take with us when going out.

Keep in mind that recorded music was greeted with similar derision by "music lovers" who claimed that the only real way to enjoy music was via live performance.


As for the $$$$ part - I agree. I remember some friends of mine asking me why I wasted money on a home stereo instead of tricking out a car stereo. Those persons would never dream of playing music while at home - there are so many better things to do.

With the newer OEM car audio systems, I'm not nearly as inclined to spend more money on aftermarket upgrades. When I was growing up, the performance gap between a component-based home audio system and OEM car audio systems was huge. For me, it was simply ensuring that my favorite music didn't get butchered beyond recognition when I was listening on-the-go. With most current OEM car audio systems, that gap is not nearly as huge and that system is already paid for when you buy a new car.


I'm with you, Ajani. Spending big bucks on car stereo is fairly incomprensible to me. Maybe I'd feel differently if I drove long distances but that is rare for me. I think your right that people who prioritize their car systems are watching TV sports or videos at home. And/or they get more peer envy on account their car stuff.

I'm not so sure about that. I think people who pay through the nose for a car audio system are simply on the go a lot more, and likelier to live in apartments where a full range home audio system is less practical.

I shelled out about $800 for my first car audio system, which actually cost more than my home system. Part of it was because I was a student/apartment dweller, so a full range system was impractical. The other part though was it took that kind of a budget to get acceptable sound quality in a car system back then (and I had to pay for installation), which is not the case nowadays with most OEM car audio systems.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 12:39 PM
I appreciate a good stereo in my car and have replaced stock sound systems in the past. The problem that I have found with car audio is that if the road noise in the car is loud then a high end system is wasted.


It's about road and wind noise - My Rondo was quite quiet and had I stayed in Canada I was planning to make a major upgrade to the car system - This was the only vehicle I have ever had that I think I could something in a big way.

Good points on the road and wind noise. I seem to be perfectly fine with how OEM systems will adjust the volume with the car speed. My first impressions of Bose's Audiopilot setup are that the system's way overengineered (using a microphone and 8 EQ channels to continually adjust the levels in real time) for what it delivers.

I remember all the rave reviews of the Nakamichi premium system on the original Lexus LS400. I wasn't overly impressed, especially considering that it was IIRC about a $2k upgrade. I think the Nakamichi system benefited greatly from Toyota's almost fanatical efforts to reduce the interior noise on that Lexus model, so the audio performance was "improved" by simple reduction in background noise.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of cars that are too quiet, because I prefer to maintain some connection to the outside world when I'm driving. IMO, those sensory-deprivation-chambers-on-wheels either attract lousy drivers or create them. :mad2:


The fact that it was a mini-van (sort of) helped and that roads in B.C. are generally speaking high quality on the noise front - unlike the roads in L.A back when I made the drive there.

Most of the freeways in California were originally built using concrete, which is far more durable than asphalt but also a lot noisier. The newer asphalt compounds are even quieter than before, so anything repaved/resurfaced recently is going to be much quieter.

Ajani
01-11-2012, 02:13 PM
I think you're now crossing the line and getting into arbitrary labeling. I don't agree at all that "music lovers" should automatically be equated as people who listen to music at home and people who listen on the go are not "music lovers." .

That's not what I said. I'm just not convinced that most of the persons who listen on the go are music lovers.

I also don't believe that every person with a home stereo (even expensive audiophile gear) is a music lover. Lots of audiophiles are, IMO, more in love with gear than with listening to music.


I look at the mobile and personal audio market as a natural progression of trends that have been ongoing for more than 50 years (or more than 100 years, if you count the advent of recorded music). Music has continually been trending towards portability and listening on-the-go. This goes all the way back to the days of portable record changers, and then onward to boomboxes, Walkmans, and now iPods.

If anything, this trend now allows people to take their music with them, without any restraints. People who are passionate about music no longer have to leave it behind when they go out. It's actually liberating, because music consumption no longer has any barriers. I've long stated that the iPod/MP3 player is revolutionary simply because it allows people to bring their entire music collection with them no matter where they go. That's something taken for granted nowadays, but absolutely mindblowing compared to where we were less than 20 years ago, having to decide which tapes/CDs to take with us when going out.

Keep in mind that recorded music was greeted with similar derision by "music lovers" who claimed that the only real way to enjoy music was via live performance.

I have no issue with listening to music on the go. I think the iPod changed the music world in a positive way. I have used a music server as my exclusive source since around 2007, so I truly appreciate what the growth in portable music has done for the music world.


I'm not so sure about that. I think people who pay through the nose for a car audio system are simply on the go a lot more, and likelier to live in apartments where a full range home audio system is less practical.

I don't agree with that. It maybe true for some persons. But I've known so many persons who lived in the same area and worked at the same firm as me, who chose car stereo and ipods over home stereos. Why? Because they were not interested in listening to music at home. Home was time for TV, movies and games. I do not regard those persons as music lovers.

E-Stat
01-11-2012, 02:53 PM
Most audio enthusiasts I know will generally go with the factory-installed system...
although I have a TL with the 5.1 ELS system. It came with a 5.1 DVD-A demo disk, but in the eight years I've owned the car, I've never listened to it. Don't care that much. Most of my car listening is to XM radio anyway. It's the variety, not the sound quality that is most important to me in a compromised car environment.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 04:17 PM
Scanning over those Edmunds comparison test rankings, I noticed just how much of the premium OEM car audio market seems to have gone over to Harman International. A Sound & Vision article from a few years ago indicated that OEM car audio systems accounted for 75% of Harman's total revenue, which is astounding when you consider the many niches in the home and pro audio markets where they rank among the sales leaders. It just demonstrates how huge the mobile audio market is.

The brands that fall under the Harman umbrella, and supply OEM car audio systems for the premium market include Harman/Kardon, JBL, Infinity, Mark Levinson, and Lexicon. In addition, B&W entered into a partnership with Harmon to jointly develop car audio systems for the OEM market.

In some ways, this is easy money for both the car maker and the OEM vendor. Once the vendor is selected and the car audio system is designed, then the OEM vendor is guaranteed thousands of unit sales with one transaction. And the car maker can bundle the audio system into high priced option packages, and leverage the brand cachet of the OEM vendor to upsell those option packages.

The irony here is that the reputations for Mark Levinson, Lexicon, Dynaudio, B&W, et al. were made in the home audio market. And it's really that reputation that they are marketing in order to sell car audio systems.

However, you don't see much of the reverse situation, where well-regarded car audio specialists try to expand into home audio. Part of it is the fact that the home audio market is considerably smaller, yet has a lot more companies competing for pieces of a smaller pie. The other part is simply that a good reputation in the car audio market probably works against a company if they try marketing to the home audio market. The example I can think of is Monsoon, which made its reputation in the car audio market and became a premium audio option for a lot of GM models (I recall that they replaced Bose as the upgrade option for the Camaro). Monsoon proceeded to introduce a floorstanding home speaker with planar ribbon high/mid drivers and dynamic woofers. The speakers sold for $1,200 a pair (quite low for a planar magnetic/dynamic hybrid speaker) and received decent reviews, but because Monsoon was viewed as a "car speaker" company, a lot of audiophiles never gave them a chance. Monsoon has since gone through ownership changes, and is now basically defunct.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 04:41 PM
That's not what I said. I'm just not convinced that most of the persons who listen on the go are music lovers.

But, based on that standard, I think the same would be true for people who don't listen on the go. There are plenty of people out there who just don't care about music, regardless of where they do most of their listening. Again, I think you're trying to slap an arbitrary label on people, based strictly on where they do their primary listening. I mean, how is someone who followed the Grateful Dead around the country and listened to bootlegs on cassette tapes any less of a music lover than some guy with 8,000 songs on a computer server at home?


I also don't believe that every person with a home stereo (even expensive audiophile gear) is a music lover. Lots of audiophiles are, IMO, more in love with gear than with listening to music.

Very true.


I don't agree with that. It maybe true for some persons. But I've known so many persons who lived in the same area and worked at the same firm as me, who chose car stereo and ipods over home stereos. Why? Because they were not interested in listening to music at home. Home was time for TV, movies and games. I do not regard those persons as music lovers.

And I know plenty of people who are some of the most dedicated music fans around, and they could care less about their home system. Why? Because they spend more of their time attending live music events, and on the go than anything. They never invested in an expensive home entertainment system because that wasn't where they spent most of their time.

Until I got married, that applied to me as well. I loved music, loved audio, but didn't bother spending a lot on my home audio system because I was hardly ever home. And living in a flat with roommates and neighbors on all sides also meant that an upgraded home audio system was more of a wasted investment since I could never turn the volume up without someone complaining. And just because someone watches TV or videos at home, to me that says nothing about how much they love music, because it's not an either/or choice. Need to remember all of the lifestyle considerations before painting these broad brushes about who loves music and who doesn't.

