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RoyY51
11-13-2011, 08:13 PM
Michael Fremer of Stereophile just wrote, in describing the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.11 power amplifier: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

Any thoughts?

JohnMichael
11-13-2011, 08:26 PM
Can you provide a link for the source of that quote? I would like to read it in the context of the article or review. While I have not yet spent that much on a component it would be within reach. Also Michael writes for a high end magazine so in that context it would seem affordable.

Ajani
11-13-2011, 09:16 PM
@ John - That review is in the current issue of Stereophile, so it's not online yet...

@ Roy - I don't think anyone in our hobby should be surprised by an amp costing $4,200... Even if you'd never pay more than $500 for an amp (regardless of what you can afford), $4,200 is not expensive by "audiophile" standards...

That's like being into wine tasting and being shocked by a $50 bottle of wine... Even if you only buy $5 wines, you know $50 isn't an expensive wine (by wine tasting standards)...

RGA
11-14-2011, 01:25 AM
I doubt John was implying that you need to spend a lot to get good sound - one of his very favorite speakers is only $7,500 and while that too is expensive IMO it is not expensive by audiophile hobby standards.

Feanor
11-14-2011, 05:23 AM
Michael Fremer of Stereophile just wrote, in describing the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.11 power amplifier: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

Any thoughts?
As others have said, $4200 isn't expensive by high-end audiophile standards; so far Fremer is right.

However he steps over the line when he says "you're in the wrong hobby" if you can't or won't pop $4k on an amp. There plenty of opportunities to enjoy the hobby with much cheaper equipment. That is, ready-made equipment and DIY extends the choices even further. Great sound can be had for relatively low cost. For certain you can have a great sounding, complete system for under $4200. More $$ will get you better, but diminishing returns is in play. Value is in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Fremer's rather typical attitude PO's a lot of people about Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and various other high-end mags. Whose egos are they stroking? Their snob readers? Or their own?

RoyY51
11-14-2011, 05:36 AM
@ John - That review is in the current issue of Stereophile, so it's not online yet...

@ Roy - I don't think anyone in our hobby should be surprised by an amp costing $4,200... Even if you'd never pay more than $500 for an amp (regardless of what you can afford), $4,200 is not expensive by "audiophile" standards...

That's like being into wine tasting and being shocked by a $50 bottle of wine... Even if you only buy $5 wines, you know $50 isn't an expensive wine (by wine tasting standards)...

I'm not surprised by an amp that costs $4200. I AM surprised by the inference that, unless I'm willing to shell out thousands per component, I am "in the wrong hobby" and not worthy of a seat at the Adult Table. This would seem to be a great way to alienate an already declining readership, as well as discouraging the average listener from even trying to join the club.

RGA
11-14-2011, 05:44 AM
Ooops - For some reason I mixed up Fremer with John Marks - If John Marks had said it I stand by my previous comments.

Michael Fremer is another matter entirely.

StevenSurprenant
11-14-2011, 08:42 AM
Like most people here I believed that spending huge sums of cash was the way to achieve the best sound. After building my own speakers I realized that this "best" sound could be had for pennies on the dollar with a little sweat equity. More importantly, this opened my mind to see things from the parts cost perspective.

There is no denying that some of this "very" expensive gear is very good, but most of it's cost is profit for the manufacturer and the middle man. That's understandable and these people need to live too.

We talk about snake oil and paying exorbitant amounts of money for advertising and "the name", but it's when you open the box and see what's inside, that's when you realize how much of what you've paid is pure profit.

The point is that people that design and sell this expensive gear do so because there is a market for people with high incomes who are willing to pay big bucks for a very small increment in sound or cosmetics.

When it comes to the most expensive gear on the market, snake oil is alive and well. They talk of new topologies and new circuitry that enhances the sound, but while they may be technically correct, does it mean that we can hear it?

Every year, most manufacturers come out with their new model line. The only reason they do this is to spur new sales. To me, this indicates that their previous model is flawed somehow and that makes me wonder what flaws their new models have. I can understand this change when it comes to digital circuitry when new formats or methods of data transmission has changed, but amplification and speaker technologies have changed very little over the years, except in the case of digital amplification which is relatively new.

I'm just jabbering, but in the end, this stuff that Stereophile pushes is way over priced for what you are getting. I've listened to a $20,000, Class "A" rated" amplifier that didn't sound as good as much lower priced amps (in the systems they were in).

The bottom line is that there is no set amount of money that determines the quality of audio you get for your dollar. To set a dollar amount on the cost of your gear is ludicrous.

I used to love Stereophile magazine, but quit my subscription when I realized that the products they were reviewing were only for the rich and famous and were more of a status symbol than a realistic increase in audio quality. I remember a CD player that went for $30,000. Back then, that was the price of a luxury car. Now come on, what justification can they make for that price?

Well, for what's it worth, that's my opinion.

RoyY51
11-14-2011, 09:52 AM
As others have said, $4200 isn't expensive by high-end audiophile standards; so far Fremer is right.

However he steps over the line when he says "you're in the wrong hobby" if you can't or won't pop $4k on an amp. There plenty of opportunities to enjoy the hobby with much cheaper equipment. That is, ready-made equipment and DIY extends the choices even further. Great sound can be had for relatively low cost. For certain you can have a great sounding, complete system for under $4200. More $$ will get you better, but diminishing returns is in play. Value is in the eye of the beholder, of course.

Fremer's rather typical attitude PO's a lot of people about Stereophile, The Absolute Sound, and various other high-end mags. Whose egos are they stroking? Their snob readers? Or their own?

I couldn't agree more. We of the Joe Six-Pack persuasion already view most "audiophiles" as people with too much money and too little sense. To this, some will now be tempted to add: "elitist snobs"...if they don't already hold that opinion.

Poultrygeist
11-14-2011, 10:15 AM
Good post Steven.

Fremer needs to attend DIY Atlanta. It might change his perception that money spent is related to high quality sound.

Hyfi
11-14-2011, 10:19 AM
High End = High Income

Most of us dabble in Mid End and some at Entry Level High End. Very few on this board actually have High End systems. A $4K amp is nothing compared to the VAC top stereo amp at $39,900. High End Audio is for those who have the cash to blow, don't care that you can get similar cheaper and have no interest in DIY. They have MONEY. People with money do not shop at Wal-Mart or K-Mart even if they can get the same product cheaper because they don't want to admit you can.

Audio is no different than Watches, Cars, Suits, or anything you can think of. A $50 watch tells the same time as a $20k Rolex but a person with money won't be caught dead wearing the cheaper one.

I can remember when I was buying my Hafler gear back in the day. I would watch guys come into Soundex and drop $20k on a pc of gear. The next week they would be trading it in for $15k and buying something different for $30k.

Fremer's comment's don't really apply to most of us hear because A- we don't have that kind of cash, and B- we don't really have what they consider High End systems at Stereophile.

I stopped getting Stereophile many years ago for similar reasons. No real world gear reviewed and only cator to the people with big bucks to toss around.

I take no offense to the comments because they don't apply to me. My hobby is Audio, not High End Audio.

Ajani
11-14-2011, 10:56 AM
I'm not surprised by an amp that costs $4200. I AM surprised by the inference that, unless I'm willing to shell out thousands per component, I am "in the wrong hobby" and not worthy of a seat at the Adult Table. This would seem to be a great way to alienate an already declining readership, as well as discouraging the average listener from even trying to join the club.


I see your point. But even then I'm not surprised...

Snobbery is a part of any hobby involving "luxury goods"... I was thinking about purchasing a Movado Museum Watch a few months ago and checked out a few reviews online, only to see the exact same kind of snobbery that's on audio sites - The Movado was being ripped for basically being "mass market"... If you buy a Honda Accord, the guys with BMW 5s will probably look down on you... On this forum I've had to file numerous complaints to the mods when a member sent me messages accusing me of being "poor and stupid" because I own an Emotiva XPA-2 amp (he owns a Mark Levinson, of course)... So snobbery is just standard in the hobby...

Snobbery is not going anywhere... So my belief is just to focus on getting the best equipment, for the amount you are willing to spend, and ignore the snobs...

Ajani
11-14-2011, 10:58 AM
High End = High Income

Most of us dabble in Mid End and some at Entry Level High End. Very few on this board actually have High End systems. A $4K amp is nothing compared to the VAC top stereo amp at $39,900. High End Audio is for those who have the cash to blow, don't care that you can get similar cheaper and have no interest in DIY. They have MONEY. People with money do not shop at Wal-Mart or K-Mart even if they can get the same product cheaper because they don't want to admit you can.

Audio is no different than Watches, Cars, Suits, or anything you can think of. A $50 watch tells the same time as a $20k Rolex but a person with money won't be caught dead wearing the cheaper one.

I can remember when I was buying my Hafler gear back in the day. I would watch guys come into Soundex and drop $20k on a pc of gear. The next week they would be trading it in for $15k and buying something different for $30k.

Fremer's comment's don't really apply to most of us hear because A- we don't have that kind of cash, and B- we don't really have what they consider High End systems at Stereophile.

I stopped getting Stereophile many years ago for similar reasons. No real world gear reviewed and only cator to the people with big bucks to toss around.

I take no offense to the comments because they don't apply to me. My hobby is Audio, not High End Audio.

I like to refer to High End Audio as Luxury Audio... Yes there are improvements - some in sound, others just in build quality and cosmetics, but the price you pay is extreme - so only the individual can determine whether a product is "worth" the money...

Hyfi
11-14-2011, 11:31 AM
I like to refer to High End Audio as Luxury Audio... Yes there are improvements - some in sound, others just in build quality and cosmetics, but the price you pay is extreme - so only the individual can determine whether a product is "worth" the money...

Correct. And in most cases, only those with the money to blow will label it Worth The Money. Personally, to me, a $40K amp is not 38 times better than a $2K amp. Better, for sure. Looks, for sure. Build quality, for sure but the sound will not be 38 times better so to someone that does not have cash falling out of their pockets, it will not be worth it. To those with money like Fremer, maybe to them it is, but they could really just be fooling themselves.

Jack in Wilmington
11-14-2011, 12:12 PM
I read the letters to the editor every month from readers complaining that Stereophile covers too much high end gear. I figured it was mainly the readers with low end gear that were doing the complaining. Now it turns out that some of the posters here are of that opinion. I looked at Nov. Stereophile to see the prices of the reviewed gear. Here is the gear in a nut shell.

1. Amtrans Passive Controler $2950
2. Epos Epic 2 Speakers $ 695
3. Haniwa Phono Pre $5000
4. Kimber Tonik Cables $ 80
5. Nordost Flatline Cables $ 157
6. Energy Connoisseur $ 269
7. Emotiva Power Amp $ 899
8. Resolution Audio CD/DAC $6000
9. Simaudio CD Player $8000
10. Leben Int Amp $3395
11. Leben Phono Pre $2695
12. Luxman Int Amp $5990
13. Quad Int. Amp $5999

There are some lower priced items that would fit in all our budgets and some of the others that really sound interesting could be had in a year on Audiogon for much less. That's why I continue to read Stereophile. That and the fact that the guys at my HiFi shop read it while they're waiting for a customer and you guys that have worked in that business know what I mean. It gives us something to talk about when I stop by.

Ajani
11-14-2011, 12:27 PM
I read the letters to the editor every month from readers complaining that Stereophile covers too much high end gear. I figured it was mainly the readers with low end gear that were doing the complaining. Now it turns out that some of the posters here are of that opinion. I looked at Nov. Stereophile to see the prices of the reviewed gear. Here is the gear in a nut shell.

1. Amtrans Passive Controler $2950
2. Epos Epic 2 Speakers $ 695
3. Haniwa Phono Pre $5000
4. Kimber Tonik Cables $ 80
5. Nordost Flatline Cables $ 157
6. Energy Connoisseur $ 269
7. Emotiva Power Amp $ 899
8. Resolution Audio CD/DAC $6000
9. Simaudio CD Player $8000
10. Leben Int Amp $3395
11. Leben Phono Pre $2695
12. Luxman Int Amp $5990
13. Quad Int. Amp $5999

There are some lower priced items that would fit in all our budgets and some of the others that really sound interesting could be had in a year on Audiogon for much less. That's why I continue to read Stereophile. That and the fact that the guys at my HiFi shop read it while they're waiting for a customer and you guys that have worked in that business know what I mean. It gives us something to talk about when I stop by.

