FINALLY - Revel Performa Series 3

[Ajani]

So I've been waiting for a few years now for Revel to replace the Performa (and Concerta) range of speakers... Well CES 2012 will finally be the one. According to Canada HIFI:


Revel:
The brand will replace its entire Performa series of bookshelf and tower speakers with the Performa3 series. The new series is said to raise performance through advances in driver design. Prices will also drop slightly.

The first eight speakers will be priced from a targeted $1,200 U.S./pair to $4,500 U.S./pair. Two more speakers due in the fall will add a third tower at around $6,000 U.S. to $6,500 U.S. /pair.

The first eight speakers will consist of two bookshelf models, two floorstanding towers, two center channels, one bipolar surround and one subwoofer.

New Products from Harman | CANADA HiFi Magazine (http://canadahifi.com/index.php/new-products-from-harman/)

Based on the prices, it seems like Revel maybe replacing the Concerta line by expanding the Performa line downwards into cheaper territory... Very cool news for Revel fans...

[JohnMichael]

Thanks for letting us know. I will be keeping an eye open for the release and hopefully an ear open if I find a dealer.

[Mash]

GM has slid product names downmarket for years- perhaps on the theory that many uninformed people would think they were getting a bargain from their dealer.

The once top of the line Chevys (I prob left some names out):

Biscane, Belaire, Impala, Caprice, Caprice Classic......... Each started as the top trim line and then slowly slid down the lineup until they fell off the bottom and into history.

I have never seen a company try to slide a product name upmarket.

[Ajani]

GM has slid product names downmarket for years- perhaps on the theory that many uninformed people would think they were getting a bargain from their dealer.

The once top of the line Chevys (I prob left some names out):

Biscane, Belaire, Impala, Caprice, Caprice Classic......... Each started as the top trim line and then slowly slid down the lineup until they fell off the bottom and into history.

I have never seen a company try to slide a product name upmarket.

I'm not so sure about that... HiFi products generally go up and up in price (more than just inflation)... The B&W 805 has moved from around $2.5K to $5K in the latest version, so a large move upmarket for that pair of speakers...

[Mash]

Price increases and market position are different.

I bought a new Camry in 1991 for $12000 and a new Camry in 2007 for $23000. True, the 2007 is 3X the 1991 version.... but they are both Camrys.

Also people may not like "having to settle for less" so having one "model line" with different "trim lines" softens that blow. You cannot get the customer to buy if you make him/her feel bad about their purchase.

[Ajani]

Price increases and market position are different.

I bought a new Camry in 1991 for $12000 and a new Camry in 2007 for $23000. True, the 2007 is 3X the 1991 version.... but they are both Camrys.

Also people may not like "having to settle for less" so having one "model line" with different "trim lines" softens that blow. You cannot get the customer to buy if you make him/her feel bad about their purchase.

There were probably around 4 or 5 Camry models and a lot of inflation in between 91 and 07... The B&W example is literally from one year's model to the next... It was not about inflation... The new model uses a Diamond tweeter (far more expensive than anything used on the previous versions... So it is a change in market position, and not just price...

HiFi brands tend to move successful product lines up and then introduce cheaper lines below them to take over their old positions...

I'll have to see the new Revel line, but it may just be that Revel has gone for the latest trend of having a smaller monitor and tower in the line-up (the usual 5" driver in the smaller models versus 6.5" in the larger models)... So the replacements for the existing speakers may be around the same price as the old versions... while the 2 new models might sacrifice driver and cabinet size to meet lower price points...

[RGA]

Just a note - the B&W 805 has several different versions which explains some of their prices - they have been fairly stable over the years hovering around the $3k mark.

I am always a fan of a speaker that stays the same for a long period of time and doesn't change name badges or add MKII to the badge.

The price goes up and that means the owner loses less money.

The funny thing is that I can actually sell my OTO Phono SE and AN J speakers for more money than I paid for them a few years back. In the case of the J I probably make $1000 and the OTO I could make at least $500 on since the prices for the same models have risen over the years.

With my move to Hong Kong I will be forced into selling some things - The OTO can easily be changed over for the power here but the turntable will be a nightmare so I will probably have to sell it.

[Ajani]

Just a note - the B&W 805 has several different versions which explains some of their prices - they have been fairly stable over the years hovering around the $3k mark.

I am always a fan of a speaker that stays the same for a long period of time and doesn't change name badges or add MKII to the badge.

The price goes up and that means the owner loses less money.

The funny thing is that I can actually sell my OTO Phono SE and AN J speakers for more money than I paid for them a few years back. In the case of the J I probably make $1000 and the OTO I could make at least $500 on since the prices for the same models have risen over the years.

With my move to Hong Kong I will be forced into selling some things - The OTO can easily be changed over for the power here but the turntable will be a nightmare so I will probably have to sell it.

There is only one version of the 805 now... The 805 Diamond which is about double the price of the previous 805S...

[RGA]

There is only one version of the 805 now... The 805 Diamond which is about double the price of the previous 805S...

Well if they only changed the tweeter - it isn't worth it. There isn't enough bass and dynamics and weight and "believability" to the speakers to be worth $2k let alone the $5k. The Roksan speaker I am currently reviewing MUCH MUCH better than the prior 805 loudspeakers and goes for $1500. Much better integration of drivers - arguably one of the best Ribbon to cone integration I have heard - without that you really have nothing - and B&W's never integrate really at any price.

[Mash]

Diamond tweeters? Diamonds are stones... very hard stones...

The goal for a dynamic tweeter is to use a very stiff and very light tweeter that responds quickly without ANY
cone or dome distortion.

So HOW does coating a dome or whatever with bits of stone make that dome both VERY stiff AND very light? The adhesive would be the limiting factror, not the bits of stone.

Or are they machining diamonds into cones or domes?

I understand how Magnepan gains a dynamic response advantage by changing from 1 mil Mylar to 0.5 mil Mylar for their diaphragms.

So please be specific.

[Ajani]

Well if they only changed the tweeter - it isn't worth it. There isn't enough bass and dynamics and weight and "believability" to the speakers to be worth $2k let alone the $5k. The Roksan speaker I am currently reviewing MUCH MUCH better than the prior 805 loudspeakers and goes for $1500. Much better integration of drivers - arguably one of the best Ribbon to cone integration I have heard - without that you really have nothing - and B&W's never integrate really at any price.

I know the main change is the Diamond tweeter, but there are supposed to be others as well.. I doubt the bass response is much better than the previous version though... I also found the integration of the previous version truly lacking... and the bass seemed sad when compared to speakers like the Dynaudio Focus 140 (I heard in the same demo)...

The Roksan K2 line has received overwhelmingly positive reviews (especially in What HiFi), so I'd love to audition them one day...

[frenchmon]

Diamond tweeters? Diamonds are stones... very hard stones...

The goal for a dynamic tweeter is to use a very stiff and very light tweeter that responds quickly without ANY
cone or dome distortion.

So HOW does coating a dome or whatever with bits of stone make that dome both VERY stiff AND very light? The adhesive would be the limiting factror, not the bits of stone.

Or are they machining diamonds into cones or domes?

I understand how Magnepan gains a dynamic response advantage by changing from 1 mil Mylar to 0.5 mil Mylar for their diaphragms.

So please be specific.

I would like to know this technology as well....this is all I can find for now:


http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Images/SeriesFeature/xxlarge/800--Tech--Diamond-tweeters.jpg Why use diamond for tweeter domes? It may seem extravagant, but the move is simply an extension of Bowers & Wilkins’s pursuit of the perfect loudspeaker. One element of our quest for the best is the development of drive units that neither add nor subtract from the signal. In a tweeter, that means creating a dome that remains rigid, exhibiting perfectly piston-like behaviour, as far up the frequency scale as possible. Best for this are materials with a high stiffness to density ratio - which is where diamond comes in.
Find out more Bowers & Wilkins - Diamond Tweeters (http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Discover/Discover/Technologies/Diamond_Tweeters.html)

[Jack in Wilmington]

I find it interesting that B&W raised their prices that much when they switched to the diamond tweeter, but the Usher BE718 only went from $2795 to $2999 when they made the switch. This was also the reason my local HiFi shop dropped B&W. Nobody was buying the diamond tweeter price increase and they were either buying Paradigm Studio series or Sonus Faber.

