Internalizing the WAF

[Feanor]

I've loved my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's for several years now but there is a problem: they have to reside in the living room. That room is the only room adequately dimensiones and laid out to accomodate them, but it's also the formal area for receiving quests. Even so, my wife is very tolerant of the appearance of the MG 1.6's, (bless her heart), but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.

What I'm considering, (I think), is a pair of 2-way, probably stand-mount speakers that can be placed within 1' of the wall and cost under $1200. For sound I prefer neutrality, clean detail, and precise imaging. With these speakers I intend to continue to use my passive preamp and my very neutral & transparent class D amp -- although I would considered active speakers too.

Folks, I need you help because I've been disregarding the state of the market for the type of speakers I've described" Your advice and suggestions, please! :14:

[Luvin Da Blues]

....PSB Sync one BS. Great neutral sounding speakers and a fairly decent bottom end.

Synchrony One B - PSB Speakers (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/bookshelf-speakers/Synchrony-One-B)

[Ajani]

The only monitors I could recommend, retail for $2K; Revel Performa M22... However, I'm sure I've seen a few of them recently on A'gon within your budget...

The Revels have controls on the back for choosing between operating in free space or close to walls...

[Feanor]

....PSB Sync one BS. Great neutral sounding speakers and a fairly decent bottom end.

Synchrony One B - PSB Speakers (http://www.psbspeakers.com/products/bookshelf-speakers/Synchrony-One-B)
The Sync One B needs to be on my short list, that is, provide I can get a little closer to my budget of $1200 than the MSRP of $2000.

I would expect to continue to use my current subwoofer, an older PSB Subsonic 5.

[Feanor]

The only monitors I could recommend, retail for $2K; Revel Performa M22... However, I'm sure I've seen a few of them recently on A'gon within your budget...

The Revels have controls on the back for choosing between operating in free space or close to walls...
The Performa M22 is certainly the type of speaker I'm interested in. At $2k MSRP, availability of a used pair is a big consideration.

[Luvin Da Blues]

The Sync One B needs to be on my short list, that is, provide I can get a little closer to my budget of $1200 than the MSRP of $2000.

I would expect to continue to use my current subwoofer, an older PSB Subsonic 5.


I have gotten good deals from John. He may even have a demo pair availiable. 'Course the shipping might add to many pesos to the bill.

John Hope
Visual Sound Store
#8 - 625 Cliffe Ave.
Courtenay BC V9N 2J6 250-338-5177
250-338-9907 (fax)

[Enochrome]

I recently heard the Focal Chorus 807V at a dealer and I really thought it was impressive. Crystal clarity and very revealing, but smooth. It had really great controlled bass not muddled or boomy. I have heard that they can be unforgiving of bad recordings or crappy upstream gear, but from what I remember of your posts that I have read you have neither. You might like them especially since you have the passive pre and Class D. Which by the way, that combo is what I am striving for now, hopefully I will be able to put a system like that together.

The Focals sell for way under a 1000 on Audiogon (I think there is a pair now for $600) They have an aggressive look that might have a WAF issue.

Left -field recommendation is a pair of Snell J V.2 on Ebay ($300) right now. I have a pair of Snell Type Q's (I have way too many speakers right now) and they are the most neutral and ruthlessly revealing speakers I have ever heard. RGA can chime in on this, he knows more than me about Snell. They have however the most "ruler flat" frequency response out of almost any speaker.

Hope this helps.

[Enochrome]

Feanor,

If you are set on the Revel 22's someone is selling them on Audiogon for $1200.

Just a FYI

[Hyfi]

I recently heard the Focal Chorus 807V at a dealer and I really thought it was impressive. Crystal clarity and very revealing, but smooth. It had really great controlled bass not muddled or boomy. I have heard that they can be unforgiving of bad recordings or crappy upstream gear, but from what I remember of your posts that I have read you have neither. You might like them especially since you have the passive pre and Class D. Which by the way, that combo is what I am striving for now, hopefully I will be able to put a system like that together.

The Focals sell for way under a 1000 on Audiogon (I think there is a pair now for $600) They have an aggressive look that might have a WAF issue.