You do need to keep in mind that Stereophile has made a far more conscious effort in recent years to review more "affordable" gear... A few years back, the trend towards reviewing the luxurious and exotic was really spiraling out of control... Even the decision to have Stephen Mejas review inexpensive gear was likely part of the strategy to bring things back under control.

JohnMichael
11-14-2011, 12:42 PM
Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.



Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.

Jack in Wilmington
11-14-2011, 12:52 PM
You do need to keep in mind that Stereophile has made a far more conscious effort in recent years to review more "affordable" gear... A few years back, the trend towards reviewing the luxurious and exotic was really spiraling out of control... Even the decision to have Stephen Mejas review inexpensive gear was likely part of the strategy to bring things back under control.

Oh Yea and I appreciate it. I really enjoy Stephen column. It has a little bit of human interest mixed with his review.

Poultrygeist
11-14-2011, 04:03 PM
I use the term DIY losely to include those small one man cottage industry types who hand build their products in basements and garages not for just a side income but for the sheer joy of their craft. Their products are rarely reviewed in audiophile publications and such individuals are far from the mainstream of high end audio yet their products are of the highest order. My friend in Hendersonville, NC builds the mighty GM70 which sells for $35,000 and he's probably lucky to build and sell one a year. I know he's sold a few to oil sheiks. What customers get with the GM70 is a DIY ugly as a mud fence, 3 chassis ungainly amp that dims your lights while reproducing the "Voice of God".

RoyY51
11-14-2011, 04:28 PM
Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.



Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.

My conclusion is still the same: if Michael Fremer thinks that I'm "in the wrong hobby" because I can't or won't spend $4200 on a single component, then he's not living in the same world as most of us.

If someone more technologically oriented than I were to post a poll asking if $4200 was an "expensive" amount to spend on one component, I think my assumption would be verified.

JohnMichael
11-14-2011, 04:58 PM
I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

In our hobby with some amps costing over $100,000 and he found a $4,200 amp satisfying. Compared to Ultra High End that amp is not expensive. I think it was a backhanded comment that if an audiophile thinks an amp of that quality is expensive wait until they hear the price of the top range amps.

poppachubby
11-14-2011, 05:12 PM
Everyone has their panties in a knot but I didn't feel he was taking a personal jab at anyone. It was simply an expression to get a point across. The double entendre is unintentional and makes me think that people are biased about Fremer before he even opens his yap. I am not defending him, but in this case I think he meant no harm.

Find another hobby...I think he was trying to say, you must accept reality that great audio costs a lot, and generally much more than 5k.

I am with Poultry on this one...full range horns anyone?

RoyY51
11-14-2011, 05:14 PM
I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

In our hobby with some amps costing over $100,000 and he found a $4,200 amp satisfying. Compared to Ultra High End that amp is not expensive. I think it was a backhanded comment that if an audiophile thinks an amp of that quality is expensive wait until they hear the price of the top range amps.

For $4200 he SHOULD have found it satisfying. In my world, it should also wash my car, do my laundry and mow my yard. I do, however, understand the point that you are making.

But he's still an idiot for saying what he did.

Feanor
11-14-2011, 05:31 PM
...
Find another hobby...I think he was trying to say, you must accept reality that great audio costs a lot, and generally much more than 5k.
...
Ah, come on, Chubbs. He said what he said. He either meant it or he shouldn't have said it. Personally I think he meant it, in which case it shows a contempt for people like most of us here.

Ajani
11-14-2011, 06:44 PM
The problem with this discussion is that none of us really know what Fremer was trying to say... Perhaps his words came out wrong or maybe he meant it to be an insult... Based on Fremer's very vocal stance on all things HiFi it could be either... Best bet might be to ask on the Stereophile forums and see if Fremer responds...

But frankly, I don't think it really matters... Fremer is just one reviewer at the mag...

Jack in Wilmington
11-14-2011, 06:49 PM
I'm one that doesn't think that $4200 is expensive for an amp. Sorry Roy, but in the world were there are $100,000 amps, I'm with JM on this one. I think you're just reading too much into what MF said. I'll bet there are some members on this board that have spent more than $4200 on their amps or would have if they had bought them new. If I had the money, $4200 would not be out of the question for the right amp. $100,000 would.

RoyY51
11-14-2011, 07:04 PM
Ah, come on, Chubbs. He said what he said. He either meant it or he shouldn't have said it. Personally I think he meant it, in which case it shows a contempt for people like most of us here.

Thank you, Feanor...I was beginning to think that I was the only one on this forum who understood the implications of Fremer's comment.

If I didn't have to "spread the points around" I would be sending a greenie your way!

Florian
11-15-2011, 12:13 AM
Hello guys,

4200$ is a lot of money, and therefore a lot for an amplifier. Its a lot of money for almost anything.

One aspect which is very often forgotten are the service costs of hifi gear. Buying a old amplifier which used to cost 50K for lets say 16k seems like a good deal to some. But one day you need to have it restored (caps, some resistors, bias settings, load balancing etc...) which is very expensive. I am a prime example, i had my four Krell KRS200 monos serviced just 5 weeks ago for 6115$

So in my opinion its a relative, if you want to and can afford it then do it. 4500$ is not much for an amp if you really want it.

Feanor
11-15-2011, 04:59 AM
The problem with this discussion is that none of us really know what Fremer was trying to say... Perhaps his words came out wrong or maybe he meant it to be an insult... Based on Fremer's very vocal stance on all things HiFi it could be either... Best bet might be to ask on the Stereophile forums and see if Fremer responds...

But frankly, I don't think it really matters... Fremer is just one reviewer at the mag...
Hooey: writers at 'Phile and TAS say all the time what a bargain, and how "affordable" this or that $5k component is. They believe this. Fremer just stated it a little more candidly than usual: If you can't afford spend $4000 on a component, then FO.

Florian: if my wife, daughter, and I gave up eatting for six months, why yes, I could bUy myself a $4200 amp; (otherwise not).

Feanor
11-15-2011, 05:08 AM
Conclusions
Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.

Reading the conclusion I did not have the same reaction. I am curious what others think when they read the conclusion.
What?!? My Class D Audio SDS-258 sounds great, is well made in American, cost <$600 -- and damn! it has blue LEDs and amber ones too. (BTW, adding the LEDs in my build cost me about $2.)

Florian
11-15-2011, 05:09 AM
Hi Bill, in this case it is not wise for you to buy an amplifier in that price category. My girlfriend and i have no kids and besides the house and cars no fix payments. Like i said it depends on the situation and if you want it or not. I dont think that this audio hobby (in that price category) should be for everyone, its like any other interest. It depends on your situation and interest.

Cheers

Feanor
11-15-2011, 05:16 AM
Hi Bill, in this case it is not wise for you to buy an amplifier in that price category. My girlfriend and i have no kids and besides the house and cars no fix payments. Like i said it depends on the situation and if you want it or not. I dont think that this audio hobby (in that price category) should be for everyone, its like any other interest. It depends on your situation and interest.

Cheers
Thanks, Flo. You are both perceptive and sympathetic.

If only Fremer had added the "in that price category" qualification, we wouldn't be discussing it.

Hyfi
11-15-2011, 05:16 AM
I'm one that doesn't think that $4200 is expensive for an amp. Sorry Roy, but in the world were there are $100,000 amps, I'm with JM on this one. I think you're just reading too much into what MF said. I'll bet there are some members on this board that have spent more than $4200 on their amps or would have if they had bought them new. If I had the money, $4200 would not be out of the question for the right amp. $100,000 would.

I am also with you, Jack. Although my current setup includes components that cost close to $4500 each, pre, amp, speakers, and another $2k in cables, I did not pay that much for them. I can say that the performance is very good compared to most $1k items.

I guess if I chose to use some of my retirement money, I could actually buy higher price gear. I choose not to.

My $1200 Stratos sounds real good and does compete with a lot of higher priced SS amps, but the Counterpoint is way more refined, detailed and more. The CP fell into my hands long after I bought the Stratos.

I did choose to spend $2500 13 years ago for a pair of Dynaudio speakers. That was a lot of money for my budget but I always wanted a pair, knew the performance and sound well, and knew I would get many years of pleasure out of them.

If I had to do it all over again or downsize, I would probably focus in on an integrated in the $5K range for all the same reasons I like the Counterpoint and VAC more than the Stratos and my olde long gone Sound Valves pre.

Like Jack said, in a realm of 100k amps, 180k speakers, 20k DACs or CDPlayers, let alone the cabling suggested for these types of components, $4200 for 20 years of glorious music in ones home is not over the top.

Has everyone saying it is actually sat down and listenedd to some real High End systems for any length of time?

Like I said in my first response, maybe the gear is not 50x better, but if you're a millionaire you would do it just to say you did.

StevenSurprenant
11-15-2011, 05:24 AM
Oh Yea and I appreciate it. I really enjoy Stephen column. It has a little bit of human interest mixed with his review.

Jack, I think I was at your shop back in the 90's. Did you have a pair of Avalon (I think) for about $70,000 running on spectral gear? Did you also carry Joesph Audio speakers? Wilmington Delaware?


I am quoting MF again "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something.

$4,200 is doable if it really is as good as he says. I've spent about that much before, and while the amp was good, there was no magic in my system, no synergy I suppose.


Everyone has their panties in a knot but I didn't feel he was taking a personal jab at anyone. It was simply an expression to get a point across.

No doubt! I didn't take offense at him. My posts were aimed more at the high cost high end where, for the average person, the prices are way out of context with what you get for your money. If I had a great deal of disposable cash, the bling inherent in high priced gear would be acceptable. You know, we could be discussing cars, or even homes. I've seen people spend $40,000 on a car that is only slightly better (in some ways) than a $20,000 car and think the extra $20,000 is justified, but would think spending $10,000 on an audio system is purely a waste of money.

I have to tell you that I loved Stereophile magazine and I think it's a great mag. Every month it came, I dropped everything I was doing and read it from cover to cover, including all the ads. In fact, that is how I found all the stores that I visited. It was a dream catalog and who doesn't like to dream?

I will add this... Stereophile is a glamour magazine and and as such cannot be taken seriously by mortal men. There is no point for the average person to read it as a guide toward their quest of audio nirvana. As for thinking they are uppity about their craft, it matters not, because it's an illusion that they peddle, nothing less and nothing more.
_________________________

As for Fremers comment, "If that's your idea of "expensive" , well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."...

I'm not sure what he was implying, but I think what he is saying is that it is too good to pass up. He just used a poor choice of words. I'm an optimist...

Poultrygeist
11-15-2011, 06:19 AM
I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

Hyfi
11-15-2011, 06:27 AM
But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

Unfortunately for this hobby, and for a lot of people with money, it is.

That said, everyone in this thread knows that you can get very good performance for a lot less.

I don't care how much R&D goes into a $180K pair of speakers, they will not sound 179x better than a $1k pair. Better, most likely but in no way worth the cost, unless you have it to blow and just want them.

I guess the big problem is that mags like Stereophile have skewed the playing field because although they have favorably reviewed some lesser costing gear as of late, they still cater to outrageously priced items that do not exponentially perform better than lesser costing gear.

Jack in Wilmington
11-15-2011, 06:41 AM
Sometimes I read the articles, even if the component that the article is about is something that I'm not interested in purchasing, just to see what associated music the reviewer used. I also like to read a review that may not get a glowing recommendation, just to read the manufacturers comments in the back. Especially if it's Roy Hall.

StevenSurprenant
11-15-2011, 07:04 AM
I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.

High end is a subjective term and there is no clear distinction that classifies the different levels of audio. I have a metric that serves me well, and that is, if I hear a system and I immediately focus on the performance being presented, while at the same time, I am consciously unaware of the gear producing it, that to me is high end. Cost or brand is not an issue.

Hyfi
11-15-2011, 07:28 AM
Sometimes I read the articles, even if the component that the article is about is something that I'm not interested in purchasing, just to see what associated music the reviewer used. I also like to read a review that may not get a glowing recommendation, just to read the manufacturers comments in the back. Especially if it's Roy Hall.

