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JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 09:48 AM
My next step up will be speakers. I have decided that I would stick with stand mount speakers. I like the OML1's over the RS6's due to less interference from the cabinets. I believe any speaker under $4-5,000 should be a standmount. I enjoy on some music the extra bass of the floorstander but the loss of detail is not worth the trade-offs.

I am not looking for speakers that are very highly efficient or work in a corner. Nothing wrong with either but my amp puts out plenty of power and I have things already in the corners. I am also not interested in panel loudspeakers again due to room size.

I have a local dealer who carries both the Reference 3A and Joseph Audio lines. They both have bookshelf speakers a little under my budget. I recently heard the de Cappo's and really liked them. I have not heard the Joseph Audio speaker but years ago I was impressed by an Infinite Slope bookshelf that had incredible imaging. Joseph Audio uses a refined version of the infinite slope crossover.

Imaging and soundstage layering is important. I do not like bright speakers. I like a speaker that can groove and sound funky when needed like the OML1's where the RS6's are more about the leading edge of notes and less about sustain and decay. I think that is why to my ears I would either get tired of the RS6's or miss the OML1's. Lately I have felt like the Mitt of the audio world.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

Ajani
12-03-2011, 10:35 AM
I agree with your budget choices: under $4K I'd probably opt for a really good standmount (or maybe DIY)....

My choice for $2.5K (including stands) is the Revel Performa M22 - at 85db they'd really appreciate all your Krell has to offer....

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 11:02 AM
I agree with your budget choices: under $4K I'd probably opt for a really good standmount (or maybe DIY)....

My choice for $2.5K (including stands) is the Revel Performa M22 - at 85db they'd really appreciate all your Krell has to offer....


Nice suggestion Ajani and I will look to see where I can hear a pair. I have read much good about their floorstanders. Thanks

Jack in Wilmington
12-03-2011, 11:02 AM
I won't try and talk you into floorstanders, because I might just be wasting my time. There is nothing wrong with standmounts as I can attest to. I will suggest the Dynaudio Focus 140 as the 160's have been released and the 140's will undoubtedly be reduced. Also the Usher BE-718 would be an excellent choice.

Poultrygeist
12-03-2011, 12:19 PM
Omega Speaker Systems - Products > Super 8 Alnico Series (http://omegaloudspeakers.com/products/super8series)

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 01:01 PM
I won't try and talk you into floorstanders, because I might just be wasting my time. There is nothing wrong with standmounts as I can attest to. I will suggest the Dynaudio Focus 140 as the 160's have been released and the 140's will undoubtedly be reduced. Also the Usher BE-718 would be an excellent choice.


I have thought about Dynaudio's and have always been impressed with the quality of their drivers. Usher is another good suggestion. I need to see if their are any dealers near to me.

Jack in Wilmington
12-03-2011, 01:32 PM
I have thought about Dynaudio's and have always been impressed with the quality of their drivers. Usher is another good suggestion. I need to see if their are any dealers near to me.

I know my Usher dealer will ship to you if you have no dealer in your area. They've been Class A recommended by Stereophile since they were first introduced on the market.

frenchmon
12-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Hi JM....the new Galo speaker will be released oon...in about a month per my dealer. I cant wait to take a listen. Don't know if you have a dealer near you but they are in your budget.

http://www.roundsound.com/images/product-single/cl-21.jpg http://www.roundsound.com/images/product-single/cl-22.jpg

Anthony Gallo Acoustics :: Satellite Speakers | Audio Loudspeaker | Speakers (http://www.roundsound.com/classico-cl-2.php)

Geoffcin
12-03-2011, 04:07 PM
I would see if I could get a pair of lightly used Totem Mani-2 sigs. My favorite standmount speaker! http://gadgets.softpedia.com/images/gadgets/gallery/large/The-Totem-Mani-2-Signature-Loudspeakers-1.png

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 04:19 PM
I know my Usher dealer will ship to you if you have no dealer in your area. They've been Class A recommended by Stereophile since they were first introduced on the market.



I appreciate the help. One thing I want to do is to find a speaker that I go a little crazy for. Years ago when I had my Smaller Advents I would go to the store and listen as I saved up for a system. Same thing when I bought my ADS speakers and later when I bought the NHT SuperOnes. I want to find a speaker I am excited about and then part with the cash.

I auditioned the Monitor Audio's from a local shop after a few auditions. I do not think I was as excited by them at the time as I should have been. I do think I was swayed by the review and Class B rating in Stereophile. Now I want to listen to 4 or 5 speakers on multiple visits and decide which one I cannot live wihtout. Then when I narrow it down to one or two I will take the OML1's with me.

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 04:23 PM
I would see if I could get a pair of lightly used Totem Mani-2 sigs. My favorite standmount speaker! http://gadgets.softpedia.com/images/gadgets/gallery/large/The-Totem-Mani-2-Signature-Loudspeakers-1.png


We do have a dealer for Totem. I will try to give them a listen.

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 04:27 PM
Hi JM....the new Galo speaker will be released oon...in about a month per my dealer. I cant wait to take a listen. Don't know if you have a dealer near you but they are in your budget.

http://www.roundsound.com/images/product-single/cl-21.jpg http://www.roundsound.com/images/product-single/cl-22.jpg

Anthony Gallo Acoustics :: Satellite Speakers | Audio Loudspeaker | Speakers (http://www.roundsound.com/classico-cl-2.php)



Wow thanks so much I followed the link and found a dealer just about 30 miles away and a brand new audio shop I did not know existed.

RGA
12-03-2011, 07:13 PM
I will try to talk you out of standmounts.

Think bout the reason most people buy standmounts? Price and size. But size is a non issue since you have to buy a stand - they they still take up the SAME footprint in your room. If you have to have a free standing loudspeaker then you have gutted most of the living space around the speakers anyway.

And you usually give up sensitivity, bass, dynamics, and volume with most standmount speakers. You say sensitivity is not an issue but even if you have a billion watt amplifier maybe one day you hear a really good system that changes your mind as it does for many and it would be nice not to have to dump the speakers. A HE speaker can be run with 1000 watt amps or 5 watt amps. You get more choice as a result.

Giving up all that for what? Take B&W - I would sooner buy the B&W 604 floorstander than an N805. Yes the 805 has a better tweeter but it's still not great - and the 604 has a much fuller range sound which hides it's tweeter a little better. It's far more open and engaging with weight and drive. The 805 is a grand more and light weight anaemic. Same footprint. Some designers are much better with their standmounts over their floorstanders of course so this doesn't apply to all but I would be looking hard at the floorstanders (don't need to buy a stand) and you may not immediately feel you want a subwoofer (which takes up yet more space).

There are very few standmounts that satisfy me when the price is $2000. I can accept no bass impact dynamics at $700 but at $2500 it better sound better than a B&W, Revel, Dynaudio, Paradigm.

I would look at a used set of Gallo 3.5 speakers - the footprint is very small they don't have high power demands though they can take big power.

Enochrome
12-03-2011, 07:26 PM
How low do you want to go?

Coming from floorstanders are you compromising in the 50hz to 70hz range?

If so what about the Harbeth 7ES-3 or P3ES-5? I've read that they just disappear and give
you the most music out of a speaker. No analyzing, just enjoyment.

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 07:57 PM
How low do you want to go?

Coming from floorstanders are you compromising in the 50hz to 70hz range?

If so what about the Harbeth 7ES-3 or P3ES-5? I've read that they just disappear and give
you the most music out of a speaker. No analyzing, just enjoyment.



The Harbeth's 7ES-3 are about $1,000 over budget. I would like to hear them one day.

JohnMichael
12-03-2011, 08:03 PM
I will try to talk you out of standmounts.

Think bout the reason most people buy standmounts? Price and size. But size is a non issue since you have to buy a stand - they they still take up the SAME footprint in your room. If you have to have a free standing loudspeaker then you have gutted most of the living space around the speakers anyway.

And you usually give up sensitivity, bass, dynamics, and volume with most standmount speakers. You say sensitivity is not an issue but even if you have a billion watt amplifier maybe one day you hear a really good system that changes your mind as it does for many and it would be nice not to have to dump the speakers. A HE speaker can be run with 1000 watt amps or 5 watt amps. You get more choice as a result.



Giving up all that for what? Take B&W - I would sooner buy the B&W 604 floorstander than an N805. Yes the 805 has a better tweeter but it's still not great - and the 604 has a much fuller range sound which hides it's tweeter a little better. It's far more open and engaging with weight and drive. The 805 is a grand more and light weight anaemic. Same footprint. Some designers are much better with their standmounts over their floorstanders of course so this doesn't apply to all but I would be looking hard at the floorstanders (don't need to buy a stand) and you may not immediately feel you want a subwoofer (which takes up yet more space).

There are very few standmounts that satisfy me when the price is $2000. I can accept no bass impact dynamics at $700 but at $2500 it better sound better than a B&W, Revel, Dynaudio, Paradigm.

I would look at a used set of Gallo 3.5 speakers - the footprint is very small they don't have high power demands though they can take big power.



The reason I would want standmounts is smaller cabinets and less resonance. The OML1's are both horizontally and vertically braced and have minimal cabinet vibrations compared to the RS6's. I like a rigid cabinet and I think it is easier to find in a small speaker in my budget than one with larger cabinets.

Ajani
12-03-2011, 09:11 PM
I will try to talk you out of standmounts.

Huh? Aren't all the speakers by your favourite brand (with the exception of the AZ one and two) stand mounts? Even the AN-E has a stand to get it to a proper height (if I'm not mistaken)...

RGA
12-04-2011, 01:48 AM
The AN J and E are standmounts but compete with full range floorstanders - no other standmount that I have heard does that for anything remotely an affordable price. All standmounts I have heard sound like puny ass little speakers and for small money that is fine but at ~$3k it's too much money IMO to live without a huge spectrum of sound.

I prefer meat on the bones to my sound even if it comes with a little bit of grit.