Left -field recommendation is a pair of Snell J V.2 on Ebay ($300) right now. I have a pair of Snell Type Q's (I have way too many speakers right now) and they are the most neutral and ruthlessly revealing speakers I have ever heard. RGA can chime in on this, he knows more than me about Snell. They have however the most "ruler flat" frequency response out of almost any speaker.

Hope this helps.

I have a pair of older JM Labs speakers before they switched the name to Focal. They are very fast accurate and revealing. Detailed but not very deep bass. Only complaint I have is the Titanium Tweeter that can get irritating on overly bright recordings. Overall, Focal or JM Labs speakers are not far behind Dynaudio, and most models at that time still lacked bass.

[Poultrygeist]

Art Dudley of Stereophile loves these and owns a pair. They're small ( great WAF ) and take up less space than a stand mounted speaker. Read the reviews on this forum as well as the HSH website.


the horn shoppe (http://www.thehornshoppe.com/)

[Feanor]

I have gotten good deals from John. He may even have a demo pair availiable. 'Course the shipping might add to many pesos to the bill.

John Hope
Visual Sound Store
#8 - 625 Cliffe Ave.
Courtenay BC V9N 2J6 250-338-5177
250-338-9907 (fax)
Thanks for the tip, LDB.

[E-Stat]

...but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.
My suggestion is to buy some of this (http://www.amazon.com/Scotch-Filament-Width-Length-Clear/dp/B0006NINBO/ref=pd_sbs_indust_3/192-0629147-4550659). Mark the speaker position and simply push them back towards the wall when company arrives. Most likely, they don't realize Maggies are speakers anyway.

[RGA]

With regards to the Snell J - Art Dudley had them and regrets having sold them. But I doubt the OP is willing to listen to anything outside the box of usual suspects. Any pun a fortunate coincidence.

The list of speakers in the $1200 price range is very deep. The Audio Note AX Two at $700 is versatile enough to front $40,000 front end stereos and not seem out of place sonically. Works with 5 watt amps ant 200 watt amps - is a nearfiled monitor that works near walls and corners. The cheaper version sounds better than the sig version so I would recommend it over a use sig version. The floorstanders are good but absolutely must be hard positioned in corners - they sound unbalanced and coloured out of corners. A Magneapn 1.6 lover / reviewer favourably compared the AZ two which is why I bring it up.

I would suggest the Sonist speakers as they have ribbon tweeters and if it's the type of treble you're used to then perhaps this is the best route.

Nevertheless - a corner loaded speaker solves room WAF issues since they don't take up 1/3 of the living area if they have to be 4 feet into the room then it doesn't matter if it's a panel or slim Totem or a fat Magnepan - all the space behind them is wasted regardless and they are obtrusive.

The new AZ Two is in this price range bu Hi-Fi Choice magazine as part of a system review - but IME they must be placed in corners to get away from colourations - though this is a newer model so perhaps some things have been altered. Page 2 of the Hi-Fi Choice review talks about the speakers here Audio Note Zero System review | from TechRadar's expert reviews of Audio systems (http://www.techradar.com/reviews/audio-visual/hi-fi-and-audio/audio-systems/audio-note-zero-system-963545/review?artc_pg=2)
The AX and AZ speakers are built in anew plant in Denmark that can actually get products out the door. I am planning to buy a set of one or the other here in Hong Kong at some point.

I hear Roksan's complete system and enjoyed it - They have a standmount speaker likely in this price range that uses a ribbon tweeter Best Loudspeaker (http://www.roksan.co.uk/roksan/roksanpage.php?pageno=29) If it sounds as good as the bigger floorstander I heard at $3000 then this may be worth considering as well. But I have no clue how close to the wall you can put them.

Various sealed box designs usually don't have issues with close to wall positioning - Older Celestion and NHT models might be acceptable. The latter may have the kind of imaging desired.

Few speakers will meet the request that like close to wall positioning that also sound good, also are $1200 and under - so I can't recommend many speakers I like as a result because I am not sure how they would handle near room boundaries.

At least with panels - they are easy to shove over to the side when you have guests - big hulking heavy speakers not so much.