The whole 10 years I read Stereophile I may have seen 1 or 2 disks used that I actually own. For the majority, they never seemed to use any genre that I listen to.

Feanor
11-15-2011, 08:10 AM
I believe most people on this forum would classify Meridian speakers as high end. My son-in-law owns a pair with built in amp and a Meridian cd player that cost around $30k new. I'd bet money that any member here who heard the Meridians compared to my home brew OBs and Bottlehead kit amp would say my set up sounds way better. Folks it's really not even close. So if my $1,000 DIY system stomps a $30,000 system then the 30k system is not really high end afterall or just maybe my cheapo gear is high end as well. But my point is that cost alone is not the deciding factor that defines high end.
Yep, there are a couple of things here.

First, can you be into the audiophile hobbly on the cheap, (i.e. <$4k per component)? Hell, yes.

Second, do less expensive systems, (i.e. components <$4k), beat much more expensive systems? Hell, yes. As for you specific example, your OB/Bottlehead vs. Meridians, I don't know since I've heard neither.

Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and a few other aspirants have become Robb Reports (http://robbreport.com/) targeting the audiophile subniche of luxury goods. With that insight we can better understand the carelessly contemptuous attitude their writes have towards the majority of sound enthusiasts.

Jack in Wilmington
11-15-2011, 08:51 AM
The whole 10 years I read Stereophile I may have seen 1 or 2 disks used that I actually own. For the majority, they never seemed to use any genre that I listen to.

I've bought a few also, some with not so steller results. Some are out of print, and some I just can't find. Like the Nov. issue, in the review section in the back, they review a jazz cd titled Constellation. I can't find it anywhere. I recently bought a box set of Beethoven Piano Concertos that was recommended and they were outstanding.

Ajani
11-15-2011, 09:39 AM
Stereophile, Absolute Sound, and a few other aspirants have become Robb Reports (http://robbreport.com/) targeting the audiophile subniche of luxury goods. With that insight we can better understand the carelessly contemptuous attitude their writes have towards the majority of sound enthusiasts.

I certainly agree that many mags are catering to the lifestyles of the rich and famous crowd... But are you sure you're not taking it all a little too personally? I'm still not sure that Fremer's comments were meant to be a big middle finger to those of us unwilling or unable to drop $4K on a component...

Being obsessed with luxury gear doesn't make you a snob, being a condescending dbag about it does... So I'm not sure all these writers have crossed that line (though clearly some have)...

Feanor
11-15-2011, 10:12 AM
I certainly agree that many mags are catering to the lifestyles of the rich and famous crowd... But are you sure you're not taking it all a little too personally? I'm still not sure that Fremer's comments were meant to be a big middle finger to those of us unwilling or unable to drop $4K on a component...

Being obsessed with luxury gear doesn't make you a snob, being a condescending dbag about it does... So I'm not sure all these writers have crossed that line (though clearly some have)...
Could be that Fremer doesn't think of himself as a condescending douche ... in the same way that Herman Cain maybe doesn't think of himself as having sexually harrassed women, or Henry Paulson doesn't think of himself as having bnggered the middle class to save the big banks.

RGA
11-15-2011, 09:06 PM
This is what I read "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something."

To me he is saying this amp hangs in with very expensive amps and doesn't leaving him desiring for more expensive amps - or you could read - "as good as mega-buck amps he likes."

My experience is the best of the best costs large sums of money that cheap stuff doesn't approach.

Yesterday I went to a very nice shop selling several systems - One system (All Roksan from cartridge wires turntable to amp, CD player and speakers was about $8,000) and it sounded really good - I listened to Eva Cassidy jazz master CD and some Beethoven piano works. For the money it sounded very good. It sounded good period and if you didn't audition the rig in the next room where the cables were more expensive than the entire Roksan system you'd be hard pressed to really find fault with it.

The problem is that the next room while ludicrously expensive with ~$250,000 system is wholly and entirely on another level.

There is simply no way anyone with decent hearing (and even if you're 90% deaf) could walk out of the two rooms and draw any other conclusion. The notion of "multiple times" better is not the issue. It doesn't have to be multiple times better - it either does it for you or it doesn't. And while it would be great to bury my head in the sand and read a spec sheet on the Roksan gear and conclude well it's better because it measures as good if not better but it's still just pretending - justification upon justification.

I am much closer to the Roksan budget than the other system - but in direct comparison the Roksan is a pile of crud. If you don't directly compare - the Roksan is a fraking musically nice system - good treble sparkle - not bright - decent enough bass from the floorstanders - no irritating colourations, good timing speed articulation - a complete system that together is better than the sum of their parts. I would HIGHLY and strongly recommend that system to anyone in the budget or even several thousand above that budget. tremendous sound. But compared to the other system - it's missing just so much - and if you have the coin the Roksan just doesn't cut it.

Ajani
11-15-2011, 10:02 PM
This is what I read "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something."

To me he is saying this amp hangs in with very expensive amps and doesn't leaving him desiring for more expensive amps - or you could read - "as good as mega-buck amps he likes."

My experience is the best of the best costs large sums of money that cheap stuff doesn't approach.

Yesterday I went to a very nice shop selling several systems - One system (All Roksan from cartridge wires turntable to amp, CD player and speakers was about $8,000) and it sounded really good - I listened to Eva Cassidy jazz master CD and some Beethoven piano works. For the money it sounded very good. It sounded good period and if you didn't audition the rig in the next room where the cables were more expensive than the entire Roksan system you'd be hard pressed to really find fault with it.

The problem is that the next room while ludicrously expensive with ~$250,000 system is wholly and entirely on another level.

There is simply no way anyone with decent hearing (and even if you're 90% deaf) could walk out of the two rooms and draw any other conclusion. The notion of "multiple times" better is not the issue. It doesn't have to be multiple times better - it either does it for you or it doesn't. And while it would be great to bury my head in the sand and read a spec sheet on the Roksan gear and conclude well it's better because it measures as good if not better but it's still just pretending - justification upon justification.

I am much closer to the Roksan budget than the other system - but in direct comparison the Roksan is a pile of crud. If you don't directly compare - the Roksan is a fraking musically nice system - good treble sparkle - not bright - decent enough bass from the floorstanders - no irritating colourations, good timing speed articulation - a complete system that together is better than the sum of their parts. I would HIGHLY and strongly recommend that system to anyone in the budget or even several thousand above that budget. tremendous sound. But compared to the other system - it's missing just so much - and if you have the coin the Roksan just doesn't cut it.

To borrow Stereophile terminology (with my own definition) that's what I'd call a Class B setup - A system that sounds great once you don't directly compare it to something better... That's the kind of setup I aim for... There should be nothing obviously lacking or irritating about the sound... You just enjoy the music and would never realize anything is wrong with what you're hearing, unless you directly compare to something much better...

That kind of system can be accomplished without winning the lottery or filing for bankruptcy...

RGA
11-15-2011, 10:36 PM
Ajani

Agreed - I prefer reviewing gear in this price range because frankly I believe I would get more readers. $100,000k amps are all nice and fine but few people buy them and frankly they SHOULD be terrific. There is no great difficulty in building anything to a high level when budgets are "open."

The trick is doing what the Roksan system does while not spending large sums - take the turntable out of it and it's a $6k system. And I don't much like SS and even I liked it. This is a system (speakers, amp, CD and cables) that does it mostly right and doesn't fatigue the ear and the speakers don't get in the way like many do. Now I didn't throw everything at it but voice and piano - does a good job of that chances are it's on the right track. I will go back again and perhaps ask to review the whole system.

Now if they could get something cheap to sound like system 2 I would be amazed. But the big tube amps always seem to cost a bomb.

Hyfi
11-16-2011, 04:01 AM
This is what I read "When the RM-200 was in the system, I wanted for nothing-and for $4,200, that's something."

To me he is saying this amp hangs in with very expensive amps and doesn't leaving him desiring for more expensive amps - or you could read - "as good as mega-buck amps he likes."

My experience is the best of the best costs large sums of money that cheap stuff doesn't approach.

Yesterday I went to a very nice shop selling several systems - One system (All Roksan from cartridge wires turntable to amp, CD player and speakers was about $8,000) and it sounded really good - I listened to Eva Cassidy jazz master CD and some Beethoven piano works. For the money it sounded very good. It sounded good period and if you didn't audition the rig in the next room where the cables were more expensive than the entire Roksan system you'd be hard pressed to really find fault with it.

The problem is that the next room while ludicrously expensive with ~$250,000 system is wholly and entirely on another level.

There is simply no way anyone with decent hearing (and even if you're 90% deaf) could walk out of the two rooms and draw any other conclusion. The notion of "multiple times" better is not the issue. It doesn't have to be multiple times better - it either does it for you or it doesn't. And while it would be great to bury my head in the sand and read a spec sheet on the Roksan gear and conclude well it's better because it measures as good if not better but it's still just pretending - justification upon justification.



That is what I miss so much about Soundex going out of business. They had 22 sound rooms. 1st floor was all 2 channel and the 2nd floor was 80% HT, along with the "Rocksan" range setups.

Room #1 was always the mega buck setup from Krell, Levinson, Wilson, full Dynaudio Arbiter setup and so on. I used to take a few disks there on Saturdays and just wander around playing my disks.

One of my favorite rooms was BAT with Pro-Ac speakers and usually a high dollar turntable. That room sounded as good or better than some of what they setup in room 1.

But, RGA is right, when you have the chance to walk from an 8K room to a 250K room, you will hear a difference and usually a pretty significant one at that.

One of my old tricks when my system wasn't so pleasing, was to go for a ride in the car with a crappy cassette. When I got back, the stereo sounded fine again....for a while.

Poultrygeist
11-16-2011, 06:47 AM
We've all heard how prohibitively expensive a Ford would be if it were assembled from dealer parts shelves. With ubber high end amps just the opposite is the case.

After a few grand for parts you've reached the point of diminishing returns with amps. There's only so many Black Gates, Mundorf's, or heavy iron that can be crammed into one chassis. The only thing exotic about boutique amps is the price and certainly not the cost/quality of parts or technology.

RGA
11-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Poultrygeist

Unfortunately parts quality matters - the easy way to hear this is to hear two amps with identical designs and tubes but one uses better parts than the other. The differences can be staggering. Turntables are a prime example of this - easy to detect pretty much immediately.

Virtually everything has a 10-1 retail price to manufacturer cost ratio in the high end. Sometimes better at the lower end - though sometimes not. I remember my $300 B&W 302 speakers someone ripped apart and priced at $30. Granted there was no account of labour or R&D and marketing which is all more expensive than the parts.

mlsstl
11-16-2011, 07:29 AM
The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.

Meanwhile, the DIYers feel superior because they possess an understanding and ability to make for themselves what others can't. The bargain hunter or smart shopper feels superior for not getting suckered into buying gear that is often expensive as a result of appearance, hand-crafting or other features that contribute nothing to sound quality. Still others are proud of their ability to focus on the music and hear the composer's or artist's intent regardless of sound quality; they perhaps picture themselves mirroring Beethoven's great mind in mentally imagining perfect music in spite of hearing or playback limitations.

In short, every segment of this (or any other) hobby relishes the approach they are taking. Sometimes the display of superiority is conscious and ostentatious, while it resides more at the subconscious level in others. (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Luvin Da Blues
11-16-2011, 07:36 AM
The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.

Meanwhile, the DIYers feel superior because they possess an understanding and ability to make for themselves what others can't. The bargain hunter or smart shopper feels superior for not getting suckered into buying gear that is often expensive as a result of appearance, hand-crafting or other features that contribute nothing to sound quality. Still others are proud of their ability to focus on the music and hear the composer's or artist's intent regardless of sound quality; they perhaps picture themselves mirroring Beethoven's great mind in mentally imagining perfect music in spite of hearing or playback limitations.

In short, every segment of this (or any other) hobby relishes the approach they are taking. Sometimes the display of superiority is conscious and ostentatious, while it resides more at the subconscious level in others. (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Excellent post, greenies for ya :3:

Ajani
11-16-2011, 08:25 AM
The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.