The Reference 3a MM de Capo and and Audio Note AN K/SPE is about the bare minimum in bass and dynamics that I would be willing to accept and reason both are in my favorites in the price class. The K/Spe is a sealed box infinite baffle design and is not strictly speaking a corner loaded design. Though because it's sealed it works well in corners. The Decapo has more frequency response issues but a darker sound makes them more inviting with poorly recorded music. The K/Spe is not nice to lesser equipment so I only recommend them in certain situations.

When Hi-Fi Choice did their blind level matched sessions with the AN J the bass simply destroyed all the other speakers in the test so they had to pull it out and put them into their full range floorstander sessions - the AN J still won amongst the many listeners and they all commented that the bass still bettered the floorstanders. So while technically they are standmount speakers because they require a stand to get the tweeter at the correct height they ought to be considered floorstanders with regards to performance. This can't be said for the likes of the B&W N805s and all speakers that size and general shape - none of them ever even remotely perform like floorstanders.

There are some big standmounts from Harbeth like the M40 that have about the same general bass depth of the AN J. But it costs three times more money and is physically a lot larger - nice sounding IMO though.

RGA
12-04-2011, 02:00 AM
The reason I would want standmounts is smaller cabinets and less resonance. The OML1's are both horizontally and vertically braced and have minimal cabinet vibrations compared to the RS6's. I like a rigid cabinet and I think it is easier to find in a small speaker in my budget than one with larger cabinets.

Well that is true of some makers but the Gallo 3.5 has no such cabinet issues.

Ajani
12-04-2011, 11:57 AM
The AN J and E are standmounts but compete with full range floorstanders - no other standmount that I have heard does that for anything remotely an affordable price. All standmounts I have heard sound like puny ass little speakers and for small money that is fine but at ~$3k it's too much money IMO to live without a huge spectrum of sound.

I prefer meat on the bones to my sound even if it comes with a little bit of grit.

The Reference 3a MM de Capo and and Audio Note AN K/SPE is about the bare minimum in bass and dynamics that I would be willing to accept and reason both are in my favorites in the price class. The K/Spe is a sealed box infinite baffle design and is not strictly speaking a corner loaded design. Though because it's sealed it works well in corners. The Decapo has more frequency response issues but a darker sound makes them more inviting with poorly recorded music. The K/Spe is not nice to lesser equipment so I only recommend them in certain situations.

When Hi-Fi Choice did their blind level matched sessions with the AN J the bass simply destroyed all the other speakers in the test so they had to pull it out and put them into their full range floorstander sessions - the AN J still won amongst the many listeners and they all commented that the bass still bettered the floorstanders. So while technically they are standmount speakers because they require a stand to get the tweeter at the correct height they ought to be considered floorstanders with regards to performance. This can't be said for the likes of the B&W N805s and all speakers that size and general shape - none of them ever even remotely perform like floorstanders.

There are some big standmounts from Harbeth like the M40 that have about the same general bass depth of the AN J. But it costs three times more money and is physically a lot larger - nice sounding IMO though.

Fair enough.. We don't disagree in major way on this one... I do generally prefer floorstanders and closer to fullrange sound...

Also, I wouldn't buy the B&W 805S as I feel they are too bass light and bright... However, there are monitors that deliver bass comparable to a small floorstander (not fullrange and likely not as impressive as the AN J but still much better than the the usual monitors)... The Dynaudio Focus 140 mentioned earlier will deliver good bass (though I really don't like the tweeter - way too laid back for me)... & the Revel Performa M22 will provide good bass for most types of music as well... At $2.5K (including stands) I could live with the bass of the M22, above that I'd have to save up for $4K Towers...

So there's actually a gap in my buying range at the moment - up to $2.5K, I could live with Monitors (just not the really bass deficient, wimpy ones)... Above $4K I'd buy nothing but Towers... And currently between $2.5K and $4K, there's nothing I'd buy...

blackraven
12-04-2011, 01:37 PM
I'll take a pair of Salk Song Towers, PSB Synchrony ones's and two's or a pair of Theil CS 2.4's for under $4k any day of the week, and not to forget Magnepan 1.7's.

Ajani
12-04-2011, 02:00 PM
I'll take a pair of Salk Song Towers, PSB Synchrony ones's and two's or a pair of Theil CS 2.4's for under $4k any day of the week, and not to forget Magnepan 1.7's.

PSB Synchrony 1 is $5.5K - so well over the $4K budget... Synchrony 2 is $3.5K, so almost a $4K tower (never heard it though)... I've not heard the Thiels or the Salks... and Maggies aren't my cup of tea...

mjorgensen
12-04-2011, 03:07 PM
I vote Be-718 and I think they have more than enough base for most music, if not you can always add a sub for more dynamics.

http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm288/mjorgensen_photos/Home%20Theater/Ushers1129084010.jpg?t=1291758938

JohnMichael
12-04-2011, 03:24 PM
I should mention that my room is 12x15 ft. and the speakers will be in front of the 12 ft. wall. That is not a lot of space and I have to be somewhat considerate of my neighbors below. Oh and my budget is still$2,500.

Thanks for the responses so far I have been looking up the speakers and checking for local dealers.

Ajani
12-04-2011, 04:12 PM
I should mention that my room is 12x15 ft. and the speakers will be in front of the 12 ft. wall. That is not a lot of space and I have to be somewhat considerate of my neighbors below.

Sound like a Monitor is the best choice...


Oh and my budget is still$2,500..

LOL... my apologies for derailing the discussion...


Thanks for the responses so far I have been looking up the speakers and checking for local dealers.

Cool... I hope you get to carry the Krell along for the auditions... I will be very interested to see what speaker you settle on....

LeRoy
12-04-2011, 06:56 PM
My next step up will be speakers. I have decided that I would stick with stand mount speakers. I like the OML1's over the RS6's due to less interference from the cabinets. I believe any speaker under $4-5,000 should be a standmount. I enjoy on some music the extra bass of the floorstander but the loss of detail is not worth the trade-offs.

I am not looking for speakers that are very highly efficient or work in a corner. Nothing wrong with either but my amp puts out plenty of power and I have things already in the corners. I am also not interested in panel loudspeakers again due to room size.

I have a local dealer who carries both the Reference 3A and Joseph Audio lines. They both have bookshelf speakers a little under my budget. I recently heard the de Cappo's and really liked them. I have not heard the Joseph Audio speaker but years ago I was impressed by an Infinite Slope bookshelf that had incredible imaging. Joseph Audio uses a refined version of the infinite slope crossover.

Imaging and soundstage layering is important. I do not like bright speakers. I like a speaker that can groove and sound funky when needed like the OML1's where the RS6's are more about the leading edge of notes and less about sustain and decay. I think that is why to my ears I would either get tired of the RS6's or miss the OML1's. Lately I have felt like the Mitt of the audio world.

Any suggestions will be appreciated.

I have SA Aura 1's in the Ebony finish. Frenchmon has been auditioning them for the last month or so. Maybe he will provide his impressions of the speaker.

Here is the link to SA.

SA aura 1 (http://www.system-audio.com/_en-GB/products/compact%20speakers/SA_aura_1/SA_aura_1)

JohnMichael
12-05-2011, 09:23 AM
Has anyone heard the Nola Boxer? From reviews I have read I think I should hear that speaker.

JohnMichael
12-05-2011, 09:40 AM
I will try to talk you out of standmounts.

Think bout the reason most people buy standmounts? Price and size. But size is a non issue since you have to buy a stand - they they still take up the SAME footprint in your room. If you have to have a free standing loudspeaker then you have gutted most of the living space around the speakers anyway.

r.


A speaker stand and a tower speaker may have the same footprint but a tower speaker takes up more visual space. Interior design is important to me and I live in a smaller space. I find a standmount on dual front and back column speaker stand to take up less of the room visually. The OML1's on the Sanus SF22 stand is less obtrusive than the RS6 floor standers. I have to keep the audiophile and interior designer in me happy.

blackraven
12-05-2011, 10:47 AM
PSB Synchrony 1 is $5.5K - so well over the $4K budget... Synchrony 2 is $3.5K, so almost a $4K tower (never heard it though)... I've not heard the Thiels or the Salks... and Maggies aren't my cup of tea...


You can occasionally find the Synchrony 1's for $3500. A good friend of mine bought a pair from audiophile liquidator for $3500 2 yrs ago.

PSB (http://www.elegantaudiovideo.com/category/loudspeakers.in_room_speakers.psb/) -$3,599pr, down from $5,500

Psb Synchrony One Tower For Sale | AudiogoN (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1327078336&/Psb-Synchrony-One-Tower-lowest)


PSB B-Stock Sale (http://www.saturdayaudio.com/picturepages/psb_bstock.htm)

Jack in Wilmington
12-05-2011, 12:42 PM
Has anyone heard the Nola Boxer? From reviews I have read I think I should hear that speaker.

Hey John, I've heard the Nola Boxer at a local shop and it had a enchanting sound to say the least. Fit and finish were first rate also. One thing to consider is, that this is a HE speaker with a 90 db sensitivity. The shop I heard it at was running it off a 20 watt tube amp. But next to it was a speaker that I forgot to mention before. They had a pair of Dali Helicon 300's that were being fed by a Musical Fidelity amp. They sounded so good. It was that kind of sound that when you walk into the room, you start looking for a nice comfy chair, cause you know you're going to be there awhile. I think new they're like $4000, but I just saw a mint pair on Audiogon for $1475.

JohnMichael
12-05-2011, 01:32 PM
Hey John, I've heard the Nola Boxer at a local shop and it had a enchanting sound to say the least. Fit and finish were first rate also. One thing to consider is, that this is a HE speaker with a 90 db sensitivity. The shop I heard it at was running it off a 20 watt tube amp. But next to it was a speaker that I forgot to mention before. They had a pair of Dali Helicon 300's that were being fed by a Musical Fidelity amp. They sounded so good. It was that kind of sound that when you walk into the room, you start looking for a nice comfy chair, cause you know you're going to be there awhile. I think new they're like $4000, but I just saw a mint pair on Audiogon for $1475.