C'mon Feaner - you know you have to get a pair of AN E's in your house and stick them in the corners - look at the space you will have :-) Audio Note $1,000,000 loudspeakers.mp4 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYB2OQncOgU)

[Ajani]

The Audio Note AX Two at $700 is versatile enough to front $40,000 front end stereos and not seem out of place sonically.

Seriously? That statement doesn't strike you as being perhaps a touch over the top?

[RGA]

You should listen to it with $40k worth of gear. Granted there is a large segment that always supports the source first philosophy so such gear should in theory help out any decent loudspeaker.

Though I was surprised at how much better it sounded with better and better gear - often there is an early stopping point with numerous loudspeakers (which is usually why we hear the DBT crowd not hear differences in amplifiers and CD players - bad speakers won't separate the better gear. The AX Two does and that is partly why I will likely buy them.

And the bonus is gear is cheaper here due to tariffs and no tax.

EDIT: Although I would say I would not create such an unbalance system when there are better speakers available

[blackraven]

I second the PSB's but how about some Fritz speakers

Fritz Speakers Loudspeakers Sound System Designs (http://www.fritzspeakers.com/index.asp)

Or the Paradigm Studio 20's, a very clean sounding speaker vs the warmer sounding PSB's.

[Dawnrazor]

I've loved my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's for several years now but there is a problem: they have to reside in the living room. That room is the only room adequately dimensiones and laid out to accomodate them, but it's also the formal area for receiving quests. Even so, my wife is very tolerant of the appearance of the MG 1.6's, (bless her heart), but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.

![/I] :14:

Poor poor Feanor!

It depends on the room of course but mags dont need 3ft wall clearance. I know I know.

If you can try a sideways setup like the one in the pict with the speakers facing each other, then try it before throwing money away. I have the speakers 1ft from the sidewalls and they sound great in this tiny room with no option to get them 3ft from the walls.

Just in case the mags are the big lines above the amps! Ignore all that stuff flanking the bed. I was trying to figure out a sub placement and I decided to build a stand and put them under the mmgs:

[Feanor]

Poor poor Feanor!

It depends on the room of course but mags dont need 3ft wall clearance. I know I know.

If you can try a sideways setup like the one in the pict with the speakers facing each other, then try it before throwing money away. I have the speakers 1ft from the sidewalls and they sound great in this tiny room with no option to get them 3ft from the walls.

Just in case the mags are the big lines above the amps! Ignore all that stuff flanking the bed. I was trying to figure out a sub placement and I decided to build a stand and put them under the mmgs:
I have positioned Maggies as close as 1.5 feet from the wall. I've done this using this configuration (with the closer distance) ...

http://gallery.audioreview.com/data/audio//500/MaggieSetup.jpg

The results are acceptable in that there is no "dopler effect" or such artifacts, but you do shrink the soundstage and loose some ambiance.

[Feanor]

...
The list of speakers in the $1200 price range is very deep. The Audio Note AX Two at $700 is versatile enough to front $40,000 front end stereos and not seem out of place sonically. Works with 5 watt amps ant 200 watt amps - is a nearfiled monitor that works near walls and corners. The cheaper version sounds better than the sig version so I would recommend it over a use sig version. The floorstanders are good but absolutely must be hard positioned in corners - they sound unbalanced and coloured out of corners. A Magneapn 1.6 lover / reviewer favourably compared the AZ two which is why I bring it up.
...
Various sealed box designs usually don't have issues with close to wall positioning - Older Celestion and NHT models might be acceptable. The latter may have the kind of imaging desired.

Few speakers will meet the request that like close to wall positioning that also sound good, also are $1200 and under - so I can't recommend many speakers I like as a result because I am not sure how they would handle near room boundaries.
...

I'm not vehemently opposed to the AN's but these and some of the other speakers you mention are not readily available around here; I'd at least have to go to Toronto.

The AN ought to be placed in the corners but I'm not sure that this is viable option in our rooms.

It's interesting that you mentioned closed-box designs. I agree that these are more suitable for near-wall placement due to their more gradual bass roll-off. This is obviously true for older designs that were designed for actual bookshelf placement. I've I were to build my own speakers, (could still be an option), I would build a closed-box, however this does limit the choice of drivers because the majority of drivers available have Qts < .4 which is too low for closed boxes.