[Mr Peabody]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound :)

[Ajani]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound :)

:eek6::eek6::eek6:


:sosp::sosp::sosp:



LOL

[frenchmon]

Peabody!!!! just where did you hear that!??!?!?! I would be surprised if there was any truth in that!!!

This is the end of the year...not April Fools man!

So kindly site your source here please!

[RGA]

Jack

It's just marketing BS from B&W - Usher incidentally sounds a lot better for a lot less.

B&W goes on about tube tapering to reduce ringing but their tweeters CREATE the ringing in the first place. So the 705 does a poor job of it so you upgrade to the 805 but it's only marginally better so you buy the diamond version. Once that is somewhat acceptably satisfying the speakers still don't integrate properly and they don't have much bass - so you buy a sub - more integration problems.

Every few years they come out with some new driver that will fix loudspeakers forever. The Be 10 is several thousand less than the D802 - and IMO there's no comparison.

[Ajani]

Another slightly different version of the announcement of new products from the Harman Luxury Audio Group (I love the name - about damn time someone in high end accepts that their products are luxury items):

Harman Group Adding Audio Under Four Brands - 2011-12-19 05:01:00 | TWICE (http://www.twice.com/article/478027-Harman_Group_Adding_Audio_Under_Four_Brands.php)

[Mr Peabody]

Good to see Levinson offering digital sources again. The JBL Array are really good too. I couldn't get them to image in my room properly but they did convince me JBL can make some top flight gear. Stereophile gave the Array 1400's a Class A rating FWIW.

[RGA]

Not to Nitpick - but the class ratings are chosen by one guy - John Atkinson - not really "Stereophile" since that implies a consensus or even a majority would choose a given product. That is not what happens. A more apt name like the Brit magazines do - is name it Editor's Choice.

The reason I note this distinction is because a magazine is made up of a say 10 reviewers or more. Each has their own view and each would come up with very different lists.

It would be like a hypothetical world of watching the old Siskel and Ebert and they each choose a ten best list but only one list gets presented because Ebert owns the show and he dismisses what Siskel chooses. And if you watched the show you'd know both would have loved that :-)

[frenchmon]

Good to see Levinson offering digital sources again. The JBL Array are really good too. I couldn't get them to image in my room properly but they did convince me JBL can make some top flight gear. Stereophile gave the Array 1400's a Class A rating FWIW.

Yeah the Array are good speakers. I keep thinking they where just to big for your room and may have needed more power to bring out the best in them. They seem to not do voices correctly and not image they way they should have. I betcha it was one of those synergy problems.

[Ajani]

Not to Nitpick - but the class ratings are chosen by one guy - John Atkinson - not really "Stereophile" since that implies a consensus or even a majority would choose a given product. That is not what happens. A more apt name like the Brit magazines do - is name it Editor's Choice.

The reason I note this distinction is because a magazine is made up of a say 10 reviewers or more. Each has their own view and each would come up with very different lists.

It would be like a hypothetical world of watching the old Siskel and Ebert and they each choose a ten best list but only one list gets presented because Ebert owns the show and he dismisses what Siskel chooses. And if you watched the show you'd know both would have loved that :-)

I read the December review of the Rega Brio-R by Sam Tellig and while I see that Sam liked the amp and thought the phono stage was the best he had heard in a $1K amp, I still have no idea where he would rate the amp. For all I know the amp may get a Class D rating in the recommended components issue.

I really wish that the Stereophile reviewers would rate each product at the end of their reviews... So we could know what the reviewer really thought of the rating at the time... They should still have the Recommended Products Issue (or Editors Choice if you prefer)... They can always put a little disclaimer at the end of each review to state that the rating by the reviewer is not the final rating and is subject to change in the Recommended Products Issue.

This practice would not even be entirely new as some reviews do state quite plainly that the reviewer thinks the product is class A or borderline class B etc... So it would just make it a consistent requirement...

[Mash]

So folks still anguish over Steriopile equipment ratings? I am glad. Somebody has to- I quit c. 1978. Too often something was Class A or Class B one year and then not even mentioned the next year. One could also track the advertisements, but that was being cynical.

I completely gave up when a reviewer complained that the SPL meter he was using to measure loudspeakers was rather non-linear. It was an A-weighted meter. Gee, maybe he should have tried a C-weighted meter?

I still think that one should attend a generous number of recitals and then get what provides a similar sound. Then be happy and save the rest of your money for retirement. TV's are being improved every year so that we can better see the junk shown, but sound equipment?

Bargain of the Day: Audiophile Outlet is offering some Einstein 60W mono OTL amps for $20,000 each. Includes a premium caps upgrade. Better hurry.

[RGA]

Ajani

I'm not sure there is any point because the awards thing is business - big sellers. The reviewers at these magazines do not hear every component - they hear the ones they get for review - and some hear a lot more than others and they have to remember what they heard over the years to try and slot the product into some sort of rating scheme. I have tried but it still boils down to an incomplete selection at given price points.

Hi-Fi Choice at least does blind level matched session but that still is only against the competition for that particular issues. So an amp that finishes say in 3rd place - might have finished first in a test three months later in effect it could be that that amp beats a recommended amp in a different issue.

Even my argument - "what did the reviewer actually buy" - this IMO is telling in that the reviewer spent his own cash on the speakers and if he has heard a lot of speakers over the years then that speaker is the best he has heard in that price range (and under) on the market. BUT, he may like a speaker better at 4 times the money - just can't afford it (even with a reviewer discount - which often just the price you could pay for it on the second hand or demo market).

I am often curious about lists because they don't make much sense most of the time.

Speaker 1 is class B.

Stereophile reviewers and technical article contributors

Reviewer 1 (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers) bought the speaker and says he would give it A++. (long time Quad panel owner)

Reviewer 2: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and well versed in technical issues - "for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the [speaker 1] system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard." (long time Dynaudio, Revel, Wilson owner and yet speaker 1 beats them all in his very own words)

Reviewer 3: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and recording engineer and technical writers) "Dunno 'bout "best," but here's the most memorable....Now, the last movement of the Wheeler completion is longer than many whole symphonies of the Classical era, but all of us were entranced.../...I later analogized it by saying that most hi-fi gave you a clear view of an animatronic dummy, while that system give you a somewhat foggy window with a real person on the other side..../...But that [speaker 1] system did things I have not heard since.

Technical Adviser contributing editor bought the speakers.

Speaker 2 (class A rated) - no one bought a pair - no one extolled any such verbiage on them - claiming "best they ever heard or most memorable sound etc). And there are a LOT of class A rated speakers where no such verbiage and no reviewer bought a pair. Indeed reading the review of some of them the noted issues in the treble or lacking dynamics makes me want to puke a little in my mouth. Best of the best and it's bright or is dynamically anaemic - probably the two most important aspects of sound reproduction - bright means you can't listen long - write-off. Dynamics is the lifeblood of music.

So you tell me how exactly that makes any sense.

The only thing that makes sense for a consumer is to find a particular reviewer you agree with when it comes to sound reproduction. Follow the reviewer not the magazine. You won't even get reviewers on the same staff to agree with each other on the sound. I may agree with them on politics and some products but not every one of them. Two writers at Stereophile are complete opposites - one preferring SET the other thinks it's terrible and believes you need 1000 watt amps as some sort of minimum reading between the lines. How could they possibly come up with class A - unless of course they "settle" on the mediocrity middle ground where they both give something a pass. (judging by just about everything I have heard that gets class A it would not surprise me if the mediocrity rises to the top.

I'll give you an example - Movie reviews - There may be a movie that 100 critics see - 90 of them give it 3/5 which is a pass. 5 hate 1/5 and 5 liked it a fair bit 4/5- so the rating is 95% fresh

Looks great that is definitely a Class A race to the theater movie - but wait - in fact 90 out of the 100 really only marginally liked it with a 60% score and the 5 on each end cancel each other out. No one felt the movie was GREAT.