Ajani
01-11-2012, 05:39 PM
But, based on that standard, I think the same would be true for people who don't listen on the go. There are plenty of people out there who just don't care about music, regardless of where they do most of their listening. Again, I think you're trying to slap an arbitrary label on people, based strictly on where they do their primary listening. I mean, how is someone who followed the Grateful Dead around the country and listened to bootlegs on cassette tapes any less of a music lover than some guy with 8,000 songs on a computer server at home?



Very true.



And I know plenty of people who are some of the most dedicated music fans around, and they could care less about their home system. Why? Because they spend more of their time attending live music events, and on the go than anything. They never invested in an expensive home entertainment system because that wasn't where they spent most of their time.

Until I got married, that applied to me as well. I loved music, loved audio, but didn't bother spending a lot on my home audio system because I was hardly ever home. And living in a flat with roommates and neighbors on all sides also meant that an upgraded home audio system was more of a wasted investment since I could never turn the volume up without someone complaining. And just because someone watches TV or videos at home, to me that says nothing about how much they love music, because it's not an either/or choice. Need to remember all of the lifestyle considerations before painting these broad brushes about who loves music and who doesn't.

Just to make sure my point is clear:

A music lover doesn't need to own a home stereo. Someone who would rather play a guitar than put on a CD is a music lover. Someone who attends lots of live concerts but doesn't own a stereo in any form is likely a music lover as well. Someone who only listens to music on an iPod or a car stereo can be a music lover.

My issue is that I'm not convinced that the majority of persons listening solely on their car stereos or on their iPod (while jogging) are really music lovers. It's not meant to be an insult to those persons. I don't call myself a movie or TV buff / cinephile or whatever the term is just because I watch Movies or TV when convenient. I really don't regard those activities as my hobbies.

You may regard it as arbitrary labelling, but I see a distinction between someone who is really into a hobby and someone who will engage in an activity mainly because it is convenient. I might watch an occasional football match (real football not American), but my cousins who have favourite teams, know all the players and never miss a match are actual football fans. This is like my distinction with the term music lover.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 10:49 PM
Just to make sure my point is clear:

A music lover doesn't need to own a home stereo. Someone who would rather play a guitar than put on a CD is a music lover. Someone who attends lots of live concerts but doesn't own a stereo in any form is likely a music lover as well. Someone who only listens to music on an iPod or a car stereo can be a music lover.

And to that point, I agree with you.


My issue is that I'm not convinced that the majority of persons listening solely on their car stereos or on their iPod (while jogging) are really music lovers.

But, why is this even an issue? You are presuming that you can gauge someone's level of interest based on where or how they do their primary listening. I'm simply saying that you're painting with a really broad brush here. And if this applies to people who listen on car stereos and iPods, would it not also apply to people who listen at home?


It's not meant to be an insult to those persons. I don't call myself a movie or TV buff / cinephile or whatever the term is just because I watch Movies or TV when convenient. I really don't regard those activities as my hobbies.

But, why does it have to be an either/or proposition? You're not a cinephile simply because you don't regard yourself as one. No other reason, you're just not that into movies, which is fine and entirely your choice.

Your points though seem to presume that someone else cannot be into both music and movies, that if they spent time watching movies at home, then it diminishes their love of music. I just don't accept that premise.


You may regard it as arbitrary labelling, but I see a distinction between someone who is really into a hobby and someone who will engage in an activity mainly because it is convenient. I might watch an occasional football match (real football not American), but my cousins who have favourite teams, know all the players and never miss a match are actual football fans. This is like my distinction with the term music lover.

Why can't hobbies be convenient, or as I'd rather phrase it, ubiquitous? Like I said, people having their music with them at all times in all places actually allows them to integrate music into their life, rather than forcing them to take time out of their life for music's sake. I thought that music was about enjoyment, that the music was supposed to serve the listener rather than the other way around. The degree of servitude to the music playback IMO has no bearing on how much someone actually likes music. That's why I see this as an arbitrary distinction.

Woochifer
01-11-2012, 11:52 PM
The upgrade conundrum!

Reading up a little bit more on the Bose audio system on my Mazda3 just reminds me of why I'm no fan of theirs. Basically, I'm stuck with this system, and I knew I would be when I decided that I had to have a sunroof.

If I should ever decide to upgrade the system, I would need to swap out nearly every component, and it's no simple task to simply upgrade the speakers. For one thing, the speakers that Bose uses are apparently 0.5 to 1.0 ohms impedance, and the digital amp that Bose pairs with these speakers will supposedly shut down if it detects a higher impedance speaker (most car audio speakers I'm familiar with are rated at 4 ohms nominal impedance). What confounding is that Bose seems to be using common sizes and mounting depths with their speakers, so swapping out drivers would otherwise be simple.

This is the exact same asinine proprietary loop that Bose uses with their home theater systems. If you buy a Bose Lifestyle system, you can't use the speakers with any other system unless you buy a separate $100 wire harness.


This guy is doing his own system build replacing a Bose system. I think he's taking the long way home! LOTS of good pictures though if anyone wants to take a look at the drivers that Bose uses in the Mazda systems.

ETERNAL's 2010 MS3 SYSTEM BUILD LOG***UPDATE 13 DECEMBER PAGE 6...COMPLETED*** (http://www.mazda3forums.com/index.php?topic=158293.0)

http://i24.photobucket.com/albums/c25/nick120580/Mazda/System%20Build/PA181782.jpg


After a week with the Bose system, the only real weakness I've observed with the base audio performance is with the center speaker. The speaker uses a 3.25" driver and it's mounted in the dashboard and pointed straight up at an angle that reflects off of a plastic overhang. The center speaker is wired in parallel with the L/R channels, so it's on all the time with no way of adjusting the level. The timbre mismatch is noticeable, especially when the Audiopilot surround mode is engaged (which is why I prefer to leave it off). Since I know where the center speaker is mounted, I might see if it's possible to disconnect it.

Makes me wonder if other premium car audio systems are designed the same way, with proprietary components that cannot be readily upgraded.

Ajani
01-12-2012, 01:20 AM
And to that point, I agree with you.



But, why is this even an issue? You are presuming that you can gauge someone's level of interest based on where or how they do their primary listening. I'm simply saying that you're painting with a really broad brush here. And if this applies to people who listen on car stereos and iPods, would it not also apply to people who listen at home?



But, why does it have to be an either/or proposition? You're not a cinephile simply because you don't regard yourself as one. No other reason, you're just not that into movies, which is fine and entirely your choice.

Your points though seem to presume that someone else cannot be into both music and movies, that if they spent time watching movies at home, then it diminishes their love of music. I just don't accept that premise.



Why can't hobbies be convenient, or as I'd rather phrase it, ubiquitous? Like I said, people having their music with them at all times in all places actually allows them to integrate music into their life, rather than forcing them to take time out of their life for music's sake. I thought that music was about enjoyment, that the music was supposed to serve the listener rather than the other way around. The degree of servitude to the music playback IMO has no bearing on how much someone actually likes music. That's why I see this as an arbitrary distinction.

Whether someone is a "music lover" by my definition or not isn't an issue. I bring it up merely as part of the discussion of this topic. My feeling is that if you only listen to music when on the go, then why would you invest in a home stereo? On the other hand, if like most audiophiles you take time out of your day to sit an enjoy music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned with the sound quality of your "on the go" system.

And yes you can have more than one hobby. However, I can't think of many cinephiles who only watch a movie if they're on a train or plane (commuting). Generally they make time for that hobby. I could call myself a football fan because I watch the occasional match, but I shouldn't be surprised when the hardcore fans dismiss my claim of being a fan.

Nothing wrong with convenience. I prefer a music server to a CD player because it is more convenient. However, even if it wasn't convenient I'd still make the effort to listen to music.

IMO, A music lover with an iPod tends to have it on most of the day. The person who only picks up their nano when it's time to go jogging, just doesn't seem to be a music lover to me. The guy who wears his iPod most of the day, might be willing to invest in a home stereo. The one who only wears it when jogging, won't even consider a stereo.

That is the point of the distinction. If you only listen to music while commuting then you are not going to be interested in a Home Stereo. If you dedicate time to listening to music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned about having higher quality sound on the go.

RGA
01-12-2012, 02:05 AM
It's funny you mention stock stereos because that was actually the main reason I bought a Honda Civic over a Mazda something or other (it was the one designed by a woman) - looked cool to me at the time and was around the same price.

But Mazda was and still is a bit of a pain in the neck when it comes to their "bundles" I want the 5c engine then you have to also buy the 6 speaker stereo system at X price - but I don't want to buy the stereo system I just want the 5c engine well I am sorry Mr. Austen you must pay the $1000 for the upgraded stereo.