[Feanor]

I second the PSB's but how about some Fritz speakers

Fritz Speakers Loudspeakers Sound System Designs (http://www.fritzspeakers.com/index.asp)

Or the Paradigm Studio 20's, a very clean sounding speaker vs the warmer sounding PSB's.
The Fritz speakers look quite appealing, actually: sound, basic designs with high-quality drivers. Availability is a problem: if nothing worse, it's expensive to ship large, heavy, expensive objects from the US to Canada.

Paradigm Studio 20 are high on my consideration list. It's a bonus that they are made in North America, (more precisely, Canada).

[Ajani]

I'm not vehemently opposed to the AN's but these and some of the other speakers you mention are not readily available around here; I'd at least have to go to Toronto.

The AN ought to be placed in the corners but I'm not sure that this is viable option in our rooms.

It's interesting that you mentioned closed-box designs. I agree that these are more suitable for near-wall placement due to their more gradual bass roll-off. This is obviously true for older designs that were designed for actual bookshelf placement. I've I were to build my own speakers, (could still be an option), I would build a closed-box, however this does limit the choice of drivers because the majority of drivers available have Qts < .4 which is too low for closed boxes.

I do find the notion of closed speakers that can be placed against the wall or in corners to be appealing... From a practical perspective it makes more sense than speakers that need 3 feet of wall clearance...

If you want drivers with QTS > .4, you should check with Poultrygeist as those are the kind he uses for his open baffle designs...

I'm sure Poultry would regard this as heresy, but I've been tempted to take one of his OB designs and use it in a sealed box, so I could place it against the wall....

[Feanor]

Call me crazy, but at this point I'm giving some serious consider to professional style, active monitors. The best alternatives have serveral or all these useful features:

Built-in, custom tweaked amplifiers
Bi-amplification with tweaked, high-order crossovers
Bass level adjustment to accomodate near-wall and corner placement
High frequency level adjustment
High-pass bass filter which can make subwoofer integration easier.
Controlled dispersion, making early reflections easier to control
High output with relatively low distortion
Compact size
Inherently neutral frequency balance.
An example that has all these features is the Mackie HR624 MkII, (here (http://www.mackie.com/products/hrmk2series/) or here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/496951-REG/Mackie_HR624MKII_HR624mk2_140W_6_7.html)); a pair of these runs about a grand, new. These Mackies also have servo-controlled bass.

http://static.bhphotovideo.com/images/images345x345/496951.jpg

Dynaudio also makes a few models such as the BM5A, (here (http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/490878-REG/Dynaudio_Acoustics_995_001211_BM5A_Compact_100W.ht ml)), that is also about a grand the pair.

http://static.bhphotovideo.com/images/images345x345/490878.jpg

[Ajani]

Nothing wrong with Pro Actives... Especially if you just want accurate sound... I think the only issue is that you already have a nice Class D amp... so unless you plan to sell it, it seems a waste not to make use of it...

In addition to the Mackies, I've read a lot of good things about the Focal CMS line of actives... The CMS50 is within your budget:

http://static.bhphotovideo.com/images/images345x345/687632.jpg
Focal CMS 50 | Sweetwater.com (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMS50)

[manlystanley]

I've loved my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's for several years now but there is a problem: they have to reside in the living room. That room is the only room adequately dimensiones and laid out to accomodate them, but it's also the formal area for receiving quests. Even so, my wife is very tolerant of the appearance of the MG 1.6's, (bless her heart), but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.

What I'm considering, (I think), is a pair of 2-way, probably stand-mount speakers that can be placed within 1' of the wall and cost under $1200. For sound I prefer neutrality, clean detail, and precise imaging. With these speakers I intend to continue to use my passive preamp and my very neutral & transparent class D amp -- although I would considered active speakers too.

Folks, I need you help because I've been disregarding the state of the market for the type of speakers I've described" Your advice and suggestions, please! :14:

Look on e-bay for Jamo speakers. I recently read that some guy bought: 2 C809's and the C80 center for $450! Makes my deal on them look like I got took. The C809's originally sold for $1,000 each.

My WAF has been high for these speakers.