The Boxer sounds interesting. When I wrote about high efficiency speakers I was thinking of speakers designed primarily for HE. 90 db should not be a problem. The Dali sounds interesting. I think a local dealer may stock some of the Dali's. Now I just need some time to follow up on some good suggestions.

JohnMichael
12-06-2011, 09:09 AM
As I am shopping I need to listen to both Paradigm and PSB speakers. Odd that I have never heard either. I would also like to hear the Vienna Acoustics bookshelf speaker. Oh and Bose 901's are stand mounted and in my price range. ;-)

blackraven
12-06-2011, 10:39 PM
JM, here's the PSB Synchrony sound in a nut shell. Smooth and airy with deep but tight bass. Warmer sound with articulate but laid back treble. Plays well with SS and tubes. The new Image and Imagine line has similar sound due to the trickle down technology.

Feanor
12-07-2011, 05:03 PM
I should mention that my room is 12x15 ft. and the speakers will be in front of the 12 ft. wall. That is not a lot of space and I have to be somewhat considerate of my neighbors below. Oh and my budget is still$2,500.

Thanks for the responses so far I have been looking up the speakers and checking for local dealers.
Likely this kit from Parts Express, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-953)), based on Usher drivers, would compete will against speakers up to $2500. $700 for a pair. They look easy to assemble; there is no soldering.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/302-953_l.jpg

Add a pair of these Dayton speaker stands, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=240-754)), for $77 and you'd be all set.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/240-754_l.jpg

blackraven
12-07-2011, 05:08 PM
Those crossovers look like they would be easy to swap out the caps for some nice Mundorf Oil Caps if you decided that you don't care for the sound.

JohnMichael
12-07-2011, 06:34 PM
Likely this kit from Parts Express, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-953)), based on Usher drivers, would compete will against speakers up to $2500. $700 for a pair. They look easy to assemble; there is no soldering.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/302-953_l.jpg

Add a pair of these Dayton speaker stands, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=240-754)), for $77 and you'd be all set.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/240-754_l.jpg



Nice speaker suggestion but I do not want to buy a speaker I have not heard before. The OML1's use quality drivers in a quality enclosure. The front baffle is 1 inch thick and the rest 3/4 inch thick plus vertical and horizontal bracing. The cabinet does not contribute to the sound the way the cabinet of the RS6 does.

As far as stands I have two pair of Sanus stands and one pair of Pangea. They are 22, 24, and 26 inches tall. So I am set for stands.

I also have a pair of Ascend CBM 170's in the closet that I liked at first until I realized they were too forward for my tastes. If I find a speaker I like I plan on listening to them on multiple visits to the shop before I make the purchase.

Feanor
12-08-2011, 06:25 AM
Nice speaker suggestion but I do not want to buy a speaker I have not heard before. ...
I can't argue with wanting to hear the speakers first, although I will insist that listening in the store vs. at home cannot be a definitive test.

Of course it's ideal if you can borrow speakers home, or at least buy them with free return.

frenchmon
12-08-2011, 07:53 AM
Hey John, I've heard the Nola Boxer at a local shop and it had a enchanting sound to say the least. Fit and finish were first rate also. One thing to consider is, that this is a HE speaker with a 90 db sensitivity. The shop I heard it at was running it off a 20 watt tube amp. But next to it was a speaker that I forgot to mention before. They had a pair of Dali Helicon 300's that were being fed by a Musical Fidelity amp. They sounded so good. It was that kind of sound that when you walk into the room, you start looking for a nice comfy chair, cause you know you're going to be there awhile. I think new they're like $4000, but I just saw a mint pair on Audiogon for $1475.

I have a pair of Nola Mini's which are similar to the Boxers I assume...and have heard the Dali Helicons as well...no match whatsoever...I would snatch a pair of Helicons in a heart beat if I had the coin. That is an outstanding speaker that no one I know of even knows about....but very popular out on the east cost.

frenchmon
12-08-2011, 08:16 AM
As I am shopping I need to listen to both Paradigm and PSB speakers. Odd that I have never heard either. I would also like to hear the Vienna Acoustics bookshelf speaker. Oh and Bose 901's are stand mounted and in my price range. ;-)

I've heard Paradigms studio's and Sig series and they have a very good midrange that draws you in. The Signature series has that Be tweeter thats very good. Some say the studio series are bright....I find them neither bright or boring but lively speakers...very engaging. They are not forward, but if you want something that is laid back...then PSB may be more to your liking. If you can, you should go and take a listen to them. Its the type of speaker you have to listen too. I suspect the Sig series may be more to your liking, but they may be out of your price range I assume...I know about 5 years ago a pair of Paradigm Reference Signature S2 cost tops about $2200. Dont know what a pair would retail today. Oh...RGA....please no Paradigm bashing...we know your stance on Paradigm.

frenchmon
12-08-2011, 09:16 AM
Let me know if you go take a listen to the Paradigm....They are a beautiful speakerhttp://www.paradigm.com/components/com_mtree/img/listings/o/572.jpg

And I wonder if you have a Wharfedale dealer in your area? I am very interested in these puppies as well. Its the new Warfedale Jade 3. They are a 3 way stand monitor with great balance. They go for $1900 a pair. Very little reviews sense it's new but I think What Hi-Fi did a review on the Jade 7 floor speaker and said they where really good but need power to make it come alive....You will have no problem with the Krell.

http://www.hifi-trade.ru/products_pictures/big/Wharfedale_jade1_vintagecherry_big.jpg http://www.avsale.ru/pbi/Wharfedale-Jade-1-Piano-Black-new.jpg

Here's Focus Audio FC 6 II. Classic Series II, and FS 6 ll Signature Series II...both in your price range.

http://www.focusaudio.com/2011/Classic2/FC6_2.jpg http://www.focusaudio.com/2011/Signature2/FS6_2.jpg

And here is FP 60 SE http://www.focusaudio.com/2011/PrestigeSE/FP60.jpg

and FP 50 SE http://www.focusaudio.com/2011/PrestigeSE/FP50.jpg

If interested in the FP 50 or 60, you may have to check pricing at

Focus Audio - High End Audiophile Loudspeaker (http://www.focusaudio.com/index1.htm)

Hyfi
12-08-2011, 09:55 AM
Though the Dynaudio Focus was mentioned, the Excite X16 is getting rave reviews, and you could buy a few bottles of wine with what you have left over with your budget. I was blown away by the X32s driven by $400 NAD Receiver and $400 CDP.

A suggestion I gave someone over at AVS Forums, which several thought a great idea, is to advertise on Craigslist or similar for someone local that would allow you to hear speakers that you do not have a local dealer for. I would have no problem demoing my Danes. The Dynaudio tweeters are not quite as laid back with the right gear as someone commented earlier, they are just more true to life than many others that somehow effect the output to go with the signature sound of the MFG. The Dynaudio signature sound is Truth!

frenchmon
12-08-2011, 09:59 AM
These are the puppies I have on lone from LeRoy... same color and everything.

http://www.system-audio.com/_en-GB/Content/Data/Billeder/Produkter/SA_aura_1/SA_aura_1_ebony

http://www.system-audio.com/_en-GB/Content/Data/Billeder/Produkter/SA_aura_1/SAaura1Ebony_pic_9

The stand at the bottom is actually double ported...one on each side where you see the emblem SA on the front bottom. This port puts out unbelievable bass and it has a very good tweeter with a lush mid section. Female voices are great with that warmth you expect from a good speaker. They are romantic. It really is a 3-D sound for such a small speaker. And the cabinets are real wood. Its a heavy speaker as well. The only problem is you may not have a dealer in your area....I think they are new to the States. The Speaker is made in Denmark.

devuonoste
12-08-2011, 11:09 AM
Other speakers to consider would be the Fritz Speakers.

They are sold via audiogon I believe and they have home auditions also but I'm not sure about the details.

I have not heard them personally but based on reviews of them and the RMAF 2011show, I think they may be great speakers.

Ajani
12-08-2011, 11:21 AM
Though the Dynaudio Focus was mentioned, the Excite X16 is getting rave reviews, and you could buy a few bottles of wine with what you have left over with your budget. I was blown away by the X32s driven by $400 NAD Receiver and $400 CDP.

A suggestion I gave someone over at AVS Forums, which several thought a great idea, is to advertise on Craigslist or similar for someone local that would allow you to hear speakers that you do not have a local dealer for. I would have no problem demoing my Danes. The Dynaudio tweeters are not quite as laid back with the right gear as someone commented earlier, they are just more true to life than many others that somehow effect the output to go with the signature sound of the MFG. The Dynaudio signature sound is Truth!

I have no idea about how the Excite series sounds, but the Focus 220 and 140 (which I auditioned) have rolled off treble. My listening impressions were later verified when I saw the Frequency response graphs for the Focus line in reviews... I won't judge Dynaudio as a whole as I have not heard their other lines, but the Focus line is indeed laid back...

However, all that said, I think JM should audition the Focus line as that treble presentation may be exactly what he is looking for...

blackraven
12-08-2011, 11:40 AM
I second the Fritz if you can find a pair to audition. They are thought very highly of. Also consider the PSB Synchrony 1B's, a wonderful sounding speaker. The Wharfedale's are worth looking at if you can find a dealer, I have always liked the Diamond Series.

JohnMichael
12-10-2011, 04:56 PM
Likely this kit from Parts Express, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-953)), based on Usher drivers, would compete will against speakers up to $2500. $700 for a pair. They look easy to assemble; there is no soldering.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/302-953_l.jpg

Add a pair of these Dayton speaker stands, (here (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=240-754)), for $77 and you'd be all set.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/240-754_l.jpg



Feanor I looked in my Parts Express catalog and was surprised by who designed the speaker. The cabinets also seem like they would be well made. Dayton is not that far away and when I was a student in Dayton I walked passed the downtown store. The larger cabinet would provide a little more bass than the OML1's. Thanks and I may make a trip to hear them.