So I went to Honda - Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the Civic with a radio, with a radio/CD player or with nothing. Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the air conditioner and ONLY the air conditioner - you also don't have to get the moonroof package.

I hate that stuff. let me have the damn thing the way I want the damn thing. Not that it matters - I am so damn happy to not own a money pit car anymore - and I hope I keep liking it here because if so I will never buy another bloody car again!

Woochifer
01-12-2012, 10:16 AM
Whether someone is a "music lover" by my definition or not isn't an issue. I bring it up merely as part of the discussion of this topic. My feeling is that if you only listen to music when on the go, then why would you invest in a home stereo? On the other hand, if like most audiophiles you take time out of your day to sit an enjoy music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned with the sound quality of your "on the go" system.

And I think that's a valid point, which is part of the reason why I started this topic.


And yes you can have more than one hobby. However, I can't think of many cinephiles who only watch a movie if they're on a train or plane (commuting). Generally they make time for that hobby.

Problem with comparing audio with video is that you're talking about two very different markets and patterns of consumption. Audio has consistently been trending in the direction of portability for decades, and only requires one sense to fully enjoy. Portable and mobile devices are actually the primary method for music listening, largely because it's possible to integrate music into any number of lifestyles.

Video OTOH has been trending towards larger screens and higher resolution. The primacy of home viewing is actually more dominant now than it was a decade ago. Even though video can now be consumed on the go, every study done over the last few years has found that the vast majority of viewing time still occurs at home and just the growth in TV viewing time is more than the total average viewing time for mobile video content.

It takes both visual and auditory senses to fully take in video content, which makes it fundamentally different from audio. Also, most songs are 5 minutes long or less, while video content requires a longer time commitment. In addition, movies are also viewed in theaters, whereas recorded music is not consumed in that kind of a group environment. Just a lot of fundamental differences.


IMO, A music lover with an iPod tends to have it on most of the day. The person who only picks up their nano when it's time to go jogging, just doesn't seem to be a music lover to me. The guy who wears his iPod most of the day, might be willing to invest in a home stereo. The one who only wears it when jogging, won't even consider a stereo.

That is the point of the distinction. If you only listen to music while commuting then you are not going to be interested in a Home Stereo. If you dedicate time to listening to music at home, then you're less likely to be concerned about having higher quality sound on the go.

But, again these all seem like very arbitrary definitions you're making here. You're trying to draw correlations where I just don't think they exist. A music lover to me is someone simply who defines themselves as such. How they access their music to me is irrelevant, so long as enjoy it and seek it out. Making presumptions based on whether someone picks up an iPod for jogging or listens to music during a commute just seems like a pointless exercise because you really don't know that person's actual mindset and attitude towards the music.

Woochifer
01-12-2012, 10:44 AM
It's funny you mention stock stereos because that was actually the main reason I bought a Honda Civic over a Mazda something or other (it was the one designed by a woman) - looked cool to me at the time and was around the same price.

But Mazda was and still is a bit of a pain in the neck when it comes to their "bundles" I want the 5c engine then you have to also buy the 6 speaker stereo system at X price - but I don't want to buy the stereo system I just want the 5c engine well I am sorry Mr. Austen you must pay the $1000 for the upgraded stereo.

So I went to Honda - Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the Civic with a radio, with a radio/CD player or with nothing. Yes Mr. Austen you can buy the air conditioner and ONLY the air conditioner - you also don't have to get the moonroof package.

I hate that stuff. let me have the damn thing the way I want the damn thing. Not that it matters - I am so damn happy to not own a money pit car anymore - and I hope I keep liking it here because if so I will never buy another bloody car again!

Yeah, Mazda is definitely notorious for locking their options down into these arbitrary packages. But, a lot of it is their own fault because, with the Mazda3 at least, they proliferate the drivetrain options like crazy (do you want the 2.0L MZR, 2.0L Skyactiv, 2.3L DISI Turbo, or 2.5L MZR engine? And do you want the 5-speed automatic, 6-speed stick, 6-speed Skyactiv-D, or 6-speed Skyactiv-MT?). Supposedly 2012 is a transitional year for them, and a couple of the engine choices will disappear next year.

I know that Mazda has to streamline their production more than other companies because 1) they are a smaller company with less production capacity; and 2) they still make most of their cars in Japan, and the exchange rate on the yen is killing them right now. One of the easiest ways of streamlining production is to limit the option combos.

With the Skyactiv Mazda3 that I got, the only option for the Touring version is the sunroof/Bose package -- can't have one without the other. If I want to add leather seats and navigation, then it's another $1,500 to upgrade to the Grand Touring model.

Honda also does its own fair share of bundling, but they allow more a la carte optioning because more of their equipment is dealer installed.

Ford throws the entire option menu open. You can choose a package or pick just a certain feature. But, that actually made it more difficult to find a car with the option combination I wanted, since I was purposely looking for a Focus that did not have the MyFordTouch/Sync option and did not have the problematic dual clutch transmission. Problem is that MyFordTouch is a high demand option and more profit for the dealer, so the majority of Focus models that the dealers order include that feature. In my entire area, I could only locate one Focus that had a sunroof without the MyFord/Sync option.

Feanor
01-12-2012, 11:36 AM
...
It takes both visual and auditory senses to fully take in video content, which makes it fundamentally different from audio. Also, most songs are 5 minutes long or less, while video content requires a longer time commitment. In addition, movies are also viewed in theaters, whereas recorded music is not consumed in that kind of a group environment. Just a lot of fundamental differences.
....
Pardon this aside, but I look at the 5 minute thing bemusedly as a Classical listener. The average length of a single movement of typical concerto or symphony (if there were such a thing) exceeds 5 minutes, and such a work typically has 3 - 5 movements. I guess listening to Classical has more similarity to watching videos than to popular music. Symphonies such as by Mahler or Bruckner are over an hour and choral works, e.g. Messiah, are often longer. Operas longer still although I prefer opera videos, so I come full circle.

Woochifer
01-12-2012, 12:50 PM
Pardon this aside, but I look at the 5 minute thing bemusedly as a Classical listener. The average length of a single movement of typical concerto or symphony (if there were such a thing) exceeds 5 minutes, and such a work typically has 3 - 5 movements. I guess listening to Classical has more similarity to watching videos than to popular music. Symphonies such as by Mahler or Bruckner are over an hour and choral works, e.g. Messiah, are often longer. Operas longer still although I prefer opera videos, so I come full circle.

Yep, that's why I deliberately said "most songs" because orchestral and operatic pieces are an obvious exception. This coming from someone who had Tchaikovsky's Pathetique symphony playing on the car stereo for last night's PM commute, and has sat through the considerable running times of many a Mahler performance. :cool:

recoveryone
03-10-2012, 12:52 PM
:( how did I miss this thread

Woochifer
03-15-2012, 06:47 PM
:( how did I miss this thread

No better time than now to chime in! Who makes the audio unit on your Crossfire anyway? :20:

Quick update ...

I was reading over those various posts about the Mazda3 Bose system that came with my car, and basically it's mostly a non-upgradable system. For example, Bose uses very low impedance drivers in their system, which is inherently more difficult to drive. I read that Bose uses 1 ohm speakers, and all of the car audio speakers I've installed in my various cars have all been 4 ohms impedance.

Supposedly the digital amp will trip up if it detects a higher impedance speaker. So, any upgrade will entail replacing everything except the headunit. And reusing the headunit would still require a new amp, since the Bose amplifier will not play nice with more standard car speakers. The frustrating part of this is that this mimics how Bose offloads the amplification on their Lifestyle home theater systems, making it impossible to use the system with any other speakers.

Fortunately, the sound quality is pretty good when all the gadgety features are turned off. But, if I ever want to do something like swap out those 6.5" paper Bose drivers for a set of poly drivers, the amplifier might not let me. So, it looks like I'm stuck.

I wonder if other factory-installed car audio systems are similarly proprietary in their design.

recoveryone
03-15-2012, 07:21 PM
Thanks Woo, by the way the Crossfire came with a Infinity system, Component speakers and twin 6" subs behind the seats. The HU plays nice and has RDS radio and when you change the source its very smooth. But its dated for my standards. I just had the Pioneer DEH P9400BU put in, it has:

HD radio w/RDS
Bluetooth.......Handfree/Streaming from phone
Dual USB for Ipod/USB
Pandora support
Dual AUX
Multi Color support (match your dash lights)
CD
24 bit processing

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT23lW0VVx1LKBJlMS466n3cmGNkcIaK z2W4yWVehXY15_bGomI


I've been using bluetooth for over 10 years, so that is a must have, The HU in my old car had HD radio (more of a bones than need). I am use to being able to bring my music with me on a 8GB thumb drive ripped at 320kbps filed in folders of my choice (Gospel, Jazz, Neo Soul, Old school, Funk). The Pioneer plays each source very well, I was impressed with the bluetooth streaming, much less noise than the old HU I had. A few years ago I replaced my wifes HU with a Pioneer DEH 7100BT and she loves it especially the voice dialing feature (something no longer available on HU now days)

Woochifer
03-16-2012, 11:03 AM
Thanks Woo, by the way the Crossfire came with a Infinity system, Component speakers and twin 6" subs behind the seats. The HU plays nice and has RDS radio and when you change the source its very smooth. But its dated for my standards.