[Feanor]

Nothing wrong with Pro Actives... Especially if you just want accurate sound... I think the only issue is that you already have a nice Class D amp... so unless you plan to sell it, it seems a waste not to make use of it...

In addition to the Mackies, I've read a lot of good things about the Focal CMS line of actives... The CMS50 is within your budget:
...
Focal CMS 50 | Sweetwater.com (http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/CMS50)
Yep, the Focals certainly meet my criteria for pro monitors.

[blackraven]

Another speaker to consider that has gotten great review is the Usher X-718

Usher Audio > X Series Loudspeaker > X-718 (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/x-series/x-718)

GoodSound! "Equipment" Archives (http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/usher_audio_x718.htm)

[Feanor]

Another speaker to consider that has gotten great review is the Usher X-718

Usher Audio > X Series Loudspeaker > X-718 (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/x-series/x-718)

GoodSound! "Equipment" Archives (http://www.goodsound.com/equipment/usher_audio_x718.htm)
The Ushers are definitely worthy of consideration.

Interestingly, Parts Express offers the UA701CBK speaker kit (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-951) featuring similar drivers for $700 for a pair; also definitely worth considering.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/302-951_l.jpg

[Poultrygeist]

The PE kits have better drivers than you'll find in non-kit speakers anywhere near their price point. You know you've been itching to build something since the digital amp. The satisfaction of doing it yourself goes a long way plus I can give you some tips on cabinet dampening.

[Ajani]

The Ushers are definitely worthy of consideration.

Interestingly, Parts Express offers the UA701CBK speaker kit (http://www.parts-express.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?Partnumber=302-951) featuring similar drivers for $700 for a pair; also definitely worth considering.

http://www.parts-express.com/images/item_large/302-951_l.jpg

Interesting option, but isn't that speaker twin ported? So would it work near a wall or corner?

[Poultrygeist]

I only see one port tube in the picture but if it is rear ported an old sock stuffed in the opening works.

[Feanor]

Interesting option, but isn't that speaker twin ported? So would it work near a wall or corner?
I think a port only needs a short distance from the wall; 3-6" should be enough.

[blackraven]

If you decide to build the User speaks you might consider trying to upgrade the Drivers to the Be-719 Dancer series.

Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-718 (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/Be-718)

By the way, what are you going to do with the Maggies?

[Feanor]

If you decide to build the User speaks you might consider trying to upgrade the Drivers to the Be-719 Dancer series.

Usher Audio > Dancer Series Loudspeaker > Be-718 (http://www.usheraudiousa.com/products/loudspeakers/dancer-series/Be-718)

By the way, what are you going to do with the Maggies?
Interesting that the Be-719 is $2800 MSRP. Don't know the price of the 9980-20BEA tweeter it uses, but its 8948A mid/woofer is $130 at Parts Express, while the 8945A used in the Parts Express kit is $100. Makes you wonder why so much markup on built product. OK, plenty of rationale could be offered I suppose.

I would sell the Maggies since I have no place else to put them, and I could use the cash towards the new, monitor speakers. I doubt I'd have much trouble selling them in the local area, advertizing on Canuck Audio Mart.

[Ajani]

Interesting that the Be-719 is $2800 MSRP. Don't know the price of the 9980-20BEA tweeter it uses, but its 8948A mid/woofer is $130 at Parts Express, while the 8945A used in the Parts Express kit is $100. Makes you wonder why so much markup on built product. OK, plenty of rationale could be offered I suppose.

I costed a pair of Emerald Physics Speakers not too long ago (based on the drivers and active crossover they use) and realize I could put together my own version for way under $1K. The versions I could recreate sell for $3K and $5K... However I don't take into account labour nor do I factor in that there is significant difference in the baffle they use versus the basic MDF I would be using... There own has some serious metal backing that I would not use, so I have no idea how much that might jack up the cost...

http://www.underwoodhifi.com/pix/retail/cs3.jpg

I also ignored the cost of a nice finish: For fun I've played around with the custom finish options on Axiom Audio's website: you can more than double the price of some of their speakers just by opting for real wood veneer...

With all that said, I suspect some of the largest areas where DIYers save is on labour and the ability to use much cheaper enclosures and finishes...