Meanwhile, the DIYers feel superior because they possess an understanding and ability to make for themselves what others can't. The bargain hunter or smart shopper feels superior for not getting suckered into buying gear that is often expensive as a result of appearance, hand-crafting or other features that contribute nothing to sound quality. Still others are proud of their ability to focus on the music and hear the composer's or artist's intent regardless of sound quality; they perhaps picture themselves mirroring Beethoven's great mind in mentally imagining perfect music in spite of hearing or playback limitations.

In short, every segment of this (or any other) hobby relishes the approach they are taking. Sometimes the display of superiority is conscious and ostentatious, while it resides more at the subconscious level in others. (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)

Excellent Point! More greenies for you...

Human nature involves forming some kind of "exclusive" groups... And the number of camps in HiFi alone is mind-blowing... Everyone has discovered the fountain of youth or spear of destiny or whatever and the rest of us are all poor deluded fools...

Feanor
11-16-2011, 08:48 AM
The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans. Snobbery is just one form of that - the ability to afford expensive gear others cannot puts a person in an exclusive club.
.... (Ever met anyone who was annoyingly superior in their display of humbleness?) ;-)
Yes, but this is old news.

To me you comments come across as dismissive of the fact that the supposedly preeminent hi-fi mags are are catering to that ubiquitously catered to elite, the rich.

mlsstl
11-16-2011, 10:05 AM
Feanor, I suspect Stereophile and TAS are targeting more than just the rich. I don't routinely read them, but when I do, they often have articles about middle price equipment or even stellar finds in the low cost arena. (I recall the $300 Squeezebox Touch was glowingly treated by Stereophile about a year ago.)

Their goal is to have as large a circulation as possible, so that makes for an interesting balancing act to keep the various constituencies placated. I know they don't waste much time on the DIY crowd, nor the casual audio shopper, but I think they do play to more than one of the other groups.

Hyfi
11-16-2011, 10:23 AM
Feanor, I suspect Stereophile and TAS are targeting more than just the rich. I don't routinely read them, but when I do, they often have articles about middle price equipment or even stellar finds in the low cost arena. (I recall the $300 Squeezebox Touch was glowingly treated by Stereophile about a year ago.)

Their goal is to have as large a circulation as possible, so that makes for an interesting balancing act to keep the various constituencies placated. I know they don't waste much time on the DIY crowd, nor the casual audio shopper, but I think they do play to more than one of the other groups.

They do now but at the time I cancelled my subscription they did not and the majority of letters to editor were always complaining about it. Many people cancelled and they finally did something about it. But many times the associated equipment is not in the same league as the item being reviewed. They will review a $500 pair of speakers using 20K worth of gear.

Ajani
11-16-2011, 10:57 AM
Yes, but this is old news.

To me you comments come across as dismissive of the fact that the supposedly preeminent hi-fi mags are are catering to that ubiquitously catered to elite, the rich.

Is there really something wrong with that? Keep in mind that magazines are not some form of public service but are intended to be profit earning businesses. So if they feel the elite are the ones driving sales, then why shouldn't they cater to the elite?

I'm middle-class (and I imagine the majority of us on this site are as well), but if I start my own business and the ultra rich are the ones buying my product, then I'm going to cater to their needs...

Now the fact that Stereophile has, in recent years, moved away from just reviewing luxury gear and is focusing on more affordable gear, implies that either their customer base has shifted more towards the middle class... OR ... that they were wrong in thinking that the elite were the ones buying their mags...

Feanor
11-16-2011, 11:52 AM
Is there really something wrong with that? Keep in mind that magazines are not some form of public service but are intended to be profit earning businesses. So if they feel the elite are the ones driving sales, then why shouldn't they cater to the elite?

I'm middle-class (and I imagine the majority of us on this site are as well), but if I start my own business and the ultra rich are the ones buying my product, then I'm going to cater to their needs...

Now the fact that Stereophile has, in recent years, moved away from just reviewing luxury gear and is focusing on more affordable gear, implies that either their customer base has shifted more to wards the middle class... OR ... that they were wrong in thinking that the elite were the ones buying their mags...
Don't mind me, folks, I'm just an old curmudgeon.

I understand about catering to the carriage trade; it's a time-honored strategy. And I too would do that if I had a business where that were the most profitable approach -- indeed, that's the main reason we see so much high-end equipment. Mass producing and mass marketing low cost gear is difficult; a lot easier (seemingly) to get into the arena with high markup products.

But hey, it's one thing to understand a phenomenon but another thing to like it.

I know that there has long been a lot of median income people who like to read about pricey, supposedly SOTA equipment even if they can't afford it. (Occassionally I do too, especially if there is some genuinely new technology involved.) But I definitely would like to see more affordable equipment reviewed than I am seeing.

But anyway, this thread didn't start off about 'Philes or TAS' marketing strategies, it was about Mark Fremer's particular remark which as still regard as an ill-considered, douche thing to say.

mlsstl
11-16-2011, 12:12 PM
But anyway, this thread didn't start off about 'Philes or TAS' marketing strategies, it was about Mark Fremer's particular remark which as still regard as an ill-considered, douche thing to say.

In short, a snarky way for him to declare his superiority to those who are not members of his club.

Back to Human Nature 101.

Poultrygeist
11-16-2011, 12:25 PM
RGA,

You missed my point. Quality parts are everything in an amp but those high quality parts are cheap compared to the ridiculous prices these boutique amps command. We are duped into believing that such amps are better but they are only as good as the sum of the parts ( which are available to all ) and the care taken in their assembly. Proprietary parts are usually nothing more than just be-badged off the shelf stuff. There's nothing new under the sun with amp design while R&D amounts to looking at what's already been done and matching that with profit margins. The single ended triode, believed by many to be superior to all others, dates back to the late 1920's.

I would hope all these boutique amps would be point-to-point hand wired with few if any pcb's but I doubt that's the case. Even the cheapo DIY amp kits are point-to-point hand wired with no printed circuit boards.

Feanor
11-16-2011, 01:04 PM
In short, a snarky way for him to declare his superiority to those who are not members of his club.

Back to Human Nature 101.
Yep. Basically so.

Then too when people are separated long enough from "the little people" they begin to genuinely believe in their own version of reality.

Poultrygeist
11-16-2011, 02:43 PM
Mark, meet Buzz my DIY amp building bud from Greenville

Greenvalve Audio Latest - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgZ9YNVWAhw&feature=related)

RGA
11-16-2011, 07:19 PM
RGA,

You missed my point. Quality parts are everything in an amp but those high quality parts are cheap compared to the ridiculous prices these boutique amps command. We are duped into believing that such amps are better but they are only as good as the sum of the parts ( which are available to all ) and the care taken in their assembly. Proprietary parts are usually nothing more than just be-badged off the shelf stuff. There's nothing new under the sun with amp design while R&D amounts to looking at what's already been done and matching that with profit margins. The single ended triode, believed by many to be superior to all others, dates back to the late 1920's.

I would hope all these boutique amps would be point-to-point hand wired with few if any pcb's but I doubt that's the case. Even the cheapo DIY amp kits are point-to-point hand wired with no printed circuit boards.

I do agree in part since there are plenty of companies that have amps built in China rebadged under their own names and marked up many times. You can get that amp or the parts largely anywhere.

I don't see too many of the best brands advertising point to point wiring. Mid level stuff I see it more.

Some SET companies do spend the big bucks on the internals of their gear - and whilst some may disagree with the choice to spend money on cables, caps, transformers, resisters circuit boards etc some do in fact spend the money in designing and building their own parts

StevenSurprenant
11-17-2011, 04:32 AM
The urge to feel superior to others is hard-wired into humans.

Great analogy of the human condition.

Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.

Luvin Da Blues
11-17-2011, 04:56 AM
Great analogy of the human condition.

Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.

You mean they love some of the song. I prefer to hear every octave, nuance and detail when I listen. That's why I have a decent system. :11::21:

Feanor
11-17-2011, 05:50 AM
...
Oddly, the people I admire the most are people who can enjoy a table radio or boom box, and who need nothing beyond that. They just love the music.
On music lover sites I visit there are lots of these people. There's not doubt about their love of music, but they're fine listening to in boomboxes, (or compact systems, etc.). But this really has nothing to do with the current discussion which is about the audiophile hobby.

And of course, some of the true music lovers at the sites I'm thinking of have high-end systems. So music loving and audiophilia can coexist.

StevenSurprenant
11-17-2011, 07:03 AM
I guess that I didn't make my point and the connection I was trying to make to the subject matter was too obtuse. That's fine, I understand. I'll just mark it up to my inability to communicate effectively.

I'll try and make it a little clearer.

mlsstl's post is a very good example of human nature, in this case, focused on our attitudes concerning audio. This "nature" applies to many aspects of our lives which I won't go into for fear that someone will accuse me of getting off subject.

Understanding this "nature", we can relate it ourselves. Fremer triggered some resentment with some of us here, but some of us brushed it off as nothing bad being implied while others took it to heart and as an insult. I don't know this man, nor will I second guess what his words implied. The same applies to the posters here at audioreview. Some of us here use condescending tones towards others from time to time. There are many egos at play on this site and sometimes the tone that Fremer used is reflected in the way we speak to each other. At times, we are no different. Except in the case of a direct verbal attack on another, these bursts of ego should not to be taken seriously. Life is too short to let this be of any concern and besides, I think most people are perceptual enough to see past the words and garner the implied meanings.

As for the people that are happy with their table radio...

These people don't argue, fuss or fight like we do. They see the beauty in the song and that is enough to make them happy. We can learn something from them.

Human nature is so bizarre that I have no doubt that some here will take offense to my, "can't we all get along speech." It's mind boggling!

Hyfi
11-17-2011, 08:07 AM
I guess that I didn't make my point and the connection I was trying to make to the subject matter was too obtuse. That's fine, I understand. I'll just mark it up to my inability to communicate effectively.

I'll try and make it a little clearer.

mlsstl's post is a very good example of human nature, in this case, focused on our attitudes concerning audio. This "nature" applies to many aspects of our lives which I won't go into for fear that someone will accuse me of getting off subject.

Understanding this "nature", we can relate it ourselves. Fremer triggered some resentment with some of us here, but some of us brushed it off as nothing bad being implied while others took it to heart and as an insult. I don't know this man, nor will I second guess what his words implied. The same applies to the posters here at audioreview. Some of us here use condescending tones towards others from time to time. There are many egos at play on this site and sometimes the tone that Fremer used is reflected in the way we speak to each other. At times, we are no different. Except in the case of a direct verbal attack on another, these bursts of ego should not to be taken seriously. Life is too short to let this be of any concern and besides, I think most people are perceptual enough to see past the words and garner the implied meanings.

As for the people that are happy with their table radio...

These people don't argue, fuss or fight like we do. They see the beauty in the song and that is enough to make them happy. We can learn something from them.

Human nature is so bizarre that I have no doubt that some here will take offense to my, "can't we all get along speech." It's mind boggling!

What are you thinking you stupid idiot?








Just kidding, good post!

hifitommy
11-17-2011, 03:09 PM
i am with poppa! what mikey said was "if you THINK". i believe he was pointing out that 4200 isnt an exhorbitant amount in COMPARISON to some others such as Soulution amps and th like.

i LOVE my cheap adcom 555II but i assure you, there are others i might have if i had ludicrous dough.

now and again we get a taste of the high priced spread that is within our reach and is pleasing to our ears. its like buying a lexus yet there are WAY more expensive cars. i will bet some of us have lexus or acuras. i see bentlys here in so-cal and lamboghinis etc. would those people be happy with a chevy? if it was a corvette maybe but not an impala.

its a HOBBY and we dabble where we can afford. i would have the MBL101s and commensurate associated equipment had i the bucks. instead i have MMGs and s3/5s. i DO have an audio research sp3a1 and now fully understand why some buy that brand and VTLs etc. and not just tubed stuff either.

stereophile and tas arent snobs, they are hipping us to the best and also the affordable. just as car and driver tells us about lotuses and the like.

E-Stat
11-17-2011, 04:56 PM
If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."
Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"

That acknowledges the fact that being an audiophile isn't based upon what you own or can afford. I considered myself an audiophile when I was a teenager with an H-K Citation 11/Crown D-150 driving double Advents. It's based upon what you seek. The journey of discovery as to what is possible. And the thrill of the experience. My curiosity and passion has never stopped. If you've never heard a well matched system using exceptional amps ten times that cost, then you should be asking yourself "how can I add that to my experience?" Diminishing returns certainly apply, but that doesn't minimize the joy I get from hearing systems far better (and more costly) than mine.