So, I take it that the OEM system allows you to swap out the headunit and still use the factory-installed speakers.

It's amazing to me how Harman/Kardon (and its many affiliate brands such as Infinity, JBL, Lexicon, and Mark Levinson) dominates the premium car audio market on the OEM side, and the car audio side of the business now dwarfs everything else that the company does.



I've been using bluetooth for over 10 years, so that is a must have, The HU in my old car had HD radio (more of a bones than need). I am use to being able to bring my music with me on a 8GB thumb drive ripped at 320kbps filed in folders of my choice (Gospel, Jazz, Neo Soul, Old school, Funk). The Pioneer plays each source very well, I was impressed with the bluetooth streaming, much less noise than the old HU I had. A few years ago I replaced my wifes HU with a Pioneer DEH 7100BT and she loves it especially the voice dialing feature (something no longer available on HU now days)

This Mazda3 is actually my first car that even has an AUX audio input! The car audio and I guess now "infotainment" options have mushroomed like crazy over the last few years. The car audio systems installed even in entry level cars nowadays are unrecognizable from what was the norm just five years ago.

The audio system on my Mazda3 is considered a dinosaur by some reviewers (basically, the ones who read too many tech blogs) because it still relies on buttons and dials, and *gasp* it doesn't have any USB inputs! :eek:

It does however have Bluetooth standard, and I've used the audio functions. I've been curious about Bluetooth audio, and done some digging into the specs and standards. I'll probably do a separate thread on Bluetooth, because so many audio accessories have now gone to Bluetooth.

In general, the audio quality is neither here or there (in my case the Bluetooth is transcoding a lossy AAC file from an iPod touch), and the Bluetooth audio doesn't allow for much functionality aside from skipping tracks.

Most of the time, I still use my old iPod dock (one with an FM transmitter, because my old car did not have an AUX audio input), except that I now plug the dock directly into the AUX input. Sound quality is subjectively better than using the Bluetooth, and I prefer the clickwheel controls on my old iPod nano, so that's what I use in the car.

recoveryone
03-16-2012, 02:19 PM
What I did was use the crutchfiled site to make sure which HU fit my car. then narrowed my choices from the features I was looking for. I'm sure there has to be somthing out there that can replace that Bose system.

Woochifer
03-19-2012, 06:16 PM
What I did was use the crutchfiled site to make sure which HU fit my car. then narrowed my choices from the features I was looking for. I'm sure there has to be somthing out there that can replace that Bose system.

Looking at Crutchfield's site, it looks like there are at least a few supposed drop-in upgrade options for that Bose system. The only thing I would be concerned about is the supposed issues with the digital amp. And if I do make a speaker upgrade, I would have to upgrade the entire group, since Bose uses 1 ohm drivers and most car speakers on the market have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms.

Given that I paid $1,400 for the option package that included the Bose system (want a moonroof? gotta buy the audio upgrade too), and I just sent in my first car payment (ah, my 90 days of "no payments" freedom are about to come to an end), I'm not really looking to put any money into the audio system just yet.

As I wrote, and as indicated in the reviews I linked to, the Bose Centerpoint system in my car is surprisingly good. It's only Bose's whackjob processing gimmickry that I'm not cool with. Fortunately, except for the dash-mounted center speaker, all of that can be disabled (if there's way of disabling the center speaker, I might be open to that -- consider it addition by subtraction).

Now that I think about it, are there any OEM car audio systems that don't use paper cones in the speakers? I know that drivers made with other materials are plentiful in the aftermarket, but I don't know of any factory installed systems that use them.

topspeed
03-26-2012, 09:27 AM
First and foremost, let me just say that the most important music in any car is the exhaust. There's a reason why many sports cars (Mustang, 911, M3) have sound tubes connecting the manifold to the cabin to port in engine noise. The '13 M5 even uses prerecorded engine sounds and plays it through the HK sound system because the chassis it is built on is TOO quiet.

That said, we had the Bose Centerpoint in our Mazda CX9 GT and it was a decent, if somewhat muddled system. I couldn't agree more with Bose's hackeyned processing features and, like you, we just turned everything off. This was our fourth Bose system and the most amazing thing was how different they all performed. The first, in an Infiniti I30, was the best and most balanced. The two Pathfinders that followed were both atrocious, the very definition of No Highs, No Lows, must be Bose. Clearly, despite Bose's claims to specifically tune the systems to different cars, I think it's safe to say they don't. Either that, or they have wildly divergent ideas of what a system should sound like within the company.

For me, one of the key features of OEM systems...and what makes them so hard to replace...is the convenience of the ergonomics. Whether it's the steering wheel controls in my car or Sync in my wife's Flex, it would be hard replace the HU in any car and give up that convenience. Sound quality is still important, witness many buyer's willingness to fork over $9k(!) for the upgraded B&O system in Audi's. However, if your first job in any car is to actually drive, we can't disregard the importance of ergonomics. This is increasingly important as more and more manufacturers believe we should have our Pandora, email, Facebook updates, et. al. streamed to us in our cars (a view I heartily disagree with). Unfortunately, this convergence of technologies is going to take a toll on most car's sound quality as manufacturers redirect funds from reproduction to sources. Most buyer's are more concerned with ease of use of their Sirius, iPod, or Pandora streams, all of which are horrible from the standpoint of sound quality, yet as long as they can stream their playlists via bluetooth, they are happy campers. Case in point: HD radio, a medium that flat blows anything save CD out of the water from the standpoint of sound quality but still hasn't caught on and very few stations have made the commitment to the upgrade. Why? No one cares and those that do, namely audiophiles, are a shrinking group.

recoveryone
03-26-2012, 11:37 AM
Speaking on HD radio not catching on IMHO is mainly the fault of the broadcasters. I have several HD stations in my area, even on the AM side of the dial. But I have only heard one activily promote HD radio, the others must just assume the public will just fall into it if they buy a product that supoprts the format. One of the stations in my area that has it, has both HD1 and HD2 stations the HD1 one mirrors the analog station broadcast, but the HD2 plays old school R&B with no commericals just staion ID at the top and bottom of the hour. And the quality is noticable much better and rival CD on a good system. Here is a list off the HD radio web site for my area, but I also pick up stations out of LA area.


<TABLE id=find-a-station border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR><TD class="station-block even">89.1
KUOR



</TD><TD class="stations-block even"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Jazz</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KUOR-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KUOR-HD
89.1FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>The University of Redlands
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class="station-block odd">89.3
KCRI



</TD><TD class="stations-block odd"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Educa/News</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KCRI-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KCRI-HD
89.3FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>Santa Monica Community College
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class="station-block even">91.9
KVCR



</TD><TD class="stations-block even"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Educational</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KVCR-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KVCR-HD
91.9FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>San Bernardino Community College District
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class="station-block odd">95.1
KFRG



</TD><TD class="stations-block odd"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Country</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KFRG-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KFRG-HD
95.1FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>CBS Radio
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR><TR class=stationFormatNumber1><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Ribbit Radio</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KFRG-HD2</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KFRG-HD2
95.1-2FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>CBS Radio
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class="station-block even">99.1
KGGI



</TD><TD class="stations-block even"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Top 40</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KGGI-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KGGI-HD
99.1FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>Clear Channel
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR><TR class=stationFormatNumber1><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Groove</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KGGI-HD2</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KGGI-HD2
99.1-2FM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>Clear Channel
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE></TD></TR><TR><TD class="station-block odd">1440
KFNY



</TD><TD class="stations-block odd"><TABLE border=0 cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0><TBODY><TR class=stationFormatNumber0><TD class=stationGenre vAlign=center>Comedy</TD><!--<td class="stationCall" valign="middle">KFNY-HD</td>--><TD class=stationFreq vAlign=center>KFNY-HD
1440AM

</TD><TD class=stationOwner vAlign=center>Clear Channel
Riverside-San Bernardino (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Riverside-San+Bernardino-72), CA (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA)

</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>here the link to check your area for HD stations

HD Radio | Stations | More Music. More Stations. More Features. Digital Sound. No Subscription. (http://www.hdradio.com/stations/California-CA/Los+Angeles-44)
</TD></TR></TBODY></TABLE>

recoveryone
03-26-2012, 11:42 AM
Looking at Crutchfield's site, it looks like there are at least a few supposed drop-in upgrade options for that Bose system. The only thing I would be concerned about is the supposed issues with the digital amp. And if I do make a speaker upgrade, I would have to upgrade the entire group, since Bose uses 1 ohm drivers and most car speakers on the market have a nominal impedance of 4 ohms.