Feanor
12-11-2011, 05:41 AM
Feanor I looked in my Parts Express catalog and was surprised by who designed the speaker. The cabinets also seem like they would be well made. Dayton is not that far away and when I was a student in Dayton I walked passed the downtown store. The larger cabinet would provide a little more bass than the OML1's. Thanks and I may make a trip to hear them.
Yeah, according to PE they were designed by Joseph D'Appolito himself. PE advertizes -3 dB at 41 Hz which is good for a stand-mount.

I mentioned them in my own post wondering about stand-mounts under $1200, and if I decide to go that way I'll either go for the Dayton Audio UA701CCK or buy used.

http://d2oiekhouywd6z.cloudfront.net/images/item_standard/302-953_s.jpg

Pat D
12-12-2011, 09:16 AM
Paradigm Signature speakers are very neutral. The Signature S2 should work well in your size room.

The PSB Synchrony One B is another nice speaker, somewhat less sensitive and going along with that, somewhat deeper bass response.

Someone suggested the Totem Mani-2 Signature, which you might find used in your price category. It has quite deep bass response, which might be a bit much for your room. It is very smooth, and I only found one anomaly in the sound, evident on only one recording which you are unlikely to have, anyway. I didn't look up your amp but they are fairly insensitive and low impedance. A Bryston 3B would be about the minimum, better a 4B. But if your amp can drive fairly low impedances, it should be OK.

JohnMichael
12-12-2011, 12:59 PM
While visiting the Totem site I happened to see the Totem "Hawks". If I was going to have a floor standing speaker something simple in aesthetics like the Hawks might work. The RS6's sound better than they look.

BadAssJazz
12-12-2011, 01:11 PM
As I am shopping I need to listen to both Paradigm and PSB speakers. Odd that I have never heard either. I would also like to hear the Vienna Acoustics bookshelf speaker. Oh and Bose 901's are stand mounted and in my price range. ;-)

For my tastes, yes to the Paradigms, no to the Vienna Acoustic Haydens. Haven't heard the PSBs or Bose anything.

Has someone already mentioned Gamut speakers or Raidhos? Oh wait, what was the price range again?

Ajani
12-12-2011, 02:46 PM
While visiting the Totem site I happened to see the Totem "Hawks". If I was going to have a floor standing speaker something simple in aesthetics like the Hawks might work. The RS6's sound better than they look.

I find it interesting that you find the looks of the RS6 so unappealing... A large part of its appeal has been its looks... As it is generally regarded as a stylish speaker... But I guess aesthetic preferences are probably even more subjective than listening preferences...

JohnMichael
12-12-2011, 03:36 PM
For my tastes, yes to the Paradigms, no to the Vienna Acoustic Haydens. Haven't heard the PSBs or Bose anything.

Has someone already mentioned Gamut speakers or Raidhos? Oh wait, what was the price range again?



Sorry no Gamut money here.

JohnMichael
12-12-2011, 03:42 PM
I find it interesting that you find the looks of the RS6 so unappealing... A large part of its appeal has been its looks... As it is generally regarded as a stylish speaker... But I guess aesthetic preferences are probably even more subjective than listening preferences...




Now the RX6 is a better looking speaker IMO. I like that the Hawks look like rectangular columns with only the two drivers. No trim rings of different colors just an understated look. Please forgive me Paradigm owners but I think what has kept me away from the brand is how busy the cabinets look. There seems to be a lot of plastic added to the enclosures. I also like the PSB Imagine T's looks.

Ajani
12-12-2011, 04:35 PM
Now the RX6 is a better looking speaker IMO. I like that the Hawks look like rectangular columns with only the two drivers. No trim rings of different colors just an understated look. Please forgive me Paradigm owners but I think what has kept me away from the brand is how busy the cabinets look. There seems to be a lot of plastic added to the enclosures. I also like the PSB Imagine T's looks.

I get you... Based on the pics of your listening room, I get the impression of someone more interested in refined elegance than 'bling bling'... So I can see why all the silver trimmings on the RS series and the Paradigms would be a turn-off...

woofersus
12-12-2011, 05:23 PM
Being as I'm also in central Ohio, I could bring over a pair of ACA Trinity's for you to check out in your own room. (of course you could listen to them here also, but I don't mind packing them up) They are just under $2k still, although they are going to jump up above in January.

Adam reviewed them a couple of months ago: Angel City Audio Trinity bookshelf loudspeaker Review - Equipment Reviews - Dagogo (http://www.dagogo.com/View-Article.asp?hArticle=941)

Just let me know if you're ever interested.

JohnMichael
12-13-2011, 12:33 PM
I tried to call one audio shop since I have the day off and their number is no longer a working number. I checked online for another and their web page is gone. I did not try to look up their number since their site being down probably is not a good sign. If you live in a major city you have some shopping options but otherwise good luck. There are other stores but the speakers I wanted to hear today are now unavailable.

frenchmon
12-13-2011, 06:00 PM
You got a Canton dealer near you? Dont know if these are too much bling for you and no plastic... I love them and they have that new ceramic tweeter, trickled down from the Canton Reference series.

The 820's retail for $2000 a pair. The 830.2 is a bigger stand mount with the upgraded tweeter. I assume they are right around your budget.

Canton Vento 830.2

http://www.canton.de/assets/images/produkte/vento830.2-1.jpg

http://ev2.blocket.com/estore_images_c/80/22/80229261a6d6eb46bc176abaa58ef1f9c71599ed.jpg?8

JohnMichael
12-13-2011, 06:41 PM
I am finding it tough to listen to speakers I want to hear. Since both pairs of speakers are enjoyable and I would like to combine the best of both in one speaker I am slowing down my search. I may take an audio vacation in March to a city with a number of good audio shops. I can spend my days trolling the stores and if I hear something I like I can go back multiple times.

I now have both pairs of speakers in the living room. The young college women below me were playing something too loud so I brought out the RS6's to blast some Amy Winehouse. They have been quieter since then. The OML1's cannot quite drive home the point like the RS6's can do.

frenchmon
12-14-2011, 04:39 AM
I lived on the east coast down in Durham/ Raleigh/Cary NC. Its the biggest technology center in the country. The Research Triangle Park. Thus its a white collar city, which means a very large upper middle class community. Lots of money. They have a lot of high end audio shops. They are up and down the east cost.

Heres a link to the Park so you can see all the technology.

Home Page | The Research Triangle Park (http://www.rtp.org/)


Thats where the money and the audio shops are.

tsweers89
12-14-2011, 08:53 PM
to many choices

JohnMichael
12-19-2011, 04:27 PM
I have decided to live with the RS6's until I can do some serious shopping. When the OML1's are in use I find I miss the lower end. I pulled out a pair of single wire Ultralink cables which are stranded cables. I put the jumpers in place and connected the cables to the top speaker binding posts. The top pair supply the middle driver and tweeter and the lower driver is fed the signal by the jumpers.

I look forward to finding a pair of speakers that I can enjoy long term. I do not dislike either speaker just trying to find the best combination for sound until I meet the dream speaker. Well as much as you can dream at my budget.

RGA
12-19-2011, 06:37 PM
Sounds to me you want a standmount with all the inherent advantages but that has "full range" floorstander capabilities with all their advantages.

Been there - join the club. The list of those is very very small. And of that list the ones that are affordable is even smaller.

Feanor
12-20-2011, 05:07 AM
Sounds to me you want a standmount with all the inherent advantages but that has "full range" floorstander capabilities with all their advantages.
....
Monitors, (i.e. standmounted), plus a quality subwoofer will typically beat floorstanding, (maybe excepting very large rooms). Monitors are generally cleaner sounding and better imaging than typical floorstanders. A good sub will go deeper and play louder than than typical floorstanders.

Some care has to be take with sub placement and selecting crossover points but these aren't usually big problems.

JohnMichael
12-20-2011, 08:44 AM
The OML1's and a subwoofer might be a good idea. The only thing that would concern me is my apartment is on the second floor. My neighbors might not appreciate the bass. My room is 12ft wide by 15ft with 8ft ceilings so I do not know how much bass the room would support.

BadAssJazz
12-20-2011, 11:10 AM
The young college women below me were playing something too loud so I brought out the RS6's to blast some Amy Winehouse. They have been quieter since then.

Ha, that's good stuff. There's almost always one inconsiderate neighbor that has to be shown the error of their ways.

RGA
12-20-2011, 04:58 PM
Monitors, (i.e. standmounted), plus a quality subwoofer will typically beat floorstanding, (maybe excepting very large rooms). Monitors are generally cleaner sounding and better imaging than typical floorstanders. A good sub will go deeper and play louder than than typical floorstanders.

Some care has to be take with sub placement and selecting crossover points but these aren't usually big problems.


Unfortunately I have yet to hear a "well integrated" sub/sat system - by well integrated I mean for music where the sound is utterly seamless. H/T I have been okay with but music not at all - and that is likely why many makers make full range speakers. I remain hopeful to hear a great sub sat system - interestingly I have been more favorable to subs when they've been in systems with full range loudspeakers - perhaps because the crossover is set much lower and the sub is used for feeling ambiance. Perhaps I just need it crossed at say 40hz than 80hz - but that requires a speaker to be very solid at 40hz at level.

Feanor
12-20-2011, 05:54 PM
Unfortunately I have yet to hear a "well integrated" sub/sat system - by well integrated I mean for music where the sound is utterly seamless. H/T I have been okay with but music not at all - and that is likely why many makers make full range speakers. I remain hopeful to hear a great sub sat system - interestingly I have been more favorable to subs when they've been in systems with full range loudspeakers - perhaps because the crossover is set much lower and the sub is used for feeling ambiance. Perhaps I just need it crossed at say 40hz than 80hz - but that requires a speaker to be very solid at 40hz at level.
I have had two music systems that integrated subwoofer quite well. First my Magneplanar MMG + PSB Subsonic 6; in this case the both high and low pass were set at 80 Hz. Second is my MG 1.6QR + PSB Subsonic 5 where the Maggies run full range and the sub's low pass is at 50 Hz.