[Ajani]

If you're still considering actives, I forgot to mention the Quad 12L Active (a bit long in the tooth but going for a great price from Underwood HiFi):

$796 (retail $1649)

http://pic6.audiogon.com/i/s/f/1219457910.jpg
Quad 12L Active monitors For Sale | AudiogoN (http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1327975833&/Quad-12L-Active-monitors-New-C)

I've been tempted by these actives for the last few years, especially considering that at $796, they sell for less than the passive 12L2 monitors...

[blackraven]

Bill, have you totally ruled out Tower speakers? No need for stands.

These Salk Song Bird's are a great buy-

SongBird - specifications (http://www.salksound.com/songbird%20specifications.htm)

[Feanor]

Bill, have you totally ruled out Tower speakers? No need for stands.

These Salk Song Bird's are a great buy-

SongBird - specifications (http://www.salksound.com/songbird%20specifications.htm)
I must say, those are appealing.

[JoeE SP9]

I'm with E-Stat on this. Use a couple of unobtrusive pieces of thread or whatever to mark their optimum positions and move them against the wall when not in use or for background music.

[StevenSurprenant]

There's also the Magnepan MC1's or the MMC 2's that hang on the wall. Throw a sub in the mix and it's decent.

I might add that mounting theses speakers on the side walls, away from the front wall allows maggies to do what they do best (create a huge soundstage, but that ability depends on your room dimensions. I did this at my girlfriends house with the MMGW's and they sound impressive.

[Feanor]

I'm still not sure I'm going to give up my Maggies for a more compact, monitor or floorstanding pair, but if I do, a strong option is to go for a kit speaker.

My observation is that you can save a fair bit of cash going with a kit, even on with cabinets included and even more if you build your own cabinets. Why do you save money? Well you have to provide some sweat equity of course, but also I suspect, you don't pay for so much brand advertizing and some markups in the retail chain. Or maybe it's just the brand mystique you're not paying for.

By the way, it doesn't seem to be much or any more expensive to by a parts kit than to by separate components based on a speaker design & specification. This is another valid option, though.

Granted, choosing the right kit is not so easy because you rarely get to hear the speaker before you invest. The other thing is that speaker from kit could be difficult to sell, (possible excepting if you're an ace cabinet builder). However with a little research you can select a kit from a reputable designer and be just as assured of a good speaker as going by typical reviews of a finished, brand product.

Having done some of this sort of research, I'm tempted by the Zaph | Audio "ZRT" design available with or without cabinets from Madisound. Included are the high-quality, highly reputed ScanSpeak Revelator 18W/8531G (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-6-7-woofers/scanspeak-revelator-18w/8531g-7-mid-woofer-8-ohm/) mid/bass andD3004/6600 (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/soft-dome-tweeters/scanspeak-illuminator-d3004/6600-aircirc-tweeter-textile-dome/) “AirCirc” tweeter. See at Madisound HERE (http://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/2-way-speaker-kits/zaph%7Caudio-zrt-2-way-revelator-tower-parts-only-pair/). Check out the designer's description and advice HERE (http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT.html). I'm a very confident that this kit would deliver the goods big time. Making my own cabinets, I could keep the price within my $1200 budget, vs. a finished, commercial product in the $3500+ range.

http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZRT-system-2.jpg

[Poultrygeist]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.

[Ajani]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.

I don't think that would solve his WAF problem.

[Feanor]

Bill,

Since you like the open airy sound of dipoles why not build some simple OB's? My Tang Band/Alpha H-frames can be built for $700 and sound far better than box speakers. You could sell the maggies and sub for more than that.
Poultry, yep, I do like the dipoles. But two things: (1) I'm skeptical that the TB OBs would sound better than the Maggies, and in any case (2) they wouldn't address the WAF factor.

[RGA]

Feanor the only disadvantage is you can't audition the kit first. Unless you can it's not necessarily wise to assume that "woofer and tweeter" costs this much so it must be better than "all" finished products at X price.

Most people know there is a 10-1 retail to manufacturer cost ratio in this business (that applies to kits). But a manufacturer is buying hundreds or more drivers and has a long standing relationship with driver makers. A guy buying a one of for himself is paying full retail.