Film 2 gets 80% fresh rating - 60 out of 100 reviewers give it 5/5 thinking it's one of the year's or decade's best- 10 give it 4/5 and 10 give it 3/5 and 20 give it 2.5/5 (marginal thumbs down) but no one disliked it and 60% absolutely loved it and many are going to want the deluxe boxed set Blu Ray and are happy to shell out the cash for it.

The overall rating places this film in the second tier down list even though you have a real good chance of LOVING this movie - while the 95% class A rated movie most people like but none of the critics LOVE it and none of them want to buy the Blu Ray or even the DVD in the cheap bin.

What I want to know is would they buy if they could buy it and why not. Movie X was pretty good but I would never want to watch it again. I liked reviewing X component but I would never want to live with it long term. Or if he would buy it but didn't then explain why not. For instance had I had a different system and money - I would have bought the Grant Fidelity Rita amp or even better the Shengya monoblocks which are absurdly good. The OTO is simply better with the AN J not necessarily that the OTO itself is a better amp.

Eventually I will make a league table of gear. I have to think it through and I want to listen to several things several more times to be sure. I like Audiofederation's classifications of amplifiers and how they rate each company's top of the line amps against eachother - they have a list for tubes and one for SS. But it doesn't help those of us in the 'sane prices" camp.

[Ajani]

Speaker 1 is class B.

Stereophile reviewers and technical article contributors

Reviewer 1 (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers) bought the speaker and says he would give it A++. (long time Quad panel owner)

Reviewer 2: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and well versed in technical issues - "for sheer emotional delivery, timbral clarity, dynamic agility, and, yes, the highest fidelity, the [speaker 1] system may have been the best hi-fi I have ever heard." (long time Dynaudio, Revel, Wilson owner and yet speaker 1 beats them all in his very own words)

Reviewer 3: (one of their 5 most experienced reviewers and recording engineer and technical writers) "Dunno 'bout "best," but here's the most memorable....Now, the last movement of the Wheeler completion is longer than many whole symphonies of the Classical era, but all of us were entranced.../...I later analogized it by saying that most hi-fi gave you a clear view of an animatronic dummy, while that system give you a somewhat foggy window with a real person on the other side..../...But that [speaker 1] system did things I have not heard since.

Technical Adviser contributing editor bought the speakers.

Speaker 2 (class A rated) - no one bought a pair - no one extolled any such verbiage on them - claiming "best they ever heard or most memorable sound etc). And there are a LOT of class A rated speakers where no such verbiage and no reviewer bought a pair. Indeed reading the review of some of them the noted issues in the treble or lacking dynamics makes me want to puke a little in my mouth. Best of the best and it's bright or is dynamically anaemic - probably the two most important aspects of sound reproduction - bright means you can't listen long - write-off. Dynamics is the lifeblood of music.

LOL... I've damn near had the same reaction reading those kind of reviews... IMO, a Class A component should be free of such nasty limitations... In fact, that's where my definition for Class B begins... Class C or lower can have obvious flaws...

I like Stereophile's Class system as it is rare to see a mag have the balls to try rate each component on an absolute scale... So a $1K amp might be rated Class B and a $5K rated Class C...

However, I agree that the system is seriously flawed. The most obvious problem being the execution - Why does one product get class A versus another? Is it all down to the Editor's decision?



The only thing that makes sense for a consumer is to find a particular reviewer you agree with when it comes to sound reproduction. Follow the reviewer not the magazine. You won't even get reviewers on the same staff to agree with each other on the sound. I may agree with them on politics and some products but not every one of them.

Well this point actually ties in to my suggestion of having each reviewer rate the product on his own scale.... So If I have similar tastes to Art Dudley; then I know that a product rated Class A in his review (within my budget) is a MUST audition... I can always put products rated Class A by Mike Fremer or John Atkinson at the bottom of my audition list (assuming I generally don't share their respective tastes in equipment)...

[Mash]

Use a Pugh Matrix.

I use these for real estate, because houses can be so variable and impossible to compare, and one needs a tool that measures each house's CTQ's on a level playing field.

1. First you define your list of CTQ's (Critical to Quality). These define what is important to YOU.
2. Then you assign a weighting factor to each CTQ. Say 1,2,3,4 or 5.

Steps 1. & 2. will consume the majority of your time.......

3. Now you evaluate each unit by giving a score for each CTQ. I use 1, 3, 9
............ 1 = less than I expected; 3 = what I expected; and 9 = significantly better than what I expected.

When you look at each house you will focus only on YOUR list of CTQ's. Sometimes you have to rebuild your list of CTQ's to get your goal(s) correctly defined.

You wind up with "Score = Sum of {CTQ W.F.} times {score for CTQ.}

To wit:

1. 3 x 3 = 9
2. 1 x 4 = 4
3. 9 x 2 = 18
Score = 31

Some CTQ's for houses:

1. Traffic Pattern (how do people move through the house?)
2. Quality of Construction
3. Landscaping
4. Location - w/r/t Work
5. Location - w/r/t Schools
6. Location - w/r/t is it on a busy street/road?
7. Basement (Dry?)
8. Storage
............. and so forth.

At this point, comparisons become easy.

You can calculate

COST = "Price / Score", and "Price / Square Feet"

QUALITY of Sq. Ft. = "Score / Square feet"

[Mr Peabody]

The fact is the JBL Array 1400's were given a Class A rating. Notice I did state "FWIW" for what it's worth. There have been Class A gear on the list I wouldn't personally own nor understood the rating given.

Hi Fi is subjective to us all, there is a lot of expensive gear I wouldn't personally use in my listening room yet gets good reviews and some one must buy it because the companies are still in business. Also, adjectives used to describe gear usually mean different things to different people. Every one has their own meaning come to mind when hearing "emotion", "musical", "warm" etc. Some dismiss reviews all together some find them fun and some misled count them as gospel.

[Ajani]

The fact is the JBL Array 1400's were given a Class A rating. Notice I did state "FWIW" for what it's worth. There have been Class A gear on the list I wouldn't personally own nor understood the rating given.

Hi Fi is subjective to us all, there is a lot of expensive gear I wouldn't personally use in my listening room yet gets good reviews and some one must buy it because the companies are still in business. Also, adjectives used to describe gear usually mean different things to different people. Every one has their own meaning come to mind when hearing "emotion", "musical", "warm" etc. Some dismiss reviews all together some find them fun and some misled count them as gospel.

I think the mistake is to take reviews too seriously... I think people who either treat them as gospel or dismiss them completely miss the point of reviews. A review gives you an idea of products to audition. Products should not be purchased based solely on the basis of reviews (unless you are ordering from a internet only brand with a very good return policy - in which case it's really just an in-home-audition).

[RGA]

I think the main problem is that today everything gets a rave review. let's face it most stuff is at least decent - and some stuff is quite good but perhaps too expensive to be "merely" good.

Some stuff plays better with certain stuff and doesn't with certain other stuff.

You can go with measurements but looking at what reviewers actually buy after listening to hundreds of pieces of gear and arguably being more experienced than the average Joe - I don't see any correlation with what they end up choosing at the graph. I also don't see with "independent" blind level matched sessions as the stuff that gets chosen as sounding the best doesn't measure the best. And it needs to be independent - not run by a corporation.

The other is to go with reviews.

IMO there are two good ways to do this - one is to go with a reviewer who hears it the same as you. Chances are if you and him agree 90% of the time then there is a good chance you will like his next recommendation. This however doesn't mean you will - just means you have a better chance that you will.

Option two is the consensus approach. Do many reviewers like it from different countries at different totally independent magazines. Better if they bought them or go way over the top.

Saying "This speaker was wonderfully revealing and had solid bass and treble response was a pleasure to listen to and I highly recommend it to everyone" is still very much different from "this is the best hi-fi I have ever heard and everything else is noise." One is a very nice product at a given price point the other is world class.

To me it is important to recognize the difference in the language used because IME there is very very clearly a gradation in sound quality from one system to another system - hell there is that just WITHIN some company line-ups.