In the first instance perhaps placement of the sub was favourable, i.e. it was placed between the main speakers, (not is some odd corner), so there some phase problems were probably avoided. Arguably in the second instance all the really music is carried by the main stereo speakers since they are good down to 40-45 Hz where virtually all fundamentals occur, (pipe organ excepted)>

Ajani
12-20-2011, 08:12 PM
Unfortunately I have yet to hear a "well integrated" sub/sat system - by well integrated I mean for music where the sound is utterly seamless. H/T I have been okay with but music not at all - and that is likely why many makers make full range speakers. I remain hopeful to hear a great sub sat system - interestingly I have been more favorable to subs when they've been in systems with full range loudspeakers - perhaps because the crossover is set much lower and the sub is used for feeling ambiance. Perhaps I just need it crossed at say 40hz than 80hz - but that requires a speaker to be very solid at 40hz at level.

I have yet to hear one either, however I suspect a lot of this comes down to listening preferences... Some persons swear by monitor/sub combos...

I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo with a friend and he was in love with the sub, while I hated the sub with a passion and preferred the sound when the sub was off... In fact every time I heard a sub in a 2 channel combo I asked the dealer to switch it off...

blackraven
12-20-2011, 08:48 PM
I have yet to hear one either, however I suspect a lot of this comes down to listening preferences... Some persons swear by monitor/sub combos...

I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo with a friend and he was in love with the sub, while I hated the sub with a passion and preferred the sound when the sub was off... In fact every time I heard a sub in a 2 channel combo I asked the dealer to switch it off...

Most systems that I have heard with a sub have had the sub turned up too high. It should disappear and be seamless with the mains.

RGA
12-20-2011, 10:10 PM
I have yet to hear one either, however I suspect a lot of this comes down to listening preferences... Some persons swear by monitor/sub combos...

I remember auditioning a monitor/sub combo with a friend and he was in love with the sub, while I hated the sub with a passion and preferred the sound when the sub was off... In fact every time I heard a sub in a 2 channel combo I asked the dealer to switch it off...

I think some of the posters are correct - I suspect the reason they turn the sub "too high" is because stand mounts (and sorry most panels) tend to be completely anaemic in "bass dynamics" To compensate for either or both a lack of bass depth and drive they turn the sub up high to give the system some much needed drive.

But the problem with that of course is you always hear the subwoofer and it doesn't mesh right. Turning it down where it "should be" and has better integration - now you still don't have the dynamics - but you do get some add bass.

I had a class B Stereophile rated powered sub way back - you could have it set up to defeat LF going to your main speakers - the idea being to save the mains the work of producing bass - or you could run the sub passively and your amp would drive the mains and the sub. The latter sounded a lot better but it still wasn't great while the former had severe integration issues. Placing the sub directly between the speakers helped but it still wasn't very good. It's one of the few things in audio that I purchased and was glad to get rid of.

I tried Rel's flagship sub and was roundly unimpressed given the whopper of a price tag. M&K's set-up has probably been the best one I have heard - George Lucas' favorite HT rig. If their main speakers sounded better it might have been something.

One company has been working on an 845 tube powered subwoofer for a number of years but have yet to be happy with it - Perhaps it will yield a different (better) result - but so far no.

Feanor
12-21-2011, 05:15 AM
Most systems that I have heard with a sub have had the sub turned up too high. It should disappear and be seamless with the mains.
This is my observation too. Many typical system owners feel they ought to be able to "hear" their subwoofers. However you should never hear the sub as separate entity.

If you are playing, say, pipe organ music you will occassionally hear very deep bass that you wouldn't hear at all otherwise but this isn't typical listening.

Feanor
12-21-2011, 05:54 AM
I think some of the posters are correct - I suspect the reason they turn the sub "too high" is because stand mounts (and sorry most panels) tend to be completely anaemic in "bass dynamics" To compensate for either or both a lack of bass depth and drive they turn the sub up high to give the system some much needed drive.

But the problem with that of course is you always hear the subwoofer and it doesn't mesh right. Turning it down where it "should be" and has better integration - now you still don't have the dynamics - but you do get some add bass.
...
It's true enough that small planars, like the Magneplanar MMG's, don't have enough bass dynamics. However it doesn't follow that adding a sub can't add dynamics or mesh well.

Weren't you listening? I said obtained fine integration with my MMG's and sub. No doubt this largely resulted from an appropriate choise of crossover point and complementary high- and low-pass filters. Do you think you're the only person around here with ears? Get over yourself.

RGA
12-21-2011, 06:24 AM
Feanor

It may sound integrated to you - but if we we're going to actually trust each other's ears then that is a two way street and would apply to more than "sub integration." It is pretty clear to me we don't hear audio systems the same way and as such I don't just accept forum poster's who claim something when I have yet to hear it. If it were ears I trusted with a track record of hearing it the same way I would be on board with the claims.

Feanor
12-21-2011, 07:31 AM
Feanor

It may sound integrated to you - but if we we're going to actually trust each other's ears then that is a two way street and would apply to more than "sub integration." It is pretty clear to me we don't hear audio systems the same way and as such I don't just accept forum poster's who claim something when I have yet to hear it. If it were ears I trusted with a track record of hearing it the same way I would be on board with the claims.
Well, after all, who can argue with trust your own ears, eh?

I gotta admit I've never hear your beloved AN speakers, so I suppose I should just shut the 'F' up, (while you ramble on).

Ajani
12-21-2011, 09:40 AM
While I certainly agree that dealers generally turn up the subs too high, I don't think just turning down the volume solves the problem for all users... I've had the dealer turn the volume down and down and down, and in the end I still preferred that the sub be turned off... My friend on the other hand, loved the sound of the sub even on the initial volume setting the dealer used...

So I still think it's more a matter of listening preferences...

JohnMichael
12-21-2011, 10:33 AM
I owned a budget sub years ago. I found it tough to blend with the smaller speakers. I was always adjusting volume and crossover until I drove myself crazy. I am not sure if a quality sub would be easier to blend.

I have to say the RS6's satisfy my bass desires. In my current apartment any deeper bass might be a problem.

Ajani
12-21-2011, 10:54 AM
I owned a budget sub years ago. I found it tough to blend with the smaller speakers. I was always adjusting volume and crossover until I drove myself crazy. I am not sure if a quality sub would be easier to blend.

lol... I always imagined I'd have that exact same problem if I owned a sub... unless I have a good DSP program and a microphone, chances are I'd go nuts constantly fiddling with the settings...


I have to say the RS6's satisfy my bass desires. In my current apartment any deeper bass might be a problem.

I do find that a pair of compact towers with dual 6 - 6.5" woofers generally works well in a modest sized apartment. That's why I generally prefer towers (that and aesthetics)... The problem is finding a pair of towers in your budget that will be a sufficient upgrade over your RS6s...

frenchmon
12-21-2011, 11:26 AM
It is a matter of listening preferences. And It does take skill in fine tuning the sub to where its seamless in a set volume. It adds to the overall sound of the music...seems to take everything up a notch. I've done it and it works great if you do it right. I've had the sub place in the middle of two speakers. Its a lot easier to integrate it in that way. And I've had the sub in the comer where bass is more boomy. Its harder to integrated in but it can be done with a little patience to the point its seamless and it sounds as if the bass is coming from the two speakers rather than from a direction. Nothing wrong with a sub if its done right. The only problem with good sub integration is adjusting the volume, you have to adjust the sub as well.

Feanor
12-21-2011, 11:38 AM
lol... I always imagined I'd have that exact same problem if I owned a sub... unless I have a good DSP program and a microphone, chances are I'd go nuts constantly fiddling with the settings...

Ha! I've got those and they help. I though I had the sub tuned right but on measuring I discovered that it was still a set a little high. Easily fixed, though.

As for the DSP I've found that I prefer the bass flat to the limits of the speaker which is 26 Hz for -3 dB with the sub; for the treble however, I like it rolled off smoothly from 2 kHz or so rather than completely flat.

Feanor
12-21-2011, 12:36 PM
... To compensate for either or both a lack of bass depth and drive they turn the sub up high too give the system some much needed drive.

But the problem with that of course is you always hear the subwoofer and it doesn't mesh right. Turning it down where it "should be" and has better integration - now you still don't have the dynamics - but you do get some add bass.
{emphasis added} ....
The above are categorical statements -- they aren't qualified with an "in my experience" or "IMO". As a matter of fact, they are merely your opinion.

Is there some theory you can supply as too why you wouldn't get the dynamics? You sound like your equating dynamics with loudness, Or are you saying the subwoofers lack always lack dynamics?

JohnMichael
12-21-2011, 12:46 PM
lol... I always imagined I'd have that exact same problem if I owned a sub... unless I have a good DSP program and a microphone, chances are I'd go nuts constantly fiddling with the settings...



I do find that a pair of compact towers with dual 6 - 6.5" woofers generally works well in a modest sized apartment. That's why I generally prefer towers (that and aesthetics)... The problem is finding a pair of towers in your budget that will be a sufficient upgrade over your RS6s...


Yes the dual woofers deliver plenty of bass in my room. The two 6 inch drivers cover the low frequencies and the dual ports combine to make tuneful and solid bass. Last night moved the speakers closer together and used less toe-in. Center imaging is more solid and small groups are a little more focused.

frenchmon
12-21-2011, 05:27 PM
Ha! I've got those and they help. I though I had the sub tuned right but on measuring I discovered that it was still a set a little high. Easily fixed, though.

As for the DSP I've found that I prefer the bass flat to the limits of the speaker which is 26 Hz for -3 dB with the sub; for the treble however, I like it rolled off smoothly from 2 kHz or so rather than completely flat.