Given that I paid $1,400 for the option package that included the Bose system (want a moonroof? gotta buy the audio upgrade too), and I just sent in my first car payment (ah, my 90 days of "no payments" freedom are about to come to an end), I'm not really looking to put any money into the audio system just yet.

As I wrote, and as indicated in the reviews I linked to, the Bose Centerpoint system in my car is surprisingly good. It's only Bose's whackjob processing gimmickry that I'm not cool with. Fortunately, except for the dash-mounted center speaker, all of that can be disabled (if there's way of disabling the center speaker, I might be open to that -- consider it addition by subtraction).

Now that I think about it, are there any OEM car audio systems that don't use paper cones in the speakers? I know that drivers made with other materials are plentiful in the aftermarket, but I don't know of any factory installed systems that use them.


Call their tech support is a 1-800 number

jjp735i
03-27-2012, 09:23 AM
710-Watt (max) Rockford-Fosgate Punch® premium sound system that you can get in the new Lancer. Has to be one of the best factory installed systems I've ever heard.

jjp

bfalls
03-27-2012, 12:45 PM
Do any of the current car systems have a center channel? My Eclipse came with an Infinity system. It's center channel gives what I've been looking for in a car system for some time---balance. It always seems a compromise when setting up a car system. If you adjust it for the driver the sound is off for everyone else. The center speaker gives very good balance for both driver and passenger. I don't feel like I'm missing anything. We've had luxury vehicles with Bose, Infinity and JBL systems. None sound as good as (to me) the system in my 2003 Eclipse.

Woochifer
03-27-2012, 01:59 PM
First and foremost, let me just say that the most important music in any car is the exhaust. There's a reason why many sports cars (Mustang, 911, M3) have sound tubes connecting the manifold to the cabin to port in engine noise. The '13 M5 even uses prerecorded engine sounds and plays it through the HK sound system because the chassis it is built on is TOO quiet.

Hey Speedy, good to hear from you! Definitely agree on the visceral thrill of a good exhaust note -- yeah, even on my old VW Bug, which probably had the most recognizable sound of any car ever made (and that's with all 45 ponies pushing at the same time!).

Sadly, my Mazda3 doesn't have much of an exhaust note to talk about. Aside from the diesel-like clanking from the GDI engine, it's just smooth and compliant until it gets rougher in the high RPMs. Nothing like my now-comatose Integra, which was turbine-like until the VTEC system kicked in at the higher RPMs and that engine started singing. If anything, that engine was just begging to rev high (amazing that it lasted 383k miles). I'd been looking at the Mazdaspeed3, but fuel economy and emissions took priority this time around, so I went with the Skyactiv.

I've driven the current Mustang a few times as a rental (only the 210 HP V6 models). Decent push off the line, but nothing to write home about. I didn't like the handling and thought the engine was unrefined. But, man oh man did Ford get the exhaust note right on that car! Might not have been an actual barnburner, but it most definitely sounded like one. :4:

I did read about the piped in exhaust noise on the Bimmers. Sorry, but that's just cheesy! Then I see the Acura commercials where they use acoustic cancellation to tamper down the engine noise. Color me heretical, but I thought I was driving a car, not a sensory-deprivation-chamber-on-wheels.


That said, we had the Bose Centerpoint in our Mazda CX9 GT and it was a decent, if somewhat muddled system. I couldn't agree more with Bose's hackeyned processing features and, like you, we just turned everything off. This was our fourth Bose system and the most amazing thing was how different they all performed. The first, in an Infiniti I30, was the best and most balanced. The two Pathfinders that followed were both atrocious, the very definition of No Highs, No Lows, must be Bose. Clearly, despite Bose's claims to specifically tune the systems to different cars, I think it's safe to say they don't. Either that, or they have wildly divergent ideas of what a system should sound like within the company.

With Bose, I think it comes down to what they can cram into the interior. They seem to optimize around that, rather than any desired tonal quality. That seems to be why the Bose systems perform so differently from car to car.

With my system, just look at the bizarre range of drivers that Bose selected:

Front Door (high): two 1" tweeters
Front Door (low): two 6.5" woofers
Front Dashboard (center): one 3.5" "twiddler"
Passenger Door (low): two 5.5" woofers
Rear Pillar: two 3.5" "twiddlers"
Rear Spare Tire: one 5.5" "subwoofer"

Except for the front center speaker, everything actually matches surprisingly well. But, I get the impression that this might be more by accident than by design.

With the Fiat 500, Bose is now marketing their "Energy Efficient" series that touts 50% reduced energy consumption. I made a comment on one of the car blogs that any system can achieve a 50% reduction in energy consumption by simply installing speakers that are 3 db more sensitive, assuming that you're talking about identical sound output levels. Or simply switch over to Class D amplification (which Bose already uses in its OEM systems), which reduces heat losses.


For me, one of the key features of OEM systems...and what makes them so hard to replace...is the convenience of the ergonomics. Whether it's the steering wheel controls in my car or Sync in my wife's Flex, it would be hard replace the HU in any car and give up that convenience. Sound quality is still important, witness many buyer's willingness to fork over $9k(!) for the upgraded B&O system in Audi's.

Whuh, you mean that $9k B&O upgrade on the Audi A8 wasn't just for those fantastically convenient pop-up tweeters?

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/assets_c/2012/03/IMG_1505-thumb-717x537-116441.jpg

I have seen installation kits that supposedly replicate the OEM steering wheel controls on an aftermarket system. But, who knows what functions, such as the Bluetooth controls, would get disabled if you start swapping out components.


However, if your first job in any car is to actually drive, we can't disregard the importance of ergonomics. This is increasingly important as more and more manufacturers believe we should have our Pandora, email, Facebook updates, et. al. streamed to us in our cars (a view I heartily disagree with). Unfortunately, this convergence of technologies is going to take a toll on most car's sound quality as manufacturers redirect funds from reproduction to sources. Most buyer's are more concerned with ease of use of their Sirius, iPod, or Pandora streams, all of which are horrible from the standpoint of sound quality, yet as long as they can stream their playlists via bluetooth, they are happy campers. Case in point: HD radio, a medium that flat blows anything save CD out of the water from the standpoint of sound quality but still hasn't caught on and very few stations have made the commitment to the upgrade. Why? No one cares and those that do, namely audiophiles, are a shrinking group.

Yeah, I don't know what's worse -- the drunk driver, the driver yakking and texting on their phone, or the driver doing a staredown with their navigation system! :incazzato:

Unfortunately, that techie mentality of trying to cram as many features onto a checklist as possible has invaded the auto market in a huge way. It's not just the sound quality, but the functionality as well, that can suffer in the process. Aside from the spate of bugs that have accompanied these infotainment systems, a lot of the time they are just poorly designed to begin with. Just look at the MyFordTouch screen on a sat radio equipped Explorer. Is this supposed to make the drive easier ... or safer?

http://blogs.insideline.com/roadtests/assets/Ke%24ha%20on%20MyFord%20Crap.jpg

All these new connectivity features have proven popular with Gen Y car buyers, so I don't see them going away. However, it seems that the more elaborate the infotainment system, the bigger a toll it takes on the manufacturers' reliability ratings. Ford is the most notable example, but Hyundai as well has slipped in the JD Power rankings as they made a big push with tech gadgets.

With the sound quality, the OEM systems are a lot better nowadays than in decades past. But, I don't see things pushing much further upward, at least with stock systems. The big trend with premium sound will likely see at least some sound quality refinements simply because car buyers have proven willing to pay more to upgrade their OEM audio system (or at least option up on the packages that include the premium audio). Plus, from what I've seen, the premium OEM systems still have a lot of room to improve. If you look at the speaker drivers, they still use cheaper materials compared to decent aftermarket car speakers.

On HD Radio, Clear Channel has made a big push. Most of their major market stations now use HD Radio for multicasting. Even though HD Radio is capable of good sound quality, that consideration is really secondary to the multicasting functionality. Basically, any feature that keeps listeners from defecting over to satellite radio is fine with them; and the main feature of satellite is simply the bigger music library.

From what I've seen, Clear Channel has a bunch of preformatted streams that they make available to their stations (and other OTA stations) -- stuff like disco and classic 80s, etc. -- and those get placed onto the HD Radio multicasts. With each FM signal capable of multiple digital subchannels, a single classic rock station for example can potentially carry specialized feeds for every decade in the rock era or any number of different subgenres.