I have heard a number of kit speakers - I haven't yet felt they beat manufactured speakers 2-3 times the price and in some cases they haven't beat manufactured speaker for considerably less money. I heard a famous kit speaker using Scanspeak drivers and a fancy tweeter for $1800 that doesn't sound anywhere remotely as good as the TR-5 from Roksan - a manufactured speaker that also has higher shipping costs. Not saying it never happens but I just would not make the assumption.

Magnepan should be fine for WAF. Just put a little marker on the floor - when done listening shove them out of the way.

The HAF matters in the marriage too - and the box sound you probably didn't like in the first place which is why you went to panels. IMO it costs more for a Boxed speaker to get out of the way of itself. HE speakers tend to a better job of getting the box out of the way - they generally sound a little more forward and nimbler on transients. The trick then is to try and find one that isn't shouty or honky like many of the budget horn speakers tend to be.

[Feanor]

Feanor the only disadvantage is you can't audition the kit first. Unless you can it's not necessarily wise to assume that "woofer and tweeter" costs this much so it must be better than "all" finished products at X price.
...
I have heard a number of kit speakers - I haven't yet felt they beat manufactured speakers 2-3 times the price and in some cases they haven't beat manufactured speaker for considerably less money. I heard a famous kit speaker using Scanspeak drivers and a fancy tweeter for $1800 that doesn't sound anywhere remotely as good as the TR-5 from Roksan - a manufactured speaker that also has higher shipping costs. Not saying it never happens but I just would not make the assumption.
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I wouldn't say I'm making all lot of assumptions. The example I gave is a thoroughly designed speaker and ought to deliver the potential of the drivers.

Bear in mind that speaker design isn't a "black art" anymore, (though vendors would have you belief it). It's science -- and not even rocket science. Not that I'm trivializing the process: I've got Bass Box Pro and X-Over Pro but I don't presume that I could equal the results of a really compontent designer -- this is why I would buy a kit or build from a tested design.

If I were to spend a grand on a kit and "only" got the equivalent of $1000 manufactured speakers, I wouldn't complain. If I got more, great. And I can guarantee there are NO manufactured speakers selling for a grand with the equivalent of the ScanSpeak drivers.

[BadAssJazz]

Definitely anxious to see what you decide. Seems like lots of folks are looking for monitors these days. On this and other forums.

[Poultrygeist]

The OB Tang Band W8-1808 over H-frame Alphas have a 17X17X17 foot print. The top inverted T portion adds another 19 inches which for a total of 3 ft is shorter than most floor standers. There may be midget Maggies that small but I haven't seen one. My Zu's dwarfed these OB's.

To get the quality of the exotic Tang Band neodymium driver in a commercially made speaker you'd have to spend upwards of 5 figures. I wish I still had the link for a bass reflex commercial model using this same Tang Band driver and priced at $20,000.

[cackalacky]

I've loved my Magneplanar MG 1.6QR's for several years now but there is a problem: they have to reside in the living room. That room is the only room adequately dimensiones and laid out to accomodate them, but it's also the formal area for receiving quests. Even so, my wife is very tolerant of the appearance of the MG 1.6's, (bless her heart), but not so much the space they hog, i.e. the 3' wall clearance.

What I'm considering, (I think), is a pair of 2-way, probably stand-mount speakers that can be placed within 1' of the wall and cost under $1200. For sound I prefer neutrality, clean detail, and precise imaging. With these speakers I intend to continue to use my passive preamp and my very neutral & transparent class D amp -- although I would considered active speakers too.

Folks, I need you help because I've been disregarding the state of the market for the type of speakers I've described" Your advice and suggestions, please! :14:

Show some spine and move up to the 20.7s. :biggrin5:

[Feanor]

Show some spine and move up to the 20.7s. :biggrin5:
:biggrin5: I'd need a bigger living room to accommodate the 20.7's -- and my wife wouldn't object to that, I'm sure.

Actually, my wife is really quite tolerant of the 1.6's

[Poultrygeist]

WAF? These are small and female.


The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs (http://www.frugal-horn.com/)

[Feanor]

WAF? These are small and female.