Thats what I don't understand....why use tools to tell me what my ears can hear? You measured and it told you it was not right? What about your ears?

Jack in Wilmington
12-21-2011, 06:26 PM
That was the trouble that I had with my old sub. Sure it was great for home theater cause it went down to like 18hz. It just didn't intergrate with my main speakers well. When I bought my Ushers I knew I needed a change. The REL has taken care of the problem because it connects to the speaker outs for music and it also connects via a LFE cable for home theater applications.

RGA
12-21-2011, 06:58 PM
Frenchmon:

Using your ears to listen - are you CRAAAAZY? If that graph says it it must be true. Many people need the graph - the ears can't be trusted.


Feanor:

Dynamics is not just bass at a loud level. Subwoofers add volume to the bass - similar to a loudness control to make the sound "fuller." There are different kinds of bass and there are different kinds of dynamics. Subs tend to have one bass "sound" and you can adjust the volume level - the kind of bass may not be the same kind of bass that your speaker puts out - two disperate sounds doesn't mesh and that can't JUST be fixed with a crossover.

The physical material itself has a sonic signature or (sound) and you can easily determine this by tapping the drivers or playing a steady state frequency. Two tweeters may play the same frequency at the same volume level and not sound the same doing it. The graph my state 700hz at 84db on both drivers but that is hardly telling you what it actually sounds like doing it.

Quad spent a fair amount of time explaining why (on their boxed speakers) and several other speaker makers do as well. It's also no doubt why so many people prefer the sound of single drivers whether by lowther, Magnepan etc. It has nothing to do with drivers being enclosed in a box or "slowness" which is absurd since cones move at speeds faster than any ear can detect. The biggest problem is that the drivers don't sound the same. Adding a sub to a single driver speaker essentially makes it a 2 way. And in most cases it winds up turning a full range Quad into a Martin Logan hybrid - and the reason Quad is much better than ML is because Quad is a single drive and Martin Logan has a woofer that sticks out like a sore thumb.

Some of us can actually "hear" the sound of the drivers and it is highly annoying to have one that stick out.

As much as I love AN speakers and they're the very best ones I've heard at meshing those drive units together - they still don't match the cohesiveness of the bet single drivers. They get very close - and they bring several other things to the table that those speakers don't match (for any sane price) but there is a reason why Peter Qvortrup's fvorite loudspeaker is not his own - but a single driver based speaker. Few manufacturers would be willing to say that o a public forum.

Dynamics and bass have a myriad of different attributes. The noted problem with a lot of subs - and a lot of speakers - is the dreaded one note thud of most of them. There is the tuneful bass vairiety. The reason people I suspect like AN speakers and will forgive the odd frequency variatins is because unlike virtually every other boxed speakers the bass midbass sounds like an actual piano box when a piano is playing - referred to as tuneful bass because the bass breathes and sounds open and couples to the air in the room. It has a live bouncy nimble presence. This is somewhat a trait in better HE based speakers but the problem is they usually tend to be horns which bring a bunch of other issues to the table IME.

audiofederation discusses dynmics grouping them into macro-dynmics, midi-dynamics, and micro-dynamics. Since they already have written about it and I agree with their definitions of it I will direct you there Audio Federation Blog » Blog Archive » Sorting large amps based on their micro-dynamic capability - High-end Audio Blog (http://audiofederation.com/blog/archives/653) (and no it's not abut AN) This is part not the original page - I am not on my computer and this one is hving some problems but you can serch back to their defintitions.

You can't restore dynamics to a set of speakers by adding a sub - you add bass and bass volume level.

Ajani
12-21-2011, 07:44 PM
Thats what I don't understand....why use tools to tell me what my ears can hear? You measured and it told you it was not right? What about your ears?

I think there are at least 2 reason to use tools:

1) Some of us are obsessive - hence we will be constantly wondering if we need to change the crossover point or the volume setting.

2) Others of us are not meticulous enough - so if we set the crossover and volume and it sounds "OK", we're not going to go through hours of experimenting to see if we found the optimal setting...

Tools solve both problems... While your ears wouldn't....

frenchmon
12-22-2011, 03:02 AM
I think there are at least 2 reason to use tools:

1) Some of us are obsessive - hence we will be constantly wondering if we need to change the crossover point or the volume setting.

2) Others of us are not meticulous enough - so if we set the crossover and volume and it sounds "OK", we're not going to go through hours of experimenting to see if we found the optimal setting...

Tools solve both problems... While your ears wouldn't....

I see your point....but a tool need never tell me when the sound moves me just right! After all...for some of us, its not about the fancy toys to do the work of what I feel is right....but about being moved by what we hear. So no tools for me in that regard....if it sounds right to my ears and moves me inwardly....its set right. But having said all that....I no longer use a sub and have not for about a year...I use stand monitors without a sub. My poor sub for two channel has been sitting in storage. Now if you talking home theater...thats a different ball game.

Feanor
12-22-2011, 05:55 AM
Thats what I don't understand....why use tools to tell me what my ears can hear? You measured and it told you it was not right? What about your ears?
Nope. I don't entirely trust my ears. Hearing, after all is psycho-acoustical, that is, not simply a physical phenomenon. It's easy to deceive ourselves that a certain reproduction is accurate when it isn't, or that we hear differences that we don't.

I've been involved with hi-fi for forty years and it's my impression that audiophiles have be come less & less concerned with accuracy and more & more concerned with euphony. But euphony is a personal preference: nothing wrong with personal preference but since it various from person to person, it's a poor a basis for sharing advice -- which is the main purpose of this site.

Lest you think otherwise, I do respect my own preferences. Partly this is conditioned by the type of music I like which tends to classical with a fair amount of large-scale choral and orchestral music. This type of music puts a premium on resolution and transparency. Also, since it's accoustic, it tends to stress natural instrument timbres.

So in case of my own use of measurement and DSP equalization I've found a some increase in transparency and naturalness having got rid of the response peaks & valleys that my unequalize system was putting out.

On the other hand, I had to acknowledge that many recordings are excessively bright for my preference (though it might have been what the record producer/engineer wanted). Accordingly I have set my DSP to gradually roll off the HF (versus making it flat). Still, I benefit from a smoother roll-off than would otherwise be the case.

Feanor
12-22-2011, 06:13 AM
....
Feanor:

Dynamics is not just bass at a loud level. Subwoofers add volume to the bass - similar to a loudness control to make the sound "fuller." There are different kinds of bass and there are different kinds of dynamics. Subs tend to have one bass "sound" and you can adjust the volume level - the kind of bass may not be the same kind of bass that your speaker puts out - two disperate sounds doesn't mesh and that can't JUST be fixed with a crossover.

The physical material itself has a sonic signature or (sound) and you can easily determine this by tapping the drivers or playing a steady state frequency. ...
...

You can't restore dynamics to a set of speakers by adding a sub - you add bass and bass volume level.
Since it is directly contrary to my personal experience I'm not convinced that a subwoofer can't deliver improved dynamics over the same system without it.

Of course I accept that all drivers sound slightly different for various reasons. Mixing different speakers, especially monopole vs. dipole, dynamic vs. planar, wide vs. narrow dispersion, can be problematic. On the other hand there is excellent evidence that large drivers -- such as found in subwoofers -- produce bass with lower distortion and better dynamics, and greater inherent efficiency than small drivers attempting to reproduce the same frequencies. With proper crossover implementation they do effectively supplement (or replace) smaller drivers bass output -- they are inherently less effective than placing a large driver in a three-way system, and might be more so.

So, yes, I'm comfortable rejecting your assertion that subwoofers can "restore" (deliver) better dynamics to an otherwise small driver system.

[edit] BTW, the item you link puts the macro-, mid-, and macrodynamic discussion in an amplfier context, and doesn't even define the terms. It in no way supports your arguement that subwoofers can't be more dynamic than smaller speakers in their relevant frequency ranges.

Feanor
12-22-2011, 07:48 AM
...
Of course I accept that all drivers sound slightly different for various reasons. Mixing different speakers, especially monopole vs. dipole, dynamic vs. planar, wide vs. narrow dispersion, can be problematic. On the other hand there is excellent evidence that large drivers -- such as found in subwoofers -- produce bass with lower distortion and better dynamics, and greater inherent efficiency than small drivers attempting to reproduce the same frequencies. With proper crossover implementation they do effectively supplement (or replace) smaller drivers bass output -- they are inherently less effective than placing a large driver in a three-way system, and might be more so.
...
It's not too far OT to talk about the current fashion of using multiple, small drivers for bass in floor standers. This is a consumer aesthetic concession and has nothing to do with better sound. For a start, it isn't the great idea to have mulitple drivers reproducing the mid or higher frequency range because you will get "lobing", (mutual signal interference); although "2.5 way" designs can overcome this. Multiple drivers can reduce the strain on any single driver, producing more output without so much driver displacement and distortion. However nothing can overcome the limitations of small drivers' higher Fs which limits how deep they can go.

We observe the elite manufacturers of dynamic speakers, such as Wilson Audio, Avalon, Kharma, or Legacy, tend no to use multiple, small drivers. Instead they use the size of driver most appropriate to the frequency range and this means large drivers for the bass. So these speakers don't need a subwoofer (as a separate entity) to reproduce lots of deep base. On the other hand for optimal results they have to be place even more carefully than monitors for best bass results. E.g. using the Cardas speaker placement rules which produce great results, but not everyone has the luxury of placing their speakers according to that strict formula. A subwoofer, on the other hand, has more flexibility for place since its location isn't determined exclusively by the main speaker placement.

JohnMichael
12-22-2011, 06:49 PM
Here is a pair of speakers I would like to audition. The Legacy Studio HD.

RGA
12-23-2011, 03:32 AM
Since it is directly contrary to my personal experience I'm not convinced that a subwoofer can't deliver improved dynamics over the same system without it.