It just takes me closer to my music. Isn't that what it's all about?

rw

Feanor
11-18-2011, 05:25 AM
Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"
...
rw
Good point. Aren't we petty, self-centered people to equate "expensive" with what we can't afford -- we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers.

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 06:21 AM
"It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive" (notice the quotes), well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

That comment is ill spoken...why? Because expense is subjective.

E-Stat
11-18-2011, 06:26 AM
to equate "expensive" with what we can't afford
Since your $2300 Monarchy amps were presumably "not expensive" and the $4200 RMs are "expensive", where do you find the tipping point?

Do you find that $2300 for a stereo power amplifier represents the median investment for the 99% of the audio buying public?

rw

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 07:09 AM
Sorry, but I agree. Before you jump my case, I think the operative clause that folks here seem to miss is:

"regardless of what you can afford"

That acknowledges the fact that being an audiophile isn't based upon what you own or can afford. I considered myself an audiophile when I was a teenager with an H-K Citation 11/Crown D-150 driving double Advents. It's based upon what you seek. The journey of discovery as to what is possible. And the thrill of the experience. My curiosity and passion has never stopped. If you've never heard a well matched system using exceptional amps ten times that cost, then you should be asking yourself "how can I add that to my experience?" Diminishing returns certainly apply, but that doesn't minimize the joy I get from hearing systems far better (and more costly) than mine.

It just takes me closer to my music. Isn't that what it's all about?

rw

So the pursuit of high-fidelity means that one can't have a subjective idea of expense and if we do we are in the wrong hobby?

E-Stat
11-18-2011, 07:16 AM
So the pursuit of high-fidelity means that one can't have a subjective idea of expense and if we do we are in the wrong hobby?
Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

Ajani
11-18-2011, 07:23 AM
Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

IMO, that is the key point: "Context"... In absolute terms a $4K amp can certainly be considered expensive (that's more than many persons after tax pay for the month... and not everyone can afford to spend an entire month's salary on a non-necessity)... However, in the context of the HiFi market, a $4K amp can be seen as being cheap (especially if it performs on par with $14K amps - considering the price of the amps Fremer uses; for him to be so satisfied with a $4K amp says a lot about its performance)....

Feanor
11-18-2011, 08:04 AM
Since your $2300 Monarchy amps were presumably "not expensive" and the $4200 RMs are "expensive", where do you find the tipping point?

Do you find that $2300 for a stereo power amplifier represents the median investment for the 99% of the audio buying public?

rw
Not likely, but then (a) I personally considered the $2300 expensive, and (b) depite the official MSRP, I actually paid $1176, the price for which you can buy them today ... High End at Low Cost. Enter the audiophile world for pennies on the dollar. (http://www.highendatlowcost.com/)

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 08:13 AM
Not at all. I merely presume you are aware of the many $50k and above amplifiers on the market. Similarly, my wife's Honda S2000 costs one-tenth that of a Ferrari with not too terribly different performance. I suspect that some folks would consider the Honda expensive, but in context to the market, I think most would agree that it is not.

rw

I disagree with the premise. And its not a bad thing to disagree...but my point is, one can't make statements like the one made by saying one" is in the wrong hobby"...that's ill spoken in the context of our hobby..... "expensive" is subjective....and yet some may still purchase regardless of what one will say is expensive. What I think about a thing or item does not necessarily make one in the wrong activity.

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 08:17 AM
IMO, that is the key point: "Context"... In absolute terms a $4K amp can certainly be considered expensive (that's more than many persons after tax pay for the month... and not everyone can afford to spend an entire month's salary on a non-necessity)... However, in the context of the HiFi market, a $4K amp can be seen as being cheap (especially if it performs on par with $14K amps - considering the price of the amps Fremer uses; for him to be so satisfied with a $4K amp says a lot about its performance)....

So if one think its not cheap but expensive, would you say that person is in the wrong hobby?

Ajani
11-18-2011, 08:49 AM
So if one think its not cheap but expensive, would you say that person is in the wrong hobby?

The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent, sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 09:43 AM
The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...

I very well understand your point Ajani...but the question is do you think they are in the wrong hobby?

Ajani
11-18-2011, 10:33 AM
I very well understand your point Ajani...but the question is do you think they are in the wrong hobby?

If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

But let's address your question:

It seems to me that your question is whether I would have phrased Fremer's point in those exact words - The answer is no... I'm not Fremer.

I can say that a point someone made is incorrect or I can say that it is ridiculous. Both mean the point is wrong, but one has a negative connotation.. So I wouldn't have phrased it the way Fremer did as I'd have probably opted for something more diplomatic, but I still agree with his point...

IMO, Fremer's argument is that in the context of HiFi this amp is not expensive (based on performance)...

There are two ways to combat his claim:

1) $4K is expensive in general.

2) There are amps equaling that performance for less than $4K.

RE:

1) Who cares? There's no HiFi context to that claim and hence it's irrelevant.

2) Is a valid argument.

So anybody in this hobby should be arguing point 2) if they wish to disagree with Fremer... If their only argument is point 1) then why are they in hobby? From my previous post if you claim a Hyundai Accent is expensive then why would you be a car enthusiast?

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 11:37 AM
If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

But let's address your question:

It seems to me that your question is whether I would have phrased Fremer's point in those exact words - The answer is no... I'm not Fremer.

I can say that a point someone made is incorrect or I can say that it is ridiculous. Both mean the point is wrong, but one has a negative connotation.. So I wouldn't have phrased it the way Fremer did as I'd have probably opted for something more diplomatic, but I still agree with his point...

IMO, Fremer's argument is that in the context of HiFi this amp is not expensive (based on performance)...

There are two ways to combat his claim:

1) $4K is expensive in general.

2) There are amps equaling that performance for less than $4K.

RE:

1) Who cares? There's no HiFi context to that claim and hence it's irrelevant.

2) Is a valid argument.

So anybody in this hobby should be arguing point 2) if they wish to disagree with Fremer... If their only argument is point 1) then why are they in hobby? From my previous post if you claim a Hyundai Accent is expensive then why would you be a car enthusiast?

In the grand scheme of audio...no the amp is not expensive at all. Fremer was being facetious with his comment poor as it was...but some, as we have seen will take him for a snobb at best as he looks down on others with the comment. In a real world its judgmental and wrong....expense is subjective.

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 11:41 AM
If someone doesn't bother to know enough about their own hobby, are they in the right hobby?

Possibly yes...because we all where novice at one point or another...and there are several factors of why we want to know certain things over other things with in that certain hobby.

Ajani
11-18-2011, 12:09 PM
In the grand scheme of audio...no the amp is not expensive at all. Fremer was being facetious with his comment poor as it was...but some, as we have seen will take him for a snobb at best as he looks down on others with the comment. In a real world its judgmental and wrong....expense is subjective.

Clearly Fremer's comment was meant to be provocative... But I still don't think it's the big deal that some posters in this thread regard it is...

Had he said that; if you are unwilling or unable to afford a $4K amp then you're in the wrong hobby, then I would agree that such a statement is over the top and offensive...

As for being judgmental: EVERYONE of us is, in both everyday life and especially this hobby... When we talk about how bad someone's favourite brand sounds compared to the brands we own / like, we are being highly judgmental. Listening preference is subjective...

So why are we so hellbent on chastising Fremer for being judgmental, in between our own bouts of being just as judgmental as he is?

Mash
11-18-2011, 02:13 PM
It is true that some people have more money than the rest of us, and that some people have A LOT more money than the rest of us. Also some people can afford $4000 amps and even $40,000 amps, or whatever.......

Your communal mistake here is in assuming that all of these people are in the same group.

Entertainers and movie stars are famous for their pricy purchases, but these people also often die poor. Michael Jackson made a ton of money and he spent a ton of money, and he died with a negative $400 million net worth.

My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..

Feanor
11-18-2011, 02:26 PM
....
My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..
Said doctor is either an ass or not nearly as successful as we supposed.

Very likely, after all, Fremer tossed off the remark casually with giving it much thought. It is true, after all, that in his world $50,000 amps are fairly common. He ought to have given it more though, of course.

Mash
11-18-2011, 02:37 PM
as it is importrant how much money STICKS TO your hands. The referenced practice was successful as the financials would demonstrate but how much good does that do if most of what flows in also flows out?

Ajani
11-18-2011, 02:53 PM
as it is importrant how much money STICKS TO your hands. The referenced practice was successful as the financials would demonstrate but how much good does that do if most of what flows in also flows out?

I often tell my students that I regard expenses as being more important than income... If I doubled my salary tomorrow I could immediately find ways to waste the entire increase.... The trick is to keep your expenses down... Then even a relatively pitiful income could accumulate to something worthwhile...

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 03:04 PM
Clearly Fremer's comment was meant to be provocative... But I still don't think it's the big deal that some posters in this thread regard it is...

Had he said that; if you are unwilling or unable to afford a $4K amp then you're in the wrong hobby, then I would agree that such a statement is over the top and offensive...

As for being judgmental: EVERYONE of us is, in both everyday life and especially this hobby... When we talk about how bad someone's favourite brand sounds compared to the brands we own / like, we are being highly judgmental. Listening preference is subjective...

So why are we so hellbent on chastising Fremer for being judgmental, in between our own bouts of being just as judgmental as he is?

hmmmm....good points on judgmental-ism, I've had my share of it.

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 03:13 PM
It is true that some people have more money than the rest of us, and that some people have A LOT more money than the rest of us. Also some people can afford $4000 amps and even $40,000 amps, or whatever.......

Your communal mistake here is in assuming that all of these people are in the same group.

Entertainers and movie stars are famous for their pricy purchases, but these people also often die poor. Michael Jackson made a ton of money and he spent a ton of money, and he died with a negative $400 million net worth.

My daughter was negotiating a buy-sell agreement for joining a very successful 62 year old doctor's practice. That doctor claimed he was going to retire at 65 which would then make my daughter the senior doctor, but my daughter somehow learned that the good 62 year old doctor had saved only $500,000 for his retirement. She broke off the negotiation because she felt that given the good doctor's expensive house and expensive cars plus the lavish vacations he took with his wife, $500,000 was simply insufficient for supporting their lifestyle in retirement.

Why all the hurt feelings?.....So I would simply let this entire matter blow off to obscurity…………………………..

I can't speak for others but my feeling certainly where not hurt....I just think he does not care about selling magazines. Just so you'd know, I enjoy the magazine and will continue to buy it.

frenchmon
11-18-2011, 03:18 PM
I often tell my students that I regard expenses as being more important than income... If I doubled my salary tomorrow I could immediately find ways to waste the entire increase.... The trick is to keep your expenses down... Then even a relatively pitiful income could accumulate to something worthwhile...

Very good advice, but for many that lesson is learned through experience.

RoyY51
11-18-2011, 03:50 PM
The issue remains context...

In absolute terms a Hyundai Accent is expensive... How many persons have the money to buy an Accent, sitting in a savings a/c? But to say that a Hyundai Accent is an expensive car, really shows a lack of understanding of the car market...

Likewise, in the context of prices of amps of similar quality, I'd say that they don't seem to know much about the hobby...

If they can show that there are amps of the same quality for less money, then I can see a case for claiming that $4K is expensive... Otherwise the claim of it being expensive is out of context and IMO, meaningless...
Lets use the car analogy:

There are, indeed, many cars on the road that are more expensive than the Hyundia Accent, and given the performance of the Accent it is a great lower-cost alternative to the higher priced vehicles. But what if I can't even afford the Accent? What if I could only afford a used Ford Focus?

Would Mr. Fremer tell me that I shouldn't be driving at all?

Ajani
11-18-2011, 04:43 PM
Lets use the car analogy:

There are, indeed, many cars on the road that are more expensive than the Hyundia Accent, and given the performance of the Accent it is a great lower-cost alternative to the higher priced vehicles. But what if I can't even afford the Accent? What if I could only afford a used Ford Focus?

Would Mr. Fremer tell me that I shouldn't be driving at all?