[manlystanley]

Option two is the consensus approach. Do many reviewers like it from different countries at different totally independent magazines. Better if they bought them or go way over the top.



This is the approach that I try to do. One of the sites that I used for equipment search is: EXCELIA HIFI - top 1000 (http://www.excelia-hifi.cz/top.html)

Best regards,
Stan

[Ajani]

Option two is the consensus approach. Do many reviewers like it from different countries at different totally independent magazines. Better if they bought them or go way over the top.

Even though that's a decent strategy, it has major flaws as well. What if you're the odd man out? Most persons could love it and you still think nothing of it.

Take the Benchmark DAC1 as an example: easily one of the most raved about HiFi products, with a decade of rave reviews worldwide from both Pro Audio and HiFi Mags (a truly rare accomplishment). Also a load of reviewers own one. So does that mean everyone likes it? Hell no! There are lots of persons who claim it is cold, analytical, over-rated, etc...

[manlystanley]

Even though that's a decent strategy, it has major flaws as well. What if you're the odd man out? Most persons could love it and you still think nothing of it.



For someone of your defined taste, that makes perfect sense. However, for me sometimes I don't know what I like. For instance, I hear protracted arguments among various people about some nuance, and then I go and listen to the equipment being debated. Well, I hear the difference, but depending on what I had for lunch that day I can go either way on which one I really like the best.

My approach to buying equipment is to:

-- Find equipment that gets the most positive reviews.
-- Find equipment that is compared against much higher selling equipment.
-- Then buy them when there are really discounted (e.g. used or on deep discounts.).

Most times this strategy works (for me), but a few instances it really didn't work. But, my costs in general have been very low (comparatively)

I'd imagine as I get more rarefied listening skills I'll become like all of you guys, but until then ignorance is bliss (or should I say cheaper?)

Best Regards,
Stan

[Tarheel_]

Thanks for the reminder....my local Revel dealer didn't have any Performas a few months ago because he was waiting for the new line.

I cannot wait to get down there for some serious demo time!

side note: I thought the Concerta floorstanders sounded excellent and were a total bargain when I discovered the price. I guessed about $700 too high.

If you can find some Concertas on close out, get 'em and enjoy!

[Ajani]

Thanks for the reminder....my local Revel dealer didn't have any Performas a few months ago because he was waiting for the new line.

I cannot wait to get down there for some serious demo time!

side note: I thought the Concerta floorstanders sounded excellent and were a total bargain when I discovered the price. I guessed about $700 too high.

If you can find some Concertas on close out, get 'em and enjoy!

The Concerta F12 are something truly special. I suspect the one thing that kept them from really doing a lot better was the ho hum aesthetics... Just large and plain looking... The old Performa F30s are massive but have funky styling... I can't wait to see what the new Performa line looks like.

[RGA]

Even though that's a decent strategy, it has major flaws as well. What if you're the odd man out? Most persons could love it and you still think nothing of it.

Take the Benchmark DAC1 as an example: easily one of the most raved about HiFi products, with a decade of rave reviews worldwide from both Pro Audio and HiFi Mags (a truly rare accomplishment). Also a load of reviewers own one. So does that mean everyone likes it? Hell no! There are lots of persons who claim it is cold, analytical, over-rated, etc...

You are correct - not everyone can like everything although I think it depends how the unit is judged. I heard nothing cold or analytical or anything remotely bad about the Benchmark DAC I heard. So it may be an issue with the rest of their system.

Anything can sound bad in a system that isn't appropriate for it. Usually mix and match systems have more problems in this regard - people blame the wrong components.

[Ajani]

Here we go, the details on the Performa 3:


LAS VEGAS, Nevada – HARMAN’s Revel today announced the introduction of its Performa3 loudspeakers, a complete range of home theater and music loudspeakers that incorporates significant engineering enhancements to the original Performa Series to deliver extraordinary music and movie soundtrack reproduction. Complementing their audiophile-caliber performance, Revel Performa3 loudspeakers are stunning in appearance, with a choice of high-gloss real wood and automotive-grade painted finishes.
The 10 models in the Performa3 line include the following:

F308 3-way floorstanding tower (1-inch tweeter, 5.25-inch midrange, three 8-inch woofers; SRP: $6,000/pr)
F208 3-way floorstanding tower (1-inch tweeter, 5.25-inch midrange, dual 8-inch woofers; SRP: 4,500/pr)
F206 3-way floorstanding tower (1-inch tweeter, 5.25-inch midrange, dual 6.5-inch woofers; SRP: 3,000/pr)
M106 2-way bookshelf monitor (1-inch tweeter, 6.5-inch woofer; SRP: $1,700/pr)
M105 2-way bookshelf monitor (1-inch tweeter, 5.25-inch woofer; SRP: $1,200/pr)
C208 3-way center channel (1-inch tweeter, 4-inch midrange, dual 8-inch woofers; SRP: $1,700/ea)
C205 2-way center channel (1-inch tweeter, dual 5.25-inch woofers; SRP: $1,000/ea)
S206 2-way surround speaker (dual 1-inch tweeters, dual 6.5-inch woofers; SRP: 1,800/pr)
B112 powered subwoofer (12-inch woofer, built-in 1000-watt amplifier; SRP: $2,500/ea)
B110 powered subwoofer (10-inch woofer, built-in 500-watt amplifier; SRP: $1,700/ea)

“Our Revel Performa loudspeakers have earned rave reviews from audiophiles since their initial introduction,” said Jim Garrett, Senior Manager, Marketing for HARMAN Luxury Audio Group. “We have made a number of advancements in loudspeaker materials and manufacturing technologies that we are now able to incorporate into the upgraded Performa3 models. We are confident that listeners will be thrilled with the improvements in sonic performance and musical accuracy.”
To achieve their superior sound quality, Revel Performa3 loudspeakers deploy proprietary drivers throughout. The 1-inch pure-aluminum-dome tweeters deliver airy, extended high-frequency response to beyond 20kHz, with superlative detail and clarity. The tweeters operate into an exclusive Acoustic Lens Waveguide that is precisely shaped for optimum imaging and horizontal and vertical dispersion both on-and off axis.
The midrange and low-frequency drivers employ aluminum cones for extraordinary resolution and responsiveness, along with a seamless sonic blend with the tweeters. The cones have integral ribs that add strength and rigidity for clear, richly detailed sound with reduced distortion even at higher volumes. The drivers incorporate additional refinements including cast-aluminum frames and efficiently vented, high-power motor structures, to deliver smooth, natural vocal and instrumental reproduction.
Only the finest materials and internal components are used for Revel Performa3 loudspeakers, including air-core inductors and audiophile-grade polypropylene capacitors in the crossover network, and heavy-duty gold-plated binding posts. Depending on the model, a tweeter level control allows the speakers’ high-frequency balance to be fine-tuned, and a Boundary control enables the speakers to be tailored to individual room acoustics and placement positions.
The enclosures are built to the highest standards, with internal damping and bracing at critical locations and curved side panels that minimize cabinet-induced coloration. The larger models feature individual sub-enclosures for the midrange drivers for maximum midrange clarity and definition. Each Revel Performa3 loudspeaker is individually calibrated against a manufacturing reference standard to ensure absolutely consistent performance from every speaker that leaves the factory.
Revel Performa3 loudspeakers are as stunning in appearance as they are in performance with elegantly proportioned curved and contoured enclosures that are available in a choice of high-gloss real-wood and automotive-grade painted finishes.
Revel Performa3 loudspeakers will be available in Q2 2012 except the F308 and B110, which will be available in September 2012.

http://www.revelspeakers.com/images/pagephotos/pg_80_634617041856175014_Revel%20P3%20Family.jpg

[Ajani]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-R4hNoC4fJks/TwsU4dIOcFI/AAAAAAAAA_0/3X2utdSMl5A/s1600/Revel%2BP3%2BFamily.jpg

[Mr Peabody]

I got to hear the $22k Salon Saturday. They were driven by the new Levinson 532H and 326 pre. The sound was outstanding, like being at a live show. I mean the sound pressure, transparency and immediacy really transcended me. Compared to other ultra high end gear I've heard this package I'm talking about is a value at the tune of around $40k. And we were using my T+A and the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC. I can only imagine what it would sound like with a higher end player. Frenchmon liked the PSA right off but I think I am too used to my player, after listening a while I finally had to admit overall the PSA was better than my player because it gave fuller more extended images. However, that was my second time hearing this DAC, the first time with it's PSA transport, I have to say only in my opinion I feel purely based on sound it's over priced. I think people are being charged for all the filtering and upsampling but there are much better CDP's for the same $6k it cost for the transport/DAC combo. I usually don't care much about looks of gear but I do like the Ultima series, something about that gloss black finish and the shape.