Of course I accept that all drivers sound slightly different for various reasons. Mixing different speakers, especially monopole vs. dipole, dynamic vs. planar, wide vs. narrow dispersion, can be problematic. On the other hand there is excellent evidence that large drivers -- such as found in subwoofers -- produce bass with lower distortion and better dynamics, and greater inherent efficiency than small drivers attempting to reproduce the same frequencies. With proper crossover implementation they do effectively supplement (or replace) smaller drivers bass output -- they are inherently less effective than placing a large driver in a three-way system, and might be more so.

So, yes, I'm comfortable rejecting your assertion that subwoofers can "restore" (deliver) better dynamics to an otherwise small driver system.

[edit] BTW, the item you link puts the macro-, mid-, and macrodynamic discussion in an amplfier context, and doesn't even define the terms. It in no way supports your arguement that subwoofers can't be more dynamic than smaller speakers in their relevant frequency ranges.

A subwoofer is replacing sound that isn't there because small standmounts don't have any bass - so of course a subwoofer has more bass and obviously more dynamics than "nothing." It is at the point where the handoff occurs - you now how have two drivers reproducing the same notes and when two very different drivers in different cabinets are both emitting the same notes - there is a problem - and it's not a matter of let's set the sub to X crossover point.

Macro-dynamics is loud level dynamic range - midi- is the midrange level dynamics - and micro - are all the dynamics within subtlies of notes brush strokes on cymbals, strings etc. This applies to amplifiers or speakers. audiofederation was merely ranking big beast SS amplifiers. They do the same with tube amplifiers. They discuss speakers widely as well.

Subs obviously have a very limited frequency range. Since most are largely built for home theater the main goal is Macro-Dynamic high impact slam. The nature of the "long throw" driver is precisely to generate high excursion level - which in turn makes them less nimble IMO and not the least bit subtle when required for acoustic instruments.

I want to make the point here I am not telling anyone not to buy a sub - please don't misunderstand me - everything in audio reproduction is a trade-off that you must choose to live with. In the case of many standmount speakers - even though I may gripe about sub integration - the trade-off is to live without "good bass weight" under about 55hz-75hz. So even if it isn't bang on I'd still likely opt for a subwoofer (or better two) to add to such loudspeakers.

I would also point out that some subs simply may not be very good with some speakers - and of course there are better subs and worse subs out there. The fact that I have not been super thrilled is based on the ones i've heard which is by no means remotely all that many.

Poultrygeist
12-23-2011, 05:02 PM
I wish you guys could come to my house and hear OB bass. You'd be hooked just like I am. It integrates seamlessly like no sub could ever do. But most importantly it makes music.

I hope to get DJ, our new member and concert violinist to post his impressions next time he visits.

frenchmon
12-23-2011, 06:06 PM
Here is a pair of speakers I would like to audition. The Legacy Studio HD.

Its too bad they are mail order only. Have you checked the return policy?

JohnMichael
12-23-2011, 06:47 PM
Its too bad they are mail order only. Have you checked the return policy?



No but right now I am just trying to get through the holidays. As an introvert being forced to be around people is painful. Then I can return to the speaker search by checking out return policies. Of course I do not want to buy something unheard but the 8inch 2 way might give me both the sound and mid bass I would like.

RGA
12-23-2011, 10:12 PM
A heads up and a money saver is the Roksan TR-05 I am currently auditioning Roksan Kandy K2 TR-5 review from the experts at whathifi.com (http://www.whathifi.com/review/roksan-kandy-k2-tr-5) They have the ribbon tweeter as well.

Let's say that so far I agree with What Hi-Fi. I believe they too go for about $1500 US. Not sure on the conversion rates. But you may be able to find an actual dealer in your town as Roksan is fairly widely known.

Feanor
12-24-2011, 12:47 PM
A subwoofer is replacing sound that isn't there because small standmounts don't have any bass - so of course a subwoofer has more bass and obviously more dynamics than "nothing." It is at the point where the handoff occurs - you now how have two drivers reproducing the same notes and when two very different drivers in different cabinets are both emitting the same notes - there is a problem - and it's not a matter of let's set the sub to X crossover point.
....
Crossovers are always an issue, not one confined to just the main/sub transition. I'll agree that problems may arise, e.g. when the mains are run full range while the sub has a low-pass filter. As is the general rule complementary high- and low-pass filters are highly desireable -- not matter whether between sub & main, or between mid/bass & tweeter. When high- as well as low-pass is used, integration be excellent as I observed with my MMG + sub combo.


...
Subs obviously have a very limited frequency range. Since most are largely built for home theater the main goal is Macro-Dynamic high impact slam. The nature of the "long throw" driver is precisely to generate high excursion level - which in turn makes them less nimble IMO and not the least bit subtle when required for acoustic instruments.
...
Indeed, a larger driver (such as in the sub) reduces the need for "long throw" i.e. high excursion in order to produce dynamics and volume. Large drivers simply don't have to move as far to produce the same sound level. This is precisely why subs are often the ideal solution in case of main speakers with limited bass capabilities.

JohnMichael
12-24-2011, 01:06 PM
I just noticed a pair of Epos M5i on sale for $499. I know they do not meet my qualifications but what a good deal.

frenchmon
12-24-2011, 04:14 PM
No but right now I am just trying to get through the holidays. As an introvert being forced to be around people is painful. Then I can return to the speaker search by checking out return policies. Of course I do not want to buy something unheard but the 8inch 2 way might give me both the sound and mid bass I would like.

Well while in Carolina I briefly heard a pair, but cant even began to tell you what they sounded like. It was a hug speaker I do remember...but that's all I remember. The factory is in Springfield Ill and I could get there in a 2 hours drive. Don't know...when I am ready to purchase speakers I might take a trip up...just might do it for the fun of it this summer. But its funny. They are 2 hours from St. Louis and no dealers around here....kinda tells you how audio-dry it is around here.

frenchmon
12-24-2011, 04:21 PM
I just noticed a pair of Epos M5i on sale for $499. I know they do not meet my qualifications but what a good deal.

No...but these might at $1200. a pair M12i

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/product_images/m12i_onstands.jpg


Never heard them but LeRoy has heard the brand and he says they are good speakers and I trust his ears. And for what its worth, I've seen the guys over at Audioasylum speak positive...good things about Epos....and you know if some of those snobbs speak highly of an English speaker made in China, thats saying something.

JohnMichael
12-27-2011, 12:47 PM
Well I geeked out over the holiday with my stereo. Worked on room placement, toe-in and adjusting spikes to level the speakers. I also tried many IC and cable changes. Even tried some felt diffraction control around the tweeters.

While doing all this I kept in mind not what was sounding exciting but what sounded like music. I also used aural memories of speakers I have heard and liked.

The system I will be using until a chance to shop is the following;
Marantz SA8001
Rega, Grado, Slee
Krell S-300i
Mobile Fidelity Original Master Loudspeaker1
DNM Reson IC's
AlphaCore Micropurl IC's
AntiCable speaker cables.

I have decided I have no desire to hear the RS6's again. The bass is good but they are not very musical. I moved the RS6's closer together and decided to try the OML1's in the same location. Both pairs have benefitted from that placement. I have also used more toe-in with the OML1's then ever before. Being closer together not by much but I think the reduction in side wall reflections help.

I think this combination of tweaks and geeks will keep me happy until I find the speakers of my affordable dreams. It was a good experiment to try various combinations of components, speakers and wires. Even the Ascend CBM's sounded better being driven by the Krell. I think I have the most musical combination of equipment I own. The Onkyo A-9555 is still an enjoyable amp but not at the level of the Krell.

I mentioned no interest in hearing the Monitor Audio RS6's and joining along is the AQ Slates and the AlphaCore TQ2. The Slates thicken and dull the sound. At first the Slates sound good but after awhile the cables impart a sameness to the sound. I wonder if that is why they came up with the DBS system. The AlphaCore TQ2 tends to whiten the sound and dull the midrange.

It may be time to have a yard sale. Any proceeds I can use to increase my budget. Now that I am confident that I have the best system from available components I think I can be more patient in choosing new speakers. I was at a point where I was going to just buy something different instead of something truly better.

BadAssJazz
12-27-2011, 06:19 PM
I applaud your restraint. Given $2500 and the notion that I "need" to upgrade, I'm probably kicking in the door at Salk Sounds and/or Tyler Acoustics; or posting want ads on every audiophile forum from here to Timbuktu begging someone to part with a pair of the pre-owned Silverline Audio SR17.5 or the Proac Response D1 monitors for my sub $2K asking price.

JohnMichael
12-29-2011, 11:48 AM
I have decided to stop using the Sound Improvement Disc in the cd player. I am not sure if it makes a consistent improvement with every disc. Some cd's sound dull with the SID. I am enjoying a more open midrange with some cd's.

I was playing around with felt dots for diffraction control and I recently moved those to the edge of the tweeter mounting plate instead of closer to the dome. This helps with imaging and with the dots moved away the highs are more extended than they were when they were closer.

I think I have the system sounding it's best. This should keep me from ordering speakers that I have not heard just because I have had a few glasses of wine and have plastic in hand.

One speaker that I listened to last time I was in Minneapolis was the NHT 3 way bookshelf. Even though they are below my budget I want to listen to them again. If memory serves they had a 6 1/2 inch woofer with a dome midrange and tweeter. All the drivers were metal which concerns me after the MA RS6's.

I would like to find a speaker with a lively and more open midrange. I do not want a more forward speaker. The Reference 3A's have the midrange I like. I wonder if it is because the only crossover is for the tweeter and the woofer is driven directly by the amp. I think the Epos 5i and 12i have a similar direct driven mid/woofer and the only crossover for the tweeter. They are currently available for a good price.

JohnMichael
12-29-2011, 06:27 PM
No...but these might at $1200. a pair M12i

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/product_images/m12i_onstands.jpg


Never heard them but LeRoy has heard the brand and he says they are good speakers and I trust his ears. And for what its worth, I've seen the guys over at Audioasylum speak positive...good things about Epos....and you know if some of those snobbs speak highly of an English speaker made in China, thats saying something.