No he wouldn't... In the context of his argument he'd say you shouldn't be driving if you regard the Accent as expensive for what it offers... His argument is not whether you can afford or are willing to buy an Accent...

RoyY51
11-18-2011, 04:59 PM
No he wouldn't... In the context of his argument he'd say you shouldn't be driving if you regard the Accent as expensive for what it offers... His argument is not whether you can afford or are willing to buy an Accent...

Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.

Ajani
11-18-2011, 05:00 PM
Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.

Fair enough...

hifitommy
11-18-2011, 07:40 PM
"we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers"

fean,

it is not the 1%ers who buy themselves the comfort food of a 4200 dollar tube amp. they buy the constellation equipment recently evaluated by tas.

some of us will scrimp and sacrifice other items such as land rovers or even volvos (which are for some, a safety purchase) to indulge our love of the sound of music produced in our homes.

the music reference products actually represent a good value in terms of sound quality.

it is easy to see that kind of money going towards live performances around town (especially in LA or NY) if you want to take your sig other. classical music perfs can be costly and broadway shows or vegas productions like cirq de soleil of LOVE (with the very best sound i have ever heard in public) but worth every cent.

reproducing items like santana's abraxas or holst's the planets suite by zubin mehta/LA Philharmonic with the 4200 buck tube amp with appropriate speakers etc can be nearly equally rewarding.

so can a phase linear 700 pushing stacked advents playing stanley clarke's silly putty cut from the album 'journey to love'.

4200 (for the amp alone) isnt reasonable for a beginner but for a seasoned music lover it is a logical goal. a hundred watts of excellent tube power can be glorious.

frenchmon
11-19-2011, 02:39 AM
Whether or not I regard the Accent as expensive is immaterial. Anyone who tells me that I shouldn't be on the road, based on anything but my driving ability, is a putz.


While I do think he was out of place for making that ill remark....and while I think you and Ajani both have two very good arguments, they are not from the same perspective thus you two will never see eye to eye.

Ajani
11-19-2011, 05:23 AM
While I do think he was out of place for making that ill remark....and while I think you and Ajani both have two very good arguments, they are not from the same perspective thus you two will never see eye to eye.

Actually, I have no issue with Roy's last point.

It seems to me he's saying that:

"just because someone doesn't understand what is considered expensive in the context of HiFi, is not a reason to say they shouldn't be in the hobby."

So perhaps Fremer's point should have been:

"if you think that's expensive, then you have a lot to learn about HiFi."

Of course even with such a word change, I'm sure there are still persons who would be offended... + I still think we're making far too much of Fremer's comments...

Feanor
11-19-2011, 08:15 AM
"we ought to try harder to understand the POV of the 1%ers"

fean,

it is not the 1%ers who buy themselves the comfort food of a 4200 dollar tube amp. they buy the constellation equipment recently evaluated by tas.

some of us will scrimp and sacrifice other items such as land rovers or even volvos (which are for some, a safety purchase) to indulge our love of the sound of music produced in our homes.

the music reference products actually represent a good value in terms of sound quality.

...
Right your are, HFT.

Actually I've been downsizing lately. I sold my Monarchy amps, nominally $2300, my Sonic Frontiers preamp, MSRP $3500, and an Assemblage DAC, >$400; (all three actually purchased for much less). I replaced the former with a <$600 Class D Audio SDS-258 and SF with a Jolida passive preamp, MSRP $265, and the Assemblage with a <$90 Chinese DAC from eBay . In fact I think the latter combo sounds better to me: more transparent, more accurate instrument timbres.

Back in the day when I got started in hi-fi that hobby was supposedly about just that: accurate reproduction. Today euphonics and then infinite variety of personal preferences has taken over from actual high fidelity.

frenchmon
11-19-2011, 09:52 AM
Actually, I have no issue with Roy's last point.

It seems to me he's saying that:

"just because someone doesn't understand what is considered expensive in the context of HiFi, is not a reason to say they shouldn't be in the hobby."

So perhaps Fremer's point should have been:

"if you think that's expensive, then you have a lot to learn about HiFi."

Of course even with such a word change, I'm sure there are still persons who would be offended... + I still think we're making far too much of Fremer's comments...

Yeah...perhaps.

dingus
11-19-2011, 11:53 AM
...stereophile and tas arent snobs, they are hipping us to the best and also the affordable. just as car and driver tells us about lotuses and the like.

true, but Fremer went further than that. his comment falls outside the bounds of civility and mutual respect.

frenchmon
11-19-2011, 06:33 PM
true, but Fremer went further than that. his comment falls outside the bounds of civility and mutual respect.

Yeah and that is the point of view that some of us have been arguing. I'm not going to say what he said was nice or even smart even if he may have been facetious, he could have been simply lashing out at the many who complain about the high priced gear every month that they cant afford. But still, for those who where offended, they may never buy the magazine again....hmmmm, I wonder if they (Stereophile) even care?

Ajani
11-19-2011, 07:22 PM
Yeah and that is the point of view that some of us have been arguing. I'm not going to say what he said was nice or even smart even if he may have been facetious, he could have been simply lashing out at the many who complain about the high priced gear every month that they cant afford. But still, for those who where offended, they may never buy the magazine again....hmmmm, I wonder if they (Stereophile) even care?

I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0)

hifitommy
11-19-2011, 09:23 PM
i think mikey was inferring that any serious audiophile would realize prices range much higher than 4200 for a 100wpc tube amp. i seriously doubt that he was being elitist about it.

it seems many people are poised and ready to be offended.

Feanor
11-20-2011, 04:45 AM
I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0)
So if your system isn't in the $15k range you're not of much interest to Stereophile -- no real surprise.

For my part, I never disagreed that $4 isn't expensive in absolute terms, but I reserve the right (1) consider it expensive in personal terms, and (2) at the same time, participate in the audiophile hobby.

Feanor
11-20-2011, 05:03 AM
I think a good question is how many persons who actually buy Stereophile were offended by the comment... John Atkinson has said for several years that the average Stereophile reader has around $15,000 invested in his system.

BTW, I raised the issue on the Stereophile forums. You can see JA's response here (the 8th post):

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0)
See my response to JA, post #9 ...

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0#comment-489530)

frenchmon
11-20-2011, 05:17 AM
Feanor....good for you...you get greenies....


Edit:....well I tried, but I guess I don't spread them around enough.

Ajani
11-20-2011, 06:20 AM
So if your system isn't in the $15k range you're not of much interest to Stereophile -- no real surprise.

For my part, I never disagreed that $4 isn't expensive in absolute terms, but I reserve the right (1) consider it expensive in personal terms, and (2) at the same time, participate in the audiophile hobby.

Fremer is not talking about whether $4K is expensive in terms of your personal budget. So there's no reason to be offended if you find $4K personally expensive.

also, I find it somewhat weird that so far no one (ASFAIK) has disagreed with Fremer's point that in the context of HiFi $4K isn't expensive, yet so many persons are offended by the comment.

dingus
11-20-2011, 07:21 AM
i think mikey was inferring that any serious audiophile would realize prices range much higher than 4200 for a 100wpc tube amp. i seriously doubt that he was being elitist about it.

it seems many people are poised and ready to be offended.

.....


Fremer is not talking about whether $4K is expensive in terms of your personal budget. So there's no reason to be offended if you find $4K personally expensive.

also, I find it somewhat weird that so far no one (ASFAIK) has disagreed with Fremer's point that in the context of HiFi $4K isn't expensive, yet so many persons are offended by the comment.

thats out of touch with the real world. the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market at best. when compared to audio hardware as a whole, a $4000 component is expensive regardless of ones personal financial status.

for me, and i'm guessing its the same for the vast majority of folks in this hobby, that $4000 amp is quite spendy. i'm not offended because of that, but i do take offense that by Fremers standards, i cant play in his realm based on my views of component pricing.

Ajani
11-20-2011, 09:35 AM
.....



thats out of touch with the real world. the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market at best. when compared to audio hardware as a whole, a $4000 component is expensive regardless of ones personal financial status.

for me, and i'm guessing its the same for the vast majority of folks in this hobby, that $4000 amp is quite spendy. i'm not offended because of that, but i do take offense that by Fremers standards, i cant play in his realm based on my views of component pricing.

Context - Clearly the discussion of HiFi is about High-End (our hobby) not consumer electronics in general. So $4K is not expensive in High End.

So while I see all the reasons persons can find to be offended by the comment, it seems to me that people have taken offense to Fremer's exclusion of persons with a hypothetical stance that no-one so far claims to hold...

If persons really believe that $4K is expensive in the context of High End, then I would get them being offended, but since (ASFAIK) no-one disputes Fremer's claim, then I see no reason to be offended...

hifitommy
11-20-2011, 10:08 AM
the proliferation of products listing in excess of the said $4k level is staggering. someone out there other than the manufacturers believes that those products are worth the money to get the higly refined sonic results they are looking for. and yes, the differences are real. the zesto phono stage recently exhibited at the shows like newport and RMAF is $4k so that much for a tubed power amp of 100wpc doesnt seem so high in comparison.

those more fortunate than most of us are willing to part with their cash for items that give them comfort.

it seems unconscionable to most of us but if we were to be able to reach for that level, we just might.

there are attendees of our meetings at the LA/OC Audio Society (http://www.laocaudiosociety.net/ (http://www.laocaudiosociety.net/events.html)) that arrive in bentley automobiles so 4k is likely pocket change for them.

frenchmon
11-20-2011, 10:13 AM
]Those who complain of the ever-increasing prices of high-performance audio gear need only look at the Music Reference RM-200 Mk.II. It provides high performance, high build quality, high reliability and I'm sure, great measurements-all at a low price, considering how much honest musical enjoyment it makes possible. And it's made in America.

It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive," well regardless of what you can afford, You're in the wrong hobby. It has no blue LEDs, but you can't have everything.

After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

dingus
11-20-2011, 02:08 PM
...the proliferation of products listing in excess of the said $4k level is staggering...


...Context - Clearly the discussion of HiFi is about High-End (our hobby) not consumer electronics in general. So $4K is not expensive in High End....

first - the products in excess of $4k is minuscule compared to the products beneath that threshold.

second - again, the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market, and i am not talking about consumer electronics in general, but world of audio products in general. if you want to draw the line of what qualifies as hifi with a dollar amount you'll come off just like Fremer.

Ajani
11-20-2011, 02:10 PM
After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

I think your interpretation of what Fremer said is why so many people in this thread are taking offence:

They are unable/unwilling to separate what Fremer actually said, from the idea that if you can't afford or unwilling to pay for a $4K Amp then you don't belong in the hobby...

His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

hifitommy
11-20-2011, 02:10 PM
>"high-end" of hifi is a niche market<

mmmm, not so. attend rmaf or THE show in vegas, NY, or newport beach and you may change your tune.

i like affordable equipment as much as the next guy as evidenced by my inclusion of magnepan MMGs in my system. i also appreciate the finer items such as the audio research sp3a1 and sota sapphire tt in my system.

if you are happy with mid fi or what can be accomplished with vintage equipment (some of it is dam nice) the so be it. thse of us who feel like dabbling in the deep end of the pool enjoy the water as much as you.

dingus
11-20-2011, 02:12 PM
After looking at this quote in context....its a shot at those who complain about high rising prices of audio....and if they think its expensive, they are in the wrong hobby...why? I have to assume for two reasons.

1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

or like me, you believe that you can attain a "high-end" system without spending $4000 for a component.

Ajani
11-20-2011, 02:20 PM
first - the products in excess of $4k is minuscule compared to the products beneath that threshold.

second - again, the "high-end" of hifi is a niche market, and i am not talking about consumer electronics in general, but world of audio products in general. if you want to draw the line of what qualifies as hifi with a dollar amount you'll come off just like Fremer.

The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

Ajani
11-20-2011, 02:29 PM
See my response to JA, post #9 ...