Boy the timing of my Performa purchase was off. Oh well, hind sight.

[Ajani]

I got to hear the $22k Salon Saturday. They were driven by the new Levinson 532H and 326 pre. The sound was outstanding, like being at a live show. I mean the sound pressure, transparency and immediacy really transcended me. Compared to other ultra high end gear I've heard this package I'm talking about is a value at the tune of around $40k. And we were using my T+A and the PS Audio Perfect Wave DAC. I can only imagine what it would sound like with a higher end player. Frenchmon liked the PSA right off but I think I am too used to my player, after listening a while I finally had to admit overall the PSA was better than my player because it gave fuller more extended images. However, that was my second time hearing this DAC, the first time with it's PSA transport, I have to say only in my opinion I feel purely based on sound it's over priced. I think people are being charged for all the filtering and upsampling but there are much better CDP's for the same $6k it cost for the transport/DAC combo. I usually don't care much about looks of gear but I do like the Ultima series, something about that gloss black finish and the shape.

Boy the timing of my Performa purchase was off. Oh well, hind sight.

Off or not, you got a great pair of speakers and probably at a good price, so no need to sweat it... (Also the new Performa F308 with the 3 x 8" drivers might be too much bass for your room)...

[JohnMichael]

The M106 would look great in my room. Of course until the Krell is back from service everything else is on hold.

[Ajani]

The M106 would look great in my room. Of course until the Krell is back from service everything else is on hold.

I have my eye on either the F206 or the M106. I hope detailed specs and some proper photos are available soon.

[frenchmon]

Peabody....what gear is not over priced...yeah some more than others but over priced. Especially when it was confirmed to me the price you quoted me that he got the Salons at and the price consumers pay.

Ajani: Peabody and too much bass?!?!?!? There is never enough bass for Peabody! And I and not overstating that fact. LoL! That guy loves him some bass!

I too think Peabody got the better end with his F52's. From the looks of those drawings, the old Performa2 series looks better.

[Ajani]

Ajani: Peabody and too much bass?!?!?!? There is never enough bass for Peabody! And I and not overstating that fact. LoL! That guy loves him some bass!

You're right. What the hell was I thinking??? LOL


I too think Peabody got the better end with his F52's. From the looks of those drawings, the old Performa2 series looks better.

The F52 was the best looking of the old line (I really hated the look of the tweeter on the M22 and F32 models). Also, I can't tell how the new line will really look until some actual pics come out... Drawings can look really different from the finished product.

[frenchmon]

I have to say something about the Salon's we listened to last Saturday night and the Studio's before that. Both where being driven by Levinson, and we listened to both Revel's for over 3 hours each. Both are some of the best speakers in the world of audiophilia. But I dont believe the Salons are 6k better than the Studio's. Infact, I thought the Studio's had a blacker background and are less aggressive than the Salons.

Now I know the T+A CDP is agressive in nature, but the Salons remained more agressive than the Studio's when we switched over to the PS Audio DAC/ Sony transport outfit , though a tad tamer than with the T+A CDP . The Salons do every thing else about the same as the Studio's but only louder. And both speakers are just stunning to look at....and having said that, they both disappear once you start listening to the music......

..... Oh...and Patrica Barber??? Well you ain't heard Patrica Barber unless you heard her on a Revel system or another very high end speaker system. There is a reason why audiophiles or hobbyist seem to like her....her recordings are audiophile quality.

[Ajani]

I have to say something about the Salon's we listened to last Saturday night and the Studio's before that. Both where being driven by Levinson, and we listened to both Revel's for over 3 hours each. Both are some of the best speakers in the world of audiophilia. But I dont believe the Salons are 6k better than the Studio's. Infact, I thought the Studio's had a blacker background and are less aggressive than the Salons.

Now I know the T+A CDP is agressive in nature, but the Salons remained more agressive than the Studio's when we switched over to the PS Audio DAC/ Sony transport outfit , though a tad tamer than with the T+A CDP . The Salons do every thing else about the same as the Studio's but only louder. And both speakers are just stunning to look at....and having said that, they both disappear once you start listening to the music......

..... Oh...and Patrica Barber??? Well you ain't heard Patrica Barber unless you heard her on a Revel system or another very high end speaker system. There is a reason why audiophiles or hobbyist seem to like her....her recordings are audiophile quality.

I didn't expect there to be any difference in sound between the Studio2 and Salon2, other than that Salon2 is designed to play louder and lower in larger rooms...

[frenchmon]

Yeah...your expectations are spot on. Revel has turned Peabody into a believer. They must be doing the bass right, while at the same time satisfying his desire for a better upper midrange and treble presentation.

I've heard at great lenghts the Salon's2, Studio's2, F52's, M22's and the The F12's and the M12's. I am now wondering how the new Performa 3 series stacks up to the previous line, and if the change was for the better? I am wondering what different voicing they have done if any. Im sure Peabodys dealer will get some of the Performa 3 series into his display....I cant wait.

[Ajani]

I've heard at great lenghts the Salon's2, Studio's2, F52's, M22's and the The F12's and the M12's.

So which one are you going to buy? :biggrin5:

[Ajani]

First real pic below and IMO MUCH better looking than the drawing:

http://www.hometheater.com/images/011112revel.jpg

Revel Shows Middle Speaker Line | Home Theater (http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-shows-middle-speaker-line)

[Ajani]

Another pic:

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/396429_326994357332838_214497451915863_1145648_145 3145339_n.jpg

[frenchmon]

They look nice. If I was going to purchase in the next month or so, I would have to decide from Canton, Wharfedale Jade series, and Revel Performa 3.

[Ajani]

And another one:

http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/201201/ces_harman_6_PERFORMA3_big.jpg

[frenchmon]

Hmmmmm. the smaller tower reminds me of Paradigm Sig s6

http://www.paradigm.com/components/com_mtree/img/listings/o/580.jpg http://www.phileweb.com/news/photo/201201/ces_harman_6_PERFORMA3_big.jpg

[Ajani]

Hmmmmm. the smaller tower reminds me of Paradigm Sig s6

It has a similar, though far less 'blingy', appearance. I appreciate Revel's decision to use black trim rather than silver.

[JohnMichael]

It has a similar, though far less 'blingy', appearance. I appreciate Revel's decision to use black trim rather than silver.


I have to agree that the small Revel tower is much more to my liking. I have not heard either so I am commenting on my viusal choice.

[frenchmon]

Yeah they are less blingy, but the bling never botherd me. I like Paradigms lively character. Though I've never heard the Signature series, Peabody and I read a pro review where the guy said the the Signature S8 at $8k sound a lot like the Revel Studio2's at half the price. IF that's true, tha'ts saying something...

...Im sure the dealer here in St. Louis...the same guy who sold Peabody the F52,s and the same guy we hang out with at his home listening to his Salons and Studio's is going to be hounding me now to buy some new Revels.

[Ajani]

Yeah they are less blingy, but the bling never botherd me. I like Paradigms lively character. Though I've never heard the Signature series, Peabody and I read a pro review where the guy said the the Signature S8 at $8k sound a lot like the Revel Studio2's at half the price. IF that's true, tha'ts saying something...

...Im sure the dealer here in St. Louis...the same guy who sold Peabody the F52,s and the same guy we hang out with at his home listening to his Salons and Studio's is going to be hounding me now to buy some new Revels.