The Frugal-Horns Site -- High Performance, Low Cost DIY Horn Designs (http://www.frugal-horn.com/)
They are pretty small at about 30.5 x 7 x 15.6 inches but I'm not quite sure how they're "female". :14:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/FH-Mk3-tn.jpg

[RGA]

Feanor

What about Martin Logan - they've gotten better with driver integration and they're still a panel. But they look sexy - maybe there is a middle ground with the wife. The prices have come down as well now that they're in the big box chains. Those big box chains often put the screws to the manufacturers to lower prices to increase sales. Best Buy was recently ranked as a top 10 company to watch for possibly going bankrupt in 2012. Their downfall could be your advantage because if it should go under (not going to miss them) then they may start dropping speakers prices for 50% off type of thing. They might still be over budget but I would watch for such deals - you never know. I have not heard the lower lines so I don't know if you'd like the sound but the Summit X I heard was mushc more integrated than their older top of the line stuff.

The problem I think you're going to have is cheap boxes can't get away from their box sound. Even if you go with a kit - the cabinets won't be good enough since they're all about deadening the sound - but that only works if you completely deaden it - but the logic is faulty because the energy is stored in the cabinet to bounce around and is delayed from leaving. There is a reason why folks like the OB and single driver and panel loudspeaker - IMO it is because of the speakers that believe in the dead box approach - but the box can't control what is deadened so it throws the blanket over the whole thing. That is why they sound shut in and "dead" and boxy. It's similar to noise reduction and why people liked the Nakamichi Decks with no dolby noise reduction - sure it takes some noise away but it also takes some of the music along with it. Removing the hiss was also removing the Baby out with the bathwater.

The dead box approach to me runs directly counter to Panel and OB speakers (and yes my speakers too) because the idea is to not have sound energy (music) trapped in the damn cabinet when it should be hitting your ears.

The sealed box has a faster sound, OB has a faster sound and not stored energy - panels ditto. To me the Kits you end up with may be good value for the dollar in terms of I spend $400 and it sounds like a manufacturerd speaker at $1200 but that isn't saying a whole lot and in all likelyhood you'll hate compared to the Maggies.

I would print off about 20 loudspeaker pictures - ones you're interest in in terms of sound and appearance and show them to her - ask her which ones she could live with the looks of.

I brought up ML simply because they're smaller and they're see through so while they're panels they're a little more home decor friendly. But personally I like the 1.7 a lot more than the double the price ML's of years past like the Aerius i which was a gutless wonder at $3k Cad back in the day (though that was when the dollar was .60 against the U.S.).

For $999 I would also add Wharfedale - you might be surprised how good their little floorstanders are - they don't take up much space and they sound surprising clean and unboxy. And they should have someone somewhere near you selling them.

I'd also add the AZ Two - if you can get past the big hole in the back of the speaker - it's a quasi horn loaded transmission line speaker but it is a must for corners which you said you can't use - but to me when it comes to home decor - not having the speakers take up a third of the living space makes the room seem a lot bigger which is an enhancement right away.

But to me if it was my money under $2k it would be 1.7 or AZ Two/Three, Roksan (this really does a wonderful job of integration and not sounding thick and sludgy), or OB speakers that Poutlrygeist suggests and single drivers - it's just two bad that good sound is usually butt fraking ugly.

[Feanor]

Thanks for your comments, RGA.

First, I have to reiterate that my wife isn't putting me under a lot of preassure; it's more that I just fell a little guilty about it. The space consideration puts any sort of dipole out of question as far as I can see. In any case my budget remains about $1200.

However successful AN might be with "live" boxes, IMO it is, in practical terms for amateur, a difficult thing to achieve -- you've said as much yourself. On the other hand it's feasible to build a sufficiently "dead" box with simple measures.

Seal boxes are more tolerate of imperfect design than vented boxes. Sealed boxes are smaller They have higher initial roll-off (F3) than vented but, if you want to, you can easily expend their response with equalization.. Also, they are more amenable to near-wall (or corner) placement. It's likely that if I go for a kit or work from a desing, that I will used a sealed box.

[Poultrygeist]

They are pretty small at about 30.5 x 7 x 15.6 inches but I'm not quite sure how they're "female". :14:

http://homepage.mac.com/tlinespeakers/FH/images/FH-Mk3-tn.jpg

Look at that shapely backside