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0#comment-489530)

I think you (and everyone else for that matter) should read his response to you, post 10:

On stands, not on Zinio | Stereophile.com (http://www.stereophile.com/content/stands-not-zinio-0)

dingus
11-20-2011, 02:55 PM
The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

Fremer: "It costs $4200. If that's your idea of "expensive", well, regardless of what you can afford, you're in the wrong hobby."

to say $4000 is not expensive is detached from reality. by any comparison, any $4000 audio component is expensive. Fremer said that i'm in the wrong hobby because i think $4000 is expensive for an amp. my problem is not with the cost of the amp, but with his attitude in regards to my participation in the hobby.

frenchmon
11-20-2011, 03:14 PM
I think your interpretation of what Fremer said is why so many people in this thread are taking offence:

They are unable/unwilling to separate what Fremer actually said, from the idea that if you can't afford or unwilling to pay for a $4K Amp then you don't belong in the hobby...

His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

I'm sorry Ajani...you and I will never agree on this one....and yes, I can't use conjecture, nor will I speculate in thought to form or express a theory or opinion of what I believe he meant as many are doing. No need to.... what he said in context is so plain. Any body with high school English skills can understand what was said in context . Why use conjecture when you can plainly see what he said in context.


His line "regardless of what you can afford" should make it clear that it is not about him being prejudiced against the less affluent.

His line of "regardless of what you can afford" makes it abundantly clear that he was lashing out at those who have been complaining of high prices. It is those people whom he addressed the comment..." If that's your idea of "expensive,......"you're in the wrong hobby".

Any body who understand sentence structure can see this without conjecture.

mlsstl
11-20-2011, 03:19 PM
Hey fellows. Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this conversation has turned into a stuck record. How many times do both sides need to repeat the same talking points?

Ajani
11-20-2011, 03:32 PM
I'm sorry Ajani...you and I will never agree on this one....and yes, I can't use conjecture, nor will I speculate in thought to form or express a theory or opinion of what I believe he meant as many are doing. No need to.... what he said in context is so plain. Any body with high school English skills can understand what was said in context . Why use conjecture when you can plainly see what he said in context.



His line of "regardless of what you can afford" makes it abundantly clear that he was lashing out at those who have been complaining of high prices. It is those people whom he addressed the comment..." If that's your idea of "expensive,......"you're in the wrong hobby".

Any body who understand sentence structure can see this without conjecture.

We clearly don't see eye to eye on this, as I regard your previous attempt at interpreting his comments as nothing but conjecture and speculation...

You literally listed 2 points as interpretations of his post, neither of which is what Fremer said, and frankly contradicts what he said:


1) You either can't afford it. Thus your complaining about rising cost...or

2) You can afford it but you are cheap and complaining about rising cost...

Either of those two, your in the wrong hobby.

That's not plain English. That's just your opinion of what he said, based on a whole load of speculation.

Anyway, it is time for me to let this go as clearly we will never agree on this... I suggest you guys go to the linked Stereophile Forum discussion and read John Atkinson's response to all this (note: his interpretation of what Fremer said is nothing like either of the 2 points you've listed). Also, perhaps Fremer will respond over there so you can ask him yourselves...

frenchmon
11-20-2011, 03:46 PM
The context must relate to what Stereophile reviews (High End). When was the last time you read a review of a Panasonic mini-system in Stereophile?

The most expensive retail in my system is my Vincent preamp which when introduced, was $1795....at the time of my purchase it was $1500. I was able to get it for less than $1000 because it was a demo. But in the scope of audio, I would not think it as high-end and considering your remarks below and of Fremers comments in context of audio I think you would not either. So in that regard, Stereophile does infact review gear thats not only high end, but mid-fi at best.


Anyway, I think it's clear that too many persons here have no interest in either what Fremer actually said or the context of the discussion, so there really is not point continuing this.

I do think this conversation is old but I really do have an interest in what was actually said in CONTEXT of the paragraph. No need to speculate in the context of audio.....when it was said of those who complain of the high cost of audio gear. Why go to the context of all of audio, when he said in context whom he addressed?


My entire stereo setup costs less than that one $4K amp Fremer reviewed, yet I in no way see his comments as a slap in the face to me...

Also, his comment doesn't mean that only products $4K and up are "High-End"...

I think a lot of persons already have a chip on their shoulder against Stereophile and believe the magazine is snobbing them. So when they read Fremer's line they see it as evidence confirming their own expectations, rather than analysing it for what it really is...

This aint the first time I've read such remarks in Stereophile, and am sure not the last....they are no different than other magazines who also have insulting remarks....they can all say what they want....according to US laws. And for the record, I have renewed my two year subscription. I never took offence to the comment, nor other such comments in Stereophile magazine.....I will continue to read it.

frenchmon
11-20-2011, 04:02 PM
Hey fellows. Hate to point out the bleeding obvious, but this conversation has turned into a stuck record. How many times do both sides need to repeat the same talking points?

Yeah, I suppose you are correct...I've given away my speculation and saw the posting for what it really is......so I'm done. Just like that Stereophile quote, I hope there are no hurt feelings.

Hyfi
11-21-2011, 05:05 AM
Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".

Luvin Da Blues
11-21-2011, 06:34 AM
Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".


:thumbsup: Greenies for Ya.

dingus
11-21-2011, 06:46 AM
>"high-end" of hifi is a niche market<

mmmm, not so. attend rmaf or THE show in vegas, NY, or newport beach and you may change your tune. ....
the masses which attend the shows and subscribe to the publications are mostly tire-kicking-droolers (myself included) and not serious buyers. most of the buying audio market dont even bother taking a look.



.... thse of us who feel like dabbling in the deep end of the pool enjoy the water as much as you.
i'm with you 100% and have taken an occasional plunge myself. this hobby is about individual enjoyment reached on ones own terms - wherever that takes you, but according to Fremer i shouldnt even be in the pool.

Jack in Wilmington
11-21-2011, 07:30 AM
Although this has become a circular discussion, I enjoyed reading through all the viewpoints.

Aside altogether from MFs comments, 4K is not overly expensive if you know what your getting and why. So many people will drop that extra 4 or 5K on a car that does nothing different than one 4 or 5K less because of the status symbol and what the car says about the person. (or so they imagine) Same people will drop many hundreds or thousands on a watch that does not tell time any differently than a $50 watch, again because of what they perceive it says about them or how it makes them look. Then that same person will whine about how outrageously expensive a High Quality $4K amp is. Where is the reasoning behind that scenario?

I personally have never shelled out more than $1300 for new Amp, an Odyssey Stratos with upgrades, and I did spend $2500 on new Dynaudio speakers.

I do however own a few pcs of gear that fall into the price range that seems to have everyone crying foul. I can tell you first hand that these perform a whole lot better than the lesser price gear I have owned. Enough so that it is a little easier for me to justify that they just may be worth what they cost new.

I'm not sure how many in this thread have ever heard what a VAC pre amp can do (ha, when properly tubed) or what a 15 y/o Counterpoint amp can do when compared to an Emotiva or even my Stratos.

Maybe after you go hear some systems similarly setup, you would also agree that even if you would "choose not to afford them" you would come to the conclusion that they are killer compared to the run of the mill stuff everybody has.

And yes, I did say "choose" to afford. I say that because we all have different priorities. Some people smoke ciggies still and think nothing of dropping several thousand dollars to support that habit but turn around and say a top quality amp is too expensive at $4K. Others will continue to drive around in their V8-Hemi trucks getting 10 gallons to the mile and wasting many thousands in gas that they could spend on quality audio, if they so "choose".

I don't make a huge amount of money, and my wife can't work a full time job due to health issues so we have become very frugal, called cheap by others. I have a retirement account that we have built up over the years. I do have some money in places where I can get to it in a pinch. I could afford to go out and buy $20k on new high end gear if I so choose.

In the scheme of things. $4k for a high quality tube amp that has the potential of bringing you 15 years of musical happiness is not that overly expensive. Many here will also say that an OPPO93 is expensive and overkill. I own one and am absolutely satisfied that I got a machine that plays just about anything and has great streaming ability. Someone else may be perfectly satisfied with a $49 black friday player, but for what it is and does, the OPPO is not overly expensive.

How many people spend close to $100 / month on phone plans, or cable? Well that is one place I save my money in order to buy other things that the person who has to run out and buy every new iProduct is now gonna call expensive.

It's all about choices we all make. I'd be willing to bet that each one of you saying that a $4K amp is over the top has a ridiculous phone plan, runs out to buy the latest technology items, has cable or sat, drinks good beer, drives a car that they think says something about themselves, and has more than a simple Timex watch, or smokes cigarets.

Anyway, Stereophile still caters to the top money people even if they finally review 1 or 2 mid tier items per month. Just look at the advertisements in the mag and count how many are for a $200 pair of speakers or a $600 HT Receiver. Don't kid yourselves. And don't think $4K is expensive in a world where you can spend way more than that for not much more than status. I'm sure if you wanted one, you could find ways to save the money to get one.

That was a great post above about how it's not how much money you make, it's more about how much money you don't stupidly spend. It's about priorities. Some peoples priority is to continue smoking when they know it is killing them and wasting money they could easily spend on quality audio gear, if they so "choose".

Hyfi, well said, Bravo

You mention advertisements. If an advertiser is paying "X" amount for an ad in Stereophile, you have to sort of figure that they want get the word out on their latest and greatest gear. So they're not going to be putting ads in the stereo mags for a $49.00 Blu-Ray player. Same way that when you go to see a concert the artist is told to do songs from their latest release to promote sales.

Hyfi
11-22-2011, 04:54 AM
Hyfi, well said, Bravo

You mention advertisements. If an advertiser is paying "X" amount for an ad in Stereophile, you have to sort of figure that they want get the word out on their latest and greatest gear. So they're not going to be putting ads in the stereo mags for a $49.00 Blu-Ray player. Same way that when you go to see a concert the artist is told to do songs from their latest release to promote sales.

So true.

I really expected some pushback on my post.
Is common sense and a reality check settling in?

hifitommy
01-08-2012, 05:53 PM
i was just rereading the fremer article. he referred to the MBL amps he had the music ref amp setting between. they have a price tag of $90k usd!!

that is really the point he was trying to make. when someone is quoted out of context, they can be easily damned for what they said and not what was intended to be conveyed.

RoyY51
01-08-2012, 06:16 PM
HyFiTommy:

I refer you to posts #'s 6, 20 and 94. I have no problem with his opinion of what's expensive...I do have a problem with his snobbish attitude.

hifitommy
01-08-2012, 08:16 PM
i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.

Feanor
01-09-2012, 05:19 AM
i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.
Sure, he was taken out of context: so what. His literal comment reflects the attitude of typical Stereophile and TAS reviewers and their editors.

Personally I have no more interest in a $4200 component than a $90,000 one. Both of these rags sometines review lower cost components, (TAS more so by my impression), but both take a condescending attitude toward them.

hifitommy
01-09-2012, 06:02 AM
we will have to agree to disagree on both points.

RoyY51
01-09-2012, 01:06 PM
i still believe he has been taken out of context. read his whole review.

I did read his whole review...and I enjoyed it. Mr. Fremer is a very capable audio writer and, for years, has been one of my favorites. But, perhaps he should stick to reviewing and leave the editorializing to someone with more tact...like, maybe, his editor?

hifitommy
01-09-2012, 01:58 PM
he is a newyorker! he will say and do what he wants. tact? i dont THINK so.

meantime, we all need not to be thin skinned.

Rmac58
03-04-2012, 02:11 PM
Stereopile is a high end rag, so to them, yeah $4000 is not expensive.

Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.

As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain. BTW, it has a 20 year transferable warranty.

Happy Camper
03-04-2012, 03:30 PM
Put 50% in your speakers and spend as you can afford. You'll be happy. The elitists will always justify their purchases in cost. I will say my experiences are that about $2-3k per component is a good hi end value point. Speakers are very subjective but about $4-6k is a sweet spot for high end without going off the cliff.

E-Stat
03-04-2012, 03:41 PM
Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.
As another point of reference, I spent $2000 on my Threshold in 1981.


As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain.

It still runs strong having been trouble-free all these years. The only added expense has been proactively replacing the Mallory electrolytics with new ones of the same computer grade series. The closest match ended up beefing up the power supply a bit to 105 joules.

Rmac58
03-04-2012, 04:46 PM
^ Well bought, now at the time, I'm sure there was hesitation.

RoyY51
03-04-2012, 07:15 PM
^ Well bought, now at the time, I'm sure there was hesitation.

What?

Rmac58
03-04-2012, 07:26 PM
^ Meaning that was a bunch of money back then.