I haven't heard the Studio 2, but I can't say that I liked the Signature S6. It just sounded loud and harsh when I auditioned it on an all Rotel system. Could be synergy, since Rotel is not what I'd call a subtle laid back brand. So perhaps the overall system was just too lively.

[frenchmon]

Looking at the new Revels, they should have put a little bling in the tweeter to break up the flow of black.

[frenchmon]

I haven't heard the Studio 2, but I can't say that I liked the Signature S6. It just sounded loud and harsh when I auditioned it on an all Rotel system. Could be synergy, since Rotel is not what I'd call a subtle laid back brand. So perhaps the overall system was just too lively.

Rotel and Paradigm (Reference) Signature S6.....naw, that sounds like a disaster! Dont think the Rotel would not get out all of the Sigs goodness. But I could be wrong, Guys love there B&W with Rotel.

For me it would be more like Signature and Levinson...Yeah !!!!

[frenchmon]

Ajani....I know you are a well read man....astute! I've never heard a Wharfedale speaker in my life, but have always liked the looks and reviews of the now discontinued Opus line and now the new Jade series that replaced them. Do you know anything about Wharfedale?

[Ajani]

Ajani....I know you are a well read man....astute! I've never heard a Wharfedale speaker in my life, but have always liked the looks and reviews of the now discontinued Opus line and now the new Jade series that replaced them. Do you know anything about Wharfedale?

I really don't know much about Wharfedale. I Know their Diamond Series has generally received good reviews and the Jade 5 is 5 star rated by WHF. But I've never auditioned one. Actually, I've never even seen one in a store.

I get the impression that they sometimes get overlooked in Britain on account of being "Britain's Most Famous Loudspeakers". Much like the way many audiophiles would dismiss a Klipsch or JBL model without even auditioning it.

If you get to audition one, then let me know how you like it. Especially if you get to compare it to Revel.

[Ajani]

The most exciting thing about the Performa3 line is that the successor to the F32 (the F206) is $1K cheaper than the F32. Also the M106 is $300 less than the M22. I really love the new price points. Most brands tend to either adjust for inflation or take the opportunity to launch a more expensive product than the old one.

Take for example my other favourite brand, Monitor Audio. The GS20 ($3K) was replaced by GX200 at $4.5K. That's a whole other level of quality not just a mere update of the old version.

So while the F206 is down to $3K from the F32 ($4K), the GX200 is up to $4.5K from the GS20 ($3K). Guess which one I'll be saving my pennies for.

[Ajani]

One more:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/391822_10150492435332992_756077991_8886689_1831043 458_n.jpg

[frenchmon]

Yeah...from looking at the pics....they need a little bling. And after seeing the Studio and Salon in person and taking a close look at them from front to back, they are amazing to look at, but in my estimation, could use a little bling as well.

The Jade 5 and 3 has just enough bling in my opinion.

http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/WD-Wharfedale-Jade.jpg

http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Portals/0/Image/news/introducing.jpg

[Ajani]

Yeah...from looking at the pics....they need a little bling. And after seeing the Studio and Salon in person and taking a close look at them from front to back, they are amazing to look at, but in my estimation, could use a little bling as well.

The Jade 5 and 3 has just enough bling in my opinion.

http://www.witchdoctor.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/WD-Wharfedale-Jade.jpg

http://www.wharfedale.co.uk/Portals/0/Image/news/introducing.jpg

The Jades certainly have style, without being too blingy IMO...

[Ajani]

Close up of the C208:

http://www.hometheater.com/images/Performa%20center.jpg

Revel Me This | Home Theater (http://www.hometheater.com/content/revel-me)

[Ajani]

F208:

http://www.hometheater.com/images/Performa%20floor%20stander.jpg

More Revel | Home Theater (http://www.hometheater.com/content/more-revel)

[frenchmon]

Nice...are you at the show with your camera?

[Ajani]

Nice...are you at the show with your camera?

I wish. The links (below the pics) are from hometheatre.com

[Ajani]

Better pic of M106:

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/images/stories/lasvegas2012/revel2_690w.jpg

Roger's Revel-ation (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&catid=82&Itemid=246)

[Ajani]

Best quality pic so far:

http://www.soundstageglobal.com/images/stories/lasvegas2012/revel1_690w.jpg

Roger's Revel-ation (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&catid=82&Itemid=246)

[frenchmon]

Man!!!! They look nice!

So I assume thats 2 of the F208's? The F308 has 3 woofers according to the information I've read.

[Ajani]

Man!!!! They look nice!

So I assume thats 2 of the F208's? The F308 has 3 woofers according to the information I've read.

Yep. I love the new look. I don't think models of the F308 or the B110 were at CES. So that is another F208 (probably the one they were using to audition the speakers at the show).

Best of all, the initial impressions of the sound of the new range have been extremely positive.

[YBArcam]

Well if they only changed the tweeter - it isn't worth it. There isn't enough bass and dynamics and weight and "believability" to the speakers to be worth $2k let alone the $5k. The Roksan speaker I am currently reviewing MUCH MUCH better than the prior 805 loudspeakers and goes for $1500. Much better integration of drivers - arguably one of the best Ribbon to cone integration I have heard - without that you really have nothing - and B&W's never integrate really at any price.

Amount of bass I would think depends on the room and associated equipment. In a small room what is considered a bass-light speaker might be fine. I happen to think that bass is usually over emphasized anyways. Live music is kind of light sounding. Dynaudio is known for producing prodigious bass. I have heard a pair and it was way over the top, the bass overwhelmed everything else. I'm sure they can be made to sound better though, with the right room and system matching, toe in, etc.

Okay, you can't tell a lot from a You Tube video, but these sound very clear and dynamic:

B&W 705 New Update - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRgK7-n-85Y)

Always wanted to hear the 705, could be in person I wouldn't like them as much but then again who knows?

[RGA]

YBA Arcaam

Man I could almost hear the driver separation problems in the youtube clip - I swear those speakers bug the hell out of me with their "pingy" tweeters. Argh.

I agree Dynaudio has lots of bass - it overwhelms the midrange and the result is a boom and sizzle quality )though I don't find the treble too bad). I haven't heard a Dynaudio yet that I would buy. I generally preferred their lower end stuff as being competitive.

In a small room smaller speakers with less bass might be able to get by. Bass is less of a problem if everything else is spot on. But with B&W bass isn't the number one problem - it's the driver integration of their standmounts that does them in and their choice of driver materials and crossover points - you can read about them on Audioasylum (poster Layman) as to what the problems are. If those were fixed up I could live with the bass - I am not really a bass hound. I care about the midrange first and foremost.

[RGA]

Ajani and frenchmon

if you have heard the Paradigm Studio 100V2 then you have pretty much heard the S8. It's a 100V2 in nicer cabinetry - with only slight sonic differences. The big Paradigm dealer in my town in Canada sent the Sig line back because it wasn't better enough over the 100s and nobody bought them at 4 times the list price.

I am not exactly sure what the fuss is over the looks of these speakers - they look like every other multi-way skinny box from a dozen other makers - not special in the least in the looks department. JMO.

Rotel - depends on the Rotel - they're hardly bright in the Bryston or Anthem (which Paradigm owns) sense of the word. Rotel often tends to be a little less bright than your average SS amp maker - at least these days (they did go through some design changes the last 3-4 years (for the better).

[Ajani]

Ajani and frenchmon

if you have heard the Paradigm Studio 100V2 then you have pretty much heard the S8. It's a 100V2 in nicer cabinetry - with only slight sonic differences. The big Paradigm dealer in my town in Canada sent the Sig line back because it wasn't better enough over the 100s and nobody bought them at 4 times the list price.

I wouldn't be too surprised. The S6 really didn't sound special to me.


I am not exactly sure what the fuss is over the looks of these speakers - they look like every other multi-way skinny box from a dozen other makers - not special in the least in the looks department. JMO.