In my listenings with HD Radio, it just seems that eliminating the analog FM interference goes a long way towards improving the sound quality. The bigger issue with radio is with the source itself, since most radio stations now upload everything using digital music servers and presumably using compressed audio files.

topspeed
03-27-2012, 03:57 PM
Hey Speedy, good to hear from you! Definitely agree on the visceral thrill of a good exhaust note -- yeah, even on my old VW Bug, which probably had the most recognizable sound of any car ever made (and that's with all 45 ponies pushing at the same time!). Yeah, nothing sounds like the metallic rasp of that air cooled icon.


I'd been looking at the Mazdaspeed3, but fuel economy and emissions took priority this time around, so I went with the Skyactiv. The Skyactiv is impressive stuff! Highest compression ratio of any NA engine. Mazda is the BMW of Japanese manufacturers in my estimation, meaning they actually infuse their cars with a character and soul. They actually give a damn as to how something drives, which is why I was glad to see they were able to dramatically increase the efficiency of their vehicles while not losing their dynamic personality. The Skyactiv diesel is apparently their ace in the hole, I can't wait to see what they are going to do with it. Diesel is mighty appealing to me (over 65% of vehicles sold in Europe are now diesel, not petrol). BMW just released a facinating video of their new Tri- Turbo 3.0L inline 6 diesel with...get this...381hp and 546 lb/ft! Yeah, baby! Sign me up!


I did read about the piped in exhaust noise on the Bimmers. Sorry, but that's just cheesy! You're being polite. It's heresy! (and I don't mean the speaker). A Bimmer with a fake exhaust system. What's next, Ferrari's with no manuals? Wait...what?


Yeah, I don't know what's worse -- the drunk driver, the driver yakking and texting on their phone, or the driver doing a staredown with their navigation system! :incazzato:

Unfortunately, that techie mentality of trying to cram as many features onto a checklist as possible has invaded the auto market in a huge way. It's not just the sound quality, but the functionality as well, that can suffer in the process. Aside from the spate of bugs that have accompanied these infotainment systems, a lot of the time they are just poorly designed to begin with. Just look at the MyFordTouch screen on a sat radio equipped Explorer. Is this supposed to make the drive easier ... or safer?


Neither. Years ago, Jamie Kitman from Automobile Magazine labeled all the "infotainment" upgrades foisted upon us by the manufacturers as "crapulent luxury." Works for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a decent stereo as much as the next guy and find some of the features of the Sync system to be pretty cool, but if given the choice between more horsepower or more wattage...well my moniker should give you a hint. The HK Logic 7 in my car is actually one of the better ones I've heard (the best being the ELS DVD-A system, hands down), yet it can always be better, which is why there's a JL Audio sub in the trunk. BTW, earlier in the thread someone mentioned that car audio speakers don't translate well to home audio, particularly the high end. I guess no one told JL as the Fathom is quite possibly the best sub on the planet. But I digress, most audiophiles are rarely content in their quest for the absolute truth. This viscious cycle is one of the reasons I stepped back from the hobby and elected to simply enjoy the music. You're trying to change out your speakers in a brand new car, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you find your musical preferences change when your behind the wheel? Mine do. When I'm at home, it's not uncommon for me to turn the sub off during critical listening. However, in my car, the punchier the better! That could be due to road noise or whatever, but I like to feel my bass.

Woochifer
03-27-2012, 05:48 PM
Do any of the current car systems have a center channel? My Eclipse came with an Infinity system. It's center channel gives what I've been looking for in a car system for some time---balance. It always seems a compromise when setting up a car system. If you adjust it for the driver the sound is off for everyone else. The center speaker gives very good balance for both driver and passenger. I don't feel like I'm missing anything. We've had luxury vehicles with Bose, Infinity and JBL systems. None sound as good as (to me) the system in my 2003 Eclipse.

I believe that all of Bose's Centerpoint systems use a center speaker. In regular stereo playback, the center simply plays in parallel with both the L and R channels. When Bose Centerpoint processing gets switched on, then the center channel uses a discrete processed signal. It's basically the same principle as Dolby Pro Logic decoding. I don't care too much about the center speaker on the Bose system. It doesn't timbre match especially well with the L and R speakers. But, at least the levels seem properly set (unfortunately, the controls don't provide any way of setting the center speaker level), so it doesn't sound overly distracting during normal playback.


The Skyactiv is impressive stuff! Highest compression ratio of any NA engine. Mazda is the BMW of Japanese manufacturers in my estimation, meaning they actually infuse their cars with a character and soul. They actually give a damn as to how something drives, which is why I was glad to see they were able to dramatically increase the efficiency of their vehicles while not losing their dynamic personality. The Skyactiv diesel is apparently their ace in the hole, I can't wait to see what they are going to do with it. Diesel is mighty appealing to me (over 65% of vehicles sold in Europe are now diesel, not petrol). BMW just released a facinating video of their new Tri- Turbo 3.0L inline 6 diesel with...get this...381hp and 546 lb/ft! Yeah, baby! Sign me up!

I would say that Skyactiv is an impressive first effort. Even though it's not the most exciting engine in the world, I do appreciate its balance and flexibility. It doesn't tip in gobs of torque at the low end like a 6 or 8 banger or turbo or diesel, or kick into screaming banshee mode at the top end like my Integra did. But, it has a nice linear powerband that's not too peaky at any point.

Compared to Mazda's previous powertrains, the Skyactiv's biggest improvement was actually in the transmission. The auto transmission just gets it right -- quick, rev-matched shifts like a dual clutch without the lurching at low speeds. I preferred it to the Ford Focus and VW Golf manuals (the manual Skyactivs were very hard to find at the time I bought my car).

That torque on a diesel is indeed very enticing. I nearly opted for the VW Golf TDI because of that. But, at nearly $28k, it was over $5k more than the Mazda3, and just outside the budget that we had set. Plus, it was inching close to the Chevy Volt after all the tax breaks (we ruled that model out because of the price).

I read that the Skyactiv-D engine will likely arrive next year, and first on the CX-5 and redesigned Mazda6. For now, Mazda doesn't plan to include it with the Mazda3, at least until its next redesign. Until I test drove the Golf TDI, I hadn't driven a diesel in close to 20 years. These modern diesels are way different. Unfortunately, I see diesels remaining a niche play, as economy-minded Americans seem to have moved over to hybrids.

Driving enthusiasts just aren't in the sweet spot of the market, which is probably why Mazda's sales continue to lag behind other mainstream market rivals. But, I do appreciate that they make cars that want to be driven, and that drivers who like driving will want to drive. They're not quiet, isolated, soft, or smooth -- which is where the mainstream market is, and unfortunately where Honda (a former enthusiast favorite) went as well.


Neither. Years ago, Jamie Kitman from Automobile Magazine labeled all the "infotainment" upgrades foisted upon us by the manufacturers as "crapulent luxury." Works for me. Don't get me wrong, I like a decent stereo as much as the next guy and find some of the features of the Sync system to be pretty cool, but if given the choice between more horsepower or more wattage...well my moniker should give you a hint. The HK Logic 7 in my car is actually one of the better ones I've heard (the best being the ELS DVD-A system, hands down), yet it can always be better, which is why there's a JL Audio sub in the trunk. BTW, earlier in the thread someone mentioned that car audio speakers don't translate well to home audio, particularly the high end. I guess no one told JL as the Fathom is quite possibly the best sub on the planet. But I digress, most audiophiles are rarely content in their quest for the absolute truth. This viscious cycle is one of the reasons I stepped back from the hobby and elected to simply enjoy the music. You're trying to change out your speakers in a brand new car, so you know exactly what I'm talking about. Do you find your musical preferences change when your behind the wheel? Mine do. When I'm at home, it's not uncommon for me to turn the sub off during critical listening. However, in my car, the punchier the better! That could be due to road noise or whatever, but I like to feel my bass.

I'll admit I've been borrowing that crapulent term -- it just seems to perfectly fit so much of the ridiculous tech getting crammed into the newest cars. Problem is that cars are not the same thing as smartphones or computers. A software glitch or overly complicated interface has greater consequences with a car than with other devices. Yet, these features still get pushed out in the same way as any other software -- get it out to market first, and worry about fixing any bugs later on.

My choice of tunes is a little more punchy whenever I drive. A car audio system is inherently different simply because all of the speakers are in the near field. It will image differently than a home audio setup, although carefully done processing and positioning can make the soundfield more expansive (and this was the goal with the Acura ELS systems, which were designed by 5.1 guru Eliot Scheiner). And a lot of mixing and mastering on pop recordings is done on speakers that approximate how things sound in a car cabin, so the track might actually be more optimized to a car than home system.