Mash
03-05-2012, 09:30 AM
Remember what Deepthroat said? Follow the money.

Futterman amps used to cost as much as $300 (stereo) to $500 (matched monoblocks) in 1960's through 1978.... and Futterman amps up to then had not been reviewed since about 1960....

One way to get you in the door is to challenge you..... You see, you covet, then you buy.

NYAL bought the Futterman patents & rights, raised prices 20X and beyond, advertised in Stereophile and... Gee-whiz, Stereophile gave the NYAL line fantastic reviews. This was pure coincidence.

This is similar to what PG wrote in #19

"I use the term DIY losely to include those small one man cottage industry types who hand build their products in basements and garages not for just a side income but for the sheer joy of their craft. Their products are rarely reviewed in audiophile publications and such individuals are far from the mainstream of high end audio yet their products are of the highest order. ...."

Hyfi
03-05-2012, 10:15 AM
Stereopile is a high end rag, so to them, yeah $4000 is not expensive.

Having said that. I spent $3000 on my Bryston in 2002.

As someone mentioned, amortize that over the number of years it'll last, a bargain. BTW, it has a 20 year transferable warranty.

That was me and you did buy one of the amps I would have imagined.

My Counterpoint is about 17 y/o now and still kicks ass so the fact that it listed for $4500 means it cost about $265 a year for great sound. Like I said, most people spend more than that on ciggies, phone plans, and status cars and watches.

Rmac58
03-05-2012, 10:20 AM
^ Agreed, my amp so far cost $20 a month.
The speakers, now, $11.57 a month.
CD player, $8.33 a month.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
03-05-2012, 02:50 PM
he is a newyorker! he will say and do what he wants. tact? i dont THINK so.

meantime, we all need not to be thin skinned.

I am insulted with this statement. I am a former New Yorker, born and raised there. I am not tact,,,,,tact,,,,,,oh damn may I am.

Never mind, back to your regularly scheduled disagreement.....

hifitommy
03-05-2012, 02:53 PM
Once you buy a real high end component, you quickly get the idea WHY you bought it. Uusing products like these gives you the knowledge that they are truly better than the consumer grade pieces you owned and maybe STILL own and use.

Some seemingly consumer grade products are worthy of the high end moniker such as the NAD 3020/1020 units. To go back to the inferior units you used in the past is usually less than pleasant in absolute terms. Livable, YES, but it leaves you with the yearning for higher end things.

It's hard not to get just a little haughty when you hear some people state that their run of the mill components are just as good as high end. You also try to encourage friends to take the step up. Knowing the prices of affordable high end and also NOT so affordable high end can make you sound like and elitist.

Fremer made the mistake of leaking that out in a public place, his column. Wek have beaten the sufficiently now, don't you think?

hifitommy
03-05-2012, 02:57 PM
WAY cool STT! You can see where this can be endless.

Sir Terrence the Terrible
03-05-2012, 03:14 PM
WAY cool STT! You can see where this can be endless.

It can be endless, because the term "expensive" is so relative. I think $4200 IS a bargain considering I have purchased mono blocks that costs $17,000 a piece for my studio.

Mash
03-05-2012, 03:41 PM
Is this discussion digressing onto a new tact?

Poultrygeist
03-05-2012, 04:25 PM
I keep buying expensive gear only to sell it as my home brew stuff sounds way better. I need not to buy anymore expensive gear but instead concentrate on DIY.

The guys on DIY Audio have owned all the great gear but cast it aside once they discovered they could build far better for far less. There is no magic in ultra high end gear to justify the price. But without it's mystical allure the author of the article wouldn't have an audience to write for.

Back in the early part of this century I sold a Sansui tuner to a guy in Florida. We became internet friends and he sent me pictures of his DIY speakers. I thought he was nuts as he kept saying how his speakers sounded better than commercial speakers selling for thousands. Now I know he was probably telling the truth.

Few if any on this board realize the level that's attainable with DIY speakers. DIY Atlanta would no doubt make some believers.

02audionoob
03-05-2012, 05:27 PM
We all like what we like. It's like the Jolida phono stage that you're modding. Underwood says theirs competes with units that cost $1500. They say the same thing about their modded Music Hall CD player. I have one. I also have a CD player that cost me a grand. And the Music Hall doesn't measure up. To each his own.

Poultrygeist
03-06-2012, 04:07 AM
CD players and digital in general are a mixed bag for me as I'm not able to tell much difference among good players. My $100 modded Playstation One has no business competing with my $1000 Marantz SA8004 but it does on redbook ( not on SACD ). I also prefer it to the expensive tubed top loader I just sold.

With speakers and amps come the huge differences. It's not so much a preference unless you are able to hear the best examples of DIY vs the best commercial offerings. It's like someone saying they prefer solid state amps over single ended triode amps yet they've never heard a SET.

Hyfi
03-06-2012, 08:33 AM
Once you buy a real high end component, you quickly get the idea WHY you bought it. Uusing products like these gives you the knowledge that they are truly better than the consumer grade pieces you owned and maybe STILL own and use.

Some seemingly consumer grade products are worthy of the high end moniker such as the NAD 3020/1020 units. To go back to the inferior units you used in the past is usually less than pleasant in absolute terms. Livable, YES, but it leaves you with the yearning for higher end things.

It's hard not to get just a little haughty when you hear some people state that their run of the mill components are just as good as high end. You also try to encourage friends to take the step up. Knowing the prices of affordable high end and also NOT so affordable high end can make you sound like and elitist.

Fremer made the mistake of leaking that out in a public place, his column. Wek have beaten the sufficiently now, don't you think?

I eluded to all this in post #125

Yeah, my Stratos amp is really good. But when compared to the detail and separation of my Counterpoint, there is really no comparison.

I have been enjoying all the threads over at AK from the multitude of Vintage Receiver collectors who scoff at anything newer or separates in general.

I know the build quality was better then, and the transformers more robust and they didn't mess with RMS and other specs, but I highly doubt that an old Sansui Receiver is going to sound as good as my CP.

frenchmon
03-06-2012, 11:25 AM
I eluded to all this in post #125

Yeah, my Stratos amp is really good. But when compared to the detail and separation of my Counterpoint, there is really no comparison.

I have been enjoying all the threads over at AK from the multitude of Vintage Receiver collectors who scoff at anything newer or separates in general.

I know the build quality was better then, and the transformers more robust and they didn't mess with RMS and other specs, but I highly doubt that an old Sansui Receiver is going to sound as good as my CP.

Just to poke fun Hyfi...I betcha my vinyl rig does?:D

PS I still have that Stratos on my short list, but the comparison makes me have doubts. But considering the price difference I cant have it all in an amp.

Hyfi
03-06-2012, 11:40 AM
Just to poke fun Hyfi...I betcha my vinyl rig does?:D

PS I still have that Stratos on my short list, but the comparison makes me have doubts. But considering the price difference I cant have it all in an amp.

For the money, the Stratos is actually the giant killer it was touted to be. The newer ones are even better. But, there is lots of refinement in an amp costing $3500 more when new.

If I did not have the CP fall into lap for next to nothing, the Stratos would always be in the system.

Poultrygeist
03-06-2012, 01:20 PM
I read the posts at AK regarding the glorification of vintage tube gear and shake my head. I've had Dynaco ST70's, HH Scotts, Fisher 500's, Citations, Macintosh gear plus many others in my home for extended listening periods. Yet not one of those hallowed push pull amps of yesteryear IMO can compete with an inexpensive Chinese SET driving efficient speakers.

Rmac58
03-06-2012, 01:59 PM
^ Agreed, my amp so far cost $20 a month.
The speakers, now, $11.57 a month.
CD player, $8.33 a month.

The enjoyment derived from the above, priceless.

AltCode
03-06-2012, 11:03 PM
The enjoyment derived from the above, priceless.
Exactly my thoughts! :eek:

RGA
03-07-2012, 06:26 PM
The Stratos is no giant killer - I kind of hate that term since it implies it beats Giants - yet the same poster will note a more expensive amp that the Stratos doesn't beat.

In almost every case some "relatively" inexpensive component will beat a more expensive component - depends what it is and what the speakers are.

Many speakers work better with lower power low Damping factor amps - a big brute will over control the drivers making them sound brittle and thin and edgy sounding. The amp may sound better on one speaker and terrible on the next.

I directly compare the Stratos to a $30 Sonic Impact 5 watt Class T amp and on the best sounding speakers in the guy's home the Class T amp sounded a lot better. No contest - it killed the Stratos at 100 times the price. However moving them over to the Gershman Acoustics X-1/Sub 1 speakers the Stratos completely destroyed the Sonic T amplifier.

To me Audyssey is a poor man's Bryston - Sounds about the same as Bryston for less money and also has a 20 year warranty (though it's not quite as good when you read the details). The warranty is only transferable once and only if you kept the registration card. Bryston warranties the amp based on the serial number whether you're the first or 200th owner makes no difference. Unless Bryston changed their policy that is.

Rmac58
03-07-2012, 06:42 PM
Exactly my thoughts! :eek:

Great minds think alike! :lol:

Poultrygeist
03-08-2012, 04:57 AM
I get my kicks from great sound on the cheap. For me it's not about how much my gear costs it's about how little it cost. I grew up under depression era parents and other than a house have never financed anything in my life ( not even a car ). Valuing my gear in terms of a monthly payment is unfathomable.

Nothing is worse to me than dropping a few grand on what turns out to be a mistake. But of course one doesn't know it's a mistake unless they someday realize they've been traveling the wrong road where more is better, complex beats simple, and price dictates SQ.

"The biggest confirmation of this is reports from audiophiles who used to have several hundred watts and many thousands of dollars invested in show winning audio gear, but now report that even a good 2 watt SET on efficient speakers has better dynamics and weight which they find simply amazing. If you've ever observed how audiophiles rotate through audio gear during their lifetime you might also find it interesting that the ones who finally land on SET and a simple pair of efficient speakers seldom find anything they like better". - Steve Deckert

Rmac58
03-08-2012, 07:10 AM
The dollar figures listed are to simply put things into perspective. As mentioned, many folks now have cell phone plans, among other monthly costs. So in an attempt to put a dollar figure on musical enjoyment, I posted.

Congrats on not financing anything, well done.

I paid out of pocket, without financing, all of the above equipment.

When buying a home, I didn't have $65,000 laying around.

Hyfi
03-08-2012, 07:59 AM
The dollar figures listed are to simply put things into perspective. As mentioned, many folks now have cell phone plans, among other monthly costs. So in an attempt to put a dollar figure on musical enjoyment, I posted.

Congrats on not financing anything, well done.

I paid out of pocket, without financing, all of the above equipment.

When buying a home, I didn't have $65,000 laying around.

Same here.

The only thing I ever financed and paid interest on was my mortgage, which I paid off in 10 years by sending 5 principle payments per month.

I have bought every car I ever owned with cash and everything else I own. If I don't have the cash to buy it, I don't get it.

I have used delayed payment financing but again, always paid it off in full before interest kicks in.

I am not the best with woodwork and I suck with electronics so I don't have a problem buying new gear and paying others for what they do good. In reality, aside from the repair cost, the Counterpoint amp cost me about $75. I put $200 into it for repair and re-tubing.

If people who have an iPhone, iPad, cable, fios, dish and whatever choose to spend their money on that, it's their choice obviously. I save my money in all those areas so I can buy nice gear when I want to.

02audionoob
03-08-2012, 04:35 PM
I go thrifty, but not cheap, and never finance anything except the house. My integrated had a list price of $4k, but I bought it used. I wrote a check for my car and had to write rather small to get the amount to fit on those little personal checks.

Poultrygeist
03-09-2012, 03:43 AM
I put everything on a charge card and pay it off every month. Rewards points get me two plane tickets yearly anywhere in lower 48. Free is below cheap.

Hyfi
03-09-2012, 03:58 AM
I put everything on a charge card and pay it off every month. Rewards points get me two plane tickets yearly anywhere in lower 48. Free is below cheap.

I should have said the same. I do use a card but only if I can pay it off at the end of the month. I have only paid interest on a card 1 time in 25 years and it was because I transposed a number when paying the bill.

Discover has given me thousands in cash back that is NOT already my own money.