Fair enough. I like the look, but truth is that it isn't really unique. Though I think that's the aim - to look more like what people expect. The old line was regarded by many as being too rectangular and boring. The new one is more like what people will expect


Rotel - depends on the Rotel - they're hardly bright in the Bryston or Anthem (which Paradigm owns) sense of the word. Rotel often tends to be a little less bright than your average SS amp maker - at least these days (they did go through some design changes the last 3-4 years (for the better).

I've never heard Bryston, but I always got the impression they had a more boring sound like NAD.

I don't regard Rotel as bright, just exciting. Changing from NAD to Rotel gave my previous setup the kick it needed to be fun to listen to.


P.S. I know you detest the sound of the Revels you've heard, but you might want to check out the M106. It's a Simply 2 way and the initial feedback from the reviewers has been very positive. Seems to have good dynamics.


When I heard the $1700-per-pair M106 bookshelf, I was taken aback by the slam and dynamics that these little speakers were capable of. They pumped out the bass of Seal’s “Killer” with gut-wrenching authority and they played extremely loud without breakup or other obvious distortions. The whistling and vocals on Livingston Taylor’s cover of “Isn’t She Lovely” were about as pure and uncolored as I have heard from any speaker at anywhere near this price.

Roger's Revel-ation (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&catid=82&Itemid=246)

&

I heard the new Revel Performa3 M106 standmount speaker shown at CES that costs a mere $1700 per pair sound simply amazing -- a true budget reference. Therefore, for many, many times the Revel's cost, all of these Superspeakers should blow these cheap Revels away. Do they?
Superspeakers 2012: Surprising Results (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=210&catid=79&Itemid=246)

[RGA]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/be-10)

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.

Mike is usually bang on with his assessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog (http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/652)

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.

[hyfynut]

I read that Revel was re-voicing the Performa series to mimmick more of a Dynaudio sound :)

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

[Ajani]

That would be terrible !! The Revels are one of the most honest speakers out there , with the Dynaudio's being very good but much less honest and far from as flat off axess as the Performa.

LOL... I'm pretty sure Mr Peabody was just joking (he owned Dynaudio before upgrading to Revel Performa)...

[frenchmon]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

I have to totally disagree with you about the Salon2. The Pure Beryllium Dome tweeter was very smooth and clear and did not stick out. I just listened to that speaker for 3 hours straight a few weeks ago. It was being driven by a new Levinson amp and preamp and was just about perfect. I did think the presentation was a little more aggressive than the Studio which I also listen to for about 3 hours as well. It too has that same smooth tweeter and great presentation, only its not as aggressive and the Salons..

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/be-10)

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.


Mike is usually bang on with his asseessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

I've heard the 3.5's as well. It a very good speaker.... Don't even see how you think that is a better speaker than the Salons.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog (http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/652)

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.[/QUOTE]

[Ajani]

I have to totally disagree with you about the Salon2. The Pure Beryllium Dome tweeter was very smooth and clear and did not stick out. I just listened to that speaker for 3 hours straight a few weeks ago. It was being driven by a new Levinson amp and preamp and was just about perfect. I did think the presentation was a little more aggressive than the Studio which I also listen to for about 3 hours as well. It too has that same smooth tweeter and great presentation, only its not as aggressive and the Salons..



I've heard the 3.5's as well. It a very good speaker.... Don't even see how you think that is a better speaker than the Salons.


This is just another case of personal preference. RGA clearly prefers a different approach to sound.

[Feanor]

This is just another case of personal preference. RGA clearly prefers a different approach to sound.
That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

[Ajani]

That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

Yep. I really hope to get hear an all Audio Note System one day - perhaps I'll fall crazy in love with the sound. But AN is a totally different approach to design and sound than Revel.

Also, I'm not surprised that RGA doesn't like the Revel sound. Let's keep in mind that the reason for Audio Note's existence was that Peter Snell died and his replacement at Snell (Kevin Voecks - now Revel) took Snell speakers in a completely different direction. The desire of Peter Q (Audio Note) was to continue (what he believes to be) the spirit of Peter Snell's vision. So we're talking about two completely different design philosophies (and possibly even some rivalry). If Peter Q had been impressed by Kevin Voecks work then I doubt Audio Note would exist.

So as you rightfully said; we're comparing eccentric old school designs to modern SOTA designs. Which will sound better is up to the person doing the auditioning.

I really would love to do a shootout between a Revel/Mark Levinson System and all Audio Note system.

[frenchmon]

That's true about RGA. I'd love to hear the Audio Notes someday just to know what he's fussing about.

One thing's for sure, the AN speakers are an eccentric designs that defy conventional design logic. They might work but it's not because they follow current SOTA practice. By contrast, the Revels are straight out of the Floyd Toole text book.

Speaking of Audio Note....I've often wondered if their is a connection to Blue Note/Gold Note. Their speakers look a lot alike. XS-96 (http://www.goldenote.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=71:xs-96&catid=31:loudspeakers&Itemid=40)

http://www.goldenote.com/images/stories/prodotti/XS_Speakers_web/XS96_Black_cocco_.jpg

[frenchmon]

Oh...before I forget...Peabodys got some more changes to his system....its going to floor you guys. But I will let him make the announcement.

[Ajani]

Oh...before I forget...Peabodys got some more changes to his system....its going to floor you guys. But I will let him make the announcement.

I can't wait! How about a PM or at least a hint!!!

[Ajani]

Speaking of Audio Note....I've often wondered if their is a connection to Blue Note/Gold Note. Their speakers look a lot alike.

To be honest, I think that speaker looks more like Harbeth than Audio Note. Though all of them have the similarity of being wider than deep and requiring a low stand - which is a very old school design.

[Ajani]

http://api.ning.com/files/KQ9Np9I19SaPW2UTWaudXCd-f3BKuGmsBl-IZXhQtehJGHhsMKdGZgUgC-p7oAOh3IyFWi96cdedaByExJrftIOuYzLQ2we0/IMG_3028.JPG

CES 2012 Show Report - Stephen Hornbrook - SECRETS CAVE (http://cave.hometheaterhifi.com/profiles/blogs/ces-2012-show-report-stephen-hornbrook)

[Ajani]

Two more images I can't get to load:

http://api.ning.com/files/UNPQW6VKiXC4EBzNU*MiA42taHI99AFiOZgyCD7ojMH7zcuvlA SddgztSvNIIXlN0256OLkFfuU75DpKQo8-tJ7cpxVd5IU3/IMG_3031.JPG

http://api.ning.com/files/mlgpQ0Qpt1gUJi3ewFLE6xvWQsdz4nJdIggFcfneZSbAahaNJc i7h43*-Helrhh-xWehbMREDG-*dd77VoQJGTA82etKa-Oh/IMG_3033.JPG

CES 2012 Show Report - Stephen Hornbrook - SECRETS CAVE (http://cave.hometheaterhifi.com/profiles/blogs/ces-2012-show-report-stephen-hornbrook)

[RGA]

Yep. I really hope to get hear an all Audio Note System one day - perhaps I'll fall crazy in love with the sound. But AN is a totally different approach to design and sound than Revel.

Also, I'm not surprised that RGA doesn't like the Revel sound. Let's keep in mind that the reason for Audio Note's existence was that Peter Snell died and his replacement at Snell (Kevin Voecks - now Revel) took Snell speakers in a completely different direction. The desire of Peter Q (Audio Note) was to continue (what he believes to be) the spirit of Peter Snell's vision. So we're talking about two completely different design philosophies (and possibly even some rivalry). If Peter Q had been impressed by Kevin Voecks work then I doubt Audio Note would exist.

So as you rightfully said; we're comparing eccentric old school designs to modern SOTA designs. Which will sound better is up to the person doing the auditioning.

I really would love to do a shootout between a Revel/Mark Levinson System and all Audio Note system.

It's no secret that Peter didn't like what Voecks did to Snell's speakers - Peter was a Big dealer at the time and was so displeased he sent them all back to Snell (under voecks) and bought all of Snell's cabinets drivers and parts for the previous model).