And the bass will definitely be a different story altogether, because the smaller cabin size means that the bass waves reinforce one another all across the frequency spectrum. A small cabin also means that you won't hear any specific room-induced frequency peaking like you would at home in a small to medium sized room (unless you equalize the subwoofer or treat the room). This of course just invites cranking up the volume!

Funny thing is that my old VW Bug was the best environment for good, tight bass. I installed a pair of 6"x9" coaxials on the rear deck, which concealed a small cargo compartment behind the rear seat (ah, the oddities of the Bug -- engine in back, trunk and gas tank up front, cargo compartment behind the rear seat). With heavy firewall insulation and the backseat cushion on all sides, that space turned out to be perfect sealed box. And the Bug had that dome shaped roof which reduced right angle sound reflections. Yeah, it was slow as a snail and made every turn an adventure, but man I miss that car!

Poultrygeist
03-28-2012, 04:39 AM
I have a Mazda3 5 door with the low profile performance tires which are so loud that upgrading the tinny sounding factory system would be a waste for me.

I have an old S10 pickup that by adding a thin Kenwood powered sub behind the seat made a big difference. The head unit is a cheap Pioneer.

My wife's Toyota Sienna is quiet enough to warrant a system upgrade which I may get around to.

My best sounding system from back in the day was a Sansui deck with some Altec full rangers I managed to shoehorn in the doors of a German Ford. Marshall Tucker never sounded so good.

recoveryone
03-28-2012, 07:35 AM
aaahhh those good old 6X9's, my first pair went into my 67 chevy Impala low rider (Jensen), then I had a set of four that fit on a board I made when my dad handed down his old 74 Honda CVCC. After that I had a 75 Pinto coupe put in 8" woofers and 6" horn tweeters (with crossovers) and few people could stand riding in the back seat it was so loud. Man those were the days...............

topspeed
03-29-2012, 10:06 AM
6x9's were be-all, end-all back in the day, eh? My friend had Cerwin-Vega 6x9's on the deck of his Scirocco and it worked famously. When I was in high school, my Bronco had 2x12" CV's, Sanyo amps, Morel Mid-tweets (basically a 5.25" soft dome), and Morel tweeters w/ a Yamaha HU. Basically a echo chamber, you could hear that thing coming from blocks away, which is important when you're 16 but not so much now.

The HK in my current car has 11 speakers, two of which are 6.5" underseat subs. Stock, it is very balanced and had enough kick to keep me interested. The DPLII thankfully doesn't screw up the sound nearly as much as Centerpoint in my opinion, although I still prefer the "music" setting over "cinema" (really, in a car?). I installed the JL sub simply because I had it so why not? My previous convertibles were vacuums for bass and the stock stereos were an affront to anyone who takes music even semi-seriously. I melted, literally, a couple of Rockford Fosgates and a Pyle before I ante'd up for the JL (cheap they're not), which has been easily the most musical and obviously bulletproof of the lot. Now that I have a hard top, admittedly the sub is a bit of overkill. Some people never grow up...

BTW, one of the great tragedies in automobiledom is the dilution of Honda. What the hell happened to this once great company??? As a former Integra and CBR owner myself, I loved the engineering and passion that once percolated throughout all of Honda's products. There was a time when their engineers took pride in creating innovative answers to problems. Their designs were lean, no fluff, truth in engineering stuff. You knew they would be light, efficient, and with direct responses to the wheel or bars. If Big Red didn't win on the GP circuit, you knew they would come storming back in short order. Now, they're recycling engines and using 5spds when the rest of the world has moved on to 6, 7, and 8 spd transmissions. Their cars look the same...and not in a good way. The Accord is bloated, the '13 Civic looks EXACTLY like the '12, just with a cheaper interior, and don't get me started on the Crosstour. This is a company that has completely lost its identity.

Woochifer
03-29-2012, 02:56 PM
I have a Mazda3 5 door with the low profile performance tires which are so loud that upgrading the tinny sounding factory system would be a waste for me.

I have an old S10 pickup that by adding a thin Kenwood powered sub behind the seat made a big difference. The head unit is a cheap Pioneer.

My wife's Toyota Sienna is quiet enough to warrant a system upgrade which I may get around to.

My best sounding system from back in the day was a Sansui deck with some Altec full rangers I managed to shoehorn in the doors of a German Ford. Marshall Tucker never sounded so good.

Eliminating interior noise is an instant sound upgrade for just about any car stereo. But, I think a lot of auto makers have gone way too far in that direction to the point that the isolation from the road is actually dangerous.

Sansui ... now there's a blast from the past! I always liked their gear back in the day. The nameplate is still around, but it's now nothing more than rebadged stuff from Funai.


aaahhh those good old 6X9's, my first pair went into my 67 chevy Impala low rider (Jensen), then I had a set of four that fit on a board I made when my dad handed down his old 74 Honda CVCC. After that I had a 75 Pinto coupe put in 8" woofers and 6" horn tweeters (with crossovers) and few people could stand riding in the back seat it was so loud. Man those were the days...............

Wow, and now Jensen. Couple that with a Craig headunit, and you got half of the audio selections from decades past at your local Pep Boys!

I was looking for a pair of those old horn tweeter units when I had my Bug. By that time, everyone had stopped making them, so I went with the 6x9s.


BTW, one of the great tragedies in automobiledom is the dilution of Honda. What the hell happened to this once great company??? As a former Integra and CBR owner myself, I loved the engineering and passion that once percolated throughout all of Honda's products. There was a time when their engineers took pride in creating innovative answers to problems. Their designs were lean, no fluff, truth in engineering stuff. You knew they would be light, efficient, and with direct responses to the wheel or bars. If Big Red didn't win on the GP circuit, you knew they would come storming back in short order. Now, they're recycling engines and using 5spds when the rest of the world has moved on to 6, 7, and 8 spd transmissions. Their cars look the same...and not in a good way. The Accord is bloated, the '13 Civic looks EXACTLY like the '12, just with a cheaper interior, and don't get me started on the Crosstour. This is a company that has completely lost its identity.

Incredibly sad demise, now culminating with the widely panned 2012 Civic. Honda went for the dollars, plain and simple. Toyota did the same thing, but outside of the Supra and MR2 they never had much of a presence with the enthusiast market. Honda is seen as more of a betrayal.

Honda had an incredible run where they would come up with one inspired idea after another. It wasn't all about technology -- remember that they were one of the last car companies to add catalytic converters, one of the last to abandon carburetors, and one of the last to widely adopt twin cam engines. It was about meeting a performance goal and optimizing their cars to the nth degree, without sacrificing build quality or reliability.

I think Honda, as we knew it, came to an end around the same time (the mid to late-90s) that Toyota began to lose their way. Not coincidental that Soichiro Honda died in 1991 -- the NSX was one of the last cars that had his direct input, and it was the pinnacle of Honda's greatness. Models introduced immediately after the NSX used a lot of the same principles. In the mid-90s, Honda had just introduced the first generation Odyssey minivan, and the fifth generation Accord. Both cars were intelligently packaged, space efficient, lightweight, and fun-to-drive for their class -- everything that Honda was still known for at that time.

But, both models fell way behind competing models that had added size and weight. So, in a bid to grab market share, Honda dino-sized the next generation models, and separated the North American models from the Japanese and European market models. The new models were bigger, more conservatively designed, and heavier. And they sold in much greater numbers. Honda's been going ever larger and softer since then, trading models that fit Soichiro Honda's vision (like the S2000, Integra, and pre-G6 Accords) for uninspired sales grabs (like the Pilot, CR-V, post-G1 Odysseys, and post-G5 Accords).

Problem for Honda is that after their spectacular emergence in the 70s, 80s, and early-90s, they reached a point where the only market left to capture in North America was buyers transitioning from the Big Three. Those consumers were more used to big and cushy cars, so rather than stick with the enthusiast market, Honda basically abandoned them to go chasing after former GM, Ford, and Chrysler owners.

Past Honda owners will still buy new Hondas out of loyalty and because of Honda's reputation for reliability. But, the thrill is gone, and Honda can only bank off of their goodwill and reputation for so long. A lot of Honda's good stuff is still found overseas (bringing the Honda Stream space wagon to the U.S. would have been a bold move, but Honda opted for the gawdawful Crosstour instead), but they are adrift without a rudder in North America -- just content with building derivative "me too" commuting appliances. Honda became the new Toyota, just as Toyota was becoming the new GM. Even Hyundai nowadays is building bolder and more forward thinking cars than Honda.

Word is that the new Civic's rude reception from the auto press has Honda in an all out panic mode. Sad part is that Honda seems more distressed by the negative review from Consumer Reports than anything else. Even worse is that the sales for the new Civic have been on the rise, indicating that U.S. car buyers don't care much that the new Civic is a softened and dumbed down version of the previous model.