They are on sale for $699. I am having a tough time passing up the bargain.

Ajani
12-29-2011, 06:54 PM
They are on sale for $699. I am having a tough time passing up the bargain.

The new models from Epos (the Elan line) are going to debut at CES in January (which is probably why those are on sale).....

http://p.twimg.com/Agy51-FCIAEHIrT.jpg

RGA
12-29-2011, 08:15 PM
Interestingly EPOS has finally gone to a soft dome tweeter - that peaks my interest. It took them long enough!

Ajani
12-29-2011, 08:26 PM
Interestingly EPOS has finally gone to a soft dome tweeter - that peaks my interest. It took them long enough!

For your next review you may want to try an all Epos/Creek system...

RGA
12-29-2011, 09:37 PM
I like Creek - terrible name for an audio company but typically one of the best budget SS makers. Ditto - Roksan/Sugden/Heed Audio.

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 07:30 AM
The new models from Epos (the Elan line) are going to debut at CES in January (which is probably why those are on sale).....

http://p.twimg.com/Agy51-FCIAEHIrT.jpg

Are you sure those are the Elan's? They look just like the older Epic series

http://www.epos-acoustics.com/product_images/epic2_mainstage2.jpg

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 07:35 AM
I like Creek - terrible name for an audio company but typically one of the best budget SS makers. Ditto - Roksan/Sugden/Heed Audio.

Well...just like lots of gear....it takes on the name of the owner of the company...Mike Creek.

Ajani
12-30-2011, 07:35 AM
First it looks similar, but the Elan is clearly a better finish... the black baffle is in front of the cabinet, not framed by the cabinet like the Epic...

More importantly, I posted that pic from Epos' Twitter feed showing pics of the Elan series:

Twitter (http://twitter.com/#!/EposLtd)

The pic I posted wat the Elan 10. Here's the 15 in Black Ash:

http://p.twimg.com/AgyyhhnCIAIS7Zq.jpg

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 08:06 AM
Yeah...Im on that site now and cant find a picture. Can you link where you found it?

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 08:07 AM
This is all I see. EposLtd Epos Ltd
Get ready for an exclusive look at the new Elan range of speakers, only via our twitter account!

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 08:09 AM
Oh Ok...just found it.

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 08:16 AM
Man...you are right! They are very much like the Epic line.

Elan 30 https://p.twimg.com/AgyYJ6_CQAELcBl.jpg:large

Elan 35 https://p.twimg.com/AgyJGhICMAA1x3b.jpg:large

Elan 15 https://p.twimg.com/AgyyhhnCIAIS7Zq.jpg:large

Elan 10 https://p.twimg.com/Agy51-FCIAEHIrT.jpg:large

Ajani
12-30-2011, 08:21 AM
Man...you are right! They are very much like the Epic line.

Yep similar appearance but with a much nicer finish... Works for me as I like the look of the Epic line and this Elan line looks even better... Hopefully it will sound much better as well...

LeRoy
12-30-2011, 09:04 AM
Man, all this Epos talk has rekindled my favorable opinion of the M5 and M12...too bad Epos did away with the ELS 3.

With a new soft dome tweeter in the new line it looks like I am going to have to pay my local Epos dealer a visit.

Ya, it's hard to pass up on the lower prices of the M12i or M5i.

frenchmon
12-30-2011, 12:25 PM
JM...have you ever thought about Grantfidelity speakers??? They look very nice and the price is right.

My Grant Fdelity system. - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums (http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=413945)

JohnMichael
12-30-2011, 05:46 PM
JM...have you ever thought about Grantfidelity speakers??? They look very nice and the price is right.

My Grant Fdelity system. - AudioKarma.org Home Audio Stereo Discussion Forums (http://audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=413945)




I am not in the mood to order speakers that I would have to pack up and return if I did not like them. There are many speakers that are available as kits or for home audition that look interesting but I want to hear and make the purchase. I am looking for a pair of speakers that may be my last purchase. My retirement speakers that I can enjoy when I have no place I need to be.

If I was going to order speakers I would probably grab something very different like the MMG's.

Pat D
01-01-2012, 02:08 PM
Please forgive me Paradigm owners but I think what has kept me away from the brand is how busy the cabinets look. There seems to be a lot of plastic added to the enclosures. I also like the PSB Imagine T's looks.

Where's the plastic in the enclosure of the Signature S2? Mine seem to have a tough plastic mount for the binding posts on back but that's it.

Signature S2 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website. (http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/bookshelf/signature/signature-series/signature-s2)

JohnMichael
01-01-2012, 03:04 PM
Where's the plastic in the enclosure of the Signature S2? Mine seem to have a tough plastic mount for the binding posts on back but that's it.

Signature S2 - Welcome to the New Official Paradigm® Website. (http://www.paradigm.com/products/products-by-category/bookshelf/signature/signature-series/signature-s2)




For much the same reason I do not like some features of the RS6's I do not like them on other speakers. The faceplate for the tweeter, mounting ring for the woofer and the trim around the port be they metal or plastic distract from the looks in my opinion. I feel the same way about the Studio 60 and 100's. The material on the top over the tweeter, driver mounting rings and the add on base with the name. I prefer a more sedate look like the Totem Hawk if I am going to invest in new speakers.

blackraven
01-01-2012, 05:34 PM
I would consider these Salk monitors-

Veracity ht1 - pricing (http://www.salksound.com/veracity%20ht1%20-%20pricing.htm)

The Veracity series are great speakers. Deep powerful bass, smooth, airy and transparent midrange and sweet detailed treble.

Pat D
01-01-2012, 05:38 PM
For much the same reason I do not like some features of the RS6's I do not like them on other speakers. The faceplate for the tweeter, mounting ring for the woofer and the trim around the port be they metal or plastic distract from the looks in my opinion. I feel the same way about the Studio 60 and 100's. The material on the top over the tweeter, driver mounting rings and the add on base with the name. I prefer a more sedate look like the Totem Hawk if I am going to invest in new speakers.

Paradigm Signature speakers have a more even response with the grilles on! You don't have to look at the driver mountings! :wink5:

Some people seem to prefer the sound that way, strangely enough.

Paradigm Reference Signature S2 loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/paradigm-reference-signature-s2-loudspeaker-measurements)

Check fig. 5.

JohnMichael
01-01-2012, 06:37 PM
I would consider these Salk monitors-

Veracity ht1 - pricing (http://www.salksound.com/veracity%20ht1%20-%20pricing.htm)

The Veracity series are great speakers. Deep powerful bass, smooth, airy and transparent midrange and sweet detailed treble.



I did not see any dealers listed. How can I hear them before purchase?

blackraven
01-01-2012, 06:55 PM
That's the problem with Salks. But JM, if you come back to Minneapolis, give me a heads up and I'll take you over to Frank Van Alstine's house and you can audition the Veracity HTR-3's and possibly the Song Towers in at his house.

Also, give Jim Salk a call, he may know of some one near you that owns a pair that you be able to give a listen too.

Salk speakers sell by word of mouth and auditions at audio shows.

YBArcam
01-09-2012, 11:22 PM
They are on sale for $699. I am having a tough time passing up the bargain.

Check out the thread on AK first, it's from this year. A poster was complaining that they are very bright, and another one mentioned he had the same issue (he actually tried them a couple of years earlier, this is on yet another forum). Apparently EPOS have admitted there was an issue with the speaker, a missing resistor in the crossover in some of the earlier production models. I was considering jumping on this deal as well, and found the thread in my research.

Getting back to the topic at hand, I would also consider the PMC TB2i. It is about $2,500, with a 6.5" driver in front of a transmission line. I'm running a pair right now. I have tried a whole bunch of speakers over the past year (I tend to buy used or demo models and sell if I decide to move on) and the PMC is probably the best I've heard. It is the most expensive, so it probably should be the best. I still own my Castle Avon floorstanders, which I will keep long term. They bumped a few contenders already, so it's clear I like them very much...but they have probably met their match with the TB2i.

The TB2i's cabinet is very well constructed, it sounds deader than any other speaker I've knocked on. Deep, punchy, but clean bass from the transmission line design. The speaker produces a very clean but also very rich midrange, with excellent imaging. I think the fourth order crossover contributes to the clarity and precision. Driver integration is excellent. It is more seductive than the drier sounding Castle, yet retains the PRaT that the Castle exhibits. Still breaking in, but this is how I feel so far. Oh, and I don't feel like I'm missing any bass from the smaller standmount PMC. PMC are known for producing excellent bass. As hours are put on the speaker, the bass becomes a little more open. Transmission line bass might take a little adapting to (not much though, it begins to sound very natural in short order).

Btw, stands contribute to bass big time. I know you mentioned what stands you own. Not sure if any are fillable (or filled), but a very heavy stand filled with sand or leadshot will definitely augment the bass. It is surprising how much bass I've gotten from standmounts while on my Kudos stands.

And I would say careful about going to a big 8" speaker,, like the 3a De Capo, in your small room. My room is about same size as yours (mine is about 13x11 - a bit smaller than yours I believe). When I tried the rear ported Monitor Audio RX2 it overpowered the room. IMO those needed more room to breathe. Something to think about...you have a few more feet to work with so it could work, but I'd be careful.

frenchmon
01-15-2012, 06:59 PM
Man...I cant wait till these are release. I want to read a few reviews and I just may put in an order for a pair if I like what I read....My dealer who deals Epos, dont keep them in stock for demo, but I think I will ask him to stock a pair for demo.

Those Elan stand mounts with those Epos stands look really coo!

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/europroducts/DSCN0008.jpg

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/europroducts/DSCN0012.jpg

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/europroducts/DSCN0002.jpg

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/europroducts/DSCN0011.jpg

http://i597.photobucket.com/albums/tt54/europroducts/DSCN0010.jpg

frenchmon
01-19-2012, 07:57 AM
Looks like the target date for the Elan is March or April.