I've heard a few speakers from Voecks and don't recall liking any of them. Snell went under under his watch and so did another company if memory serves. Peter Snell put Snell on the map - without him - it was mediocre drivel. They got press for some reason - The Snell B-Minor got a class B rating and the Snell A got class A - I think after I auditioned them and Commerical electronics demoed them and we hated them - that was about the time I stopped buying Stereophile. They had no clue I felt - but Dudley wasn't on board and I didn't know that class ratings were the decision of one guy - a guy that obviously liked the speakers that the dealer hated that I hated and the it seems everyone hated since they went belly up!

To me it's all style and using cool drivers and big box syndrome - and it just sounds so bad. Text book design maybe but it's pretty bad when I'd rather read the text book than listen to music on them.

To me the telling factor is always the hard sell on the technology - I always look sideways at something that is selling me with words - lots of words to describe the "tweeter" or the woofer cone material. Or selling me on spec sheets and measurements - if it had quality sound then who the hell cares what the tweeter is or the woofer.

And that's why a boring old rectangle box that was designed by L.L. Beranek (who every textbook on loudspeakers cites heavily) with two relatively basic drivers (air cooled no less), illustrates that pair matching and driver matching trumps diamonds and the like. (a reason they're better suited to dentist drills than loudspeaker tweeters).

I love the hobby but to me it is pretty telling when a boring old two way box with nothing overtly fantastical drivers running off old obsolete SE tube amplifiers and CD players closer in design to the ones that originally hit the market (though they sound nothing alike than goodness), can so easily best systems that advertise the hell out of their space age gimmickry that never sounds as good. It's actually absurd IMO.

Take the massive expensive JM Labs Focal Utopia - is it Focal or JM Labs - whatever they can't seem to decide on what the hell their name is. This is a statement uber speaker - and I am impressed - I was impressed at CES and the dealer that sells it - it's impressive.

The tweeter is amazing - it is open detailed not bright - it is in a word an amazing sounding tweeter. It also has amazing bass - it will blow you into next week - it is fast, clean and mostly free of itself. In every hi-fi way it's a hi-fi speaker - and to a lesser degree so is Revel, So is Paradigm so is B&W among others. And yet whatever magic there is in music has been gutted and minced away.

And it's not noticeable UNTIL you hear something better. There was a time not that long ago when I was ready to buy Bryston/B&W and or PMC. And I would have been in the Revel/JM Labs camp too. There is nothing wrong with the sound until you hear something so much better that you notice what it is about it that isn't doing it right.

And that is what AN does in my view. It is a major step up. So are others but they're even harder to bloody audition - Find a Trenner and Freidl dealer some place - lot's of luck.

The SS and on paper freak accurate speakers to a fault guy says it all General Asylum: REVIEW: Audio Note Level 3 system Other by KevinF (http://www.audioasylum.com/reviews/Other/Audio-Note/Level-3-system/general/345133.html)

[frenchmon]

To be honest, I think that speaker looks more like Harbeth than Audio Note. Though all of them have the similarity of being wider than deep and requiring a low stand - which is a very old school design.

Yeah...I wonder if Epos had that same idea in mind when the made the Epic and now the Elan. I must admit...that new Elan stand mount looks very cool on those strands.

[Ajani]

http://www.stereophile.com/images/011212RevelM106-600.jpg

The New Revel Performa 3s | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/new-revel-performa-3s)

[frenchmon]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

[Ajani]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

It might just be a reflection.

[RGA]

Looks like some body fingered the woofer.

I can't pass that up.



That somebody needs a woman.

[Ajani]

I can't pass that up.



That somebody needs a woman.

:hand:

LOL

[Ajani]

M106 with grill on:

http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/revel-performa3-pre/M106.jpg/image

More pics of each model in the line and a nice write up:
Revel Performa3 Loudspeakers Preview — Reviews and News from Audioholics (http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/floorstanding/revel-performa3-pre)

[Ajani]

http://www.stereophile.com/images/011312Revel_Performa-600.jpg

Revel's Performa3 Speakers | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/revels-performa3-speakers)

[Ajani]

Looks like The Absolute Sound team were really impressed with the M106:


Best Sound (for the lowest price)
The all-new Revel M106, a two-way compact ($1700/pr. and driven by Levinson electronics) will be a game-changer for the aficionado short on space. Full-bodied, smooth, and dynamically responsive. In short, a small Revel-ation.
CES 2012 Report - Neil Gader on Solid-State Electronics Above $12,000 | AVguide (http://www.avguide.com/blog/ces-2012-report-neil-gader-solid-state-electronics-above-12000?page=2)


Best Sound (for the lowest price)
Revel’s new $1700 per pair stand-mounted M106 sounded like it should cost $5k. And the M106 is just one product in an eight-speaker line. Expect greatness at affordable prices when these loudspeakers are released in April.
CES 2012 Report - Robert Harley on Analog | AVguide (http://www.avguide.com/blog/ces-2012-report-robert-harley-analog?page=2)

Soundstage also loved them:


There were several very expensive loudspeakers garnering a lot of buzz at this year's show. Based on what I saw and heard in the Harman room, the Revel Performa3 line is just as deserving of this attention. In fact, these were my favorite speakers at CES 2012.
Roger's Revel-ation (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=212&catid=82&Itemid=246)


I heard the new Revel Performa3 M106 standmount speaker shown at CES that costs a mere $1700 per pair sound simply amazing -- a true budget reference.
Superspeakers 2012: Surprising Results (http://www.soundstageglobal.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=210&catid=79&Itemid=246)

I can't wait to read some reviews!

[astrallite]

detest is probably not the right word - overpriced for the sound you get - but that was the Salon 2 at something like $15k. Though it at least did have bass depth where something like the similarly priced Wilson Sophia lacks. Both don't integrate as well as I like and the tweeter sticks out.

Personally if this is the general design look people are after the Usher Be 10 sounded a LOT better than the Revel Salon 2 IME. Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-10 Diamond DMD (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/be-10)

I would also consider Acoustic Zen over most in the floorstander realm.

Mike is usually bang on with his assessment of most speakers in the $15k range - most IMO are not all that great IME - I question the price for sound quality ratio far too often when really they should clearly represent a major step over speakers like mine or something like a Gallo 3.5. And even if I had the money - I'd look at a 3.5 longer and harder.

Acoustic Zen actually sounds like it's worth the money or the Ingenium from Teresonic if you can live with low bass. Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Acoustic Zen Crescendo and Tri at CES 2010 - High-end Audio Blog (http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/652)

I found the comment selection interesting the way mike ranks ARC and others - I have felt that way about ARC for many years - and I am surprised to see someone actually say it.

That's pretty interesting that you consider the BE10s better than the Salon 2s, considering that DMD tweeter isn't really anything special. It was reviewed here:

<small><big>
http://www.avhub.com.au/images/stories/australian-hifi/reviews/2013/2013-07/usher_audio_dancer_minix_diamond_loudspeakers_lore s.pdf

Just like Usher's "beryllium" tweeter, which ended up being 99.9% titanium, their "DMD" tweeter has a breakmode at 24KHz and is likely some kind of metal/ceramic combination than real diamond, as a real diamond tweeter will have a breakup mode closer to 40KHz. These tweeters only cost $199/pair to purchase in Taiwan, with measured performance consistent with a tweeter in its price range compared to other OEM products, certainly not comparable with a real beryllium or diamond tweeter.

<small><big>It should be worth noting that Usher's flagship speakers cost significantly less in Asia, close to 1/3 the cost they charge in Europe and the U.S. If they sold their products at their real domestic pricing, or even charged only a 50% premium instead of a 220%+ premium compared to Asia, they could be giant killers, but in the U.S. and European market for the price they offer below-average driver quality, no waveguides, but certainly beautiful cabinets. </big></small>

Also I've compared the bookshelf in this price range (the BE-718) and it's comparable to the Performa series in performance, although I thought the M22 and M20 both had clearly superior woofers than the 8945A used in the Usher BE718, which has very fast rising THD below 80Hz, it's certainly not a product comparable to the Ultima range in measured performance, either in cabinet bracing, driver breakup modes, or driver directivity due to no waveguide.

I think what this shows is measured performance and individual preferences may certainly vary.
</big></small>