And the booming sales for the VW Jetta, also seem to indicate that U.S. buyers are fine with softened and decontented cars, as long as they're bigger and cheaper. Honda's doing nothing more than shifting their market target over to the fat part, even if they lose their soul in the process.

texlle
04-12-2012, 08:53 AM
Of the various audio systems I've had the pleasure of sampling when I worked a part-time weekend gig at a car wash in college, I was a fan of the dynaudio systems in the Volvo and Volkswagen models, though I have heard the VW systems can be problematic, likely due to the fact that they are wired to a VW. I've recently heard the 16-speaker Lexicon system in the Hyundai Equus luxo-barge and it was quite impressive as well. You really can't go wrong with nearly any "premium" name brand system from any car, except the Bose stereos. The Bose sounds better than most standard non-name brand stock equipment but does not compete with even some of the offerings from JBL, Infinity, Rockford, let alone B&O, B&W, Mark Levinson, in my opinion.

My 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GTV6 came with a 360 watt 7 speaker "Infinity" stereo. The 7th speaker being an 8" trunk mounted subwoofer. I place Infinity in quotes above because all drivers are actually JBL speakers as indicated by the labels on the magnets. The Infinity labeled headunit was a regular cheapo double-din model manufactured by Hyundai and installed as standard equipment in the Sonatas and Santa Fes. The only difference being that it was finished in black and had an Infinity logo. It was not very impressive out of the box. The tweeters were surprisingly smooth, and not sharp at all. However the mids were a bit veiled and lacking in detail. The subwoofer was not very loud and was actually wired in reverse phase from the factory. A popular modification when the car was new was to reverse the phase to 0 degrees by simply reversing the the two wires. This made a world of difference, but 3 months later it blew.

I swapped the stock headunit for an Alpine CDA-9831, removed the stock sub entirely, added an Alpine 350W mono amp, and a JL Audio 12w3v2. Vast improvement. Though I did have to turn the gain down significantly to avoid drowning out the speakers. I also opted for the auxiliary adapter for the rear input and added an Ixos rca-headphone cable for my iPhone. It's essentially like having bluetooth to boot, as I only have to tap the screen to receive a call, the call is channeled through my stereo, and when I end the call, the phone will resume music play.

I'm considering adding some entry level Boston components up front and 6x9's in the rear, and possibly an aftermarket 4-channel amp, but that will be after I change my timing belt and overhaul the brakes...and finish my 2-channel at home of course.

recoveryone
04-14-2012, 06:42 AM
I forgot to add all this time we have been talking about this, that my Wife's Acura MDX came with a Bose system and the Pioneer HU drivers all the speakers just fine or should I say better than the Bose HU.

texlle
04-14-2012, 10:26 AM
I wouldn't be surprised if most "Bose" headunits aren't just lightly tweaked or even direct copies of the lesser standard equipment headunits supplied to those car models, with a Bose logo slapped on, much like my "Infinity". It's likely that the speakers and amplifiers are really what you're really paying for, with some of the very high end systems possibly being the exception- Audi's B&O for example. You'll notice that when comparing standard to premium factory car systems, the headunit almost always looks exactly the same, save for an additional row of buttons for added sound mode effects at most and of course the obligatory logo. Yet you can't tell for sure what has changed behind the mask until you disassemble, or receive an explanation from the manufacturer.

Woochifer
04-18-2012, 11:40 PM
Of the various audio systems I've had the pleasure of sampling when I worked a part-time weekend gig at a car wash in college, I was a fan of the dynaudio systems in the Volvo and Volkswagen models, though I have heard the VW systems can be problematic, likely due to the fact that they are wired to a VW. I've recently heard the 16-speaker Lexicon system in the Hyundai Equus luxo-barge and it was quite impressive as well. You really can't go wrong with nearly any "premium" name brand system from any car, except the Bose stereos. The Bose sounds better than most standard non-name brand stock equipment but does not compete with even some of the offerings from JBL, Infinity, Rockford, let alone B&O, B&W, Mark Levinson, in my opinion.

Ah! Nice gig for sampling a lot of the wares on various jalopies!

I didn't get a chance to sample the Dynaudio system when I was test driving the VW (that option package would have run the price on a Golf TDI to over $29k).

With the Bose system on my Mazda3, I was surprised by the audio quality, especially since I am familiar with how much the sound varies between different car models. That was the main reason I started this thread in the first place. And I was even more surprised when I found the Edmunds comparison test that ranked the Mazda3 Bose system first among budget premium OEM audio systems. The VW Golf Dynaudio system ranked 3rd. The Infiniti M35 Bose system also fared well compared to other higher end premium OEM systems.

Comparison Test of Six Budget Premium Audio Systems - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/comparison-test-of-six-budget-premium-audio-systems.html)
High-End Stock Stereo Sound-Off - Edmunds.com (http://www.edmunds.com/car-technology/car-audio/high-end-stock-stereo-sound-off.html)


My 2003 Hyundai Tiburon GTV6 came with a 360 watt 7 speaker "Infinity" stereo. The 7th speaker being an 8" trunk mounted subwoofer. I place Infinity in quotes above because all drivers are actually JBL speakers as indicated by the labels on the magnets. The Infinity labeled headunit was a regular cheapo double-din model manufactured by Hyundai and installed as standard equipment in the Sonatas and Santa Fes. The only difference being that it was finished in black and had an Infinity logo. It was not very impressive out of the box. The tweeters were surprisingly smooth, and not sharp at all. However the mids were a bit veiled and lacking in detail. The subwoofer was not very loud and was actually wired in reverse phase from the factory. A popular modification when the car was new was to reverse the phase to 0 degrees by simply reversing the the two wires. This made a world of difference, but 3 months later it blew.

That's funny that your "Infinity" system still wears JBL labels underneath. Does not surprise me that there's part swapping going on between the various Harman International brands. I know that JBL and Infinity share facilities out in California, and even though their retail speakers are voiced differently and pitched to different markets, this is Harman's OEM automotive division that we're talking about.

Even though these car systems might wear Mark Levinson, Lexicon, JBL, harman/kardon, or Infinity badges, they're all sold through Harman International's OEM car audio division, which generates 75% of Harman's revenue (a staggering number when you consider how many pro and consumer audio divisions Harman operates that rank among the market leaders).


I wouldn't be surprised if most "Bose" headunits aren't just lightly tweaked or even direct copies of the lesser standard equipment headunits supplied to those car models, with a Bose logo slapped on, much like my "Infinity". It's likely that the speakers and amplifiers are really what you're really paying for, with some of the very high end systems possibly being the exception- Audi's B&O for example. You'll notice that when comparing standard to premium factory car systems, the headunit almost always looks exactly the same, save for an additional row of buttons for added sound mode effects at most and of course the obligatory logo. Yet you can't tell for sure what has changed behind the mask until you disassemble, or receive an explanation from the manufacturer.

There have been some forum posts about the Mazda3 Bose systems, and the speakers themselves definitely differ from the standard OEM systems. For one thing, the impedance on the Bose drivers is way lower than what's used in the standard OEM system. And in order to fit the Bose drivers into the Mazda door cutouts, spacers had to be added. All of the drivers have Bose labels on them.

I know that Mazda's OEM stereo is a modular design with different options that can be plugged into the unit behind the center console. The Bose system uses the same head unit, but the power is supplied by an external Class D amp mounted under the passenger seat (also with Bose badging). With the standard OEM system, the head unit itself powers the speakers.

In your case, it's all still under the same corporate umbrella, but not under the same division that produces the actual "Infinity" products. But, since consumers know the Infinity name, that's the actual badging, even though the system itself is one among many made through Harman's OEM car audio division.

Mash
04-19-2012, 11:49 AM
I admit that there have been many unpopular changes to automobiles......

Take those handcranks for starting the engine that are no longer offered... these were great for checking that you were heathly enough to drive. If you dropped dead while engine cranking, then you should not drive in the first place.......

We have a 2007 Camry V6 with VSC and 39k miles on it. The suspension is verrry interesting. Pump the tires to 35psi and it can really move. It is matronly enough to be invisible to the HP. The radio is OK (better than Ford) even if I had to reduce the bass because of some heaviness. It has been years since I reworked an auto "sound system" and maybe years more before I do again.

I suspect the V6 Honda Acorn is similar to the Camry..... a sleeper in disquise.

Florian
05-08-2012, 07:21 AM
My personal favoriete is in my VW Phaeton W12. Its some "Premium" 12 speaker DSP System. I have no idea what the make is but since the car is build like the Bentley there are no rattles, creaking etc... and the sound is just there. Fullrange 3 way speakers times 4. No subwoofer that pumps somewhere.